Is Libertarianism Compatible with Orthodox Christianity?

Summary

Jay'sAnalysis Podcast Summary

Episode: Is Libertarianism Compatible with Orthodox Christianity?
Host: Jay Dyer
Date: March 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Jay'sAnalysis explores the complex question: Is Libertarianism, especially in its anarcho-capitalist and voluntarist forms, compatible with Orthodox Christianity? Jay Dyer, accompanied by Father Deacon Ananias and a range of listeners, delves into the theological, historical, and practical differences between classical Christian social teaching and modern libertarian political philosophy. The conversation also touches on related theological issues, apologetics, and the lived experience of Orthodox Christians, making it a wide-ranging and thought-provoking discussion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Libertarianism vs. Orthodox Christianity

Main Query:
A long-time libertarian and Orthodox inquirer asks whether the anti-statist tenets of libertarianism can mesh with Orthodox Christian views on authority and the state.

• The inquirer frames libertarianism as a logical reaction to modern state abuses (war, central banking, forced integration) and sees reinforced property rights as a remedy.
• He’s influenced by Jay’s work on Orthodoxy but uncertain about Jay's critique of libertarianism.
  [01:26 – 02:59]

The Orthodox Perspective on Authority & Hierarchy

• Father Deacon Ananias: Emphasizes that Orthodoxy values obedient hierarchy—not blind, but deeply structured obedience, which contrasts with the libertarian stress on voluntarism.
  • “There’s a stress on…a hierarchy and that you make yourself obedient to somebody. Not when you…only agree. …That flies in the face of libertarianism.” (03:07)
• Jay Dyer: Clarifies that Orthodoxy’s view of authority isn’t based solely on physical coercion, but includes moral and spiritual obligations:
  • “Within the Church…Orthodoxy would maintain that you’re bound legally by secular, even legal authorities whether you agree to it or not.” (04:01–04:12)

The Classical Christian Teaching on State and Church

• Jay Dyer: Lays out the historical model:

  • “The state has a duty to obey God and to enact Christian principles. That’s the tradition of the Church.” (04:45)
  • Orthodox tradition holds monarchy as the only sanctioned form of government in theory, with the state having God-given coercive rights:
    • “The only in theory sanctioned form of government is monarchy. …The state has the right, the God given right to coerce you and force you against your will. …Totally incompatible with libertarianism.” — Father Deacon Ananias (04:57)

• Libertarianism, with its emphasis on non-coercion and voluntarism, is fundamentally at odds with these principles.

• Jay notes Orthodox history is rooted in Christian empires (Byzantine, Russian):

  • “The idea of a Christian state is Christianity. That’s antithetical to classical liberalism out of the Enlightenment.” (06:33)

Notable Quote:

“Thousands of saints…talk about Christian monarchy, none of them talk about democracy…none of them talk about libertarianism. So the mind of the saints, the mind of the Church is not classical liberalism out of the Enlightenment.” — Jay Dyer (06:00–06:22)

Private Property and the Limits of Liberty

• Property rights are rooted in the Ten Commandments, not unique to libertarianism.
• Even private property is subject to limitations in a Christian state; for instance, one cannot use property to promote immoral acts (e.g., no bestiality billboards), and the state retains rights to enforce morality and law.
• “Even your property has limitations on what you can do. And the state has the right to tell you no…The state has the right to enact the death penalty.” (09:07)

In Summary:

• Orthodox Christianity upholds a hierarchical, sacramental society with civic authority answerable to God, and regards monarchism as the ideal.
• Libertarianism’s commitment to voluntarism and anti-coercion is fundamentally incompatible with this vision.

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2. The Problem of Maintaining a Godly State

[09:57–10:45]

• The inquirer worries that states are prone to overstepping their bounds; Jay and Father Deacon acknowledge this risk, noting that while Christian kingdoms have existed and saints have been kings, states can become oppressive.
• In such cases, Christians may face martyrdom or be called to resist unjust authority, always referring back to God as the higher authority:
  • “If the state can go out of its bound and become, you know, rebellious and attempt to be godlike, …that’s when the Christian has the duty to be a martyr.” — Jay Dyer (09:07)

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3. Preemptive Strikes and Christian Just War

[11:15–14:42]

• Father Deacon Ananias discusses the morality of preemptive military action, relating it to debates over aggression in libertarian circles.
  • “A clear case is obviously a preemptive strike if there’s an imminent threat and physical danger.” (12:29)
• Jay Dyer: Questions the logic of preemption, pointing out the danger of justifying endless war:
  • “You would essentially have to do a preemptive strike on any country that’s not aligned with the West because they have the ability to attack the West.” (13:08)
• Father Deacon Ananias: Warns against inconsistency, noting that moving away from clear cases leads into speculative and dangerous territory.

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4. Blessing, Sacrament, and Divine Energies in Orthodoxy

[15:32–21:02]

• New Orthodox Inquirer asks about the meaning of blessing and divine energies.
• Jay Dyer: Explains that blessing is about sanctification and participation in God’s uncreated energies, making sacraments effective means of grace:
  • "When I anoint myself with oil or drink holy water, I'm directly experiencing God's uncreated energies. …Whether or not we experience that is up to ourselves and our own disposition." (17:06–17:40)
• Discussion on the difference between God’s essence (unreachable) and energies (participated in); Orthodox theology emphasizes this distinction for clarity.

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5. Orthodox Teaching vs. Contemporary Protestantism

[31:38–35:47]

• Listeners ask about differences between classical reformation and modern evangelicalism.
• Jay Dyer: Argues that radical reformation theology (Quakers, Anabaptists) now dominates, whereas classical figures like Luther and Calvin were closer to Orthodoxy in certain respects (sacramentalism, liturgy), and that mainline Protestant churches have largely become irrelevant or compromised.
  • "Luther wasn’t an iconoclast. He had at least two sacraments, believed in the real presence…they’re a lot closer…to Orthodoxy than modern evangelicals, for sure." — Father Deacon Ananias (35:10)

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6. On Conversion, Catechism, and the Cost of Orthodoxy

[68:32–72:38]

• Converts and seekers ask why Orthodox catechism is required, and how to guide Protestant spouses into Orthodoxy.
• Jay Dyer: Catechism prepares converts for deep theological, liturgical, and ascetic commitments; it's a safeguard against hasty or insincere conversions.
  • “Because the church has a long history of dealing with…and understanding…It’s not an overnight thing. …It’s better for people to take their time.” (69:03–71:14)
• Father Deacon Ananias: Warns that Orthodoxy is not about comfort or self-help, but the cross and self-denial:
  • “Orthodoxy is not here to give you comfort, sensual and finite comforts. Like, it's here to give you a cross…if you’re in it for ‘I want what I want’…Orthodoxy is not going to make your life pleasurable. It's going to be really difficult.” (71:14)

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7. Other Notable Theological & Apologetic Highlights

The Nature of Sin

• Sin is a privation (lack), not a positive substance—rejecting Gnostic/Manichaean ideas that sin is an ontological thing. (37:36–41:49)

Philosophy of Mind and Materialism

• Father Deacon Ananias lays out “zombie” and “Mary in the black and white room” thought experiments to refute philosophical materialism—consciousness and qualia cannot be reduced to the purely physical.
  • "If materialism says…is true in every logically possible world, all I have to do is think about a possible world in which it's not the case." (62:22)

Early Church on Jewish Binitarianism (77:47–78:33)

• Jay and listeners discuss whether apostolic or early Church Fathers reference Jewish binitarian theology; Jay references Philo and Justin Martyr as possible points of intersection but notes lack of direct patristic discussion.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “The mind of the saints, the mind of the Church is not classical liberalism out of the Enlightenment.” — Jay Dyer (06:22)
• “Symphonia is the way the church and ecclesiology works is different than state because they’re two different spheres.” — Father Deacon Ananias (07:37)
• “If the state…become…godlike, that's when the Christian has the duty to be a martyr…” — Jay Dyer (09:07)
• "Orthodoxy is not here to give you…comfort…it's here to give you a cross…The project of Orthodoxy is to deny yourself." — Father Deacon Ananias (71:14)
• “Luther wasn’t an iconoclast…they’re a lot closer to Orthodoxy than…the modern evangelicals, for sure.” — Father Deacon Ananias (35:10)
• “You would essentially have to do a preemptive strike on any country that’s not aligned with the West…” — Jay Dyer (13:08)
• “If that’s possible…your argument that it’s logically impossible is refuted.” — Father Deacon Ananias, on the problem of evil and logical possibility (67:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start | Content Summary | |-----------------------------------------------|------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Orthodox vs. Libertarianism Debate | 01:00 | Initiation of central topic with inquirer | | Orthodox teaching on authority & monarchy | 04:45 | Discussion of the Church’s monarchy tradition and state coercion | | Property rights and Christian limits | 09:07 | Limits of property rights; state authority | | Maintaining a godly state | 09:57 | Challenges of keeping state within bounds | | Preemptive strikes & just war | 11:15 | Morality of preemptive military action | | Blessing, sacrament, and divine energies | 15:32 | Orthodox understanding of sacrament and experience of divine energies | | Differences: Classical vs. modern Protestantism| 31:38 | How evangelicalism drifted from Reformation traditions | | Catechism and conversion advice | 68:32 | How/why catechesis is required; tough truths on joining Orthodoxy | | Nature of sin: substance or privation | 37:36 | Refuting Gnostic/Manichaean view of sin in Orthodox theology | | Philosophical arguments vs. materialism | 60:11 | Explaining “zombie” & “Mary” arguments against reductionism | | Early Church and binitarianism | 77:47 | Addressing early Christian engagement with Jewish forms of binitarianism |

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Overall Tone & Style

The tone is robust, straightforward, and sometimes combative, with Jay and Father Deacon offering clear, challenging replies to difficult questions. The conversations are often deep, and listeners' questions are treated with seriousness; a few moments of humor and camaraderie are sprinkled throughout.

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Summary for New Listeners

If you’re interested in how Orthodox Christianity historically and theologically relates to libertarian ideas, especially the question of state power, authority, and voluntarism, this episode provides a pointed critique of libertarianism through the lens of Orthodox social teaching. It’s also a helpful episode for seekers and converts navigating the differences in theology, practice, and community between Orthodoxy and other Christian traditions.

For further exploration, see the resources and debates referenced by Jay throughout the episode (e.g., the Russian Church's 2000 document on Church and State, debates with Adam Kokesh, etc.).

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Note: Advertisements, intros, and outros have been omitted for focus on content.

Transcript

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[Jay Dyer]

All right. Welcome to another open chat. Hopefully it will work. As I'm on the road, it's always a toss up. You never know. But we'll give it a shot.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Hey, how's it going? I was supposed to speak earlier on my personal account and then I don't know what happened. It's like I got banned or something.

[Jay Dyer]

But I didn't ban you, dude.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

That was, it was really weird. I wasn't able to access.

[Jay Dyer]

I asked you multiple times to talk to the door.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

My bad about that. My, my headphones must have been glitching.

[Supporter/Interjector]

But.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

So I want to first of all say that I'm a huge fan of the stuff you've done exposing like Hollywood occultism. And you've been an influence on me as far as like orthodoxy goes. My girlfriend and I've been attending Orthodox churches when we can for the last several months. So definitely a big fan of you in that regard. What? I've never, I don't fully. I've been a like an advocate for libertarianism for quite a long time now. I, you know, I've seen the last 20 or so years of like socialism and war and central banking and forced integration and all this horrible stuff and seems to come from the state and it's. I've always seemed, or I've always felt that libertarianism or anarcho capitalism or whatever you want to call it would be a pretty, you know, logical response to all that stuff like reinforcing property rights and whatnot. What is. I don't fully understand where you're coming from when you criticize libertarianism, maybe you can.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Oh, I have a question for you. Are you. Are you Orthodox? First of all, I just was curious.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

I have not converted yet. I'm planning on doing so. My. There's a lot going on in my personal life right at the moment, so I'm in. I talked to my priest on a weekly basis, and he's. He's. I. I had to move to a town. It's a long story, but I'm. I'm getting there.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, so you're. Are you inquiring or are you a catechumen?

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

I am not a catechumen yet. I guess. I guess you would say I'm inquiring, but I was.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, gotcha. Got.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Very recently, my priest has very recently been urging me to become a catechumen. And it's definitely, like, something I. I really want to do.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Well, I just. I'll add this because I think it's just generally a correct Christian principle. And cleave, you'll remember that this came up when we were talking last with Father Stephen DeYoung about obedience. And so clearly in Orthodoxy, there's a stress on. And it's not blind obedience. Right. But the notion of kind of a hierarchy and that you make yourself obedient to somebody. Not when you. I'm only obedient when I agree. And I was thinking about that. I'm like, well, that's really interesting, because that flies in the face of libertarianism.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

No, it doesn't.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Based on voluntarism.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

That's wrong.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

So libertarianism is.

[Jay Dyer]

How is that wrong?

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Libertarianism is fine with hierarchy if the hierarchy is not coercive.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, again, that's missing the point that he's not talking about. He's not talking about physical coercion. He's talking about within the Church,

[Father Deacon Ananias]

for example, Orthodoxy.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Orthodoxy would maintain that you're bound legally by secular, even legal authorities whether you agree to it or not.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

So that's interesting. And that's not something that I've delved into deep. Into too deeply myself. I have asked my priest the question of, like, well, how does. What does. What does Orthodoxy have to say about this? Like, the role of the state or whatever? And he didn't really. He gave me an answer that was more like, oh, well, like, we don't endorse politicians at this church. I think he kind of misunderstood my question. But, oh, there's.

[Jay Dyer]

There is a tradition. So the role of church and state is a. A classical Christian Teaching that the state has a duty to obey God and to enact Christian principles. That's the tradition of the Church.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Okay, so.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

And there's a good document I'd recommend. It was a 2000, it's from the, the Russian church. A 2000. It was the year of jubilee on relations of church and state, where it kind of defines these things and it admits that we live in a fallen world. There's no kind of perfect in practice form of government, but it does say that the only in theory sanctioned form of government is monarchy. And in principle, absolutely, the state has the right, the God given right to coerce you and force you against your will. And so I was just thinking about him, like it's just totally incompatible with libertarianism.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

So what was that document called? You said it was on relations of Church and state. Who was that by?

[Jay Dyer]

The Russian Church. Yeah, Mozpat. Go to Mozpatu. Russian Church Statement on Christian Government and Nationalism. It's just restating kind of the classical view. But the Church has always had a coronation service, which is a quasi sacramental service for the anointing of a king. So there's thousands of saints that are monarchists, thousands of saints that have been under monarchies. They talk about Christian monarchy, none of them talk about democracy, none of them talk about libertarianism. So the mind of the saints, the mind of the Church is not classical liberalism out of the Enlightenment.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Okay, so you're saying, you're basically saying that the Church advocates for monarchism. That's just not something that I'm that aware of. And it's something I certainly need to do more research on my own into.

[Jay Dyer]

So I'll just. Our history of the Church is the imperium, the Byzantine imperium. So from Constantine all the way up to, you know, 1493, 92, 93 with the fall of Constantinople and then even after that, the Russian state has, you know, there's a Christian state. So the, the idea of a Christian state is Christianity. That's antithetical to classical liberalism out of the Enlightenment. So but the stuff that you mentioned is like that's not really essentially libertarianism. Right. Private property. I mean, that's based on the Ten Commandments, you know. But the question of whether the state has a role in one's life and whether God providentially established the state. Well, in Romans 13, Paul says that Nero has the sword. He is a diakonos. Even if he doesn't act right, he is still the authority.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Are you saying that libertarianism doesn't advocate for property rights, Private property rights.

[Jay Dyer]

No, we're saying, oh, how could you get anything like that from what I said?

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

I thought maybe I misheard you. I thought you said.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Because you were like, that's not the defining, simply the defining feature.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, so that's not what property.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Private property rights. It's based in the Ten Commandments is what Jay was saying. So you can't simply define libertarianism is in terms of private property. And that's why I said libertarianism is committed to volunteerism. And volunteerism is rejected by orthodoxy. Now in Pratt, in the church, there's volunteerism. Right. Like, but that's what we call symphonia is the way the church and ecclesiology works is different than state because they're two different spheres. But the church ordains ideally, you know, the, the king or the emperor, and that the politicians are informed in terms of virtue and their spiritual life by the church. But the way that the state can actually coerce it, like, so volunteerism doesn't exist in an orthodox state because the state has the right to coerce you to do anything by virtue of the law in the church practice, priests wouldn't do that.

[Supporter/Interjector]

Right.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

They, they have a prescriptive, much like a doctor. It's like we prescribe that you do this, but you're free to be wrong and you're free to hurt yourself. Like, we just recommend that you don't. So there's a type of kind of volunteerism in the way of kind of praxis in the church, but in terms of state relations. Absolutely. The orthodox church believes the state and statesmen have the right to coerce you. And by, by law and power.

[Jay Dyer]

This often comes up. If you look at the first debate I did 10 years ago, it was with Adam Kokash, the libertarian dude. Okay, well, yeah, we've go check out our debate from 10 years. One thing, that one thing I think is a good example of this is like, you don't have the right in a Christian state to erect giant billboards of bestiality on your property because it's your property. So even your property has limitations on what you can do. And the state has the right to tell you no state has the right to enact the death penalty. All these things are rights that the state has. Now the state can go out of its bound and become, you know, rebellious and become attempt to be godlike, but that's when the Christian has the duty to be a martyr and the state has a duty to higher authority who's to God. So.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Well, I'm glad you said that because my next question was going to be like, how do you maintain a state that is acting godly? Like, it seems to me that the state is very prone to outgrowing the bounds that it was set for.

[Jay Dyer]

And it'll always, that's always the temptation for the state. But there's also countless Christian kings and, and saints in the history of the church who have had and maintain Christian kingdoms. So it has happened. But also you're right that there's times where the state goes outside the bounds of its own authority and for example, tries to control the church. Right. American deep state right now is trying to control the orthodox, the Catholic Church during the Cold War. So this happens all the time. So this is absolutely true.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Right? Right. Okay. Well, this has been very eye openening for me, this short interaction. I don't want to take up too much time and sorry about.

[Jay Dyer]

Great question.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

My account was acting up.

[Jay Dyer]

If you look up, I've got a lot of videos critiquing, you know, sort of the basic libertarian type ideas from this perspective going back about 10 years. But great questions. Appreciate that. Father Deacon, you didn't say much on the preemptive strikes topic, did you? Did you not want to opine on that? Or is it too, is that too hairy of a topic for clergy? Or what do you think about that? I just don't think Marco Rubio is a those reliable

[Father Deacon Ananias]

and it's kind of similar to, it's kind of similar to the libertarian kind of arguments about like, well, what constitutes, you know, aggression and stuff like that.

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[Father Deacon Ananias]

We can start with the clear cases and then move. It's going to get into, you know, as you move farther away from the clear cases, it gets muddied and there will obviously be positions where I'm like, I don't know. But the clear case is obviously a pre exemptive strike is if there's an imminent threat and physical danger.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, but, but the, but if, if, but you see, he said that, he said that should have happened 50 years ago. Preemptive strikes. But I'm thinking, well, wait a minute. If that's the basis for why you would do a preemptive strike is their capabilities to attack the west, then you would essentially have to do a preemptive strike on any country that's not aligned with the west because they have the ability to attack the West.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Yeah, and that's, I've made that argument too, where, you know, there are some boomers, like Iran's the greatest threat to America. They're probably killing babies with gas. Right. Like all this kind of stuff. I'm like, well, first of all, make the argument without lying.

[Supporter/Interjector]

Right.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

I'm not saying they're a great nation, but I brought up that point too. Then why not the other nation? Like, like there's something not being truthful.

[Supporter/Interjector]

Right.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

If, like, if that justifies, and I'm not even against in principle, well, then

[Jay Dyer]

we would have to do preemptive strikes on Russia. We'd have to do preemptive strikes on North Korea, China. Every country would have to have preemptive strikes.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Yeah. And it's like, well, no, no, you can't do that. So it just, there's ways to show like somebody's kind of inconsistency with. But I mean, first and foremost, if it really is an imminent danger, but also, you know, there's probably, you know, know, threats ideologically. I think maybe in certain situations that might even address. Even if somebody's not capable of having a physical threat but could get to that point, maybe. Yeah, like maybe that would be justified. But you see what I mean, it gets, it gets more fuzzy the further you go out. And I feel less confident and being

[Jay Dyer]

like, well, that's, I mean, well, wouldn't the Roman Catholic, wouldn't the Roman Catholic Church be a greater im. Immediate threat because it's behind all of the millions of undocum documented illegals coming in, even more so than Israel. So I guess we're supposed to like preemptively strike the Vatican or what?

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Yeah. See what the problem is? Yeah, yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

It's just like, really look to your level stuff. And how do you determine, like, you're saying, like, what the most dangerous, imminent threat is? Because, I mean, yeah, perhaps an ICBM if. If it hit the right target. But at the same time, it's like, well, what's 30, 40, 50 million illegals coming into the country? I mean, how do you. It's. It's hard to determine, you see, which of those is, quote, worse. Right. Miles, what's up? Hello. Yo, what's up?

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Hey, how's it going? I'm baptized Eastern Orthodox, and I'm trying to learn more about it. So just a disclaimer. I might be asking some very, very basic and elementary questions. Yeah. If it's too basic, just let me know. And I can maybe go to somewhere

[Jay Dyer]

that you can probably. Everybody in here is a basic.

[UK Listener with Question]

All right.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

I wanted to ask, like, when. When a priest blesses, let's say, the anaphora, or I take, you know, holy water, or I bless the house. What is it? What is happening? What does a blessing mean if I get blessed by a bishop? What is blessing?

[Jay Dyer]

I think it's just supposed to signify, sanctifying, setting apart for God's service and also hopefully, a participation in the divine energies. Because we think that all of these sacramental realities, whether they're icons or holy water or, you know, being anointed with oil, you know, we are looking towards and praying to be participating in some measure of divine grace, which is the uncreated energies.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Okay, so divine grace is the uncreated energies.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

What's a. I only understand the uncreated energies at a very introductory level. What does it mean if I have, like, are the uncreated energies now in the holy water? Is that what that means?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, actually, in the baptism rite, the priest prays and puts the cross in the water and asks that God's uncreated energies come down into the font. So just like in Christ himself, you have, for example, in the Incarnation, a joining of the human nature and the divine nature. There's a synergy there. So likewise, the same idea with the sacraments is that there's a joining of the uncreated power of God to the created elements of bread, wine, water, etc. So that's the idea. So there's a synergy a.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Both.

[Jay Dyer]

And in this. In these sacraments.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Okay. And in that way, when I anoint myself with oil or drink holy water, I'm directly experiencing God's uncreated energies.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's what we're praying for. Whether or not we experience that is actually up to ourselves on our own disposition. So God's energies are actually everywhere present. And were we to be in the right disposition and state of repentance, we would experience them. So really that's up to us on our side of, you know, human action and repentance as to what we, what we get out of these rituals and liturgies.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Oh, okay. So the same, the same holy water could be, I don't know, edifying for me, let's say if I'm in a state of repentance and belief but does absolutely nothing to an atheist, for example.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, or it could actually drive them crazy. If they're demonically possessed, they could actually hate it. So yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Oh wow.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Okay. And so let's say I am in a state of repentance and belief and I have this holy water. What happens to me? What actually changes?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the church fathers describe the process of grace as a never ending upward spiral into God. So basically, the Bible speaks in a kind of a mysterious way that we partake of God in greater and greater measures, even though God cannot be apportioned by measure. So this is kind of what's called an antinomical statement. It's a statement that appears to be a contradiction, but it's not because we're speaking about something that's above the laws of logic. So even though God can't be contained, he still willed to become contained in the womb of the virgin. Even though God can't be apportioned out by measurement, he willed to be divided by measure amongst his saints. So Paul talks about in the eschaton, greater and greater degrees of deification. And so there's a mystery involved in this. And the mystery is that you can never get full of God's grace. You will always be infinitely moving into God's grace.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Ah, okay, that makes sense. So, okay, the, the definition that I understand of uncreated energies is like the word energy is God's actions. Is that correct?

[Jay Dyer]

It's God's actions, it's God's mind, It's, excuse me, this, God' divine ideas that are called the logi. It's God's attributes, it's God's operations. All of those things are at times called energies or works or operations. So the word itself means work, energia, a work. But in the New Testament, multiple things are ascribed as works. Sometimes they're called God's powers, plural. And then when the Western church sometimes they say, you know, the attributes of God, for us, that's the same thing as the divine energy. So when Jesus says, for example, John 17, that he came to give us a share in the glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world, uncreated glory is uncreated, grace is uncreated, light is uncreated, love, etc.

[Supporter/Interjector]

Etc.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Okay, and sorry, how do we define attributes like God's attributes? Is it like glory, light, love? Are those attributes?

[Jay Dyer]

Sure, yeah. I'm just saying the Western church tends to talk about the divine attributes. God has the attribute of omniscience, omnipresence, love, justice, etc. And all I'm saying is that when the orthodox church says energies, they're referring to the same thing that they mean. But our theology is a little more precise because it's also God's creative actions and powers that are energies as well.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Okay, okay. Because my confusion was I originally thought energies meant actions. And when you say that his uncreated energies are in like the holy water, the oil, I think, how are someone's actions in a thing?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, it is that if you look at letter 234, Basil says God's essence is unknown, but the divine energies or operations come down to us. And so what comes down to us is his love, his foreknowledge, his providence, his power, His mercy, etc. So it's referring to the same stuff. So for example, God is omnipresent. Omnipresence is a divine energy for us.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Oh, wow. Okay. That's new to me.

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[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Okay. I think I had just one more question. Oh. And it just slipped my mind. Oh, okay. So the oil is blessed by the priest when we anoint ourselves water, you know, the house. But when we. I don't know if this is an orthodox thing. At least I've been doing it. You know, you kind of pray before a meal, ask the Lord to bless the food and drink servant. So can anybody bless? Because from what I understand, it's always the priests that are blessing things. But I'm now blessing.

[Jay Dyer]

Now you're the priest of your household, right? So, yes, you, you can pray and bless the food. However, if a priest is present, you defer to the higher authority and the priest blesses the food just like the priest defers to the bishop, but the bishop's around.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Oh, wow.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Okay. Wow.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

All right.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Now. Okay. I'm the priest of the household. Do you mean like, as virtue of being a man or like a man of the household? Oh, okay, okay, okay. So if I'm in like the presence of my wife, I should be the one asking.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. St. John Chrysostom says that the household is a little church, so. Yes. Great.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Wow.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Okay. Hey, Jay, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[Jay Dyer]

Those are great questions. I appreciate the. Thank you, Miles.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Yeah, take care.

[Jay Dyer]

Much appreciate it. Aiden, I'm you.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

Hello, can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Jay? Aiden? And then Jay. Yeah, what's up?

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

I've. I had a little bit of a question about the, like, Iran more and a little bit to do with the elites, if that's all right.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

So, uh, like, I know, but if I'm correct, both are, of course, the right wing. You had like the heavy Zionist, uh, fund by Israel and the Rothschilds. Uh, like, is the left the same way, would you say?

[Jay Dyer]

What do you mean?

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

Like, is it like the same elites, you would say behind the left, ultimately,

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, for example, left socialism that supports Palestinians. I mean, they might have a difference on the issue of Israel itself, but in the big picture, they're all still pretty much under the aegis and the banner of globalization. So there's a little bit of disagreement, but in the long term, no, it's just a disagreement over whether, you know, there will be an Israeli priority to the new world order, or will there be some sort of just international socialist, United nations style technocracy.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

So just like two different sides of the puzzle.

[Jay Dyer]

I would say two factions of internationalism or two factions of how they would like to see the future, but there's also overlap. There's also overlap because all the early Zionists were all socialists. So, yeah, I think socialism, you know, is always kind of bound up with a lot of Jewish worldview ideology in terms of its origins and ethos. I mean, it's not totally bound up with that because you could find it in Plato. A lot of modern socialism, Marxism, Communism, obviously is oftentimes tied with, you know, Jewish type movements, Bolsheviks, et cetera, as well as utopian socialism coming out of Moses Hess, the forefather of modern Zionism. So those things overlap. But you might have some internationalists who don't even think there should be a nation state. They don't care if there's a nation state of Israel. Whereas others think that Israel itself could be the center of the future world government. Many of the Zionist writers wrote that way. Josiah, what's up, dog?

[New Convert/Seeker]

Can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

What's up, man?

[New Convert/Seeker]

Hey, man, I was just asking. So my wife and I, she went to her first divine liturgy this past Sunday.

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Okay.

[New Convert/Seeker]

I've been this. Probably my fourth time this week. So she is, you know, we're used to a Pentecostal type environment, charismatic. And what is the easiest way to. I mean, I've heard not to even really even try to debate her, you know, but just the Mary stuff and the saints.

[Jay Dyer]

Hold on.

[New Convert/Seeker]

Yeah, sorry if I sound out of breath. I'm at the gym, so.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, go ahead, repeat your question. I'm sorry.

[New Convert/Seeker]

So, yeah, just what would your advice be on guiding her into the what seems to be very weird environment of liturgy and saints and all that? I guess that's the question.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, I guess that really just depends on how interested in the theology she is. Or is she just kind of looking for community? A lot of times women and wives and girlfriends aren't that interested in the theology. They're more interested in meeting nice people, so. Or is she interested in theology and she wants to know why we do what we do? It just depends on who she is and how she operates.

[New Convert/Seeker]

Yeah, I would say I'm the one that's more interested in the theology, but at the same time, I feel like that door is popping open here, here and there.

[Jay Dyer]

When you could explain that. You know, like when I went on that podcast with that evangelical dude a couple days ago that he just it yesterday, I mean, he was asking very similar questions, kind of coming from a evangelical, you know, do it yourself background. And it's like, well, do we ever think about how did Jesus himself worship the Father? Well, he went to the Temple and to the synagogue. And he worshiped in an ordered liturgical way. They didn't worship like Charismatics and Pentecostals do, with hooting and hollering and flopping around and barking and yapping, laughing. None of that, none of that is the way that God laid down worship all the way back to the very beginning. So even Abraham, you know, Abraham built an altar and called upon God. So there's always been an altar and liturgical worship for the God of the Bible. And if you don't have that, then you've got something else. And you know, worship, if you read Leviticus 10 and 11 is very important to God. And if the New Testament doesn't give us a liturgical worship service, then why would he leave us kind of hanging? Why would, why is it all up in the air? Why do we have to just figure it out? Like, wouldn't there be a pattern of worship laid down? And I think if you start asking those kinds of questions, you know, that kind of. When I was Protestant, those kinds of questions began to click with me because I was like, well, if I believe in solus cryptura, doesn't it seem like God would have laid down the specific? Like there would be a new test, you know, a letter from Paul about how to do the liturgy or something. But you don't have that. So there's a reliance on the history and the tradition of the church. But also, you know, when it comes to speaking in tongues, I mean, in the New Testament, that's always languages. It's never gibberish, it's never a so called angel language. Told you.

[New Convert/Seeker]

Yeah, she, yeah, sorry. She asked me about that specifically. And when I told her Orthodox church believe the way you were talking about that, she was like, thank God. Because she always thought, you know.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, it sounds like she's on the right path. I mean, I remember at one time I thought that Paul was saying there's a secret prayer language that you say that's gibberish. But then I realized right when he says that, he's actually just using rhetoric. He's saying, even if I speak with the tongue of men and angels, then if I don't have love, it's worthless. He's not saying there's actually a secret angel language that you can learn by yapping and then some other Pentecostal pastor stands next to you and quote, translates it. It's just silly. But great, great question. Fda, did you want to comment on Pentecostal stuff also? I don't know if you guys saw the stream. I just did. Tell your wife to watch Testament of Ann Lee. I've been telling people, all of you with Pentecostal charismatic friends, tell your Tell them to watch that movie and then after they watch the movie, say so. Don't you think this is kind of

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[Jay Dyer]

Crazy. It's like, oh yeah, well that's what you guys.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

I was going to add that I think was the, those questions were the start of me, you know, 20 years ago, even 25, 30 years ago, moving into Orthodoxy because having grown up in Calvary chapels that have kind of depending on what Calvary Chapel is, has kind of more charismatic flares in different places. But it rubbed me the wrong way. And I remember asking questions, liturgical questions, even at 18 years old, can you just worship however you want? Is there a standard? And that eventually, you know, many, many, many years later led me to Orthodoxy.

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely. Questions and answers. What's up? Go ahead. Hey Jay, thanks for taking me.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

I just have a question.

[Jay Dyer]

I grew up Protestant and I've heard

[Father Deacon Ananias]

you talk about classical Protestantism, specifically, you

[Jay Dyer]

know, Luther and other major figures of

[Father Deacon Ananias]

the Reformation and the difference of what they think or thought about certain topics

[Jay Dyer]

versus what many Protestants today hold to

[Father Deacon Ananias]

or are against that are Orthodox or Catholic doctrines. I was wondering if you could just

[Jay Dyer]

give me a couple of those that you feel are the most significant or, or impactful, I guess. Say it really quick again. What was the first? What's the difference between modern reform or modern evangelicals and classical Reformation guys?

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Yes.

[Listener Asking about C.S. Lewis]

Yeah, that's pretty good summary Well, I

[Jay Dyer]

did the last stream that I did for members on this very topic, which was that basically my thesis is that the radical Reformation is what ended up winning out most of the magisterial reformers and what we know of as the classical Reformation guys, their churches and their theology has been pretty much died out. And what you see in a lot of these evangelical churches, non denominational mega churches, is really no different than the overall ethos of the radical Reformation people. Because again, go watch Testament. Van Lee, she believes that there's an inner guiding light. It's telling her what to do. The scriptures don't matter that much. All that matters is her personal relationship with Jesus. She's got to, she's going to be a pacifist, she's going to try to set up an earthly commune. I mean, all of the ridiculous teachings of evangelicalism and charismaticism are actually what the Radical Reformation taught. And by radical Reformation we mean people like George Fox, the Quakers, the Anabaptists, the Shakers.

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

That's the proto Pentecostals and charismatics and evangelicals today. If you look at the mainline reformers and their churches, like they're all dying and dead and all, they're all gay churches. Right. So you have the PC usa, mainline Presbyterians, you have the Lutheran Anglicans, the mainline Anglicans, mainline Lutherans, those are all dying out and they're all ordaining, you know, trans bishops and all nonsense.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

So yeah, the Archbishop of Canterbury is

[Jay Dyer]

like a woman now. Yeah, that just happened two days ago. But you know what, everybody's laughing about that. But actually they already had a woman head of the church for the last hundred years. The Queen was the head of the church. So they already had a female head of the church anyway. No, it's true. That's, that's true. But. Okay, well thank you very much. I think the big difference is that even the product, the mainline evangelicals, which are the majority now I guess nowadays of Protestants, I'm guessing they don't care about really the so called classical Reformation doctrines except for something like, you know, some watered down idea of faith alone or some watered down idea of. I just follow my Bible, which is some version of Sola scriptura. Right. So I think.

[Bleacher Report Announcer]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

I think that's where evangelicalism is today. Okay, thank you very much. Yeah. Which is interesting because it's pretty far removed from Lutheran. Calvin. Right. I mean Luther and Calvin. You could perhaps make the argument that they maybe Luther more so than Calvin. Like they're more close to orthodox and Catholicism than they are to the radical reformers in certain respects. Right. Father Deacon, did you have anything on Reformation teaching and today's evangelicals?

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Well, I mean, Luther wasn't an iconoclast. He had at least two sacraments believed in the real presence. The old Lutheran liturgies are much higher liturgically. It's, you know, modern Lutherans today, unless you go to Germany or something like that. But they're all gay. The higher liturgical kind of Lutherans are all woke and stuff. But, yeah, they're a lot closer than two to orthodoxy than, you know, the Lutherans, than modern evangelicals, for sure.

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, we were driving out here the other day. I don't know if you heard me say this on the stream fda, but I was actually. Jamie was like, hey, this is Azusa Street. We were literally on Azusa street where the whole Pentecostal movement.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Yep. Yeah. How crazy is that? Well, it wasn't far from actually where we ate.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. Yeah, I realized that afterwards. Right wing. What's up? You want to unmute? Hey, thanks for having me up. You're killing it with all the collabs, by the way. Great stuff. Well, thank. Guess what. Only about, like, one tenth of it has actually dropped yet, so. Nice. If you're liking the Collabs, there's about 10 more. So, I. I was just wondering your opinion on the new Anglican archbishop and how the ceremony was on the 25th, which is their feastly, Annunciation. There's. There's got to be some compounded underlying heresy or symbolism to why they chose that day. Right? I didn't even know that, and I haven't. All I saw was people making fun of it on Twitter. But my guess would be, well, this is the idea that the feminine is now replacing the masculine. Right. And again, go watch Testament of Ann Lee. Because she says the future of Christianity is that women will replace what the men did. Because she says God is man and God is woman, and if he came the first time as a man, he must return as a woman. And so she taught that she was the second advent of Christ, but as the Holy Spirit. So she's like the incarnation of the Spirit, which she thought was feminine, which is odd because she couldn't read, but it's almost like she's repeating these Talmudic doctrines that God is bisexual and that God has a, you know, female body parts. All this kind of crazy nonsense. My guess would be that it's the same demonic spirit that's influencing the heretics of today. Bird, are you there? Go ahead.

[Philosophy of Mind Expert (Father Deacon)]

My question is about the residue of sin. So like, I've heard people say that sin doesn't have a positive ontology, but it seems like committing sins leaves some sort of, like, it's called like a spore or like something unclean that needs to be washed away.

[Jay Dyer]

And no, that's all not. That's. That's Gnostic, dude. That's Manichean. So I mean, you can have an addiction or a passion that you are tempted with, but there's no such thing as a ontological thing that has to be washed away.

[Philosophy of Mind Expert (Father Deacon)]

So when, like when Noah gets off the ark and he makes atonement for the land, like, it's kind of portrayed in a sense that like this. The sins of the. Or like if you have an orthodox priest come to your house and bless it, is that not to deal with like some sort of effect of the sin that's been committed in that house, or am I.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, you could, you could say that there's the presence of evil spirits, that's what's being cleansed, but there's not residue of evil or something like that that evil doesn't have. Even the, even the demons in their nature are still good, but they use their will and their, their powers constantly for things against God. So it's the actions that are the bad part. It's not something or some, I don't know what you would call it.

[Philosophy of Mind Expert (Father Deacon)]

And you.

[Jay Dyer]

There's no, there's no substance or there's no gak. There's no Nickelodeon gak.

[Philosophy of Mind Expert (Father Deacon)]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm asking. Is there like an ick?

[Jay Dyer]

No, that would be. Not. It would be Manicheanism or Gnosticism and

[Father Deacon Ananias]

you could do incorrect actions. I mean, even if you think like biologically, like with a plant or something, that you put it in bad soil or like you do something that harms a plan or something so that it leaves shrivel up and, and something like that. Obviously you're not creating a substance. You're doing something that's not good for the plant. You. So you can damage things. Demons can damage stuff. We can damage stuff by not, you know, doing the right sorts of things. And that's just, you know, even the biological sphere, but like also morally. But it doesn't mean that there's like there's some evil substance on the plant or in the house or something like that.

[Philosophy of Mind Expert (Father Deacon)]

I'm just wondering from a perspective of like the, the wages of sin, like what you earn through sin is death. Like, where's the transition between the sinful action and. Or am I just taking. Are we talking about spiritual death? Like, I.

[Jay Dyer]

Sometimes death is. Death is the severance of the soul from the body, and it's, you know, the person willing against God and against the good. That's. First is physical death, second is spiritual death. So that's all death is.

[Philosophy of Mind Expert (Father Deacon)]

All right, thank you, guys. I appreciate it.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, no, those are great questions.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

You know, it's funny substance. It's the lack of life. So you can do actions to things that kill something, kill yourself both physically, you know, or biologically and. And spiritually too. But like, yeah, it doesn't mean death's an actually thing that you can trap in a jar and, you know, take it to show and tell in class and stuff like that.

[Jay Dyer]

Or like, you could give somebody death cooties and then they have the death on them like it's cooties. It's funny you say that, fda, because one of the. One of the parts of the discussion with Jesse Lee Peterson was where he started because what he. I don't know if you've ever seen what he does, but he basically asks you all these really bizarre kind of questions that are really ambiguous leading questions because he wants to get you to understand and accept his kind of weird process of what he thinks counseling is spiritual counseling. So he'll ask you all these questions like, do you have your. Your mama sins nature? And I'm like, my what? Do you. You have your mom's sin nature.

[Supporter/Interjector]

She.

[Jay Dyer]

She put that in you. And I'm like, well, there's not a sin nature. Yes, there is, except for your mama. It's like there was no way I was going to ever be able to explain to him that, like. Well, I said, well, sin doesn't have any being. He's like, what you mean being?

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Oh, oh, no. Well, it's interesting because Protestantism is influenced by that kind of Manichean where they. Yeah, you get it from Calvin, too. And like a sin nature, it's like that entails that they're a positive being to see when it's actually a privation.

[Jay Dyer]

Right. But the funny thing about Jesse, Peter Lee Peterson's view of it was that, you know, most people who are Protestants or whatever, they think the sin nature is passed from Adam. Right. He thinks that it's a thing that the mom. Yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Oh, interesting.

[Jay Dyer]

It's really bizarre. Scott, what's up? Just on mute, guys. When you. I'm you when you come up. Yep, sure.

[Geopolitical Commentator]

I think the strikes were justified. I assume you sort of disagree.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, How Would we know what. What justifies them?

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Well, I just mean from like geopolitical facts. I don't mean from an epistemic basis.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, no, I mean morally speaking. Oh, morally.

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Because it is preemptive. But I think you can justify preemptive strikes. Many cases.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. And why would Israel be in the US Be justified in preemptive strikes?

[Geopolitical Commentator]

I don't. I'm not like defending associations with Israel or any of that. I just mean from. Purely from American interest.

[Jay Dyer]

But. Okay, well, what would the American interest be?

[Bleacher Report Announcer]

The Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports right now. The NBA is heating up, March Madness is here, and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment. You've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about, get real time, scores, breaking news and highlights all in one place. Download the Bleachery Report app today so you never miss a moment.

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[Jay Dyer]

So Iran had.

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Well apparently they launched at Diego Garcia. So it means they had ICBMs that were up to 4,000 kilometers, I believe. I don't know the exact part, but that would reach Western Europe as well. If they reached Diego Garcia and they claimed at least to have 200 kg or thereabouts of 60% uranium, which I'm not a nuclear scientist, but they say that's something like 10 or 11 warheads.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but they don't have the ability to launch those. Even if they did, according to to

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Kiriaku, they'd have at least one with at 4000. Like they launched at least one ICBM at 4000 km. I didn't actually watch the Kaku one, so I guess I'm a little uninformed there.

[Jay Dyer]

How are you a ortho bro? OCA supremacist? That doesn't make any sense.

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Sorry.

[Jay Dyer]

How are you? I don't believe you're who you say you are. Ortho bro, Eastern mystic oca.

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Those are just pejoratives I've been called.

[Jay Dyer]

This is a little joke. And is there any precedent for preemptive strikes in the history of like, Christian warfare?

[Geopolitical Commentator]

I. I don't think there is, but I think that, like, logically you can extend, you know, like proportionality to preemptive strikes in some ways. I mean, but. But no there. To answer your question, no, I don't think there's an exact like one to one with like a.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you think that. That Israel puts. Provoke this at all?

[Geopolitical Commentator]

I go back and for. I think there's. Obviously there's more influence with Israel, but I think that in this case it's overlapping interests with the range of the ICBM is the potential range if it. You know, if indeed those could carry into their warhead.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but this was. Well, then why Wasn't this done 20 years ago if that was the case?

[Geopolitical Commentator]

I think it should have probably been done prior, but probably when the Shah was deposed. So like, it should have been done with a better casus belly. But it wasn't. And I think the problem's been festering for. I think it's almost 50 years, 47 years. That's so. I think it's kind of. We had. We had to make a decision at a point in time now where they would gain, according to Marco Rubio, at least immunity from future strikes.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you think Marco Rubio is a reliable source?

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Semi reliable. I think you'd have to.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Why is my. Why is Marco Rubio reliable source?

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Well, I mean, obviously everyone in any given administration has an incentive to lie to you.

[Jay Dyer]

Why is Marco Rubio a reliable source Source?

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Because I think that there would be more leaks if you would like objectly lying about this neutrality or. Sorry, the.

[Jay Dyer]

The immunity blocking of moving. Maddie, what's up? Like I'm gonna listen to some dude who says he's an OCA supremacist. This is the Marco review. Maddie, what's up? That's. That feels like fed energy because he's got a giant confederate flag with Biden and she says he's an OCA supremacist. Maddie, what's up? Fda. Do you have any comments on that? That was odd.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

No, no comment.

[Jay Dyer]

Yep.

[UK Listener with Question]

Was popping my dog. Congratulations on the. On the podcast tour. I've been thoroughly enjoying it over here in the uk. It's been amazing to watch. There's more of a question, I guess, to the father father I heard last week or the week beforehand. Maybe you spoke upon Adrian's video about the whole Hoax with the holy sepulcher and holy fire issues associated with the Jerusalem Patriarchate.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Is that correct? I think it was. We, Jay and I had a. One of these things, these spaces and it was brought up. Somebody was, I didn't know who was doubting it. I didn't know it was agents and I, I made a, A comment about why I think it's legitimate.

[New Convert/Seeker]

Yeah.

[UK Listener with Question]

I watched the video just out of curiosity and I mean, from what I can tell, I don't see. It doesn't seem to me that he's kind of imposing any sort of his personal opinion on the story. But I just wanted to know whether or not it's true or not. I spoke to my spiritual father at church this Sunday to try and get his view upon things. Not because it caused any particular doubt inside me, but I want to understand if there would be any sort of issues or repercussions with people faith wise. It's not necessarily the case that even if, for instance, hypothetically this was proven, that maybe this has been a hoax for maybe not all of time, but maybe a certain period of time that this would jeopardize individuals in the church.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

I don't think, I don't think it's like you said, it's necessary that it's not a dogma or something like that is. There's no good reasons to not believe it. I've never heard all of them have been kind of debunked or just. They're just kind of ad hoc and only the best sort of reasons to believe that it's actually legitimate. But I mean, again, it's not binding on. It's not like you have to believe it to be orthodox. Yeah. It's just, I mean, given the continuity, how far it goes back and I mean, think about the critiques. They're very much like the kind of atheistic critiques of like.

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Of the Resurrection. Like they have that same kind of spirit that.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Yeah.

[UK Listener with Question]

It's.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Oh, we have to like everybody's conspiring and this is. I mean, it just gets ridiculous the amount of, of ad hoc kind of skeptical arguments and reconstruction to explain what obviously seems the case that it's the continuity, the fact that they didn't have lighters or anything back in the day and what it would actually take to fake something like that. It's just. Yeah. It's virtually almost impossible to.

[UK Listener with Question]

Yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Skeptical arguments.

[UK Listener with Question]

Yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. I guess it's one of those things where I guess, like you said, even if for Instance, it was the case. And I'm not certain that what Agent said is true or the arguments. He brings up a true. But if I was to hypothetically agree this wasn't. This wouldn't necessarily put one's faith in jeopardy because it's not contingent upon that, nor is it a dogma. I think this is good for me to clear up. Not that I had any, like, explicit doubts, but it was one of those things what kind of popped up. Whereas I can. It's an interesting point of view, but. Yeah, I appreciate your time, Father. It does reassure me. Jay, when are you coming? When is all the whole streaming, like, podcast thing coming to an end? Or when you're gonna be back at the gaff? Okay, cool.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

All right.

[UK Listener with Question]

I would like to see more cringe core. It's been a bit minute since we had the last one, bro. I've been.

[Dan Morgan]

I've been dying.

[Jay Dyer]

You're right.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

I've been down.

[Jay Dyer]

Right. Hopefully get back in.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Punks.

[Jay Dyer]

What's up? Appreciate it, Phil. What's up? You gotta. I'm. Hey, what's up, Jay? Go ahead. Hey. I was going down the rabbit hole of PSA and the sacrificial system, and I had asked Father Stephen DeYoung, I think it was on Alex. Alex's stream, or maybe Cleave stream, about the implied sacrifice in Genesis 3 with the animal skins and how he clothed them. And he answered, and I never heard this before, and I was wondering if you ever heard it, that the ant. The skins that God clothed Adam and Eve with were him actually changing their body from the pre fall state into the biological skit. It's the biological skin suit that we personally have. May as many church fathers say that. Oh, guys, I didn't. I didn't resident before tonight. I recalled it because I remember you in a debate arguing with that one, like, weird Christian vegan guy. And you use that as a. I guess a point for. As a rebuttal to his, like saying that, you know, we can't eat meat. You use that sack. Or that implies sacrifice is a reason that we. You know, it's fine. I'm not sure. Yeah, but. But whether or not God is clothing us with animal skin suits to have biological bodies or whether he's killing the animal for a meal, covenantal meal. The principle is still the same, that God is not antithetical to the killing of animals.

[Geopolitical Commentator]

Gotcha.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, cool.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Thank you.

[Jay Dyer]

And by the way. Yeah. The church father's not unanimous either on that interpretation. And you'll notice if you read through their commentaries, some of them think that it's a metaphysical change in their being to have kind of a biological component that's like an animal has with these bodies, versus the type of body that they might have had in the Garden of Eden, which was some sort of a higher sort of spiritual body. Aiden. Yeah, go ahead.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

Time one is about, like, Orthodox patristic series. Which would you recommend first? Dimitri Staniloy's Experience of God or Yar Soft Pelicans? A Church and Tradition, I believe. I know you've made a video on the.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, Father St. Eloy's is not patristic. It's his own dogmatic theology. So that's more like reading a pretty advanced systematic theology. But Pelikan's series is really good for getting an overview of the ideological trek of the debates of the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth century. So I would say actually both would complement one another. But if you're new to Orthodoxy, I think Staniloy would be very difficult. So you might want to start with something more like Pomazonsky before Staniloy.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

Okay. Second was on, like, orthodox philosophical. Like philosophical readings of the orthodox influence behind it, if you know what I mean.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, Orthodoxy is not super interested in philosophy, but I mean, there are orthodox philosophers like Tristram Eaglehart or David. Dr. David Bradshaw or Dr. Bo Branson. I mean, those are all modern philosophy professors who are influenced by Orthodox teaching, so I guess I'm not. What do you mean exactly by orthodox philosophy?

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

I mean, like, kind of a less Western view.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, there's no Orthodox Nietzsche, you know, that's walking around. There's not like an Orthodox, you know, Emmanuel Kant or something like that.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

Where would you recommend? Like, I'm a. I'm a current catechumen. Your content has helped me out a lot. But where would you recommend the individual to start?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, if you were interested in philosophy, I would read the Yaroslav Pelican book, Metamorphosis of Natural Theology and the Cappadocians. Yeah, yeah, that's really good.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

Yeah, I saw that. One of your videos. Uh, yeah, I. I've kind of analyzed, like, all your videos and.

[Jay Dyer]

But before you do that, I would actually, now that you kind of ask these questions, I think you would probably do best to start with the Pelican Volume one, because it's really good. And volume two is really good too. I would do one and two. Three is about the Reformation, so it's not that necessary. But 1 and 1 and 2 are really good.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

What all do you cover in your big red book, like the theology book.

[Jay Dyer]

It's just kind of a random collection of apologetic essays over 10 years. So there's a lot of Roman Catholic critiques, papal critiques, created grace critiques, arguments for essence energy, filioquic critiques. And then it gets into more, you know, kind of all over the place, philosophical essays and critiques of the new world order. So it's kind of a broad spectrum.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

Yeah, it's like 700 pages, right?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, it's. It's all that. Yeah. It's basically 10 years of blog posts in one book.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Yeah.

[Catechumen Asking about Orthodox Philosophy]

All right. I appreciate it, Jay. I also want to say I really appreciate your content, man. It's helped. It's helped me convert to Orthodoxy. Like I said, I'm a catechumen.

[Jay Dyer]

Hey, well, that's great. Appreciate it, man. Appreciate you. Great questions. Yeah, those are always great places to start, you know, if you want to start the Church Fathers, I always say, read on the Incarnation by Athanasius, you know, read on the Holy Spirit by Basil. Read five theological orations of great renatiances, Great places to start to get the idea what the patrician teaching is. And also, of course, the post Apostolic Fathers as well, Ignatius and Clementine. Irenaeus. This is open to forum. I have the renowned and esteemed father Dr. Deacon Ananias, the creator of the Orthoboro political movement that is seeking to create a earthly kingdom, much like Ann Lee did amongst the Quakers. Thomas. What's up, man?

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Hey. So I come from a Protestant background. I'm curious, since Protestantism has a big emphasis on proselytizing, I'm curious what the orthodox viewpoint on proselytizing is maybe in

[New Convert/Seeker]

compared to proselytism or just.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, on its face. We. We have been here making thousands of converse for the last eight years on the Orthodox to Orthodoxy on the online. So we definitely believe in proselytizing. Just means making converts, proselytes as a convert in the New Testament, so. But we probably have different ideas, obviously, from what evangelicals think that is. For the Orthodox, it means you become an inquirer, you become a catechumen. That takes, you know, one to three years. Then you join the church. For evangelicals, it's like you go and pray at a service and raise your hands and cry, and Jesus becomes your boyfriend. So we have. We have very different ideas.

[New Convert/Seeker]

Okay.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

All right. Well, thank you. That's all I wanted to know.

[Jay Dyer]

No, that's actually a good question. Josh on mute.

[Listener Asking about C.S. Lewis]

Hey, man, thanks for having me, as always, dude. I saw that recent debate with Tim Pool. That was hilarious.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

But I got a question for you.

[Jay Dyer]

You're welcome.

[Listener Asking about C.S. Lewis]

So me and my kids were reading Chronicles of Narnia, and I ended up watching a C.S. lewis documentary, which is pretty interesting. But there was an aside in there. I was curious if you had insight on this. Give.

[Jay Dyer]

We lost you, Josh. You want to come back? Try again? Go ahead, Jody.

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[Podcast Host]

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan.

[Jay Dyer]

Hey.

[Dan Morgan]

How's it going today?

[Podcast Host]

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

[Dan Morgan]

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

[Podcast Host]

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently. It said 20 billion wonder. 20 million is an insane number.

[Dan Morgan]

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north. Probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

[Podcast Host]

Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident?

[Dan Morgan]

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open or call. Call center is always waiting to take your call. 24, 7, 365.

[Jay Dyer]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

[Dan Morgan]

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

[Jay Dyer]

CS Lewis. Go ahead.

[Listener Asking about C.S. Lewis]

Anyway, supposedly there was a debate he had toward the end of his career in apologetics and maybe the end of his life where he couldn't refute the materialist question or their argument that if truth can't be explained by materialism alone, how could a weight scale, you know, be accurate, that type of an argument? I was just curious what you do about that debate about that line of argumentation and, you know, how you would refute.

[Jay Dyer]

I've never heard this but we might ask Father Deacon. He's got really good arguments against logical arguments against materialism. But I'm not familiar with this since he has Lewis's life. Father Deacon, are you there?

[Philosophy of Mind Expert (Father Deacon)]

Yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

You want to know the, the logical problems?

[Jay Dyer]

I think you would be good at this. Yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

So this comes out of philosophy of mind and what's known as the irreducible consciousness arguments. So in philosophy of mind you had like you have competing schools, obviously you have substance due lists and primarily substance dualists and materialists. Both are like the opposite spectrums philosophically. And there's a whole variety of theories under materialism. And so philosophers, a philosopher and philosophy of mind came up with a series of kind of modal arguments in which like possible worlds or conceivability arguments that refute materialism in which, because the materialist thesis is not simply. It just happens to be just true in this world that everything's physical and empirical and that there are no immaterial properties or entities, but it's, it has a modal strength in every possible world. So the way that you first somebody is saying it's impossible, it's logically impossible that there are any immaterial entities or properties. All you have to do is think of a conceivability argument. Well, I'm conceiving of for example, zombies and which are physically identical to us in every way, but they lack consciousness. There's other arguments too, like Frank Jackson's, what Mary didn't know, that all serve to basically refute materialism. I can think of a world in which your thesis isn't true and therefore materialism is false. That's basically the gist of it. I mean it's more complicated than that. But that's the general kind of structure of those arguments.

[Jay Dyer]

Can you explain why a conceivability argument would work in this case? Because I think most people are going to immediately think, well, just because you can.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Okay, so let me just do the log. The logical possibility of zombies. If materialism is true, then the things that we think of like consciousness, mental states can be epistemologically and ontologically reduced to simply material states, whether that's functionalism or identity theories and things like that. So the fact that I can think about that structurally something identical to me but lacks consciousness means that they're leaving something out and therefore it can't be reduced. Now they'll of course say, well that just wouldn't happen. You would get consciousness. The problem is I'm not speaking about whether it would happen in this world. I didn't contradict myself in thinking that therefore there's, it's not logically true, the materialism, because I've thought a counter example and a possible world. The other one is what Mary doesn't know and she's like a brilliant scientist and she's a genius. She's brought up in a black and white room and she's specialized in optics and color vision, stuff like that. So she knows what it is to be red and so she shouldn't learn any new facts. Let's suppose she learns everything about what red is and then she's released from the room, the black and white room that she grew up in, and she experiences a red rose and she gains a new fact, namely what it's like to experience or have a quality, a qualia, a qualitative experience of red. Okay, if physic, if physicalism, materialism is true, she shouldn't learn anything new because she learned all third person objective facts. Then the response, the response would be well, she wouldn't learn anything. But that's not the problem. The problem is, yeah, but I've thought about a scenario in a logically possible world where she would. And I didn't contradict myself. And if materialism says the materialism is true in every logically possible world, all I have to do is think about a possible world in which it's not the case. So they all have that kind of structure. They are complicated modal arguments and logical possibility arguments are really complicated, but they're really good.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that's great. By the way, did you see by chance in the last few days when we did the review of Nick's debate with Jake, the Muslim metaphysician on the Trinity.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

No, I didn't.

[Jay Dyer]

So you would have liked this because basically what happened was. And thank you for your question, Josh. Nick presented out of analytical philosophy just relative identity as a way to logically show that something can be one and also not one in different ways based on different types of classification. So there's like there's pure relative identity and logic and then there's impure relative identity. So Nick was just arguing at impure relative identity. And the problem is that Jake didn't realize that he strength, the premise of the debate was is the Trinity illogical? Right. So all Nick had to do was show that through relative identity logic, the statements about the Trinity being, you know, one God and three persons are not a contradiction because Jake said they're a contradiction. So when Jake admits that in the, the way that it's formulated. It's not a contradiction. The debate was over. But you would like it because it's similar to what you're arguing. And when what Jake said was, yeah, but the Trinity has all this metaphysics. And the point was that. Yeah, but I don't have to get into the metaphysics because all I have to do is say that something can be three and be one. And it's not a logical contradiction.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Yeah, because if somebody's position is it's a contradiction that it holds across every possible.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

So there's a necessity.

[Jay Dyer]

But you don't have to get into the metaphysics, which I don't have metaphysics.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

That's. That's why people misunderstand. You're absolutely right. The irreducible consciousness arguments, they were like, well, that wouldn't happen. And it's like, well, that's the metaphysics.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

I don't have to actually get into the metaphysics of the universe to actually logically conceive of a situation that negates your position. That's not a logical contradiction. If, if that's possible. You saying it's in. How do you refute. Somebody says it's impossible? Well, you either physically show it empirically or you say it's logically possible. I conceived of it without contradicting myself. And so that. That's what's happening in that debate too. Yeah, exactly. Argument with theodicy too, with the problem of evil. If somebody says it's impossible that an omniscient, omni, benevolent, omnipotent God exists and evil exists, all I have to do is create. I don't have to get into the metaphysics of the universe. All I have to do is it's not impossible, it's possible. And then it throws the burden of proof on them to show how that I'm conceiving. For example, as St. Augustine and then Chitterron points out, isn't it logically posse. He doesn't say it this way, but basically what's going on in the argument. Isn't it logically possible an omniscient, omni, benevolent, omnipotent God could bring. Allow evil if he brings out a greater good by allowing it than if you prevent it? Yes. Then your position's refuted because I just. You said it's impossible. I just showed that there's no logical contradiction. And I don't have to answer why God does it. All I have to show is isn't it logically possible? So your argument that it's logically impossible is refuted Exactly.

[Jay Dyer]

And that's what the whole debate ended up being about. Because once Jake conceded that with like within like 30 minutes of the debate, the debate was over. And then Jake shifted into trying to argue the energies and all this metaphysics. I was like, yeah, but the debate, Jake, if that was the case, you should have made the premise is the Trinity true? But he didn't accept the premise is the Trinity true? He said, is the tr. Is the Trinity logical? And that's where he made a fatal flaw. Just so you gotta mute A.J.

[New Convert/Seeker]

another question. All of the questions that are going in my head. Can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, go ahead.

[New Convert/Seeker]

So another question she had that I, I couldn't totally answer very simply is she was like, why do, why do we need to go through a class to, you know, enter into the Orthodox Church? Another, you know, her, her whole mind frame is coming from a Protestant perspective. You know, what would be a simple answer to give?

[Jay Dyer]

I guess, well, because the Church has a lot of teachings that are from divine revelation. Divine revelation is, you know, partly contained in the Scriptures. But, you know, the Scriptures aren't organized as a book of catechesis. The Bible is a liturgical book. So, you know, it's difficult to just catechize someone or teach them the theology from merely reading the Scriptures. It's not impossible. But that's why the Church has typically had a period of time where you learn the theology of the Church from the creed, which expresses, you know, the essence of the Christian beliefs. And then every catechism usually expounds upon the nice constant politician creed, because that's the basics of our system. So because the church has dogmas, because the church has a, you know, 2000 year history country, it's not like Protestantism where you're just sort of window shopping and you pick a, an outfit or you pick a, you know, a shirt or a hat. Like, you have to learn the totality of the system. Also, it's for your own good because, you know, you want to make sure you're making. Because we take it very seriously. You want to make sure you're making the right decision. So it's not like, you know, willy nilly type, come down to the altar and pray, and then you're in the church. Like, this is a very serious commitment. It's way more serious than what you find in evangelicalism. So you want to know that you learn these things and agree with these things before you sign on to something that, you know, six months down the road. And this is because the church has a long history of dealing with and understanding. You know, a lot of people think, oh yeah, I'm really into this, this really neat, it's really pretty. And then six months later they're like, I don't know if I agree with this. I don't like this idea. Well then maybe it's, you know, maybe it's not the right thing for you because you're not at a position yet where you have the humility to submit to the teaching of the church. So there's a lot of different reasons why it's not an overnight thing. Although there could be situations out of the norm where that happens for most people. It's the wisdom of the church has decided that it's, it's better for people to take their time also. Go ahead, Father.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

I've had inquirers. It's a general problem that maybe we all have about, oh, this is so hard for me. You know, I'm, you know, complaining about different struggles, etc. And I've told people, well, maybe you shouldn't become orthodox because those struggles will get worse. And orthodoxy is not here to give you comfort, sensual and finite comforts. Like it's here to give you a cross because it's only through the cross that we acquire virtues and the resurrection. So I kind of upfront with people, I'm like, I don't know what you think you're getting into, but like the struggles increase and it gets worse and the whole project and prescription of orthodoxy is to deny yourself. So if you're in it for like, I want what I want and you know, I don't, my life's miserable and blah, blah, blah, like orthodoxy is not going to make your life pleasurable. It's going to be really difficult. And so I'm just upfront with people and yeah, it's a different, you know, it's going to require humility and it's not a system of, it's not a system at all. It's like, well, here's just correct doctrine. It's a way of life and it's a cross and it's.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're saying it's not Joel Ovaltine's self help prosperity gospel? Yeah, yeah, go ahead, Anthony.

[Listener Asking about Unitarianism and Proselytizing]

Hey, am I coming through okay?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, sir.

[Listener Asking about Unitarianism and Proselytizing]

Nice. It's really quick. Two questions for Jay and one for Father of the Nice.

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[Podcast Host]

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan.

[Dan Morgan]

Hey, how's it going today?

[Podcast Host]

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

[Dan Morgan]

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

[Podcast Host]

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently. It said 20 billion one. 20 billion is an insane number.

[Dan Morgan]

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

[Podcast Host]

Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan?

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[Podcast Host]

What would I do if I got into an accident?

[Dan Morgan]

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone.

[Jay Dyer]

We are always open.

[Dan Morgan]

Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365.

[New Orthodox Inquirer]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

[Dan Morgan]

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

[Listener Asking about Unitarianism and Proselytizing]

What is in your opinion? J Is there any reason why, like, the more I talk to other Christians outside of the church, I noticed that like Unitarianism is prevalent in the United States, at least in my circles. Is there any reason for that? Since it's not. It's not really that present outside of the states.

[Jay Dyer]

I think there's been a lot of heterodox movements that have been funded that push. This, for example, all the daily wire funding, just as an example, is from these Texas billionaires who go to a Unitarian church. It's like a weird Unitarian Zionist thing. And so they push that through a lot of their outlets. You know, I. I just went on Jesse Lee Peterson's thing the other day and he has his own homemade church where he teaches Unitarianism. You know, a few years ago we were debating this new, new apostolic movement or something that's all Unitarian. It was me and Dr. Bo Branson versus some preacher from this section. So I think there is some kind of push and movement. I don't know all the inner workings, but probably is some funding for this kind of stuff to be, you know, to push sectarian ideas from different. From different systems, different outlets. Probably some Israeli outlets too. So they've always tended to have a hand in Unitarian and Aryan types. Of movements. So that would be my guess. But also I think that as people's IQ declines and I know that it's a spiritual problem, not trying to make it totally iq, but also it is the case that as people get kind of dumber, they have a really hard time in thinking of things in an abstract way or thinking of things that, that aren't simple. Either ors. Well, either God's one or three. Right. If you saw my debate with Captain Tzariok, he could not just like many Muslims, he could not conceive of something being both and it had to be either or. So I think that there's a lot of just low tier, just stupid people combined with subversive money for subversive sectarian ideology and also the Internet.

[Supporter/Interjector]

Right.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

I mean you had Owen Benjamin comes up with his. And he's a great point.

[Jay Dyer]

A lot of made up Internet people, you know.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Yeah. And then they have a following and presence online and more that, you know, information is disseminated among the public and people are dumb and not educated and so they fall for, for those things. Not to mention that they're fanboys of different people. And so I think you get that with just Peterson. You get it with Owen Benjamin because it's the same thing with the black Hebrew Israelites. What's the other group that's the same as the black Hebrew Hebrew is Lights. The Judaizing group. Hebrew Roots. Hebrew Roots, yeah.

[Inquirer about Orthodoxy and Libertarianism]

Thank you.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

I think all of that in part comes from, you know, these people pushing and adopting these things online. It just gets spread. Same with the paganism. So the, the Rabbi Green. Adam Green.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, exactly.

[Listener Asking about Unitarianism and Proselytizing]

Yeah, gotcha. Much better than my guesses. I appreciate that. I'm proselytizing to Aryan Hebrew roots. Friends. Speaking of that and in you guys are much more. Well ready mentioned Bryson.

[Jay Dyer]

Bryson Gray. Remember Bryson Gray is a Aryan eaters.

[Listener Asking about Unitarianism and Proselytizing]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Man.

[Jay Dyer]

What that is.

[Listener Asking about Unitarianism and Proselytizing]

I'm so happy to talk with these guys. It's so cathartic, man.

[New Convert/Seeker]

It's.

[Listener Asking about Unitarianism and Proselytizing]

It's amazing. Is there any mention by the Apostolic Fathers or even the early church? I mean they're less, they're less prone to accept early church fathers. But do the Apostolic Fathers mention any concepts of like the Jewish binatarianism that you guys are aware of or like the ancient.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a really good question. I don't know of a church father that mentions Jewish Terranism, although some people might argue that that influenced Justin Martyr's way that he describes the Father and the Logos because it's kind of like the way Philo describes the two powers of heaven. So that's possibly a reference, but I don't know about early Jewish Venetianism or something like that other than what today's scholars talk about.

[Listener Asking about Unitarianism and Proselytizing]

Gotcha. Okay, I'll make note of that. I appreciate it.

[Jay Dyer]

What's up, Alexander?

[Supporter/Interjector]

Father Deacon, how you doing, sir? As well. I don't know if you noticed this, Jay, but I. I tweeted something out about this a little while ago about how evangelicals view other Christians. And this kind of relates to every Middle war. Every war in the Middle east we've had. But have you ever noticed that evangelicals, they view Americans who are Orthodox in particular, as less American than them, and they simultaneously view Middle Eastern, you know, Arabs who are Orthodox Christians. They view them as, like, ethnically or racially Islamic. That's why they're so cavalier with. Just make it a parking lot, you know, just bomb the place to hell. Even if you bring up to them, well, what about, like, the one 1.5 million Christians in Iran? They just kind of look at you with, you know, eyes placed over.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. John Kiriaki brought it up to me and to Alex Jones when he was on with Alex, because he said that when he taught at Liberty University because he used to teach intelligence courses as well as being a CIA operative, he said that he could never get them to understand that the. The original Christians are out of Syria and Antioch. So the original Christians are actually Arab converts at Syria and Antioch. Right. Because the people. They're first called Christians at Antioch. And he said he could never get these dum dums to understand that that's actual Christianity. It's not, you know, your John Hagee run around on the stage blowing a shofar.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Yeah.

[Supporter/Interjector]

And that's another. Just to point out something you've touched on before, because I think you spoke about this is like, how could we ever have Christian nationalism in America when, you know, the largest Protestant group, that being, you know, the broad group of evangelicalism, they openly don't view Orthodox Christians as Christians. They kind of give lip service to Roman Catholics. But, you know, there's no real coming together with these people, especially when they've just been so intellectually cast, captured through Zionism, they don't even realize it.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, it's like Doug Wilson said the other day, if. If his Christian nationalism comes about, you won't have any icons or images of Mary in public. So. So it's like, yeah, good luck with Christian nationalism with that loser.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

All right, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna play devil's advocate right now, by the way, if you don't know that actually comes from papism, they literally have courts with devil's advocates to argue against canonization of saints.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, I did. If you did.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Okay, suppose, suppose I'm going to push back and say, well, maybe the problem's just the Doug Wilson evangelical. But what if you, if Christian nationalism simply meant that in terms of immigration policies, you don't let non Christians come into the country?

[Supporter/Interjector]

I mean, I, I could see that being a possible, like, olive branch you would extend to them, but as soon as you point out to them that, hey, that means no dual citizens from Israel, that means all non Christians, not just, you know, Muslims, because they obviously evangelicals don't want any Muslims here. But if you say that extends to all non Christians, that includes Jews, then they would just fight you tooth and nail over that and that would be the end of that conversation entirely.

[Jay Dyer]

I got an easy way to shut it down too, because I used to be amongst the Christian reconstruction constructionist camp, which is what Doug Wilson is. And when I was amongst that group, when I was like 19, there was this stupid debate which is so, like, out of touch with reality because you have this little tiny Presbyterian sect and you're within the sect, people are dividing the church and debating over whether or not in the Christian Reconstructionist state, whether or not people who violate the Sabbath would be put to death? Because so, so how are you going to have a Christian nationalism when you have Puritans who believe that if you do something on, on the Sabbath on Sunday, even if you're not a Christian, you got to be put to death? And so this is how idiotic. And this is.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Okay, you see what I'm saying, though, why not just get them to agree to. Does that mean all versions of Christian nationalism would. Wouldn't work? Or like, for example, do you think you get Doug Wilson to admit but like, okay, that's, that's not going to work. DOUG Wilson but you could, generally speaking in terms of immigration, just be like, yeah, this is what we, you know, generally consider Christians. And so they're either given a priority in terms of citizenship and voting, or other religions are not allowed because you do kind of have some of these principles even in early immigration policies that obviously change after 1965. But in terms of who gets priority immigrating into to the United States where obviously Christian, you know, you're certain. And there was like a tier, right, in terms, what country in Europe, obviously Anglo, like from England and stuff. Like that had priority over, you know, Irish and stuff like that. Do you think that that's in my logical possible world argument that I just made logically impossible?

[Supporter/Interjector]

I mean, I, I again, I think that's a solid olive branch to reach out to them. But then I think the other side of this is that, you know, the crazy prods from Doug Wilson to like your, you know, your boomer evangelical, the one thing they all agree on to the, you know, to the death is Zionism. And like I said, they're just so intellectually captured by that. So you have Doug Wilson on one side, but then again, you have all these other evangelicals that are the exact opposite when it comes to Christian nationalism. A lot of them are pushing for like, Vivek to be governor of Ohio and stuff like that. So they're on opposite spectrums of like, things like immigration. As far as, you know, they don't view legalized American citizens, quote unquote, as being part of the problem as well. But the one thing they agree on at the end of the day is Zionist. And that's like the anchor to all of their political ideology. It's kind of crazy to see, but I, I could liken it to when it comes to modern Middle Eastern politics that we're dealing with, with Iran right now and trying to, you know, clean up our government and get people who actually are Christian in government. Zionism to them is like their coveted. You know, it's like we can see it. We obviously know what the problem is. We know it's a scam.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, look, they, they all signed that, that, that agreement, right? James White. I don't, I can't remember if Doug Wilson signed or not, but all those evangelical goobers signed this big giant Zionist agreement. Do you remember that?

[Supporter/Interjector]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

Well, that's why I don't understand the argument. We have that in right now. Like, so I don't understand what the, the difference would be.

[Supporter/Interjector]

Well, again, like, but the problem is, is that with, with if Zionism is your grounding foundational belief structure within all, within the majority of Protestantism, which it is, unfortunately, at the end of the day, you're going to do whatever the Zionists want. And the Zionists do not want a white Christian, you know, homogenous America.

[Father Deacon Ananias]

I see. Yeah, that's a great point. There's the missing premise right there.

[Supporter/Interjector]

Yeah, I mean, look at Bibi Netanyahu. People always forget this because every Trump bottom who is a massive, massive Zionist always overlooks the fact that the largest outspoken person against Trump's Muslim ban. I don't know if you guys remember that was a Muslim ban. That was a Muslim ban. But was the person against it who was allowed us was Bibi Netanyahu. Bibi Netanyahu. You can find, I think it's in Haaretz or it's in the Hill, I can't remember which publication has it. But he came out and said that he was totally against the Muslim ban, that Israel is an open, you know, diverse, egalitarian society and we oppose such practices by the American government.

[Jay Dyer]

But he also said he wanted us to take all of the Muslims from Palestine.

[Supporter/Interjector]

Exactly that. And that's, that's exactly why when he wants to launch a bunch of wars, bomb a bunch of places and then force all the immigrants into America. And at the end of the day, if you're an evangelical and your underlining principle is Zionism, then you're obviously going to be, be like, okay, we're going to put immigration, border security, trying to make our country, you know, more homogenized, safer, cleaner, more Christian or put that on the back burner and do whatever DB tells us to do.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, exactly. And that's why they're stupid ass idiots and that's why they're the, they're the reason why the country's going to collapse

[Supporter/Interjector]

and they don't see it. They're all stuck in this dark, deep pre list. And because they're in pre list, you can even point out to them there's been a couple people and right with media. Well, I've said to them, hey, look up the term pre list because I think you're in it right now and you know, just crickets. They don't understand that they're, you know, captured intellectually and honestly. It's a problem with the heart. They don't get that.

[Jay Dyer]

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