Pt 1 - ALIEN DISCLOSURE, Redeemed Zoomer Replies, Trent Horn, PSA, Gladio,, MEGA PODCAST TOUR!

Summary

Jay'sAnalysis with Jay Dyer – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Pt 1 - ALIEN DISCLOSURE, Redeemed Zoomer Replies, Trent Horn, PSA, Gladio, MEGA PODCAST TOUR!
Date: April 6, 2026
Host: Jay Dyer
Notable Guests/Interlocutors: Father Deacon Ananias (FDA), John (Orthodox interlocutor), Redeem Zoomer (audio response), various call-ins

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Overview of the Episode

This episode of Jay'sAnalysis is a dynamic, wide-ranging podcast tour covering:

• The “alien disclosure” narrative in culture and statecraft
• A long-form reply and breakdown of Protestant apologist Redeem Zoomer’s arguments
• Comments on Trent Horn and issues in Catholic online apologetics
• Critical observations about Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox ecclesiology
• Stories and quips from Jay’s recent podcast tour across the US
• Engagement with live callers on theology, praxis, and cultural commentary
• The consistent running theme: exposing subversive dialectics—whether in religion, geopolitics, or state narratives.

Jay's signature blend of rigorous theological critique, biting humor, and pop culture references is on full display, with extensive interaction between co-hosts and listeners.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Alien Disclosure Psyop & Religious Engineering

Timestamps: 17:10–27:18

• Jay and John discuss the persistent push for “alien” narratives in media and government.
• Jay argues this campaign functions as both a cover for advanced state technology and a tool for social engineering, citing 1960s Brookings Institution recommendations (20:07–22:58).
• Quote [21:28]:
  “How to capitalize and use the alien mythos to rewrite and subvert Christianity, presumably to replace it with some new establishment amenable religious ethos. You know, a religion created for the people.” – Jay Dyer
• The “alien = demons or advanced military tech” Orthodox position is articulated.
• 1990s rave and new religious movement culture, including Von Daniken, Chariots of the Gods, and pop apocalypticism, are linked to the development of these themes.

2. Protestant Apologetics: Redeem Zoomer's Reply

Timestamps: 44:42–54:53, resumed 115:23+

• Jay plays and live-comments on Protestant apologist Redeem Zoomer’s reply to their prior debate.
• Redeem Zoomer credits their exchange with forcing him to grapple with ecclesiology, but still lingers in what Jay calls “mainline Protestant pseudo-communion fictions.”
• Quote [46:53]:
  “Protestants always get nailed by Catholic and Orthodox debaters when they don't have a clear ecclesiology, when they have what I would call libertarian ecclesiology, where anyone can start their own church for any reason.” – Redeem Zoomer
• Jay critiques Redeem’s attempt to root authoritative canon formation in a notional Protestant magisterium, calling it an “ecumenist” fantasy unsupported by historical Protestantism (121:06–134:10).
• The longstanding Protestant focus on Sola Scriptura and the inadequacies of this position regarding ecclesial authority, canon, and unity are dissected.
• The episode repeatedly hits the point that Protestant attempts at “mainline communion” are ad-hoc and not functionally or doctrinally coherent.

3. Protestant–Catholic–Orthodox Polemics: Atonement, Guilt, and Church Authority

Timestamps: 29:43–39:05

• Extended exchange (with call-ins) deconstructs atonement doctrines. Jay exposes misunderstanding by Protestant callers around penal substitution and the ontological status of sin.
• Quote [34:09]:
  “There’s a difference between guilt and the effects. That’s our point.” – Jay Dyer
• FDA and Jay reinforce the Orthodox view: sin is a privation and not ontologically transmitted; Mary, as an example, suffers death but is not ontologically “guilty.”
• Critique of the Reformation tendency to read Western legalistic meanings into Church Fathers' terms.
• The Byzantine synods’ rejection of the notion that God can be “paid off” with created things, which Protestant legal metaphors often imply.

4. False Dialectics, Religious Subversion, and Geopolitics

Timestamps: 11:50–15:13

• Jay clarifies prior discussion with Gerald (from Crowder’s show):
  • Their main concern is modern social engineering, not internal religious minutiae.
  • The notion that not supporting Netanyahu means supporting Hamas, or vice versa, is called “a false dialectic” used for manipulation of the masses.
• The CIA’s role in stirring up division within church bodies is cited as analogous to national/religious demographic struggles (Ukraine, Macedonia, etc.).
• Quote [15:15]: “The power elite will do the same thing to say, push a lot of Muslims into Texas to intentionally, you know, cause a demographic change…” – Jay Dyer

5. Masonry as Synthetic Religion

Timestamps: 55:28–62:48

• Jay recounts a recent visit to the George Washington Masonic Monument in Alexandria, VA.
• He argues Masonry is “Judaism for Gentiles”—a universalized, syncretistic system featuring the rebuilding of Solomon’s Temple as a symbolic goal.
• Parallels drawn between Masonic aims and the “tolerance”/ecumenical ethos of Vatican II documents.
• Quote [56:19]:
  “Masonry is essentially Judaism for Gentiles, it is an alternate version of the Church.” – Jay Dyer

6. The Decline of Catholic Online Apologetics & Trent Horn

Timestamps: 64:58–79:42

• Jay lampoons Catholic apologist Trent Horn and “Pope Respector” for tone policing and refusing debate, noting a general refusal of intellectual engagement and increased focus on moral posturing.
• Double standards and personal attacks are attributed to a collapse in Catholic apologetics, with former debate partners devolving to doxxing and character attacks.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On System-Building in Protestantism:
  “It’s system-building… Now, he literally went to quote seminary...to try to figure out a way to make it work.” – Jay Dyer [134:29]
• On Alien Disclosure Conspiracy:
  “The state creates a religion to kind of keep people in line. And this is just another sort of updated version of that.” – Jay Dyer [23:28]
• On Male vs. Femininity in Public Discourse:
  “It’s very… effeminate to come on here and be like, like, you have bad motives. But also Christianity is just simple.” – Jay Dyer [108:01]
• On the End of Catholic Apologetic Debates:
  “There has not been since that... Maybe there’s some unknown debate. Trent Horn, he’s too good, he’s too pious to associate with any quote ortho bro. Trent Doherty can’t debate. Lost his mind, had to hide out for a year.” – Jay Dyer [75:39]

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Call-Ins and Open Q&A Segments

[52:18–55:28] – Discussion on what makes a good Orthodox godfather, practical piety, and a tongue-in-cheek recommendation to “talk like the Godfather”.

[80:35–88:15] – Catholic caller expresses hope for unity; Jay challenges the claim that the Roman church is “one and undivided,” citing changes and divisions on doctrine like the death penalty and Latin Mass. Analysis of Vatican I infallibility language and the limits of papal authority.

[101:07–112:41] – Callers question Jay’s style and motives. Jay and John push back against “tone-policing,” arguing sincerity and masculine honesty are being confused for ego or hostility.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 17:10–27:18 – Alien Disclosure and the Brookings Institute
• 29:43–39:05 – Live debate on Atonement, Guilt, Orthodox vs. Protestant soteriology
• 44:42–54:53, 115:23+ – Redeem Zoomer “Reply” dissected
• 55:28–62:48 – Freemasonry and synthetic religion
• 64:58–79:42 – Catholic online apologetics, tone policing, and decline
• 80:35–88:15 – Catholic unity, death penalty, papal doctrines challenged
• 101:07–112:41 – Callers on personal motives, Jay’s approach, and “masculinity” in debate

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Tone & Language

Jay's tone is unapologetically assertive, sardonic, and laced with meme humor. The dialogue swings from lampooning rivals to deep dives into theology and history. FDA and John offer more reasoned comebacks, occasionally grounding the discussion with citations and historical context, but the overall atmosphere is confrontational and playful, aimed at “destroying” weak arguments with both facts and ridicule.

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Summary

For listeners, this episode is a fast-paced, idea-dense, and irreverent tour through contemporary religious debates and culture wars. Jay Dyer focuses on exposing manipulative dichotomies in both religious and social spheres, challenges the internal consistency of Protestant and Catholic positions, and laments the slide of online apologetics into personality-driven drama over rigorous argument. Listeners will walk away with a sense of both the apologetic “state of play” and the tactics used by various camps—plus several insider memes and cultural critiques along the way.

Transcript

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[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Corporate.

[Jay Dyer]

Here we go. Planet fitness. I got that Blood buzzer. I got that Blob. I got that Palantir. I got that Palantir. I got that Whale Fargo. I got that Whale Fargo. Tylenol. Tylenol. I got no bsco. I got no bsco. I got that TJ Maxx. I got that TJ Maxx. I got Balenciaga. I got Balenciaga. I got Balenciaga. I got Balenciaga. This is fun.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I'm.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm like a rapper now. I'm a rapper now. Damn. I just realized it.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

You bet.

[Jay Dyer]

It's Cringe. It's called Cringe. Core dummy. Dude thinks he's on the cutting edge. The cusp of cutting edge. Calling me cringe. Got the Ca. Got the TJ Max. Got that Zap. Got that Dap. Got that Gap. Got that Craft. Got that Long John Civil. Got that Disney Plus. Got that Taco Supreme. Got that Bisco. Got that Tylenol.

[Redeem Zoomer]

They stole some Sumerian technology that allowed them to predict outcomes, and that technology stopped working in 2012.

[Chelsea Handler]

We're going to get into that tomorrow.

[Redeem Zoomer]

I find it to be fascinating. I wonder if they saw Charlie Kirk.

[Jay Dyer]

Black kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. But the Dark Ages was a time when black people ruled Europe. So when you go into the real history, you'll see King James was. That's King James right there. That's James LeBron. That's King LeBron right there.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Black.

[Jay Dyer]

He was not a white guy. You'll see his whole lineage of kings, Black Kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black king, black bishops, black players. People of the chocolate persuasion. Black kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Who was a homosexual himself, who was in love with his sister Lucretia, who

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

they made the image of Lucretia to be married.

[Jay Dyer]

And that became the Renaissance era.

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[Jay Dyer]

So hold on, you telling me Lucretia, that's a black name right there. How you gonna say that the people that was framing the black people were also black? That don't make no sense. Lucretia is a black as hell name. Lucretia. Church even allowed it. You know what I'm saying? The church allowed for straight pimping. That have been suppressed. That have been suppressed. Listen to my brother. The 1500s, it was legal to be a pimp. Black king, black dishes, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Back in the saddle. So glad to be back with you guys after an epic five week road trip. As you guys know, it began with Angry Tim Pool and it concluded with Nice, Gerald Crowder's co host. Now, I want to start by clearing up a little misconception. And if you want to support the stream, you can do so through the super chats done by streamlabs. So people thought, wait a minute, why is Gerald saying that? Jay is saying that foreign entities are dividing the church. So to be clear, the conversation that we had was primarily focused on modern geopolitics. By the time we get to that topic, okay, so Gerald and I are not talking about ecclesiology. When this comes up, the subject matter is whether or not there's a push to get, say, Roman Catholics on the side of Muslims, a Chrislam alliance. And of course, we've seen over the last several years Sneako Tates a lot of these goobers promoting that very idea. So we were partly talking about that. At the same time as in this discussion, we discussed the theological components of Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam and Judaism. So we get into all of that and a little bit of Protestant stuff too.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

But

[Jay Dyer]

mostly this discussion is not dealing with, with the theology. It's not an ecclesiological debate that we had with Gerald. And we didn't really have a debate. It was more like discussing topics. And there's a few areas where we disagreed. I think Gerald is pretty open about, you know, being evangelical, liking evangelical apologetics. He's probably less critical of Israel than I would be, but he is at least critical of Netanyahu critical of some of the actions.

[Chelsea Handler]

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[Jay Dyer]

But the main thrust of this conversation was actually about whether there's a false dialectic. And that's kind of what we're getting at.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

And I was glad to have that conversation with him. We got really deep into the topic of whether or not it's a false dialectic between, well, if you don't like Netanyahu, you must be pro Hamas, you must be pro Islam, or if you don't like Islam, then you got to be pro Zionist. And it was, I think, a step forward. Could you turn the air on a little too, babe? The air. Could you turn the air down a little bit? It's kind of stuffy in here. It was also, I think, a positive move to, you know, get Gerald to say that he acknowledges a false dialectic. Right. I mean, not that he's a stupid person But I think he's been more willing to be critical of Middle Eastern foreign policy than perhaps in the past. I don't know. I'm not. I haven't followed Gerald's positions over years, but I think he's is a good conversation and a lot of people in the comments are being dumb and they think that I'm saying that, oh, look, he agree with Gerald that there's not one church and the church is divided. Now, we were talking about strategies of subversion and how the west could be subverted by the promoting of Islam. And from the vantage point of the power elite, they don't care like what your specific religious minutia debates are. Right. They will play up to divide the. The the country. Just like, for example, the CIA divides the Orthodox Church in Ukraine or Macedonia. Well, they'll do the same thing. The Power League will do the same thing to say, push a lot of Muslims into Texas to intentionally, you know, cause a demographic change, et cetera, et cetera. So that's what we were talking about. I want to also address. We'll go to a call here in a second and shout out to fda. He's with me today. We'll go to a call here in a second with. Who's this Verge. We'll go to you in a second. But apparently our boy Redeemed Kumar. I'm just joking. That's a joke. By the way, Redeem Zoomer has replied and. And I had tons and tons of requests to cover this reply. So fda, if you would like to join. I think we will. It would be good to walk through what Redeem Zoomer now says. Oh, here's what I should have argued to Jay Dyer three years ago. So we'll play a little bit of this. We'll take some questions and calls. In the midst of it, I'm also gonna talk a little bit more about Trent Horn. I want to talk about aliens. Because now we have Disclosure and the government again pushing the ridiculous psyop of alien disclosure. Interestingly timed right when Spielberg's movie Disclosure is coming out. Interesting. So I think that this is partly a distraction. I mean, it's not just it. Go ahead.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I just. I had to log out. Is that what it's even called? Lockout? Leave the space and come back in.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, okay, let's go. All right, let's go. Redeem Zoomer. And then we're going to talk about aliens, too, because this is all the rage and we've been talking over and over and over about the alien psyop. How it's social engineering, how it's just advanced technology is black ops. It's not a bunch of. It's not a bunch of faking Gallians. What yesterday, what'd you say hello Lord

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Voldemort yesterday talking about too. I did.

[Jay Dyer]

I disagree with a couple of things that Alex said because I mean overall he was correct about it being, you know, demonic and a manifestation of, you know, weird stuff. But. And he admits the black ops angle of it too. But I don't know where he got the idea that the orthodox and Catholic churches have suppressed. I think he's talking about the Book of Enoch, which we don't suppress the Book of Enoch, it's just not in the canon. So I'm not sure where he got that idea.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Also what's interesting too, this actually came up in my. I was doing a live stream of my philosophy class, but somehow can't remember how it started. Aliens came up and I was like, well yeah, that's the orthodox position has always been that it's either fake and gray or demons or the government mess around doing stuff. I did find it interesting that Lord Voldemort was talking about how I hadn't heard this before. That's a lot of this stuff is actually created.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

By military or these different people.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, It's a clever cloak. Right. You can cloak high technology under the ages of aliens and then people think it's ridiculous or they just kind of brush it off so that the. The government actually seeds the alien narrative. And I put up an old academic text from a few years ago that I'd read by Brenda Denzler. And even beyond just covering for advanced military technology, there's also a social engineering aspect to where there were studies done by the Brookings institute in the 1960s that you could actually change the landscape of the western religious sphere, perhaps by promoting the alien narrative. And here it is right here, actual academic text. This is not a conspiracy text. Brenda Denzler is a professor. She studies new religious movements. And so this book is about the connection between religious cults and alien ideas, abductions, etc. And you'll notice it says that in the 19. In 1960 Brookings Institute, this is one of the premier think tanks, kind of like RAN Corporation or whatever. They were commissioned by NASA to the effect that they put out a paper saying that the discovery of ETS would fundamentally change all religious institutions and traditions. It would be an electrifying discovery. It would have far reaching consequences, especially in societies that were fundamentalist or had a powerful. Where fundamentalism is a powerful social force. Science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke, who co wrote 2001 and who was a. He liked to touch the youth's butts, by the way, in front of Crowley. He felt that the doctrine of the Incarnation would be undercut by this. It would be a ticking time bomb, as one psychologist in the UFO community observed. Perhaps in some ways a long battle against the UFO cover. It was not about the public's right to know, as it was as much as it was the public's right not to know. Not only would the idea of the Incarnation be undercut, but the whole of the Christian idea of God would be severely problematized. And this is the actual Brookings Institute document. Christianity would be particularly compromised. The discovery of ever of extraterrestrial life would make it so much. So it would make so much, since it makes so much of the Incarnation as a historical event and of the knowledge of the good news of Jesus Christ. The passion, ascension and atonement would now be called into question. It would have to. I can barely read this. It would have to maintain the incarnation, crucifixion on other worlds. In other words, the Jesus also died to save the fake and galleons. It would either or it would embark on a vigorous missionary activity throughout the cosmos. This is so stupid. But this would be in vain because you could never reach all the galaxies. Thus Christianity would be eternally damaged. And you could not reconcile this with divine providence. Now, obviously a lot of those assertions are stupid, but you can see the thought process of the Brookings Institute in 1960. How to capitalize and use the alien mythos to rewrite and subvert Christianity, presumably to replace it with some new establishment amenable religious ethos. You know, a religion created for the people.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

This is Plato's whole thing, right? The state, the noble lie. The state creates a religion to kind of people in line. And this is just another sort of updated version of that. Fda. Do you want to say something?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well, I was gonna say we all knew about the. The narrative being created. I never heard the theory that the. The aliens. Entities created by the government. I've never heard that theory before.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, you're saying Alex said that. That there's hybrids or something? What do you mean?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, that they're. They're basically engineered human beings.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, super. Did I misunderstood what you were saying? Yeah, that's. That doesn't sound. That sounds not plausible to me. I don't believe that. But I mean, I could see that. I could see them like state. I could See them staging an abduction or, you know, baby basically. Basically, you know, putting dead alien bodies, you know, fake alien bodies around and staging it or something like that.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

They're actually. I hate to break this to you, but they're actually been engineering. They're super autist.

[Jay Dyer]

And so half of our discord. Basically.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Basically, yeah. Are supposedly super intelligent because they're super autistic and they've. Biologically, they're designer babies and. And then they just pawn them off as aliens.

[Jay Dyer]

So the aliens are all. They're all gay spurgs because they just pro bots. It's just. They're all faking gay, but they're also spurgs. So.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well enough. You know the connection between gender dysphoria and skittle stuff.

[Jay Dyer]

I do. And autism.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

There's a link there. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

John, did you want to say something before we go to the Verge?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I was just gonna say that in the 60s and 70s, there was an effort to kind of merged the Jesus movement with the alien thing. And it even tied in with like, you know, Chariots of the Gods and all that type of stuff because there was, you know, and, you know, whether it's Von Daniken or Zacharias Sitchin, a lot of evangelicals started, you know, using Von Daniken and Zachariah Sitchin as. As references in some other book.

[Jay Dyer]

No, Chuck Mizzler does.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, yeah. So there's this, you know, there is a connection with end times apocalyptic theology and aliens.

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

In the 90s, the early 90s, into the mid-90s. Well, that's when I noticed it. They're probably still pushing it. They pushed alien aesthetics and race, like it was all about. And then the Moon Tribe stuff and like this.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the night, the 90s and all the alien stuff.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

But I remember that was a huge theme in the raves.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, it was all throughout the 90s. The 90s were all about that stupid alien headed logo.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

But there was even a strain too where they said that like, aliens would actually be the ones that would destroy the Temple Mount.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, no, John, you're right on. So the Collins brothers, in their book Invoking the Beyond, they have a significant section devoted to what they call immanentizing the eschaton. And they point to a lot of evangelicals hopping on the alien train to tie it into eschatological sensationalism and immanentizing the eschaton. So that's absolutely right. By the way, everybody should get Invoking the Beyond if you don't have. It's a great book. And mainly the Middle section on the alien psyop is the best I've ever read on the whole alien thing.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea, after the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who was Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the Big Game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

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It's tax season, and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers. But here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity theft Protection. For tax season and beyond, visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart terms, apparently.

[Jay Dyer]

Verge. What's up, man? What's on your mind?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Verve.

[Jay Dyer]

Verve pipe. What's on your mind? Is it bittersweet Symphony Dog? What's up? Unmute, dude. It's a bit sweet. Symphony Verge on mute Dude, I can't believe you waited all that time and you're not gonna unmute. I guess it's a bittersweet symphony, isn't it? Ecumenical? Go trial? Try goitrarian. There we go. I'm gonna call myself Gay Fundamentalist. Ecumenist. What's up, man?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

How you doing, Jeff?

[Jay Dyer]

Keeping it real good.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

So I just had a couple questions

[Jay Dyer]

because I've been reading the Fathers a lot and I was just wondering how

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

much you know about the Atonement.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I know the orthodox position. I know the Basic positions. I know the Protestant classical position. I mean. What. I know the Lutheran idea. What do you mean?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well, I just. I've just been seeing a lot, especially in like the classic, like Orthodox circles, that it was just primarily the Christmas Victoria element to the atonement. But I was just.

[Jay Dyer]

Because a lot of what the fathers

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

say, there's like a lot of penality to it. Would you agree?

[Jay Dyer]

The language is definitely there. I mean, Paul uses a penal language, but the problem is that people are reading into that. The classical Reformation assumptions.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

What would be the classical Reformation assumptions in that case?

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, it could be any. Everything from inherited guilt to spiritual punishment to damnation. Purely imputed legal status. It could be any of those things. What do you mean?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well, I mean, it would be the case that there would be some guilt tied to what would be sin. Right? I mean, that. That would be much be obvious for when Paul writes.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but it's not obvious that that guilt is transmitted to the descendants, nor is it obvious that that guilt is put on Christ.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

And also, what was it we said to you soon? It's consent to a passion, not a legal state. They kicked me off.

[Jay Dyer]

No, we didn't.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Oh, sorry. My bad.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so, yeah, so you came. So here's. You came here to subvert and then you're laughing because you thought you got kicked off when you didn't, so you just betrayed what you're actually after.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well, no, I just said listener. I wasn't finished speaking, so that's why I was just like. It suddenly kicked me off. My bad.

[Jay Dyer]

I apologize. Sure.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

But I mean, for me, I mean, it's what the Father say. I mean, even when you read John Christophs on his homily on the Annunciation,

[Jay Dyer]

nobody's teaching the Protestant doctrine of penal substitutionary Talmud. This is retarded. So do you think, for example, that by the seventh century, do you think John Damascus would have a good idea about what the Atonement is?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah. I mean, he even speaks on the legality of it.

[Jay Dyer]

Again, you're equivocating on legality and terminology. I'm talking about exactly what the words mean and whether or not Christ himself became evil, became a curse, and what that exactly means. Do you. Do you know what John Damascus says about it?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

That I believe that the Christ bore the sins of the world. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Is sin. Is sinus an ontological status?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

No. No one would disagree with that.

[Jay Dyer]

Of course they would. Calvinists believe that it could be. What are you talking about? Is it an ontological status? Yeah, as in okay, now see, now you've already rejected. Now you've already rejected the protistic teaching. Sin is not an ontological status. It has no ontological being. Well, I mean,

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

let me clarify. I mean, no one disagree that aunt status is a privation or a sin is privation.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, okay, so then it's not. So then it's not equated to guilt.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well, we would be guilty insofar as we are liable.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but an infant isn't. And Mary has. Has ancestral sin, but she has no guilt.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

What do you mean? Yeah, you didn't know that the Annunciation, like it would.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, she's not purified at the Annunciation. She's the spotless virgin by grace her whole life. So she's. She has death. She's a, She's a daughter of Adam.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

That's the angel Gabriel.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, you don't even know what the Annunciation is. That's when Gabriel announces Jesus's birth. It's not the Annunciation where she's purified. She's always purified. But Mary shows us that there's a difference between guilt and the punishment of guilt.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, obviously. Like a one would be.

[Jay Dyer]

How is it obvious when you didn't realize that Because Mary dies, but she's guiltless.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

So she has the effects.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

She would be still subject to death.

[Jay Dyer]

So thank you. So that's my point. There's a difference between the guilt and the effects. That's our point.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Right. But there would still be a legality to it because that, that punishment is due course for man.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, is the, is the punishment. What is the punishment that's due to sin? Death in. In a physical sense or also spiritual?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Could be both.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so you think Jesus underwent spiritual death?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I think he experienced it.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, that's heresy because no church father teaches that.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

That.

[Jay Dyer]

That's the heresy. And you're anti Trinitarian. How does the Divine Son divide or split off of the Trinity?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

He. He wouldn't in this case.

[Jay Dyer]

Then you just refuted yourself. You just said that he underwent spiritual death.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I mean,

[Jay Dyer]

so you have no idea what you're talking about. Why do you come? Why do you think that you are competent to tell me what the Church fathers teach? And you can't even work through the basics.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

My point would be.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, you're gone. What's up, man? Faith.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

It's exactly the Protestants too. What do I always, you know, they always say, look, let's go to the scripture and read. And what's my response? Always why you're. And you can't read like what is going to the text can help you if you're twisting into your own destruction. Well, got the same thing with the Solar Patristica crowd is they think that they have enough virtue and spiritual wisdom and perhaps intellectual points or IQ points to be able to read these texts. And then what do you find out? They don't even know what they're reading.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. So John Damascus explains here at the end of book three, exactly what Christ underwent when he died. He underwent no spiritual death or damnation. It is the severing of his human soul from his human body. And he explains it perfectly, in line with everything that Chris Austin or anyone else teaches. Nobody in the patristic era teaches that the Son was damned, like classical Reformation teaching says. And he's refuted right here, chapter 28 and 29. It's the last. Well, you could say 27 to 29. The last part of. On the Orthodox faith. John Damascus, right here. Concerning the Lord's passion. He suffered in the flesh. However, his divinity never suffered because the divinity is impassable. That means that you can't have the Son, who's a divine person, being damned. He can't split off of the Trinity. And to be damned means you're not part of the Trinity. It's so stupid. But these people have no idea what they're talking about. But they're so arrogant. They're the most arrogant people online.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I also think that the punishment, the penalty, the wrath of God, is that God's the cause of it. Which is crazy because remember I found in St. Gregory and Nyssa a beautiful quote that said, how can life itself ever be the cause of death? I mean, that just refutes their whole thing that. Oh, yes, the. The wrath is. Is. Is causally from God to kind of legally, you know, satisfy divine justice. And it's like, that's insane to say life causes death.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, it's also rejected by the Byzantine synods, where you have the idea that you can't. God cannot be placated or paid with created things. And a lot of these people end up saying that it's the human nature of Christ that was the payment, because they realize it doesn't make any sense for one person to pay another person off off. It's in the Trinity, right? So then they say, oh, well, then it was the human nature. Well, the Byzantine synods point out that what can. What creature could pay God off? It doesn't make any sense. Father. What's up, Father of Ohio State?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Hey, how you doing?

[Jay Dyer]

Man, I just wanted to say I

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

appreciate you talking to that guy because there's this.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't know if it's a new

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

thing or if it's a resurgence, but you have these reformers trying to read modern legalistic meanings into terms that were used by the church fathers. And he referenced, reference the homily. In that same homily, he says, we became sinners not as having transgressed with Adam, but because we are of his

[Jay Dyer]

nature, which fell into corruption. I just want to come over and

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

say I appreciate that because I'm sick of these reformers and Western Christians reading yeah, Western legal, legalized meanings into correct terms that didn't mean what they think it meant when they used them. So I just wanted to come up.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, great point. I appreciate that. And also great to see. Point out that that very homily refutes the thing the guy's trying to say. Dr. Henry Rose. I think I know this, this person. I think I know this professor. Esteemed professor Dr. Henry Rose is in the chat. Go ahead and unmute.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Hello.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, Sir. Esteemed professor. Dr. Rose, how are you?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, I'm Dr. Dr. Henry Rose. I. I graduated from ATL in Harlem.

[Jay Dyer]

Obama.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah. John David Manning was my thesis advisor. My thesis would call Catholic Tradies vs Long Legged Mac Daddies, Long Legged Magdalen against the Latin mass because it's not in pigeon.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a great point. Why ought we not have the Latin mass in pigeon? Is that what your thesis was?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, for real, though, why not?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I don't know if you saw this Dr. Henry Rose, but I also had a conversation with the Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson. Are you familiar with him?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Oh, man, that dude. Cool, man. I like him.

[Jay Dyer]

He said, he, he said. He told me to ask you, he said, have you forgive your mother?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Man, I forgave my mother a long time ago.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, well, there we go.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah. No, now I gotta think about your thing about Israel. Okay, so when I was a kid, I got attacked by like five black Israelites.

[Jay Dyer]

Huh?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

And I whooped them.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, okay.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

And then I got attacked by five Nation of Islam dudes and they beat me up.

[Jay Dyer]

Is this the same day? Is this the same day?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Then when they fought each other, I mean, all right, two plus two equals four. Am I right?

[Jay Dyer]

Correct. That's correct. That's right.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Okay, so five black Israelites will. Five nation Islam brothers, okay? I have five less enemies.

[Jay Dyer]

You play, you gotta play them. Play them players off against one another. That's what I'm Saying that's that James Bond logic. That's that beta fish logic.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah. So we gotta let them black Israelites beat up the Nation Islam, even though I know that that Marine, what was his name, Shapiro you talked to said you don't even believe in logics and you're some kind of clansman.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct. Well, if I was a Klansman, why would I be having my fellow black professors on today? Why would I be talking to Jesse Lee Peterson if I was a Klansman?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Ah, true. You got a point right there. Yeah, you got a point. I'll give it to you. Anyway, I got. I got three more words for you, though.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, go for it.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Agrippa's tr.

[Jay Dyer]

Now he's trying to bring up. He knows my weak point points. He knows the weak points. Thank you, Dr. Rose.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Shout out to Tri Tip Lemma. Have you ever heard of that one? Agrippa's Dilemma is your Achilles heel, right?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

That's kryptonite. Okay, don't ever bring that.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm cooked dog. But again, shout out to Dr. Professor Reverend Henry Rose, very esteemed black pastor and activist coming out of the Atlas Fear, the ATLA adjacent world. Shout out to Reverend Manning.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Oh. Bomb and Larry Sinclair had a steaming love affair.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, let's listen a little bit of this. I want to try to get. Let's. Let's see, we got probably to speed him up. Let's speed this little boy up right here. Playback. Speed. Let's make it fast. Fast as hell, dude. All right, now, we'll go to calls as well in the midst of this, but if we don't start this right now, we'll never get through it. Let's see what Redeem Zoomer says is what he should have said all along. Could you get me a. A coffee with a little bit of honey in it?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Ginger two.

[Jay Dyer]

I've got a little bit of a

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

drop of ginger two in the coffee.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm a little ver clamp because that dude called me out and I started. I started tearing up a little bit.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea after the Big game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials. And there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the Impact is still huge. If you saw the blue square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the blue square is one small way to do that.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

It's tax season, and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity theft protection. For tax season and beyond. Visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] terms apply.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Hey guys, I'm Redeem Zoomer. So, as you guys know, I've gotten back into Protestant apologetics after taking a break from it for about a year. And I've made a lot of videos responding to the claims of Roman Catholicism, explaining why I'm not Catholic. But a lot of you guys have been requesting videos on Eastern Orthodoxy as well, so I will be doing that. But first I thought I should respond to this debate I did three years ago with Jay Dyer. This debate was three years ago, but a lot of orthodox clickform accounts keep re uploading it. So every sixth month I'll get some message saying, hey Zoomer, thoughts on your recent debate with Jay Dyer? I'll be like, what recent debate? And then I'll be like, oh wait, somebody re uploaded.

[Jay Dyer]

But no, the orthodox click farms. Interesting. So, and this was a, this is a sore spot when the debates get uploaded again because people think that they're new debates. So I want to encourage everyone to continue to upload the debates to make these people annoyed and mad. And be sure to clip and upload the Trent Horn debate because he's still six, seven years later, really mad about it. So here we go.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Actual debate was in 2023 and that was before I really read any of the church fathers. I mean, I barely read anything this.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, so it's three years since this and he's not read any of the Church Fathers. But now he's read. How much can you even read in three years? Not a lot. I mean, you could read some, but now he's ready to go back to the. To the debate game.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Was all the books that I had read before that. And ever since then, I've had a chance to read a lot of the Church Fathers.

[Jay Dyer]

It. Okay, well, hold on. He's. Let's see. What. What was he. So he claims he's read a whole bunch of what looks like 1st and 2nd century church fathers here, and then it looks like a little bit of Athanasius. So let's see.

[Redeem Zoomer]

I've had a chance to read.

[Jay Dyer]

Is he saying that he's read all these. We'll have to see a lot of

[Redeem Zoomer]

the Church Fathers and many other theologians as well. So, as you can imagine, I didn't do very well in this debate. I didn't know who Jay Dyer was. So when my friend Kyle invited me to talk to Jay Dyers, like, sure, I looked him up. He's like, he's a comedian. I was like, okay. I didn't realize he was like an Expert debater with 20 years of debate experience who went to her.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, so he's applying that Kyle tricked him or something. Come on, dude.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Warm seminary and then became Eastern Orthodox. So I didn't answer a lot of these questions very well. There are a lot of times where just I hadn't really heard those arguments before. I hadn't really had a chance to think of what the Reformed response to them would be. So I have selected some key points throughout this debate, some key things I should have said differently. And I'm honestly grateful for this debate because Jay Dyer helps me realize the importance of an authoritative visible church.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Church.

[Redeem Zoomer]

And that helps me realize that it's sinful to schism from the main.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you serious, dude? A historical visible church? I mean, who actually thinks that that's going to still be Calvinism? Where was John Calvin's church in the first 1500 years? Come on, dude. So, I mean, has this actually helped him at all? Or has it just sort of helped him to think that he can come up with a new way to make it work?

[Redeem Zoomer]

Fine Church. Like, back then, I was in the PC USA because I thought it was culturally important to stay in mainline churches because we have heritage in buildings and traditional worship and all that. But now I actually.

[Jay Dyer]

No, the PC USA does not have traditional worship. They have buildings. They have heritage in buildings. He said, I think every church has a building. Okay? And like, no, you guys are gonna. You gotta understand, I'm not just living rent free in his head head. I'm living rent free. And all the people that have lost the debates head. This is what people are noticing about Trent Horn too. Trent is still mad over a debate six years ago. And will none of these people, I'm gonna tell you guys, here's the actual solution. The way out of all this is to actually look at the issues and face up to the issues. You're not gonna to get the piece that you're looking for by crafting a new intellectual argument to try to solve the challenges from three, six, seven years ago. Because the problem, as Father Deacon always notes, is actually spiritual. It's not an intellectual problem. And that's why this keeps bugging these people, is that they think that they're going to create an intellectual solution to these problems.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Understand that it's important to have an authoritative visible church from which voluntary schism is sin.

[Jay Dyer]

And I prompt, okay, what's the authoritative visible church? Redeemed zoomer, from which it is sinful to schism. My money is on the fact that he will never actually have an epistemic criteria for identifying who that is and from whence they derive their normative authority.

[Redeem Zoomer]

I wouldn't have realized that if I hadn't been reading the Church Fathers, reading the Scottish, Presbyterian, Westminster Divines, and if I hadn't been criticized rightly by Orthodox who pointed out that I had no real coherent ecclesiology. That's the thing. Protestants always get nailed by Catholic and Orthodox debaters when they don't have a clear ecclesiology, when they have what I would call libertarian ecclesiology, where anyone can start their own church for any reason. But let's get right into it. So the first part of our discussion was the famous canon conundrum, the famous.

[Jay Dyer]

What do you think is going to be his solution? I'm gonna bet you that he begs the question and he's going to try to say there's got to be some kind of organized structure of elders or presbyters. Okay, who gave the elders or presbyters in the 1600s that authority?

[Redeem Zoomer]

Canon question. So let's go to that. The tradition itself is not infallible. We rely. It is possible.

[Jay Dyer]

So the Bible relies on what goes in the books, relies on a thing that is itself fallible distribution that you're talking about. So the infallible thing relies on a fallible thing.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Okay, here's an analogy.

[Jay Dyer]

Your.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Your priest is fallible, correct?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Redeem Zoomer]

You can still trust Your priest to deliver the faith to you. Correct.

[Jay Dyer]

But this is not. This is two different questions. Normative authority versus existential authority.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Okay, Your. Your reasoning is fallible. Correct. But God still brought you to the church through your reasoning in some sense. Correct.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but that's a category mistake. So you're confusing two categories. You're confusing the existential was the normative.

[Redeem Zoomer]

So. So you can see I was confused here. I hadn't really heard the word normative

[Jay Dyer]

authority before at fda.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well, to be fair to the Protestants, the reason why they always go there is because Catholics protesting Roman Catholicism.

[Jay Dyer]

Right. The Catholic arguments are always low tier, so. Yeah.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah. Well, it's always a type of infallibilism.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

That in order to know, you have to have an infallible magisterium. So Roman Catholics are obsessed with the epistemic category. So Protestants are used to referring to that. And then I guess they just think when they are like orthodox or just Roman Catholics with cool vestments and incense, they think it's the same argument. So that's why he's not getting that there's a different issue between how do I know something and do I need a Cartesian strong theory of knowledge of infallibilism versus the kind of legal and moral normative category what binds. Yeah, like, how are these ecclesia and legally solved?

[Jay Dyer]

Are you breeding cats? Is that a cat breeding farm in the background?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I told you, it's. Seriously, it's Lord of the Flies out here in my apartment complex. These children are. Oh, reenacting Lord of the flies 24 7. They have no parents. I like, I don't know what's going on, but that's children.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. I thought it was like Epstein's cat breeding farm there. What's up, dude? That boy. What's on your mind, dog? So somebody said in the chat that Redeem Wilmer says he redeemed. Redeem Coomer thinks he would whip my ass now in a debate. Okay, yeah, fine. Let's do a. Perform another formal debate because he's gonna beat my ass. Now unmute that boy. What's up?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Hey, Jay, how's it going?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, sir.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Hey, I've been trying to ask this question to you for a couple weeks now, but it works out because we

[Jay Dyer]

got Father Deacon on.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Maybe he can give some insight as well. But basically, with us going into Posca here soon, I know there's a lot of young men that are becoming godparents to kids, and I was just curious if you have any God kids of your Own. And then any insight you might give to help young men be good godfathers to the kids that they're sponsoring into the church.

[Jay Dyer]

I do, but I'll let FDA answer.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Sorry, what was the question about how to.

[Jay Dyer]

What are good characteristics of a good godfather in the orthodox domain?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Mature, obviously. Mature in the face, leadership skills. If you know, you see somebody who, I mean, how do you know somebody's character is in their work, right. When you've seen them, particularly if you had an, a situation of adversity in which you saw somebody shine and oh, here's a person that when things don't go well, they're really great. Piety, strengths of character and maturity in the face, those are all good characteristics to have as a godfather.

[Jay Dyer]

Also, it helps to actually be the godfather. So to put some, some sunflower seeds in your cheeks and you talk to them, talk to them like this and tell them, hey, if you're gonna do, you know, you want to get through this life, maybe I call upon you, you do a thing for me, maybe I do a thing for you. So you have to literally be the godfather. Also, you want to get him a copy of Albert Mackey's Symbolism in Freemasonry. I'm joking. I did buy this book at the giant Masonic monument in the Alexandria. Right. So did we tell you guys this? I think we did. We mentioned it maybe when we were on the road. So for those that don't know, there is a giant Masonic monument to George Washington. Have you heard of this man? George Washington, familiar with this guy? Allegedly some sort of Founding father person. But of course we know that all history is actually fake. Giraffes do not exist. They're Rothschild creation. History does not exist. It is literally all fake and gay. It's all made up. They literally made the history. Last year there was like an AI that made it it. Just kidding. So here's the Washington Masonic monument which we toured and I think I showed you guys some of the pictures. Why do we do this? Well, I was interested, interested to see what the Masonic ethos of D.C. actually was. And we had a Masonic historian on site to give you a detailed explanation of the Masonic worldview.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Do right.

[Jay Dyer]

So they explained the symbolism, the meanings, etc now all Masonry will tell you as our guide told us. By the way, I'm gonna tell you there's another reason why ultimately there's a big debate coming up. I'm going to be debating a Freemason. So that's another reason why we're doing this. They will tell you that the purpose of Freemasonry is to, quote, rebuild Solomon's temple. But then the masons will tell you, however, we don't know what that means. It's some sort of mystical spiritual meaning. Well, I know what it means. And it has to do with the idea of Judaism and the rebuilding of the Third Temple because Masonry is essentially Judaism for Gentiles, it is an alternate version of the Church. And so it's a kind of naturalistic, naturalized universal religion that ultimately sort of points back to Judaism.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Them.

[Jay Dyer]

That's what Freemasonry is and hence why its central quote, mystery is the rebuilding of Solomon's Temple. I want, I don't know, what does that mean? I don't know what that means. I wonder what that means. Maybe it means rebuilding the temple. So every Masonic lodge is a kind of little temple, right? And what's fascinating is that all throughout this lecture he's constantly explaining things that, that it's exactly what the Orthodox Church says, but they apply it to the Masonic temples. He's like, oh, look at the symbol. He's like, look at the symbolism of the, the two pillars. And you know, Solomon's temple is, it's got all this symbolism in it. And it's like, yeah, that's all in the Orthodox Church, dude. Duh.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

But then here's the neat part. And I say neat because this is exactly what, what we suspected when you actually ask them to explain the ethos of is tolerance, syncretism and ecumenism. The guy even said, the historic Masonic historian said, our whole ethos is we all worship one God and we should all tolerate one another and we shouldn't have religious wars. Oh, well, that sounds so, so good and so nice, right? To not be divisive. Like all the trad cats on Twitter today, underneath Gerald's post, Dyer is divisive. Well, Jesus was divisive by that measure. So I'm not comparing myself to Jesus. I'm just saying the divisiveness in itself depends on what you're dividing over. So dividing in itself can be good or bad. This is how low tier people are. They think, oh, it needs to be divisive. Like Jesus said, I did not come, I came to divide a household against one another. Do you remember that? So Masonry is pretty. Go ahead, go ahead, John.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I bring the sword.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. But Masonry is predicated on the idea that there should be a confluence, a parliament of all the world religions to teach and preach tolerance because, quote, we all worship the, quote, one God. And I asked the guy I'm like, well, who is the one God? And he says, well, it's whatever your monotheism or not even necessarily monotheism if you're a Hindu. He says, you can be a Muslim or be a Mason and be a Hindu. He says, whatever your deity, your higher power tells you it is.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. After the Big Game, like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials. And there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who was Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the Big Game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

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[Jay Dyer]

Well, hello. That's everything that we've criticized about Masonry for forever. Jesus says I'm the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to father but my me. Masonry says no, we don't believe that. Okay, well, there you go. Masonry is anti Christian. That's all you need to know. And Masonry teaches the exact same thing that Lumen Gentium 16 and Nostra Tate say day. We all worship and love the same God just under a bunch of different forms and symbols and masks. So like the masks of God, I think that's a Joseph Campbell book. That's Masonry. Joseph Campbell openly teaches Freemasonry. I have his giant. I have multiple books, giant coffee table book full of Masonic stuff.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Okay, that's a lot of the notebooks are Masonic too.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, Exactly.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Dale Carnegie and, and Napoleon Hill.

[Jay Dyer]

Also who's the Warren Buffett? His book has a giant Masonic. I'll sing Eye on it. So even, even the, like Wall street, you know, Trading Bros. It's a bunch of Masonic gibberish. So anyway, the other reason that we tour this was that I wanted to get. I wanted to be able to say to Chase in the debate, hey, Chase, you think that you can be a Mason and a Christian? Well, I went to your giant temple here. Obviously I don't think people can tour the 33rd degree temple in D.C. but this is the next best thing. And you know, I saw in the, The, on the first floor where the bookstore is, they painted a new giant mural honoring Mecca. So I want to know how do you honor Mecca if you're supposedly a Christian Freemason, Chase. So and I also want to ask Chase, Chase is symbols of Freemasonry by Albert Mackey or Morals and Dogma? I mean, are those representative texts? Would you say that you are fine with those texts representing the Masonic philosophy? So it's going to be really interesting to see an out of, you know, the norm style of debate because we. I don't think I've ever debated a Mason on this topic. Lore Lodge in the Tim Gordon debate was supposed to be a Freemason, but that, that wasn't really our topic. So go ahead.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

One more would be that most people like me, you and FDA might know about. Our particular Generation X section would know about Norman Vincent Peele, but Norman Vincent Peale's version of prosperity gospel and all that, you know, downstream is all Freemasonic too.

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely, Absolutely. Chase Haggard says this is a fake. Chase. No, no, it's actually Chase Geyser that is the real Chase. And Chase Haggard is actually the online sock account. So I think you have this backwards. Chase. By the way, I do want to give a shout out to Chase Haggard. We did get to spend some awesome time. Basically an entire day with him two days ago. Still recovering from having to. To deal with that, put up with them. But just kidding. But we were able, thankfully, by divine providence to see so many people on this trip. It just happened to work out. We saw FDA in California. We saw Patrick Henningson. I haven't seen Patrick in person in about eight years. It was the last time I Saw Patrick was in the UK at AV9. We got to see Ubi Petras in person again. We did a podcast that just went up with ubi. If you guys didn't see that, check that out. It just went up Yesterday. We saw Rachel and Andrew. I hadn't seen Rachel Andrew in a few years. In person. We saw some other Orthodox friends in Dallas that we hadn't seen in a long time. We got to see Jonathan Pageau. I haven't seen Pageau since2017, so probably almost a decade. And good to have dinner with him, chatted with him for a long time. Met Deacon Richard Roland, I think is his name. Super cool guy and really, really nice in person and enthusiastic, exuberant to do it in person. Very cool. He's also very tall. It's always funny when you see people in person from the Internet. They're almost always either way shorter or way taller than you expect.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Fact.

[Jay Dyer]

And of course, I do want to remind everyone that Chase Haggard stresses that Tristan is a short king and that Tristan quote exists in the shadow of Chase because Chase is literally taller than Tristan. So we're gonna have to eventually find out a way to meet Tristan in person to see if this is actually true or Internet propaganda. I don't know yet what the truth is. Now this goober is back because they're really mad when I go on podcasts, okay? So if I go on Gerald or, or Hodge Twins or, I don't know, whatever podcast these people happen to peruse, they get mad and they complain and whine and. Right. Remember when I was on the tucker segment, my 10 minute segment on the last Tucker episode on Box and Lofton had a meltdown. He went crazy. I can't believe Tucker would have this evil person on his show. I mean, these people are such butt hurt whinys. They're so weak, dude. And now Pope Respector, probably the worst Roman Catholic profile online. I can't think of a pro of a person that he's worse. Way worse than Trent or any of these people. He's like one of the worst. The guy who still acts like Francis was this beige trad person. You can't make this up. This is literally what he says. Well, he has now given me an award and I want to thank Pope Respector, who, by the way, turned down a public debate. Pope Respector said for years, Dyer won't debate me because he's scared. We offered him a public formal debate. He would even get paid to do it. And he wouldn't do it because quote I can't show my face. Oh, so are you like a fed? Like, why can't you show your face? I'm scared. So you're happy to like all the other cowards now online like this who hide behind these gay ass profiles. You want to hide behind that, but you can't show your face and actually do a debate when you said for years that I'm a coward because I won't debate you. One reason I didn't want to debate you is that you're literally the worst debater. It's the lowest tier stuff of anybody. It's t dump level stuff. But for the papacy, I mean, dude, all he does is post like AI photos of the Pope like he's the Godfather. I mean, it's so gay and fake and stupid and somehow, I mean, basically, I'm. Catholics are the new Muslims. They're the new Muslims. They're. They worship the same God according to Vatican II and half of most of their apologists. So I'm going to say, yeah, okay, you are all basically Chris Long idiots. And you're all basically now Adiq. So he says no one has divided Christianity more than Jay Dyer. So now I'm. According to the Roman Catholics, I'm above Martin Luther. I am now above Martin Luther as the greatest agitator, disturber of the piece of, quote, Christendom. Well, actually, it's the papacy that is the first major schismer in the Christendom domain. Because the papacy in the 11th century claimed to have outrageous powers in dictatus pape, which are then reflected and dogmatized explicitly in unum sanctum under Pope Boniface. Or is it urban? Urban Pope Urban in unam Sanctified. So no, it's the papacy that is the actual schism. So. But I am now greater than Martin Luther, apparently. So thank you guys for the Luther Award.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

It was Boniface. The.

[Jay Dyer]

I meant Bon. Okay, thank you, Boniface. I have to also apologize too, to you guys today, because I'm not. We are exhausted from five weeks of road trip. So I'm. I'm not all mentally fully 100. I'm still super tired. We drove, I think eight hours yesterday to get from Texas to Tennessee. So I'm super tired. But I also want to make this point too. We'll go to another call. So Matt Fried, of course, has always complained that he. Originally he said that ubi, Petrus and J. DY will never be on my channel because we were so bad. And then eventually, of course, he invited UBI on, by the way, I don't care about going on Matt Fried's channel. That's not why I'm saying this. I just want to point out that for years he made this piety move that he was too pious to actually have on myself or anybody from this, from this sphere because we're just so morally reprehensible. This is all these people have. It's, it's so fake and gay. It is so weak. And who does Matt FR have on? The worst representative of the very thing that he says is inadmissible. More facts. Trent Doherty. Yes, the screaming cussing. I want to fight you. J. Dyer, Skittles man was just on net Fred's podcast on the Israeli Warrior. I wonder how much money did Met Fred take from, from Bean Shapiro? I love you, Bean, so much. Could I lick your yamaka? Can I lick, Can I yama lick it? Can I lick your yarmulke? I love you, Bean. And then Ben's like two feet shorter than him and Matt, Fred's like bending over and licking the yamaka. And so of course he's going to have on this creepy, insane Skittles dude, right?

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. After the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials. And there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who was Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

It's tax season and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, tax paying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. Lifelock Monochromatic monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialist will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock identity theft protection for tax season and and beyond. Visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart terms apply.

[Jay Dyer]

Now. And remember what did he lose his mind over? The fact that Cleave was debating together against him and a bisexual creep from the Piers Morgan show? Danny and Cleave said, well, how come you're on the same team as this dude and watch Trent Dougherty lose his mind? But this is okay, according to neat feed of theology on display here today.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Since you have teamed up with a

[Jay Dyer]

bisexual atheist to defend your theology. That's.

[Redeem Zoomer]

That's a piece of move you, you piece of

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

you. I'm just saying.

[Jay Dyer]

Disgusting. I cannot believe that I'm sitting here

[Redeem Zoomer]

and I am seeing somebody who claims

[Jay Dyer]

to be a Christian treat another human

[Redeem Zoomer]

being with such absolute disrespect.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself.

[Jay Dyer]

Look at this. Just insanity. This guy's literally unhinged. A lunatic. Together with the gaytheist dude that I debated on Piers Morgan losing his mind at Cleave, probably because Trent thought he would touch butts or something. I don't know. Well, you're coming.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

You're coming here to.

[Jay Dyer]

You're coming here to defend theology with an atheist that has his entire disgusting.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

And now he's crashing.

[Jay Dyer]

And what is Danny's handle on Streamyard? Bisexual atheist. Literally, his handle is bisexual atheist. And they teamed up to debate. I think the debate was Christians and Muslims worshiping the same God again. And Trent Dougherty absolutely loses it. Did the same thing to me, but ridiculous. Matt Frad and his op. Whatever op he's under. Will would love to platform these people. I don't care about Matt Fred's show. It's gay anyway. But look at the double standard and the ridiculous hypocrisy, dude. They'll platform pro gay dudes, right? But J. Doyer is such a bad actor. I will never, ever interact with that man. Yeah, this is soy rage. But I mean, again, makes sense that Matt Frad would have soy rage on this podcast. And I told you guys for so long he was bad news. I critiqued him endlessly. And how many Roman Catholics. Oh, Dolly got dire. So he.

[Redeem Zoomer]

He.

[Jay Dyer]

He's jealous. He jealous I didn't go to Daily Wire. You freaking frauds. Matt Frad sold out to the Daily Wire. Pints with my manitis was the joke everyone made. And now he's hosting and platforming. Just absolute lunatics. Exactly what we said would happen. Now who is going to apologize to me for this? Do you make your living off of social media? I mean, what do you count as social media? Does everybody who advertises their business, Willard, make their living off of social media? So this is all you roaming Catholics have. Especially when you come into the chat and you act ridiculous like this. All you guys have is personal attacks because you've lost the debate. No Roman Catholics anymore.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Name one.

[Jay Dyer]

When was the last intellectual Roman Catholic debate? And by the way, thanks to Trent Doherty for nailing that final nail into the coffin of the end of Roman Catholic apologetics. There has not been since that. That I'm aware of. Maybe there's some unknown debate. Trent Horn, he's too good, he's too pious to associate with any quote ortho bro. Trent Doherty can't debate. Lost his mind, had to hide out for a year. Voice of reason absolutely collapsed, by the way. How come Trent Horn, he's pious, didn't call out voice of reason? Where was the moral calling out? Because he's a freaking moral cop now. Where was that moral calling out for your own voice of reason? How many Roman Catholics actually called out voice of reason, by the way? Did any of them? So these people are so dishonest, so double standard, so weak, so soy rage that now all that's left is, well, we got numbers and you guys are. We don't like you personal attacks. And the next stage is doxing. Right. So what are the Muslims doing? The Muslims just gave up daw and basically in the God logic circles, they just dox people. How long until the Roman Catholics and these, these lunatics just start going for doxing? Probably. That's probably the next step. Yeah, Tim Gordon and Trent Doherty were the last attempts at a papal defense. And you know, I like, love, love Tim quite a bit, but Tim said the other day when we were on with quite frankly says, I'm done debating the papacy. I'm kind of done debating it too. Because like, what, what's next? Trent. Trent Horn has now, Trent Horn is like the Catholic version of the Women's Temperance League, if you've heard of this. Right. So basically, Protestant evangelical women in the Temperance League wanted to ban alcohol. I'm not saying Trent Horn wants to ban alcohol. I'm just making an analogy. It's called a joke, dummy. That he's gonna, he's gonna go after. Forget the pedo PDF crisis in the Roman Catholic hierarchy. Forget Jeffrey Epstein. No, it's the four letter word crusade. That's the most pressing issue that Trent Horn has seen fit now to make how many, three, four videos now on this topic. And of course, it's very arbitrary and inconsistent because he defended Stephen Colbert saying the F word about Sunday school. That's cool. But if you say the F word in any other context, according to Trent, it. It counts. So Trent is of course our moral arbiter, and he's basically the church lady from Saturday Night Live. This is what this Catholic apologetics has become. Dana Carvey as the church lady. But if you're Roman Catholic, you can do pretty much anything. You can like, dox people. You can like, like, make cartoons of people's wives being graped. You can literally do anything. You can be voice of reason trying to get laid all day long with the cat. The, the people he's catechizing, supposedly. That's all good, dude. Just don't be an ortho bro saying a four letter word. And I hope people can figure out that this is all just cloak. It's all a smokescreen because they have surrendered. Actually debating the issues just like Dawa is basically done. I mean, yeah, Daniel Hikiku is going to do a debate with somebody. God logic, but Daniel Hikachu has lost like the last every debate. So what the hell is even that? Anyway? So that's my last words on Trent.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I just want to point.

[Jay Dyer]

Go ahead. Yeah, Tristana. Okay, well, he will have to actually come to the table and answer for his brother, alleging that he is a short king that lives in the shadow, quote unquote, of the younger.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, what's up, dog?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Let me try this back. I think I didn't understand how the microphone works as my first.

[Jay Dyer]

You can't hear me. I mean, I can hear you, dog. Tom. Howie, what's up, man? Oh, yeah, I forgot. I've totally forgot about Redeem Zoomer. Got totally distracted. Go ahead, man. Tom, I'm. You.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Oh, hi.

[Jay Dyer]

Hey.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Sorry, I thought you're having that other guy speak first there. I don't know where he went.

[Jay Dyer]

He couldn't get his mic working. Go ahead.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, so first off, yeah, I am a Roman Catholic. I. My first, like, real exposure to orthodoxy was my roommate I lived with a couple years ago. And you know, I have a lot of respect for the orthodox faith, Orthodox people. I think it's kind of sad that online debate has devolved to this. You know, ultimately I. I pray we can get to a point where, you know, as Jesus prayed, we can be one as he and the Father are one.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, hold on though, hold on, because do you think Jesus's prayer wasn't heard? I mean, the very line of argumentation there would suggest that Jesus's prayer failed and that his church isn't one.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I don't know that his request presupposes that it, that there wouldn't be any. I mean, obviously there's been schisms.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but that, that means that one group leaves the, the real, the true church.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Sorry, could you say that again?

[Jay Dyer]

The very definition of schism implies and means that one person left the true church.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Church.

[Jay Dyer]

So that doesn't mean the church is actually divided. Yeah, I don't.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I guess I've never thought of it in that way, but you know, at that point.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, I mean, you believe, as a Roman, you believe that the

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Catholic Church is still universal, undivided.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. After the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the blue square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the blue square is one small way to do that.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

It's tax season and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, tax paying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. Lifelock Monochromatic monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialist will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity theft protection. For tax season and and beyond, visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail]. iheart terms apply.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

You know, obviously, we're just back and forth. No, you're the schismatic. I'm the schismatic.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, if I can demonstrate that it's divided, then why would that not be a proof that what you just said is not true? I mean, do you think that should we have the death penalty

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

in certain circumstances?

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but what's the papal teaching on it since John Paul ii,

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

That the. Basically, it's acceptable if that is what it takes to.

[Jay Dyer]

No.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Save society from.

[Jay Dyer]

No, that's not their teaching. All the successive popes since John Paul II have said that. That the death penalty is against the gospel and should not be used in the modern era. In fact, Leo just reiterated that and said, if you're for the death penalty, you're not pro life. So that is false. Now, my point in that is. Well, most.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I don't think that. I don't think that's what the Catechism says, but.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the Catechism actually.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

No opinions on it.

[Jay Dyer]

So how do. Okay, but even if you think you can have your own opinion on it, then how are you united if you're divided on a very basic moral issue? I get.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I get what you're saying, but ultimately,

[Jay Dyer]

do you think there's a lot of

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Catholics expects you to.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you said that there. That you're one and undivided. So, I mean, do a lot of Roman Catholics want the Latin Mass?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

So do all.

[Jay Dyer]

Do a lot of. Don't ask me a question. Don't ask me a too quoque. Do a lot of Roman Catholics want the Latin Mass? Mass?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I don't have a percentage, but I. I would hope so.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Okay, so. And the Vatican is actively suppressing that since Francis and Leo, sadly.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so are. How are you one and undivided when these very basic issues like liturgy and basic ethics that your church is absolutely split on and your church has changed its stance. So what does one one and undivided actually mean for you guys? Just following the Pope, Whatever he says today.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

No, no, no. The infallibility of the Pope doesn't mean that whatever the Pope says offhand is what we need to believe.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, what does Vatican one say the infallibility doctrine is?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I don't know, off the top of my head. What? What?

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so. So you're in a church that you agree with. Rome is the rock and Peter's the rock. But the actual definition of that, you've never bothered to go read the 15 pages of what your church says it is. This blows My mind, like, I just

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

don't have an eidetic memory. I can't, you know, remember.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, well, did you ever read it at all?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

What's that?

[Jay Dyer]

Did you ever read it at all, even if you forgot it? So you've read Vatican One?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

The entirety of Vatican One.

[Jay Dyer]

Now, it's only 15 pages. So. Do you have any idea what Vatican One says, loosely, about papal infallibility?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I couldn't tell you.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, how are you going to tell me what papal infallibility is when you don't know what it is? Okay, he left.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I didn't.

[Jay Dyer]

I thought you left. Excuse me. Go ahead. Somebody else popped up. Go ahead, John.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I was gonna say one thing that Vatican one says, even if you haven't read the entire 15 pages, is there's a phrase that says the first C is judged by no one. And that is an actual quote. So whatever the first C does cannot be questioned by laity or cardinals or anything within that language. It seems like pretty legal language to me. Wouldn't you say, Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, and it's also like. Was it Canon 752, which says that even if you think the teaching is not binding, you still have to submit to it?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

That's right. It says you're the heretic, not the Pope. So it says, go ahead. No, I'm just saying this is really interesting stuff. I. You know, I'm. I should probably read through some of this stuff.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. No, I appreciate your questions, and, you know, I'm not trying to be rude to you or mean to you, but, you know, this is. This is. Think of this as training for debate.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

So if you want to be a competent debater, you want to get into these issues, the things that I'm doing to you, Think of me like a drill sergeant. I'm not hurting you. I'm actually helping you to understand. Well, wait a minute. What's the strongest orthodox claim? So if you want to defend your Catholic position, you would want to know and, you know, hear the steel man of the other position, for those that don't know, the steel man is to give the best, strongest case of the opposition. And because a lot of you guys, Roman Catholic guys out there, that get mad and get. Get, you know, so heated and emotional, it's because you're insecure and you're worried that you might be wrong. Well, the gut reaction, most human beings, the way they react to these kinds of things, is you want to try to attack the person. You want to erect all of these straw men to cover up for an Insecurity that the position might be wrong. So I'm going to encourage you to not do that and to not be. I'm not saying Tom was being this way. I'm just saying in general to not be like a woman, to be emotional or to, to act that way, because it's not actually going to help you guys to be this way. As long as you guys don't steal, man, and try to. You understand what arguments we're making, more and more people are going to keep leaving. That's why ultimately this attitude of Trent and people like this just devolving into this sort of, you know, tone policing. How is this. All this is going to do is keep the lowest tier people in your sphere. Right. You might get a mass appeal, big numbers, and I guess that works if you're grifting, but. But if you actually want committed, serious people, you're not going to retain those people. Right. What does Canon 752 say here of the present day Catholic canon law? It says, although not an ascent of faith, a religious submission of intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff, the Pope or the College of Bishops declares about faith and morals. So it doesn't really matter what the position of the death penalty is. If you want to try to get off into this red herring. Well, it's not binding, it's not infallible. Does that even matter? You still have to abide by it because it is clearly the papal teaching today. That's his ruling, that's the chief priest's ruling in your sect. And if you disagree with it, then you just got to simply shut your mouth. You don't have to give in a religious assent to a thing that you disagree with. Perhaps, and this is just saying perhaps, even if we grant that the teaching on the death penalty isn't magisterial,

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

well,

[Jay Dyer]

you still have to submit to it. So who are any of you Roman Catholics out here claiming that you can reject Francis and Leo and Whoever John Paul II's teaching, you don't. Does this, does this canon afford you the right to do that as a laity? And like John says, this is continuing from. I think it's the Samakian forgery which says no one judges the first sea. Did you know that that's actually a forgery? It's still in Roman Catholic canal, although no one judges the first C, even though it's a forgery. And they'll just say, well, the prince. Go ahead.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

What good is. I mean, what is it? They always Harp on. Oh, well, we need the papacy to make things clearly on faith and morals clear.

[Jay Dyer]

To make it clear.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Clear to clear when it's not clear at all.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, if the papacy's there to make it clear, as like all their pop apologists, car salesmen argue, then how come we don't have clarity on a basic moral issue like the death penalty? Even though we all know that basically the entire second millennium of the Roman Catholic Church taught the depth. I have the Catechism of Trent right there. The Catechism Trent teaches the death penalty.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah. And the Thomistic natural law would teach death.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. It's natural justice. It's natural justice. Now, the modern papacy has said again since Leo. And by the way, I put this on X2. Let me see if I can find. So the John Paul I. Excuse me, John Paul II was the first modern Pope to say, we've gotta change the teaching on the death penalty. Okay? And he publicly talked about it and changed the catechism of the Catholic Church to say that it should not be used. I think there is, or there used to be a statement like, only in extreme circumstances. Now, since that time, you have Francis saying it's against the gospel. That was Francis's terminology. Is against the evangelical teaching to have the death penalty. And then you have Leo restating that the other day saying it's actually against pro life. You can't make this up. It's against me. You're not pro life if you're for the death penalty. This just blows my mind because this is like low tier pacifism. And by the way, I meant to get into this because when we're on the road, because the. The Roman Catholics were memeing me the other day, they thought they had an own. Okay, I do want to mention this really quick and we'll get to some more calls and we will get back to. I forgot about Redeem Zoomer. So hold on. What was. What was the low tier Roman Catholic thing the other day when they were melting down on Instagram? By the way, if you think Trent's bad, dude, the Tick Tock and Instagram Catholic meme apologetics, it's the lowest tier stuff, dude. Okay, so here's their meme they put up. This is supposed to be. So. So the context is Leo says to end the war in Iran, which I know this is going to be hard for a lot of you Roman Catholics to follow along with a basic line of argument, but just try, okay? You guys are Muslims. I know. Just try following along with a basic argument Francis's reason.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea, after the Big Game like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the Big Game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

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[Jay Dyer]

is because no one who wages war is just in God's eyes, right? So war in general at all is not accepted by God. Francis said I was not arguing that we should support the war in Iran, you dummies. I have done probably 50 podcasts against the war in Iran, so I agree with Francis, I mean Leo, that we should not have a war in Iran. But what's the problem is that France, Leo and Francis, his arguments are that war can never be just hello, your church taught just war for a thousand years. So which one is it? So this dumb meme is responding to me saying, I guess the medieval popes who had standing armies were never heard by God. Then by that line of argument, these people were too dumb to follow that, thinking that I was saying that we're supposed to support Trump's Zio war, even though I've done 50 freaking podcasts at least. Against it. I went on huge podcasts twice. No, actually, more than that. Kiriaku's podcast, we just did that against it. Fourth hour of Lord Voldemort for a year. Against it or so however many. It's eight months, nine months, whatever. It's been twice on the Hodge twins. Against it.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

It.

[Jay Dyer]

They have millions of followers and I'm sure my own channel, probably 30 live streams against it. I mean, it's so stupid, right? But they don't care about any of that. And they were actually DMing me saying how much? How you like your 7,000. You enjoying your $7,000? What are you buying with your 7K? Okay, what does Francis say? The death penalty is inadmissible. The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has made changes to the Catholic Catechism. So even John Paul, who was against it, his little clause about some extreme cases, they don't believe that anymore. And here's Francis right here. Vatican News. Here's Leo a few months ago. The death penalty is not pro life. Conflating murder with killing. Murder is a crime, but not all killing is a crime. I mean this is like basic legal distinctions which tells you that they're not dumb. Do you think people at the Vatican don't know the difference between the crime of murder and the idea of killing when they had a freaking natural justice teaching for centuries about the death penalty? Of course they know this. Everyone knows the Roman Catholic Church has a just war doctrine. Tim Gordon went on quite frankly with me the other day and literally just expounded the entire Roman Catholic Thomistic just war doctrine. Okay, they don't believe that anymore. Pope Leo rejects the claim that God justifies wars. Okay, then God didn't justify any papal Crusades or individual Papal states wars. I asked, I told the people in the comments who were losing their minds. All these 20 year old gen Z idiot Catholics going after me. I said, have any of you looked up the Papal States wars? They don't even know what I'm talking about. They don't know what that is. The Papal States waged war many times in history. And I think it's always a pretty sure sign of just inability to reason and low iq. Because it's the same with Muslims. When a person can't understand an internal critique, they can't understand that. I'm not arguing for the war in Iran, you idiots. I'm pointing out the inconsistency in the Catholic change of doctrine. Obviously. I mean, it's Right there. We'll go to Henry, and then we'll go back to Redeem Zoomer. Henry, I'm you. Henry, do you want to unmute, bro? You've been waiting that whole time and you didn't turn your mic on? Come on now. Ryan, what's up?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I'm Ryan, though. You said Henry.

[Jay Dyer]

I said Ryan after Henry.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I didn't hear you say that. Sorry.

[Jay Dyer]

It's okay. What's up?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Microphones. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. First of all, I gotta apologize for the little bro comment. I have to do that. I hate Gen Z speak. And it just came out. I thought you were attacking that classicist guy without knowing that what he. What his supposed.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, I remember. I remember. Yeah. I remember our interaction know.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

And. And dude, once I realized that you were potentially trying to get him on here, so 2. Poke holes into his stuff. I. I completely agree with that. I think there's a lot of controlled op accounts now. Everybody knows that. Anyway, to get to kind of what I want to say, and I first have to, you know, say I have a lot of respect for you because I've been part of the same communities that you've been. Like, I've met Mark Pasio before. I've had conversations with, you know, people like Derek Rose and John Vibes and. And just that. That kind of conspiracy community. I never truly drank their Kool Aid, not to demean what they stand for, but I. You know, we all hear the things about maybe still part of the Church of Satan or whatever, all those kind of conspiracies about conspiracies or whatever. Anyway, the point that I'm making of this is that when I saw you convert to Christianity from. Because I remembered you exclusively as an esoterica kind of guy, and I loved, you know, your stuff, and I saw you, you know, convert to Christianity, and I was like, oh, this is awesome. We're gonna have a. A sword wielder, so to speak. Right.

[Jay Dyer]

And are you mixing me up with somebody? Because, I mean, I did a lot of, like, esoteric movie analysis, but, I mean, maybe in 2013, 14. I flirted with Neoplatonism, but I was never, like, an as. I'm not sure what you mean. Like an estate esoterica guy.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

It might be. It might be a miss. I never remember Jay like that. It might be a mislabel. What I'm saying is that you would be familiar with some of these people because.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Stuff like that.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I. I don't know Mark Pazio, but I know Richard Grove. We've been friends for a long time. And Richard and Mark. Richard and Mark are really good friends.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Okay, cool, cool. But again, all this to say is that I, I saw how you, like, applied. Hide that rigor. That same rigor that you, you know, learned from your master's in English. Now I got a bachelor's in English. I like how.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, let me, let me, let me give you a caveat here because the atheists will call me a liar and a con man if I don't tell you that technically my master's is ABT or abd, which is all but thesis or all but dissertation, because I, I quit in the middle of the dissertation. So my two years of master's work is done. However, I did not complete the master's thesis itself because if I don't say that, they will clip it and call me a con man because I put abt.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Fair. Fair. And I'm, I'm not here to do it.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't care. Dude, go ahead. It didn't do anything. Nobody cared. But go ahead.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Cool. Cool. And, but the point I'm making is that, like, I love how you bring the sword. Like, with your English background, with your background in researching esoterica, you can bring this.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I went to, I went to you university. I don't know if you saw the debate with.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

So I debated black Hebrew Israelite. And he said this went to the. You just brought to the business university. And I did get my PhD from there. So my normal university, I did not complete the masters, but I did get my BNU PhD. Go ahead. Sorry.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

That's cool. No, that's great. I'm glad that you cleared that up. But you understand my point. Like, I, I love that because I'm more of the. I don't outsource my thinking to any one person, but I do really like Charles Carroll and what he. A lot of this.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Like who.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

He kind of avoids the nastiness and all the news, so.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, Charles Carol md.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

All these people mde.

[Jay Dyer]

Charles Carol.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, gotcha.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

He's awesome. And so I kind of have retreated from like a lot of these, the silly people that you're talking about that were ill prepared for debates. I don't, I didn't even recognize their names because I've disconnected so much. But the point is, is that in my own growth, like, because like I said, I was kind of, you know, interested in esoterica. I have an English degree, so I, I know how easy it is to wipe the floor with people just rhetorically and all that kind of stuff. What I found in myself, like, I have to ask myself, do I desire to put something out in the world to pleasure my own ego, or is it truly for the glory of God alone? I hear, I feel like I hear that sometimes with you. It's almost like you're trying to, you know, pleasure your own ego. And you love being right more than really like trying to save souls.

[Jay Dyer]

And how do you, well, how do you know people's motives? Like, how do you. This is what I don't.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I don't. I'm just saying that that's the feeling I get. And that's what this is.

[Chelsea Handler]

Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea after the Big Game, like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials. And there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the blue square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue square is one small way to do that.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

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[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Ever since I've felt this way, I guess a couple years I thought this about you and I've always just kind of wanted to, to ask. Now if, if you want to get into a debate type thing, I think Simply, I, I believe that Christianity is to Judaism what perspicuity is to pill polism. And I hear, I just hear a lot of like pillpole hair splitting when it comes to like, oh, this father, this book, this, this priest is that I, I believe in the perspicuity of scripture. I think it's, it's meant to be easily understood. And the message of salvation is it can be easily understood.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, this is just, you know, I mean, you seem like a cool guy, but this is just like the standard, just low tier evangelical bull crap that always comes up. It's just super annoying. And it's very, It's. It's. You agree? Well, super. It's a, it's super effeminate to come on here and be like, like, you have bad motives. But also Christianity is just simple.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

You didn't claim you had bad motives. I asked you.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, you did. You said. It seems to me like you are just here for your ego. And I'm like, I wanted to hear your. Yeah, but don't you understand that like when you, when a person, when you lead with that, that's like the most passive aggressive effeminate thing ever. So you probably shouldn't follow me because I don't think this, what I do and what I talk about is just not for. All right, so good job. So have fun. Have fun with your, have fun with your low tier stuff.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

I'm gonna actually accept that argument and say what if I say it this way for the sake of the argument. There is perspicutous scripture, which is an own on Protestants, because then, then why

[Jay Dyer]

are they divided so clear?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

How is it they get.

[Jay Dyer]

Then why are you divided?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Everything wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. And why are they so divided?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, so I'll give it to them. Sure. Scripture is clear. That's. That's an L for you. Because. Which is what I always say when they say, let's go to Scripture. Because it's so clear. If you're retarded and you can't read, the problem's obviously not the text. The problem's you.

[Jay Dyer]

I thought I could. Exactly. I thought I could find maybe the, the clip where I did graduate from bnu, but I don't know where that clip is. So somebody could find it in my Hebrew Israelite debate. So. But that, that meant that. Man.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

One, one thing, one thing I want to say is that the dude is wrong. Because as I was telling you the other day when we were hanging out, is that when me and you first started talking on the interwebs back 10, 11 years ago. So you were a little bit too Christian for me in my agnostic phase. So I don't know what that guy was talking about.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I'm just going to start saying, okay, I'm. I'm evil.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

You.

[Jay Dyer]

You guys have got me now. What? What? How does that solve any of the questions that are being raised here?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

And by the way, maybe that gentleman needs just some social etiquette classes. Like you said, they don't lead with. Don't say something like that. Even if you believe that. That.

[Jay Dyer]

Remember that guy who came on and was like, man, I love, I love stuff you do. I love what you talk about. How are you going to answer to our heavenly Father when he asks you why you were so unrighteous to the way that you dealt with people? How are you going to answer, Jay? Like me trying to put me on moral trial. Dude, that's so gay, man. It's just so freaking gay. And who else in the, in, in any other domain, like, do you imagine doing this in any other domain at all? Anywhere? Right? It's like only with, with philosophy or intellectual topics or, you know, ethical social topics. Do people.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Great skits. Do people.

[Jay Dyer]

Come on. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna imagine going into a courtroom or going into a classroom with your professor and be like, father Deacon Ananias, I want you to answer for the irreverent jokes that you've made on the Internet. And how are you going to answer before God? Imagine your student coming into the professor, your domain and asking you that.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Actually, no, actually, I think that was pretty awesome.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, but it would be funny.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

But it's like, but what about a job interview? That would be funny too.

[Jay Dyer]

I wanna, I want you. It would be funny actually, that, yeah. You're going in to like, get a job at. Yeah, I'm happy to work for Starbucks, but I would like you guys to answer for your corporate greetings and your lack of DEI policies. And actually, but that would probably work, right? Starbucks would probably be like, oh, yes, actually, we'll make you a manager.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

That's great.

[Jay Dyer]

But why do people. Why do, like, it's, it's a super passive aggressive, just ridiculous thing to do. Like, I, it would never occur to me to go into a person's chat or to a show or to a live stream or whatever in like, like, the first thing I say is like, yeah, like, why do you have such wicked motives? I'm not saying that you do, but I want you to answer for what appears to be wicked motives. But I'm not saying that you have them, but why do you have them, by the way?

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

G.R. shapiro pretty much did that.

[Jay Dyer]

It's exactly what the left. The leftists only do this. That's what their. That's their whole.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Oh, they do it to me all the time too. Like, this is. I can't believe somebody in the priesthood. I can't believe a deacon would speak this way. It's like, because I'm a man. Like, how about that? Like we all saw Gran Torino. Now I'm of course, I'm not saying, you know, as clergy can, you know, use foul language and that's good or something like that. But what did you notice in Gran Torino? Guys roast each other. Like it's actually a masculine. So all these people complain. I talked to the priests up here about this too. They speak like men. And they've chastised other people who have tried to tone police and be like, well, you're. You're an effeminate or you're a.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, imagine being in the military and like, you know, think about a drill sergeant, right? Imagine being prepared for warfare. And, and, and you're like, yeah, I just don't appreciate the way that you as a drill sergeant are speaking, speaking to me. And I would just like you to take some time and investigate your motives and be like, dude, get out of here.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Ryan Darrow and I were talking about this. They actually have that in the military now. You can hold up a card if it's like too aggressive and you can. So now it's all just kind of play acting. But if like it makes anybody feel uncomfortable like in the military now you can actually pull up a card and be like, actually, this is offending me.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, yeah, there we go. That's why F. That's why Colonel Douglas McGregor says the military has basically been made fake and gay now. So. And by the by design. So yeah, I mean, look, you know, we just did an interview with extremely prominent former CIA operative John Kaku. And I'm not asking you whether you morally accept the CIA, but if you listen to the stories that he tells about the things that he went through through and what they have to deal with in other countries. And I'm not pro CIA, I'm like super critical to CIA, but just from his vantage point involved in those operations and who you have to work with and the, the extremes of the leftists in Greece where he was typically having to deal with really extreme leftists. Like imagine having that sort of ridiculous attitude for a profession. A profession like that right. Just. I'm just trying to get you to think about the real world and how, how it really works, how brutal it is, how difficult it is versus this bizarre. I don't even. It's just a weird soy attitude online of like. Yeah, but did you say a four letter word? I mean, it's just so weird. It's just bizarre. Let's go. Let's do a little bit more of redeemed zoomer because we're never going to finish it.

[Redeem Zoomer]

And in my defense, it's a pretty new word. I went on Google Engram and it's like you can see

[Jay Dyer]

fda. Apparently normative authority is a new word. So you're playing tricks here with using these new words.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

So crazy.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, dude, it's like, it's from philosophy. It's. It's from ethics. Like, this is not. Yeah, there's going to be new words in analytical philosophy because they didn't do analytical philosophy in the ancient world. It's like, this is a new. He's googling to see if this is a new word. I think maybe FDA has done a trick on all of us. This. All the. You're actually conning us with your fancy philosophy words.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, that's right. It's semantic sorcery. What is philosophy? Listen to my words that I just made up.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you have been on record saying that philosophy is a lot of semantic sorcery. So maybe you're actually doing it with these terms like normative authorities.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, a master sorcerer.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I don't see the word normativity in the church, Father. So there you go.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Normative authority is a, A pretty.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Have this idea. We've come across this before too, where like the word's not there. It's another variation of the word concept.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

It's like, how dare you actually use language and try to, you know, convey ideas.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, the word. It's the. It's the idea that matters. Right.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

It's absurd word.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you couldn't translate the Bible if this was the case. Right. Why would you even put the Bible into the vernacular if you couldn't find equivalent concepts that are other languages? It's so silly.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Bibles all different words.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Recent concept. Because it has to do with like postmodernism. It's like, what. What's the difference between.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, because normative authority occurs in analytical philosophy about postmodernism. That's a postmodern word. This is so low tier, dude.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Norm of authority.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't. Yeah, I don't even think it's a postmodern word. Like he's just saying this because he looked it up.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Analytic philosophers are definitely not postmoderns.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea, after the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate, and it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the Big Game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

It's tax season and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity theft Protection for tax season and beyond. Visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart term supply

[Jay Dyer]

he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Redeem Zoomer]

He doesn't know Central authority like this wasn't a category in the Times of the Reformers, so you can't really Actually,

[Jay Dyer]

it is a category in the Times of the Reformers. And I have a book that Perry Robinson recommended about the question of this type of authority during the times of the Reformers.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well, hey, books are just another example of made up words. So.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, this is a Protestant. I think it's an academic book. Dang it. Where did I put it though? I think I put it on the other shelf. Let me find this book.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Said books are stupid.

[Jay Dyer]

J who did? Andrew Tate didn't, but I didn't. Tim Pool say something similar to he's like, I don't read books, okay? I don't give information for books. Books, actually.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Books are for stupid people.

[Jay Dyer]

Let me see if I have this, because this actually would immediately refute what he's talking about. Continue, Father Deacon.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Yeah, it's like idiocracy. Books are for facts.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, so, hey, I'm on YouTube, so you got to be careful with what terminology? FDA, please. But cigarettes. So you just heard Redeem Zoomer. You just heard Redeem Zoomer say that normative authority was not a category at the time of the reformers. However, in modern day Protestant academic literature, and thanks to Perry Robinson for this recommendation, oh, they actually write books on the problem of authority in the Continental reformers. So again, Redeem, Redeem Zoomerman, you got to get with what's actually going on in your own own literature before you start trying to do these critique responses.

[Redeem Zoomer]

They blame me for not knowing exactly what normative authority was. I was confused. But I still need to answer that question somehow. The way I would answer that question today is the Church, meaning the magisterium of the Church, has normative authority to bind you to a decision on the.

[Jay Dyer]

The magisterium of the Church. What? I mean, I know we. We speak of the magisterial reformer and the Roman Catholic Church has an idea of magisterium, but where in his modern Calvinist teaching is there a magisterium of the cat of the Calvinist churches? Go ahead, fda.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well, it's funny that he's talking to us about this. As far as I know, we don't even use that term.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a Western term. I mean, maybe there's like Protestant Calvinist that uses. I've never heard this used, though. But maybe it does exist. But he says the. It's the magisterium of the Church. So is he suddenly a Roman Catholic Calvinist? No. Like, what does this mean?

[Redeem Zoomer]

Canon? Even though it's not infallible, there can be fallible normative authorities that.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but that was just to say what I was saying. So because a authority is fallible, it doesn't mean that it's not an authority. And this is Father Deacon's point that, you know, since Descartes, you have this sort of unrealistic expectation in terms of Enlightenment epistemology of perhaps we'll ground our knowledge. Knowledge and absolute certitude. Infallible, indubitable certitude.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

But most modern philosophers and epistemologists, whether they're Christian or not, they tend to not really expect that level of Certitude, because it's kind of not possible. So I think it might be better to speak of something like the highest possible human certitude, which I would say is things like divine revelation or things like transcendental categories. Those would be my examples. Other things would be lesser types of certitude, but you would still have good warrant to believe those things. Right. So in other words, could I have good warrants to believe that my local Orthodox priest probably has a better idea about what Orthodox theology is than other people? Yes. Does that mean that he's infallible? No, but infallibility is not what's required to have normative authority. Go ahead. Fda.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well, it's. Yeah. And it's not even required for knowledge to like, know something. Anyways, Go ahead.

[Jay Dyer]

So let's listen in.

[Redeem Zoomer]

That'd be my answer. Let's keep going. My point is that God can use fallible means to deliver infallible authority, the Church.

[Jay Dyer]

So basically he conceded the point that I was making. It took him four minutes to just concede the point that, yeah, you can have normative authority. Okay, thank you. Now he says, but that's not needed for the. But the problem is that for the Protestant Calvinist, the Protestant Bible is the only infallible authority. You see, that's the problem here. So his own Calvinist confessions relegate the text of Scripture to the only infallible authority. That's the point here. So really he's just struggling with kind of getting a basic distinction that he didn't get in the debate, and he's admitting that. But is he going to be able to address the fact that classical Reformation teaching equates infallibility only to the Protestant

[Redeem Zoomer]

canonical texts is fallible the Church means by which God with multiple canons.

[Jay Dyer]

There's a development, as you admitted, over multiple centuries. How do you know that? The 4th, 5th, 6th century decision, which by the way is not the Protestant canon, it includes the Deutero canon when Trollo in the seventh.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Now that's not exactly true. The Orthodox today still don't have a uniform canon. Some people use the canon.

[Jay Dyer]

So again, he's expecting that the Orthodox have to have the same statement on what the canon is to make it quote a canon. As if we're supposed to have the Protestant doctrine sola scriptura for the Orthodox position. There's nothing wrong with a little bit of flexibility about the Russian Bibles and what they have in their canon. Or, you know, could you say that the Book of Enoch is not canonical, but has some True tradition. Same with Proto Evangelium of James, of course. But that's not a problem for our position. When it's loose, a little bit loose and flexible, it is a problem for his position. So now he's going back to saying, saying you don't have a canon because you have flexibility. No, no. The fact that there's flexibility does not mean we don't have a canon. It just means it's not your conception of a solo scriptura version of the

[Redeem Zoomer]

canon Trollo, which includes the Deuterocanon. But some people, like St. Philip of Moscow in the 1600s or Orthodox dogmatic Theology by Michael Pomazonski, actually still use the 66 book Protestant.

[Jay Dyer]

That is also not true. You can read the Catechism of Fillert itself and it says we simply call these other books, which we do use Deuterocanon. The word Deuterocanon means secondary canon. You can go all the way back to Saint Athanasius and Saint Athanasius says, yeah, they're deuterocanonical. They're a secondary canon. That means they don't have as much importance than the other books have. So just like the Gospels have a preeminence in the liturgy, it doesn't mean, because the Gospels have a preeminence that, that we don't follow Paul's epistles. Right? Paul's epistles are read and the other apostles epistles are read in the, in the readings in the liturgy, but they're not given the preeminence that the Gospels are given. So there's a tier of authority and importance and hierarchy. Just like we still read the Torah, we still read the prophets, but the Gospels have preeminence over that. So none of that means, though, that we don't have the deutero canon. We do. And even Metropolitan Fillerette's Catechism says they're a deutero canon. Secondary canon doesn't mean they're not in the canon. So it's just a basic misunderstanding. And he's just pulling from the standard Protestant and Roman Catholic low tier gotchas against us. But let's look at.

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[Jay Dyer]

what Fillert's Canon actually his catechism says. So he left out, as you can see here, what Filleret goes on to say about the Deuterocanonical texts. He goes on to say, what about these last books? Athanasius says they are to be appointed and the fathers to be read to the proselyte. Proselytes preparing for admission into the Church. Do any Calvinists read the Deuterocanonical text to prepare their converts for admission into the Catholic Church? No. And he left this out. Why would he leave this out? Because he went from a Protestant or Catholic gotcha as if this was a gotcha when the rest of the Catechism goes on to say they are not canonical in the same way as the other books, but they are still canonical because they're read to the catechumens. We wouldn't catechize people with the books if they weren't part of the canon. So he should have done more homework.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Canon and the Orthodox say it's like kind of like oikonomy. It's like you could do this, you could do that. So at least Protestants haven't agreed upon canon, which the orthodox don't. But let's keep it.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but again, that's just assuming that your argument is correct and that there must be a fixed, absolutely quote, infallible canon. When we don't make that argument, you do. So he's doing a. He's basically trying to argue the Protestant position onto the calf, the Orthodox conception of the canon, which again is. Yeah, but we don't accept what you think canon means and what it must be epistemically. So he should have done a little more research on that. But let's see where he goes next. Council affirm the Orthodox canon. How do you know that that's the wrong canon? Because you don't have that canon. You have a different canon.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Are you talking about like the differences between the Protestant Orthodox hands today? Yeah. So the, the problem of different canons is not solved just because you're Orthodox because the Orthodox and the Catholics and the Ethiopians have different cans from each other. So how do you know the Catholics aren't right?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I have an argument because I believe in the normative authority of the church. And if you don't believe in the normal authority of the church, it's not. It's a problem for you.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Not for me.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Okay. I believe in the normative authority of the Church. Back then I didn't know what that was. I believe the church has the authority to determine the kittens. In a sense, I think that which church, the. The church community. There are schisms when people can't agree on certain things. But yeah, so back then I had more of the ecumenist mindset and I wasn't willing to say my church community, my church communion is.

[Jay Dyer]

He just mentioned magisterium a minute ago. So what Catholic or what Calvinist church teaches the idea of a Protestant magisterium

[Redeem Zoomer]

authoritative in a unique way. So I would say the communion of mainline Protestantism, which includes.

[Jay Dyer]

Includes 300 million the communion of mainline Protestants. So this is what he's gone to now. He said a minute ago he was more ecumenist and he's saying now the mainline Protestant communion. There's no such thing as the mainline Protestant communion. This is a complete fiction. It doesn't exist. Do you think Anabaptists are in communion with high church Anglicans? This is so low tier and stupid dude.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Members globally and most of it's not liberal, as Jay Dyer knows, because he believes large jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church are hijacked. He knows that jurisdictions of the church can be hijacked and it can still be.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but this is a false equivalence because even if there are liberal jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church that's still decentralized. You could have A Bay's Greek Orthodox priest and you could have a liberal Rokor priest. So it has nothing really to do with the jurisdictions. As if jurisdictions are equivalent to Protestant denominations. No, they're not. You can go to an Orthodox church which will teach you the same doctrine, the same liturgy across the board regardless of the individual priests. You won't even get correct Christology or trinitarian theology or ecclesiology amongst the thousands of Protestant sects. This is absolutely an insane equivalence here. Oh, I'm in communion with a magisterium of Protestants. Protestants are not even in communion. This is a completely made up fiction. I mean Luther would kill Anabaptists over baptism. So the fact that today's Protestant gibberish world doesn't kill each other, it doesn't make them in communion because they're not killing each other. And where was the idea that there's a general Protestant communion union who even came up with this site? That's actually an ecumenist idea. I mean maybe he could go to Anglican branch theory, but he's not an Anglican. And Anglicans now have T, R A N Z bishops and women bishops. They just elected a woman head of the Church of England. By the way. They already. For those that don't know. Hold on. For those that don't know, they already had a woman head of the church. Queen Elizabeth. The Queen was the official head of the church. So they already had a woman church. Go ahead.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

It's like shape shifting theology.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Well now I'm this because I'm going to use this to make my argument and now.

[Jay Dyer]

No, he literally, he literally went over here now. He literally went to quote seminary. I don't know if he's a Reformed theological seminary or Westminster. Wherever he went to try to figure out a way to make it work.

[John (Orthodox interlocutor)]

Work.

[Jay Dyer]

It's system building

[Redeem Zoomer]

the church during that time because of the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and his ecumenism. J. Dyrus pointed that out and he knows that that does not invalidate the.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, this is a false equivalence between ecumenism within the Orthodox Church as an error versus thousands of different Protestant sects that disagree on fundamental teachings like the deity of Christ. By the way, the PC USA had a statement denying and questioning the deed of Christ even in the 1960s. So this has been a long time problem in the Protestant world. To equate that to the Patriarch being a liberal is a false equivalence Orthodox church.

[Redeem Zoomer]

So liberalism within the mainline Protestant communion, especially if it's not the majority, would not invalidate the mainline Protestant communion.

[Jay Dyer]

So I would there is no mainline Protestant communion. That's a completely made up fiction.

[Redeem Zoomer]

Let's say the community that decides the Scriptures.

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, the very idea of communion that means eucharistic celebration. It's divorced from the even historic meaning of the word communion. When the piss the when the post Apostolic Fathers talk about like Ignatius or Irenaeus, they talk about us all partaking

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