Pt 2 - DEBATE! ALIEN DISCLOSURE, Redeemed Zoomer Replies, Trent Horn, PSA, Gladio,, MEGA PODCAST TOUR!

Summary

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Jay’sAnalysis – DEBATE: Alien Disclosure, Protestantism, and Church Authority (Pt 2)

Host: Jay Dyer
Guests/Co-hosts: Alex, Father Deacon, various call-in participants
Date: April 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Jay Dyer’s lively audio selections from a recent “mega podcast tour” — a sprawling, multi-topic open debate centering on Protestantism, church authority, soteriology (salvation), and theology, with tangents into cultural and internet phenomena, Orthodox conversion stories, and humorous moments. The majority of the episode is a critique of so-called “Redeemed Zoomer’s” evolving Protestant positions, especially in debate with Orthodox and Catholic doctrine, punctuated by call-in Q&A, banter, and inside jokes, all delivered in Jay’s irreverent and combative yet engaging style.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Protestantism and the Challenge of Church Authority

• Communion & Church Structure:

  • Jay Dyer argues that classical Protestantism fundamentally rejects an ecclesial Eucharistic altar, and thus cannot claim genuine communion in the historical church sense. Instead, Protestants "update the term" to a looser "we all love Jesus" definition.
    • “It’s not an intellectual ascent to propositions. It’s a eucharistic ecclesial Episcopal communion.” (01:16)
  • Mainline Protestant Unity Critique:
    • Jay lampoons the notion that there is a coherent "mainline Protestantism," citing divisions over canon, doctrine, and even basic issues such as the ordination of women.
    • “There is no such thing as mainline Protestantism that all the Protestant sects share. It doesn't exist.” (01:55)
    • Father Deacon and Jay underscore that Protestant factions splinter endlessly for even minor reasons, dismissing claims to real institutional authority.
    • “This is all silly. It's so silly. And he's got to know this, right? About modern Presbyterianism. ...It’s as crazy as the Sedevacantist world.” (46:41)

• The Biblical Canon:

  • Jay argues Protestants do not even agree on the canon (scriptural books), highlighting Anglican inclusion of the Deuterocanon and Reformed animosity to such teachings.
    • “So who's right? Is it okay as an Anglican to have the deuterocanonical text...or is that heresy?” (02:39)
    • Father Deacon and Jay agree that the early church "didn’t really agree on the canon" and that infallible authority claims fall apart given post-schism fragmentation.
    • “If your only thing that's infallible is the...Protestant canon, but it turns out the canon is actually fallible, then it doesn't work to say it's an infallible list. It's a fallible collection of infallible books. That’s nonsense.” (04:18)

• Sola Scriptura & Private Interpretation:

  • Jay targets the Protestant belief in the “right of private interpretation,” connecting it to Enlightenment and classical liberal ideas of rights, and showing how it undermines any possibility of a cohesive, authoritative church.
    • “Do the Church Fathers and the councils teach you have the right of private interpretation? That's the question here.” (31:49)
    • “You can't have every layman having the right to interpret the Scriptures for himself AND a normative authority that can bind people's consciences. Those are mutually exclusive ideas.” (38:26)

2. Soteriology: Monergism, Calvinism, and Christological Heresies

• Monergism vs. Synergism:

  • Jay exposes confusion in Protestant (Calvinist) soteriology—specifically, the notion of monergism (salvation is entirely the work of God), which he equates with the heresy of “monoenergism” rejected by ancient church councils.
    • “My argument was that monergism in Christology is, for example, monoenergism in soteriology.” (50:34)
    • Cites classic Calvinist theologians (Berkhof, Hodge, Turretin) who affirm monergism.
    • “Calvinists call their websites monergism.com. They wouldn't do that if Calvinists didn't teach monergism.” (53:33)
  • Father Deacon and Alex stress that Protestant confessional standards (e.g., Westminster Confession, Canons of Dort) dogmatically teach regeneration is solely the work of God—cooperation comes only after.

• Penal Substitution & the “Damned Christ” Doctrine:

  • Jay and guests criticize the classic Reformed atonement view that claims Christ suffered damnation or hell on the cross, asserting this splits the Trinity or leads to Nestorianism.
    • Jay directly quotes leading Calvinist voices (John Piper, MacArthur, Sproul, Luther, Calvin) who say Christ was "damned" or underwent the equivalent.
    • “John Piper saying when Jesus cried, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? It was the scream of the damned. Jesus was damned in our place.” (62:36)
    • Argues: either the Son is severed from the Father (= anti-Trinitarian), or a "human person" is damned (= Nestorian dual-person error).
      • “If he's a divine person and he's damned by the Father, then he no longer indwells the Father... that's anti trinitarian.” (103:46)

• Orthodox Understanding:

  • Jay and Father Deacon clarify Orthodox teaching: Christ willingly submits to death (the separation of soul and body), but never separation from the Godhead or damnation in a spiritual sense. Western misunderstandings are traced to mistaken or careless readings in the Fathers.

3. Ecclesiology, Heresy, and Schism

• No United Protestant “Church”:

  • Jay humorously notes the infinite splits among Presbyterian bodies (RPCUS, RPCNA, PCA, OPC, etc.)—noting schisms arise over issues as trivial as the color of the carpet!
    • “Anybody who knows that world knows that they will split over the color of the carpet and create a new presbytery over the color of the carpet. I'm not joking.” (46:41)

• Episcopacy & Historical Development:

  • Jay calls out the dubious Protestant appeal to John Henry Newman (a Catholic) to argue for “developed papacy”—noting this is self-defeating for Protestant ecclesiology.
    • “Why does any Orthodox person or Protestant person care what John Henry Newman said?” (47:59)

4. Philosophical/Epistemological Arguments

• Naturalism vs. Christian Epistemology:

  • Jay and Alex field a call-in challenge from a self-identified naturalist, pressing them on justification for metaphysics and knowledge.
    • Jay asserts: “On naturalism, you can't justify any knowledge, logic, or universals.” (122:48)
    • “There’s no brute facts. …Evidence needs to be interpreted. It doesn't just speak for itself.” (126:07–126:19)

• TAG (Transcendental Argument for God):

  • Jay advances the presuppositionalist argument for the uniqueness and necessity of the Christian paradigm for truth and intelligibility.
    • “The tag argument is an argument for the Christian paradigm. It's not an argument just for an abstracted conception of a deity.” (87:49)

5. Orthodox Conversion, Parish Questions, and Q&A

• Many listeners express gratitude to Jay for his role in their conversion to Orthodoxy, or seek practical advice on parish selection, doctrine, and apologetics.

  • Jay confirms the essential status of communion with saints and praying for each other.
  • On differences in local Orthodox churches and how to navigate liberal/progressive clergy: “You have to make that decision... when there's a red line in the sand, go to a different parish.”

• Liturgical, Canon Law, and Iconography:

  • Jay tackles subtleties of the word “Eucharistia” in the biblical Greek (Hebrews 13), guidance on the Seventh Ecumenical Council and iconology, and other “inside baseball” church history/Greek language details for the curious.

6. Humor, Banter, Internet Culture & Self-Deprecation

• Jay and Alex riff on everything from Calvinist bowties, “Peaky Grinders,” fake Nickelback lyrics, and call-in trolls.
• Running jokes about Orthodox “handlers,” Calvinist splits, and inside jokes about viewers’ screen names.
  • “The PC USA was like, it's like the biggest gay church on the planet and now it's the Episcopals... How are you in communion with people that are women bishops?” (03:21)
  • “If you want to support the super chats, you can do so through streamlabs right there. ... I will share them with FDA because he's a gracious professor of word salad and trickery and sorcery.” (08:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Communion & Altar:
  • “Baptists do not believe in a Eucharist. They do not have an altar. How are you going to be in communion with people that don't have an altar? ... That's not what communion means.” — Jay Dyer (01:16)
• On Protestant Schism:
  • “Anybody who knows that ridiculous world knows that they will split over the color of the carpet and create a new presbytery over the color of the carpet.” — Jay Dyer (46:41)
• On Private Interpretation vs. Authority:
  • “You can't have every layman having the right to interpret the Scriptures for himself AND a normative authority that can bind people's consciences. Those are mutually exclusive ideas.” — Jay Dyer (38:26)
• On Calvinist Monergism:
  • "Calvinists call their websites monergism.com, bro. They wouldn't do that if Calvinists didn't teach monergism." — Jay Dyer (53:33)
• On “Damned Christ” Doctrine:
  • “John Piper saying when Jesus cried, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? It was the scream of the damned. Jesus was damned in our place.” — Jay Dyer (62:36)
  • “If he's a divine person and he's damned by the Father, then he no longer indwells the Father, the Father no longer indwells him. ... So that's anti trinitarian.” — Jay Dyer (103:46)
• On Evidence and Worldview:
  • “Evidence needs to be interpreted. It doesn't just speak for itself.” — Jay Dyer (126:19)
  • “So like a photograph of a murderer stabbing somebody is not proof of that action has to be interpreted? Absolutely.” — Alex (127:14)
• On Orthodox Conversion & Parish Choice:
  • “I can't say where you should and shouldn't go to church because it really should be based on the local church... You have to make that decision.” — Jay Dyer (129:00)
• On Why Protestants Reject Authority:
  • “Do you think at the Council of Nicaea they thought that everybody has the right to private interpretation...? No, you're bound by this interpretation and if you don't accept it, well then you're outside of the Church.” — Jay Dyer (31:49)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Early Protestant/Communion Critique: 01:16–05:57
• Canon, Sola Scriptura, and Protestant Disunity: 02:22–07:16
• Superchats & Humor Break: 07:16–11:33
• Monergism & Soteriology: 50:29–59:11
• Penal Substitution/Damned Christ: 60:09–67:13, replayed 102:50–104:45
• Q&A: Greek Word for "Eucharist" in Hebrews 13: 72:30–76:57
• Iconoclasm, Seventh Ecumenical Council, and Energies: 78:28–82:36
• Naturalism, Knowledge & Worldview Clash: 122:42–127:28
• Orthodox Parish Selection (Greek Parishes controversy): 127:53–130:44

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Tone & Language

Jay Dyer's tone is direct, unsparing, and often comedic, weaving sharp polemics with humor, inside jokes, and playful ribbing of callers and Protestant apologists. The episode maintains a high level of theological and philosophical rigor but is peppered with references and asides that reward longtime listeners and online culture-savvy audiences.

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For Listeners New to the Episode

This episode is a deep dive into Protestant and Orthodox theological arguments—especially authority, soteriology, and the nature of the true Church—with plenty of irreverent flavor, cultural commentary, and real-world practical advice for those exploring Orthodoxy. Jay's blend of erudition and comedy, combined with lively guest discussion, open Q&A, and banter, make for an engaging and thought-provoking listen.

If you're interested in Reformation history, church authority debates, Orthodox apologetics, or the wild world of online Christian discourse, this episode is essential.

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Transcript

[Jay Dyer]

This is Julian Edelman from Games With Names. I want to take a second to

[Commercial Announcer]

talk about something that's personal to me.

[Jay Dyer]

I've had the privilege of working closely

[Alex]

with Robert Kraft for a long time,

[Commercial Announcer]

and one thing I've always respected is

[Jay Dyer]

how seriously he takes up standing up to hate.

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As a Jewish athlete, my identity is

[Jay Dyer]

something I am proud of, but I also know what it feels like to be singled out for it. That's why this new commercial for the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate that aired during the big game really hit home. It's about showing up for someone when they're targeted, even if you don't have the perfect words.

[Alex]

And sometimes standing next to someone is enough.

[Jay Dyer]

And you can show support by sharing the Blue Square

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[Alex]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Alex]

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[Alex]

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Product purchase required terms and service restrictions apply. Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change Baptists do

[Jay Dyer]

not believe in a Eucharist. They do not have an altar. How are you going to be in communion with people that don't have an altar? They reject that idea. Classical Protestantism is premised on rejecting a eucharistic altar. So what does he mean by communion? He's updated the term to mean all the Protestants out there that have a basic idea of Jesus is Lord or some nonsense like that. That's not what communion means. It's not an intellectual ascent to propositions. It's a eucharistic ecclesial Episcopal communion. So he doesn't even know that is

[Father Deacon]

the true church, which is mainline Protestantism. And we have decided that the true

[Jay Dyer]

church is mainline Protestantism. Mainline. This is so low tier. I can't believe anybody would actually like fall for this. There is no such thing as mainline Protestantism that all the Protestant sects share. It doesn't exist. He is inventing a position intellectually to make his system work because he's too prideful to admit that he's wrong.

[Father Deacon]

Cited on a 66 book canon of Scripture and I ascent to the normative authority.

[Jay Dyer]

Protestants across the board don't actually agree on a 66 book canon because the Anglican Church has always included the Deutero Cannon. So he doesn't even know that of

[Father Deacon]

the mainline Protestant church, my jurisdiction of which is the P, by the way,

[Jay Dyer]

if he wants to split hairs and say, well, the Anglicans may have included it, but it's not official. It doesn't matter. Because Luther and Calvin rejected the Deuterocanon because it had doctrines like prayers for the dead or good works necessary for salvation. So even if the Anglicans include it, it's still a problem for him because according to Luther it teaches heresy. So who's right? Is it okay as an Anglican to have the deuterocanonical text and Maccabees and prayers for the dead, or is that heresy and Luther's correct, it shouldn't be canonical. So this is just silly made up nonsense.

[Father Deacon]

PC usa I would say, oh, you know, everybody did.

[Jay Dyer]

The PC USA was like, it's like the biggest gay church on the planet and now it's the Episcopals. So this guy was defending the biggest gay church out there in. Because he's a young guy, he's ignorant, he's zealous, he doesn't know zeal without knowledge. And now he's matured his position to be okay, I don't like the PC USA anymore. So that's all that came out of all this was okay, I don't like the PC usa Now I'm a part of mainline Protestantism. Okay, but the PC USA is part of mainline Protestantism, as is the Anglican Church, which has trans and skittles bishops and women bishops. How are you in communion with people that are women bishops? There's no such thing as a woman bishop. How could you be in communion with something that is not a thing? What the hell is even that?

[Father Deacon]

I would say that the, the, his

[Jay Dyer]

older arguments were actually better. Somebody said exactly, maybe, perhaps, which includes

[Father Deacon]

the Protestant church today, has the authority to make just make their best decision on the canon. And maybe it won't be. Maybe it won't be infallible authority. It's like they can't all be right.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so now he said, originally he said the canon is fallible. Well, that was the whole point, right? If your only thing that's infallible is the six. Six books, the Protestant canon, but it turns out the canon is actually fallible, then it doesn't work to say it's an infallible list. It's a, it's. It's a fallible collection of infallible books. That's nonsense. Hold on. Now you're saying that the Protestants today can participate in deciding the canon. But you've already.

[Father Deacon]

Yes, because we're.

[Jay Dyer]

The church admitted that it was a decision based on. So wait a minute now. Protestants are the church? Didn't we see what this first guy that called in, the Catholic guy, he said Jesus prayed that the church would be one. I guess his church, his prayer failed because nobody in their right mind could admit that the Protestant church is one. So he's made up an even stupider position than trying to be a PC USA guy in the past.

[Father Deacon]

Now if we're talking about like the New Testament canon or the Old Testament can like New Testament canon that delivers the teachings of the apostles and all the churches agree on that. Today the Old Testament canon there has been debates throughout all churches.

[Jay Dyer]

Why? Because all today's groups agree on something. Does that make it true for the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th century?

[Father Deacon]

So let's assume that. Yeah, I was trying to appeal to like this undivided early church, but the undivided early church didn't even really agree on the canon then. And it doesn't really make sense.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but that's to my point. If you're now admitting that the church didn't agree on the canon in this in the first five, six centuries, then you've admitted the point I made in the argument that the church cannot be governed by Sola scriptura and it wasn't governed by sola scriptura. That was the point is to say,

[Father Deacon]

oh, before the church is divided it has normative authority to decide the canon, but after it's divided it doesn't. The church has always had the same normative authority ever since the post.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, the comments are saying he actually sounds sounded like he was ignorant before, but now he sounds delusional. This is an even worse direction. I commented on his video that he should debate you again. Yeah, it's even worse now. And so this is the thing with with heresy and pre last is that it blinds you and pride is what caused you to double, triple, quadruple down, which puts you in even worse positions. 40 crushed us for $10. Jay, you are the third most base black man in history. There was St. Moses the black and there was King Caleb of Aksum and then there's me. Thank you. Appreciate that. I'm also now more important than Martin Luther according to Pope Respecter because no one has divided the church more than me. Rsl what's up? He says. Was that a Glock the other night? It's a Cat 9 Luger gorilla biscuit. What's up? Sending out memberships. Appreciate that. Congratulations on your bucket hat tour. You're almost at 200,000. Yes, this is the pre 200k 200k party. So this is the pre party for the 200k party which we will have with Jamie and we're trying to figure out what the theme should be. We might make it Faking Galleons. Right. Of course, we've done Nicholas Cage for every single previous party stream. So maybe we'll take a break from Nick Cage. Or maybe we should just do Nick Cage again.

[Alex]

I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

But the themes that seems to be emerging is aliens everywhere. So maybe we'll do aliens for 200k. I don't know. Since they're hypocrite, we should. Why would we side with people who blaspheme God and hate Christ? It's utterly ridiculous. Talking about Christians uniting with Islam because they're right wing and basis. It's so stupid. D Jules, what's up? Escape oblivion. $5. Thank you. 365 Republic 20 I love your content. I bought one of your books, the Red Book. I can't wait for it to get here, guys. Also, I forgot, we have been on the road for five weeks and so I've not been able to do book orders. Obviously, book orders are going to resume this week, so if you've not gotten your book after a few weeks, I apologize. I understand it's frustrating, but I do all of that. Jamie and I do all the orders. Just me and her. I don't have massive, you know, like, I'm not some giant operation where I can hire, you know, slave boomers in the basement to do the book orders. However, I will do that when I get sufficient amounts of power and money. It's not faced $5. I'm finding my way back to God after years of feminism. Woo. You and Andrew actually made me face palm my way back. Oh, awesome. Well, that's good to hear it. I like your name, Snot face. Appreciate that. Gainer Zilla. $50. Woo. He's winning the super chats, y'. All. If you want to support the super Chats, you can do so through streamlabs right there. And by the way, I will share them with FDA because he's a gracious professor of word salad and trickery and sorcery. Or as Jamie Kenny would say, sorcery.

[Father Deacon]

Why are you like a professor of

[Jay Dyer]

sorcery with your word salads? Can I get a little Thousand island with that word salad? Gainerzilla said, for those that are damned, does their will stay fixed in opposition to God in the eschaton. Yeah, I think they're kind of like the angels. When the angels fell at the very beginning, they had a instance by which they were tested and they immediately fixed their will because they will outside of time. And so in the eschaton, the people that are damned will be like the fallen angels in that they will fix their willingness outside of time. If sin allows gnomic will to be in opposition to God, why doesn't their will reconcile to God? Because they will be willing out of time like the angels. Whereas in this life we have a chance to repent because we will in time. But the angels were not willing in time. But great question. Waiver board $5. Jay, I just became a catechumen this week. Thank you for all that you do promoting the truth of Christ. You help me to learn more. And thank you for all your laughs. Thank you. I hope you like the weird laugh the best. B. Scott $5. If you say Agrippa's trilemma three times fast, it will actually defeat Jay's KBG KGB sorcery. Keep that kryptonite in your back pocket, all of you debate inquirers. Exactly. Kryptonite. If I go crazy then would you still call me Superman? I'm thinking of butt rock. Oh, oh. Maybe the 200k party will be a butt rock extravaganza. I just heard the news today. 200k with arms wide open. Welcome to this place. I'll show you every gay with arms wide open Christ offers a key. $2 redeem. Zoom thinks he can whip you now. Bring it on, dude. Let's do it. Because this is even worse than his last position. I'm now convinced he's actually in a worse position. If I go crazy then would you still call me Superman? I don't like any butt rock songs. Although Creed is fun to sing and make fun of. Except for. As you guys know, I have two butt rock songs.

[Chelsea Handler]

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[Jay Dyer]

Is it three doors down? Desperate for changing, Starving for true. Closer to where I started Chasing after you.

[Alex]

Falling even more in love with you.

[Jay Dyer]

I like that one. And trains Ordinary, right? Getting some Toby Maguire action over here. Feeling like Spider man baby ill kitsch. $5 redeem zoomer actually sounds delusional now. It's a bad direction. Yeah, we read that. Excuse me. Amber says for $20 for your inward university tuition. Here's $20. Thank you for this live stream after these long travels. Happy Easter. Happy Posca to y' all too. I like to say Posca because it trips out the Protestants who say Easter's pagan. Be like, no, it's Pasca, dude. What? What the hell is that? Do you Support Israel? Patrick Hayes, $40. Do the Matt Dillahoney song. You know what, dog? Since you sent me $40, I'll do a little bit of it. I'll do a little bit of it with arms wide open. Matt De La Monkey. You climbed up in that tree. What you doing up there? Why you scared? Why you running from every deep end? Ran from Andrew in from me. M O K E. What? Matt Dillon Monkey. Yeah, here we go. Y' all ready for this? What you doing up there?

[Alex]

Why you scared? Why you running from every debate? You ran from Andrew and from me. Night to the M.O. like that female monkeys with them bananas between their trees Hanging down upside down frown that's a smile,

[Jay Dyer]

By the way. How come Trent Horn didn't pick something? Actually Funny to call attention to. Like he's gonna choose me being mean. And he chose like one of the. I mean, he actually, actually Bishop Tal Talbert to Bishop Tilda Swinton. I thought was funny to troll that fake ass bishop with. But what about Matt Dilla Monkey song? That's a. That's a good one too. I'm super mean with that dud.

[Alex]

D Monkey, what you doing to me? Dill a dill a monkey D Monkey. To me.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, so there you go. We had a request from Patrick. $40 for the matt de Monkey song. He got it. Baby in the fifth. $2. Congratulations on your bucket hat tour. 200,000. Yes. Thank you. Guys. This is the pre 200k 200k stream in the filth says congrat. No, wait. Sorry. Tanner G. $5. Welcome back, Jay. My priest recommended the books book Roost Root of Christian Mysticism by Oliver Clement. Have you read it? No, but I'm familiar with Oliver Clement. He's a well known orthodox academic. Many books, many texts. I think I have a couple of texts that he's done. I don't have that book though, so I couldn't speak to it. Fda. Have you read the roots of Christian Mysticism? Okay. He's busy crafting his sorcery and alchemy because he's busy crafting Sary Sasser.

[Alex]

What was the question?

[Jay Dyer]

Is Oliver Olivier Clement's book Roots of Christian Mysticism any good? Have you heard that?

[Alex]

No, I have not read that.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so unfortunately, Tanner, none of us have read it. Patrick says for $10 fake and gray. I think he's talking about aliens or galleons. I don't know. But yes. Faking great escape oblivion. $5. Thank you so much. 365. No, we did that. Andrew. $5. Jay, do you think it's worth arguing with Protestants on X? It just depends, man. Maybe it depends on who the Protestant is. What they're arguing. If they're really hard headed and insane, it's probably not worth it.

[Alex]

By the way, I think it's worth pointing out. I'm gonna try to like clip this or something and put it on social media. Remember what Plato says? What do you say about when somebody should be introduced to debate and argumentation? Good point. And then it says not everybody's of the constitution to learn debate.

[Jay Dyer]

Yep.

[Alex]

So you have to let me seeing the only one that can infallibly bind every single person.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, I heard that you think that you're an infallibly binding clerk clergy member.

[Alex]

Now that's. Yeah. Well, that's what I. That's what I thought semantic sorcery was about. Watch me semantically bite you into.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, when I was on. When I was on with Jamie Kennedy, he goes, it's all sorcery, sorcery. So this is what you're doing really

[Alex]

good in the Republic, book seven, where he talks about every care should be taken once they do turn 30 to introduce them because younger people. What does he say? This is really good.

[Jay Dyer]

They're just not ready for it.

[Alex]

No, he says they don't think this. They'll think it's a game.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Alex]

They them. Let's see. They themselves who engage in reputation by refuting other people, take delight like puppies and verbally tugging and pulling apart anyone who comes near them. And so when they themselves have refuted many and many refuted, been refuted by many themselves, they descend rapidly and inexorably to the state where they believe nothing they believed before. And the consequence of themselves and philosophy in general are held low regard by everybody or sorry, low regard by everyone else. But someone older would not want to be involved in such madness. He will imitate the one who willing to engage in dialectic consider the truth rather than one who plays with it for fun and just argues against people. So I think we should implement this like, I think, you know how you have to get like driver's license. What is it, 18? We should have debate licenses where the state you have to go in.

[Jay Dyer]

I know, yeah. I want the re education camps too. So.

[Alex]

Yeah, amen. And. And then you have to go through like gun safety training. But it's like logic safety right now.

[Jay Dyer]

Alex, Alex. Soren, Shout out to Alex in the, in the audience. Alex looks a little young. I think we're gonna have to put him in a re education camp because I'm not sure. I'm not sure he's 40, but maybe we could give him a fake ID if he is 40.

[Alex]

We got a guy that knows a guy.

[Jay Dyer]

I got a guy. This is why I was talking about godfathers earlier. People are saying, what's the role of an orthodox godfather? Maybe I get you a little bit of a fake id and then, you know, maybe I call upon you when I need something one day that's a godfather.

[Alex]

But do you see what I'm saying, though? I mean, here he got redeemed zoomer. I mean, how old is he? 14?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, right. He's at, he's at Westminster's like elementary seminary.

[Alex]

And why does he have. Look at his bow tie. Like, is that the ones from the cartoons where he presses the button and it spins around.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I don't want, I don't know why, but Calvinists like these stupid bow ties. It's weird too, because when I, when I was debating Brian Shapiro, I was like, dude, you got the, the, the vibe of a Calvinist, but you're Jewish. Oh, wait, Calvinists and Jews are pretty close, aren't they? Interesting.

[Alex]

Why does he kind of look like Peewee Herman?

[Jay Dyer]

The funniest joke I heard, and I wish I'd have said it, when Brian Shapiro had that stupid Peaky Blinder hat on, people in the chat were calling him Peaky Grinder. That was, that was the funniest. I was like actually crying, laughing when I heard that one, but I wish I'd used it. By the way, I'm watching Peaky Grinders now, so I Peaky Grinder, Peaky Blinders now. People are going to clip that. Be like, oh, we got him watching. He's watching the gay stuff. I'm watching Peaky Blinders now. So I get the joke now because they were the 1919 English gangsters who were Irish that wore those stupid hats.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. After the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials. And there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't lo or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who was Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the Big Game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season, and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't Face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock identity theft protection. For tax season and beyond. Visit lifelock.com iheartra and save up to 40 your first year. That's 40 off. At lifelock.com iheart terms apply.

[Jay Dyer]

And they would dress all dapper, and they were called the Piggy Blonders. Oh, yeah. One of them Peggy Blinders. And then Brian Shapiro being called Peaky Grinder. Dude, that was so funny. Anyway, Pe Grinder. Do y' all know what a Peaky Blinder is? So these hats, right, they were called Peaky Hats, which British people always have these goofy names for stuff.

[Alex]

Peepee Grinder.

[Jay Dyer]

Pee Pee Grinder. So see these hats where these are. These are the Pe Grinder. And yeah, that was a really funny joke. I was actually jealous that I didn't come up with that. With that joke. H Brazy, what's up? You want to unmute?

[Alex]

Hey, what's up, Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

Yo.

[Alex]

Hey. Yeah, it'll be real quick because I actually have to go play with my nephews and my boys.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Alex]

So do you have a date for. For the conference?

[Jay Dyer]

If, like, I'm married, dude. I'm married, dude. I ain't going to know. I ain't going on no date.

[Alex]

Do you need a date?

[Jay Dyer]

Who? I'm gonna ask the prom. I'm gonna ask out. I'm gonna ask Brian Shapiro to go to prom with me. I'm being dumb. Go ahead. A date for what?

[Alex]

For the. For the conference. Well, if, you know, if there. I'm assuming there's gonna be one later this year.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, you mean the Orthodox conference. Yeah. Yeah, I think Neil said something like October, November.

[Alex]

Oh, yeah, that works out because I still have already used one week of vacation.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, dude, that'd be great for you to come. I'd love to see you. I'd love to get you to come down there. That'd be awesome.

[Alex]

Yeah, so that's. That's why I'm saving my third week, because I actually. I wanted to use it for the summer, but I was like, nah, you know, there's a. I could use that to, you know, you know, go down to Florida and, you know, finally get to meet, you know, you, father, Father, Deacon, whoever else, you know. Yeah, the Turbos there, that'd be cool, too.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, it'd be great. And I think Neil wants to get pajo to come, too. So if we got Pajo, we would. That would probably be, you know, combined aura. We could probably get 500 people easy, maybe more.

[Alex]

So you Know what's funny? I'm actually kind of pissed off that I didn't make the joke. So I don't know if you know this, but Andrew. Andrew is basically, like, the only one. And maybe Rachel has said it, like, once or twice. You know, people used to say that Andrew is mean. Peugeot. And Peugeot was nice for Joe because they. Because they kind of look alike. They. They don't look that much alike.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't think they look alike. They don't look alike to me. But. But maybe black people, when they see white people, they think we all look alike, which is racist. But.

[Alex]

Oh, yeah, that's it, man.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that'd be great.

[Alex]

I'm still gonna listen, but, you know. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that's cool. Appreciate it. I hope you could come and we all just do what Neil says. Neil has suddenly become everyone's orthodox handler. Suddenly, just out of nowhere, he just popped up and he's like everybody's handler, and he's. Neil's running everything. And so you want to know who the secret king CIA handler for all of orthodoxy actually is? It's now Neil. So shout out to Neil.

[Alex]

He's running Montana.

[Jay Dyer]

He's running. He run everything, dude. Neil is. Neil is the.

[Alex]

He's running it. I don't even know how that happened.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, if you watch Peaky Blinders, and this is common kind of mafia thing, right? Killian Murphy is actually running the gang, right? And then his dumb meathead brother is the one that is the face of it, but he's an idiot and has, like. You can't. He can't control his anger. So they have p. They have killing Murphy running the gang in the background, right? This was the same with. In the Godfather, you know, Sonny is supposed to run the gang, but he's too. He's got too much of a temper. So Michael ends up running the organization from the background, and. And Sonny's the face of it. So Neil is actually running orthodoxy as the brains the operation, like Killian Murphy. And then I'm the angry, you know, unhinged, public idiot brother, as well as everyone else under. Under the thumb of Neil, the Godfather. So there's one other thing I want to mention. I forgot what it was.

[Alex]

I don't.

[Jay Dyer]

I can't remember what it was. Anyway, okay, we will never get. We got to get through some more of this freaking redeem Zoomer thing here.

[Father Deacon]

Castolic age began. So, yeah, that was the debate about the canon. So now let's talk about normative authority in general.

[Jay Dyer]

You're not bound by Confessions.

[Father Deacon]

Yeah, we are.

[Jay Dyer]

We have your confessions say that. No post apostolic creed, counselor. Confession.

[Father Deacon]

Well that's not what the confessions say. The confessions say we cannot be bound to anything that cannot be found in Scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

But yeah, that's the, that's the thing in question. Dude, come on. Obviously every person is going to say their position is found in Scripture. So just saying. Yeah, but it's by what's found in Scripture. That's the point about the right of private interpretation in the classical Reformation doctrines, right? The classical Reformation confessions have the idea, which was a Protestant distinctive, that no pope, council or magisterium or cardinal can tell me what I derive from Scripture. I have the quote, right? And here's this Enlightenment classical liberal idea of quote rights, right? You've heard Andrew critique countless leftists and, and lunatics out here because they all worship this idea of magical rights. Okay, what are those? Where are those and what's. How do we know what they are? And they always end up just go, well this is what the state says. So basically just default to statism. The Protestants were having a similar tendency at the time of the Reformation to say, I have a right of private interpretation because no one can bind my conscience. Well, do you think that at the Council of Nicaea they thought that everybody has the right to private interpretation and no one can bind their conscience when they excommunicate the Aryans? No, you're bound by this interpretation and if you don't accept it, well then you're outside of the Church. You've left. So he's again equivocating and deflecting from. He's got to know that this is a Protestant Reformation distinctive, right? I mean I was in the Calvinist sphere for years. I, I was always talking about this. Yeah, we have a right of private interpretation. No man. And it sounds like, it sounds powerful, right? Like, yeah, I agree with Luther. Right? Nobody could step on my. You can't triple my conscience. I got the right of private interpretation. Okay, but do the by does the Bible and do the Church Fathers and the councils teach that you have the right of private interpretation? That's the question here.

[Father Deacon]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

And I'm asking him, why do you think you have that? And how are you going to have normative authority when you also have the doctrine of the right of private interpretation? That's the dilemma I'm putting him in. Surely he can get that right.

[Father Deacon]

The institutional church can and does bind the conscience to things.

[Jay Dyer]

I said now, now the institutional church that combined consciences, okay, is this the same institutional Protestant Sects that are Episcopal trans bishops and Methodists, gay bishops and Baptist Anabaptists. I mean, what is the institutional church? I mean, I would argue perhaps we could look at the stats, because I might be wrong, but my guess would be that the numbers of Protestants worldwide now is probably evangelicals that are more or less the radical Reformation descendants.

[Alex]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

I've been making this argument. If you didn't see the stream on Testament Van Lee, I recommend it. It's in the member section. But if the majority of mainline Protestants is basically the inheritance of the radical Reformation Charismatics, Pentecostals, that's all Anabaptist stuff, then it's not the classical magisterial Reformation, which he's trying to hearken back to now. Again, the Anabaptist radical Reformation people were put to death by the magisterial reformers. Okay, do we understand this? Did you know that in England the Royalists and the Cavaliers went to war over whether or not you should have a king or a republic? In fact, the Westminster Confession was forged partly out of the dispute between this question, Rex Lex or Lex Rex. And yes, I've read those old English Calvinist debates. I have some of those books still. So he's giving you this modern invention of an idea of all the Protestants as an institution communing together and having normative authority. This is so silly. Anybody taking this seriously is just completely stupid. There's no way to make that work or makes. It's totally ahistorical when these groups literally killed each other, not just over baptism, but should we have a king or a constitutional republic

[Father Deacon]

that are in scripture. For example, the Presbyterian Church can and has bound people to the doctrine of the Trinity because we believe it's in of spite Scripture. However, the.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but in the Protestant world, I can say my right of private interpretation. No one can trample my conscience. This is what Cervitus argued when Calvin had Cervitus burned. Yeah, he thought he had the power and he did, I guess, actually have the power to have Cervitus burned. Cervitus said, I don't see the Trinity in Scripture. I have the right of private interpretation. Go ahead.

[Alex]

You know what the problem is? I've seen this argument before where Protestants will just say, and particularly Presbyterians, oh, we have normative authority. Well, you have authority, but you don't have a normative authority because again, you accept the right of private judgment. But it's something more akin to if you worked at Home Depot and your name was.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea after the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the big Game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season, and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Visit lifelock.com identify iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40 [e-mail] iheart terms apply.

[Alex]

Juan Juan Valdez. You work at Home Depot anyways, and they have an authority, right? They can kick you out and say you're in, fire you and say you're not. But you can just go to Lowe's. I'm going to Lowe's. So there's nothing that actually binds you. But think about this. That's when we speak about normal authority, we make more of a legal analogy. If Lewis and Clark county, right, the judge declares me guilty on something, I can't just go pick up and go, well, I'm going to Jefferson County. I'm actually going to go skip state. And your judgment doesn't bind me because now I'm over here. That's what you can do as a Protestant is with the analogy of the businesses. It's like they could fire you and kick you out, but you can just go to work at Lowe's.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, and Protestant church is our business church. So great analogy.

[Alex]

It's more analogous to the legal. Now you can appeal, right? Like, so you could go up to the Montana Supreme Court after, let's say the county judge declares you guilty or something like that. But you can't say, well, that doesn't apply to me because I'm moving over to the next county or the next state. And so they play with this notion of authority. And what they really mean is something more kind of like a corporate authority.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. And by the way, my argument was not Protestants never claimed to have elders or authorities. That was not the argument. The argument was, if you have a doctrine of the right of private interpretation and the freedom of conscience and you also have the idea of normative authority, then you're in a bind because one of those has to give. You can't have both of those. You can't have every layman having the right to interpret the Scriptures for himself. And a normative authority that can bind people's consciences. Those are mutually exclusive ideas. And obviously the fruits of the Protestant Reformation show that this does not work. So he's just simply doing this is what the Thomas do this all the time. Right. If you call out a contradiction in Thomism, well, look over here, Aquinas says something correct. Look over here, we admit there's authorities. I wasn't arguing that you don't have authorities. My argument was that it's a contradiction to have the right of private interpretation, freedom of conscience and freedom of worship and the idea of normative authority. Because every group is going to say, well, my doctrine's taught in the Scriptures.

[Alex]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

That's why it doesn't work to just say, appeal to the Scriptures. And that he just admitted that. He said, well, yeah, but it has to do with what you can prove from the Scriptures. Well, Servitus thought he could prove Arianism from the Scriptures. Right. That's why Calvin had to say, we don't care about your interpretation. You're going to the steak, bro. Get you some barbecue sauce. We're about to have a little servitas meat.

[Father Deacon]

Presbyterian Church cannot bind someone to observing a certain holiday which. Which is not in Scripture. So if a certain Presbyterian wants to stay home.

[Jay Dyer]

So you notice the false equivalence there that he just did. He said, a Presbyterian can bind your conscience to the Trinity, but they can't bind your conscience to church feast days. Oh, really? But you understand that both the feast days and the doctrine of the Trinity are a logical deduction from the teaching of the Scriptures. And that's the thing in question who decides which interpretation is authentic and correct. That's the point. Protestantism is built on the idea that there's no man that can bind your conscience to their interpretation. And it doesn't matter that they think well, but I like the doctrine of the Trinity and that one should be one of them. That's the argument. It's arbitrary. It's a contradiction between those two principles. You either have to give up the so called right of private interpretation which by the way, where does that come from? Where do you get the idea that a Christian or an individual has the right to interpret the Scriptures for himself? I, I don't see that anywhere in the history of the Old Testament believers. It's not in the New Testament. It doesn't exist amongst the church fathers. So that is the Reformation distinctive. That is a new doctrine. Do you think Athanasius or, or Irenaeus as bishops would tell their flock, guys, remember, I might be at a bishop, I might have apostolic succession. But you all have the right to interpret the Scriptures as you see fit? Of course not. It doesn't exist. That's the point

[Father Deacon]

on Christmas. Doesn't want to go to church on Christmas. The Presbyterian Church does not have the authority to bind their conscience. Say you must go to church on Christmas.

[Jay Dyer]

But if someone wants I have to say this one because this is another contradiction. Does he not know in the classical Reformation Westminster Confession documents, maybe he hasn't even read those. You're not even supposed to celebrate Christmas. The traditional Presbyterian Calvinist view is against Holy Days. I don't think he knows that. That would actually be an interesting point to bring up. That actually your church did previously think that it could bind people's consciences to not celebrating Christmas or having images or icons. Now your Calvinist Presbyterian Church tolerates people going to Christmas and having images and icons. So that's another evolution of inconsistency. That again shows the fruits of your silly position to deny the Trinity.

[Father Deacon]

Not only can the Presbyterian Church excommunicate someone for that.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, why? What is the basis for saying the church? Quote unquote. Church can excommunicate you for denying the Trinity but not denying Christmas as a feast day. He's going to say the Scriptures. That was the point, dude. I know you're going to appeal to the Scriptures. Every heretic appeals to Scriptures. Servitus appealed to the Scriptures against John Calvin. So you either have to give up the right of private interpretation which doesn't exist and is made up, or normative authority. You can't have both. Doesn't make any sense.

[Father Deacon]

Presbyterian Church has excommunicated many people for that.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but that's not what we're asking. I'm asking for the contradiction between these two principles to solve that mutually exclusive contradiction.

[Father Deacon]

Depends on what you mean by buying. It's like it's not infallible in the same way the Bible is, but it's still authority. It's like a pastor. A pastor is not infallible. A pastor is still an authority. Yes, past Zoomer, but that's irrelevant. The question isn't fallible versus infallible.

[Alex]

It's still.

[Jay Dyer]

At least he's debating past zoomer here. At least he's admitting that he's wrong.

[Father Deacon]

Does the church have the authority to make binding decisions upon pain of excommunication? Which, luckily, the Presbyterian Church does.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, this has taken a long time. I'm going to see if we get to a new topic. Let's skip ahead a little bit because it's getting boring tedious here. Let's see where he goes next. Oh, come on now.

[Father Deacon]

No sin. Especially the whole old school, new school controversy. The Presbyterian Church kicked out three presbyteries that were not being orthodox enough.

[Jay Dyer]

So, yeah, so he's moving on to original sin. Let's see where else he goes.

[Father Deacon]

Anyway, so normative authority is important. And luckily, traditional Presbyterians believe the institutional church, as the institutional church has binding normative authority.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. What is the institution? We could just move this problem back a step and say, okay, what's the actual authoritative reform Presbyterian institution? Now, I have to make this comment as well, because I was in this world, and anybody who knows this world, let's be honest, and I want you to be honest, too. Redeem Zoomer. If you're watching this in the Presbyterian world, you know. You know damn well there's not an institution of the Presbyterian Church, you know, that the RPC US hates the RPCNA and they hate the PCA and they all disagree with the opc. These are all the minuscule factions of the Calvinist Presbyterian sects. And for you to act like they're all on the same page because they claim to have the Westminster Confession when they disagree about fundamentals, for example, the RPCNA schism and would not accept the PCA or the OPC over things like hymns. There's a huge debate in the history of Calvinism over musical instruments. Strict Presbyterians will not have instruments and they will only sing psalmody. It's a controversy called the Psalmity only controversy or no hymns controversy. They will Schism over that. They schism over Reconstructionism. Bonson and Rush. Juni, are you pro Reconstructionist or anti Reconstructionist? Do you like Jim? Jim Jordan, or do you reject Jim Jordan? Do you want pedo communion? Like, whatever was the controversy that started the Doug Wilson sect? Doug Wilson's whole sect comes out of the. The debates over pedo communion. And then Doug Wilson, as the pope of his own sect, says, we're going to allow you to commune as a Baptist and not give your children communion, but you can also commune with the Presbyterians who believe in pedo communion. This is so insane. And anybody who knows that ridiculous world knows that they will split over the color of the carpet and create a new presbytery over the color of the carpet. I'm not joking. They'll split over that. Oh, I'm in the rpcna. Cdxyz, right? And there's five of us, and we're the real presbytery. So this is all silly. It's so silly. And he's got to know this, right? About modern Presbyterianism. I was in that world, and that's what it's really like. It's as crazy as the set of a conscious world. Okay, so, no, there is not an institutional Presbyterian Church. There's a thousand different presbyteries that all hate and disagree with each other and schism over the stupidest stuff.

[Father Deacon]

Now, let's just talk about Presbyterianism, Presbyterians and bishops and stuff. It's still debated. It's like the best scholarship, best neutral scholarship says that in some regions there was episcopacy. In some regions there was Presbyterian government. Eventually the episcopacy won out.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, like scholars. Like who?

[Father Deacon]

Okay. At this point, I just had heard these things in a few places. I didn't.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't have any actual basis. I just said it. So I was repeating what I heard. No.

[Father Deacon]

Which scholars? Which church fathers? Which scholars? John Henry Newman, who is Roman Catholic. He's a doctor.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, so wait a minute. Your source is John Henry Newman, the Roman Catholic, to argue that the episcopacy developed? I mean, well, that would prove development of doctrine. That would prove Romanism, like John Henry Newman's version of Romanism. So that's a terrible source.

[Father Deacon]

Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church. He admits the early church had a more Presbyterian structure that the big.

[Jay Dyer]

So why does any Orthodox person or Protestant person care what John Henry Newman said? That'd be like me going to a Muslim debate and citing, I don't know, who do Muslims hate? David Wood. It'd be like me citing David Wood in a Muslim debate. Be like, they don't care what David Wood says. Like it's such a silly line of argument. He's all over the place, man. He's gotten into even worse position.

[Father Deacon]

Bishops were developments, the episcopacy was a development, and the papacy was a development. And because he's Captain Development of Doctrine, he thinks that, you know, even if the early church did resemble Protestantism, in some ways, Catholicism has the most organic development. So that's why we should all be Catholic.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but again, irrelevant. Who cares what John Henry Newman says? Moving ahead, if you have the equivalent belief, it doesn't really matter.

[Father Deacon]

So I still this is the first time I've ever heard of this.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. After the Big Game, like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who was Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the Big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season, and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers. But here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity theft Protection. For tax season and beyond, visit lifelock.com identify iHeart and save up to 40 your first year. That's 40 [e-mail] iHeart terms apply.

[Father Deacon]

I've always rejected mono energism, monothelitism while holding to a Calvinist view of conversion.

[Jay Dyer]

I've never Monergism is mono energism. It's, it's equivalent. It's a logical deduction. I don't know what he's talking about here. We're talking about Christology. But my argument was that monergism in Christology is for example, mono energism in soteriology. And this has been argument's been made many times over.

[Father Deacon]

Seen any contradiction? I don't think there is any contradiction.

[Jay Dyer]

An anthropological view. That's monoenergism. Right. Don't you believe that the divine grace has to overcome the human will?

[Father Deacon]

The providentially God changes the, the human heart? Yes. Okay, so Jay is right that monergism is mono energism. I spoke to my seminary professor about this.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. I mean, I mean it's great that you're speaking to your seminary professor, but it's like, are you not going to do the reading? I mean, go and do the Christological reading. Don't just take the words of some random dude. I mean go and read the text.

[Father Deacon]

And the answer he gave is Calvinists are just not monarchists. Monergism is one of those things like Tulip or the five SOLAs.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that is Calvinism. You will find in most Calvinist systematic theologies and dogmatic texts the teaching of monergism. I don't know what he's talking about here. This is Calvinism 101. I was a Calvinist for a long time. I went to Bonson Seminary. Calvinists are monarchists. They teach monarchism which is invented in

[Father Deacon]

like the 19th, 20th centuries to try and summarize the Calvinist or Protestant view of things. But no, the Reformed tradition is not historically monergist.

[Jay Dyer]

That is not true. That is a blatant

[Father Deacon]

error.

[Jay Dyer]

And he needs to do the readings himself and not just rely on what he, his professor says. Let's see, I will guarantee you in, in Bavink or Charles Hodge or any of the classical Calvinist systematic theologies, they will talk about monergism. So Berkoff, I forgot Berkoff. Calvin emphasized that grace is entirely efficacious. That's monergism. Louis Berkoff in his systematic theology says that Calvinism's doctrine of regeneration is monergist. Francis Turreton, the famous dogmatic scholastic Calvinist regeneration is an act of God alone. That's monergism. So again, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't even know the classical Reformation teachings. And by the way, I have all of these These systematic theologies on my shelf. I have all my Calvinist books still, I guarantee you. I mean, it's not hard to find this out. Calvinists call their websites monergism.com. what are you talking about? This, this website has been around since I was a Calvinist. Like dude, they call the websites monergism.com, bro. They wouldn't do that if Calvinists didn't teach monergism. Let's see if [e-mail] have. They don't even have a headline of monergism. But I mean, again, the doctrine of regeneration in Calvinism is literally the same thing as monarch. That's what it means. You don't participate in being regenerated. Duh. That's monergism, dude. What are you talking about?

[Father Deacon]

We believe in what's called dual intent. So I would say a strict monergism says that it's a hundred percent God and zero percent you. God just overrides you. God's will overrides your will. And you can see how that would sort of be mono energistic because it implies that there cannot be a cooperation between the divine will and the human will. And if that's the case, then Jesus, who is one person, couldn't have had

[Alex]

salvation right there, son.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. I mean again, all Calvinists that I've ever heard of stress that God is the sole actor in regeneration. Now they might get specific and say God efficaciously moves the human will, but the whole point of being dead in sin is that regeneration is just as much a one sided miraculous action of God as a bodily resurrection. That's literally what Calvinistic monarchism is supposed to be about. Now maybe his professor is attuned to recent Calvinist disputes and maybe there, there's a lot of disputes and things that happening in Calvinist Protestant worlds where they're actually trying to do in a lot of different things. For example, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is literally trying to bring Thomism into their apologetics. I'm not joking. I went to Southern Seminary a few years ago and I was walking around on campus. I was debating some of the people that happened to be around. By the way, Father Damick called me out for doing that. No orthodox person should go to a Protestant campus and debate. I don't know why, why we wouldn't, but. And a lot of the guys I talked to who were getting their Master's and their PhD in seminary or in theology at Southern Seminary in Louisville said we've actually had a huge revolution here where we're bringing Thomism into SB TS theology. So it could be the case that amongst modern Calvinist Scholastics that they're having some sort of debate about, no, we actually need to give some place for the human will. But who cares? That's not even the classical Calvinist teaching. Right. So remember, like Father Deacon just pointed out, these guys can always just shift and move and create a new position because they're not actually bound by anything historical. Now he says you're bound by the Trinity and all this. He doesn't believe the Cappadocian doctrine of the Trinity. He teaches the Augustinian heretical doctrine of the Trinity. So no two wills.

[Father Deacon]

Jesus couldn't have had a divine will and a human will. But the sixth ecumenical council that Jay brings up, it did teach officially that Jesus has two wills. Jesus has a human will and a divine will. And that's the mainstream Chalcedonian position. But if you think they're incompatible, which you do think that, if you think that salvation has to be 100 God, 0% US, then that is mono energist. The synergist view would be that it's sort of like partly God, partly you. So God does his part, but you kind of have to do your part as well. Calvinists aren't exactly synergist either. The way my seminary professor puts it is his dual intent and his Bible verse. For that is work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is he who works in you.

[Jay Dyer]

So, yeah, but that's not classical Calvinistic monergism. So again, you can see here at, you know, Reformed websites that have been here for 30 years, since I was a Calvinist, little, literally, it will equate Calvinism with God is the sole actor and cause in regeneration. That is Calvinism. So the fact that he's got a professor who's trying to make this a little more amenable and palatable is, again, really irrelevant to what classical Calvinism is. Let's move ahead a little bit and then we'll go to Alex. Alex, do you want to say something? Go ahead, Alex.

[Alex]

I just wanted to add real quick, I just did a video on unconditional election. So I have it fresh in my mind that the cannons of Dort, the Westminster Confession, the Baptist Confession, no matter where you turn to, you will always see everywhere that election is the cause of faith. So even if his professor is saying that this like dual intent theory, the person, the human subject, cannot have any intent unless God already determined it. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

God pauses the intent. Right. Is still modernism. Exactly.

[Alex]

And to have that sort of position, they just run away from every single theological commitment that they have in the past. Like this is the cannons of door, the Westminster Confession. This is what they have to believe.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. No, you cannot have a role in regeneration or else it would be a work. That's classic Calvinism 101.

[Alex]

This is so crazy. This whole video strikes me as cope,

[Jay Dyer]

but that's all that.

[Alex]

That's all that I wanted to say.

[Father Deacon]

But you know, where was Lazarus's human will and energy when Jesus raised him from the dead? So yes, it is a monergistic or mono energistic act of God that.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, thank you. That's exactly what we're saying. So you just admitted that it's monergistic right there.

[Father Deacon]

Frees our will from slavery to sin. But once that happens, then there is full cooperation between the divine and the human will.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but the doctrine of regeneration is not a synthesis or a cooperation. So he just admitted that it's monergistic in regeneration. That was my argument.

[Father Deacon]

Dude, Jesus does not just make sick people. Well, Jesus makes dead people alive, just like he did with Lazarus. That's what Calvinism teaches. All right, now here's another, Keith, that

[Jay Dyer]

would be monergism, making a dead person alive. If you're dead, you don't participate in it. Duh thing.

[Father Deacon]

Another key debate, this idea that Calvinism teaches that Jesus was damned on the cross and then either that's Nestorian or that splits the Trinity. So let's listen to that part, because

[Jay Dyer]

the other big problem that I see with Reformed theology, and maybe you don't teach this classical Reformation teaching, whether it's Calvin, Luther, Charles Hodge, John Murray, J I Packard, RC Sproul, they all teach that Christ on the cross was damned.

[Father Deacon]

Okay? He says like the classical Reformation teaching. And he lists like one classical Reformation theologian, which is Calvin himself. And remember.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I said Luther and I mentioned other Calvinists. And let's go to these actual comments here. Here is for example, and this modern Calvinist that still maintain this teaching. And I know because as a Calvinist and as a fan of Luther, back in my Protestant days, I would argue this all the time. So here is for example, this is

[Chelsea Handler]

Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea after the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials. And there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the blue square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the blue square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen Lifelong, LifeLock's US based restoration specialist will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with LifeLock identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Visit LifeLock.com iHeart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iHeart terms apply.

[Jay Dyer]

John Piper saying when Jesus cried, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? It was the scream of the damned. Jesus was damned in our place. That's desiring God Blog here. You can find this, right? I'll give you guys this link here. Lorraine Butner, famous Calvinist systematic theologian here. Jesus was separated from God. He experienced the pangs of hell, that is everything that is good and desirable. Such suffering is beyond our comprehension. He suffered an eternity in hell. John MacArthur says the same thing. The punishment was the outpouring of God's wrath. The Father poured all of the wrath against sin on the Son on the cross. John, John Arthur, John MacArthur again saying the same thing here. Here's John Calvin. Nothing had been done if Christ had only endured a a physical corporeal death. That's the orthodox position that he underwent separation of his human soul from his human body. That's the orthodox position. He's not damned, but Christ endured in the sight of man what the Creed says, the incomprehensible judgment of God. This is John Calvin in the institutes, chapter book 3, chapter 16, section 10. By the way, this guy's this Catholic guy's blog is all my posts got this, all this from me, right? The body of Christ was given as a price, but there was a greater price. He bore the tortures of the condemned. He bore the tortures in his soul of the condemned. There's John Calvin right there. Charles Hodge, famous Catholic or Calvinist systematic. The theologian. Christ suffered the penalty of the law. He suffered eternal death. He must have. That's the thing that was due to us right there. He was cast off from God. Martin Luther, Christ himself suffered the the dread horror of eternal wrath on the cross. Martin Luther cited by Calvinist John PA JI Packer right there. Wayne Gudem, Baptist Calvinist systematic theologian. Christ was damned.

[Alex]

Right there.

[Jay Dyer]

R.C.

[Alex]

sproul.

[Jay Dyer]

Christ was damned. You were accursed. He was under the anathema of the Father. I don't understand that. Sproul says, but it is true. John Piper again saying it. Calvinist C.J. mahaney. Christ was damned in our place. John Piper, again, these are just selections, right? This is a very well known common Calvinist teaching and it's Luther and Calvin and most of the Calvinist tradition as far as I'm aware when they, when they talk about it. Now maybe not every Calvinist theologian even discusses this, but when they discuss it, they're very explicit and very clear. So him acting like this is some unheard of thing is false.

[Father Deacon]

Calvin is a lawyer, not a scholastic. So sometimes he uses sloppy language to make a point.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but it's not just Calvin, it's the rest of the Calvinist divines. Dude, come on.

[Father Deacon]

But no, Calvinists do not teach that Jesus was literally damned across.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes you do. Here is your divines. John Piper, Lorraine Betner, John MacArthur, Calvin himself, Charles Hodge, J.I. packer, Wayne Gudem, R.C.

[Alex]

sproul.

[Jay Dyer]

You absolutely teach it

[Alex]

right here.

[Jay Dyer]

He's full of it. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And that, that damnation, that's what we

[Father Deacon]

believe is he suffered spiritually. He suffered the spiritual penalty equivalent to damnation.

[Jay Dyer]

There. He just admitted the thing. He denied he wasn't damned on the cross. He experienced the spiritual equivalence of damnation on the cross. Yeah, that splits the Trinity. So every argument I've ever made still holds. Alex, you want to say something?

[Alex]

Yeah, just briefly because I recently got into a tiff with Jordan Cooper on this. I did like a parody video on him recently, but I used a few of your quotes and I sight checked them and lo and behold, they do actually say what you say they say even with all the context and I've noticed they're making a move of running to Francis Turreton lately, so I looked up his work on the Atonement as well, and he actually has some of the worst language that I've seen on this topic. He says that the father withheld the beatific vision from the Son, as if this somehow helps them, and that the father withheld the full fruition of felicity between the father and the son.

[Jay Dyer]

So still anti transparent damning language.

[Alex]

I've seen. It doesn't help them at all.

[Jay Dyer]

Good. Yeah, I didn't actually know that turrets and went to that depth. That's good. Yeah. Thank you. All right, so again, massive fail here. Let's move on towards the end of this. See where he goes to the end of it. Then.

[Father Deacon]

It's an historian. No, it's not an historian to say the person of the Son died according to his human nature, not according to his divine nature. So you can also say the person of the son was punished according to his human nature, not according to his divine nature.

[Jay Dyer]

Again, if you say the punishment is spiritual death and damnation or the equivalence of it, that is equated to Arianism or Nestorianism. So he just still doesn't understand nature, person in the Trinity. And he doesn't understand that the Son is a divine subject. So, yeah, the Son undergoes death in his human nature, meaning the severance of the human soul from the human body. That's how John Damascus defines what happens on the cross. There is no spiritual death or damnation because he's a divine person.

[Father Deacon]

I don't see any issue with that.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, well, he doesn't see the issue because he doesn't understand. He Calvinists are an historian. They don't even realize it. This is a Christological heresy.

[Father Deacon]

Last section will be on the true church. What is the true church? And this is where you can see my ecclesiology then was very weak and fluffy. It is the true church.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, it's even worse now because you said it's all of the Protestant churches in a magisterial communist union.

[Alex]

That.

[Jay Dyer]

That doesn't exist. That's made up, Molech. Oh, we have an ancient Semitic deity in the chat. What's up, Molech? I'm mute.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. After the Big Game, like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials. And there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it as Someone who is Jewish. That moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the blue square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the blue square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, lifelong. LifeLock's US based restoration specialist will fix it. Backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock. Identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart terms apply.

[Alex]

Hey, what's up everybody?

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, here. Sounds like we got a funny man.

[Alex]

Any questions for your Lord and savior Molok?

[Jay Dyer]

Are you.

[Alex]

Are you.

[Jay Dyer]

Have you always been a comedian? Because this is super funny, Jay.

[Alex]

You know, in your time of need

[Jay Dyer]

you pray better than Muhammad, the Buddha or Jesus Christ.

[Alex]

That's right, baby.

[Jay Dyer]

That was really high tier comedy. I wish that I could get you guys DM me afterwards because I want to try to get you guys to write for Sam Hyde because it is super funny. Our Carrie. What's up dude? I'm mute.

[Father Deacon]

Hello?

[Alex]

Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes sir. How you doing? Great.

[Alex]

Yeah. I just want to say I've been listening to you for years and I really appreciate all the things you do. I've been trying to speak with you actually for the last couple months though on a specific topic regarding Hebrews. I was wondering if you could just like I. I know it's a little off topic, but if you could answer it.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't care. What.

[Alex]

It's been bothering me. Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

What?

[Alex]

So I watched one of your videos a long time ago where you were discussing in Hebrews that. It describes the like a comparison between our. The Eucharist. Our Eucharist and The Jews sacrifice. Yeah. Hebrews 13 in chapter 13. And when you were saying, you were. You were saying that the root word, I think, in. Yeah, I think it's at the start of Hebrews 13 was Eucharist. And I've been trying for the heck of me to find anything on this because I thought that that's a really good argument against.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, it's Hebrews 13:10.

[Alex]

Well, the Protestants and the Jews.

[Jay Dyer]

So Hebrews 13:10 through.

[Alex]

Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. And what's. What's the problem?

[Alex]

I remember you, you were saying, one of your videos, you were saying how the root word for. I, I guess it's offering. There's eucharista.

[Jay Dyer]

It's verse 15, where he talks about, let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise. That's. That's. That's right. That's the, The Greek word in the New Testament oftentimes is Eucharistia. It's where we get Eucharist.

[Alex]

The. The Greek word in the New Testament, you said.

[Jay Dyer]

Huh.

[Alex]

Is it. Is it like a septuid? No, it. Like. Because I was trying. I was, like, trying to find where that would be or like. Do you have, like, a specific reference to that? I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything. I just really want to, like, I really.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not a. Yeah. I'm not a Greek scholar, but it's a common argument that's made that Eucharistia in the New Testament is Eucharisto, and it should be the text that's. It should be what's in Hebrews. At least I've heard this argued.

[Alex]

Gotcha. All right.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I'm looking. Hold on. So are you saying that it's not there? Is that what you're saying?

[Alex]

Yeah, I mean, I, I went. I. I talked to a bunch of people in regards to, like, people who knew the Greek and all that and was trying to figure out if this was the case. And I just couldn't find any sources or anything that talked about it in the way that you talked about it and that video. And I just wanted to.

[Jay Dyer]

This is the way that Any sources

[Alex]

or references to that, because I couldn't find it.

[Jay Dyer]

So this is the way that Catholic and Orthodox have typically exegeted this passage. So they are reading theology into it when it talks about

[Alex]

the

[Jay Dyer]

benedictions and the greetings. Let's say. I'm going to. By the way, Father Stephen DeYoung would be the one that you would want, because he speaks. He knows biblical Greek. He would be the guy to ask on this because I'm not a Greek scholar, but let me see. I'm looking.

[Alex]

Is he on YouTube too?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, he's Alex. If you have any insights on this, feel free, because I'm. I'm not. I don't know Greek, and I.

[Alex]

You. You means good. You means good. And Greece is grace in Greek. Father Stephen does twitch streams with an open Q and A, like every either Friday night or Saturday night. And he puts the VODs on YouTube, but he'll probably be on my stream after Holy Week. You have to keep in mind that for clergy, this is like an extremely busy time, so.

[Jay Dyer]

So.

[Alex]

Oh, no, I understand. I completely understand. It'll probably be a few weeks. He's like a pretty frequent guest on my channel, so.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, okay. Hey, hush. I think I found it. So I'm not trying to be mean, but. So if you look in the Greek, in Hebrews 13, I think it's the. The sacrifice that is well pleasing. I think it is right here. It is the Strong's 2100. It is the acceptable offering. Here you. You are east. So it's like a. It's not Eucharistia. It's a derivative of the word.

[Alex]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

Does that make sense?

[Alex]

I appreciate that. So thank you so much.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you. Do you see the. The word. It's strong's 2100.

[Alex]

Yes, I. I do see it.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so. And it's Hebrews 13, and it's verse 15 where it says the well pleasing sacrifice, which is Theseus, you are. Is it. That's what it is.

[Alex]

And like, the root word would mean, like Eucharistia.

[Jay Dyer]

It's where eucharistia comes from. It comes from the well pleasing sacrifice. So it's even cited right here in. It's the sacrifice that's pleasing to God. Right here. Hebrews 13.

[Alex]

Got. All right, well, thank you. I really appreciate that. That. That clears. That kind of clears it up for me.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure. Great question. Remember when the black Hebrew Israelite was like, do you know Greek? Do you know Hebrew? And I'm like, no, I never claimed to. And then he's. He's read the Shema and a butchered version of the Shema. So he's like, see, I know Hebrew. It's like, dude, that doesn't mean you know the language everybody can memorize. I mean, I just said, if I said the Greek word Eucharistia, does that make me fluent in Greek? This is so dumb. But yeah. Got people in the chat like, I, Hebrew, Musa, what's up, dog? And then we'll go to you, Sam. I see you. I see you, baby. Shaking that emoji. Shaking that emoji. What's up, Musa? I'm you.

[Alex]

Hello, sir. So I have a question about. So me and my friend are debating about the, about icons and iconoclasm, and she had a question about the council of her area. Why is that considered illegitimate? And the second council, Nicias is, and the issues between and why they consider basically illegitimate.

[Jay Dyer]

Right. So again, yeah, of course there have been false councils. So when you ask what makes a false council, false council, There could be multiple, multiple things. There could be procedural illegalities that make it not valid. There could be leaving out of many patriarchates or bishoprics that make it invalid. There could also be, you know, emperors calling it to subvert the church. There's a lot of reasons why something could be an invalid counsel. But first and foremost, every ecumenical council typically begins with saying that we intend to teach everything that the previous councils taught. So if a new council teaches something out of accord with all the ones that came before, then it would be inconsistent. And so one of the key lines of argumentation at Nicaea too had to do with whether or not they were teaching the principles of the theology that came before. And one of the first things that Nicaea2 says is that we teach the traditions of the church fathers on the validity of images. And so they'll cite St. Basil, they'll cite tradition, but they also cite other principles like Christology and whether or not that Christology consistently leads to the conclusion of icons and imagery. And the whole argument of the seventh Ecumenical Council ends up hinging on Christology and the energies. So if you read Theodore the Studite on the holy, on the holy Icons, if read John Damascus Defense Holy Images, you'll see that both of those texts, one argues philosophically, one argues theologically, you can see that the teaching of the seven ecumenical Council is the logical conclusion of the theology of Christology and the imminence of the divine energies. And that's why, by the way, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't actually really hold to the seventh Ecumenical Council. They only hold to it in name, but then they turn around and deny the presence of the energies, which is the logical, that's the whole basis of the seventh council. They also don't hold to the canons of the seventh Ecumenical Council because they violate it in most of their so called artwork, because icons are not religious art, they're part of the liturgy. And so the Roman Catholic Church deviated into teaching that it's just Sacred art or holy art. That's not what icons are. That's not what. That's not what the argumentation and principles for the liturgical worship should be according to the seventh Council. Okay, so now separate from that though, is the. This here, here's a good video. Just. Let's see.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea after the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials. And there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who was Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself. But the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the Big Game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart terms apply.

[Jay Dyer]

This will also help with that question. And if you want a book on it, read my endorsed book. Visiting Theology is a really great chapter on what actually motivated those who were at the false Council of Herrera. And it was Originism. The central theological position of the iconic class was origin. Because originisms. Neoplatonism is really what the basis for original iconoclasm is. No, most people don't know this, but if you actually understand the ideology of Originism and Neoplatonism, you have to get away from the idea of instantiated or imminent divine energies. And so Origin taught that any images like that would be a deviation because God is an absolutely simple essence, can't be in time and space. Right? That's Neoplatonism. Now, they had an inconsistent position because they said that doesn't apply to the hypostasis of the sun. But they argued that if you make an image, since the sun is the divine essence in time and space, this is the iconoclast argument, you would be trying to circumscribe the divine essence and the patristic argumentation. St. Theodore's argument is that we're not circumscribing the divine essence. Essence, we're circumscribing the Son's hypostasis, not the divine essence. And it is the Son's hypostasis that became circumscribable by becoming incarnate. Thus, if he's incarnate, it is legitimate to make a representation of the circumscribed hypostasis of the Son. Thus, the iconoclastic argument was based on collapsing person into nature and arguing that you cannot circumscribe the absolutely simple divine essence. So it was literally Neoplatonism. Also, I actually make what I think is a pretty strong argument that Roman Catholicism itself could actually be refuted by iconography. If the seventh Ecumenical Council, its theology is based on the essence energy distinction, which it is. And that's central to iconography, as St. Theodore's book argues. And St. Theodore was, along with John Damascus, you know, one of the key figures of the seventh Ecumenical Council. Oh, then you, you don't actually hold to the theology of the seventh Council because energies are central to icons. And if you understand this, this would lead you out of Roman Catholicism. Sam, what's up?

[Alex]

Hello. Thank you for having me on here. I have a couple of questions for you. My mother I've been talking to about Orthodoxy. We come from like a Calvary Chapel, you know, non denominational background. Thank you for having me convert to Orthodoxy. But she's a little bit still iffy on. Not that it's like wrong to pray quote to the saints. You know, I know that's kind of wrong verbiage for it, but she doesn't feel like God is like calling her to do that, you know, Is that like a thing that Orthodox have to do to go be Orthodox or is that more of a tertiary?

[Jay Dyer]

No, you have to believe in the communion of saints. And really when it's properly understood, it doesn't really. It tends to not really be that big of an issue. I mean, I remember as a Protestant, when I was converting to Catholicism, relics and this kind of stuff initially kind of made me feel weird. But when you understand the theology of it, you're not praying to the saint like they're a deity. The saint is part of the communion of saints, and they're interceding for us to God. Because the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Well, if that's the case, then the saints who are already in the presence of God, their prayers will avail much. You know, if. If Amos's prayers availed to the saving of Israel from destruction according to the Book of Amos, well, how much more of those are in the presence of God right now, worshiping? So it's actually to say, logical deduction of the communion of saints. Hebrews 11.

[Alex]

There.

[Jay Dyer]

That heavenly city is on earth. Now, that's what the liturgy is. Right. And so it only makes sense that we would ask them to pray for us. And in the Book of Revelation, chapters five through nine, we see them actively engaging in worship and praying for us and for the saints on earth. So in that way, it's not pagan. It's just a logical deduction. And it's also. The Jews believe this, right? The ancient Hebrew Hebraic tradition, even the first second century Jews still believe that righteous men in heaven prayed for those on earth. Let's see. Raven, and let me grab my. My book. People are asking what book are you talking about by St. Theodore. Let me go grab it off the shelf. Go ahead.

[Alex]

Wait. Me?

[Jay Dyer]

Yep.

[Alex]

Oh, hello. I. I just had a question. Your tag argument. I really like the tag argument.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm just wondering how you bridge

[Alex]

that logical argument to knowing that the one true God revealed himself to Moses. Like. Okay, okay, let me see if I can.

[Jay Dyer]

Because the tag argument is an argument for the Christian paradigm. It's not an argument just for an abstracted conception of a deity. It's just. It's an argument for the whole Christian paradigm.

[Alex]

Right, right. But. Yeah, so, sorry, I'm just a little nervous. I've been watching your content for a while, and I really enjoy it. But let me try to put it like this. You have a tag argument. Perhaps it argues for the trinitarian God that is revealed in the Bible. Okay. How do we know that the trinitarian God in the tag argument actually revealed himself to Moses? Does my question make sense? A little bit.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, because the Old Testament consistently teaches the Trinity.

[Alex]

Okay. Because the church, like Jay said, it's not like we start up from pieces and. And go okay, well, this and this, and then eventually get to orthodoxy. It's an argument for the entire paradigm. So it's the Kataholos. Right. And possibly contrary of that, that we know what the church has confirmed and always believed everywhere at all times, is the only standard and justification for knowledge. Oh. Oh, that makes a lot more sense. The impossibility of the contrary. Thank you. I've just been a little stuck on it for a little bit. How. How to jump from the logical argument to the epistemic foundation, if that kind of makes sense.

[Jay Dyer]

Yep. I got my second. My diva camera, but I can't get my diva cam to. To do the thing that it's supposed to do. But anyway, thank you for your question. Here's the book ON Holy icons, St. Theodore. And when you read that book, you'll realize that much of the argumentation is based around the energies in Christ. What's up, dog?

[Alex]

Hey, yo, what's going on, Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

What's up, dude?

[Alex]

What's going on? Quick question. All right. I'm here with everybody from my church. We just got out. We're all saying hi.

[Jay Dyer]

So what's up, dog?

[Alex]

By the way, I'm the guy that. That's massive giraffe fan, by the way. Yeah, Giraffes. Oh, why are we doing this? Massive. Who cares? Yeah. All right, I'll. I'll let you go, but I thought I'd just stop and say hi.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, well, appreciate it. And shout out to all your Paris bros. Appreciate that. American Nacho. What's up, dude? See, they understand that giraffes are fake and gay. They're not real. Who's actually seen one? What's up, American Nacho? I'm.

[Alex]

You. What's going on? I. I just had a quick question. I was doing a. Like, a debate panel the other day on Tick Tock, and it was. They were doing, like. It was like, Unitarians and polytheists and stuff. And the guy had an interesting, like, piece of information I hadn't heard. I didn't know if you knew anything about it. But he went the route of, like, saying, well, since there were. There was an early church, he named the name, but I forget it off the top of my head. But he said since there was this church that basically collected all the books that ended up becoming canon first. Is that, like, the true church? Well, I just went the route of, like, basically granting him and being like, okay, so are you saying that the gates of hell prevailed against the church? There is no true church because that goes against scripture and if you're using Scripture. But I didn't know if he had a better answer for that or if you knew what he was talking about.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, how would this lead to the gaze of hell prevailed? I don't understand.

[Alex]

Well, I said that because I was like. Well, because he's basically implying that there is no true church and we're just supposed to, like, use the Bible. You know what I mean?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. I mean, again, you know, this is just such a. It's difficult to respond to those kind of really low tiers, assertions because it's like, it's so divorced from history, so divorced from, you know, how the Bible came to be, what the Bible is. Bible's a liturgical book. Right. So a lot of these American, you know, evangelical, do it yourself or type people, they just think that it's like this book that I read and I liked it, and it's like my self help manual, and I can just craft my own little religion. It's like, why do you think that that book is your own sort of personal devotional text? Like, it's more than that. It's a communal liturgical text. It was always that way with the Jews. The Psalms, for example, those are meant to be sung in the temple liturgy. So it's not primarily a devotional book. It's the church's possession. The church is a community, and the. The church is who created the book. Paul says the church is a pillar and ground of truth. It doesn't say the book is the pillar and ground of truth. So. Juliana, what's up? Juliana, you want to unmute? Juliana, unmute. If you want to talk. Theological. What's up? Y' all need to subscribe. If you ain't subscribed to my channel, cuz I'm almost at 200, so, you know, let's. Let's help. Get me there now. Come on now. Come on now. Uncle Baby Billy is ready for you to subscribe. Come on now. What's up?

[Alex]

Oh, yes, I had a question.

[Jay Dyer]

Get your argument out now. Go ahead.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. After the big game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials. And there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still Huge. If you saw the blue square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the blue square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LIFE, LifeLock's US based restoration specialist, will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with LifeLock identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Visit LifeLock.com iHeart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iHeart terms apply.

[Alex]

I have a question about FDA's first and second order knowledge argument.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, FDA, you're on the hook, dude. You about to get exposed.

[Alex]

Oh, you heard about my first and second order, but have you heard about my third and fourth order? Oh, wow. All right, go ahead. So yeah, I actually talked with with you about Aristotelianism and all that in the server before they executed me from

[Jay Dyer]

there, but there we go.

[Alex]

Yes. I wanted to ask you about like if the argument is made stronger by saying that our justification for knowledge comes from divine conceptualism and that God has some sort of, you know, conceptualization of truth and that gives us our own sort of justification for everything else. I don't think define conceptualism. I don't, I wouldn't go go that way. First of all, I've argued along with Russ Manion that because God's transcending in him, all things move and live and have their being. He sustains them, he's created them and their natures. He's obviously in a position to know. So I don't think you need to get into divine conceptualism. But the, the person who's in a position knows, also in a position to reveal. And so I don't have to rely on epistemic bootstrapping in which part of all of the. And there's several kind of dialectical kind of tension arguments. So you can show the failure of autonomous epistemology obviously results, because as modern epistemologists have put it, there is no epistemic exile. There's nobody that's outside the system, but there is. And, and only that one who's outside, in a position, no, in a position to reveal, could solve that problem. And it reveals. So it's a negation of the, the problems, the epistemic problems that result from the finitude and the, the kind of dialectical tensions that therefore we accept as the condition the impossibility of our position, which is the other category, which is revelatory theism. But I don't think you need to go into divine conceptualism. Well, I asked, I'm asking that because, for example, right, if we're going to say like that God is in the position to know, we would then have to ask the question, like, what's the, what's the sort of mode in which that he's knowing these things? Does he, does he know these categories because it is just himself, or is he like somehow grounding them as abstract objects? Right. Because that would become another problem about epistemic bootstrapping in terms of God having to have the property to create other abstract objects. So that's why I would say, like, maybe the second that we can prove God through this argument, but then we talk about the knowledge in terms of how God is grounding it. Wouldn't we need to get more into how he knows all these other things? I don't know. That's a good question. I can tell you how he does know. That the things that are known. So you know, as if we're speaking Aristotelian terms. Right, the forms. The forms are grounded and exist and he's created them that way from the divine logo. Yeah, so he knows his divine logo and he knows the things by which he creates. The same way that, that you would if you, if you created a, a table or something, an eidos or an idea of a table, you obviously know the thing that you created because it was created from your idea. So something like that with God. But the question isn't, again, the bootstrapping problem isn't does somebody know something? It's how do we just actually justify knowing? Yeah, I'm not talking about like that. I'm just saying if we were to say, for example, if we're going to talk about like modal knowledge and how do we justify mobile knowledge, Right. That's like a pretty serious problem about how we know possibilities and stuff like that. We can point To God, Right. But then I would be asking, like, does God and the like, the abstract objects, right, that ground knowledge that is from God, are those things just Him? Does he create it in one act? Right. Or is it dependent on Him? Or are they just Him? Because if they are dependent on him, then it seems like if he's creating them, he would need the property to create such abstract objects. Right? So it would become a problem about how God himself has to pick Himself up from his own bootstraps to create other properties. Because I can see how this argument's like, like really good because it shows essentially that you have to have an external source. But when we get into the nitty gritty about how does God know things and how does that help us, right? How is he in the position to know something? I feel like we would need some kind of. I don't think you have that. Like, I can give an answer to that. I don't think you have to. To say that, well, he's on this and he's not bounded. So again, it's just a principle of negation. It's like, I don't know. Yeah, I can see how epistemic problems happen. It's because the limited scope, infinitude and, and this is why we use apophatic theology is that whatever that is, God is not. But what I can say in terms of a positive. And I don't think it's dependent on it, but like. And as far as revealed, the created things aren't him, but yes, in an analogous way, they possess the properties by which the. The divine ideas of the logo he creates them from. But they're not identical. The divine logo are much more than. Why? Because they're eternal.

[Jay Dyer]

And so the universals and a resemblance,

[Alex]

the created things bear resemblance to the ideas from which they're created or the logo.

[Jay Dyer]

So the universals, these kinds of things are not themselves uncreated ideas. They're created according to Saint Maximus and they're based on the uncreative divine ideas. I appreciate that question, but we have to move on. Devin. What's up, Guys? Remember to head over to chalk.com if you want to up your toxic masculinity. Get hold of that chalk pre workout that you can get in the Chad mode stack or you can get the mail vitality stack here. Either one, the male vitality stack has the Tonkat elite, which I'm a huge fan of. You can get that for 60 off by using the promo code J60Life. That's J Y60L. I F E and up that toxic masculinity. Become a. A dude's dude for sure. Get in the gym, get active. Devin, Unmute.

[Alex]

Hey, fan of Calvin here. You. You mentioned earlier, something about the. You mentioned earlier that sort of the. The perspective of atonement that Calvin has. You said that it led to a heresy and Christology, and I was wondering if you would expand on that a little bit.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, so if you. If Jesus has to take damnation as the punishment in our place, then you need a divided trinity, you become an anti trinitarian. Or you need a human subject, Jesus, who takes the punishment, and that would be Nestorian. So you're either Aryan or Nestorian. Either route you take. Go ahead, unmute.

[Alex]

I was just wondering if you could break that down for me. Assume I don't know what some of those terms. I know some of those terms, not all of them.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so if he's a divine person and he's damned by the Father, then he no longer indwells the Father, the Father no longer indwells him. Same with the Holy Spirit. He's cut off from the Trinity. But the Trinity has one will, one nature, one energy. They all share those same powers. And to damn the Son would be anti trinitarian. If he's a human person, the other way to get around this and he takes the damnation and he's cut off from the Son of God, then you have Nestorianism. Nestorius taught a dual subject, Christology, that there was a human person or subject, Jesus of Nazareth, who was the other person going and doing all these actions versus the Logos for the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. So either option puts you in a irresolvable dilemma if you believe in strict classical Reformation psa.

[Alex]

Thank you.

[Jay Dyer]

Yep, we got a lot of long podcasts. If you want to go into more depth with that. Feel free to check those out. Nectarios, what's up?

[Alex]

What up, queen?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes,

[Alex]

hey, one 200k.

[Jay Dyer]

Almost there.

[Alex]

I'm really happy for you. So thank God for that. But my actual question, though, I was actually just listening in on the penal substitutionary atonement. Ontologically a sin. And so we don't believe in the ontological existence of sin.

[Chelsea Handler]

However, this is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea after the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to Ignore it. As someone who was Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the blue square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the blue square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season, and by now, I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitored millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialist will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock. Identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart Terms apply.

[Alex]

Testament. And I'm just like asking for your clarification and insight on this. How is it that the Jews are able to put their sins on the scapegoat to allow it to escape if there's no ontological status of sin?

[Jay Dyer]

We just covered that. They just covered that with Father Stephen DeYoung.

[Alex]

Oh, okay. I didn't catch it. I just got here. Sorry.

[Jay Dyer]

Fine. No, I'm saying on YouTube, go watch Stephen DeYoung on PSA. They spent extensive amount of time going into that. Caleb, what's up? Caleb, you want to unmute? Caleb ayala on mute. Bobby, what's up, dude?

[Alex]

Hello.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, what's up?

[Alex]

What's up? Jake? First time here. Thank you for all you do. I don't remember if it was this Redo Redeem Zoomer video or another one, but he said that the reason he would choose, he would choose Catholicism over orthodoxy was because of the Papacy and also because the. A lot more better art and music and classical music has come out of the west than out of the East. And he, he almost implied that, like nothing good came out of the East. And I was just wondering if you can, you know, talk about, I mean,

[Jay Dyer]

Those are all retarded reasons and they have nothing to do with which position is theologically correct or not. So all just totally irrelevant. Nothing to do with whether the Billy Okway is true or false. Payment fallibility true or false. So just terrible arguments. Jason, what's up? More better art. Who got some more better art? That's where I'm going to pick my church and my religion. And who got some more better art? Jason? I'm mute.

[Alex]

Hey Jay, I just want to say thanks for everything you do. First of all, I wanted to bring a little attention to just the fact that the Seventh Day Adventist Church is equivalent in being a completely. Basically just a fake and gay cult.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. It's a judaizing charismatic to the rest of. It's a quasi charismatic judaizing culture.

[Alex]

Right. I feel like it gets less slack. Like people don't hate it as much as a cult because it's accepted as a denomination, but it's literally the same as Islam or, you know, any of the rest of them.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, probably because they don't explicitly teach anti trinitarianism, but I mean they teach everything else. That's ridiculous. So I mean, it's judaizing. I mean it's everything. It's really dumb.

[Alex]

It's just another one with a fake modern prophet. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And she claimed to be. She claimed to speak in tongues and have charismatic gifts. It's really dumb.

[Alex]

Yeah. If you, if you did a video specifically on that or maybe even tie in Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons too because I know you've addressed some of them. Some that'd be appreciated because I feel like, like the masses just don't realize that the Seventh Day Adventist Church also has a modern day prophet and is a cult.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a good idea. And I think I even mentioned SDA in my charismatic refutation videos because I said people overlook the fact that this is actually a charismatic cult because Ellen White claimed to have visions and charismatic gifts. And so she's. She's in the same boat as all those other cults. Julian$10J I'm a slow learner. Let me know when you're taking applications. I appreciate you connecting the dots and so many issues. Thank you. So boy, $5 review the nick Cage Spider man noir movie that's coming out or show Cage tradition must prevail. I do want to see that. We did a studio tour when we were in la. It was the last studio tour that we hadn't done. So we did mgm, Warner Brothers, Paramount, Universal, and then we Had. Well, Sony MGM was the last one, so we did that. And they were. We did. We saw the studio where they had just filmed some of the Nick Cage noir Spider Man. So it'll be fun. We might, we might tie that in also with the alien disclosure theme that's out here now. Tyler, what's up? Tyler, Unmute tyler. MDD $5. What is the. For a newbie? The best orthodox for dummy book. What Orthodox are you? I mean, all orthodox that are canonical are Orthodox, so. But I attend a Russian Orthodox church. Tyler, what's up? I'm you. Tyler, do you want to talk? You have to unmute, man. I don't know what the point is sitting there waiting forever to not talk. Is MDD the best orthodoxy for dummies? I mean, it really depends on kind of what your background is, but I would say maybe you could read something like Orthodox Dogmatics by Palmazonski is a good place to start. 2 ton, $10 co perspector crashes out every day with cold posting. Yeah, I think that's really. His whole profile is just to kind of gain a following by just constantly posting non tier low tier nonsense. So that's, that's really all he's ever done. And that's why he won't debate. I mean, he, he says, oh, I, I can't debate publicly because I'd lose my job. Like, what? Emmy, $6. Would you debate Corey Mer? No. He's a waste of time in a psycho. Please say the scam Shamu line. What's the scam Shamu line? I'll play the scam Shamu song, but I don't know what the. What the line is. Al bar where he. Where he screaming Whipluss, $5. What is up with alchemy? Everywhere there's schizos, gay feminists, occultists. What if alt theists talked about it? And it got me wondering. I mean, alchemy is an ancient Greek idea that you can master the essences and spiritual principles behind various compounds and in some way, you know, create what they call the philosopher's stone. And that's interpreted in a lot of different ways as technology or eternal life or individual spiritual transformation. I mean, alchemists have had all kinds of different interpretations of what alchemy is. And Western hermeticism has always sort of rebranded it and used it. Whether it's Rosicrucians or whether it's the Freemasons, all of these esoteric groups try to lay claim to some form of alchemy, but really modern chemistry it comes out of medieval alchemy, so they just dispense with all the esoteric stuff and now it's just chemistry. So. But I think probably because people watch, you know, YouTubers and all this stuff and, you know, they see what they perceive to be esoteric things and, ooh, it's deep and mystical and it's just a bunch of gibberish usually. So. But I'm not sure. I'm not familiar with a resurgence of alchemy, but maybe it's getting popular online. I don't know. Vanessa, $10. The Soccer World cup will be in the U.S. i bet they've got some kind of fake flag event. What do you think? Very possible. I'm surprised we haven't had more fake flag events. But then again, doesn't seem like they need false flag events. Like, it seems like they just do whatever they want. Like, I was on a several podcasts where we talked about Iran and all this. It was like, well, wow, they didn't. Trump didn't. They didn't care about having some fake flag event. They just did. Did a war without anyone else's concern. Underwater umbrella. What's up? Hello.

[Alex]

Huh? Yeah, we follow the what? The Eastern Orthodox liturgical calendar. Correct. We?

[Jay Dyer]

Who we? Yeah, I guess. What do you mean?

[Alex]

Oh, okay. That's all I wanted to ask. Thank you.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, it's open for him. I've still got some energy. We've been going for a good while now. We've got good, strong audience over here. Reginald says for $10 is it possible to do a Captain Crack Rock impression? The Bible, I mean, I don't really remember how he talks. It was something like the Bible says Lucretia. I mean, I kind of did that in that song. I think it's Captain Crack Rock, the cinema song. Isn't it the song that was the cringe core song. Adler, what's up, dude? We got villains from Resident Evil in the chat. What's up?

[Alex]

What's up?

[Jay Dyer]

Got some way stranger.

[Alex]

Yeah, it's actually a Cod character, but yeah, I was just curious what your thoughts were on Nick telling people to like, vote Democrat. I just think it's kind of short sighted. I was kind of curious what you thought.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, you can't morally, as a orthodox Christian, you can't morally vote and support people who are actively wicked. So I would say no. Jacob is Nick. Cage is the knowing alien adjacent. Yes, it is. But we've done it on my channel many times, so, I mean, look at my. You know, we might revisit Nick and the aliens. We'll see. Jacob, on you. The Bible. The Bible, huh?

[Alex]

So I said a couple questions. Orthodoxy in general, like, I'm pretty new to Christianity overall, and I just had some questions.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Alex]

So like, I'm trying a little bit nervous. Haven't been up on these fours, but. So, like, lesson friends are joining. Give me a second. Please. Bear with me.

[Jay Dyer]

Just, just spit out one question, bro. It's all good.

[Alex]

So, like, Can you scripturally find, like, give me like, examples of like, where, like one true church doctrines, like he comes from

[Jay Dyer]

that there's. I mean, Paul says in Ephesians there's one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one body. So there can't be two bodies, two faiths, two baptisms.

[Alex]

I see, I see. I'll look into that one. One more how I know the. Not too far Church history overall, but like, if, if there is a one true Church, how or can we be 100 sure orthodoxy is that and it's not the other people who claim it, like by Catholics.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Well, you have to read. I would say the easiest way to go about that would be look at the councils and the canons of the councils of the first seven centuries. So it might take you a little while to read some of that. I'm not telling you to read every single canon, but if you start reading, you know, the canons of Nicaea, statement and canons of Constantinople, 1, Ephesus, Chalcedon, Constant, Noble 2 and 3 Nicaea 2, you're going to notice, hey, you know, they teach. Go ahead, Alex. They. They teach what Orthodoxy teaches. Rome doesn't teach. In process, don't teach. So it's that simple. What's up?

[Alex]

I was going to say, for the one true church doctrine, I think those verses in the New Testament are probably like the best primary proof text, but like secondarily are all the prophecies about the Church in the Old Testament. Right, Right. So like in Daniel 2, it says that at the time of these kings, you know, referring to Rome, Greece, Persia. At the time of these kings, the stone uncut by human hands will come. That's God's kingdom and it will last forever. It will never be replaced by another. And there's like the Christmas passages where it says the government will be upon his shoulders, upon Christ's shoulders. That's one government. That's not many governments.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, a great point. And I have an old video where I go through the Old Testament prophecies about the Church actually also proving Christianity and Proverbs proving. Because they're prophecies and proving that it's not Protestantism or Rome. Right? So that's an old video, I think it's called Is the New Testament Reliable? It's like an eight year old video. And we go some through some of the same argumentation that our good friend Alex was saying right there. Daniel, who is a pastor. Oh, Daniel the pastor. What's up dog? I don't know. It's not letting you join, so I don't know what's going on. Like when I add you, Daniel, it just immediately, okay, he left so he's not blocked. I don't know why it won't let him join. But hey, I would have loved to have a pastor up in here. Come back, Pastor Vesper. What's up? Maybe it was a maybe Twitter sometimes thinks profiles are bots or something. I don't know. Sometimes it happens where it's like it won't let a person join the Twitter space. I don't know why. Vesper, I'm you.

[Alex]

Hello? Yep. What's going on?

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea, after the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's tax season and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers. But here's an important one you need to $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialist will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock, identity theft protection for tax season and beyond visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart terms apply.

[Alex]

I'm wondering if you have some sort of defeater for naturalism.

[Jay Dyer]

I would say the defeater would be like, it could lead to the. The determinist fallacy or no way to distinguish between good and the good and the true and the false and the evil. And no basis for knowledge. All the naturalism would lead to all those things.

[Alex]

Oh, wow. No basis for knowledge.

[Jay Dyer]

Justifying knowledge. Yes.

[Alex]

So how do you, how do you justify knowledge?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I would say in a theist paradigm, we would not have the problems for justification that a naturalist paradigm would have. So my justification would be the Christian paradigm.

[Alex]

And how did you come to that determination?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I came to it through a lot of different means. It would be reading, it would be living, it would be people that I learned from. All those things would contribute to how I came to it.

[Alex]

Okay, it's like we both agree that the natural world exists at least, right?

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, maybe, but I would say that if you're a naturalist, you couldn't give an account for what that even means. You couldn't explain to me or give an account for how words even have meaning, but I believe there's an external world that I could call a natural world.

[Alex]

Oh, so you're denying intelligibility on. On naturalism, that it's possible.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct.

[Alex]

Based upon what?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I said earlier the naturalist ability

[Alex]

for things to be understood. Right.

[Jay Dyer]

That naturalism tends to lead to the determinist fallacy and that it can't give an account for the preconditions of knowledge, to have knowledge at all. Why is that funny?

[Alex]

I'm just wondering what is necessary for

[Jay Dyer]

knowledge, the preconditions of knowledge.

[Alex]

Which is what?

[Jay Dyer]

Logical categories, universals, meaning concepts,

[Alex]

forms. So when you said we believe in nature, that term is ambiguous because when we believe in nature, we believe there are immaterial essences and forms. We believe in universals. I doubt that's what.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I mean, the naturalist paradigm is. The naturalist paradigm is against metaphysics. And so when you say I believe in the natural world, you don't even realize you're making a metaphysical claim in that very phrase.

[Alex]

Well, yeah, Naturalism is the metaphysic.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but most nasty. Okay, but most modern naturalists have given up the project of justifying metaphysical claims. So I'm just going to ask you how in your naturalist paradigm you can justify doing and knowing anything metaphysical?

[Alex]

I mean, you're saying it's unjustified is empirical. Does empirical evidence not count for anything?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, how does empirical.

[Alex]

Because that has to be subsumed. There's no such thing as empirical evidence. It's not theory laden.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Alex]

Anybody that knows anything theory laden. What it needs to have a theory behind it to back it up.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. Every observation is theory related.

[Alex]

Thing that's considered evidence is already contaminated with theory. So you can't just say empirical evidence. Evidence doesn't just speak for itself.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct.

[Alex]

Theory to apply to.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, there's no brute facts. Correct.

[Alex]

Never read anything about this. Everybody knew.

[Jay Dyer]

Why are you laughing about this? Like all of modern philosophy and you're giggling like you're some sort of condescending expert. Like this is basic philosophy.

[Alex]

So evidence needs to be interpreted. It doesn't just speak for itself.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't know that. This is dominates modern philosophical discourse and you're giggling like you're some expert. You're Reddit level dude. Come on.

[Alex]

Quickly. Add also that as a practicing attorney and litigator, evidence does not speak for itself. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. Really? Yes, of course. Evidence does not speak for itself. It needs an explanation. It needs to fit. Like Father Deacon was saying, it needs to fit within a theory. So like a photograph of a murderer stabbing somebody is not proof of that? Of that action has to be interpreted? Absolutely.

[Jay Dyer]

Actually yes, a photograph has to be interpreted.

[Alex]

Show photographs. There'd be no lawyers or prosecutors, was it? Your honor. Here's the photographs. They speak for themselves. Right?

[Jay Dyer]

And this is too late here.

[Alex]

This is.

[Jay Dyer]

This is dumb. Let's see who's next? White Mountains. What's up? Yeah, I can tell that's not going anywhere. I'm not. We're not going to give a whole course in linguistic philosophy and meaning and epistemology to a Reddit man tonight. What's up, man?

[Alex]

Hello.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[Alex]

Sorry. Okay, so I have a question. I'm still new, so if I like mispronounce anything or just sound. I'm sorry. So we've been inquiring into the Orthodox Church and we are going to a Greek Orthodox Archdiocese church. So I didn't know like there was like a difference. I thought, you know, it was a. All the same thing. But then I was watching some of your videos and you were talking about how it's like a Rothschilds, like funded like.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I never said that the Greek Orthodox Church is funded by the Rothschilds.

[Alex]

The, the. The Archdiocese of America. Like, go on.

[Jay Dyer]

I never said that it's funded by the Rothschilds.

[Alex]

It was like a video or something.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I have never said that they're funded by the Rothschilds. Where did I say that?

[Alex]

That. I don't know. It was a good short. But anyways.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I didn't say that, though. I didn't say that.

[Alex]

Like, funded, I guess, by, like, the Democrat Party, and they have a lot of liberal views and stuff like that.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not. I didn't say the Rothchilds funded the. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, although I wouldn't be surprised. But I never said that.

[Alex]

Well, maybe I misunderstood, but. So I guess my question is, like, should I not go there? Because, like, I know in one of your videos you said, like, they're not all bad, and I do really like the parish that we're going to, but, like, they are, like, pretty liberal. And I thought that it was just because, like, we're in Massachusetts and, like, everybody here is pretty liberal. But, like, then I watched your video and I was like, oh, damn.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to be insensitive to it. I mean, but I mean, they do have a lot of influence from the Democratic Party. The Greeks have been for many years, you know, prominent members of the Democratic Party. There's a close alliance there. So I can't say where you should and shouldn't go to church because it really should be based on the local church. So, you know, you have to. You have to make that decision. Like, when there's, you know, a red line in the sand to go to a different parish. Usually, I would say if that's something where you're, you know, whether outright saying something heretical, which maybe they are. Oh, we got a trans maga person. Is that. That's probably a joke, Listy.

[Alex]

Yeah. What's it called? I started inquiring that Greek Orthodox, like, probably like a year and a half ago, and I got baptized Chrismated, and I received Communion. Communion today. And I just want to say thank you because your videos really helped me, you know, because I was probably gonna become Lutheran or RSC or something, you know.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. But I just want to thank you. Thank you, Listy. Appreciate that, man. Many years to you. Appreciate that. Blaze. What's up, dude? Dude. Blazing, dude. Getting blazed. What's up, dog?

[Alex]

What's up, family? I just want to come in here real quick. I got some questions for Father Deacon. I just want to preface here that I am not a Latinizer by any means, but I was going through Athanasius's letter to Marcellinus the, the monk on the Psalms and Augustine's, one of Augustine's tractates on John, on the Gospel of John. And they both say that Jesus took on the wrath of God. I want to know, Father Deacon, how would you interpret their. Their views?

[Jay Dyer]

Can I answer the question before he does?

[Alex]

No, you cannot.

[Jay Dyer]

I can give you permission.

[Alex]

No, go ahead.

[Jay Dyer]

So John of Damascus answers this question in on the Orthodox Faith. And he says the sense in which he took on punishment is what's called by appropriation. So if you look at on the Orthodox Faith right here and you go to book three and you leave the read the last three chapters down, all the way down at the bottom of on the Orthodox Faith, he explains what happens when Christ prays, what happens in the garden, what happens when he says, let this cup pass from me, what it means to be this by appropriation. So he says there are attributes or things that you can say which are natural and essential or that are relative. And so he goes on to say that if he's punished or if he becomes a curse, see this to become accursed. It means that it's by appropriation, meaning that he became as if he were one curse from human vantage point. It does not mean that the Father literally cursed him. How could he be cursed when he is the divine, perfect holy Son of God? Right. And also doesn't mean that his human nature is, quote, cursed. Except that he took on our weakness in assuming bodily death. So the punishment is the death, meaning the severance of the soul from the body. It is not eternal damnation or spiritual death. Because the next couple paragraphs say the Word could never be separated from his human body, even when the soul is separated from the body. When he dies, he is still the divine Person of the Word to both the soul and the body, when the soul descends into Hades to harrow Hades. So if we read this, we understand the Holy Spirit never severs Jesus from the Godhead. The Father never damns Jesus. The punishment and the cursing is his willful assuming of the death that he. That he went through in his human nature.

[Alex]

Yeah, like the, the via appropriation. I think even like Cyril of Alexandria says that Christ was like a damned man on the cross.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, that's appropriation. It's not saying that God the Father damned him.

[Alex]

Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah, exactly, he was. But yeah, it's like, it's like, like via appropriation. Yeah, it's because. Yeah, I just been talking.

[Jay Dyer]

Can I. Let me read this. Let's read this.

[Alex]

Find some common ground with them and whatnot.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you don't have to find common ground with them because the the no, no orthodox theologians or bishops teach what they're saying. It's just like 20 year old dudes on the Internet, so it doesn't matter what they say.

[Alex]

And this shows and Alex was on Steven the Young cleaving myself this shows it exactly why there has to be a living ecclesial body, Episcopal body. That's not to say that bishops can't get stuff wrong, but we can't actually solve these problems by just looking at the text alone. I can't ask St. Augustine or whoever we're looking up. Well, what did you mean by that? Or Saint Filler at and that's why in terms of the whole context, it's not only all of the Fathers, but

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[Alex]

Com.