Tim Pool (2:04)

It was a like mining and well

Jay Dyer (2:06)

they, they wanted to have a standard for like in a company town. Like everybody had the same outfit. So I'm not saying, not saying they make profits. I'm just saying like a company town. You could say it's, it's Levi Strauss

Tim Pool (2:18)

invented blue jeans and it was in the United States denim work pants. But it was made by.

Jay Dyer (2:25)

In San Francisco, company town.

Rattlesnake TV Host (2:27)

He made everything. What?

Jay Dyer (2:28)

Are you kidding me?

Tim Pool (2:29)

You mean in the US it was like company towns?

Jay Dyer (2:31)

Like a company town is not really a capitalist institution. Like, they make money, but, like, you have to buy everything from the company town.

Tim Pool (2:38)

Well, I, I disagree with that. I mean, if there's a barren wasteland and a company's like, we need to import a bunch of people and there's no industry here, then they have to create means by which people can choose to buy food.

Jay Dyer (2:50)

But it's not classical libertarian free market. If everybody has to shop at the company town, it might be the.

Tim Pool (2:56)

But, but, but again, the point is, if no town exists and they build it, they're sure it's like a commissary other options, right? So I wouldn't call it communist. Well, it's called monopolistic.

Jay Dyer (3:08)

Okay, but I mean, if you're a libertarian, monopolistic capitalism isn't classical libertarianism.

Tim Pool (3:13)

Also, again, so, like, if, if, if, If I personally have a private piece of land and I hire a bunch of people and they're like, hey, there's no restaurants anywhere. What do we eat? And I go, all right, I guess I'll have the crew come and open up a restaurant, but you got to pay for the food. Is that communism?

Jay Dyer (3:27)

It's. I mean, again, monopoly capitalism isn't really.

Tim Pool (3:30)

Hold on. This is not. This is. This is not an issue of. There's no competition. Like, it's an issue.

Jay Dyer (3:35)

There is no.

Tim Pool (3:35)

I mean, it's an issue if there's no competition, not forcing people to do anything that. So is the alternative. I just go, you know what, guys? I'm going to open a restaurant where only I get to eat. You're actually not. Not allowed to eat it. Because I don't want to be a communist.

Jay Dyer (3:45)

Right, but this is the same argument as to why people would own, like, an entire water supply, right? So if you privatize water, then no one has a right to the water.

Tim Pool (3:54)

But, but I'm not talking about that. I'm saying there's.

Jay Dyer (3:56)

But a company town could own the water in.

Tim Pool (3:58)

Indeed. What right do you have to take it? That's communist.

Jay Dyer (4:01)

It's not communist to have public mun. Municipalities.

Tim Pool (4:06)

Wait, what?

Jay Dyer (4:07)

It's not.

Tim Pool (4:08)

I own a swath of land, right? And I invite you to come work.

Rattlesnake TV Host (4:11)

It's not specifically communist to have public municipalities. Like, lots of different systems have public municipalities, right?

Tim Pool (4:19)

I have to now relinquish my right to the water body and my property.

Jay Dyer (4:22)

No, I'm saying if you're going to create a society or civilization. And you have. If you own the entirety of.

Tim Pool (4:28)

We're talking about company towns. We're talking about company.

Jay Dyer (4:29)

Well, that's the beginning of a civilization, right? It's no different.

Tim Pool (4:32)

Right? So. So the point you bring up is that if I own, let's say, 100 acres and I. I have a grain mill on it, and then I can't produce that much.

Rattlesnake TV Host (4:44)

So.

Tim Pool (4:44)

So a handful of people are like, howdy, good sir. We could increase the output of the grain if you give us. If you let us come. And I say, all right, you know what? I'm going to. Actually, I'll pay you guys a share of the grain that you mill. Thank you for voluntarily coming and offering this service. They then say, there's nowhere to eat for miles. And I go, well, unfortunately, if I were to create something by which you could purchase food, that would be communism.

Jay Dyer (5:06)

So, no, it's not communism.

Rattlesnake TV Host (5:09)

So.

Tim Pool (5:09)

So then if I. If I, as the landowner and the private piece of land, and I hire a bunch of people, and they're like, hey, there's no restauran restaurants anywhere. What do we eat? I go, all right, I guess I'll have the crew come and open up a restaurant. But you got to pay for the food. Is that communism?

Jay Dyer (5:22)

It's. I mean, again, monopoly capitalism isn't really.

Tim Pool (5:25)

Hold on. This is not. This is. This is not an issue of there's no competition. Like, it's an issue.

Jay Dyer (5:30)

It is. There is no.

Tim Pool (5:31)

I mean, it's an issue of there's no competition.

Rattlesnake TV Host (5:33)

Chase Haggard says, I like Tim, but Tim was lost in this entire exchange. Chase, what are you doing? Do you want to come and review this with me? Do you want to jump in Rachel's office? Because once we get to the epistemology part, it would be. Because this communism part is all fun and everything, but in five or 10 minutes, it gets the religious part of things. Chase, you want to jump on, review this with me? Chase would be a fricking good addition to this here. If you can. If you can set up your camera. Your camera somewhere in the office or whatever.

Tim Pool (5:59)

Not forcing people to do anything that. So is the alternative. I just go, you know what, guys? I'm going to open a restaurant where only I get to eat. You're actually not. Not allowed to eat. I don't want to be a communist.

Jay Dyer (6:07)

Right, but this is the same argument as to why people would own, like, an entire water supply, right? So if you privatize water, then no one has a right to the water

Tim Pool (6:15)

But I'm not talking about that.

Jay Dyer (6:16)

I'm saying there's a company town could own the water.

Tim Pool (6:19)

Indeed. What right do you have to take it? That's communist.

Jay Dyer (6:22)

It's not communist to have municipalities.

Tim Pool (6:26)

Wait, what?

Jay Dyer (6:27)

It's not.

Tim Pool (6:28)

I own a swath of land.

Jay Dyer (6:29)

Right.

Tim Pool (6:30)

And I invite you to come work on it.

Jay Dyer (6:32)

Right.

Tim Pool (6:32)

I have to now relinquish my right to the water body and my property.

Jay Dyer (6:35)

No, I'm saying if you're going to create a society or civilization and you have. If you own the entirety.

Tim Pool (6:40)

We're talking about company towns. We're talking about company.

Jay Dyer (6:42)

Well, that's the beginning of a civilization, Right? It's no different.

Tim Pool (6:45)

Right? So. So the point you bring up is that if I own, let's say, 100 acres and I. I have a grain mill on it, and then I can't produce that much, so a handful of people are like, howdy, good sir. We could increase the output of the grain if you give us. If you let us come. And I say, all right, you know what? I'm going to. Actually, I'll pay you guys a share of the grain that you mill. Thank you for voluntarily coming and offering this service. They then say, there's nowhere to eat for miles. And I go, well, unfortunately, if I were to create something by which you could purchase food, that would be communism. So.

Jay Dyer (7:19)

No, it's not communism.

Tim Pool (7:22)

So, so then if I, If I, as the landowner and the company owner, then say, I will open a restaurant on the property for you from which you can purchase goods. That's the beginning of communism.

Jay Dyer (7:30)

So. But you're describing a situation of a small microcosm where there's no competition.

Tim Pool (7:34)

Like a company town, right?

Jay Dyer (7:36)

Well, there's no competition. Doesn't capitalism require competition?

Tim Pool (7:40)

And who's stopping people from opening a restaurant across the street?

Jay Dyer (7:43)

Well, you would. If you. If you have a common.

Tim Pool (7:45)

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. If I own property.

Jay Dyer (7:47)

You said monopoly capitalism. That would. You would be. Then stopping the competition in a monopoly capitalist situation.

Tim Pool (7:52)

No, no, no. We're talking about a company town, Right. Privately owned property.

Jay Dyer (7:56)

Right.

Tim Pool (7:56)

So do they have to relinquish their water rights?

Jay Dyer (8:00)

If the city, if it grows to a certain size, where you begin to have competition, that's literally communism.

Tim Pool (8:06)

Seizing the assets from the private landowners. No, literally going to a guy who owned land and says, there's too many people here now, so your water is ours.

Rattlesnake TV Host (8:14)

That's sounds like communism.

Jay Dyer (8:17)

No, no, if it's. If, if you grow to where you have a society that requires Competition, then

Tim Pool (8:22)

the people can seize your assets. Agreed.

Jay Dyer (8:24)

We're communists if there's competition. But first of all, by the way, Marx was a libertarian, so it begets real.

Tim Pool (8:32)

We're not talking about. I don't care about Marx.

Jay Dyer (8:34)

Marx was a little. Well, you're accusing me of communism then?

Tim Pool (8:36)

No, no, I'm. I'm not accusing you. I'm arguing the argument communist. If your argument is private land ownership is void upon excess population. That's literally a function of communism. That's what the Venezuelans did.

Jay Dyer (8:49)

What you're describing is literally just communism itself. A company town is essentially the same as a communist setup. That's.

Tim Pool (8:56)

It is. It is not.

Jay Dyer (8:57)

It is identical.

Tim Pool (8:58)

It's completely not.

Jay Dyer (8:59)

I don't know.

Tim Pool (8:59)

So. So the people own the land.

Jay Dyer (9:01)

In a company town.

Tim Pool (9:02)

In a company town, the people are the people. The people have. If we are talking about the structures of communism by which there is a private committee and there's two ways we can look at it, your argument seems to fuse together both the authoritarian dictatorship components and the economic.

Jay Dyer (9:22)

That's monopoly capitalism. That's where you're arguing.

Tim Pool (9:24)

If the argument is people can voluntarily choose to come and work for a company, but there is no competition because there's no market reason for it. It's not communism. It's just a monopoly. But there's no oppression. And it doesn't matter because you can always choose to leave.

Jay Dyer (9:38)

You can always choose to leave. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, why did you go there in the West? And then like, again, bro, I got.

Tim Pool (9:44)

I got to tell you, if the argument is I have no choice in my circumstances, therefore I should get public

Jay Dyer (9:50)

rights, it's literally not what I said.

Rattlesnake TV Host (9:52)

This guy's a communist.

Tim Pool (9:53)

So then leave, Right? Why can't you?

Jay Dyer (9:55)

Well, you can say that, but in a company town, especially like in situations when the 1800s company towns are being set up, you didn't have the ability to just leave, right? Well, they're holding you at gunpoint. I mean, well, if you're under a contract, you might have to be there.

Tim Pool (10:08)

Why did you sign the contract? Well, is it communism to voluntarily enter into an agreement with a company?

Jay Dyer (10:13)

Yeah, but you can call it voluntary.

Rattlesnake TV Host (10:15)

Tim's a big. Tim's big on this. When he does the debates, he will do a lot of interrupting. He'll get very excited and he'll do a lot of shotgunning, whereas Jay is pretty much the opposite right now in this particular moment. Just as cool as a cucumber, even.

Jay Dyer (10:32)

There's A situation where something can be voluntary that you're actually locked into. Right. I mean, I can.

Tim Pool (10:36)

You chose to enter into a contract.

Jay Dyer (10:38)

Amazon owns an entire area and it's the only place to work then to say, well, you can move and you can. Yeah, but it's. Yeah, but it's still a form of wage slavery. Right? You don't think there's such thing as.

Tim Pool (10:49)

No, I don't. I think that's commie talk. Well, I think this is quite literally the arguments of Chavez and the arguments of Bernie Sanders. And my point that I often bring up to these leftists is what's stopping you from just being a vagrant on federal land. There's no difference you want from my system without input. And that is the component of the left that I disagree with.

Jay Dyer (11:14)

This. Your argument is a leftist argument, actually,

Tim Pool (11:17)

that people should have to work.

Jay Dyer (11:18)

Classical liberalism is a leftist position. You argue classical liberalism. That's a what I'm arguing this position,

Tim Pool (11:24)

what I'm arguing for merit based capitalism is leftist.

Jay Dyer (11:28)

Yes, Classical liberalism. Out of the Enlightenment.

Tim Pool (11:31)

That is incorrect.

Jay Dyer (11:31)

No, out of the Enlightenment class.

Tim Pool (11:34)

The origin of the left is the left aisle in the French Revolution, referring to those who wanted a socialist anti monarchist and the right wanted a top down monarchist system. Okay, so you're arguing the French Revolution. No, it was the French Revolution. It was the left and the right.

Jay Dyer (11:52)

The French Revolution wanted a constitutional monarchy on the right and they wanted private property on the right. The leftist wanted communism.

Tim Pool (12:00)

Indeed. So when we say left and right in an economic sense, it refers to left meaning communal. Right, meaning that's closer to laissez faire.

Jay Dyer (12:07)

That's classical liberalism, which is against the traditional position of church and state.

Tim Pool (12:13)

This is the argument that, that Carl

Jay Dyer (12:15)

makes about, about liberalism. Now what's the argument that Sargon of Akkad. This is. I'm only saying they're similar that that liberalism is actually a, a creation of

Tim Pool (12:29)

the left and that the ultimate form. I'm not, I am not advocating for in this circumstance, classical liberalism. I'm advocating for private rights. Yeah, yeah, but.

Rattlesnake TV Host (12:39)

And this is where it goes off the rails. I mean, that part was like kind of boring. When they're saying you're more communist, you're more communist, whatever. This is where it gets really interesting. And this is where Tim really gets quite the spanking because he starts now advocating for rights. Jay asks him to basically ground his rights in something. Where do you get your rights from? Tim appeals to God and appeals to universals. And then Jay just basically calls him out on just a series like everywhere Tim steps after that is a fallacy. He steps onto a fallacy everywhere that he goes after that, after he makes those claims. So yes, guys, we might have to get this jono bar up though before we move on, honestly. Might have to be how it is today. Because they're humble dono bars. Today they're humble dono bars. I think we have to get to at least half before I move on here. I know, I know. Aussie man. Bad Aussie man. Bad Aussie man. Mean, but we need to get one of these dono bars up, whether it be the stream elements or the YouTube demo bar. Yeah, yeah, Beaten Cheeks did donate on stream elements but 20 and 20 and up comes through though. But he said it's extremely unhealthy to speak to someone like this. They them they'd have a stroke after speaking longer than 15 minutes straight. His poor knees. Also, I have 20 days left left of Twitter. Jail free speech my ass. Yeah, yeah, that was. Yeah, that was a sad site that we were watching before. If you guys didn't see that one, it was a sad sight indeed. A sad site. Yep. Aussie man on strike. That's true, guys. Commie tactics. That's right. No, pretty capitalist actually. Pretty capitalist. And anybody who has a problem with it, I'll just ban you for life. That's, that's fine because you know, unlike the commies, I actually like to get paid for my work. And you know, I've got different aspects of the audience. I've got some of the audience that really likes.

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Jay Dyer (15:17)

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Tim Pool (15:20)

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Rattlesnake TV Host (15:24)

The Long form videos I got some audience that really like the streams. Blame passage with 20 says Tim is having they them energy a little bit like that, isn't it? Thank you very much Blaine. Yeah, so I've got some audience that likes the short form appeal to. They appeal to the Instagram. Everything appeals to him. That's great. I've got some audience that only really like. Most of my audience on Rattlesnake TV only ever watches the I'll just let you know guys know how it works. Most of the audience only ever watches the long form videos and most of my income comes from the long form videos and then putting sponsors on the long term long form videos. So streaming is something that I kind of do as more of a fun thing for a pastime. But four hours of my time is just a lot. So this is why I have the dono goals and why I need to actually fill them up and why I'm shameless about grifting because I need to get paid for my time, guys. Otherwise I've got a whole team who relies on me, you know, a lot of people who rely on me to make to make this content to go out and write scripts and got advertisers who are freaking wanting wanting me to make videos and everything. So there's a lot going on. So the streams all good and everything enjoy doing them but there needs to be these need to get greased and that's just the way that it goes guys. So if anybody doesn't like that and if you want to call it e begging or whatever, then I'll just ban you for life and you can go yourself as far as I'm concerned. So yeah, you if you don't like it basically anyways. Yeah, that's just the way it goes, guys. Not a Mossad agent for 20 says this money is not from any intelligence agency. Not a Mossad agent. What have I told you about publicly donating money to me, Mossad? What have I told you about publicly donating? Hey, come on now. Beaten cheeks for 20 says I'm here for the commie hatred commies for the win. Beaten cheeks. At least you're funny, you know what I mean? I try to find a way to make fun of beaten cheeks today. How can we give shit to beaten cheeks? He's one of those ones who it's fun to. It's fun to chat Spa with Tiffany for 10 says, I'm making smoked chicken with fried rice for the fam. Always great takes, Jake. Well, thank you, Tiffany, and I hope the fam enjoys it. Nothing better than a home cooked meal from a woman with love. Shameless gift for a shameless grift, says Josh. Thank you, sir. Much appreciated, my friend. Much, much appreciated. Yeah, sloppy job by Massad. That is so true. And Billy Schmidt's for 10 over on the Stream element side. Thanks for your time, Jake. Did I miss Rachel? Yeah, I think you can re. Fast rewind it though. You can rewind it and you can catch her over there. 20 more on the super chat side, guys, and then we'll get back into it. 20 more on the super chat side, then we'll get back into it. Or 20 more on the stream elements side and then we'll get back into what? We're all here to see the debate. Missed the boat on those 7.7k shekels. How do you guys know I'm not getting the 7k? What an insult that you guys automatically assume that I'm not getting my seven. I think that that's. That's sort of like you saying to me, rattlesnake, I think that you're not a shrewd businessman. What an absolute insult. Blaine Pasashik says. Says Beaten Cheeks is a Indian woman. That was a good one. Now that was a good one by Blaine Pasarcic. That is true. That is true. Actually, Beaten Cheeks is a Indian woman. And Shelby says for your time in trouble. Thanks for the live stream reviews. They've been peak content. Well, thank you, Shelby. Thank you. Appreciate that. All right, let's get back into it, shall we? Now that the palms are sufficiently green.

Chase Haggard (18:45)

The only point that I'm making is

Tim Pool (18:47)

that his perspective is similar to Carl's perspective. Sure, but that's immaterial to the argument being made.

Jay Dyer (18:53)

It's not because what you're. You're saying that you're a socialist, you're a Marxist. But I. What I'm arguing would be the same as any medieval village philosophy. And they weren't Marxists or socialists back in the Middle ages. Like if you went to a French village.

Tim Pool (19:04)

Okay, again, if the core of your argument is there's a private landowner, 20 years later, there's now 300 people working in this land. We now transfer the private rights from the landowner to a communal function.

Rattlesnake TV Host (19:17)

Joel B. With 20 over on stream island says, via steadfast and unwavering support and propaganda, propagation of our shared Judeo Christian values. Joel don't make me crash out. Don't make me jump out now beaten cheeks. Don't quit, bro. Don't quit beating cheeks. What would your family think? You're an Indian woman. So what would like, how are you going to get a nice big dowry payment for your hand in marriage if you just quit? Who's going to pay their? Who's going to give their for that? Or a quitter?

Jay Dyer (19:48)

Again, it's complex where you have something like the total ownership of something like a water supply, right? Yeah. So when you have people that need that, that's different than a situation where Nestle is trying to buy an entire country's like private water supply.

Tim Pool (20:02)

So again, the issue was company towns. I have 100 acres. I own the body of water on that land. I invite a bunch of people to work. They say I'll work here. I need a place to stay. I say, I'll build you a house. They say, where do I get food? I'll build a store. And they say, we need water. I say, I'll set up a water pump for you. That's communism.

Jay Dyer (20:17)

Well, let's, let's go to the rights then, because you're arguing that this, you have this right as a, as a company owner and I would agree. But on what basis do you have those rights? Because classical liberalism lost this whole argument when it came.

Tim Pool (20:28)

I don't know why you're bringing up classical liberalism. It's not.

Jay Dyer (20:30)

That's your position.

Tim Pool (20:32)

No, it isn't yours.

Jay Dyer (20:33)

You're not aware of that, but it is your position.

Tim Pool (20:35)

No, you're throwing a blanket to encompass one point and combine it with a bunch of other points.

Jay Dyer (20:39)

Because your arguments come out of that ethos whether you know it or not. They're classical liberal and you can have

Tim Pool (20:44)

varying ideologies mix and match. Let's make an argument what I actually

Jay Dyer (20:47)

basis for the rights, the basis for

Tim Pool (20:49)

the right to own private property.

Jay Dyer (20:52)

Well, now we're ethos.

Tim Pool (20:54)

So I argue that the rights of man are derived from the will or the duties God bestows upon man.

Rattlesnake TV Host (21:00)

Big mistake this is. You do not want to make this argument to Jay Dyer. If your name is Tim Pool. If your name is Tim Pool and if you are like a libertarian, maybe center right guy, like center center right sort of guy. I guess you don't want to make this argument. Well, I argue that rights are bestowed upon man by God, then. Well, then you're appealing to universals. Then you're saying that it's universally true and that God and you have like you Would have to have like a grounding epistemology for that claim. Right. What is God? How do you know that? Right. How is that logically coherent? Jay has that, Tim doesn't have that. And we're going to see that play

Tim Pool (21:39)

out the requirements that we have on from God, which is be fruitful and multiply requires.

Rattlesnake TV Host (21:44)

That's a Christian doctrine. The idea of being fruitful and multiplying Christian doctrine comes from obviously the book of Genesis or yeah, comes from the

Tim Pool (21:53)

Old Testament, sorry, handful of things for which we recognize in the United States that we allow other people to do fully recognizing that other groups have different ideas of what rights are. So I would argue rights are. We need to be able to communicate, we need to protect ourselves and we'd be able to, we need to be secure in our possessions. These are principal rights that we struggle to survive without. As the basis of this is, is look at communism in general in the Soviet Union and when you don't have property rights, congratulations, look what happens when you have mass monopolization and oligopoly. You get something similar. So in a simple sense, certainly it is my moral worldview and faith based structures that define what I think someone has an inherent claim to. Progressives think you have an inherent claim to someone else's labor which would just, I would describe as slavery. So when it comes to the idea of private land ownership, the argument is fully understanding population expansion can come to a point where some people will never own land. But the idea is I need to be secure in my possessions to know and prepare for harsh winters, for instability so that I can survive, so that I can be fruitful and that I can multiply.

Jay Dyer (23:03)

So you appealed to Genesis and God. What God? What, what? What principles of Genesis tell you that?

Tim Pool (23:08)

What are you talking about? I'm not a Christian.

Jay Dyer (23:11)

Then how are you going to base this argument for rights in God? What do you mean what God?

Tim Pool (23:17)

My God, my moral worldview.

Rattlesnake TV Host (23:19)

So my God, okay, so this is a new age worldview is what Tim has got. And this is as incoherent as any new age worldview by the way. So his worldview is essentially, well, my God, I don't believe in the Christian God. I don't believe in any particular God. I think that everyone gets it wrong. So Tim Pool's interpretation of God is what he's going to appeal to here. That is beaten cheeks for 20 said you guys wish I was Indian. This is absurd. I blame the 19th for letting Blaine have they them energy. That's so true. Thanks. Beaten Cheeks Appreciate that bro. But anyways, Temple is appealing to Magod here, my God, his interpretation of God. So he's saying he's not a Christian, but he's appealing to Christian theology. He's appealing to the Old Testament Genesis, be fruitful and multiply. So if he's appealing to that and he's saying, well you know, this is where I get this idea of rights from and people need to be fruitful and multiply, why would you discard the rest of it? Because if you're saying that that is the reason and that is how you ground your understanding of rights and it comes from that God, then why would you discount the other things that that God says? Why would you discount the other aspects of orthodox Christian theology, for example? Then it becomes basically a get out of jail free card. Because people like Tim, for example, who are on the libertarian side of things, or liberals, for example, they know that when they are asked about any sort of presuppositions that they have, their worldview tends to crumble. So he's trying to use this, well, I ground it in God. Well you can't really ground it in God, unfortunately, because that makes it logically incoherent. You become a relativist anyways.

Jay Dyer (24:54)

It's not a universal principle, it's just subjective.

Tim Pool (24:57)

Well, I think to a lot of people they have a moral worldview and a philosophical understanding of some things and not others. And I base mine largely on. First, I would, I would argue that perhaps there are greater moral philosophies than the Christian moral structures. We just don't know them yet.

Rattlesnake TV Host (25:11)

I would say his an appeal to we don't know them yet. That's another bad one. Like this is what scientists are always doing. This is what the atheist secularists are doing. Yeah, well you know there's a way better explanation out there than God created mankind, but we just don't know it yet. And we'll figure it out. We're sciencing so hard that we're going to figure it out one day and there's an explanation for consciousness. We just don't know it yet. Trust me bro, there's a scientific atheist explanation for consciousness, but we just don't know it yet. But we're sciencing hard as right now me and the boys are science so hard right now that we're going to find it.

Tim Pool (25:42)

Historically based upon what we have seen throughout the world and what we think we know, the Christian war worldview has been dramatically superior.

Rattlesnake TV Host (25:49)

The absolute nerve and absolute unabashed chutzpah from Chase Haggard to not reply to my WhatsApp messages, to not reply to my invitation to come on stream and to review this with me right now and to be in the comments. Just just like a freaking mgtow man going his own way from rattlesnake TV man going his own way from my WhatsApp messages and from my invitations on the stream. It's all utilitarian attempts to just at justification from Tim. Yeah anyways Chase. Anyways Chase just doesn't want to come on stream with me.

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Rattlesnake TV Host (27:21)

Doesn't want to review this with me and thinks he can just still comment. Thinks he can just still come in here and comment.

Tim Pool (27:26)

It's just migtown to other moral structures. That being said, I'm not a Christian and I don't believe in the faith structures they have. However, I have recognized that the moral structures of a Christian society tend to make life more successful for individuals, which is ultimately beneficial to the standard function of life, which is organizing complex organizing free energy into complex systems.

Jay Dyer (27:51)

So just utilitarianism. So because it works well that literally

Rattlesnake TV Host (27:55)

exactly what he said was just utilitarianism. He's saying this is what I believe because it works. And then he's just denying the claim. But that is what he's saying there. Let's, let's listen to it again.

Jay Dyer (28:08)

What's your subjective well, I think to

Tim Pool (28:10)

a lot of people they have a moral worldview and a philosophical understanding of some things and not others. And I base mine largely on. First, I would. I would argue that perhaps there are greater moral philosophies than the Christian moral structures. We just don't know them yet. I would say historically, based upon what we have seen throughout the world and what we think we know, the Christian moral worldview has been dramatically superior to other moral structures. That being said, I am not a Christian and I don't believe in the faith structures they have. However, I have recognized that the moral structures of a Christian society tend to make life more successful for individuals.

Rattlesnake TV Host (28:48)

So that is literally a utilitarian worldview. He's saying that he doesn't believe that Christianity is true. He's saying that he doesn't think that, like, the actual faith itself of Christianity is literally true. But. And he's saying that, you know, I think we're going to find one that's way better, you know, if we keep going. Because me and the boys were philosophying hard as right now. Like me and the boys are philosophying out right now, right? We're just philosophying all day and all night until the cows come home. And we're going to find one that's way better. We just haven't found it yet. So. But I don't think that that's true. But, you know, it's got some decent philosophy. So if we use that, then I guess, like, it's the best thing that we've come up with so far that's utilitarian. He's using it because the utility of it is such that it's the best that they found. Yeah, it doesn't get much more utilitarian

Tim Pool (29:43)

than that, really, which is ultimately beneficial.

Rattlesnake TV Host (29:45)

This is actually the argument as well. That. And this is why I like to argue the debate of what's better for society. Christianity versus secular humanism. It's a fun debate to have with these secular humanists because essentially I can come at it from the utilitarian point of view. I can just grant God not real, though. That's what makes it fun. I can grant God not real, though. And I can just say, okay, cool, let's see what's better for society from a purely utilitarian point of view to

Tim Pool (30:11)

the standard function of life, which is organizing complex. Organizing free energy into complex systems.

Jay Dyer (30:17)

So just utilitarianism. So because it works well, that was utilitarian, you're wrong. That's utilitarianism. No argue that it works well, Jay,

Tim Pool (30:25)

if you don't have an argument for what I said, stop trying to blanket it with something else. As a straw man, the argument.

Rattlesnake TV Host (30:30)

It's couldn't be further from a straw man because Jay just encompassed what he said. It's like, okay, well, yeah, that's you. What you said was that Christianity works really well and the moral system tends to work really well. That's why I use it. That is, you are using Christianity as a utility. The utility is Christianity. The utility works. Utilitarianism. Jay points that out and all of a sudden he's straw manning.

Jay Dyer (30:52)

It was utilitarianism. I'm, you know, it's literally not.

Tim Pool (30:56)

I did. We can talk about.

Jay Dyer (30:57)

Why is it not utilitarian?

Tim Pool (30:58)

Well, we can talk about deontological ethos. We can talk about.

Jay Dyer (31:01)

Nothing to do with this.

Tim Pool (31:02)

No, indeed. My point is enlightenment. Instead of arguing what I said, you're going, you're arguing thing.

Rattlesnake TV Host (31:08)

I'm like, well, now Tim's doing the. Well, we could talk about deontological ethics. Well, I mean, you could. If you wanted to. If that. If you wanted to have a different conversation, you could certainly talk about deontological ethics. And we get it. Okay. You understand the different branches of ethics. That's good. You know, deontological and utilitarian virtue ethics, these sorts of things. That's good. But you have, you don't realize that you've. That you've just laid out a utilitarian framework and now, now he's getting mad about it.

Tim Pool (31:34)

I, I gave you a specific outline.

Jay Dyer (31:35)

I'm giving you the problem with utilitarianism. I'm sorry that you're not aware with. Of the problems with that.

Tim Pool (31:39)

I'm sorry that you can't actually address what I told you.

Jay Dyer (31:42)

I'm addressing it now, which is you're not. Utilitarian arguments are pragmatic and it's not a justification.

Tim Pool (31:46)

I'm not a utilitarian.

Jay Dyer (31:48)

But you made a utilitarian argument a

Tim Pool (31:50)

component of some, perhaps so. I don't believe in utilitarianism because that would sacrifice individuals.

Rattlesnake TV Host (31:56)

All right, Chase. Coming on stream, guys. That'll be good. This will be. This will be excellent, Chase. One of the best Phil Bros that I know. So we'll get a really, really solid perspective here. I've sent you the link. Chase says link expired. No, surely not. Surely not. Let me have a look again. Keep playing this right again.

Tim Pool (32:18)

Do you know what deontological moral ethos is?

Jay Dyer (32:20)

Yeah, it's.

Tim Pool (32:20)

Okay, great. So when you say something like. And then I bring up. We do not. We do not take immoral actions against an individual for the betterment of the. Of. Of. I know.

Jay Dyer (32:31)

So why are you bringing up Kant?

Tim Pool (32:33)

You are making an argument the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, which I did not say.

Jay Dyer (32:39)

You can have different types of utilitarianism.

Rattlesnake TV Host (32:42)

Sure.

Jay Dyer (32:42)

Have to have that.

Tim Pool (32:43)

Instead of arguing the point, you argued a pragmatic point. Argue. Argue the point I made. Stop trying to blanket into other.

Jay Dyer (32:50)

Does pragmatism justify the rights? That's what you argued.

Tim Pool (32:54)

Okay, I made an argument about private land ownership as a benefit to human survival.

Jay Dyer (32:59)

Right, Pragmatic.

Tim Pool (33:00)

Okay, so address what I said.

Jay Dyer (33:02)

How does appealing.

Tim Pool (33:03)

I made a point, you make yours. Addressing what I said.

Jay Dyer (33:06)

Yeah. That's not a justification. It's a bad argument.

Tim Pool (33:08)

Explain why.

Rattlesnake TV Host (33:10)

All right, give me one sec. Guys, I'm just teching right now. I'm just teching right now. Lounge guest, screen share. Guys, if I get this right first time, then I'm a freaking genius. Boom. Chase, can you hear me? Did we lose Chase? I think we lost Chase. Well, I think he's going to call back. Here we go. Chase, can you hear me?

Chase Haggard (33:30)

I can, yes.

Rattlesnake TV Host (33:31)

Is there any echo?

Chase Haggard (33:33)

No, there's not. Can we. Can we turn my camera off though? I look crazy. I've been working all day on mixes and I want to show my face.

Rattlesnake TV Host (33:39)

Can you just like, put it down? Because we had the same problem yesterday. I couldn't do it. Can you just like, put it. Yeah, that'd be good. Yes. Can you. Can you hear me? All right.

Chase Haggard (33:49)

To subject people to the. To my face. Yes, I can.

Rattlesnake TV Host (33:53)

All right, tell me.

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Rattlesnake TV Host (34:55)

First of all, what have you seen initially from the debate? Tim comes in and he basically says, okay, so he basically grounds rights in God and then he refers to Genesis. Be, go be fruitful and multiply. So he's referring to like the Old Testament scripture. And then he's saying, well, I don't think that that's true necessarily, but it tends to work pretty well. And there's a better moral system out there. But we haven't realized it yet. But we're philosophying hard as so we're going to realize it. And then Jay says he's a utilitarian. Tim says, no, I'm not a utilitarian. Stop trying to straw man me. It doesn't seem like a straw man to me. What are you getting from it?

Chase Haggard (35:33)

No, not. I agree. I don't think it's a straw man at all. And the, the core question Jay's asking is very simple, is just, okay, how are you justifying this outside of, you know, it works because I could say me being like a Morton Joe from Mad Max and just having this horrible breeding farm. It'll work. It's effective. So how is that going to not fall under the same justification as you? So I agree. And I don't think I like Tim. I've always enjoyed Tim. I think he's a great bellwether for kind of like the middle of the road Americans. I'm not talking about intelligence, just politically. But he was very out of his depth here and I was watching it and was just kind of shocked like,

Rattlesnake TV Host (36:15)

dude, just let it go.

Chase Haggard (36:17)

It's not a big deal. Yeah, about company towns and it got. It got all the way down here.

Rattlesnake TV Host (36:22)

Yeah, yeah. All right, let's keep going with it

Jay Dyer (36:24)

because appealing to things that work or pragmatism isn't a justification.

Tim Pool (36:28)

It doesn't why I'm wrong about the requirement of private land ownership for survival.

Jay Dyer (36:33)

You grounded the right in utilitarianism and pragmatism. And I'm saying that's not a good justification. It's a bad argument.

Tim Pool (36:39)

So explain.

Jay Dyer (36:40)

Anything that works could be all over the place. That could be subjective. Indeed.

Tim Pool (36:45)

That was my point in which I said there are probably moral structures that work better we have not discovered yet.

Jay Dyer (36:52)

Then it's not a justification. So you don't know. So if it's a future thing that you haven't figured out yet, then you don't know right now that it would be a justification.

Tim Pool (36:59)

I understand certain principles of gravity and the speed at which things fall, but we don't know for sure how the structures work.

Jay Dyer (37:05)

And it wouldn't.

Tim Pool (37:06)

We operate based on probabilities, but it would.

Jay Dyer (37:09)

Then that would not work to justify the rights as grounded in an unknown.

Tim Pool (37:13)

Then go jump off a building and see how it works for you.

Jay Dyer (37:15)

You told me I have to, so

Rattlesnake TV Host (37:16)

I have to go. So gravity and rights, the same thing.

Chase Haggard (37:19)

Yeah, exactly. And again, notice. So the conversation. I don't think Tim intentionally did this, but it shifted from justification. Right. Good reasons to believe something which can be tough defining in and of itself, but good reasons to believe in something. It shifts from that again back to just pragmatism. Well, it works while societies thrive. Well again, you know, Morton Joe's society was thriving and he had plenty of women. Everyone out in the desert was totally surviving. Lord Farquaad had a great kingdom. What's. What's to say it's wrong with it, but it shifts from truth to just what's going to lead to better societies. And Jay keeps trying to bring it back to, well, no, that's not a grounding. And then it just goes in circles constantly.

Rattlesnake TV Host (38:06)

Yeah, it is. I do find it interesting and funny though, the part where Jay starts to call him out and all the fallacies. Because once Tim. Do you agree that like, once Tim sort of starts to talk about universals and once he starts to say that he grounds things in God, basically he's just walked into a room of just mousetraps everywhere. And everywhere he steps is a mousetrap. Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy, fallacy. After that.

Chase Haggard (38:28)

Absolutely, absolutely. And even Jay was really patient throughout all of this because he didn't even push the question of, well, what even is the standard of society working because we can have functioning, horrifying societies. You know, you can be like Lord, Lord Saruman with all the orcs. You can have a functioning society that way. He didn't even do that. And Tim is just completely out of his depth here and yeah, just kept asserting, asserting.

Tim Pool (38:57)

It works better.

Rattlesnake TV Host (38:58)

It works better.

Chase Haggard (38:59)

Go jump off a building, see how that works. Well, that if I die, that doesn't mean that my system is less true. That's not the question.

Rattlesnake TV Host (39:10)

Yeah, all right, let's carry on.

Tim Pool (39:11)

Jump off a building and see how it works. Because you don't know gravity. It's a future thing you haven't figured out yet we operate on probabilities based on what we think we know because we actually don't know.

Jay Dyer (39:19)

But that doesn't grant a right. That's the point. In future probabilities, I asked you for the grounding for the right to private property.

Tim Pool (39:26)

So far human history has proven private land ownership is beneficial to human existence.

Jay Dyer (39:31)

That's a circular argument. Benefit. I'm asking how you know that it benefits it. What does it mean to benefit? And you're saying because it was good,

Tim Pool (39:37)

it makes more of it.

Jay Dyer (39:38)

That's a circular argument.

Rattlesnake TV Host (39:39)

One of the chatters just made a good point and said an aggressive metastasized cancer is a moral good because it's thriving then.

Chase Haggard (39:46)

Exactly.

Rattlesnake TV Host (39:47)

Yeah, it's growing.

Chase Haggard (39:48)

Yes.

Jay Dyer (39:49)

Well, why? Maybe making more of it's bad.

Tim Pool (39:51)

It's certainly not.

Jay Dyer (39:52)

Okay, but why not? That's the point. That's why it's a circle.

Tim Pool (39:55)

Well, let's go back to the origin of what we think we know again. Because everything, we think everything is rooted in what we think we know. Right?

Chase Haggard (40:03)

Some people, it's just scientism. This whole, this whole next like 10 minutes is just.

Rattlesnake TV Host (40:09)

I saw this dude, he did the same thing to Andrew. Have you ever seen that debate I think they're going to release? It was also about weekend. Yeah, no, but this, I think it was a different debate. It was on God and it was on Tim Pool's like Paywall show. And then Rach sent it to us.

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Rattlesnake TV Host (40:25)

Yeah. And it was actually. And Tim did this exact same thing where he did this whole five minute story and it went into like squirrels and, and about, you know, entropy and, and all this sort of stuff. But it actually doesn't make an argument. It's just basically a bunch of. Look at the stuff. I know.

Chase Haggard (40:41)

But anyways, exactly everyone, Father Ananias, who runs the Patristic Faith channel, Father Deacon, Dr. Ananias always says, well, look, you know, that's an interesting story. And in philosophy, what we are all telling each other is stories. Now some of those stories can be true, some of those stories can be false. But that's why we ask the questions. How do you know that? And does your system make knowing that possible? It's. It's not. Those questions are deep, but they're not. They're pretty basic, right? It's like, it's like you coming to me and saying, chase, I know that I'm worse at FIFA than you. And I say, well, how do you know that? And you go, well, because we played constantly. And I just kept losing I said, okay, that's a good justification, right? That's a good reason to believe the story. But Tim just says this whole long story and all it's going to come down to is, well, you grant me one premise that the big bang happened and then I can build the rest of the system. We'll just say, well no, we're not going to grant that. Why would I grant that?

Rattlesnake TV Host (41:43)

Yeah, I'm gonna let the FIFA comment go because I think that like the results speak to it big themselves. And I'm not, I'm not insecure like that. Like I'm pretty secure in my favorite fee for in abilities.

Chase Haggard (41:52)

But for sure you don't even need to bring it up. It doesn't even need to be said

Rattlesnake TV Host (41:56)

and trivia as well. So yeah, maybe I should take you on soon because I want to take Rachel on soon, but maybe you should come on and I'll lose. Okay, good. Good to know.

Tim Pool (42:05)

All right, let's, let's story probably wrong, but honestly I, I've not done the experiment experiments myself to a great degree. I've just been in a plane. So if we go back to again, the roots of science, we can take a look at a few things. Free energy tends to, to coalesce into complex systems, starting with the baser elements or we can say quirks, I'm sorry, quarks into particles, into atoms, into elements, into compounds. At some point for some reason you get gravity, likely because if you're familiar with our current understanding of gravity, mass creates attraction, etc. And this, this results in certain masses coming together. Eventually you'll get something like a gas giant. You'll get something that compresses, then ignites fusion and you get a sun, we get all this stuff. Then you get an Earth. Earth is the result of certain things slamming together, creating a bunch of complex elements through process of fusion, etc.

Rattlesnake TV Host (42:56)

And then it's like Tim like watched and memorized the Cliff Notes of the history of the universe in two hours. Yeah, you know those documentaries?

Chase Haggard (43:07)

Well, to me, basically, basically what I hear was we used to live in peace until the Fire Nation attacked and then the Avatar went missing.

Rattlesnake TV Host (43:18)

Exactly.

Tim Pool (43:19)

At some point on Earth, for some reason, again, we don't really know for sure, these molecules and compounds start forming self replicating proteins. The the again, in modern science, the one thing we recognize is that there is greater entropy and limited entropy. Negative entropy can only exist in a slightly greater entropic system. But we do see free energy organizing in a complex systems throughout the earth and in the universe. That's what we monitor. Eventually, these complex systems ultimately become multi. They become cellular organisms, single cells and multicellular organisms by which they then create complex organism systems. They create ecosystems. Now you've got a squirrel planting a nut, growing a tree, the tree then drops the food for the squirrel. And I've got two distinct life forms that form a. A complex system within its own free energy. And then we get to the craziest part with humanity in the creation of abstract complex systems. That is, humans give names to things that don't exist anywhere in reality except in the. And the energy transference between the mind and the vibrations between their mouths. So what we then see is the function of life is negative entropy within a larger entropic system. If we as life, which are driven to reproduce and are. And we typically associate all of those things with being good and enjoyable, like having kids, having Christmas morning, then we track, based on what we have seen throughout the earth, what is the most beneficial to that. There are a few answers for this. Islam could be one of them. They've certainly been massively successful, have lots of kids. We can take a look at Africa and say, certainly that is beneficial. However, I would make the argument.

Rattlesnake TV Host (44:49)

Notice how he couldn't say how Africa is beneficial again.

Chase Haggard (44:53)

Yeah, right. Well, it's just lots of kids. Again, notice it's, it's this, this whole story, that thing growing. Yeah, exactly. And all types of metaphysics. Well, there's multiple different things that have their own identity over time that persist and then they interact in a cohesive system and they obey these things called laws that suddenly can exist without someone intending them and then jumps to Islam. Could be true because they have a lot of kids. Yeah, total not. It's a total non sequitur. And again, all of it is just. He spends all his time in politics, which doesn't make someone dumb or anything, but it's like if you don't know this stuff, you shouldn't try to like, speak about it yet, you know, and maybe ask some questions.

Rattlesnake TV Host (45:35)

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a good point.

Chase Haggard (45:38)

Yeah, he's a smart guy. I like him a lot.

Rattlesnake TV Host (45:40)

Yeah, yeah, he, he is a smart guy. But there's a certain, there's a certain level of knowledge that you can't. You like, common sense can't really get you over the line. A lot of the times in these sorts of conversations you have to really have questioned your. And like, I'm, I'm definitely no expert. Like, I was picking your brains a lot about this when we were In When I was in Texas in December. But yeah, you have to be able to sort of like dig into the layers of how you know what you know and why you believe what you believe and then be able to challenge that. Once you. Once you can challenge your beliefs on your own, then you're doing. Doing all right.

Chase Haggard (46:12)

Yep. And seeing the cost of your beliefs.

Rattlesnake TV Host (46:15)

In what sense?

Chase Haggard (46:16)

Seeing the cost of your lease. In the sense that we all operate within a box, so to say, whatever your worldview is. If somebody says, I don't have a worldview, well, you're still going to have a world, A worldview. No matter what you say. You're going to have things that condition the parameters of what you believe is possible, what you are, what you should do, shouldn't do, and realize that everything that you commit to as any type of philosophy, there's things that are now excluded. Right. I'm. I'm an orthodox Christian. I don't believe evil has existence in a sense. Right. There's a cost to that where it's like, no, there's repercussions to be consistent with that. I believe it's true, obviously, but there's a cost to it. There's repercussions. That's it.

Rattlesnake TV Host (47:04)

Principal Skinner. Principal Skinner sent 10, thank you very much. And David Moore sent 20 and said Tim needs real time and pain, patience. Walking him through the details of what he does not understand is going to be slog. He feels the pressure to appear the smartest person in the room and it shows. He will get there, I hope. Well, yeah, I think that Chase made a good point before. He'll like. He'd do well to ask questions, you know, and just sort of understand that. And then he might be able to piece things together and there might be a few parts of the worldview that might have to die, but that's fine. That happens to all of us, I guess. Yeah.

Chase Haggard (47:35)

He's got the raw computing power. He's not a dumb dude. Tim's a smart guy.

Rattlesnake TV Host (47:39)

Yeah. Yeah. Guys, if you have any questions or anything about this or any statements, just send them in and we'll. We'll read them out, but we'll continue here.

Tim Pool (47:46)

European cultures that developed science, space travel, cures for diseases and then effectively colonized the whole planet, as well as the Asian cultures have proven greatly that these moral worldviews lend themselves greater to the ectopic system within the entropy. And then we would say, well, well, it's maybe a toss up, but I do think that the American Judeo Christian or Just Christian moral values, which include things like private property, have lended itself to the formation of complex systems, that is Life, expansion and all the things that we cherish in the world. And thus those are the things we aim for. Certainly these things are very subjective and some people believe other things. Some people might think it's better to watch the whole world burn because humans are a virus that spread like a plague. I don't believe that. But I do recognize I can't convince other people, nor do I know everything. So in the end, I ultimately conclude if we want people to have families and have kids, private land ownership is probably the best thing we can do.

Jay Dyer (48:45)

That's a good story, but it doesn't get to grounding or justification for why the right is actually something that is grounded in God. So storytelling is one thing.

Tim Pool (48:54)

Yeah, right. It's grounded in God because God commands us to be fruitful and multiply and the. The.

Jay Dyer (48:59)

But you don't accept that revelation. So it's just.

Tim Pool (49:02)

I do.

Jay Dyer (49:03)

Well, you said you're not.

Rattlesnake TV Host (49:04)

You're back and on camera. It's good to see you.

Chase Haggard (49:06)

Yeah, it's all good.

Rattlesnake TV Host (49:08)

Oh, okay. Sweet, sweet. Yeah. So they just said. Jay's just said the part about the story. So it's nice, but it's like it's a good story and everything. But it doesn't actually give you grounding for the right in God because if he's talking about Christianity from a totally utilitarian point of view here and how you know it's best for the entropy and stuff then and it's best for the complex processes and we'll probably find something that's better. Maybe Islam's better because they have a lot of kids and everything. Then you actually it's the logical leap of then trying to justify some sort of a transcendental category in the Christian God when you've just said that that isn't a real thing is quite something. If you enjoyed that clip, then don't forget to like and subscribe. And if you'd like to see another one, click right here.

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