A (2:34)

Freewheel it, which doesn't work all the time. Sometimes that's great, but doesn't work all the time. And so we do need anxiety to help us stay focused and prepare. But on the other end of the spectrum, it gets out of control and can kind of take over us and I think sometimes we, to what you were just saying, like we want to control our external environment so that we don't feel anxious. Right. I need a safe space because I feel anxious. Well, that's not realistic. Right. We have to learn how to manage that emotion without controlling all of the external factors. So that was a long answer to your question.

B (3:12)

I think it's really helpful to think about it as related to future and related to what's unseen.

A (3:20)

Yes.

B (3:21)

And it's not all bad.

A (3:23)

Right.

B (3:23)

Because.

A (3:24)

Right.

B (3:24)

It for some reason it made me think about the nerves in our body, you know, that pain receptors.

A (3:30)

Yeah.

B (3:31)

And if I only going back to fear, if I only was afraid when things were right in front of me.

A (3:37)

Yeah.

B (3:38)

There's certain things I'd be too late for.

A (3:40)

Right? Absolutely.

B (3:41)

And so there is an element of anticipation and preparation that can be beneficial.

A (3:47)

Sure.

B (3:47)

You know, and you could talk about this with a lot. Probably. But your brain is a pattern recognition machine.

A (3:57)

Right? Absolutely. Makes meaning everywhere. Right.

B (3:59)

And so a certain experience is coded as a pattern. And if I'm about to enter into another experience that feels similar, then my brain will start to say, okay, yes, I'm going to predict where I think this might go.

A (4:14)

Yes.

B (4:15)

And again that's, that's supposed to be beneficial. It's the same reason why if you burn your hand or slam your finger in the door or whatever your brain says, okay, here's a pattern. When you're going out the door, don't leave your hand there.

A (4:26)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what learning is about.

B (4:29)

Exactly. So why is it that like if you, if you asked me this question outside of the context of anxiety, do you think that people today are more imaginative than ever? I would probably say no.

B (4:45)

And yet it's pretty clear that we're living in a very anxious time and it seems that every subsequent generation is more anxious. So what do you think that comes from? Is it that I'm going to ask the question but then also make a speculation? I guess. Is it that we live, we're making too many predictions or we live in a, a non reality world, a simulated reality through digital spaces and social media.

A (5:16)

Yeah.

B (5:16)

Does that. I'm sure social media is a huge part of it, but it is interesting to me because if you think about predictive, future oriented and the brains wiring around my past experiences, I don't know why anxiety would be on the rise just with those. Because people, it isn't that people have had a bunch of experiences that are now telling them to be more anxious or it Isn't that their imagination is now evolved to a point where I can imagine more outcomes.

A (5:46)

Right.

B (5:46)

You know what I mean? So what are the factors that contribute.

A (5:49)

Yeah, I think you brought up a couple important points in your question. And I think one is we do have way more information in front of us than we've ever had before. And so, you know, I mean, you and I growing up without, I mean, I know I'm a little older than you, but we didn't have this supercomputer in our pockets all the time where we were in a constant influx of information visually. Also, like I don't even go on a walk without listening to a podcast. So we're in this constant influx of information. And so to your point, maybe our imagination isn't as developed because all of our worst fears and anxieties are being presented to us constantly. And so I mean, and you see that in the extremeness of, I mean, I don't know what's on your algorithm, but my algorithm of what my social media shows me and what is shown to my 18 year old son are very, very different. But boy, they know what we're interested in, what we're worried about, what we think about. And so to the other point you made, are we like living in this non reality, this matrix or something? Right. In some ways we are because our eyes, our brain is so focused on what is on the screen, which we know is not real, it's not tangible, you can't touch it. It's a snapshot of someone's life or someone's story. You never get the full picture. And so we are kind of living outside of what's right in front of us. A lot of times, you know, I grew up playing outside and being very present. We didn't even have a computer in my house till I was probably, I don't know, 13, 14, an Apple IIC.

B (7:45)

Oh yeah.

A (7:46)

And even then, I mean I had like read a Rabbit or something which was very basic.

B (7:51)

Don't bend the floppy disk.

A (7:53)

Don't bend the floppy disk. They were actually floppy back then.

B (7:55)

Oh yeah, right. Yeah.

A (7:57)

And then, and then they were hard disks and we called them floppy disks. It was very confusing.

B (8:02)

The best story is the person, younger person who saw an old computer disk and was like, wow, somebody 3D printed the save icon from the.

A (8:12)

No. Oh no. It's tragic.

B (8:16)

Wow. Actually the save icon exists because it used to go onto these things.

A (8:21)

Right?

B (8:21)

Like little flat.

A (8:22)

Yeah, pretty sure I still have some of those around. I don't know what to do.

B (8:26)

With them, they would be worth money because. Wow, that. Wouldn't that be cool?

A (8:30)

Yeah, I should send them to a museum.

B (8:33)

So as you were talking, I thought about almost the reverse of a point that I was making. And, and I think we've talked before about how your brain makes these, Your brain makes connections and then they become easier and easier for your brain to make.

A (8:48)

Right.

B (8:49)

So that's like neural pathways maybe.

A (8:51)

Yep.

B (8:52)

Look at me. And so I guess if somebody experiences a fear based or anxious thought earlier and earlier on in life through information overload or, or something, then maybe that neural pathway gets trained earlier and earlier in people's lives to go to fear or to go to anxiety.

A (9:16)

Yeah, it can for sure. I mean, I think that the home that we grow up in and the temperature and the environment of the home is very important. Right. If you grow up in a home where there's a lot of conflict all the time, parents are fighting, things are escalating, there's yelling or if your environment is unsafe, either emotionally or physically. And I'm sure there's a lot of other factors. Those are the two that come to mind. You know, if your parent is an alcoholic, you know, struggling with dependency in some way, that produces a lot of anxiety because it's very unstable, it's very unpredictable. And so, yeah, that can happen. Your brain can become wired for anxiety. And then there are, you know, I see some cases in my office where it doesn't really make sense that somebody's a teenager or even an adult, you know, and they give me their history and it doesn't seem like there are obvious sources of anxiety, but somehow they have been wired, they've been experiencing it for a long period of time. And so that is a little. We don't understand the root cause of that as much. We do look at, I think we talked about in an earlier episode looking at other causes of mental conditions related to vitamin deficiencies and things like that. So some of those things, you know, can be present as well, but sometimes we just don't. We can't get to the root cause of it. But you know, to your point, yes, you know, our brain can be wired from an early age in that, in that anxious state, a lot of factors.

B (10:51)

Because we are psychosomatic beings.

A (10:53)

That's right.

B (10:54)

So there are physiological and psychological factors involved. Speaking of physical effects, your brain and body code anxiety the same way it would code fear. Right. And release certain chemicals that affect you over time. I'm thinking of some statistics that I have heard before about, you know, in in ages past, you know, they would talk about the effects of smoking.

A (11:23)

Right.

B (11:24)

And how it's harmful for your health or, or X number of cigarettes takes X number of days or years off of your life.

A (11:30)

Right.

B (11:31)

And other research has been done that shows too much stress or too much anxiety can also have similar effects. So talk a little bit about that. What are the negative effects that can come from out of control anxiety?

A (11:43)

Yeah, the one that comes to mind, and there are many. I'm not a scientist, but there's a lot of research on cortisol and the effects of cortisol and how it breaks down your body, it breaks down your immune system, can cause and maintain inflammation in your body. It can, you know, I think that there's a connection to like Alzheimer's and dementia and the building of those plaques that we see in those diseases. And so it does have. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn. Those are the things that are coming to mind from the research that I've done. But it is a problem. And I think, you know, even, I think about even early when I was young, in elementary school, our school counselor would come in and talk about stress management. So we've known for a long time that an overabundance of stress is not healthy. And that's, that's one of the things, you know, stress causes anxiety and, you know, so managing stress is so important to manage our mind and our emotional health. But yeah, there can be a lot of physical damage. I mean, the adrenal glands are really impacted by an overabundance of cortisol and so you can get adrenal fatigue. And so then your body's not getting rid of the things it needs to get rid of as much. And I would imagine that's going to connect to kidneys and liver and like can literally shut down your organs. And so it is, you know, it's a really important factor. And also it affects your metabolism and it affects your ability to regulate your weight and all of those sorts of things. So, yeah, it's pretty far reaching.

B (13:24)

Anxiety, I think, is different from stress in the fact that when you talk about cortisol, Cortisol can be measured through blood.

A (13:34)

Right.

B (13:34)

Like you can go to the doctor and they can tell you how much cortisol you have in your bloodstream.

A (13:39)

Right.

B (13:39)

So sometimes when we think about anxiety, it's like ethereal and it's, it's like it feels circumstantial and a state of mind and stress we can think about. It's the same way if we're not careful. But as we talked, we've talked about before, your gut, your body produces actual hormones that end up in your bloodstream and they're objectifiably measurable. And so it's not just, do I feel stressed? You know, because some people don't know that they are.

A (14:13)

Right.

B (14:14)

They're not recognizing, you know, but if you were to take a sample and you have a ton of cortisol in your. Your body, the damage can be just as real.

A (14:22)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

B (14:24)

And you've probably heard before that if you're not listening to the signs your body is telling you, then it will eventually ratchet up those signs until it gets your full attention.

A (14:33)

Yes.

B (14:33)

Right. It puts you on your back.

A (14:35)

Yes, it will. Yes, it will. Because we have a great capacity to live in denial too. You know, I'm fine. How are you? Fine, fine, fine. Everything's fine. Right. That's just, you know, that could be true, I suppose, but a lot of times it's denial and we just keep going and don't stop to listen to our body. We just keep pushing through. And so, you know, our body. Yes, our body will get our attention one way or another.

B (15:02)

Yeah. There's lots of ways that we. This is true of many things, but there's lots of ways that we're. That we try to mitigate, treat, medicate especially. And anxiety is one of them. So one of the reasons why we know anxiety is high today, higher today than it's ever been, is because of the number of prescriptions that are being requested or filled or whatever for anti anxiety medication.

A (15:28)

Right.

B (15:29)

So let's talk a little bit about that. Like what are, what are some unhealthy ways that people try to fix? Whether they recognize it's anxiety or not, they're trying to fix it with. With something that ends up not really helping or making it worse.

A (15:45)

Yeah. So substances obviously comes to mind. Drinking alcohol is a big one because it is a depressant. So it's going to kind of numb out those anxious feelings and quiet those thoughts. Other drugs that are depressants or hallucinogenics, same thing. I mean, we're in an age where medical cannabis is widely used and given, and I'm not really understanding fully why, because the research and the data doesn't support the use of cannabis for anxiety over the long term. It's a very temporary effect. But there's also a lot of evidence to show that for a lot of people, it actually makes anxiety worse over the long haul. And you do need more. More and more to achieve the same effect. So we want to believe. And this is not going to. This is probably not a popular opinion. Right. Because our culture is like, yes, cannabis is the miracle drug. And unfortunately, the data just doesn't support that. And we see a lot of people have increased anxiety or other issues that come along because of the use of it. Memory, cognition issues.

B (17:06)

Can it contribute to developing schizophrenia?

A (17:10)

Yes, there's a lot of evidence now, especially in adolescents, which the adolescent period is onset of puberty through almost 25 years old, maybe even farther. And there is this onset of schizophrenia from cannabis use and other drugs as well. But we're seeing specifically with cannabis use. And so that's really. That's really kind of a scary statistic there.

A (17:38)

And I have talked to many of my own clients about kind of the dangers of that, and I'm not an expert on this area. But the things I also worry about are with the medical cannabis, some of it is synthetic, which poses all kinds of other problems. I wonder about the intensity of it and the, you know, if you do some research.

B (18:03)

Potency. If you do some research.

A (18:04)

Yeah, potency. There's.

B (18:06)

That's probably the biggest concern that I have seen experts say about it, is that it's so.

A (18:12)

It's.

B (18:13)

It's. There's so much variation.

A (18:15)

Yeah.

B (18:15)

In the different. Even if it's naturally derived and then you have the synthetic. There's so much variation in the compounds that are involved and the potency of it. And it hasn't really been studied for that long. It's been around a long time, but it hasn't been studied as long as many. Many other substances that are. That are much more controlled and more consistent. I mean, even something like caffeine or alcohol, like, it's been. It's been so studied and it's. Yeah, it's much simpler and it's understood by scientists, but that. How. How it affects you. So it's just. There's a lot of unknowns.

A (18:47)

Yeah, for sure. And you're seeing people that. I mean, it's a hallucinogenic, so you're seeing people with the onset of psychosis or derealization, depersonalization, which is a sense that you're like, separate from your body or you. That nothing's real. I mean, and those are symptoms of schizophrenia. And so seeing some of those things happen. And, you know, I'm not saying that cannabis use isn't useful for, you know, other issues. I'm not saying it's, you know, awful, but I do Think it's being overused for anxiety in particular and even with children. And that scares me the most because the brain isn't fully developed yet. So now we're tinkering with the brain and okay, so then people say, well, but what about the pharmaceuticals? So you're saying cannabis is bad, but give them pharmaceuticals? And I'm not really saying that either. I think we should be very cautious about what we give our children, especially that's going to break the blood brain barrier and going to impact the development of their brain. And we just don't have all of the data. We do have some data on certain drugs, SSRIs. You know, I don't think that we should be quick to.

A (20:04)

Diagnose and to prescribe those things, but they are definitely more, you know, controlled at this point. And so it's a lot to think about, especially as a parent. But I do think we ought to be cautious. But I think people with anxiety also, it's not just substances. You know, it could be experiences or it could be, you know, people manage their anxiety by, like, not going out of the house or isolating themselves. Things like that.

B (20:31)

I was going to say that. I mean, because we spent a few minutes talking about actual substance inputs, you know, whether it's drugs or legal drugs or illegal drugs or this whole spectrum. But there are also the things that can contribute to it that sometimes. For example, we talked about social media. We could probably talk more about it. Social media often is. I mean, not often. It's proven that it does contribute to anxiety. Right?

A (21:00)

Yeah.

B (21:00)

There's a correlation there in the. In the least that people who spend more time on social media are more anxious. And what's tricky about it is that I think anxiety makes you want. Want to unplug or unwind because you have things happening in your mind that you don't like and you're trying to control and. Or trying to escape, maybe. And so you can do that through drinking too much or something. But also you can say, well, I'm just gonna mindlessly scroll or I'm just gonna go get lost in some, you know, research topic online or some sort of movie binge, watch a show. And sometimes those things can actually make it worse.

A (21:44)

Right, Right.

B (21:45)

So it's like you're trying to. You're trying to cure your sickness with the thing that's ca It.

A (21:48)

Right?

B (21:49)

Right.

A (21:49)

Yes. If I just do more of this, I'll feel better.

B (21:53)

What is it about social media specifically that. That can make you anxious?

A (22:00)

There's a lot of factors A couple that come to mind are the comparison. The. It can prey on your fears, your worst fears. I mean, the more extreme the image or video or concept is, you know, your brain is going to pay more attention to it. Right. Because our brain is looking to keep us safe. And so it's trying to, you know, be informed of all the possibilities of every situation. Right. And so, you know, it can play into that kind of that. That term. Fear mongering.

B (22:36)

Yeah. If you watch a video about the safety features of a car or how how a dump truck hitting this particular model of a car affects the airbags or something like that, or the survival possibility of a person in this kind of a car accident, and you. And suddenly your social media recognizes that that's something that you're interested in seeing and starts playing all these things. Well, you're going to be driving. You're going to be driving around thinking like, God, I hope my car's not. Those unsafe cars are like, oh, no, there's a dump truck. You know, so your brain grabs a hold of it and. And make you more afraid, even though it. It doesn't change the reality of how dangerous or not dangerous driving is.

A (23:17)

Right.

B (23:17)

You know?

A (23:18)

Yeah, totally.

B (23:19)

It puts it more in your consciousness.

A (23:21)

Yeah. Hey, do you remember that? I don't know if it was a video or something, like years ago, Dumb Ways to Die. Like, do you remember the song in your head? No, I don't, but, oh my gosh, I remember there used to be books, Ways to Die.

B (23:35)

There used to be these. So many.

B (23:37)

I think, you know, so the novelty section of Barnes and Noble or something that used to have a book like the Worst. The Thousand Worst Ways to Die or something like that. And it was. It was based on real, real events, like this guy, like, you know, died because he got stuck in a briar bush or something. I don't know.

A (23:53)

Right, right.

B (23:54)

That's, yeah, stupid.

A (23:55)

But yeah, I think the other thing that social media does is that that concept of the. The slot machine, right, where you. You pull down and you refresh. Right. So that in itself, that in. In and of itself creates this expectancy or this anxiety of what we're going to see and what's going to come next and is it than what we just saw and it's gonna be new. I mean, remember the point where. The point in time where Instagram would tell you there's nothing new to see here? Right. And it doesn't do that anymore. There's always something new to see. And so I think that concept Is creating a lot of anxiety because it's like there's always something new to see. There's always something new to learn. I've gotta know this and I've gotta see this and I've gotta stay up to date and I mean, I don't know, my. Mine is always feeding me with. With shoes that I need in my life. So there's always another shoe to buy.

B (24:49)

Yeah, yeah, I remember that. You're all caught up. I used to say there's a book that I've heard referenced a bunch. What is it called? Jonathan Something is the author.

A (25:01)

Anxious Generation.

B (25:02)

Generation. Yeah, I just read it and it talks about the difference that the. Maybe, maybe not social media, but like the digital draw is different for men versus. Or girls versus boys. Right. I think you've mentioned this before, that comparison and.

B (25:23)

Shame creating.

A (25:24)

Yeah.

B (25:25)

Emotions are more likely in girls who are. Who are going to be on social media and boys are more likely to go towards fantasy through either.

A (25:34)

Right.

B (25:34)

Pornography or video games.

A (25:36)

Video games, yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think we're seeing a lot of boys kind of living in fantasy world and that being more comfortable for them and so.

B (25:48)

Which could be a masking anxiety about the real world. Right?

A (25:50)

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And hindering their experiences in the real world. Right. So we learn things by doing. We're experiential people. And so when you're not having real life experiences, but you're having them only virtually too much, like you kind of get. You get stuck in that. And so then we've got this sudden onset of social anxiety where I have to go out and I'm not talking to people through a microphone and in a game. I have to talk to them face to face and look them in the eye. And so we're seeing some interesting trends, interesting trends there. And of course, you know, the females, you know.

A (26:32)

The aesthetic aspect of that, they're very wired to. And comparing themselves to others that they see online and those sorts of things. Yeah, he talks a lot about that in that book. And that is a great book, I think for any parent of any parent, any age, really. Just in preparing to help your kids walk through the information age, the digital age, the phone age that they're living in, because we didn't grow up in that. And so we've had to engage in it differently than our kids who were sometimes getting phones at 7 or 8 years old with unlimited access and terrifying understanding what that's. You gotta understand what that's doing to their brain in the formation of their sense of Self and identity and beliefs about the world and their ability to engage in it and their anxieties and fears. Like we were worried about, am I going to, if I leave now on my bike, am I going to make it home before the, the streetlight turns out, otherwise I'm going to be in big trouble. Right. That was my anxiety. Now it's, well, what does Sally think about me? Or so. And so had a party and they didn't invite me. And you know, just very different. And some of those were true for us, too, but it wasn't so in our face. Right. We might not have heard about it till three weeks later that Sally had a party and didn't invite us. But it's real time on social media.

B (27:58)

You can find about it while it's happened. Find out about it while it's happening.

A (28:01)

While it's happening.

B (28:02)

Then you have FOMO on top of, you know.

A (28:05)

Right, right. Yeah.

B (28:07)

So since going back a little bit, since anxiety tends to be the catch all, and everybody will say, well, yeah, of course I get anxious, you know, and there's a sense in which everybody can relate.

A (28:18)

Yes.

B (28:19)

Everybody has felt some form of anxiety.

A (28:21)

Right.

B (28:21)

Where's the line between your average everyday anxious person and it's, it's really, you should seek some help or maybe you need.

A (28:31)

Yeah.

B (28:32)

Some kind of physician assistance or something like that.

A (28:36)

Yeah, for sure. I think that we all are going to feel a little anxious if we don't feel prepared. Well, some people don't care as much I do. So if I don't feel prepared, I'm going to feel a little more anxious. If we're doing something new, we might feel a little anxious. Right. If we're going into an interview. So that anxiety gets us focused and gets us prepared.

B (28:58)

And by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but like, if you, if you develop a complete aversion to any feeling of anxiety, if you go to the extreme, you'll never try anything new.

A (29:09)

Right.

B (29:10)

And so it kind of goes back to, it's not all bad. You know, we can't give it this, you know, oh, anxiety, you know, evil anxiety over there. Because there are some benefits. You could never completely eliminate the little butterflies that you feel about something that you. Is it really important?

A (29:24)

Yeah.

B (29:25)

You may have done it a hundred times, spoken in front of a group, but you probably feel still a little bit like, all right, hope it goes good.

A (29:31)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (29:32)

And we should break out in hives. If I break out in hives or think I need medication every time that happens, then I'll never take any risks.

A (29:38)

Yeah. So anxiety gets, you know, tipped over to the unhealthy side. When we are not able to sleep well, we're not able to rest. We have ruminating thoughts that we can't stop that are just kind of taking a hold. Or if we move into, like panic too often. Right. You know, and panic over being chased by a bear seems logical, but panic over I'm going to this party where I don't know anybody and we're panicking to the point of being locked up and frozen, unable to move, unable to speak, unable to function. That's where things get. Get dangerous. If we're living day to day with a high level of anxiety that is keeping us from functioning well or really impacting our physical health, that's when we need to seek some help. And sometimes there are things you can do on your own. Sure. To mitigate that. And when you can't find a significant relief on your own, you may need to work with a professional to find out what the roots are of that anxiety are and evaluate if there are other holistic ways to treat it or if you do need to go and look at medication to manage it.

B (30:57)

And if you're not sure how severe it is, a professional can help you.

A (31:01)

Yeah.

B (31:02)

Diagnose where you're at too.

A (31:03)

Yeah.

B (31:03)

Because they probably know the questions, the limits to say, well, tell me how you're affected in this scenario or. Yeah, because somebody might be a little paranoid too. They might think that their anxiety is. Their anxiety is telling them that their anxiety is worse than it is.

A (31:19)

Yes, absolutely right. And so that's a lot of times what, what happens is you become anxious about the anxiety or you become anxious about the panic. And so that's what panic disorder is. You, you become afraid of the next panic attack and so it actually causes one.

B (31:37)

So it's like about your impending panic attack.

A (31:39)

Right, right. So it becomes about the anxiety, about the anxiety instead of, you know, just the regular old anxiety.

B (31:50)

Well, the good thing about, especially for the average person dealing with anxiety, and you mentioned this, that the scripture addresses fear and anxiety. Jesus said very often, don't be afraid.

A (32:03)

Yeah.

B (32:03)

And the admonition, encouragement or exhortation to not be afraid is one of the most frequent commands in the Bible.

A (32:11)

Yeah.

B (32:12)

And I read this book. There's a guy NAMED JOHN DELONEY, Dr. John DeLoney has a book called Building a Non Anxious Life. And to me, he is a Christian, but I don't believe he's not approaching the topic of anxiety. He's not treating it as a Christian in the book, but what he's saying is maybe your anxiety has to do with some real factors in your life that are off. Maybe they're actually telling you real things.

A (32:38)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (32:40)

It makes me think of something that we've studied a lot in our church with the Shema, you know, Deuteronomy 6 is that we're to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength.

A (32:49)

Yes.

B (32:50)

And our pastor so helpfully uses that as a diagnostic metric for.

A (32:57)

Right.

B (32:58)

How's your heart, how's your soul, how's your mind, how's your strength? And if you find things that are off balance or off kilter in those different areas, then put some attention to it. So if your mind is constantly going to the wrong thoughts, then put the it is written and the, the truth of the scripture into your mind and watch it be rewired. I mean, I thought about obviously the, probably the scripture that is most notable about this is from Philippians 4. You know, rejoice in the Lord always. Again, I will say rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. So it's not that there's nothing to be done about it.

A (33:52)

Right.

B (33:52)

You know, and.

A (33:53)

Right.

B (33:54)

And our faith gives us so many tools. Our relationship with the Lord gives us so many tools to deal with this and many other things.

A (34:03)

Yeah, for sure. You mentioned that anxiety could be, you know, the Lord wanting us to pay attention to something. Right. And I'm remembering 2 Corinthians 11:28 and Paul's talking about, he says, apart from other things, there's a daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. Right. So that anxiety gets him focused on the churches. And it doesn't, doesn't say what he does with that anxiety, but that's a normal part of caring for something is that it's going to get us, you know, it's going to get us focused on what we need to be focused on. And that can tip over into unhealthy if we don't do anything with it, if we just allow it to take over. Right. And I think that those verses in Philippians actually tells us what to do with it. Right. Recognize that the Lord is at hand. He is near. That is comforting in and of itself. Tell him, pray to him, cast your anxieties on him, and allow the peace of Christ that surpasses all understanding to guard your hearts and minds. And then think about things that are good and pure and noteworthy. And I can't think of all the words, but. Right. So it tells us exactly what to do with those. And I would imagine that Paul wrote Philippians. Right. Okay, so Paul's figured that out. Right. He's got these anxieties. It doesn't tell us here in 2 Corinthians what he does with it. But I would imagine that because he wrote Philippians, he knows God has given him that revelation of what to do with those normal anxieties that we experience.

B (35:45)

There's also a personality dynamic which we didn't get into much, but there are certain personalities that probably tend. They lean more towards thinking about what could go wrong. And I think generally, like we talked about earlier, if you live in a simulated world, you think you're much more likely to think that action is not action or that non action is action. Does that make sense? Like, so you think, like you've even probably experienced this. People will say, I was talking to so and so that your boys probably do this. I was talking to so and so the other day and they're describing to you. And what you're assuming is they had a conversation.

A (36:26)

Right.

B (36:27)

But what they're talking about is an exchange of text messages.

A (36:29)

Right, Right.

B (36:30)

And that's just one little snippet. We can tend to think that thinking is doing.

A (36:37)

Right.

B (36:37)

And when it comes to prayer. Coming back to this Philippians 4: passage, Prayer is doing. Yeah, Just thinking about, just, just reading that passage and think. Oh, thinking. Okay, here's what I'm told to do. It may not change much to just know that that's what you're told to do.

A (36:53)

Right.

B (36:53)

You actually got to do it.

A (36:54)

Right.

B (36:54)

And just like, just like the developed skill of face to face conversation, that can be lost if you live in a fantasy world.

A (37:03)

Yeah. Behavior changes our thoughts and feelings. So all of those things go together. But just thinking more doesn't change our thinking. Like doing something different changes our thinking and changes how we feel. And so the doing the behavior is a very important part of managing anxiety and reducing anxiety.

B (37:26)

Well, I think we're out of time, but. Wow. We'll probably touch on this topic again.

A (37:31)

I'm sure we will. It's vast and very important.

B (37:35)

Very important. But I'm just so grateful that we have. I mean, even that passage is so wonderful, you know, you Think about.

A (37:42)

Yeah.

B (37:43)

I was talking to a friend recently, newly married, and has experienced just a terrible tragedy in. In their first pregnancy, you know, like lost their first child to a genetic disorder, you know. Wow. And so didn't survive to viability kind of thing. And it's happened to several families in our church.

A (38:07)

Yeah.

B (38:08)

But as I was talking to him, he said, what's been incredible is the amount of peace that we have had through it.

A (38:14)

Yeah.

B (38:15)

And. Wow. And so we started talking about the promises of God and how really true they are, you know, and when we're addicted to comfort, which we could talk about in a whole other episode, but when you're addicted to comfort, you and you avoid pain and not that you should chase after it and for stupid reasons, but you do miss out on some of the comfort that the Lord could provide.

A (38:36)

You do.

B (38:37)

I mean, the life is painful enough, but it was just so cool to hear him share testimony that that peace that passes understanding has been their experience, you know, by casting their burdens on the Lord in the midst of something that's just terribly painful and tragic.

A (38:53)

Yeah, absolutely. It's those valleys. It's those difficult times if we don't go through them, if we avoid them, we might miss out on the greatest experience of the Lord being with us and guiding us and comforting us that that's what he really intends for us to experience with Him. And you know, I. Valleys are horrible, but when we experience them with the Lord, we get a totally different perspective.

B (39:26)

Well, I'll close this in prayer if you don't mind.

A (39:27)

Great.

B (39:28)

Father, thank you that every experience of our lives is meant to draw us closer to you. And as we experience so many unknowns in the world right now, and none of us knows what tomorrow will bring, help us to take comfort and to be given that gift of peace, knowing that you do know what the future holds and you hold the future. And so for us and for anyone listening, dealing with crippling anxiety, anxiety that is affecting relationships, marriage, parenting, even the relationship with you or the growth and development that you have planned for us, I just ask that you would intervene and that you would help us to draw near to you and to take hold of these things that you do give us to help us to live that life where we experience your peace and your joy. And so thank you that you're so good. You're a good father and you give us these things for our good and for your glory. We pray in Jesus name. Amen.

A (40:26)

Amen.

B (40:28)

Thank you for listening to Jesus on your mental health if you would take the time to review and subscribe to this podcast wherever you you listen, it would mean a lot to us. If you'd like to find out more information about Rebecca and her practice, go to jesusandyourmentalhealth.com just remember that this podcast and the information provided by Rebecca Maxwell are solely intended for informational and entertainment purposes and are not a substitute for advice, diagnosis, or treatment regarding medical or mental health conditions. Although Rebecca is a licensed marriage and family therapist, the views expressed on this podcast and all related content should not be taken for medical or psychiatric advice. Always consult your physician before making any decisions related to your physical or mental health. If you're in a crisis, please contact the Crisis Text line at 988 or the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at suicidepreventionlifeline.org or 1-800-273-TALK. That's 8255. Or, of course, your local 911 emergency services.