How to Talk to God, Grief, and Meekness | The Jesus People Podcast Episode 46 | Megan Marshman

Summary

---

Jesus People Podcast - Episode 46: How to Talk to God, Grief, and Meekness

Guest: Megan Fate Marshman
Host: Ryan Miller
Release Date: November 24, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this soul-stirring episode, Ryan Miller sits down with Bible teacher, author, and speaker Megan Fate Marshman to unpack themes of authentic faith, practical relational spirituality, grief and loss, spiritual formation, and the paradoxical power of meekness. Megan vulnerably shares her journey through profound loss, the shifting of her spiritual focus from achievement to openness, how to commune honestly with God, and why true spiritual change starts with relational honesty — not performance. The conversation is packed with honest stories, actionable spiritual practices, memorable metaphors, and gentle challenges for listeners seeking a deeper connection with God.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Presence, Grief, and Re-prioritizing What Matters

• Grief as a Superpower: Megan opens up about losing her husband four and a half years ago and how grief fundamentally reordered her values.
  • “Suddenly you just don't care about the things that don't matter anymore, and you care a whole lot about the things that do... when you have heaven on your mind, suddenly when you're looking at life, you just realize people are the point.”
    (Megan, 01:47 - 03:16)
• People and God as the Point: Grief clarifies priorities; relationships and loving others become central.

2. Formation by Openness, Not Accomplishment

• Let, Don’t Make: Megan reflects on her formation journey, highlighting the shift from striving to accomplish spiritual growth to opening up to God’s transformative work.

  • “The way we become more like Jesus is more about opening to his work in us instead of accomplishing it on our own, which has changed everything for me.”
    (Megan, 03:49 - 03:55)

• Double Imputation (Identity Exchange):

  • She explains the theological idea of double imputation: Christ takes our sin, and we receive his righteousness.
  • “Any non-anxious presence... is not my effort to be more like Jesus. It's understanding He's in and so opening to it.”
    (Megan, 05:48 - 06:27)

3. Remembering Identity: Practical Rhythms

• Onion Metaphor for Identity: Every morning, Megan visualizes peeling away external identities to remind herself she's in Christ at the core, then “puts the layers back on” intentionally.

  • “At the core, core, core of who you are is that you're in Christ as He's in you.”
    (Megan, 08:45 - 09:11)

• Automatic Triggers to Remind: Linking habits (coffee button, stop signs, elevators) to intentional moments with God.

4. Success and Stewardship in a Kingdom Mindset

• Redefining Daily Success:

  • Ryan shifts his goals from productivity to intentional presence: communing with God and serving someone with no expectation of return.
  • “Did I just commune with Him, was I just with Him with no agenda...”
    (Ryan, 10:14 - 10:49)

• Time Is to Be Stewarded, Not Owned:

  • After experiencing Ugandan culture, Megan reflects: “America has all the money in the world, but no time. Time. And I was like, I just have to think about that for a while.”
    (Megan, 15:26 - 15:48)
  • She links American productivity obsession to chronic anxiety.

5. The Gift and Power of Meekness

• Meekness as Tamed Strength:
  • Ryan shares his journey through “the wilderness,” learning that true meekness is “to tame a wild mustang” (Greek: ‘praus’), not weakness.
  • “The meek will inherit the earth. It's talking about... war horses who have fully lost their lives, who have fully put it on the altar and said, everything's Yours. And then he goes, those who lose their life will find it.”
    (Ryan, 23:56 - 24:16)

6. Wrestling with Grief, Anger, and Prayer

• Anger as a Cover for Grief:

  • Megan talks about Psalm 139, how anger often masks grief, and the importance of bringing every raw emotion into God's presence.
  • “Nothing's off limits with God... when's the last time you got with God and went, I'm angry, I'm so sad.”
    (Megan, 35:13 - 36:46)

• God Grieves Too:

  • “He grieves too. Like, he is not okay with the world as it should be. And he just starts with us joining him in the making of all things new.”
    (Megan, 39:55 - 40:26)

7. How to Talk to God: Genuine Conversation & Confession

• Wandering Minds in Prayer:

  • Rather than shaming ourselves for distraction, Megan suggests viewing a wandering mind as a window into the heart: “A wandering mind in prayer is a gift because where's your mind wandering to? Likely it's the very place that has your heart.”
    (Megan, 41:36 - 41:51)

• Confession Brings Intimacy:

  • Megan shares a story of confession with friends, discovering that “if the way that you respond to the worst about me is with love... then give me a spatula. Search me.”
    (Megan, 47:24 - 48:37)

• Praying Instead of Thinking:

  • Ryan illustrates the practical shift: “Are you thinking or are you praying? Because you can think those thoughts or you can pray those thoughts.”
    (Ryan, 52:16 - 52:22)

• Everyday Candidness with God:

  • Ryan: “I called Him ‘dude’ yesterday... I think that's where he wants us... I talked to him like a friend.”
    (Ryan, 53:44 - 54:12)

8. Habit-Stacking Prayer & Everyday Spiritual Practices

• Stacking Prayer Habits:

  • Megan shares ways to “stack” prayer into daily routines (flossing, stop signs, elevators, bedtime routines, brushing teeth).
  • “I live in California. I do something really radical... I stop at stop signs... a breath, I look at my rearview mirror, and thank God for my kids.”
    (Megan, 54:45 - 55:01)

• Tell Him Everything:

  • The simplest, repeated advice: whatever you desire or struggle with, tell God; speak it aloud.

9. Experiencing the Power of God

• Pray for the Unexplainable:
  • Megan’s closing desire: “I want to see the power of God at work in the next season of my life. And I want to see it in undeniable ways... that they would glorify God in response.”
    (Megan, 61:32 - 62:23)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You cannot and will not and have not out sinned the cross. It can't.”
  (Megan, 05:16)

• “Christ in you, the hope of glory. What does that mean?... All of that has so much weightiness, the weight of His glory is in me that it pushes every other identity to the side.”
  (Megan, 06:47 - 07:31)

• “I always pray... Romans 12, offer my body as a living sacrifice, because I want to remember, use me here, use me here.”
  (Megan, 55:13 - 55:24)

• “Confession is not ... you should. It's I agree, I'm not as I should be. And you already know it.”
  (Megan, 46:11 - 46:19)

• “If your mind wanders in prayer, good. Talk to Him about the fact that you think your friend is mad at you.”
  (Megan, 39:47 - 40:00)

• “The kingdom's here. And what's the kingdom? It's his presence. It's where he's made King.”
  (Ryan, 49:11 - 49:18)

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00 – 03:16: Grief, heavenward perspective, and the irrelevance of trivial concerns
• 04:00 – 06:47: Opening to God’s transformation; double imputation explained
• 08:30 – 10:13: Onion metaphor: daily spiritual identity practice
• 10:14 – 15:48: Busyness vs. communion, redefining daily success
• 18:13 – 24:16: Stewarding time, struggles with productivity, and learning meekness
• 31:39 – 40:26: Grief, anger, and bringing raw emotions to God; Psalm 139
• 41:07 – 43:51: Wandering in prayer, practical confession, praying vs. thinking
• 53:44 – 54:12: Talking to God like a friend (“I called Him ‘dude’ yesterday”)
• 54:46 – 59:29: Stacking prayer habits onto daily life
• 61:32 – 64:57: Megan’s prayer for God’s unmistakable power to be seen

---

Practical Spiritual Takeaways

• Bring Everything (Grief, Anger, Wandering, Pride, Shame) to God: The gospel means you can be utterly honest and find not condemnation, but love and transformation.
• Stack Prayer Practice: Anchor prayer to routines — coffee time, commute, flossing, transition moments.
• Rethink Success: Aim for presence with God and service to the overlooked, not just productivity.
• Let, Don’t Make: Surrender your formation to God’s initiative, practicing openness rather than performance.
• Use Confession as Freedom: See confession as engaging God’s love, not adding to your shame.

---

Closing Prayer Highlights (Megan, 64:08 – 66:14)

Megan prays for listeners to trust God with all their hearts, to honestly tell God their truest feelings, and for the Spirit to help them redefine success as finding God’s work around and within them. She invites everyone to give God access to their grief, anger, questions, and desires.

---

Connect with Megan Fate Marshman

• Latest book: Relaxed: Walking with the One Who’s Not Worried About a Thing
• [Link in show notes]

---

In summary: This episode invites listeners into an honest, moment-by-moment relationship with God, one not built on spiritual performance but on continual openness and vulnerability — especially in the realities of grief, anger, and uncertainty. Both Megan and Ryan model practical ways to commune with God as you are, wherever you are, and invite listeners to discover God’s power in ordinary life.

---

Transcript

[Megan Fate Marshman]

When you face either people who have lost someone and heaven is on the mind, not just quoting that Toby song, but when you have heaven on the mind, suddenly when you're looking at life, you just realize people are the point. Foreign.

[Ryan]

Guys, welcome back to the Jesus People podcast. We have the honor of having Megan Fate Marshman on today. Thanks for being with us.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

It's such an honor.

[Ryan]

I was just telling Megan earlier that I have watched you. I've seen the streams video.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Okay.

[Ryan]

That went crazy viral. And the thing about it was, when I was watching this video, it was so clear that there wasn't any, like, hook that was like, you know, it wasn't like a hell or pornography or like a topic that just goes crazy viral. It was about the presence of Jesus.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And that was so cool. And that I think you have such an anointing that translates through a screen and that translates. Just being in person with you here, I was telling you, it's like I recognize that spirit. I recognize that same spirit of. Of just peace of a Jesus person. So very thankful. You've been one that I have been. You've been on my dream list to have on this podcast. So I'm very honored that you're here today.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Ryan]

Well, tell us a little bit about how you got to that place, because that is a rare anointing. That's a. That's a rare piece. That's a rare.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Thing that I. Is just so tangible when I'm with you. So. Yeah. Where did that come from?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Good question. The easy answer would be the sovereignty of God. Praise be to God. The. The answer, I honestly don't know. I wish I had some profound thing to share. I would say becoming more like Jesus will be my lifelong pursuit, but the way in which my whole life I've tried to accomplish that has changed, especially in the past couple years. And yeah, I think I know what's mine to hold and what's no longer mine to hold. I think I know we'll talk about it, so might as well share it now. Right at the start is four and a half years ago, my husband went to heaven. And when he did, everything flipped. And if anyone goes through grief, they may not know that they have this superpower because it probably just feels kind of funky to have. But it's that suddenly you just don't care about the things that don't matter anymore, and you care a whole lot about the things that do. That is one of those. When you are facing life or death, either situations or you are. And you've met people like this. Right. People you've even journeyed with. When you face either people who have lost someone and heaven is on the mind, not just quoting that Toby song, but when you have heaven on the mind, suddenly when you're looking at life, you just realize people are the point.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Which is what's so compelling to me to be sitting here at this chair with you because you get that God's the real point. And if God's the point for you, then he'll make people the point for your time and your focused attention, and it changes everything. So I'll say I've always wanted to look like Jesus, but I thought it was because. Or I thought that the way to get there would be a whole lot of effort. And then I went back to school a couple years ago and learned man. The way of formation. The way we become more like Jesus is more about opening to his work in us instead of accomplishing it on our own, which has changed everything for me. So I feel even freer about my pursuit of becoming more like Jesus because I finally don't feel like it's up to me.

[Ryan]

Wow.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Entirely.

[Ryan]

Yes.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Though I have a part.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And what is that part?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Oh, my. That part. A word that I pulled away from school is the word open to what's already true about me. Here's an example. You know, Jesus, who is the light of the world, looks at his disciples, and Matthew goes, you are the light. And then he says this phrase, let the light shine, not make your light shine. And that little difference is really significant for me. Make is like, try to shine. Let is. There's something different in you.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

So open. Let. Here's the theological term that you can use to impress your friends, even though not the ones that listen to the podcast, they'll know where you got it from. But the theological term, that blew me away. I've been a Christian a majority of my life, and I. I never even understood this word, let alone probably pronounced it or understood the complexity of it into this double imputation. Imputation is accreditation. It's like kind of the essence of the gospel, which I feel like, as I'm getting all energized, relaxes me. And it's this, the Corinthians passage. It says, God made him who had no sin to be sin for us. I knew that part of the gospel my whole life. So the first imputation is, my sin is placed on him. Okay. That's what I got. I got. Jesus went to the cross to die for My sins. Boom. I am therefore forgiven. Yes, of everything. And for anyone listening, it needs to know it in Christ because of what he accomplished. You know this, but I want to personalize it for just a second. Forgiven for all of it. You cannot and will not and have not out sinned the cross. It can't. But the double imputation is what got me recently. It's this second half of that verse. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us. So that spirit is in him. You may become the righteousness of God. So he took mine and this is the part I just missed. He took mine, I receive his. There's an exchange that happens. So any non anxious presence, any Jesusy character you see is not my effort to be more like Jesus. It's understanding. He's in and so opening to it. And the coolest part is he uses everything to get us there. Our sin, our mistakes, our anxiety, our stress. Everything that surprised me where I thought he just used my good behavior and he'll use my discipline, he'll use my quiet time, he'll use my prayers, he'll use that. But he even is so good that he'll use mistakes. Yeah, that blows me away.

[Ryan]

Amen. Christ in you. The hope of glory. What does that phrase for you mean the hope of glory?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

I mean it's our hope into glory. But I don't think that. I think far too many Christians are waiting for future glory instead of present tense. So continuing that, man, that entire thing is the hope of glory is that I always like, I don't know where I got it. Some book I read talked about the weight. OCS Lewis, weight of glory, about how like glory has weight to it. So much so that like with a rock with water that it's weighted, the glory is weighted. So if the rock is heavier than the water, when you drop it in the water, it sinks and it pushes everything aside. So God's glory pushes everything aside. So I almost imagine that as the visual for Christ in me, the light of the world that's within me, the child of God that's within me. That's why I'm a child of God, because I'm in him as he's in me, that all of that has so much weightiness, the weight of his glory is in me that it pushes every other identity to the side. And oh man, we're in this. And I'll. I'll get practical because sometimes these all sound good and everyone's like, oh, I like that. But then nothing changes. And so let's Talk change. I wanted this truth that Christ is in me and I'm in Him to. I wanted to remember that every morning. But I knew that I probably would forget. But I knew I. I knew I wouldn't forget coffee ever. So I started this little way to remind myself. Every time I push my little coffee button, it's a trigger in my brain to remember who I am. I do this little four part prayer, but one of the parts is I imagine an onion. This is actually I got it from one of Dane Ortland's books. Not the super famous book, the other one that I probably know the title of, but we could just drop it in the notes or something. But just imagining an onion, that is me. And you have all these layers. There's the outside layer, what you can see, right? Like how I dress or personality or whatever. And then you peel back a little bit and then you can maybe know some of the job descriptions or where I invest my time or I'm a mom, a widow. It still feels weird. By the way, my 30s, I'm not 30 anymore. Wow, thanks. And then you go a little deeper and you find out maybe the reasons you were formed that way, why we have our insecurities or not our confidences and keep on going, going, going, like. And when you get to the center, you find that at the core, core, core of who you are is that you're in Christ as He's in you. So every morning I have my little onion and I take who I am. I just like peel it back with the Lord. Because I could easily define myself by all the things you could define yourself by the podcast, that guy over there could define himself by how good he is at being behind the scenes. To put other God's stories on display, like easily do that. Or our roles, relationships, responsibilities, by trying to pull those back and come every morning to a place of going, oh, I'm in Him and he's in me. And I feel at that point like the peace you're describing, I'm like, even if nothing's okay, you know? And then fun part for me is the second half of putting the layers back on and then going like, how do I live with him and me? How do I let my light shine? How do I open to the truth of who I already am? Secure, belong, these words that everyone's searching for outside of themselves. Let it settle in. So I'm reminded of it every morning because I think I need it every morning. And I'm going to throw it back to you because you're the podcast guy that asks all the questions, but for fun, how do you remember who you are in a world that recognizes you for what you do?

[Ryan]

I think I need to get alone with him. I think busyness is. What's the quote. It's the. It's the famous John Mark Comer quote. Like, hurry is the enemy of the soul or something like that.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

It's great.

[Ryan]

And so I think for me, I've mentioned this on the podcast a couple times, but I have two goals every day. One is, did I just commune with him? Was I just with him with no agenda to make content? Because sometimes, you know, like, I'm like, ah, it's video day. Gotta make content. So, like, okay, Lord, let me do this quiet time and let me do this. Give me something. Give me something.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And, uh, it's like, no. Was I just with him? Did I just enjoy him?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And that doesn't need to be like, I'm, like, studying the Bible. It means I'll just go and I'll just go on a walk around. I've got this little, you know, mini lake out there that I'll just go walk. Walk around. Yeah. And just enjoy them. Phone off. And then the second thing is, did I serve someone that couldn't do anything for me in return? And so you wouldn't count, you know, because it'd be like, well, you're. You know, there's an exchange here. Like, you're helping our podcast.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Who would count?

[Ryan]

I have a lot of broken people in my life.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

I have that. I'll just call. Or I love that. I'll have people that'll reach out to me or if I see someone in need, you know, to just spend time with them and sit with them. I go to a gym locally here, and some people come up to me, like younger dudes, and they'll be like, oh, you're the guy, you know? And so I'll just. Just instead of, like, I have a thousand things on my plate, but I know that if that's success for me in the day.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Then I stop and I just, like, sit with them and I just ask them about their life. So something like that.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

What I've found, though, is I don't do it every day.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Which I wish I did. But if I'm searching for ways to serve the least of these.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Then for whatever reason, it puts me in a mindset that's selfless.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yes. Here's the question. So the people are literally pointing at you the opposite of who you are in the core, right. Oh, you're the guy that's. It's you. And I'm imagining people listening in, going like, yeah, people affirm our narratives. Or we're searching for people to affirm our wrong narratives. You don't belong.

[Ryan]

You.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

You are unworthy of love. You are, you know, you're alone. You're alone. We're like, we're almost looking for things to take that narrative that we believe. And then.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

And then. Or, or even like really positive things. Right? Like, oh, you're that, mom, you're that. You know, you're that. And so we take on all these identities. What we don't realize. It's like putting all that pressure. I'm curious. This would just be interesting for me to know as someone, like, how do you steward the influence you've been given and how do you steward those moments of being recognized? Like, that's probably something a lot of people don't realize. What it is like to be you. How do you steward that in light of. Is it to turn it back on them? Like, what do you do?

[Ryan]

Yeah, I think two things. I think one, like 30,000 foot. I think the Lord had gotten me to a place in the wilderness where I got like Moses, where I was about to enter in the promised land. I'm like, I don't want it. Because I've realized that, like, right there, that's where I sit or I get on my hands and knees every single.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Morning in this room.

[Ryan]

Right there.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And that's. So that's my spot. So if I'm not with him, then I think I can, I can wear that performance based identity.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I can get to the end of my day and wonder if it was a success for me. So I have to get really practical. I have to get really tangible of what is success for me.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And like that. Then the second thing is I ask, I try to stop and be really present because a lot of people will be like, oh, I'm sure you hate this. I'm sure you hate this. And I'm like, no, I love this. Because what they're seeing is they're like, for me, I just teach the word of God. So I feel like if I stick to the word of God, then it's actually about him.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And for me, I'm getting curious about God's words, which I'm getting curious about him. So for me, it's communing before I communicate. And so if I commune before I communicate and then if I realize what they're recognizing in me is actually that they have a hunger for Jesus and that I can turn on them. I. I try to ask them how I can pray for them. So that's another thing.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah, I love that. And then do you do it on the spot or are you like a. Later. You do it on the spot.

[Ryan]

So I was.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Are you hand on the shoulder? What kind of. What do you do?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Wow.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah. I was. I was going to a Rangers game the other day, and I had my. My little guy with me. And I'm trying to think I probably shouldn't share. There was a close person in my life who is with me and who doesn't know the Lord and has actually been very antagonistic towards the Lord and our faith for a long time. And a guy stops me on the sidewalk as we're walking in, and he's like, oh. And he. He again, same deal. Like, I'm sure you should get to the game. You're fine. I'm like, no, no. Like, hey, what's going on with you? Like, tell me your story. How can I pray for you? And he goes, just horrific stuff happening in his life.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

You know, like death and disease and just a bunch of stuff. And I stopped and I pray for him. And then we keep walking. And I watched in this man's face who was with us. It was he humility. And it was like this recognition of, oh, there's tangible good to your faith.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Y.

[Ryan]

And he. What he was recognizing was the spirit of God moving, I think Christ in us. This, like, community where we're a body. He saw the connection of the body and he didn't know what to make of it other than think it was really cool. And so that was a beautiful moment.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Did he communicate that?

[Ryan]

No, but he did. With his eyes.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yes, he did.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Whoa.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Isn't it cool? Wow. I like that secular. Letting your light shine and then letting people, and then it does something in people. I like what you brought up earlier. You just said, you know, it just depends on what your definition of success is. That's something I've been analyzing. I'd be curious your thoughts on this. I've been thinking a lot about what makes a successful day. Because unconsciously, well, first of all, purposefully, it took my little boys to Africa recently to get to know some friends who are from there. We went and the one thing that kept shocking me, and then someone put it into words really well later they're like, oh, that's the thing about Uganda. It tells all the Time in the world, but no money. And America has all the money in the world, but no time. Time. And I was like, I just have to think about that for a while. And I have. And so I started thinking about time and when, what do I do with my time and what makes time really great. Like you talk about communing like that really is a rich use of time. A rich use of time. And people do have the time. We just haven't prioritized the time. Or we don't think through our definition of success. And if we're not careful. This is what was astounding to me. I think it was the Industrial Revolution, which I'm not a huge. Like, let's look back at history, though I should be. And he. Benjamin Franklin goes, time is money. And I think we really believed him. So much so that here I am today before this trip, or analyzing my life before the trip. And I went. If someone were to ask me, how was today, very commonly I would say, oh, it's good. And then they'd say, why? I'd say, so productive. And I didn't know that that had become the goal. Which makes your type of interactions not make sense. So there's something you've gotten and I wonder how to where an interruption is not an interruption. Because you understand something that I'm only just beginning to taste, which is what would it look like if time was not yours to own, if it was yours to steward? Which I think in those moments, Rangers game like you are, you're stewarding that moment, you're stewarding your influence. And that's a big difference between owning, controlling, stewarding your children, not owning, controlling everything in the steward. I'm going, this changes everything. Because suddenly. And this made sense of why, like people like interruptions would bug me so much. Cause it's like, this is my time. And even the way we talk about time. How is your day? Tell me about your break. How was your summer? Everything is ownership language, which makes productivity the highest goal. So then how was it? Even your quiet time? What did you get out of it? Which is what you said earlier, like, how productive was it? I didn't realize how interspersed it was into everything, which makes me want to learn from you. How'd you get there? Because I went on this little journey back to the Industrial Revolution because I hung out in Uganda where time isn't stressful and no one's rushing to what's next. And people do one thing a day and there's not. And I realized I have a different Value what, what's in me, what went wrong with me? Went to the scriptures, found that like, oh, all time is in his hands. Okay, if it's in his hands, where am I? Am I holding time? Am I stewarding time?

[Ryan]

Is it my time?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

And I can't stop thinking. But what I realized is it explained so much of my anxiety, specifically when it comes to my high goal of productivity. And for you, it sounds like you have a different goal and then how'd you get there?

[Ryan]

Yeah, the Lord took me into a season of beautiful time in the wilderness with him, where I had this performance based identity my whole life. And baseball players are interesting, an interesting breed because it's an honor chain game. And so it's just you up to bat. And so if you strike out, everyone just watched you fail. And so baseball players, like a lot of people think like, we'll, we'll talk like baseball players are D bags, you know, like they're jerks. And, and, and it's like, well, no, what they've done is they have created a Persona that masks shame because they're faced with shame from the time they're five years old.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And so that's why baseball players have this thing about them. And I started noticing that about myself. And when I didn't make it to the big leagues, the Lord took me in the wilderness for a long time. And he dealt with a lot of that performance based thinking. And, and the word he gave me was meekness. And I just done this big project. A lot of listeners, they've listened, have probably heard me say the story. But it was this big film project. We took four boys out of gangs, prison, foster care, and paired them with wild mustangs to tame and train over 40 days.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Wow.

[Ryan]

Really cool project. Finished it. And the Lord basically, through a long series of events, we didn't end up taking it out to Hollywood. We had multimillion dollar offers from studios in Hollywood and the Lord started giving us dreams and visions to pull it from Hollywood. So we did out of obedience. But the rest of the world looked and said, oh, it just failed. You know, they didn't know it was an obedience act. That we actually could have taken the MGM deal, but we didn't. And we're just being obedient to what he's doing. So that led me into like panic attacks and stuff because now I'm thinking, who am I? Like I don't, I don't know who I am anymore. And so I would start waking up, I had this pink yoga mat that I'D put down on my floor and I'd just be on my face feeling so uncomfortable in my body. Like, couldn't get my body to settle down. Just tight muscles and bracing dots and tight chest and. And I kept asking, lord, what are you doing? And he kept saying the word meekness. And I'm like, that's so boring. Like, give me something good, you know?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And. And finally, I just looked up every verse on meekness. I looked up the Greek lexicon for what does it mean to be meek? And about fell off the couch because the word meekness means to tame a wild mustang. The word is prowse. And I just don't. I'm maybe the only person on the planet that has context for how to tame a wild mustang.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Okay, so here's. I've. I've defined meekness two different ways. I don't got them from. One of them, though, was the discipline of not having the last word. So is the wild. What's the name of the horse? What is it?

[Ryan]

Wild mustang.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

The wild mustang. Is that the tongue, like, I wonder, or is it everything?

[Ryan]

Okay, so. So, yes. So there's all these prophetic pictures of how you tame a wild horse. You know, the first step is to get that horse, horse to look at you. So realize that, you know, they're prey, animals were predators. So try to get this thing that thinks you're going to kill it to trust you. And the more it looks at you as you basically walk away from it and give it what it wants, which is to get the heck away from you. It gets addicted to, like, looking at you, and then it begins to follow you. So the kindness of the Lord leads you to turn around your life and repent and follow him.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Sure.

[Ryan]

So I start, like, I have. I have a grid for all these things, and then the word brought them to life. So I got addicted to talking to the meekest people on the planet. So I. I'm, like, calling my buddies who are, like, well connected. I'm like, who's the meekest man? You know, I talked to this one dude who was a CIA agent, crazy stuff. And he. He stops me as I'm talking to him, and I'm wanting to pick his brain. And he goes, ryan, you keep using the word surrender when you talk about meekness. He's like, it's a good word, but there's a better word. He's like, let me tell you a story. We were in Afghanistan back in the early 90s. We're training the Taliban at this time. We're on their side. We're training them to fight the Russians. And he said, I'm trying to train these, these Afghan fighters, these Taliban fighters to just like get behind a rock or something. When these helicopters would buz raining down fire, but they didn't care, they just start popping off shots at this helicopter and it's like, get behind a rock. But they didn't care. And I realized he's like the holy Spirit tapped me on the shoulder in that moment and said, these men are meeker than you are. They've lost the complete ownership of their lives and you're still holding on to stuff.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And so he said, ryan, I think a better word is actually ownership. Like, do you own your time? Do you own your money? Do you own your family's health? Do you own your career? And when you have fully lost your life, when you've become like the wild horse who has encountered the love of its master, that felt the touch of the holy Spirit, as these horses have hooves, they don't have hands. So when you touch this wild horse for the first time, they're like, what was that? And then they become so in love with you that they say, have everything. I'll give you my back, put the saddle on my back, put a bit in my mouth. I'll go wherever you nudge the reins. And so that to me has become my metric is have I completely laid everything? And because the beautiful thing is, as you know this, when you do that, when you say Christ in me, like, lord, it's all yours. It's all yours. Every single morning, I give it all back to you. He then gives it back tenfold.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

You know, and then he, then he can tell you, then he can go, okay, I've got some things for you to do.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah. And then everything becomes a gift.

[Ryan]

Because here's the beautiful thing. The Greeks would go into the mountains and they would tame wild mustangs into war horses. And so those autonomous, hazardous, massive, thousand pound animals, once they actually understood the heart of their master, they'd do anything. So they became the best war horses. Because with instinct, they anticipated where the Lord was nudging or where their master was nudging.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Geez.

[Ryan]

And so the meek will inherit the earth. It's talking about. Not meek. Is a mouse, Mika's mustang. Some of the war horses who have fully lost their lives, who have put, fully put it on the altar and said, everything's yours. And then he goes. Those who lose their life will find it.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And so he, he gives it back to You. But in proper order in the kingdom.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yes. Wow.

[Ryan]

Wow.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

He just. Wow.

[Ryan]

I want to take a quick break, and I want to tell you about a ministry that my family personally supports. It's called Global Christian Relief. And you may not know this, but there are more persecuted Christians around the world than ever before. And Global Christian Relief sends medical aid. They send Bibles to persecuted countries that don't have access to them. They're providing shelter. They're taking care of the least of these in the name of Jesus. And if you want to support them, you can click the link in the show notes. You can read stories of what God's doing in the persecuted church. And know this. Jesus says that what you've done for the least of these, you've done for him, but also that when we love each other as a body of Christ, the rest of the world will see him. So go check it out.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Took me a lot of places.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

And I'm landing on the Beatitudes, which take. Yeah. Well, it takes me to. Yeah. I mean, I've heard so many wonderful people teach on. You know, this is what Jesus did for us, therefore, what we receive. And this is who Jesus is. Therefore, like, obviously, he's forming us more into his likeness. Or another thing that my mind's jumping to right now. I read the Randy Alcorn Heaven book. The dead one. Yeah. There's like. I feel like it's like maybe the gift you give people when people lose people. And there's an amazing chapter in it, one of them. He's talking about, actually the government in heaven. And I was like, whoa. Really? Like, structure, order, like, how it's.

[Ryan]

Whoa.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

And he's writing about it. I'm just reading about it one night. And he talked about hierarchy. And he's like, you know, who has hired. And he's telling the story of being a speaker at a conference. And the bellhop, the guy who was actually in the elevator, that would be like, where are you going on third? And he pushes the button for you, which is an interesting job. And the guy goes. At some point, he goes, oh, so what's the conference this week? And the speaker, Randy, was like, oh, it's actually. I'm the speaker.

[Ryan]

What?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

You're the speaker? What's it about? It's a Christian conference. No way. I'm gonna pray for you. Always. Take my elevator. Take my elevator. You know, the guy is like, yeah, for sure. I'll take your elevator. And the whole conference series gets in that elevator, gives this guy an update. So stoked. So stoked. So stoked. He's just like, oh, I'm praying. Here's what I'm praying for. How have you seen the answer? And everyone's excited about it, or just the two of them are having this great conversation. And then he finishes his chapter, talks through hierarchy, which is just an interesting concept when you think about heaven and who will rule. And he goes, I think we know who will rule in the kingdom of Heaven. That's. Isn't that what he outlined in the Beatitudes? Blessed are those, like, blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Blessed are those who cry. My translation for they. I mean, all that ruler language that you get in the second half. He goes, I think that's it. And then he gives this great line at the very end. I'll never forget it. He goes, I think I'm gonna be holding the bags for that bill hop. Like, it's just a perfect wrap up to the chapter. And I remember sitting there as someone that has just even in the past couple years stewarded a story of grief that and. And attempted to share not once I feel like I arrive at new places, but right in the middle of it, because I know people are in the middle. Like, you know, you and I can look back on our wilderness seasons and talk about in past tense, but we're speaking to people who are, like, in it. We're like, we can look back like, oh, such a gift. And they're like, okay, like, give me faith to believe that. Right? They're. They're present. And I feel like that's been the journey that I've been on. But I can remember at the end of that chapter just crying, because as someone that does, like, ministry for a living, I think people come up and they'll be like, oh, man, you're going to be blessed in heaven. I'm like, yeah, until you make that comment. And I just got my lost. My heavenly reward. Thanks a lot.

[Ryan]

Right?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

I don't know how that works, but. Yeah, but I just go. I remember starting crying and I'm like, it's not blessed. Or the influential. It's not blessed. Who I've like, hadn't. Yeah. Not blessed are the authors. Not blessed are the really smart parents who understand psychology of a child. It is basically Beatitudes. Blessed are the ones who are willing to cry. That one gets me. Every time I've had people go like, hey, my mom's.

[Ryan]

When people hate you.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Oh, say awful things.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, Say awful things about you. Then you're blessed. Yes, it's the. Have you listened to that Ben Rector song, the Men who Drive Me Places?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

No, tell me.

[Ryan]

Oh, man, it gets me every time because. Listen to it on the drive back. Because he basically talks about these men who drive him to his shows. And his line is, I've learned I'm half the man as the men who Drive Me places. And because about this man who gets up to feed his family and he has to get up at 4am in order to provide. And this man, you know, like all this stuff that. And the thing that gets me. It's not a Christian song, but it's a Kingdom song, because the picture there is the Beatitudes. It's. It's that person that's a nobody on the surface. Doesn't have the followers, doesn't have the stage, doesn't have the Big Book deal, like none of those things. But he's faithful in the small. And I think that, that, that I. I think there is a healthy fear of the Lord when you're in a position like we're in, where you do have the acclaim, you do have the applause to not be the men, the Pharisees who went out to pray on the street. And they got their reward because guess what they wanted. They wanted the applause, but they didn't get him.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And that's why I think, you know, that's why I come back to my goals.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Like, if I can just serve the least of these, I'm. I'm like peak Alpha in the Kingdom, you know, like someone who doesn't. You can't do anything for me.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

If I can just be in his presence, I win. And I speak in all hypocrisy because I fail at the most days. You know what I mean? I've not arrived, not even close. Arrived at this. But that is. At least I have my target. I know where I want to go, and I think that'll follow me the rest of my life.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Is.

[Ryan]

That's the target.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah, I hope so, because then it'll keep stewarding this call in your life. I was talking with my spiritual director recently about this very tension. Like, what do you do with. Like, what do you do with the parts of you that you don't like? I'm just really. Well, I'm well aware of my pride. Well aware. But it's. It's a lot easier for people to digest. Oh, pride. Oh, well, all of us, you know, and it almost gets like, diminished a little bit when you talk about it, because people oh, you're so great that you're aware of it. Which, again, only bolsters my pride and how aware of my pride I am, ironically. So it's actually a problem. And I was telling her about, like, man, this is really a problem. I, like, hate certain things about my pride. And then what I hate is that my pride likes certain things, and I hate that. Like, what do I do? Then it came to her, like, you know, we waited for the Lord, and, you know, she just, like, listens for me, and I'm just like. And then we go to Scripture or whatever, and by the end, she just goes like, I thank God for your Russell. And I'm like. I was kind of hoping for, like, an arrival. And she's like, I'm just gonna keep thanking God for the wrestle.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Because the wrestle is like, you're dependent upon God in that rustle. If the wrestle's done, that's when you're probably gonna be most in trouble. And I was like, thank you for the wrestle. Thank you for hating that. And back to, like, even what we were talking about earlier, like, God uses, truly, all the things. Right. To form us more into the likeness of Jesus, so we just need to let him, I suppose.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I want to. I want to kind of go back to your story because you mentioned a couple pretty heavy things, that you lost your husband four and a half years ago. How has that grieving process been?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I'm sure that's a very layered question.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Oh, man.

[Ryan]

So wherever the spirit takes it.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah. I don't want to consider the question, not just answer quickly where the question you said was, where's grief?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

I think.

[Ryan]

I think you're. At this point, you're.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

You're someone who speaks about this and someone who is clearly knowledgeable about grief. And I think a lot of people feel a certain type of way about grief. Either shove it away. Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Or like, how I gave one talk on grief. I've done one. I've been asked a lot. I've only given one. I've actually talked more on anger, surprisingly. But grief. I remember doing one where by the end, I was wooing people to grief. That was my goal, was to get people to go, like, this world is not as it should be. You are not as you should be. The person that hurt you is not as they should be. Like, nothing is as it should be. And the appropriate response is grief. It's sorrow. It's lament. It's all these. And I remember stepping off stage and I was like, well, I remember telling someone, like, I feel kind of mean because I know what grief feels like. I feel kind of mean to go like, oh, this is what you need, because I know what it feels like. Even recently, what I've been talking about a lot lately is anger. Because a lot of people, what anger is covering is grief. It's. I don't like that this world's not as it should be. And so anger at least allows someone to feel in control. And grief just feels kind of pathetic. It kind of feels just sad and lonely, even if you're surrounded, like, grief feels like. Whereas anger, at least you can. I take people to Psalm 139, which is, like, the token women's conference. Like, I just can imagine churches with, like, the sweatshirt logo of, like, fearfully and wonderfully made. Because this is just such a great passage for that. And the whole passage has this great little trajectory. It spends six verses talking about omnipresence, like, or. Sorry. It starts with omniscience. God knows everything. Like, everything. I remember even doing a Bible study once, and we split up, guys and girls, and it was so funny. It was on the first six verses about how God knows everything. And the girls came back, and they're like, aw, he knows me. So known. And then the guys came back, and they were like, oh, so he, like, nose, huh? Yeah, it was funny. So he talks about that, and then it gets into the second movement. Next six verses are about his omnipresence. Like, oh, he's everywhere. Like, if you go up to the heavens, there he is, because there he is. If I make my bed, there he is. And then the third movement is his, like, omnipotence, his power. But specifically, what he chooses to do is to create knits, which I like that visual, because knitting takes time. So he knits us. That's where you get the fearfully and wonderfully made. And then I love that David says, I know that full well. Right? And then the psalm takes a turn away from me, you who are bloodthirsty. Wait, what?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. That wouldn't fit on the sweatshirt. Like, where would you put it?

[Ryan]

I don't armpit.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah, yeah. Away from a bloodthirsty. Do I not hate those who hate you? Do I not abhor those who are evil against you? It goes. He just goes off in anger and in studying it. And I remember one of my professors talking about it. This is an imprecatory psalm. Like, the token women's conference chapter is a psalm casting, asking God to cast judgment on evil. It's like a psalm of hate and anger. And I was like, what? It begins with search me, it ends with search to me. And there's highly relational language on everything. God's not just exposing who he is, he's exposing who he is relationally. And it's so crazy. We can be on this podcast. People can even like it. You can like this podcast, you can listen to these ideas, and you would miss absolutely everything if it doesn't draw you to the time spent, which it takes time where it's you and it's him. Oh. And what needs to come out there, I don't know. But for the psalmist David, in Psalm 139, it was this. He's mad. And if you recognize that that's a David's heart, and the heart matters so much throughout scripture, right? Proverbs 4:23, above all, scarred your heart. Everything you do flows from it. And other words, every single thing you do comes from. Therefore, if you want to change your doing, if you want to change your behavior, you have to get to the heart. And the one who could do that is God, which makes sense of quiet time. But Psalm 139, if you look at it entirely as a psalm of anger, you read it so differently. You have searched me, God, and you know me. You know my sitting down, my lying up, you know, you know my thoughts from afar before words on my tongue. Lord, you perceive it entirely. You know me. And if I try to get away from you, I can't. If I go there, if I'm like, worshiping you there, if I'm like, in despair, you're there. You know me. You made me. And then you gave me all these capacities for things like anger. You made me, and you call me wonderful, with the capacity to be mad, that this world is not as it should be. And so what do you choose to do with it? He shares it to the Lord, and then ends again with, search my heart, test me, know my anxious thoughts, and lead me in the way, everlasting. In other words, he goes, you can handle it. And I know listeners know this. Nothing's off limits with God. We've heard the great quotes, but when's last time you got with God and went, I'm angry, I'm so sad. And I also, you said, tell me about the grief journey. I kind of feel terrible because I know what anger feels like, and I know what sad feels like, but I also know what it's like to do those two emotions by yourself. And that's too much. So I woo them so that they do them with the one who doesn't just love them of afar, but dwells within lights. In other words, exposes everything that is in them and then loves them entirely. And I say love. I went back to school to get, like, the highest level of education that I could, specifically. And how we change spiritual formation, all these concepts. And I'll never forget one of the climax moments. The entire class, we're, like, learning how people change. How do they actually become more like Jesus? What's that process? What's our job? What's God's job? What's the intersection? Tell me. And, you know, he's lecturing, lecturing, and we're all, like, building anticipation. He goes, and here it is. And all of a sudden, like, it feels like, this is it. Where are we going?

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, just.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

We'll keep that in there.

[Ryan]

It's an old Bible.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

And he goes, you're more loved than you realize. He loves you. Back to Psalm 139, knowing all of it. And he knows not only all of it, he knows what it is doing to you more than you know what it's doing to you. And if only he would not do that thing alone. I think one of the most beautiful gifts of our faith is that it's so relational that he's real, but he's really all powerful. He really knows everything. He really is everywhere. And all of when he shares who he is, it's in relationship with us. That blows me away. And I just want to woo anyone listening in, oddly enough, to open up everything, to pause the podcast. If you're driving, keep your eyes open. But wherever you're listening to, find your square of the carpet and start talking out loud if necessary. But if you don't do it out loud and your mind does that wandering thing, I have something for that, too. Let it wander. What a wandering mind. Dr. John Ko says a wandering mind in prayer is a gift because where's your mind wandering to? Likely it's the very place that has your heart. Jesus says, where your treasure is, there your heart will be. Therefore, if your mind wanders in prayer, good. Talk to him about the fact that you think your friend is mad at you. Oh, I think we spend a lot of time and energy for God and miss him entirely. And I just want to woo people through my own grief journey that I have found him. And in grieving, I have found his heart. And he, just like me, cares a whole lot about the things that matter and what you Feel and have experienced matters. And he's met me there. He's. He's. And he's let me know that this was news to me, that he. He grieves, too. And I knew the shortest verse in the Bible. I memorized that one nice and early for bonus Bible points or Bible bucks or something. But he grieves, too. Like, he is not okay with the world as it should be. And he just starts with us joining him in the making of all things new. So I. I just encourage people to let it start with you. And you don't have to pretend to be spiritually somewhere else or leap from where you'. Just like in the incarnation. God knows you can't get to him even with your best efforts. But that's why he comes to us instead of us trying to get to Him. He comes to us. All we just need to do is open everything.

[Ryan]

That was like, one of the most practical nuggets for prayer I've ever heard. So let me make sure I got that right.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

I know. A little ramp. Sorry about that.

[Ryan]

It was beautiful. So when your mind wanders in prayer. Good.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Oh, sure. Yeah.

[Ryan]

It's pointing out it can be good.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yes, yes. And I think that God wants God. It's so wild. So many of us have trusted the Lord Jesus for eternal salvation. But the fact that you're financially stressed, you're like, gotta figure that one out by myself. Gotta figure out my calendar, my planning with my kids, as if God doesn't want to be in everything. So I would say for me, I have to talk out loud in prayer to stay disciplined, to be worshipful. I even have a silly acronym I got from my friend Robert Watson. Tacos, Thanksgiving, adoration, Confession. Yeah. Other stuff I have, like, I have the acronyms, but when I just am sitting quietly before the Lord, you know, contemplation, whatever prayer method people do. But if it wanders. Actually, one of the four parts of my morning prayer routine of my coffee is to let my mind go where it does and then talk to him about that.

[Ryan]

That's so cool, because I struggle with that. I was struggling with that last night. I was. I had a busy day. And at the end of the day, I was like, I feel like I never talked to you today, Lord. I just kind of did my thing. And so then I was like, okay, I'm going to leave my phone here. I'm going to go walk my little pond in the neighborhood. And my mind just kept going. And I'm like, oh, focus, focus, focus, focus. But what you're saying is, no, no, no. Don't focus back on God. Invite God into the wander.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Wow. I know. So here's the encouragement. Don't pause the prayer.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Because I used to wander pause. Once I realized it would take me, like, 90 seconds to realize my mind was somewhere else. And then you, like, pause it and then you're like, shame yourself back to the performance. Yes, unintentionally. Now, I think there is a time and a place for both. So I wouldn't say, oh, then just this is you, Lucy.

[Ryan]

Lucy. Like, that's just.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

We'll see. I'd say both, and I think both have different purposes for us as well. Am I thinking back to a story? Actually, I saw on that streams video, which is how I know we kind of originally got connected. Whereas this guy, it was this pastor, and he was sharing about getting a haircut, and I thought it was such a simple story, but he just goes, you know, there I'm getting a haircut, and I'm kind of curious about the guy, but I'm also just getting a haircut, and the guy ends up having this conversation. It wasn't like, deeply profound, but it was just, like, relational. And the guy was just there getting a haircut. And then at the end, the guy, the barber, is like, dude, I was going to take my life today. Whoa. And there's something. Something about you and the guy, in reflecting back, he was going, I think his name's Stephen Boster. He goes, I. I didn't really do much different. I was just a guy getting a haircut. And his point blew me away. He goes, I think I just forget who it is that I carry.

[Ryan]

Ooh.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

So I think there's effort involved, yes. I think there's discipline involved, yes. I think there's focus involved, yes. I think there's wandering. Go with it at times. Yes. I have a discipline of going with it in the middle of my discipline of, like, getting to my who I am in Christ. Like, I have all of them. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And the best news of all, which really led me to a more calm posture about my faith journey, is passage in the one that just says, and he who began a good work will complete it. You have no idea who you carry. We forget about it all the time. There is the Prince of Peace, mighty God, everlasting Father. That's who's in you. If you've given your life to Jesus, if he's taken yours and you, by faith, by grace, through faith, have received his, something has changed in You. You are new and yet not yet what you'll become, right? But something has changed. That gives us the power source to walk around and even on a wandering mind day, recognize. And he hasn't left. That's good news for us. And he's gonna use all the things and how crazy back to the very beginning of our conversation. He'll even use our forgetfulness to humble us into the fact that we are distracted people. He'll use our awareness of our distractions to bring us back to him. And I'm. I'm. I've really. The word confession that someone said, the statement. They're just like, I think it just means I agree with you. And I'm like, I like that. I think it really lands. It's just confession is not, you know, you should. It's. I agree, I'm not as I should be. And you already know it. And this. Actually, I want to share this moment. This one's. I was with a friend of mine, and there's something I needed to confess. I knew it. And I just shared with my friend. I said, I've been needing to share this with someone. Here it is. Let's go to the Lord. And she goes, can I bring a friend in? I'm like, didn't invite a friend. This isn't like a friend moment. But she goes, no, trust me. I think it'll be helpful. I'm like, I do trust you, so I'm gonna go with it. She, like, pulls up zoom and pulls up her friend. Now there's three of us. I'm like, nice to meet you. And by the. Here's some sin. And it really went this way. And she. My friend's like, go ahead. And she starts, like, interceding on my behalf. I'm like, what just happened? And I'm now telling this other gal about my sin, But I kind of went, like, a safer version of it up here. And she's like, oh, he loves you. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And she goes, do you want to, like, bring it to him? I'm like, I do. She's like, go ahead and confess to him. Like, oh. And I said it to the Lord. I'm like, will you forgive me? And she goes, and how beautiful is it? We know his answer is yes every time. I'm like, we do know that. And since we do, there's something else, you know? And then I shared it with my friend and her friend, and I'm listening to how she's responding. She's like, yes, he knew and he knows what that does to you, and he's with you on the journey. And I'm like, yeah. And since that's true, there's more. Here you go. And I'm like, 90 minutes later, Ryan, I am doing what David did in that psalm. I'm searching. I felt like my heart was this bowl of cookie dough, and I took a spatula because I'm like, if that's true, if the way that you respond to the worst about me is with love and a journey through love that will get me to a place where I can thrive again, where I can make relationships, where I can make them right again, if that's really how you respond, which the scripture teaches us it does, then give me a spatula. Search me. Find any unwholesome way within me. Test me. Know my anxious thoughts. Uncover it all. When you understand confession, when you understand repentance is just turning back when you understand these terms that have almost felt like additional shame. They do, because what they do is they create freedom, too. And we talked about shame earlier. To uncover the shame and to look at it, we are not as we should be. And the world says to cover it by being positive. And the world says to cover it by hiding it from everybody and just being a good person. And everyone has something they want to do with shame. And yet the only one that can cure our shame and our guilt is not by blaming, hiding, positivity, or getting better at it, or, quote, just stop being angry. No, no, no, no, no. Only Jesus Christ looks at and says, I know you, and I know that I love you. Knowing all of that, and in Christ, you're accepted. You belong. Everything you've been looking for and all of your coverings can only be found in me. So with that zoom moment with my new friend, and you originally started the question with a grief journey. I think absolutely everything which one day in heaven will be laid bare before the one to whom we must give an account. And I'm convinced when we stand before God the Father, that in that moment, we will, with everything exposed, have never felt more loved in our entire life. And I thanks be to God through prayer today. And this is what you experience? I have a feeling on a consistent basis, which is why this podcast is working for people. I'm convinced that we don't have to wait for heaven to experience that level of loving acceptance today. The question is whether willing to expose it or if we're just going to keep hiding. Yeah.

[Ryan]

The kingdom's here. And what's the kingdom? It's his presence. It's where he's made king.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I think so many believers think that we're going to get there one day. And I do think it's going to be that extra measure of love that we can just encounter. But I think so many. I think this breaks God's heart maybe more than anything, is that his body doesn't recognize how much access they have to him right now, that we have full access to him and we can encounter all of the fruit, the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness. We can encounter his good pleasure over us, that he's not mad at us. That when he said, it's finished, he meant it. That when he told us that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, he's like, you're my treasure. I spent time, you know, and I think if I, you know, sometimes I'll, like, think of the thumbnail of, like, the podcast in the middle of the podcast. Like, I think this is kind of what the theme of the podcast is. What's coming to mind is just, like, how to talk to God.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

How do you talk to God? And what I'm hearing from you is, like, when your mind wanders, talk to him. When you feel angry, tell him. When you are in sin, just give it to him. Just confess it nice and easy. Bring others in.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Like, if.

[Ryan]

If he really. If he did die for not just our sin, but he died with our shame. That's something I think a lot of people don't recognize.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

He died with your shame because the Bible says he was despising the shame. Whose shame was it? Yours?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So, like, he's dealt with it. And so we can be back to the Garden. Which means what, we can just be bare before him?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yes.

[Ryan]

And. And lay it all out before him. One. One story. So I was coaching baseball at Biola University, and that's where I got my doctor. Let's go.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Go Eagles.

[Ryan]

Go Eagles.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So I'm coaching baseball at Biola. We had this one kid who was like six foot five, just a monster. Scouts would come with Verhoeven. No, after Verhu. Sorry. Post Verhuven.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Sorry. That was. Yeah, go back to your shirt. My bad.

[Ryan]

So this kid's just a monster. He's like 6 foot 5, jacked, like, looked like he was 35.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And the scouts would drooling watching him take batting practice. But he was having a horrible year. And so the coaches are trying to figure out, like, what is the deal with this kid? He's just, like, a mental midget like he just can't get it together. They're thinking it's a toughness problem. So finally I just, like, sat him down. I'm like, dude, what's going on? Like, what's the deal? And he's like, I've been too scared to tell anyone. I'm like, well, what's going on? He said, I keep thinking about my ex girlfriend in the box. And I think a lot of people would have laughed at that. Like, what, you're a ball player and you're thinking about your fights with your ex girlfriend two years ago in the box. But he said these intrusive thoughts that just would spike up, especially when he's in the batter's box. And so I just asked him a question. I said, well, buddy, are you thinking or are you praying? Because you can think those thoughts or you can pray those thoughts. And he goes, huh? And we talked about casting our cares on him, throwing our fears onto his.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Back, thinking it or praying.

[Ryan]

And so he would walk up, he'd walk from the audience deck circle. He'd walk into the batter's box, and he'd look back at me and he'd kind of like every time he'd like, look at me, and I'd be like, we're praying. And he'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he's. He started praying in the batter's box and he went on a tear. He just started demolishing the baseball because all of a sudden his anxious thoughts, which his soul was not meant to carry. Yeah, our soul were not. Like those intrusive thoughts were not. There's too much for our soul to carry. So what does Jesus say to do? Throw him on his. Yeah, that. That word for cast. It's the same word used to throw a saddle on the back of a horse. So you. And that's a skill you have to learn to chuck this big saddle on the back of a horse. You have to get all your energy and you do it over and over again until it becomes like, like nothing. You see these, like, little girls who are like, you know, wranglers that just will just toss it up like it's nothing. And then I'm trying my first time while I'm clunky, like, trying to do it, but they've just done it so many times where it's like, easy. And I think it's a skill to be learned to just. Instead of thinking your fears, you just pray your fears. And consistently throughout the day, like, I'm so jealous of people that Are just like, I just talk to God all day. I'm like, I don't. I wish I did. But yeah, like, how much better would life be if, like, I've found myself praying out loud recently when I'm walking, I was like, oh, God. I. Dude, I called him dude yesterday.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Wow.

[Ryan]

I called him dude and. And I, I caught it and I was like, was that bad? Should I have not called you dude, God? Like, because you're. You're holy. Like, like I will fall on my face one day, like, in love and in reverence, like, should I not have called you dude? And I felt like he was like, that's exactly what I wanted you to call me.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And it wasn't because it was irreverent. It was because I had gotten in the flow of just talking to him like a friend that it just slipped out.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I think that's where he wants us. And for me, that was a big win moment. I can see the clips right now on social media being like, this guy called God dude and getting mad. But like, no, that is that for me, that was a big moment in faith where I stopped and I was like, I think I just leveled up there. Yeah. Because I got out of my head.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I talked to him like a friend. And I'm not advocating, just go call God dude. But for me, in my. That moment with the Lord, it was, it was a special moment.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah. Where you knew him and you let him know you right where you were at.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

That's beautiful.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Wow. I. You mentioned something. I'm trying to think back to. Oh, talking to God. Because that being the theme. And I think I am just as forgetful as anyone else. But I think sometimes it's helpful to be inspired, but then also to have practical tools for it. So whether it's your coffee button in the morning, I hope people take man. Join me. Other ones that I have. And I wonder how you try to remember, but I live in California. I do something really radical in California. I stop at stop signs. Like, I come to a full and complete stop, which is big deal in California. And because I remember it was when I was reading the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry John Mark Comer. And I remember hearing something to the effect of, like, you can't like, display the fruit of the spirit in a hurry. And I realized I was hurrying not just through life, but through stop signs. And for me, when I come to a stop, I take a breath and then I look at my rear view mirror and I notice my little kids in the car. And it becomes this, like, spiritual discipline of, like, thanking God for their presence. I don't know what it is. I remember even praying my son was having a hard season with just, like, frustrations and anger. Probably grief expresses anger. And I'll never forget this one lady started praying for me, and she goes, like, I feel like God's, like, leading me to pray for you, to just to delight in him. And so this is also discipline to delight in my kids. Not just, like, yes, I'm gonna discipline them. Yes, I'm gonna be on them. Yes, I'm gonna want the best for them. Yes, I'm not gonna settle for their bad behavior. Yes, I'm not, you know, like, I'm doing all those parenting things, but the one that actually sometimes needs to be disciplined, too, is to delight in them. To, like. I remember watching them eat the other day. I was just looking at him, and I was, like, studying his little face. One of them, he just lost his two front teeth. My youngest one, I was just looking at how weird that looks and just loving them. And he's just little quirky thing. I remember even hearing recently, like, your youngest, like, the crazies is like, your little spirit animal that was probably tamed when you were a kid. Like, don't tame theirs. Like, let it ride. And I've just been in delighting and how weird he can be, and I love it. Other ones, when I get on elevators, and it's just a transition, a natural transition from one floor to the next, I always pray. Romans 12, offer my body as a living sacrifice, because I want to remember, like. Like, use me here, use me here. And it's so fun. I bet the lady that works on the third floor appreciates that I always pray that prayer because, man, I'm more present with her than I am. Um, elevators. Reminder. Driveways are a reminder. Any place of transition is a reminder. When I floss, I pray for my friends. Like, when I get into my second. So I do my bedtime routine at first with the older, then with the younger. When I get into the younger and he starts falling asleep and just scratching his back, that's when I'll do my little examine. Throughout the day, I just know I'm forgetful. I don't say all this to, like, boast. I say this to go, like, I forget always, and I don't want to. And rather than relying on my own autonomy, which is one of the weakest sources of strength I've got, right? I mean, think about when you hear that sermon on prayer, and you're like, I'm gonna pray more. And then you try to remember on your own to pray more. That lasts till, like, Wednesday. I think we oftentimes rely on autonomy, the weakest form of strength, instead of taking it to God. So if you want to pray more, back to your through line, tell them if you've spent quiet time with the Lord for years and then you took this long break because basically you realize, like, like, I don't feel like I'm getting it. I just don't. And you kind of, like, have settled for a valley of dry bone spirituality. And you're just like, if that's speaking you right now, like, tell him. Tell him if you want to be more disciplined, tell him, Invite him. If you want to get better at the certain thing, tell him the certain thing. I can't think of anything more practical. And I love. I know the spirits in conversations when I'm saying maybe the most obvious things that could ever be said. Like, our podcast today is about a really relationship with God, like a real one that feels so obvious it almost gets mentioned. But I think it also gets really assumed within church contexts. And I spent far too long relying on my own autonomy for spiritual formation, for spiritual growth, my own autonomy to try to remember, to pray more. And so I rather have put disciplines in place and laugh, because he wants to be in every single one. And the encouragement is. Is maybe in response to this podcast, let your mind go and then tell them.

[Ryan]

Yeah, that's so good. It's like you stack habits, but you're stacking prayer.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah, as the habit.

[Ryan]

Yeah, as the habit. Yeah. Like, I had to start. I started the habit of taking my. My pills, like my vitamins and stuff with dinner, and now I take my vitamins. Hey. Because I just start. I. I started it. Let's freaking go.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

I recently heard a high five does something. Did you feel it?

[Ryan]

Yeah, I felt great after that.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Fantastic. Give someone a high five today.

[Ryan]

Yeah, man.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Back to you.

[Ryan]

But what I'm hearing you say is, like, stack your prayer habit. If you're getting in an elevator, have a specific prayer thing. If you're brushing your teeth. Who we praying for while we brush our teeth? Put it in your calendar if you have to. Praying for Jesse today. Who's. While I brush my teeth. That's beautiful. That's super beautiful. Where can people find you? Two questions. Where can people find you? Tell us about this book because it sounds incredible. And then I want to pray for you. So how can we be praying for you? Because we got thousands of people watching. How do we activate them to pray for you?

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yeah, I'll take it because I believe God will use it very powerfully. I even want to pray specific thing. Then I'm going to look for the answer once it apparently gets released. But I'm trusting you're going to pray now. The book, the book I most recently wrote was called Relaxed Subtitle Walking with the One who's Not Worried about a Thing that hits. Yeah. So what I did was took a very, very famous scripture. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your own understanding. Even now people are mouthing it with me, if not saying it out loud, but probably in a very boring monotone or you're really inspired because that was your life first. Lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will direct your path. So the book takes people on a journey of going to God, not yourself. And in the most practical, everyday spirituality type ways and man, by the end I will have hoped and this has been people's experience and so praise be to God that they will do more life with him instead of without him. So that's the book Relaxed and we'll.

[Ryan]

Put it in the show notes. So if guys go get relaxed.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Yes. And then prayer request. You know, I want to see the power of God. Yeah. And I want to see it in ways that are only explainable. I want to, I want to speak at a conference and the only thing that explains that is not a motivational speaker. It's God himself. I want to see people who have lived a certain way and do not have the belief and don't even have the faith to believe that something can change and then something changes. I want to see the power of God at work in the next season of my life. And I want to see it in undeniable ways. I want to see it. I want to pray specific prayers and I want to pray right now. Now.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

That when people would see, maybe it's the whole light thing, when people would see my good deeds or any effort that I put forth, that they would glorify God in response. And we wouldn't just perpetuate a Christianity that's focused on highlighting people, but rather the God of those people.

[Ryan]

Amen. Amen. Well, yes, let's pray now. I'm going to pray for that. And as you guys are listening, would you also join in prayer for Megan? For that, for encountering the power of.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

God in this next season and open your hands and you guys can join in on the prayer. This can be for you too.

[Ryan]

Yes, absolutely. And then would you mind closing us in prayer and praying. Why don't you pray that over them? So I'm gonna pray that over you. Whoever's listening or watching, let's pray that. Pray that with me over Megan. And then, Megan, if you could pray that over them. Jesus, you sent your disciples, you sent your followers out in boldness, and you told us that we would see greater things than you did.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Laura.

[Ryan]

Lord, you've put it on Megan's heart to see such insane, crazy, miraculous power, the kingdom of heaven shifting earth to the point where nobody would look at Megan and say, wow, Megan's anointed. But they would look at Megan and see Jesus and that the fruit would be so undeniable. The revival, the momentum, the. The brokenness restored, the sin dealt with and repented of the. The broken families put back together. The husbands leading the wives with. With fullness of. Of energy and love and stewardship over their families. God, would you see the miraculous in Megan's ministry and in her life? And Lord, I. I'm calling you at your word here. You said this. I didn't say this. You said that. And you say that anything we ask in your name and your will and your desires, it'll be done. So thank you, Lord, that you're going to answer this prayer.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

Jesus name, we'll let scripture guide this one. So, Father, we want to say yes to trusting you with all of our hearts. Lord, I pray over each person listening that right now you would bring words to what they're experiencing. Disappointment, shame, anger, resentment, fear, sadness, excitement, hope, anticipation, celebration. God, right now I pray that everyone listening to the sound of my voice would trust you. Not by just telling you they trust you, but by maybe even sharing ways that they don't can share it all. If you want things to change, tell them.

[Ryan]

Tell them.

[Megan Fate Marshman]

And God, I thank you that we don't have to lean on our understanding because we can lean on you as we're in you and you're in us. God, I don't understand it fully, but I do know that something has changed. And I pray, Lord, for some people who are listening in, who go, I don't know what that change is, Lord, that they would open up their heart to even more. More of you, less of them. And anything that they desire to understand. I pray even now they talk to you about that, their desire to understand. And Lord, I pray that you would miracul. Miraculously gift them with the ability to trust you with what they don't. And in all their ways, God, we want to find you. So, Lord, I pray right now that you would give us a new renewed desire, our definition of success today, to find you, to find God's stories, to find what you're up to in us and others and join in. And, God, you will therefore direct our path. You will make our path straight. So, Lord, I know our path is ultimately leading to you. So, God, we pray for your help to guide us. We pray for your help in our anger and your help and our disappointment. We don't want to do it alone. We don't want to do it alone. So thanks. Amen. Amen.

[Ryan]

It's amazing. Thank you for being with us today, guys. Thank you for watching the Jesus People podcast. We will see you next week.