B (2:37)

Right. And we're seeing that now with Nigeria.

A (2:39)

Yeah.

B (2:39)

The persecution in Nigeria has been happening for decades. Right.

A (2:43)

For sure.

B (2:43)

And now it feels like it's a new thing because there's been some voices that have platforms that have brought it to the forefront, but this has been something that's been ongoing. So for me, I was just meditating on that. I'm like, wait, wait, you're telling me for, like, how many years has this been happening?

A (2:58)

I mean, you go way back to 2010, even, like, early on. Like, there is the last 20, 25 years, we've seen thousands of believers killed for their faith and millions displaced, especially in northern Nigeria, in the middle belt of Nigeria. And as far as Global Christian Relief and other organizations, we've seen it firsthand, have been meeting the needs, have been talking to people. And so to see it get elevated right now is. Is really powerful. And it's. We're thankful for that as well, too. But it's also, like you said, it's not something that's new. It's been going on for a long time. And the church needs to connect to

B (3:30)

this issue, which is sobering. It's so sobering to be like, my brothers and sisters in the faith, in the spirit, who are. We are part of the same body with them. Like, Jesus uses that language. That's really strong language that, like, if. If my toe gets stubbed, it doesn't matter that it's a small body part. Like, if it's hurting, I. I'm feeling it, you know, and I can't focus on anything else. And yet I feel like we've been so focused on other things. And to me, where I just learned about this months ago, like, a few months ago, I learned that thousands of Christians, like 7,000 Christians. Is that right? 7,000 Christians killed in the last year?

A (4:06)

Yeah. In Nigeria, it's. And I think some of those numbers, it's hard sometimes to verify, but we know that there have been thousands, like, every year on average. For the last number of years, it's been three to 4,000. So it's. It is the most dangerous place to be a Christian today in the world. And you combine all the other martyrs in other countries together, and they don't equal Nigeria.

B (4:26)

Wow. So what do we do?

A (4:28)

Yeah, it's. First thing is this like in. Is to connect to the stories and to pray for our brothers and sisters there. And I think that part of what we're trying to do is shrink the distance, is that Nigeria can feel like it's so far away, that what's happening there feels so distant, doesn't feel like it impacts us. And yet we know that these stories, like anything that happens in the body of Christ impacts. You said the full body. And so I think again, like, the first step to me is like, engage the news, engage our website and engage other websites who are organizations who are meeting the needs of those who in Nigeria and sharing the stories. But I've had the chance to sit with believers in Nigeria and have just been blown away with what they've experienced. I mean, it's rattled my own faith, encouraged my own faith. Can I give you a story briefly, please. So there's a story of a lady named Suzanne who was displaced in a village, I mean, from Boko Haram. And Boko Haram basically means Western education is forbidden. It's a radical Islamist group that's bent, hell bent on just wiping out the Christian community in northern Nigeria, taking over the land, abducting the women, put many of them become sex slaves to the Boko Haram fighters. We've talked to those as well. But she left and fled and her father was. Was back, stayed back. And so after some time, she went back to go see her father and got caught by the Boko Haram extremists. They shot her father in front, held a gun to her head, and basically said, hey, choose. Do you. Will you follow Islam or will you deny Christianity, or do you want to. Do you want to die right now? And she cried out to Jesus right there, refused to. To deny Jesus and just was crying out. And they had a standstill for a while, and she was just going, I'm not going to budge. I'm not going to deny Jesus. And they ended up shooting her. And she falls down, the fighters leave, the villagers come pick her up, pick her father up, put them in a. In a cart to take them to. To burial. And along the way, she feels in her side, kind of a thorn, and she screams out. And she survived. And so what happened was they shut between her temples. She lost her eyesight. And there's a lot of other parts to her story. Some really tough parts. But she gets rushed to the hospital, comes back, and today I've met with her a number of times, and when I ask her, I mean, what this has done to her faith, she's just like, that God is so good. I'm so thankful. She's like, I've forgiven my enemies, I've forgiven my killers. In fact, if I see them today, I'd invite them in, I'd give them food, I'd give them money for the ride back. I'd tell them, they didn't know what they were doing. They need to know Jesus. And she just again, like, has this radiation of joy. And yet she's lost so much and for her faith. But I think that's the quintessential piece of, like, this is someone who is willing to die for Jesus, has suffered along with Jesus. There's something intrinsic, intrinsically beautiful about that that gives us a joy that's much deeper than all the comforts that you and I have today. And that's the biggest reality that we see in the field.

B (7:18)

Right? Wow. Yeah. Well. And when this podcast airs, I would have already come back from Nigeria. So, yeah, going in a few weeks to Nigeria.

A (7:32)

I can't wait for you to have the opportunity to meet with believers, your brothers and sisters there. It's going to be powerful.

B (7:37)

Yeah, man, that's gonna be, that's gonna be crazy. What an honor. So you, you witness these things, you talk to these people. What has that done for your faith personally?

A (7:48)

Yeah, it's, it's, I would say it this way, like we, I, I grew up in a Christian home. I went into ministry, you know, after seminary and had a, you know, a good faith. But I, I think there was always something, like, I wrestled after I kind of transitioned out of full time ministry, wrestle with my faith a little bit. And I didn't walk away from God whatsoever. But I definitely had some doubts. And I kind of like looked at the American church with some skepticism and, and it was really interesting because God used the stories of the persecuted to revive my faith. So when I started with GCR and met with hundreds of believers, I had no idea that God would take, you mean, take me around the world to meet these believers, to hear their stories, to really radically, like, revive my faith. And I think it's a microcosm of what God can do, because I do think it's like, it's in the DNA of every believer to care for the suffering body of Christ. So when you step into that, I truly believe it unlocks Something in your faith that's a different, like, experience of, like, this is what's real today. Because I feel like there's so much of a facade around us. And when we see those stories and connect with them and pray with them, I feel like, again, it uniquely gives us a pathway into the global church of what God is doing. And it's kind of that. The John 17 passage where Jesus is saying, I pray that they would all become one as you and as I'm one with the Father. And it's like, not just for the people he was talking to, but for those who would come after for us. And I feel like this sense of when we. We connect together with the global body of Christ in unity to lift up Jesus, something powerful happens that can change our faith. Wow.

B (9:21)

You know what's crazy about that? I was driving home from dropping my son off at school today, and I asked the Lord, what do you want me to read? And he said, John 17. John 17. And that, that. That verse, like, I. I wish that you would be one as we are one. And I was just like, whoa. Of all the things Jesus could have prayed for, he's praying for us because he's. He's. He's not just talking to his disciples. He's like, there will be some who will come after you that never saw me.

A (9:48)

Yeah.

B (9:48)

And my prayer for them is that they would be one. And I'm like, that's crazy that Jesus prays for us, number one. And number two, the thing he chooses to praise, that we would be unified. But I didn't put together. I just thought, you know, like. Like me and Richard or me and Brian, you know, like, I thought that's what it was talking about, but I think it's. What you're saying is his desire for us is to be one with the body.

A (10:11)

Yeah.

B (10:12)

Particularly those that are in situations that are so extreme, in so much pain, so much persecution, that he would have been going to them, because that's who Jesus. Those were his priority people, was the people who were struggling. So is that kind of what you're saying is, like.

A (10:29)

It is, yeah. And I think there's, like you said, like, there's a. Sometimes we have this notion that oneness is just like an agreement with the people that we go to a local body with. But I do think what Jesus is saying is much bigger than that. It's pulling together all Jesus people under the name of Jesus to point to the glory of God together. And that also means to help and to serve one another, to feel one another's pain to be with each other in our suffering. In fact, I look at Matthew 25, and it's like this quintessential passage. I mean, in the Olivet discourse, where Jesus is saying, I mean, what you've done for the least of these brothers, you've done for me. And I really do feel like that passage is talking about the persecuted church. Whoa. And it's. It's. It's brothers there. So it's a term that's always used for others in the body of Christ. And so when you talk about the least of those, those who are naked, those who need clothes, those who need food, I do feel like that God's going to judge the nations on how they treated the suffering body. And so for us to be able to have the opportunity to step into that again, like, I feel like it's something that I want to raise from the rooftops, that this can change our faith. This can change the American church. This can do so much for us if we can see that. Obey it, step into it, and be with our brothers and sisters when they're isolated, cut off, and alone.

B (11:43)

Whoa. So your interpretation of what I believe is maybe the most scary passage in all of Scripture, which is, whatever you did, or. Or when we stand before him one day, he'll say, depart from me. I never knew you.

A (11:57)

Yeah.

B (11:58)

For I was hungry and you didn't feed me. I was in prison. He didn't visit me. You think that's talking about the persecuted church?

A (12:03)

I do. I believe it is. I believe it's talking about our brothers and sisters. It's pretty clear in there that he's using language that's inclusive about the church and that he's also describing even those who are suffering and those who we have an opportunity to meet those needs. So, again, that doesn't negate the fact that we still should love in general, should love everyone and care for those in need. But I believe that specific passage is talking about the persecuted church and our opportunity to step into them. And again, that's why I feel like it's not just a nice to have. You mean, like, let me think about my persecuted family. It's. It's a drive for God that he cares deeply about, for us to come along to our suffering brothers and sisters, to care for them, let them know they're not alone, does something unique to our faith, does something powerful for the kingdom. But again, it's. It's. It's a call to obedience as well.

B (12:46)

Wow. So give us a snapshot of the persecuted church right now in the world. If someone's listening right now and they're like, I get it, I get it. If I don't have a robust heart and if I don't have a robust cadence of taking care of the least of these brothers, the persecuted church in the world, then I'm missing the heart of Christ. What is happening in the world right now with persecuted Christians and how can we come to their aid?

A (13:09)

Yeah. And I would say this first. It's really important, and this is probably the biggest step is just to understand that our experience as, as Christians and our experience of the church here in the US is not the dominant and majority experience of those worldwide.

B (13:23)

Yeah.

A (13:23)

And so it's really.

B (13:24)

Well, doesn't revolve around.

A (13:25)

Yeah, so. Yeah, because the world doesn't revolve around us. And it's, but it's, it's. We say that and I joke, but there's also the sense. It's really hard to get out of that.

B (13:33)

Yeah.

A (13:33)

Because unless you have experiences or immerse yourself in stories and relationships and other contexts, it's, this is what we have. Like, this is the context we know. So there's not something wrong with that. But there's an invitation to say, like, it is much big, bigger. Like what God is doing around the world is not just what God is doing here, he cares about here, but it's so much bigger. And so I know in the open doors research, there's 380 million Christians who experience extreme persecution for their faith around the world.

B (14:00)

That's more than America.

A (14:01)

So. Yeah, and it's, it's basically one in eight Christians who experience this. And it's, when we say extreme, it's not just like somebody giving you a snide look or somebody saying, oh, I don't, I don't like you, or calling you a name. But it's like, it's displacement, it's mob beatings, it's loss of jobs, it's loss of homes, it's imprisonment, it's arrest, it's harassment, it's sexual harassment. All these different pieces because of the name of Jesus. So you have this picture, if you take, you mean a look at the map, and there's just like sub Saharan Africa is, has an influx of radical extremism that's going across many nations, including Nigeria. You have North Africa. You mean in places like Egypt, where it's just extremely like, you are discriminated against. You're a very small minority of faith. And oftentimes people have to Live and navigate in that context and be very careful because they could get arrested, they could get ostracized, but they're often not getting jobs that are higher up because of their faith. But then you dig into places like Pakistan where less than 2% of the population is Christian and the majority of that population is impoverished, so they're discriminated against in the brick kilns. And we do a lot of work in the brick kilns. It's one of the things that's dear to my heart going back there in a couple of weeks as well too. But we're working with Christian communities to free them from the bonded brick kiln slavery and, and to break the generational cycles of persecution, to, to free them, give them income generating projects, provide education for the children so that we can lift up the Christian community in Pakistan that they can have a voice for themselves and move out from under this oppression of discrimination and persecution in India. It's, it's, it's nationalism, Hindu nationalism, where it makes it really difficult for anybody to, to leave the faith, the Hindu faith or their, the faith of their village. And when they do that, oftentime they're seen as a curse. And so something happens in the village, the Christians are blamed, they're beaten, they're ostracized. And again, I met with believers just a short time ago that were from Chattisgar. You'll hear that a lot of persecution goes on there. It's in like central, central India. So it's, it's one of the states in India. So India has a number of states and Chattisgar is one of the, the deepest with persecution because it's a very rural area and whenever anybody kind of leaves and does something different, they're often attacks. And so I spent time with nine, some pastors, some leaders in the church there that had just been beaten. And we went to a safe place, we pulled them out and had to discreetly pull them out of Chaska because even leaving or us coming could put them at more risk. And we went into a safe place and heard their stories. But the first night we were there and they still had scars on their face from the beatings. It just happened weeks before and they just simultaneously broke out in worship and just listening to their voices and listening to their stories of like their, the honor that they felt to suffer for the name of Jesus is just incredibly moving. So powerful. Reminds us of what again, like what the purpose of our lives here is really about. It strips away everything so quickly. But again, like, so you could go to places again, like in the Middle east as well. It's just like, there's a lot of really difficult, like both dictatorial, Dictatorial persecution. China, I mean, they're trying to control and squash the church. And obviously Saudi Arabia, it's almost impossible to be above. Above ground, to be a bold believer. Same way with Afghanistan. It's an underground church. North Korea, underground church. There's so many people around the world today who are brothers and sisters, just like you and me, who don't have the freedom sometimes even to have a Bible. But most of the times, or a lot of the times, not to be able to practice their faith publicly.

B (17:48)

You just listed, like, more than half the world.

A (17:51)

Yeah.

B (17:52)

That China and India alone.

A (17:54)

Yeah. Two most populous countries in the world.

B (17:57)

That's insane. And to be honest with you, before I started, you know, talking with Global Christian Relief and learning more, I didn't really think about the persecuted church that often. I thought about persecution as an. Oh, they're censoring us on TikTok, you know, like, which.

A (18:13)

Yeah.

B (18:13)

I don't want to minimize.

A (18:14)

Yeah.

B (18:15)

That type of thing. But, you know, in, in America, we just had Charlie Kirk be assassinated and martyred. What did you make of that? As someone who's watching this daily? Who's. What are. Were you, like, okay, maybe the church will wake up to this now?

A (18:32)

Or what. What.

B (18:33)

What kind of went on your mind?

A (18:35)

Yeah, yeah, it's a. It's a complicated. Yeah, complicated topic. But I would say this, like, I feel like ideas are dangerous, and whenever there is the. The suppression or oppression of the freedom of ideas or freedom of religion that we know the breakdown of a society is not far away. Whoa. And so I feel like that's where we see this, like this, this. We herald free speech, but we know that we're in such a contentious society that I do feel like God. Any. Anything. There's a spiritual battle by far. And so there's strongholds, there's places. You mean that we see that across the world. And today in America, I do feel like there's a sense of, like, we're in contention for that. But I also think there's a. There's a sense of, like, you know, we experience great comfort here. And so I think there's going to be soon a call for the church to go. Like, are we going to be distinct enough to be different from culture and feel, I mean, that pressure from. From the world, you mean? And no. And again, like, Jesus talks about, like, they hated me and they're going to hate you. In fact, was the quote, one of the pastors from the, the Zion Church in China where they just had arrest. It told me like that's what they were grabbing onto, that passage, that they hated Jesus, they're going to hate us. Don't be surprised by this persecution and these arrests. And I feel like that's the sense of like we, we see that anybody who desires to live a godly life is going to find persecution. And I think there's different levels, of course, in right now. And you compare it from the US to the global human church and it's like we're, we're so free. But I do feel like there's probably going to time where we have to decide and become more distinct and burn down the idols and experience that, that same kind of tension there. And that will call us to say, are we going to walk with Jesus or are we going to pursue our comfort and try to protect it?

B (20:29)

Amen. Amen. And I think a lot of that comes back to looking at our brothers and sisters who have literally lost it all.

A (20:35)

Yeah.

B (20:35)

Who have lost it all to follow Jesus.

A (20:37)

Yeah. And I want to say this too. I think this is an important piece, is that I was a pastor and I was not looking at the persecuted church. I would see things come through every once in a while, but I was also, I almost like held it at arm's length.

B (20:49)

Yeah.

A (20:49)

And I.

B (20:50)

And I was too hard to look at.

A (20:51)

Yeah. Yeah. Because I. Because my preconceived notion was like, A, it's going to be so dark. Like I don't want to jump into murders and killing. Like, that's sounds horrible. B, I might feel worse about my faith because I feel like I'm going to do more. And so it's like, it's easy to keep it at arm's distance. But the surprising factor was that when I started to engage the persecuted church, there are heavier parts to that and I think there's. We need to be careful about those because those. Sometimes our soul isn't ready to handle that. The depth of that. But the surprising aspect was like, I've had more joy, I've laughed more with persecuted Christians, had more meals and tea. And just like the experience was not what I expected it to be. And I do think that that's the surprising element is when you connect to the persecuted, it's not guilt driven. It's not like shameful, it's not dark. It shows us some of the brightest spots in the kingdom of the world today.

B (21:41)

Amen. Amen Amen. Yeah. And I think if a lot of us, you know, it's like that, that quote more gets caught than taught when. When you're, you know, trying to raise up godly children, just telling them to read their Bible is not as powerful as reading your Bible in front of them, you know, and so to be able to hang out with these heroes of the faith that have lost everything, that are being shot for their faith, that are being killed, that are having, you know, everything stripped from them, that are being displaced from their homes, and then to go back home and live the way you. You were living before, it's just like that. It just doesn't make sense. It's like, how can you not be changed by something like that? And what I'm hearing you say is the fruit of that. The fruit of actually finding the treasure hidden in the field because the persecuted church showed it to you. They're like all this other fluff. It doesn't matter, you know, sell it all. Because what we've found, to rejoice, like that woman in Nigeria who shot between the eyes and is now rejoicing, like, I want to forgive them. If I see them again, I'd like to have a meal with them. Yeah, like that. That can only happen by someone who has communed deeply with Jesus through suffering.

A (22:47)

Yeah. And I think in many ways someone else said this, and I really love it, is that the. The persecuted church can become our spiritual mentors. And so there's a sense of like, you know, they're like, we're praying and supporting and asking people to give and to be generous so that we can support the kingdom of God in these very difficult and dangerous places. But the flip side of that is we learn so much from their faith and we need them. You mean, to learn from. And there's a sense too, that it's. It's harder to find those pathways. And we're hoping to provide a place where people can easily engage, connect to stories, understand what's going on, learn how to pray and all those things. But you have to be dedicated to do that, to find those stories, stay connected with it, make it a part of your everyday prayer life. And I do think there's a sense of, like, it radically changes our own faith. And so that's where I feel like that mutual again, that John 17 unity passage of us connecting together is not. It's not just about us giving our resources, but it's about us strengthening the body of Christ on both sides of the. Of the world.

B (23:47)

Amen. Amen. How can we be praying for each country? So, like, if you were to. If you were to take maybe the top four persecuted countries, what should we be praying for?

A (23:57)

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, as you talk about the. The top, I mean, there's, again, North Korea is typically at the top. Afghanistan is typically at the top. You know, Libya, Somalia, Eritrea, those are all, like, incredibly difficult and dangerous places to follow Jesus today. And, And I think the, The. The largest prayers that I would say is just asking God to protect the existing believers in those places. So North Korea, for example, we know there is an underground church that's there right now. I mean, that is practicing their faith in a very dangerous setting. And the church is there. They're like. And I've met with a number of North Korean believers who have escaped. You mean, who've been in prison and escaped and hearing from them just how risky it is because the whole culture is built around control by the leaders. And they even, like, they have a time of community confession where they tell on each other for things that they've done. Like, it's a really suspicious, very difficult culture. And so I think protection number one for those believers. And again, Afghanistan, the same, like this underground church. Of those who've left Islam to follow Jesus, those are some of the most dangerous. You mean, situations that we've. We've seen around the world. So protection, I think we want to pray for. For their resilience, because as we know too, like you and I, if we face like, a strong suffering or we can be easily discouraged. And so I think there's many people that are isolated, many believers who are isolated right now. They're. They're experiencing great comfort from God, but they need to. To be prayed for and to have courage and resilience in their faith to make it through this season. Yeah, so protection, resilience, and I think just that God would give the church more freedom in these areas, that he would even just give them a little bit more elbow room to. To experience and to grow and to. To share and to practice their faith. And, and again, it's extremely difficult. And I would say, like, I was in Syria just a couple weeks ago, meeting with Pastor Boot or Pastor Boutros, who was the pastor of Mar Elias Church just outside of Damascus. In this past June, there was a suicide bombing and. And killed over 25. Around 25 believers and injured 60. And I got to sit with many of those families who'd lost loved ones and. And their main prayer request across the board was just for protection. They feel vulnerable. They don't know if this new regime of government is going to be much worse for them. But all they have is this experience. Like they know they haven't been protected and they know anytime they share the, the, the notion of, like they hear loud bangs and many of them will run to a corner, like, just because they don't know if this is this another wave of extremism coming to, to get them. And so it's hard to think through, like living in that context. And you and I, you go to worship and don't have another thought. But I will say, sitting in Mar Elias Church on the spot where that suicide bomb was detonated and talking and praying with the believers there, it's just something that reminds me there, you know, many of our brothers and sisters need great courage, I mean, to go and to practice their faith. And we want to see that happen as well. So I'd say those are some of the main pieces. And I would say on our end, I would encourage us to pray for a wave of generosity and prayer. Because when we do talk to believers in many of these places, their number one thing is they could feel the prayer of the global church. And it means so much for them to know that the global church knows what's happening, cares deeply, and is praying alongside them. Like that is the most powerful weapon that we have that we often, I often, I mean, fail to use.

B (27:23)

I want to take a quick break and I want to tell you about a ministry that my family personally supports. It's called Global Christian Relief. And you may not know this, but there are more persecuted Christians around the world than ever before. And Global Christian Relief sends medical aid. They send Bibles to persecuted countries that don't have access to them. They're providing shelter. They're taking care of the least of these in the name of Jesus. And if you want to support them, you can click the link in the show notes. You can read stories of what God's doing in the persecuted church. And know this. Jesus says that what you've done for the least of these, you've done for him. But also that when we love each other as a body of Christ, the rest of the world will see him. So go check it out. This might seem like an odd question for this time, but the thing that came to mind was like, why would God allow that to happen? Why would, why would God allow these Christians in Nigeria to be be slaughtered? Why would God allow these pastors to be abducted in China? As you've watched this play out, have you had Any thoughts about that?

A (28:26)

I've had lots of thoughts about that, Ryan and I, I often ask the believers we meet with that same question because I'm always curious. And I think you've gotten lots of different answers. I think the, the biggest one is this is that. Again, I, I would say this is, for me, I think it's. It's hard to pin down. We don't. We don't know the mind of God. And so these are things that I look at, especially when it deals with, with children. Like, there's, There's. I would say this. Like, I'm pretty strong. God's given me, like, a good kind of strong mentality to deal with these stories. But when it hits children, like, I'm just like, why? Like what? Like, it just breaks my heart. Like, I've. Yeah, there's so many stories like that, too. And I get emotional just even thinking about them because it's so hard. And I've asked those questions, like, why God? Like this? Or why allow this, rather. And I, and I do think there's a sense of, like, there. We won't know. God's ways are higher than our ways, for sure. But every, in every instance, God is using what. What Satan means for evil, for good. And so I don't. I don't have the clear theological answer beyond the fact that we live in a sinful world, that God will redeem these things at the end, and that God is doing powerful work. And whatever Satan is using for persecution to destroy the church, God uses it to raise it back. And I'll use a story of a young woman, young mother that I met in Indonesia. And a number of years ago, there was a concentrated coordinated effort of bombings across a number of Christian churches and hotels. And this young mother lost two of her boys. And I met with her in her home, talked with her, and I'm just in tears, listening and hearing. And then she said, hey, do you want to go back to the spot where I lost my boys? And I. Going into this, I was like, I'm not going to ask her to go back to the church. I don't want to do that. It's going to. I know it'll be too emotional, but she volunteered it. And I said, if that is going to be helpful for your story, let's do that. And so we go to her church, we stand outside, and she says, this is the spot that I lost my boys. And I just asked her, what. What gives you the courage to stand here? I mean, and remember your boys? And she Very clearly said, like, I don't want to the extremists to win and to put fear into my heart. And she said, I feel like this is the best I can do. To not be overcome by evil, but to overcome evil with good is to remember my sons and the sacrifice they made and to remember my savior in this spot and not let the terrorist win. And so I think it's that type of faith and it's that type of story that comes out of these devastating incidents of suffering and violence that seem to have no reason, but God uses them in such a powerful way to show us that he is real, his promises are real, he can be trusted, and his church will not be defeated.

B (31:23)

Amen. So beautiful. Yeah, I think that's to your point, like, we have a lot to learn from these people because to be able to say that after you've lost your two sons is. Is just different, you know, like, that's, that's. It's pretty miraculous to be able to say something like that. And to that end of God taking what was intended for evil and using it for good, we're seeing a wave of Muslims getting dreams and visions. What's been your experience walking through that with. With a lot of these Muslim countries?

A (32:03)

Yeah, I. I'd say that there's a quiet hidden movement of God amongst the Muslim world right now that is so incredible and so powerful. And it's. It's one of those things that, like, we don't see it because it's so risky. It's so. I mean, like. And I've met with many Muslim background believers, people who've. Who grew up in Islam and who left Islam because they found Jesus. And again, many times it's been dreams and visions. So I'll tell you one story. This past year, I met with a young woman in the Middle East. I won't name the country because it's. Her situation is really sensitive. But I got to sit in a room with her with many other Muslim background believers to hear their stories. And her story was she had a dream of a man in white. And the man in white said, I'm the way, the truth and the life. And she said, I had no idea who this was, no idea what these words meant. And so she would just like, you know, was trying to figure it out, was asking people they didn't know, then found out, like, looked it up and found out these verses were from Jesus.

B (33:03)

Yeah.

A (33:03)

And she's like, this was the man of my dreams. And. And I've got to find out More. And so through a number of circumstances she gets connected to somebody who can tell her the gospel and she's like, this is it. And she leaves Islam that she had always felt like there was a gap. She didn't feel like that was, there was, that was the thing that kind of filled the hole in her heart. Sees Jesus, hears Jesus, gives her life to him, but she lives in an extremist home. And so they're, they're militant, I mean Muslims. And so she cannot share her faith. She drives hours for her to get discipled. And the thing that meant so much for her was like this secret pat, this pastor in this secret community says takes these believers out to this, this place that's remote and gives her and baptizes her. And she's like, this was like the best moment in my life was to be baptized and identify with Jesus. And then she drives back, puts on you, I mean all of the garb again, goes back in there and does the Muslim prayers with her family and others and has to. And it's in that world of like, how do I, you mean like she's a young woman who's connected to her family unless she totally leaves. But if they find out about her faith, they, they could kick her out, they could kill her. We just don't know. And, but that is happening, that's just like a small story like that is happening across the Muslim world. And we have an opportunity again right now like as Global Christian Relief, we're stepping into a multi year campaign to help support the Muslim, the, the movement of the church in the Muslim world today. And, and again that's not against Muslims, but it's, it's trying to, to lift up the truth and give those who are following Christ an opportunity to connect with networks of believers and to, to guide them with safety and give them safe spaces to worship. And in some ways, sometimes it's so, the situation so sensitive we have to pull them out and, and pull them to another country as well too. But I would say it's one of the amazing, one of the most amazing things is see what God is doing across the Muslim world. And again like where he doesn't have missionaries, he's using dreams, he's using visions. And we're seeing that time and time again and very similar in, in India we're seeing healings. Like God uses healings. Like I, I have so many testimonies where I'm like, they, I mean the, they had a stomach issue for their son and he was sick and they thought he was going to die. And they have all of the Hindu leaders come and pray. Nothing works. And some Christian bumps into him and says, well, you, you could bring him to my church possibly, if you want to. That's last resort. They take him to church, he's healed, and they hear the gospel, give their life to Christ, and it's just powerful moment. But then again, that's when the persecution also begins.

B (35:30)

Wow. Why don't you think we see the, the miracles in America that we're seeing overseas right now?

A (35:36)

Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's a really hard one. Like, I, I wrestle with this part of, like, we don't experience the persecutions, we don't see the same movements of God. And I think some of those are tied together. I think there's a sense of, like, when, when persecution is, is intense, when there's opposition, when there's distinction, then we see God work in some of these ways that are beyond the physical that we would expect. And in some of those ways, I feel like, again, I'm praying, and this is, I really firmly believe this conviction that God is going to use the stories of the persecuted church as a major factor in the revival of the U.S. church today. And, and I feel like that's the sense of, like, calling us back to this distinctiveness, calling us back to, to a greater love and sacrifice in our society. And I feel like those are the things that are like, the, the foundations for God to work. You mean, in, in ways that go beyond the physical. And so I think in some ways, because of our comfort, because of our resources, we in some ways don't need God.

B (36:34)

Right.

A (36:35)

And so there's a sense of, like, are we praying the same prayers? Do we have the same faith? You know, and that's, it's, it's hard because, again, like, I love the church. Like, so this isn't like a directive, like, there's churches who are doing great things, but I still feel like in some ways we flow easier with culture and society than in other places. And that stream brings comfort, and that stream also brings a lack of need sometimes. And that, I think, is what subtracts that, that physical presence of powerful miracles.

B (37:06)

Yeah, I was, I was praying the other morning, and I was asking the Lord, I was like, lord, like, I don't feel like I've heard your voice that clearly in a while. And I heard him say, go to Psalm 91. I was like, okay, so I open up to Psalm 91, and it says, he who dwells in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. And I was like, there it is. I'd never heard that translation before. He who dwells in the secret place.

A (37:36)

Yeah.

B (37:37)

So if you're not going to the secret place, then you're not going to hear from Him. And then you shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. That's. It's. It's this picture of him covering you with his wings, protecting you.

A (37:47)

Yeah.

B (37:48)

Like a mother hen longs to cover her chicks. Right. And so I think you hear from the Lord, 1, when. When you draw near to him, he draws near to you. Number two, when you need his protection, when you're in a persecuted country where there's no other way to hear from him other than getting a dream, getting a vision, getting a word from Him. He comes through because he's our loving Father.

A (38:10)

Yeah.

B (38:10)

And so I think the currency of the kingdom of God is desperation, is faith in the middle of these hard times. In fact, every time you see Jesus doing a miracle, there's two things in. In. In the circumstances. One, there's a completely hopeless sit. There's deep faith.

A (38:26)

Yeah.

B (38:27)

And I think that so often in America, we just lack these circumstances of desperation because we already have. We have an escape valve. It's like, okay, well, I guess I can just go numb out with this food or this alcohol or this Netflix show or just kind of like, numb him. But he's saying, when you go to the secret place, when you dwell with me under the shadow of the Almighty, under my protection, that's when I show up.

A (38:49)

Yeah. No, it's powerful, and I do believe it. And I think there's a sense of, like, I'm praying that again, the U.S. church, that we. That myself, that all of us would see this and again, drive us deeper into a love and commitment and obedience for God apart from all of our comfort, all of our resources. And that God would work in a powerful way here and again, that we would learn, I mean, from a persecuted family. One of the things that I love, that I remember and think about that's changed the way I think about my faith, too, is that seeing these believers, and many times it's. There's spirit, there's such humility that they have. So I'll give you an example, like meeting with believers in Egypt who have had family members who've been martyred. And then I'm digging into them, and I asked them, like, what. What's the verse that's really been meaningful to you? Like, what's really in the response was like, I don't know how to read. I've just heard the gospel and I've given my life to God. And I listened to the preacher, but the words, I know they're true even though I can't read. And so I've really captured like across the world, there's believers who have just heard the word of God who don't have the ability or access to scripture. Many times we're giving them audio Bibles and that changes it as well too. But there's believer, like I used to think that in the way that I was a youth pastor for many years too and would think like, hey, what the discipleship plan is like, let's get more information, let's get more information, let's get more information. Let's get knowledge. And in the persecuted church, it's a life transformation, you know, I mean, that believes us more than anything. And they can grow. Obviously knowledge is important, but oftentimes it's that, that initial heart change that drives the growth. And so sometimes I think that's what we might miss is that we try to over acknowledge, you mean our faith when we need to have like a real raw connection with God that will drive us deeper into his kingdom. Yeah.

B (40:36)

It's not about getting up and doing the quiet time for this amount of time and praying for this long. It's just saying, lord, I just need you. That hard posture of just desperation like, lord, I just want to connect. And God's meeting people in dreams and visions and audio Bibles. Tell me, tell me more about what Global Christian Relief is doing. I know you're smuggling Bibles, audio Bibles. You're taking care of the needs of the persecuted church. You're clothing them, feeding them, sheltering them, rescuing them. Tell us more what you guys are doing.

A (41:03)

Yeah, so there's, I mean, Bibles are critical. So we have many believers across the, the world today who don't have access. And it could be either because their country, you mean, is a really, it's a struggle to get access. So you talk about Iran and it's actually illegal to have a Bible in the Farsi language.

B (41:19)

Yeah.

A (41:20)

And so that's, it's contraband. I mean, and so we're working with really, I mean, close partners around the world to try to get Bibles into places like that, to the underground church so that they can see the promises of God themselves in other places. Again, it's, it's just Return from Chad in the spring. I mean, it's medium believers in These villages who are persecuted and don't have a Bible, can't read and bring audio Bibles to them in their language and let's let them click that in their solar driven so they're not like they're easy to use and easier to keep. And letting them hear the word of God, like just to see the smile on their face, like this is incredible. And been in Nepal in the same way and met with believers and given them the word of God and just how they've shared, like they can't stop. They just play it all the time. They play it for the neighbors. They love it. You know, I mean, so it's Bible distribution is a key part of it. It's discipleship and training. It's, it's income generation emergency relief when there's attacks in places again like India and Pakistan and other places like that. And then, then it's definitely stepping in with what's needed most in specific context. So we're working with leaders on the ground in each area to find out what's the need for the church, what's going to make the difference. And, and our prayer is to empower the persecuted church so they can be a life light for the gospel in their community. So our main goal is not to pull them to safety or get them out of that, it's to help them withstand the persecution as a light to be a gospel. Because in many of these places they are the last line of defense for the gospel to share that if they don't stay there, who will hear in places like Iraq and Syria where the church has just been whittled down, whittled down and on the verge of extinction? How do we empower them to stay as a voice for the gospel in that region? And that's our passion. And again, our kind of our vision is that there'd be no Christian who experiences persecution, that feels isolated, alone, that everyone would know that the body of Christ is standing with them. And we feel like that makes such a huge impact in Kingdom Difference.

B (43:17)

Yeah, guys, I'd encourage you right now we're going to put a link in the show. Notes, please, whatever you can give this, this organization is doing what Jesus called us to do, which is whatever you've done for the least of these brothers, this is in our body, this is our family. Jesus is talking about, you've done for me. So if you want to bless Jesus today, click that link. Send Bible, send aids, send relief, send trauma counseling to some of these, these people, these, some of these brothers. And know that man like if our toe is hurting, if our leg is hurting, we should be feeling that. And right now it's hurting. Right now they're being killed, they're being martyred, they're being persecuted, they're being displaced and global Christian rel. Doing it better than anyone I've seen. And so I'm just really grateful for your ministry. What, what else, what else have you witnessed? What else would you want to share with the American church that, that maybe we need to hear?

A (44:16)

Yeah, I, I think it's, and I would say this man, I appreciate, you appreciate the voice that you've given using your, your influence and voice on behalf of the persecuted. I do feel like we were talking about this earlier, but I do feel like there's going to, when we get to eternity, like we're going to hear some amazing stories of, from believers around the world that we would have never known is happening. They're not getting a platform, they're not, you mean getting viral videos. They're not writing books or doing sermon series. They were in quiet places where the gospel is contested and they are the heroes of faith. And we're going to hear more about that. And so, but we have the ability to now step into those stories. And I think there's an aspect human scripture it talks about. You mean treating those who are in prison for the faith as if you were in prison with them? Yes. And I think there's a sense of today like getting back to that piece of like sitting. I mean we obviously live in a culture that we are, I mean, so our, we're so easily distracted. But sitting in that space like we were with them in prison, like again, our brothers and sisters in China. There's 20 detained from Zion Church. They could, you know, the pastor Ezra, he could face up to seven years because the churches or the, the CCP is trying to, to control the church and because these house churches don't want to be under control of the government, they're trying to crush them. And not only their physical presence, but now digital presence, not allowing them to preach online or share things online. And so that's what they were arrested for. And so it's staying with that story and thinking and sitting with them in our own minds and through our own prayers as if we were in that Chinese prison with them. And I feel like that's the thing is like it's not just we want it, we. I, I want everyone to pray and to have the opportunity to give, to be generous to the persecuted church. But I think the, the, the Biggest step too is to step in, to just get awareness and to care deeply and have your heart changed for what God is doing around the world. Because it's going to change your faith and it's going to impact the kingdom and then your generosity is going to flow out of that when you start that process. So encourage you to read the stories. Like even looking at the news through the lens, the global news through the lens of our persecuted family, what is, what is this impact going to or what is this news story going to someone in Somalia, to someone in Eritrea, to someone in Saudi Arabia? And how do I think and pray through the church that way? And I do believe that if you make prayer for the, the global persecuted church a part of your everyday you routine and rhythm of prayer, it's going to change your life. It definitely is.

B (46:42)

Yeah. Yeah. I'd encourage you guys to maybe put a calendar reminder. Do it for a month. Just set the rhythm. You know, it takes 21 days to create a habit. Just do it for a month, month. Every single morning or every single evening or lunch or wherever. Just put something in there to pray for the persecuted church. Prayer is powerful. We've got the, the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted church coming up November 2nd.

A (47:04)

Yeah.

B (47:05)

Excited for that great opportunity. Praying and fast in that day and, and then obviously going to Nigeria. It's going to be amazing. Gonna be awesome. I'm sure it's gonna be heart wrenching at times, but I'm so grateful for your ministry. I'm so grateful for what you do. Very humbled, very honored to get to be one of the voices championing global Christian relief and the work you guys are doing.

A (47:27)

I'm so thankful for you, man. Yeah, it's an incredible partnership and I think the, the biggest thing too is like, just like us just hanging out and talking like this is like these believers around the world are just like us. Like, they're hanging out, they have families, they're taking care of their kids, they're you know, having coffee or tea in the morning and they're, they love to laugh, love music. So it's like this sense of like they're not different and we, we, we're not lifting them up to say like they're, they're perfect, but they are just like us and they're going through some extreme circumstances and proving out the gospel. And it's a, it's a, it's a beautiful thing. And that's where I feel like the whole sense of like it can be pretty intense to talk about this stuff, but there is a great joy to it. Like, there's like, you're, you step into this and it's not going to be something where you feel worse. You're going to have your faith driven deeper. And that's the kind of joy that comes to the gospel that doesn't come with things. You know, it doesn't come with material things, but comes with something deep and unmovable. And that's what I would love for every listener this podcast to have.

B (48:23)

Totally. Yeah. We. We've got good friends, Marzi Marzade and Mariam Rosten Por. They were imprisoned in Iran for passing out. They passed out like 30,000 Bibles in the city of Tehran and they were put in prison and they were set to be executed. And the executioner kept having dreams that their God would come to them and say, you can't touch those women. And the craziest thing about being friends with these heroes of the faith, one, when they pray for you, you like start vibrating. You're like, whoa, there's just so much on their prayers. But they're just good hangs. They're just funny. Like, they're just normal people. I think that's what's. That was so. What struck me so, so much about meeting them for the first time is like, oh, you, you're just like people.

A (49:10)

Yeah.

B (49:10)

You're just normal ladies who, you know, I'm sitting down at dinner with and joking about silly stuff.

A (49:17)

Totally.

B (49:17)

And I think sometimes I think we put these, these, these brothers and sisters in the persecuted church on a pedestal and as if they're like these, you know, holier than thou saints. And they are, they're saints, they're heroes of the faith, but they're just dudes. They're just ladies that are just like you and I. They're just friends.

A (49:38)

Yep.

B (49:39)

So I think that's helpful. It's helpful to be like, oh, if my buddy was being killed for his faith, or if my buddy was being tortured for their faith, what would I do? Yeah, that's, that's the question. Jesus is begging, begging. He's like, act like you were in prison with me. You know, like, if, if, if you love them, you've loved me, the rest of the world will, will see me by your love for each other. He's talking about the body of Christ there.

A (50:06)

Yeah. No, it's beautiful. And I do think the hero of all of the story is Jesus. So these are people just like us who are. I mean, God is infusing to do incredible things, but the hero at the end is Jesus. And these people are just. Just regular people like us. And that's where I feel like there's a sense of when you do. Like, I've again met with believers, like women house church leaders in Sri Lanka. And just the laughter, like, it's just like, this is like. I mean, the funnest I've had. In fact, I'll say this. This is one story. I met with families of martyrs in Egypt, and there was a big family. They. They were making a pilgrimage to Minya and. And extremists from the brother. The Muslim Brotherhood again accosted their vehicles, shot up their vehicles. I think it was around 17 of their family members that were killed. And I was going to meet with them, and my heart was just, like, heavy. And I was like, I don't know if I can. Like, I could. How I feel about this. Then I got there, and it's like they. They were celebrating the fact that their family members were killed for the name of Jesus. And they quickly, like, again, there was mourning, there's grieving. But when I was there with them, them, it was like they were a lot like this. They were having me try all these foods. They were bringing me into this. They were telling me stories. They were saying, you got to meet this guy. You got to meet. It was like this. It was almost like I was at this, like, church potluck reunion with all the. The most fun people in the church. And it was like I was radically changed to go, like, okay, I. I see it now. Like, it's like this. There's definitely a heaviness for all of that, but there's also a sense that, like, these brothers and sisters, again, like, can be. Be some of the most extraordinary and ordinary people, you. I mean, who are just like us, but yet have gone through something and are on the other side and still saying, Jesus is worth it.

B (51:48)

Amen. Amen. Well, Brian, thank you so much for being here. This has been an honor, guys. Please click the link in the show notes. Please support this incredible ministry. Are there any ways we can be specifically praying for you?

A (52:01)

Yeah, No, I really appreciate it. I think, yeah, I would. I would love prayer for wisdom and direction. We're working with lots of leaders across the world in the church today to find out how do we, you know, where do we go next and. And what do we do? And God is calling us to a much larger vision so you can pray for God's wisdom and how we build that out. We want to see millions and millions of dollars funneled into the persecuted church around the world to make an incredible impact. And so we're, we're on the verge of some big visions and strategies to move in that direction and just need God's wisdom needed to be from him and need the right people to line up with that too. And I also just encourage our. I would, I would covet prayers for just my family. Like I need to be, I mean, a, a godly man. I need to love my wife and love my kids. My kids are a little older than your kids, so. But I remember the days when they're young, but I still, again, just need to, to practice the everyday walk with God and, and, and be protected in that too. So, yeah, would love prayer for those two things for sure.

B (53:00)

All right, great. Well, yeah, let me pray for you, Brian. And then, Brian, could you close us? Could you, could you pray for the, the, the viewer here? Could you maybe pray for them to have a, have a, a cadence in their life of thinking about and praying for and supporting the tangible needs of the church?

A (53:19)

Yeah.

B (53:20)

And guys, as Brian's praying, would you be praying as well? Would you be asking the Lord, Maybe you know, someone who has a big foundation, maybe you know, someone who has a platform that can speak out about these things? Maybe it's $5 to send a Bible to a persecuted country. It costs $5 to send a Bible. Maybe that's what Jesus said. The widow who gave the might gave more than all. So it's about your heart. And so as Brian's praying, maybe be praying as well. Like, Lord, what do you want me to do here? But let me pray for you and Brian. Could you close us?

A (53:48)

Love to Jesus.

B (53:49)

I just thank you so much for Brian. I thank you for the work of Global Christian Relief. I pray that you give him the anointing to be the husband and father that you've called him to be. I pray for clarity and vision, for where to go next, for how to allocate resource, how to allocate people, how to allocate money. And God, we just ask for more. More. I pray that you would meet the needs of your saints, of your people, of your children. Lord, I pray that you would stir the American church to realize that you are talking about their persecuted brothers and sisters when you're saying whatever you did for the least of these, you did for me and Jesus. Thank you for the opportunity that we have as rich Americans. You've given us so much. You've given us so much. Lord, we are in the top 1% of the world. And God, I. I just, I know that I have a fear of the Lord when you say that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. That God, when we have so much, we often are the thorny soil that choke out the seed. And Lord, I don't want to be that. I just, I just pray over the Western church that we would, that we would till good soil, that our hearts would be pure, that our hearts. That we would look at the persecuted church, church and that would use them as an example for how to live. God, thank you for them, thank you for the example they're setting for us. And God, thank you for global Christian relief. Thank you for Brian. Give him more, Lord. Give them more. I pray for greater leadership, greater anointing, greater wisdom moving forward in Jesus name.

A (55:26)

God, I just, I come into your presence right now and I pray for every viewer, every listener right now in this moment moment that you would stir their hearts with their persecuted family and the needs and the opportunities that we have, dear God, to take care of sometimes the least of these and sometimes those who are in leadership and others who we can advocate for. But I pray more than anything that you would stir the passion up to connect them to your body globally and that you would again continue to answer that prayer in John 17 to make us all one. And not just here in the US but around the world, globally. As Jesus, people come together, pray for one another, step into each other's stories, shrink the distance and make an incredible impact for the name of Jesus. And I pray specifically that you would speak to each one who is listening and watching that you would give them a vision for what's next in their walk with you, whether that be prayer, fasting and generosity, whatever that might be, dear God, that you would stir them to a specific action on behalf of the global church. Church. And I pray, dear God, that you would even. That you would use this time and use this podcast in a way that, that would advance your kingdom and, and an incredible step change and not just incrementally or marginally. De God, we ask for you to blow the doors open, to continue to, to guide the American church to grow in awareness and grow in connection and grow in love for their global brothers and sisters, our family, we love you and commit this to you, dear God, knowing that it's not for us, but it's for your glory to Jesus. In your name we pray. Amen.

B (57:01)

Amen. Thank you, Brian.

A (57:03)

Thank you, Ryan man. Love this thanks so much.

B (57:06)

Hey, let's run it back, dude.

A (57:07)

All right, here we go, guys.

B (57:09)

Thanks for tuning into the Jesus people. We'll see you guys next week.

A (57:12)

Thanks.