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Jesus People Podcast
The Hidden Source of Anxiety, Trauma, and Triggers with Dr. Courtney Miller | JPP Episode 48
01:18:17
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- [00:00]
A
Purpose is something that's eternal. God defines what our purpose is. It's not going to be found in any self help book. If you find a self help book that's going to say, this is how you find out your purpose. And it's not what is defined in the word of God. It's a lie.
- [00:34]
B
Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of the Jesus People podcast. Very, very honored to have another Miller on the podcast. Let's go, dude. Miller time. We got Dr. Courtney Miller on the podcast. This is going to be good because we've already had a couple conversations and I'm excited about all the things that we get to chat about as it pertains to growth in the Christian life therapy. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it both? How do we approach it? There's so many things I want to pick your brain on. We are in a mental health crisis in our country with, you know, big decisions to be made in parenting. How do we talk to our kids about certain things? How do we address our own emotions? There's so much to get into. So thank you for being on the podcast, Dr. Courtney Miller.
- [01:22]
A
Oh, thank you, Ryan. I'm so excited to be here. I love your ministry and everything that you're about with really elevating the kingdom. So let's get into it. There's so much we could talk about.
- [01:32]
B
There's a lot of, a lot of juicy stuff we could get into. So. Well, give us a bit of your background. So tell us some of your educational background, some of your family background, and then what do you do? Why are you passionate about what you do?
- [01:47]
A
For sure. So My name is Dr. Courtney Miller. I was born and raised in the San Francisco Bay area, and I actually graduated from the Wright Institute in Berkeley, California. And I've studied clinical psychology. I went to UC Berkeley, Go Bears, you know, back in the day. And so something I'm very passionate about is being able to walk with not only the body of Christ, but also those that may not know Christ. To be able to experience freedom, deliverance and breakthrough not only in their mind, but also in their body and their spirit. Because one thing that I've seen in my walk growing up in the church, I was born and raised in the church. I feel like, you know, most of my family grew up in church leadership. You know, I walked through seasons when it came to my own family, when there was no one that could really help us, when it came to the mental and emotional things that were going on behind the scenes. You go to church, you serve in Leadership, Everyone sees you. They, oh, look at that family. They love the Lord they're worshiping, but no one knew what was really going on behind closed doors. And then when they did find out, they didn't have the tools to be able to help us to actually have breakthrough. And so I'm super passionate about helping families to actually walk in freedom, healing, wellness, and peace in Jesus.
- [03:15]
B
Amen. Amen. And you and I, we've talked a bit about the intersection of healing, deliverance, diet therapy, talk therapy. And I'm so curious to get your take because it seems like you have such a balanced take on all this. And man, going from a pastor's family to UC Berkeley, for those who don't know, maybe aren't from the Bay Area, from California. Berkeley is not the most Jesus loving school in the world.
- [03:42]
A
No. You know, when I was thinking about going to Cal, I actually had people in my church that were a little worried about me going there because they know, some people have called it, you know, the witchcraft capital. You know, like, when you go there, you're gonna be exposed to a lot of darkness. And so I was a little scared, you know, as a 17 year old, like, am I gonna go astray? Like, am I gonna make a wrong decision? But I remember receiving this prophetic word as a 17 year old, and in the prophetic word, like, you know, this person doesn't know me. They've never met me. And they were like, you're gonna go all the way. You're gonna get your doctorate and you're not gonna go astray. You have a good foundation. And that was. That felt like the Lord just calming my spirit of like, greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.
- [04:33]
B
Amen. Amen. Amen. Okay, so. So you were having people advise you against going to a secular school. I had people, I went to Wheaton College, small Christian school in Illinois, and I actually had mentors advising me against going to work Wheaton because I went to a very public school high school and was kind of an evangelist as a high school kid. Just like hanging out with all, you know, the, I don't know, the party crowd or whatever, but just love talking about Jesus with everybody. And they were like, we think we're going to lo. You're going to lose your ministry going to Wheaton and thank the Lord. He protected me, actually. I think he actually, like, I would say he laid the foundation for my ministry. But that's really interesting because when I hear you talk, you, you know, you can kind of Sense, where someone's at in terms of their theology or in terms of their beliefs, just kind of by the words they used. And we've used words like deliverance, we've used. I mean, you said witchcraft. So it's clear you have a pulse on the demonic. We've had Rion Sweetlar on the, on the podcast. It seems like the spiritual warfare just keeps coming up for us over and over and over again, which is really, really fascinating. It hasn't been my intention. I. I'm really curious, though, from a therapist's perspective, because we just, you know, we just had this shooting happen in, you know, Minneapolis where this Christian school or mass got shot up by a trans shooter. And this is something that I think is a debate as like, was that demonic? Was that mental illness? What would you say? What would you like? Is it both? What is your take as a therapist who has a pulse on spiritual warfare? What are you seeing happening in a situation like that?
- [06:18]
A
Yes. So I'm not the therapist that's going to tell you all the childhood trauma of this person. You know, that is not my place at all to assume whatever their background was was the cause of why this happened. But one thing that I think about is the Bible informs my worldview, not society. So when I look at what I have been trained to think about as a therapist and as a psychologist, of course, I'm thinking about the systems that this person might have grown up in, you know, emotions. I'm thinking about all these different things, you know, how they're making sense of their world. But what is the most important is that we have to know as Bible believers and Christians, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but there are powers and principalities in high places. That darkness wants to rule and reign over the world and is only looking for a vessel to be able to accomplish the mission. And so when we think about darkness and evil that happens in the world, I'm not going to assign it to a person and be like, yep, it was their trauma and everything that came out that caused them to want to do that. I'm thinking about the enemy is wanting to take people captive in their minds, in their emotions, to speak lies about their. Their future, about their identity, and to cause them to orchestrate what he has planned. And so I am so burdened. And the. The constant reports that we keep getting of evil that seems to be conquering in the world. I will not give the enemy any victory. I will not give him any accolades, because my God is bigger. And I don't understand why God allowed this and millions of other atrocities to happen. But what I do know is who has the victory. And so I'm not gonna entertain debates around, like, the cause and all these things, because what I believe is that that often keeps us stuck in the whys and the what's. But what I do know is who is sovereign and who's in control. And so if I spend more time actually praying and believing and bringing up my grief, bringing up the burdens of my heart and how it's impacting me, that is what is productive against the kingdom of darkness.
- [08:46]
B
Okay, so it sounds to me like what you're saying is, let's not give the enemy too much credit here. There might. There are spiritual principalities that are warring against the kingdom of God, but our job is not to focus on, is this thing a demon? Is this thing not a demon? Is this thing mental illness? Is it not? That's. That is too lofty for us to entertain. And our job as Christians is to keep our eyes focused on Jesus. Is that kind of what you're saying?
- [09:18]
A
You know, I think it's a. Both and. Because I don't want to dismiss mental illness as something that is actually very serious. And I know there might be some therapists that are like, let's not look at anything. It's not demons. It's all mental illness. And we need to treat it the same way as if it was diabetes, same way as if it was an autoimmune condition. And that's not really my stance. I view we are mind, body, and spirit. We are a soul and a spirit in a body. And so it's not just that spectrum. Like, we have to look at the whole thing. We also have a spiritual being. So while in my physical body, I might have a medical condition, I also might be dealing with some challenges when it comes to my mental health. But I also have a spiritual dynamic that I also have to address. So I don't think it's either or. And that's going to be a lot of things in therapy. I think it's always both and. But I think the entertaining of is it this or is it this? It's almost like we're looking for some sense of, like, blame or making someone take accountability in one way or the other of it was just a mental illness, so he wasn't in control, or, oh, it was just a demon, so he wasn't in control. And so sometimes I feel like either direction keeps us stuck when I don't think that's where our focus should be when we see evil or when we see atrocious things, horrendous things that happen, traumatic things. Yes. It is important for us to keep in mind that everyone has been given free will and a choice how they go about living out their life. We don't know what is informing, what's motivating them in their behavior and their mind and their emotions. Now, what is most important is that we realize God is the one who has the final say. God is the one who is in control. And my job is not to try to even understand it or to even question God, but my job is to, to trust him in his wisdom and his sovereignty and to pray for the trauma, pray for the atrocity, pray for whatever suffering I see, because that is supposed to be our response as Christians.
- [11:37]
B
Okay, that's good. That, that's, that's helpful. I, I think I'm still a little bit like, I don't know, maybe you're saying, like, it's not a, it's not a helpful exercise to try to figure out where the thing is coming from, but to pray. Obviously we tear down strongholds through our prayers and we love people. And I think sometimes we can focus so much on where our issues come from and focusing, hyper focusing on our issues. And as a therapist, I've noticed that about myself. Like, I don't know if you're familiar with the book Bad Therapy that basically says, have you, have you read that book?
- [12:16]
A
No, I've never heard of Bad therapy.
- [12:17]
B
Okay, so there's a, there's a book called Bad Therapy that essentially argues that not all therapy is bad, but focusing on your issues so much, hyper focusing on them, continuing to talk about your issues is actually what is responsible in many ways for the mental health crisis that we're seeing or is exacerbating it to a certain extent. And I've certainly noticed that in my life. You know, honestly, you and I are both in the mental health space. I have a coaching ministry called sharethestruggle.org so we do coaching support where we're trying to go future facing. And it's kind of an interesting intersection of some cognitive behavioral therapy principles with inner healing prayer with practical solutions to move forward through your pain, through your trauma, through your anxiety. We will pray with you every session, stuff like that. So that's kind of been. My story is learning, like, wow, I really got healed in therapy, but then I started learning, oh, wow, maybe I'm anxious because my screen time's at 10 hours a day and, and I need to actually Create a new wine skin. I need to create a new pattern of behavior that's gonna inform my peace in my life. So as a therapist, where do you stand with that? Like what? With kind of like, it seems like the catch all solution for issues in this life is just, oh, go to therapy.
- [13:38]
A
You know, some people are not gonna like what I'm about to say, but I actually don't think therapy is always the solution. And there's a reason why for the years that I've been working as a therapist, people come in excited for change, right? There's a problem that leads you to want to come to therapy and you want someone to empathize, to see, to help you problem solve, to get to this other place. And maybe even not even problem solve, but just to validate that you're not alone, that someone gets it. And there can be such a cycle that we can get into when it comes to talking around the problem where, you know, I do believe when it comes to healing from trauma, there are layers that need to get healed back. There are so many layers that have to come off in order for us to even get to the root. So this isn't me saying like, don't go to therapy at all. Because I do think that sometimes there are deep, deep wounds that do need healing. Now when it comes to a place of, okay, I've, I've had this problem, I'm going to go to therapy to work on it. But when we've been in therapy for years and we're still not seeing change or breakthrough or deliverance in a certain area, like, it doesn't mean it's gone completely. But if there's no progress forward, then it makes me wonder how sometimes therapy can actually be a nice incubator of some sort, where it feels really warm, you know, really cozy, you feel help, you feel supported, you feel seen. But in terms of getting you to actually move out of talking about the problem, to start taking action, to start walking out your healing outside of just talking around why you're not healed yet. But we see thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars spent in therapy just to talk about a problem. But I wonder how much we can get the therapy business even out of business when we actually start moving people into taking action. And for example, there might be times when therapy, you know, let's just say you're in a marriage, you feel trapped in the marriage, you feel like you are on the brink of divorce, like you just need help in crisis situations. You need a place like therapy, you need a place like going to your pastoral counselor, like, we need to help us. But when it becomes a place where we become really comfortable in not actually walking in the obedience that God is calling us to do. And let's just say I would think the top reason why people come to me as a therapist is they're walking through some kind of wound where they're having a hard time forgiving. And we could spend 20 sessions talking about why you don't want to forgive. But you know, breakthrough, like if we believe the Bible that it is the word of God and it is true, then you know, freedom is on the other side of your forgiveness. Why are we spending a year talking about why you don't want to forgive?
- [16:58]
B
Like, right, because it feels good to just talk so much about the problem. And it was so hard what they did to me. And that is true. But I think so many people don't realize that forgiveness is not. When you're ready to forgive, you have this emotion of forgiveness that comes over you. The forgiveness isn't happening to you and flowing through you. You are aligning with the forgiver in you, the Holy Spirit that dwells in you, and then making a conscious decision, decision, a step towards forgiveness. And you're saying, you hurt me. What you did to me still affects me today. I still deal with it. I still feel the consequences of your actions. It was awful, it was brutal, it was not fair. None of that was good. However, that weight of that unforgiveness on my shoulders is too much for my soul, my God given soul to bear. So I am relinquishing my right to take vengeance against you and I'm turning you over to Jesus, who's strong enough to take you and who actually really loves you and sees you as his child, even though you hurt me. But I'm no longer going to continue in relationship with you or seek vengeance against you, or have the fake arguments in my head in the shower or in the car against you. I am, I am getting you out of my head. I'm getting the weight off of my shoulders. I'm turning you over to Jesus and I'm saying, lord, you take the weight, you're strong enough to take it, I'm not. And then what you do is you move towards people that usher you to the kingdom of God. And so many people are like, well, I just don't know that I'm ready. Just don't know that I'm ready. It's like in some cases that might be true if it's really, really fresh. But at the end of the day, you either make a decision to do it or you don't. Or you wallow in the pain. You talk about it, talk about it, talk about it to death. And you don't realize that forgiveness is like eating rat poison and thinking the rat's gonna die when it's just killing you.
- [18:48]
A
Ryan, I'm literally getting goosebumps. I, like. I feel like I want to cry because we're not just talking about something that's, like, unforgiveness, you know, move on. Like, I have heard the most traumatic things that you could ever imagine that have happened to people. And in my. You know, my mind, I'm like, they have every good reason not to forgive. You know, like, look at what was done to them. Look at the offense. Look at how their life will never be the same again. And I know the enemy uses unforgiveness as the biggest trap, because if he can keep you wallowing in the pain and the offense and the bitterness and the resentment and the anger and the sadness, if he can get you in this cycle where he can torment you, he knows that you'll never break free. And forgiveness is God's key of freedom, because what it does is I will no longer. I will no longer give the enemy the right, not the person who offended me, because it's already done. But why it feels so alive is because the enemy knows how to bring those thoughts back to you. He knows how to keep the record player in your mind, keep it going. And the thing that keeps so many Christians stuck is that if I keep trying to analyze it, if I keep trying to understand it, maybe one day I'll get to the point where I feel forgiveness. But that is a lot. Like, the enemy wants to come for our feelings many times. And the thing is, our feelings have been given by God. They're one of the most beautiful gifts. Like, we have the ability to access the Father and to understand the feelings that Jesus also had, like sadness. Jesus wept. We have the ability to know what it feels to have sadness, to have joy, to have peace. But one thing that the enemy would love to keep us stuck in is, yeah, you feel this way, and that means it's true. And that means you should keep feeling this way. And that means are. And then we see shame. We see all these things start coming up. Worried, anxiety, depression. When they become not just a momentary feeling, but when they become states and houses that then we abide in, that is stuck.
- [21:21]
B
Yeah, man. I mean, there's nowhere in the whole Bible that It says to take your feelings captive. Your feelings are a gift from God, and Jesus has felt every emotion that you felt. However, it says, go to war with your thoughts. So you go to war with your thoughts. You take them captive, you make them obedient to Christ, or you throw them in the trash if they're not in accordance with God's best for you. And then you notice your feelings. You're aware of your feelings. I think so many Christians are busy letting their thoughts run wild and taking their feelings captive. Gosh, I shouldn't feel this way. And then they're thinking, lies the enemy, sending these flaming darts. And they're just, like, letting themselves get bombarded by the flaming arrows of the enemy instead of picking up the shield of faith, going, wow, why do I feel anxious right now? Getting really curious, like, well, anxiety is actually an emotion that's given by God. So anxiety, there's actually nothing. Like, no skyscrapers would get built, no companies would get built without anxiety. So anxiety is not the enemy. Now, we can get out of whack, but all that's doing is it's telling you that something's out of whack and you need to address it. So if anxiety gets heightened to the point of where you're now trapped by it, get curious, go, why am I. What. What. What is happening in my body? Where am I feeling this anxiety? Why am I feeling that pit in my stomach? Why am I feeling that tightness in my chest? These racing thoughts? Why am I feeling this way? There's something out of whack. And I think actually a therapist or a coach or a trusted pastor can really, really help you dive into what's going on. They can make sense of, like, it's like you've got all these bees swirling around you. Like, if you, like, freeze time, you realize it's like, really two Bs, but it felt like a tornado around you, you know, because it's, like, buzzing and it's. But, like, sometimes a therapist or a coach can just be like, whoa, let's freeze time. Two B's right there. There's two lies that you've partnered with. Take them captive, throw them in the trash. Your screen time is too much. You've got a toxic relationship here. Like, cut it off. You know, like, sometimes we need that person. The why? You know, in wise counsel, we see victory, so we need that wise counsel. And I don't hear you advocating against that. Obviously, you're a therapist, and I run a coaching ministry, so we're not advocating against that. At all. No, what we're saying, I think, is sometimes Christians in particular will just wallow in their sin, wallow in these identities that are not ours to take. Like, no, you're not an anxious person. No, you're not a bad friend. No, you're not a deadbeat dad. No. Like, make a decision to move forward and go see your kids if you feel that way. Make a decision to get off your phone and go fast and get quiet for a day if you're feeling anxious, or to talk and express that to a friend or a coach or pastor or therapist. Like, make forward decisions. And I think so often the enemy tries to get us trapped by labeling us and by allowing us to, like, hold on to these feelings, to not express them when feelings were made to be expressed. And we. We believe the thoughts that are not ours, that thought oftentimes is not yours. It was sent by the enemy.
- [24:32]
A
Ryan. That is literally. That is the biggest key of helping people to discern between what is truth and what is a lie. Because we have millions and millions of thoughts throughout the week, right? And what we have to get sharp at is discerning what is truth and what is a lie. Now, if something. Something is, let's just say, is coming up to you, where it's like, yeah, you know, people are going to think this about you and you're going to do this, and people say this about you, and people do, blah, blah, blah. Let's just say that's true. Like, you've heard people say maybe negative things about you, and you're like, well, it's true. People feel this way about me. It's true. I've heard people say it. Now, I'm not talking about facts. I'm talking about truth. And truth is only found in Jesus. I am the way, the truth and the life. Now, you might have a fact of something might have happened which is making me feel or making me think a certain way. Now, if that does not align with what the word of God says about you, then it is a lie sent from hell or it's your own flesh. Because a lot of people want to blame the devil. All day, the devil did this, the devil. And many times it's also our own lived experiences, how we were raised, the ways that we heard our family say different things. Like, if you grew up in a household where you saw your mom really worried, really anxious about things we can say all day, you have a spirit of anxiety on you. But if you're missing the context of how someone grew up and the modeling that they saw in their household, then you're missing another part of the picture. Which is why I said earlier, when it comes to thinking about, like, traumatic things that happen, like the shooting, it is not helpful for us to say, is it this or this? Because we're just trying to assign fault and blame in some kind of way. Yes, I know. At the root of it is, like, really trying to understand and to have this sense of compassion and understanding that can, like, help us maybe empathize. But really what I. What I hope we can do is at the end of the day, if we notice, okay, I'm feeling like I'm always anxious. I feel like I can't take the step forward. I love what you said about getting curious, because what sometimes we see in the church is curiosity is gone. And all of a sudden a label is then assigned. You have a spirit of anxiety come to the altar, and we need to cast that spirit out right now because that's a demonic spirit. And we're missing a whole other side of discipleship. Because if we're talking to that same individ who grew up in a household where their mother was so worried and we don't. Let's just say, for example, the mother grew up with a chronic illness and didn't know how much longer she was going to live and was always worried about what the doctors were going to say. Always worried about what she could eat and if it was going to cause her some health ailment. You grow up seeing your mom like that, you. You might take on some of that worry as well. And then you're like, coming to the altar and the pastor's like, in Jesus name, I cast out the spirit of anxiety. And you're missing someone else's whole lived experience of like, wait. But it wasn't even about that. Like, at the. What I think, at least in this example, is there's missed grief that isn't being addressed, and it's quickly just being assigned a label. And we miss out on the opportunity to really facilitate healing in someone's life because we're quick to assign what we think they're dealing with. And let's just say it could be addiction. It can be. Let's just talk about porn addiction. You might say, I've been dealing with a porn addiction for most of my life. Oh, you're dealing with a spirit of lust. We need to cast that demonic spirit out.
- [28:36]
B
Yeah.
- [28:37]
A
And then when you take the time to listen to someone's story and you hear how they actually grew up with no Mother. And they grew up longing for some kind of emotional connection with someone. They grew up longing for a sense of nurturance, a longing for someone to desire them and to feel like they're valuable. And then they feel, let's just say someone introduced porn as a 5 year old, as a 10 year old, and they're like, wow, there's something about this that makes me feel desired, or I desire that kind of love that I see going on. What we know is lust. And so then we're really seeing people that are trapped not only in a spirit of lust. Yes, that could be underneath it. And then what we're really wanting to do is to get to the heart of how maybe they never felt loved. They dealt with the spirit of rejection and abandonment their whole life. And that's where the breakthrough comes, right?
- [29:35]
B
Amen, dude. I. I think about Jesus when he's talking about casting out demons, and he's like, listen, don't cast out demons this way. Because guess what? If you cast out that demon, you sweep that house clean. What happens in the spirit realm is seven more demons come and they take over that house. And so Jesus is not saying don't cast out demons. What he's saying is cast out demons and then do discipleship. Cast out demons from the house and then fill the house. That's what Jesus is saying. And I think so many people are on either side of the equation where it's either like, they're casting out, like, we need to cast out this spirit of fear, we need to cast out this spirit of anxiety. And then on the other side of the coin, they're like saying, oh, this isn't real. They're saying, oh, demonic or spiritual warfare doesn't exist. And that's actually another question I wanted to ask you. So I feel like when I have a bad day at work, when I come home and I'm like, my cortisol is pinging. And then these kids, they do not want to go to bed. Dude, they don't want to go to bed. What is with kids? They're like, it is like their kryptonite. They're like, do not make me sleep. And then they don't sleep. And then they're mad the whole day because they didn't sleep. And so I'm feeling this rising cortisol and I'm getting so mad and I'm like, just. I'm like literally doing, breathing. I'm like, lord, help me, Lord help me. And then I inevitably just snap at them and I'm like, Get in your bed. And I'm like, I hate that. I hate that I snap. What are some. What are some tools that you've got for me as a mother, as a therapist, when I'm feeling that in me, when I'm just like, I am ready to snap. And I know we're totally switching gears here from, like, spiritual warfare, but I'm just curious.
- [31:23]
A
This is a part of it, though, for parents. This is spiritual warfare for parents.
- [31:27]
B
Yes, yes, yes. You know, what do you got for me? There's.
- [31:32]
A
Yeah. So, you know, I think you often hear, you know, gentle parenting. That's all the rave right now. Right? Like, we always need to have a calm tone, talk to our children like this, you know, and that's not real. It's. It's really not real. And what I want to bring. I want to bring some freedom to you today because if we can actually take this false expectation of what it means to be a good enough parent or off of us, then we can get free to actually deal with who we actually are today. And let's just say who you are today is you are busting your butt, like, trying to provide for your family. You come home and it's like your cortisol is already through the roof and you just want the kind of children that just come to the door. Daddy. Oh, we love you. Can you read us a bedtime story and we'll fall asleep immediately. You know, like, you want the perfect life, right?
- [32:29]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:30]
A
But the thing that often keeps us as parents stuck is that then let's just say we have a moment of going off. There is grace and there is forgiveness for us as well, to be able to say, you know what? I have this ideal of maybe what perfect parenting is supposed to look like, where I never go off, I never mess up, I never yell at my kids, and that's not reality. And, you know, the kind of perfection that sometimes we feel like we have to aim to is not what our children are even going to face in real life. They're not going to face crystal clear, you know, circumstances and people that always are graceful and kind and everything. So what we need to actually model for our children is not perfection where we never lose our emotional regulation. What they actually need to see is how do I repair when there is a rupture. So let's just say daddy came home and I can see he was really upset. Now, where the healing happens is not that it never, ever happened, and you were perfect all the time. What they is when daddy can make a Mistake. And he can take ownership over the mistake and mend the relationship. So let's just say you had a moment of like, get in bed. I'm so tired. And they're like, oh, Daddy's so mad. And then you wake up and act like it never happened.
- [34:02]
B
Yeah.
- [34:02]
A
And you never address what happened. Then there's confusion of, like, wait, is Daddy mad at us? Is are we okay? And kids don't know to articulate that.
- [34:11]
B
Yeah.
- [34:12]
A
All they are like, let me just make sure I don't mess up again. And there creates, like, a fear dynamic. But if you're like, you know what? Yesterday Daddy had a hard moment. I was so tired, I was so stressed, and I yelled at you, and I'm so sorry. That wasn't right. That wasn't Christlike. Will you please forgive me? Then that models the gospel to our children. The gospel is not about perfect people staying perfect. And then we get zoomed up to heaven where we can all be perfect together.
- [34:40]
B
Yes.
- [34:41]
A
When we model the gospel to our children, we model, you know what? I might sin against you. I'm not perfect. I'm going to sin just like you're going to sin against me. But the way that Christ came was we have forgiveness in Jesus, and we also have humility in Jesus. So I'm going to be humble. I'm going to own up that I might have done something where I lost my cool. And I'm going to reconcile with you and show you what Christ does for us.
- [35:10]
B
That's good. Yeah, my wife. My wife holds me to that. Pretty good. It's a classic, right? Like, so mad at bedtime, come downstairs, sit down on the couch with her, be like, do you think maybe the tone was a little harsh tonight? You know, she's so sweet about it. And then like, yep, I think I need to apologize the next tomorrow, and I'll. I'll take my little girl or my little guy, and I'll sit him on my lap and I'll be like, do you remember when Daddy was pretty mad last night? Yeah. Like, will you forgive me for that? Like, Daddy should not. Daddy. Daddy was upset. I felt like you weren't obeying me. And that was not right for Daddy to yell at you. Do you forgive me? And so I do that with. With when they have fights with each other, too. Like, if someone. If there's a rupture, how are we going to repair? Like, I did this. I'm sorry for this. Will you forgive me? Yes, I forgive you for doing this. So I think there's something about actually saying it that's really helpful.
- [36:08]
A
Yes. And I think one thing I want to also name, I want to give a tool that can also help us when we do have these rupture moments. And let's just say you see it for yourself. You feel dysregulated, your child is dysregulated. And sometimes we want to try to just jump to trying to repair and be like, oh, man, I accidentally yelled at my kid. Like, let me try to, like, make it better. What is actually more helpful is that you get to a point of being regulated yourself and you help your child then to be regulated. So let's just say real, real life. Like, this has happened to me many times where I'm cooking, I'm cooking, I'm trying to get dinner going, and then I make dinner and my child is like, I don't want this, I don't like this. And the mama bear inside of me is like, oh, no, do you know how long? And I want to yell. I want it. Like, I feel disrespected, I feel hurt. And what I have had to learn to do is to walk away. Because in that moment, my mouth is not going to say anything productive. And so I have to sometimes, like, walk away. Like, Courtney, you're talking to a three year old. Like, I have to talk out loud. You're talking to a three year old right now. He is just straight up emotion. He's not thinking about how you feel. He's only in his little body and his experience. You can just take a deep breath. And sometimes I have to call my husband to tap in and I tap out. I'm like, patrick, I need you to take over for a second because I need to go regulate and I'll go to the back room, take some deep breaths. Sometimes if I'm really triggered, I'll cry. And then I come back to my child and I say, you know what, I am so sorry. Mommy just needed to take some deep breaths. I just needed some alone time. But I'm ready here to now talk through it with you. Like, you know, and sometimes we feel like we just have to, like, suck all of our emotions in and then we don't deal with what the pain that we're struggling with, the anger we might be feeling. And then we go in cycles of like, I yelled at my kid, I said sorry. I yelled at my kid, I said sorry. But we're actually not healing and allowing ourselves to move forward to make sure we don't do it again. So I really Feel like we as parents have to be able to say, if I'm trying to teach my child how to be regulated. Are you regulated most of the time? No.
- [38:28]
B
Yeah, I. I hate that. My last word to my kids at night is often one of anger. Like, just go to bed, you know, so mad. And then I leave the room and I'm like, was that the. That's the last thing they remember from this day. I'll never have this day back. And I just ended it being angry. And I think a really helpful thing that you said was, was one, like, have grace. Like, the bar for us is not perfection. Like, we need to have grace for ourselves. And then number two, to tap out and be like, babe, I'm out of it. Like, I'm about to go crazy right now. Can you just take them for a minute? And then to lower our cortisol, to regulate our nervous systems, to do some deep breathing. Sometimes I just like, I'll do deep breathing, I'll do some push ups and I'll just be like, jesus, help me. And then I, I try to, like, literally physically put a smile on my face because I'm trying to like, change my brain chemistry and then walk back in and then engage again and then have the, I think the moments where you can create a different neural pathway where it's like, I feel so mad right now. And my, my traditional response would be to yell, I'm gonna tickle them instead. You know, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna move in the opposite spirit. I'm gonna move away from what I'm feeling right now, and I'm actually gonna let my hands dictate what the re my reality. My emotions are not going to dictate my reality. I'm going to give a hug when I feel like smacking, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna move in the total opposite spirit. And that to me has been helpful because sometimes I don't feel, feel it. I'm like, and I don't want to be fake and. But if I can actually just do something different, just be like, I'm actually taking. I'm actually in control of me. Like, my mind, I'm actually in control of Ryan. So my mind is going to make a different decision than my body feels and my emotions feel. And when I feel like, you know, just letting that kid have it, like screaming at him so mad, what I'm going to do is I'm going to get down on their level. I'm gonna, like, smile at him. I'm gonna give him a hug and be like, now that wasn't very nice, you know, and be like. And still correct the behavior. It doesn't mean we're just, you know, not, we're not like correcting bad behavior. But is there any merit to that? Like neuro neuroscience wise?
- [40:52]
A
Like, for sure. And you know, I think you said something, my pastor always says, like, when I feel something, I do the opposite of how I feel. Because we don't want to be dictated by what our feelings say. And at time, you know, let's just say, for example, I'm feeling upset with my kids. I know, like in one vein I want to do this, but I'm going to tell myself to do the opposite of how I feel. The way that healing continues to happen for the parent is, yes, I'm not going to do what I feel. And I need to process what's coming up for me because the anger isn't coming from them. They're just the trigger. Yeah, they're just literally the thing that goes back. But the anger was already on the inside and it was just waiting to escape. And so sometimes what we can do as parents, the best gift that sometimes we can give our children is sometimes going to therapy to do the deep processing of like, why is it that I'm so ready to go from 0 to 100? Like, what is it? And 1 toddlers, they just be crazy in these streets. It just be. It's ghetto. It's like crazy all the time. But another thing too is sometimes there's deep things that have been unconscious even in our own selves that we've never really unlocked. Until you become a parent and you feed your child dynamic.
- [42:18]
B
Yes. Oh my goodness. I like, you know, I always heard like, wait till you get married. It's gonna show. It's gonna show all your selfishness, bro. No, no, no.
- [42:31]
A
That's one level.
- [42:33]
B
Have. Have some kids and like. Yeah. Have multiple kids. Have.
- [42:39]
A
Yeah. Not even just one. Have multiple.
- [42:42]
B
Have.
- [42:42]
A
Have.
- [42:43]
B
Just have a morning where they're all three just go in buck wild and tantruming and flailing on the ground. This sounds really bad. This is going to get me in trouble. But sometimes I film it because I'm like, you're not gonna believe this. And they're so out to lunch that I'm just like, babe, you just had to see, you had to see what was going on. It was so next level. And there are times that sounds that's really bad, but I make sure they don't see but there are times.
- [43:13]
A
Like.
- [43:14]
B
If my wife's not there, I'm like, babe, you. I just had to give you three seconds of just the. The. Like, it was, like, on the Richter scale. Like, it was crazy. And then there's times me and my wife just look at each other, and it's so bananas. We just, like, you either laugh or cry, so you just start laughing, you know? So we just look at each other, and I. One of us cracks a smile, and then we just burst out laughing. And again, sounds awful. But if you're a parent of multiple kids, you're in the club. You know what I'm talking about.
- [43:43]
A
And I think that is. It's real. It's real life, that sometimes the things that you deal with as a parent, you are pushed to your utmost. Like, the. The sky. You go past the sky, like, with the level of just tomfoolery that your kids can pull out and the trigger that you can pull out on you. But I think one thing. And this is gonna switch the script a little bit, but one thing that has helped me, even in moments like that, is God. I'm thankful I have a kid because I know what it feels like to have lost a kid. And me and my husband last year were pregnant, and we lost our baby. And walking through a miscarriage and having to heal from something like that, I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone. And then when you see your kids who is driving you wild, I then say, thank you, God, I have a kid who's driving me wild, because.
- [44:52]
B
Amen. Amen.
- [44:53]
A
I don't get to see the kid that I lost, but I'll see them one day.
- [44:57]
B
Right? Right. We. We lost a baby as well.
- [45:01]
A
Really?
- [45:02]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Man, that was. That was pretty tough. That was pretty tough. It was our first, so. Yeah, I know the. I know the heartbreak of that. I'll never forget. Rebecca Lyons said this to us. She's in our. One of our anxiety courses for Share the Struggle, and she basically said, like, when I start getting anxious about something, I start thanking the Lord for that thing. So, like, you get anxious about your job?
- [45:31]
A
Yeah.
- [45:31]
B
Lord, thank you that I have a job. You're anxious that, you know, you're in a fight with your spouse and she's mad at you, and you're gonna, you know, really get it when you get home or whatever. Lord, thank you for my wife. Thank you that she is so humble and so patient and so loving and so kind and so artistic and so beautiful. You start thanking the Lord for the very thing and it's so funny. Like, I think the number one hack according to the Bible for all mental health issues is gratitude. Because in neuroscience is now proving it. You're a doctor. You can't be anxious and grateful at the same time. They live in different parts of your brain. Yeah, when you're deeply anxious about something, just start thanking the Lord for the very thing. So, God, I'm so nervous that my. I'm not going to be a good dad. Thank you, Lord, that I'm a dad. I'm so anxious about my job. Thank you, I have a job. You move in the opposite spirit and start thanking the Lord for the very thing that you were fearful for. And all of a sudden, you're rewiring your brain towards gratitude. You're literally lifting the weight off of your shoulders of the anxiety that your soul was not made to carry. You're giving it to Jesus in a prayer of gratitude, which is one of the two things Jesus says you're supposed to do. On repeat, pray without ceasing, and give thanks in all circumstances. So you move in that spirit and you say, lord, I'm actually thankful for the very thing I'm anxious about that kicks the devil in the teeth.
- [46:56]
A
You know what my favorite, favorite thing to tell my clients to be able to bring freedom and breakthrough is? The more you can stay in the present. That is where God is. When we stay in the past, that's when the enemy tries to remind us and keep us stuck and remind us who we used to be and everything they did. And in the future, anxiety keeps us in the future of thinking about, well, what if, and what if it happens again? And what you like, it keeps us almost dissociating where God is in the present moment. And so I believe gratitude allows us to access the Lord so much because it reminds us like, I'm not God, I'm not in control of my future, but I know who is. And so if I can access I love Philippians 4, 6, 7. Do not worry about anything. But in everything, with prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God. And then we have a promise that comes along when we don't allow worry to take over. When we use thanksgiving and prayer, God attaches a promise, the peace of God that surpasses all understanding. Will, it doesn't say might. It will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. But then he doesn't leave it there. He then tells us, so instead of being anxious and thinking about the future, this is what I want you to think. About. Think on things that are good, think on things that are lovely, things that are noble. Good report. And so, you know, some people might be like, well, I don't want to do that positive psychology stuff. Like, always think about the good and the positive. Like, that doesn't feel real. Like, I'm going through real life things. How do I actually access the ability to not dwell in my trauma, dwell in my suffering, the things that happened to me. The. The number one way that I believe believers can get free and to start walking in all the promises of God over their life is not to fake the funk and to pretend like you're not dealing with grief, like, when dealing with the miscarriage. I was not going to act like, oh, thank you, Jesus. I just went through a miscarriage. I'll see my baby in heaven. Thank you, Lord. That's fake. And people can sniff out fake. But when we're in Jesus, we know healing is only found in God because he is Jehovah Rasa. So what I am going to do, I'm not going to be like, thank you, God. At least I was a parent. I should be grateful. What I will do is, God, I thank you that despite my suffering and despite how much this sucks, you're still on the throne.
- [49:58]
B
Yeah.
- [49:59]
A
I thank you that my circumstances do not dictate my future, because your Word said that you have a plan and a purpose for my life. And so if believers can start to take the word, not to pretend like you're not feeling what you're feeling, but to bring it to God. If we look at Job, Job had everything taken away. He had every reason to be like, but God, I'm depressed. And he was. He said it. He was suicidal. And yet he still blessed God. Mm.
- [50:37]
B
Amen. Amen. Amen. Yeah. Golly. Like, I just. I think the only person Jesus tells us to remember is Lot's wife. It's the only person he says to remember. And what did Lot's wife do? She was the only woman in the Old Testament that screwed up. To the point where God says, remember how bad she screwed up? Because God says when he's about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and he lets them leave, he tells them, I don't want you looking back. Don't look back. Don't look back with longing at your friends or your family or the lifestyle you had back then. He says, we're moving forward. And then she looks back, disobeys God, and turns into a pillar of salt. She gets calcified, hardened, and stuck Right where she was. So I think the fastest way to get stuck as a Christian is to look back at your past. And the fastest way to be anxious is to look to the future. Because like you said, Philippians 4, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever ever is lovely, think on these things. So you trade the what ifs for the what is, and the peace of God guards your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. And you can actually do what Matthew 6 says, where Jesus says, when you're anxious, look outside and see the flowers and look at the birds and see that I take care of them. Get yourself grounded in nature. Get yourself grounded in the what is and the what ifs fleet in the past. The past now has no longer any claim over you because you realize, like, oh, when I'm here with Jesus, he's with me, I'm a child of God. You start being able to speak truth over yourself and you're not clouded by the shame of what's gone on back then. So, yeah, I just feel like that's such a simple principle. It's so hard to do. But you know, the beautiful thing about neuroplasticity is we can change our brains. Like a lot of times people are just like, oh, it's just the way I am. So, like, well, yeah, for now, especially with that attitude, it's just the way you are. But like, there's this little thing called neuroplasticity that literally science has proven that you can change your brain. You can actually, through epigenetics, express different genes in your DNA that were given to you by your parents. You can suppress and, and, and express different genetic qualities of you. So you are not you as you are right now. You are a living, breathing, changing human being that God has given the ability to change and to pull down strongholds and to believe the truth and to take captive the lies and then to move forward into the life that you believe for yourself. This is not a prosperity gospel thing. This is biblical. God has a hope and a future for you. And so many of us cannot grab the hope in the future for us because we're stuck in our past or we're stuck in the labels that we've let Satan speak over us and we've just partnered with and slapped on ourselves and says, I guess I'm just this type of person.
- [53:17]
A
Yeah.
- [53:17]
B
So I think Christians are missing the biggest blessing of life, which is to dream about the person you want to be. Like, look at the example of Christ and say, how can I be more meek? How can I be More lowly? How can I be more patient? How can I be more tender? How can I be more courageous? All of these things, and then you get to actually express and live those things out one step of obedience at a time. So you don't, you don't like that you're not in shape. Well, okay, the moment you trade in that donut for a healthy breakfast, you just made a step towards the kingdom of God. You don't like that you're angry with your children like I am. The moment you choose patience and empathy and to enter into their world and to get curious and to still hold the boundaries, but do it in a firm but loving manner, you just expressed that gene. You just built a new neural pathway that every time you get triggered now, you're building this new pattern of behavior. This is deeply, deeply spiritual and also neurochemical at the same time.
- [54:22]
A
Absolutely. Like, if we think about the creator of the universe created you, which you are someone who has the power to create, and we're not just thinking in terms of birth. Like, that's one way that man and woman come together and create. But you have the DNA of the creator of the universe inside of you. And what the enemy would love to do is to define you based on labels, define you based on what you did in the past, define you. What people have said diagnoses all these things. And the beautiful thing about Jesus when we read in the New Testament is we overcome. When you, you keep reading, you don't just like, keep or don't just stay at the Gospels, like, keep reading. You see how believers overcome by the word of their testimony, the blood of the lamb, and they love not their life unto death. And so when you think about what you went through, it's not forget the past, never talk about it, and never look back. But you realize your past is actually a tool now because your past allows you to be able to empathize. It allows you to minister, it allows you to bring breakthrough. Because what the enemy would want you to do is, oh, well, you went through that. You're disqualified now. Or you went through that. That's a part of your story. There's no hope now. But what God does is everything that the enemy thought he could as evil. He turns it around and will use it for the good if you let him. You know, I love that the word says all things work together for the good. Now, some of us might be like, but how I went through this, how could this be turned into something good? This is part of my past that haunts Me, it's traumatic. What good could come from this? The good that actually comes from our past, the things that weigh us down, that we feel like have defined us, that have hurt us, is we give it up to God as a sacrifice. And we say, God, you saw this happen. Heal me, deliver me. You have the power to bring me through. And what I also want to say is because some people might say, I'm waiting for my healing, I'm waiting for my deliverance and my breakthrough. Your healing is already here because the work was finished on the cross.
- [56:55]
B
Amen.
- [56:55]
A
So there is no need for striving to be healed. There is no need for driving for deliverance and breakthrough because Jesus already did it for you. What it then is, is us grabbing hold of the free gift of salvation that was given to us and walking it out day by day with our confession. Are we confessing and declaring that we are still who we were in the past? If I'm saying, well, you know, I was diagnosed with this, I had this kind of abuse happen. So that's always going to be a part of who I am. You can make a choice if that's always a part of who you are, or you could make a choice. I don't come into agreement with that identity. The idea that I come into agreement is that I am a son and a daughter of the most High God, and I am, he says, and thus I walk differently. I walk with purpose. I walk in the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't walk based on what others might say. I only operate by what God says.
- [58:03]
B
Yeah, yeah, that verse, they love not their own lives. I can see therapists just pulling their hair out of that verse. Right? Because isn't therapy today like a lot of like self love and like you just gotta love yourself. What do you make of that verse?
- [58:25]
A
This is gonna ruffle some feathers. It's gonna ruffle them. I don't think self love is biblical. I don't. The reason I don't think that is because when we read also in the New Testament, in the end times, when you see like a whole bunch of crazy things that are gonna be happening, one thing that's written is that people will become lovers of self. And when I read that, I'm not thinking like, oh, well, you know, I have good self esteem and you know, I'm confident in myself. Like, I don't think that's what it's talking about. But I think sometimes self help culture can be so focused on just you, it's all about you, your experience Your journey, your voice, what you think, what you feel, it's all about you. And the thing is, that is not a biblical concept. What we see all throughout scripture is sacrificing and laying ourselves down to be a servant, to serve others. And when it comes to even, let's just say even in the business world, when it comes to like, oh, well, you know, it's about making money and all these things, like, that's not even biblical either. Like, we might see Christian business people that are all about like, oh, well, let me just help you make money. And if it's not rooted in serving people with our gifts and really solving real problems that they're facing in their life, then it's there.
- [59:54]
B
Oh, wow, that's. That's a word. That's good. That's really good. Yeah, that will ruffle some feathers. That will. Because I think a lot of, a lot of people today are just obsessed with themselves and they're so like, you know, I think there was a study that came out that showed that the people that talked about themselves the most were the most depressed. And I'm like, well, yeah, the scriptures are pretty clear about that. In the last days there will be lovers of self. But the biblical model is they love not their lives, their own lives. They instead, they chose to keep the focus outward. And they, they served people and they served God. You know, I've got two rules for every day. And I should say it this way. I have two goals for every day. This is how I know that I'm successful in each day. Did I spend time alone with the Lord where I wasn't spending time with him in order to make content? And number two, did I serve someone that couldn't do anything for me in return? I'm not talking like, oh, I've got a call with a coworker that is, you know, I really, I prayed with him. It's like someone that has nothing to offer me. Did I serve the least of these? And if I do those two things, I look back at the end of my day and I was successful. And what I've found is when I make those two things my metric, everything else, work wise or family wise or even fun wise, it falls into place and it falls into the right order and I leave my day going, okay, I know I was successful because I think sometimes we have this ambiguous feeling of what did I do today? How do I. How do I know if I actually had a good day or not? And it leaves people with anxiety because they don't measure it you don't say, this is what success looks like for me. So Those are my two things. If I do those two things, successful day, and I'm probably batting, you know, 400, I'm not perfect at all. I'm like four out of 10 days. I hit both of those things, which is sad. I need to, I need to lock it in. That's been really helpful for me because I think I'm, I'm realizing when I start thinking about my own needs, I'm miserable.
- [61:57]
A
Yeah.
- [61:57]
B
When I actually look at what the scriptures say they loved not their own lives. Like, that's the mandate to the disciples. It's like these apart, like we're talking about the apostles and the disciples, they, they, they forsook their own agendas, their own how they were perceived by the world. Like all of that just got put on the altar. And they said, how do we become servants of Christ? And like, oh, you want to crucify me? Do it upside down because I'm not worthy to be killed like Christ, you know, but in the last days, people will be lovers of self. And we've got these little self absorption, absorbed absorption machines in our pockets. I'm like, this is why people are so anxious today, in my opinion, is they're so obsessed with themselves. And that's not to belittle legitimate anxiety where you have chemical imbalances and you are really, really struggling. The emotion of anxiety when it gets out of whack is one of the worst things I've ever felt in my life. I don't mean to minimize that at all. But when I'm saying generalized anxiety for our culture, I think a lot of it is a result of self obsession. Is that offensive? Like, tell me where you stand on that.
- [63:04]
A
You know, I, I'm never going to tell someone. Like, no, I don't agree, because I think all of our different perspectives put together, almost like this mosaic of us trying to understand each other in our worlds. And I do think that there is a way in which self absorption allows us to only see us. Which when you're looking in the mirror and you're only looking at yourself, it's so easy to see all the flaws, right? Like you're looking at like, oh, my pores and I have a pimple and my nose is big. And it's like, it's just the way when we're looking at ourselves, it's literally, we're gonna find faults. And that also can sometimes happen when we're always looking at other people too. So it's not even like, well the solution is in only look at other because the opposite of that is in the self sacrifice dynamic. That actually isn't helpful because when you are in relationship with someone who is always self sacrificing, everything is about. It's not about me, it's always about you. And I don't know what I want for dinner. It's all about what you want for dinner. Like I'm being dramatic, but you have extremes of someone who's like, it's all about me, what I want, how I feel. And then you have the other extreme of like. Like I never want to say what I want because it's always about you and others are better than me because I don't see myself in a good way. Like that's not healthy either. And so the in between is actually being God focused. The more I focus on advancing the kingdom of heaven and doing what God says, that's where peace, joy and righteousness are in the Holy Spirit. And when we think about. Okay, I love what you said. If I have two goals of what feels like a successful day and they're biblical, they're aligned with what God says to do, we know that his blessings are there. And I like to call. I know you use the word success, but I like to call it like, what is your vision of like a thriving life? My thriving life might look different than yours because our circumstances are different, our callings are different. But. But what I want to make clear for all of us as believers is that we all have the same purpose and people get purpose and calling confused. Purpose is something that's eternal. God defines what our purpose is. It's not going to be found in any self help book. If you find a self help book that's going to say this is how you find out your purpose. And it's not what is defined in the word of God. It's a lie. Because we see very clearly in the word of God what our purpose is. And I'll put it simply, your purpose on this earth is one, to know God. You're called to know him, to grow in your knowing of Him. Two, you're called to love God. And that's not just an emotion, that's obedience. We're called to actually love God through how we obey God with our lifestyle. That's worship. Three, we're called to love and to serve others. All throughout scripture you see that we're called to love others, but not just to love, but to give and to serve. And then the last one, we're called to steward the things that God has given us. We are called to take our finances, our gifts, anything else that God has given us to be able to steward them well, to be able to serve and advance the kingdom of God and to disciple others. So if there ever are questions, question of, like, well, you know, I don't really know what God is calling me to do. My purpose, like, go to the word. The Word tells you very clearly what your purpose is. But when it comes to your calling, and if you're like, what is this thriving life like, how do I find out what God is calling me to do? And what should be the. The metric that I say I'm living the successful, thriving life. Your calling is often defined by what is in your hand right now. So for an example, if you are a mother and you have kids, you have a home, you have a husband, your number one calling is to the things in your hand right now, which is your family. Now, some of us might say, but I feel like God has put a ministry in my heart. He's calling me to reach the world outside of my family. Great. Steward what you have wisely now. Because if you are given little and you're not taking care of the little, why would God give you more? And so, first step, take care of what's in your hand right now and then allow the Lord to. Allow you to see your gifts, the things that he's given you. You had different gifts, Ryan, that advance the kingdom than I do. And if I get into a comparison mode of like, well, Ryan has this and Ryan does this and that's what success is, because Ryan is this, then I'm missing the whole point. We are the body of Christ. If Ryan is the eyes and I'm the ear, then who's going to be the. No, like, we can't all be the eyes.
- [68:04]
B
Yes.
- [68:05]
A
Someone has to be the nose, someone has to be the hands. Like, if all of us are operating in our calling, every need will be supplied in the whole world. Amen.
- [68:18]
B
Amen. Yeah, I think sometimes we want to be called to something because we've, we value it, we think it's cool, but we don't stop and say, well, what do I like? Like, I think so many people. Like, I've had a lot of people because my, my work is in film and social media. And I'll have people that want to do filmmaking or they want to be a social media influencer. And I'm just, the whole time I'm like, that's not who you are. Like, I can just tell you right now, like, you're not gonna go viral, and that's okay. Like, you're not gonna. You're not gonna reach people, and you're not. You're not a storyteller. Like, you know, you might be an accountant, and praise the Lord for that, you know, But I think we need to first ask, like, lord, how have you crafted me and what do I like doing? I think sometimes the most spiritual answers are just the most simple, like, do I like it? Like, because if my son doesn't like baseball, I was a baseball player. But if he doesn't like baseball, if he wants to be a painter, what kind of father would I be to make him play baseball? So I think often God's asking you, like, well, do you like it? And I think the second question is, am I good at it?
- [69:28]
A
Right?
- [69:29]
B
So do I like it? Am I good at it? And then third is like, is there a need for it in the kingdom of God?
- [69:35]
A
Yeah.
- [69:35]
B
And I think you can. If you ask those three questions, you know what your calling is, you know, because there's a known will of God, which God's known will for you is very simple. Don't kill people. Be nice to people. Love everyone. Love your enemies. Serve people. Spend time with me. That's his known will. We know it from the Bible. It's. It's written in red ink. You know, the unknown will is, where am I going to be in 10 years? And I think it's. It comes down to this, actually. Tim Keller said this. What do you like doing? Are you good at it? And is there a need for it? Ask those questions. Oftentimes we go and, you know, pray and pray like, lord, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? And it's like, well, sometimes he's going to reveal that to you. And I think if you keep beating down that door, I think he will reveal it to you. But I think sometimes you can just get really strategic and be like, well, how have you built me? What do I like doing? What am I good at doing? And then just do that thing and you're playing your part. Maybe you're the first foot in the body of Christ, or you're the pinky, or you're the. You know, I don't know. You're the bicep. But. But we have a role in the body of. I hope I'm the bicep. I would love to be the bicep in the body of Christ, that's so sick. Like, you get to heaven, Jesus was like, yo, you were the bicep. Yes. Like, all the bros just like, yeah, oh my God, bro. And out with all the homies in heaven realizing you were the bicep and the body of Christ. Anyway, I'm getting weird now. I'm probably tired.
- [70:59]
A
No, no, but I think the metaphor that you're using is powerful because we can go down the therapy rabbit hole and be like, okay, like, you need to get healed. But the beautiful thing is that we don't have to wait till you get to this, like, ultimate arrived place of I'm, I'm clear, I'm peaceful, I'm this and this. Like, you can actually start to walk in the giftings and the things that God has called you to do today. And I think many times a lot of people will come to therapy because they don't feel fulfilled in their lives outside of wanting to heal from trauma and heal from the things in their family. There's a sense of deep emptiness that I've seen where people are looking for something to bring this sense of fulfillment. And they're looking for it in their marriage. They can't find it. They're looking for it in their kids.
- [71:54]
B
It's.
- [71:54]
A
They can't find it. They're looking for it in their job, still can't find it. And they feel this call. Like, I feel like God has called me to do something. But either a, I don't know what it is, which we know if the, the word says in James 1, if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God. And God gives generously, but don't be double minded, know he's going to reveal it to you. And then. But two, if you are in the place of, you're like, I just, just feel like things aren't really what I imagined my life to be. I feel like there's more. God is calling me to do something. Then look at what it is. Like, like you just said, Ryan, what it is that you like, what it is that you're good at, what could actually serve others and do it. Don't wait for someone like a pastor to give you a prophetic word and to lay hands at you. Like the Lord just downloaded to me. You are called to be an artist. It's like you knew you were artists, right? You don't need someone to prophesy that over you. Like, so go make art. Don't wait for someone to come up to you. Like, I've been looking for someone that can write A book around mental health. Yeah, I'm looking all of a sudden, God, just download it. It's you. Can you write a book on mental health? Like, right, just write the book on mental health. Like, write it. Like, don't wait for someone to find you or to value you. Do what God has called you to do. Build the vision that he's called you to build and watch the freedom and breakthrough that it only it doesn't just bring for other people, but it also unlocks something in you. Because if we can get back to the Garden of Eden of being able to walk with God, to operate in our dominion and our authority that he's given us over the earth, then we will see Christians operating in the fullness of God and changing the entire world. Because then it's not about a thing around like, oh, well, you know, I don't have the money in the cars or I don't have this like Ryan does, or I don't have this as Courtney does. But it's about you being in your own lane and you realizing it was never about being like somebody from the get go. It's all about being like Christ. So if I'm really about advancing the kingdom of God, my tagline should be follow me as I follow Christ, not follow me like on Instagram, follow me. It's no, follow me as I follow Christ because it's all about him anyway. All my gifts should be to point back to him.
- [74:31]
B
Amen. Amen. I think we got to end on that. That's. That's the line right there. Man, I feel like you're like a soundbite machine. This is, this was great. Dr. Miller, where can people find you?
- [74:47]
A
Well, you can either find me on Instagram, Dr. Courtney Miller, or if you are a woman who is looking of like, you know, I feel like God has called me to do something. I want to break off these mindsets, the things that keep me stuck. And I want to start walking in what it is that God has called me to do. Then you can also find me at the ThriveLife Co and I have a program that I just launched that's really about helping Christian women to activate their God given vision and not just to like stop there. Because one thing we didn't get to talk about today, Ryan, that I can talk all day, is how finances are actually one of the top things that keep people stuck in mindset of poverty and then their identity is then tied to, well, I don't have the money to do this. So my work is then tied to my bank account. But one thing I want to bring freedom into, especially Christian women, is how to use the vision that God has given you, the calling he's given you and to create income and serve the kingdom of heaven. It's not about us. It's not about us making money just to make money like you see all the business gurus. It's about us being able to say, my thriving life is so I can be present with my kids, so I can go and serve my church community. But we still got things that we have to take care of. We still have bills, we still have things that are real life. And if we could use all of our giftings to serve the world, then imagine how much can get done for the kingdom. So if you want to get in touch with me, you can always find me through my Instagram, through my YouTube. But if you want to go to my website, it's the ThriveLife co. Amen.
- [76:36]
B
Go check it out. The ThriveLife co. And if anybody hearing this has experienced like, oh, man, like talk, I feel stuck. We're talking about forgiveness, talking about anxiety. If you guys need any support, are they cool to reach out to you, Dr. Miller? Can they find you at that, that website or on Instagram as well? Yeah.
- [76:57]
A
But one thing is, while I'm not providing therapy right now, what I am focusing on is being able to launch people into action. Launching people from mindsets that might feel like, you know, if you're in the place of, I need healing to be able to break things off, like, definitely reach out and I can try to get you plugged in with another Christian therapist. Or even if you're not, if you don't just want a Christian therapist, you're looking for something else, I will be more than happy to support with getting plugged in. But if you're looking for more activation to move forward and breaking mindsets off, being able to build what God is calling you to build, then I'm your girl.
- [77:37]
B
Let's go. You can also go to sharethestruggle.org you guys know that, that, that's, that's our ministry. We've got dozens of licensed coaches and therapists who love Jesus. We want to learn how to take our thoughts captive, express our emotions, and then walk into the kingdom of God. That's kind of what we do over there. We've got coaches, we've got courses, we've got a bunch of different stuff, so check that out. But Dr. Miller, thank you so much for being with us. What an honor. Grateful for the friendship. I tell people this all the time. The coolest thing about the Jesus People podcast is I get to make new friends. So it's. It's great to be your friend.
- [78:08]
A
No, thank you, Ryan. I. Likewise. I'm so grateful.
- [78:12]
B
All right, guys, thanks so much for tuning in. We will see you next week.
- [78:16]
A
Bye. Bye.