Am I on Track for a 2028 Retirement?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Jill on Money with Jill Schlesinger

Episode: Am I on Track for a 2028 Retirement?

Date: February 19, 2026
Host: Jill Schlesinger
Guest: Allison from the Mid Atlantic (Federal Government Employee)

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Overview

In this episode, Jill Schlesinger takes a deep dive into retirement planning, specifically helping a federal employee, Allison, evaluate if she can comfortably retire at age 60 (in 2028) or even earlier, should a government buyout come her way. The discussion covers Allison's financial situation in detail, strategies for drawing down assets, the nuances of federal pensions and supplements, and the realities of life and spending in retirement. The episode serves as a practical, jargon-free financial consultation, rich with actionable tips for anyone considering early retirement—especially those in the public sector.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Engagement Philosophy

• Jill emphasizes her show's openness to all financial questions, regardless of the audience's wealth or situation.
• Notably, Jill and producer Mark discuss feedback about including emails and maintaining an inclusive and comfortable environment for listeners.
  • "We don't really care how much money, how little money, if you have or you don't have. What we care about is...you would like to ask us questions and you would like to get an opinion or maybe just understand what some of your choices are." — Jill (02:19)

2. Jill's Personal Anecdote

• Jill kicks off with a story about a lasagna-induced kitchen burn, providing levity and establishing rapport.
  • "I sustained a big injury on Super Bowl Sunday...I burned the heck out of my hand because I was reheating lasagna..." — Jill (04:16)

3. Introduction of Allison & Her Circumstances

• Allison, single and 57, joins from the Mid Atlantic; she works for the federal government.
• She uses a meal service as a treat and splurge to maintain healthy habits and avoid cooking for one.

Allison’s Main Questions:

• Can she retire at 60 and spend $7,000/month?

• If she’s offered an early retirement at 58, can she still spend $7,000/month?

  • "I would like to retire at 60. And do you think I can do that and spend $7,000 a month?...Could I retire and still spend that $7,000 with retiring about two years early?" — Allison (06:26)

4. Federal Pension and Retirement Details

• If she retires at 60:
  • Pension: approx. $3,000/month ($36,000/year)
  • Federal supplement until age 62 (~$1,300/month if retiring at 60, ~$1,100 if at 58)
• Early retirement at 58 would slightly reduce her pension, but the impact ($250/month less) is not drastic.
• She would maintain federal health coverage and pay her share—much more affordable than ACA exchange plans.
  • "I stay on my federal health care and I pay for it and they pay for their percentage and I pay for my percentage." — Allison (10:24)

5. Social Security Projections

• Age 62: $2,400/month
• Age 67: $3,400/month
• Age 70: $4,500/month
  • Jill suggests waiting until full retirement age (67), but notes Allison could claim earlier if health dictates.

6. Assets & Savings Breakdown

• Income: $163,000/year
• TSP (Thrift Savings Plan): $952,000 (split: 2/3 traditional, 1/3 Roth)
• Roth IRA: $140,000
• Brokerage Accounts: $445,000 (majority from inheritance, stepped-up basis at $375,000)
• Inherited IRA: $89,000 (must be withdrawn within 10 years under SECURE Act)
• Condo: Paid off, valued at $220,000–$225,000
  • Considering potential future move, possibly upsizing to a $400,000–$450,000 home or renting for $2,100–$2,600/mo
• Cash & sinking funds: $25,000 emergency fund, $45,000 set aside for vacations, home, car, etc.

7. Retirement Strategy Recommendations

Near-term (if early retirement at 58):

• Use inherited IRA withdrawals aggressively while in a lower-income bracket.
  • "Where I would get rid of the whole inherited IRA over the next...this year and next, just use it because that will be—that will supplement. I mean, it's taxable to you, right?" — Jill (16:21)
• Pension and supplement cover about $3,850/month, so draw down inherited IRA and then brokerage accounts to cover the $7,000/month spending.

Medium-term (59.5–67):

• Withdraw from traditional TSP/IRA as needed to supplement pension/social security.
• Use Roth and brokerage only if needed, preserving Roth for last due to tax advantages.

Long-term (67+):

• Begin Social Security at full retirement age for higher benefit.

• Continue drawing down TSP as needed.

• Possible additional income from assets if/when home is sold or downsized.

  • "We can kind of get you to your 59 and a half, which is...a magic number...But it also allows you to just, you know, satisfy getting rid of this inherited IRA." — Jill (16:40)
  • "Once you get to 67, you got your extra $3,500 a month from Social Security...it does not look like an issue. I think this works." — Jill (18:24)

8. Other Key Considerations

• Allison's frugal living (modest home, paid-off mortgage, careful spending) is a critical factor in making early retirement feasible.
• Open to moving, but Jill suggests waiting until the offer and retirement plans are concrete.
• No significant financial obligations for family, but may leave something for special-needs nephew in estate.
• Allison’s commute (1-1.5 hours each way) adds to her motivation for early retirement.
  • "There are not enough Jill on Money episodes for you..." — Jill (20:26)

9. Flexibility & Contingency Planning

• Jill counsels flexibility; should Allison’s health decline, she can always claim Social Security earlier than 67.
  • "If something bad happens or your health takes a turn, you get a weird diagnosis. You can always claim earlier...I want to give you that flexibility." — Jill (21:35)

10. Travel Plans & Enjoying Retirement

• Immediate travel plans: A dude ranch (“I've always wanted to do that since I was a little girl”) and a “big retirement trip” to Indonesia to see orangutans and komodo dragons.
  • "I also love the idea...Do the trips you want to do while you are young and healthy, because it just—it gets harder. It just does. So do that now." — Jill (22:11)

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Memorable Quotes & Segments

• [02:19] Jill: “We don't really care how much money, how little money, if you have or you don't have. What we care about is...you would like to ask us questions and you would like to get an opinion or maybe just understand what some of your choices are.”
• [06:26] Allison: “I would like to retire at 60. And do you think I can do that and spend $7,000 a month? And then...could I retire and still spend that $7,000 with retiring about two years early?”
• [16:21] Jill: “Where I would get rid of the whole inherited IRA over the next...this year and next, just use it because that will be—that will supplement. I mean, it's taxable to you, right?”
• [18:24] Jill: “Once you get to 67, you got your extra $3,500 a month from Social Security...it does not look like an issue. I think this works.”
• [21:35] Jill: “If something bad happens or your health takes a turn, you get a weird diagnosis. You can always claim earlier...I want to give you that flexibility.”
• [22:11] Jill: “Do the trips you want to do while you are young and healthy, because it just—it gets harder. It just does. So do that now.”

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Important Timestamps

• 03:25: Jill & Mark discuss show format and audience engagement
• 06:26: Allison’s opening question about retiring at 60/early retirement
• 08:52: Allison’s Social Security estimates
• 10:24: Health insurance coverage in retirement
• 11:22: Breakdown of assets, TSP, Roth, brokerage
• 16:21: Jill’s advice on inherited IRA drawdown and general withdrawal order
• 18:24: Jill confirms Allison's retirement plan is solid
• 20:20: Allison’s long commute adds motivation for early retirement
• 21:35: Advice for flexibility with claiming Social Security
• 21:52: Fun plans for travel in early retirement

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Tone & Language

• Friendly, approachable, and slightly humorous (Jill’s lasagna story, playful chiding about commute and travel).
• Focused on practical, actionable advice without financial jargon.
• Consistently inclusive and supportive of individual circumstances ("good for you," "you’re in great shape").
• Empowers listeners to believe financial planning is for everyone.

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Summary Conclusion

Jill enthusiastically assures Allison she is on track for retirement in 2028 (or even earlier, if opportunity arises), thanks to her diligent saving, modest lifestyle, and the stability of a federal pension. The discussion highlights strategies anyone considering early retirement can learn from—like sequencing withdrawals for tax efficiency, leveraging pensions and supplements, and keeping options flexible. The conversation ends on an uplifting note, championing the importance of enjoying retirement through travel and pursuing long-held dreams.

If you’re facing a similar crossroads, Jill encourages you to reach out for individualized advice and reminds all listeners to be proactive, thoughtful, and a little adventurous with their financial lives.

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Transcript

[A]

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[A]

Welcome to the Jill on Money Show. It's Thursday, February 19th and we are here trying to help you navigate your financial journey, whatever journey that you are on. And I think that I really just have to re emphasize this every so often. We don't really care how much money, how little money if you have or you don't have. What we care about is that you want to get in touch with us and you would like to ask us questions and you would like to get an opinion or maybe just understand what some of your choices are. And it just, it really makes no difference to us whether you're at the beginning of the journey, the middle, the end. If you're helping your parents, great. If you are just worrying about yourself, fine. Whatever is going on, we want you to feel comfortable getting in touch with us. And the way you do that is going to our website, jillonmoney.com you click the contact us button, you write us a note, and if you're shy and you don't think you want to join us on the air, that's okay. You just have to give us some detail. For the haters who hate when we do emails, hey, you know what? We're opening this up. We've got to at least give some people the ability to ask their questions, hear the answers. And I don't want to hear any guff.

[C]

Can I just say something there? There's been an overwhelming response of people saying that they very much enjoy the email shows.

[A]

Oh, is that right?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Because that one guy was, you know, that stuck with me.

[C]

Mark, for every one bad, there's 500 goods. So that's why it doesn't bother me.

[A]

That's so nice. And I like to do a little bit of everything, which is fine. And for everyone who wants us to be on YouTube and have video again, Mark and I made this decision a long time ago. Mark's like, we'll get more audience. And I said, but what about people who are just uncomfortable putting their faces on YouTube? I wanna make this as inclusive as possible. That's really the issue. Oh, by the way, Mark, I forgot to tell you something very important. I sustained a big injury on Super Bowl Sunday. Would you like to know more about it?

[C]

Yeah, I can't wait to hear.

[A]

It had to do with lasagna and I burned the heck out of my hand because I was reheating lasagna that I had made a while back, but I had was reheating it and I. And the bubble, it bubbled out and I got like an incredible burn, like a second degree burn, according to my friend Deborah, the dermatologist. So I'm wearing a big bandage around my wrist and I'm only sorry that I can't see you. So you feel bad for me, But Deborah said that is why you shouldn't cook for these kinds of injuries.

[C]

I would say that that's part of being in the kitchen.

[A]

That's it. Right? These are like the battle wounds. So anyway, I forgot to tell you that. And so with that said, again, we are so delighted that you join us every single day, Monday through Friday. If you would like a little bit more of Us then we do have a weekend show, which is called Money Watch. We do that on Saturdays and Sundays. You can actually subscribe to that wherever you get your podcasts. It's also through Odyssey. Okay. Now today we are talking to Allison, who joins us from the Mid Atlantic. Alison, are you a cook or not?

[D]

I am not.

[A]

And for this reason that you need to protect yourself against burns. Right? That's.

[D]

And I hate cooking for one person.

[A]

Oh, you know, okay. I just want to say that I don't have that issue, but I'm also married to someone who gets very bored. Like, she's like, oh, I don't want to have, like, a roast chicken again. I'm like, if you don't cook too bad, you're going to have to just take what the chef is making. Because sometimes I just got to make what I know. So what do you do? You order in. What do you do for yourself?

[D]

I have joined a meal service. They prepare it and ship it to me or bring it to me. It's a local area meal service, and they deliver it, like, once a week. And I get six or seven things. It's a little expensive, but it's kind of one of my splurges because I think I eat better if someone else is cooking.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting. Okay. I like that.

[C]

We know she's single, too, so this should be pretty easy.

[A]

I know. All right. So, all right. Why do you join us today, Ms. Allison, from the Mid Atlantic?

[D]

Sort of two questions. The first question is sort of the basic. I would like to retire at 60. And do you think I can do that and spend $7,000 a month? And then I work for the federal government, and there is a potential that I will be offered an early retirement this year. And could I retire and spend that. Still spend that $7,000 with retiring about two years early.

[A]

Okay, so how old are you?

[D]

I am 57 right now.

[A]

Okay, so tell. Do you know. I know that there's been so many government buyouts, layoffs. Do you know what you think, or do you think you know what the details of this could entail?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Give it to us.

[D]

Okay, so let me start with at 60. It's based on the numbers of years. That will be approximately 23 years for me if I would leave this year.

[A]

Hold on a second. So what about. Would that be? Give me an approximation of what you.

[D]

3,000Amonth, 36,000 a year.

[A]

Okay, 3,000amonth. Got it.

[D]

And then if I left this year, it would be based on less years. So it would. And my, potentially my high three might be a little bit lower, but in the environment we're in, I don't think my salary is going to increase a lot in the next couple of years. So that would be around 2750, 2,800.

[A]

Okay, so whatever. You take a $250 a month haircut, it's not the worst thing in the world. Right. And are you. Okay, wait a second. Some federal employees, do you have that? Do they give you little extra before you're eligible for Social Security or Medicare?

[D]

I will get my first supplement and the supplement would be about $200 also, and that goes until the time I turn 62.

[A]

Okay, so it's 200amonth until age 60?

[D]

Well, no, 200 less. It would be 1100 if I left this year and it'll be about 1300. But of course, if I go at 60, I'll only get it for two years. If I left this year, I would get it for more years.

[A]

I got you. So 1100amonth until 62. 1300amonth until 62. From 60 to 62 again, if you wait around. Okay, so we have that. These are all good things. We have the numbers. Great. So that's kind of the pension benefit. And you would also be entitled to Social Security eventually. Do you have those numbers?

[D]

Yes, if I go at 62, 2,400. If I wait till my 67, it's around 34, I believe, or 34 somewhere around there. And then if I go to 70, it's $1,000 more.

[A]

4,500. Okay. And how's your health like, how's your family health like, what's, what's going on for you?

[D]

I've got a really mixed bag of jeans. My dad just passed away a couple years ago at 90 and was fairly healthy until the very end. But my mom had multiple health issues, including Parkinson's, and he passed at 80.

[A]

Poor you and poor mom.

[D]

Yes, she. He was a trooper.

[A]

Okay. Do you have. So your parents are no longer with us. Do you have siblings you should be thinking about or worrying about in any way?

[D]

Only in the extent. I have nieces and nephews who, if my sister predeceases me, they would be, you know, my people. And one of my nephews is on the autism spectrum and is disabled. And so probably part of my estate will go to a special needs. If there is money there, I am not saving money for him. But if it's there, it will go to the. Probably the nieces and the nephews.

[A]

Okay, that's nice. Good auntie you are. Okay, so we've got some of those basics down and for health care. So let's say you get the offer this year. Hey, get out of here. Alison, what happens healthcare wise for you?

[D]

I stay on my federal health care and I pay for it and they pay for their percentage and I pay for my percentage.

[A]

Okay, got it. Great. And that's affordable, so that's certainly better than like sort of the private sector.

[D]

I looked at the exchange and it's much more affordable than the exchange would be for me.

[A]

Tell us about what you've saved in your career of 23 plus years. So we're, we're at your 21 now. So where have you socked money away?

[D]

I make about 163 a year. I am fully maxing out my tsp and the catch up and I am trying every year. I'm trying to do my Roth, my individual Roth contribution. I will be doing that this week for $8,000. My TSP is split 50. 50. So 50 goes to the traditional TSP and 50% goes to my Roth TSP.

[A]

How much money is in the traditional TSP?

[D]

Well, let me give you the full number and I know like the percentage.

[A]

Okay, do it.

[D]

So I have about 952,000 in the TSP and 2/3 is traditional and one third is Roth.

[A]

Okay, great. And then you also have your Roth, your just your Roth IRA. How much is in there?

[D]

About $140,000.

[A]

Do you have any old traditional IRA accounts floating around?

[D]

No, I rolled the only one over a couple years ago due to a unique circumstance.

[A]

Okay, Any other retirement assets?

[D]

No other retirement assets, but I do have other accounts.

[A]

Okay, let's do it.

[D]

Give it. All right. I have a. Well, I have two brokerage accounts in total. It's about 445,000. The main one. The majority of that came from an inheritance from my father. And the basis is about 375. And so total I have about 445. And then I have about 25,000 in my emergency fund and I have about 45,000 in cash that are sort of divided in sinking funds across multiple things like vacations, new car, some home improvements.

[A]

Et cetera, stuff that you know you're going to spend eventually. Okay. Okay, so you're. So I just want to make sure I understand this. So there's two brokerage accounts, one of which which total 445. The basis on one account is 375. This is what you inherited from your dad. So you Got a step up in cost basis. Right? Is that right? Okay. And so what's, what is that proportion worth now? When you say of the 445, what's from. What's the inheritance? 40. 440. Okay, gotcha. Great. Anything else? Did you inherit like property, rental property? Anything else?

[D]

No, it was all cash or cash equivalents.

[A]

Okay. What about your house? How much is that worth?

[D]

I live in a condo. It's worth somewhere in the 220 to 225. But there is a chance at some point during retirement I will want to move.

[A]

Where are we going? Let's take us on a ride.

[D]

With you staying in the general area, the condo that I'm in right now, there are certain amenities that are not available that I feel I will need in the future. Like a garage. Like I don't want to shovel my car out anymore.

[A]

Oh my God, I am so with you, sister. Oh. This winter will cure us all of that. And in that condo, do you have a mortgage that's outstanding or not?

[D]

It's paid in full.

[A]

Okay. And if you were going to move, how much would you, would you spend? The same amount. Would you, would it require. Would would or would you have to jump up to like 3 or 400,000? What do you think?

[D]

Big jump. If I bought, probably 4 to 4:50.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

Which may mean a mortgage. And if I rented, which I have thought about somewhere, $21,000 to $2,600.

[A]

And obviously if you were to jump up and purchase something and you have the ability to do it because you have money. Right. But the question is really, you want to make sure you want to stay in that area and maybe rental gives you a little flexibility. Okay, I got it. I'm sort of thinking this through. Is there anything else on the horizon or on the balance sheet that we should know about?

[D]

No car will be down the road. I've got money saved for the big vacations I want to take over the next couple years. So nothing huge unless I would decide to move. I would have to put a few thousand into the condo. You know, change the flooring, paint, those kind of type things.

[A]

So maybe one of the things that you would consider, I'm guessing about this. So let's say this deal comes up and it's this year, Right. Or it's any moment, we'll say. So we'll say that you will have income of 2,750, right. A month, plus the supplement of 1,100amonth. And we know that you have a target of 7,000 net to you. Right. And so the question is, where would the extra money come from? And I guess for you, you would potentially be looking at using the money from the brokerage account. Yes. Or was there something else you were considering?

[D]

Brokerage account. And I forgot one item. I do have an inherited IRA with $89,000 in it. I forgot. I apologize.

[A]

That's okay.

[D]

And I took the minimum this year, and I need to have the 10 years paid out by 2033.

[A]

Oh, but if your income goes down. Yes. Right. So we could certainly tap that. How much have you taken out this year so far?

[D]

I took out $2,300, which was the minimum.

[A]

Okay. So we have plenty of room here. All right. So if this were to occur, I think first, especially when you have very low income for the next couple of years, where I would get rid of the whole inherited IRA over the next. This year and next, just use it because that will be. That will supplement. I mean, it's taxable to you. Right. So it's like if you're getting 3,850amonth in income, then you take half the inherited IRA out this year, half next year, it's done, you're complete, no problem. And we can kind of get you to your 59 and a half, which is, of course, a magic number in many respects. But it also allows you to just, you know, satisfy getting rid of this inherited ira. And then we kind of look to the future and that, let's say you're 59 and you have the same 3850 coming in. And now the other question is, I don't even know if you'll need the brokerage account. But then maybe from, say 59 to 67, we start taking some of the money out of the traditional retirement assets. Don't feel like you have to convert everything. I mean, we could just pull it out. So the Two thirds of 600 grand or so that's in traditional, we can use that to live on. Right. For those, say, seven or eight years. And I think that'll do it for you. Then you get to 67, we've lost. I know we'll lose your $1,100 a month at 62. But like, once you get to, say, 67, you got your extra $3,500 a month from Social Security. But plus your. And the pension amount is indexed for inflation. Right. We do get a little bit more.

[D]

It's small index. Like we call it the diet cola.

[A]

That's great. I never heard that. Amazing. All Right, but we could still, you know, even if it's a small amount, you will then also have your Social Security of 3,500. And we just empty out the traditional. Let's presume we get rid of by the time you reach your 67. Let's say that the 300. Sorry, the 600 grand that's in traditional, we've depleted. You're left with your 300 or so of your Roth tsp, your 140 of your Roth IRA, and maybe dip into your brokerage a little bit, but it does not look like an issue. I think this works. Mark, do you think that Allison from the Mid Atlantic can take this early retirement offer if it comes? I mean, because, look, your luck is we'll figure out how to do this and then they'll say, no, we want you to stay. But I think if it were to come, it works. Don't you, Mark?

[C]

My only question is, where's the first vacation?

[A]

Oh, come on now. Let's get to this. Let's make sure we do this right.

[C]

So of course it works.

[A]

It works. Okay, now why does it work? Everybody listening? Because Alison has grinded it out with the federal government, put her years in. There's a pension benefit. She's been a good saver. She didn't buy some massive house that she had to carry. She is living well within her means and life is good. I think I want to preserve the idea of the move up in the condo until we really know whether or not you take this offer. If you don't get the offer, just out of curiosity, you will stay till 60, you think? Or do you think you'll want to just leave?

[D]

I will. Because I'll take less in my pension. A 5% ding for every year under 60.

[A]

So what do you think the odds are that you get the offer?

[D]

Not high. 25 to 30%.

[A]

And there's no sweetener for taking the offer?

[D]

No.

[A]

Sometimes that. Right.

[D]

Sometimes they do. They do. Like the 25,000. But the state that we are in and this environment we are in and the niches that they are trying to get rid of, they're not sweetening the deal anymore.

[C]

Allison also has a minimum two hour, usually maybe two and a half hour commute every day.

[A]

Stop it. Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no. That's not.

[D]

It's an hour each way, minimum.

[A]

I mean, there are. There are not enough Jill on Money episodes for you. What else? I hope you're listening to books on something.

[D]

I listen to Jill on Money.

[A]

I mean, that's. That burns up 15 minutes of your two hours, kid.

[D]

I'll go the back catalog.

[A]

All right. Keep listening to the back catalog. The. The ad company tells me that. That people do do that, so that's fabulous. Okay, Alison, there's no doubt you can do this, so I feel very comfortable. I think we'll wait to hear whether or not this is offered to you. If it is, then I think you kind of have the game plan, right? Use that inherited IRA. Use it up. Everyone listening. You know, you have 10 if you're. If you're not the spouse, you have 10 years to get the money out of your inherited IRA. It's so happens that for Allison, she'll be able to pull out a chunk, two chunks of money, maybe even three. We'll see at a time where she's potentially in a lower tax bracket, which is great. So you do that. Then we start pulling money out of the traditional assets, because you're going to have to anyway. Hopefully you deplete it. You claim at 67. If something changes. By the way, I just want to interrupt myself for a second, which is if something bad happens or your health takes a turn, you get a weird diagnosis. You can always claim earlier. Okay. It's just you. No one's claiming on your record. So I want to give you that flexibility. You're in great shape. All right, so now let's get to Mark's question. Where is the first trip this year?

[D]

I'm going to do a dude ranch.

[A]

Oh, nice. I love it.

[D]

I've always wanted to do that since I was a little girl and read books about people going to dude ranches.

[A]

Great. Fabulous.

[D]

The big retirement trip I'm planning for. I want to go see the orangutans and the komodo dragons in Indonesia.

[A]

Oh, my. You are not messing around, girl. Woo, baby. Okay, go for it. I love it. And I also love the idea. I've said this so often. Do the trips you want to do while you are young and healthy, because it just. It gets harder. It just does. So do that now. I'm sure that you're gonna be happy you did. And if you do get the offer, give us a holler back. We'll be interested in finding out. So thank you for whatever you do for the government because we need government workers, and we wish you the very best as the story continues to unfold. So if you are like Allison, and maybe it's not your choice, maybe some people are getting downsized, maybe there are big issues going on in your life and you're in your 50s, you're not sure if you can really do this. Maybe you need an off ramp. Maybe you're even younger and you just want to get out of whatever you're doing. Get in touch with us. Go to jillonmoney.com, click the contact Us button, write us a note. And if you'd like to join us live, check the box. Mark will do everything else. He is the very best executive producer in the whole wide world. Don't forget to check out our subscription service, Jill on Money Live. Next week is our big webinar with ed Slott. Thursday, February 26th. Check all that information out right on the website. All right, you can subscribe to us on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your favorite podcast. Please do something nice for someone else today. Change your work, change your wealth, change your life. Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you tomorrow. Hey gang. I just made a first time ever purchase on behalf of the pod. I was so psyched because Mark and I don't do a lot of promotional materials, but I was able to create a branded sweatshirt. Yep, a Jill on Money branded sweatshirt with vistaprint. Now I'm not usually good at these things, but Vistaprint made it simple to bring this idea like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if Mark and I could create some sweatshirts that we'll try out and maybe the listeners would want to get them as well. They've got these great design tools, they have fast shipping, human support if you need a little guidance along the way because the sweatshirts were so easy to execute. Now I'm thinking about doing some other stuff. Maybe there's some baseball caps or, I don't know, other fun stuff that you, you guys would want. You'll let us know. There's a reason that over a million people trust Vistaprint for their small business print needs. Vistaprint print your possible right now, new customers get 20% off with code [e-mail].

[E]

Go behind the scenes of one of TV's most watched true crime series with the 48 hours postmortem podcast where correspondents and producers take you inside each case. Every Monday, listen to a new episode of 48 Hours and then join me 48 Hours correspondent Ann Marie Green every Tuesday for a new episode of Postmortem. Follow and listen to 48 Hours on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.