Can We Retire in 2.5 Years?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Can We Retire in 2.5 Years?"

Jill on Money with Jill Schlesinger
Episode Title: Can We Retire in 2.5 Years?
Release Date: March 11, 2025
Host/Author: Audacy
Description: Host Jill Schlesinger, CFP®, delves into sometimes uncomfortable and controversial money and investing issues without the financial jargon. Each week, Jill takes listener phone calls and interviews informative guests to uncover surprising insights and provide actionable information for better financial decision-making.

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Introduction

In this episode, Jill Schlesinger explores the ambitious goal of retiring in just two and a half years. She welcomes Katherine from Seattle, who shares her and her husband's plans and financial strategies aimed at achieving early retirement.

Guest Background and Retirement Goals

[01:58] Jill introduces Katherine: "We're in the process of building a house and hope to retire in two and a half to five years."

Katherine and her husband, aged 56 and 59 respectively, are keen on ensuring they are financially on track to retire within a short timeframe. Their primary motivation is to refinance their construction loan for a new house, hoping interest rates will decrease in the coming years.

Current Financial Situation

Income:

• Katherine: Earns between $225,000 and $350,000 annually through a combination of base salary and commissions.
• Husband: Earns approximately $75,000 a year from full-time employment.

Assets:

• Primary Residence: Valued at $600,000 with an outstanding mortgage of $400,000.
• New Construction: Anticipated to be valued at $1.5 million upon completion, with a current construction loan of $805,000 at a fixed rate of 7.8%.

Retirement Savings:

• 401(k): Approximately $1 million.
• Savings Account: $225,000.

Dependents: The couple does not have children but owns three huskies.

Real Estate Investments

Real estate plays a pivotal role in Katherine and her husband's retirement strategy. They currently manage three rental properties:

1. Short-Term Rental 1:

   • Value: $1.5 million
   • Mortgage: $360,000 at 2.875% interest (Fixed)
   • Annual Gross Income: $175,000

2. Short-Term Rental 2:

   • Value: $775,000
   • Mortgage: $474,000 at 3.15% interest (Fixed)
   • Annual Gross Income: $175,000

3. Long-Term Rental:

   • Value: $525,000
   • Mortgage: $368,000 at 5.99% interest (Fixed)
   • Tenant: Their 76-year-old mother, ensuring reliable rental income.

[07:36] Katherine: "The short-term rentals generate about $175,000 a year."

[12:00] Long-Term Rental Details:

• Owned to support a family member.
• Mortgage: $368,000 with an interest rate of 5.99%.
• Tenant: Katherine's mother, who pays rent and maintains the property diligently.

Cash Flow and Expenses

Income from Rentals:

• Short-Term Rentals: Each generates $175,000 annually, totaling $350,000.
• Long-Term Rental: Provides consistent rental income, contributing to the overall cash flow.

Expenses:

• Operating Costs: Approximately $80,000 annually for both short-term rentals, covering mortgage payments, utilities, cable, repairs, and maintenance, especially given their oceanfront locations.

[10:26] Katherine: "But it's not bad. It's been really good investments."

Retirement Strategy and Financial Planning

Jill and her co-host Mark analyze the couple's financial plan, emphasizing the critical role of real estate in their strategy. They discuss the importance of maintaining flexibility in their plans, especially concerning fluctuating interest rates and the potential need to refinance.

Key Points:

• Diversification: While real estate is their primary investment, they have a substantial 401(k) which provides additional financial security.

• Expense Management: The couple estimates their household expenses at around $10,000 per month. This includes mortgage payments and other living costs.

[16:54] Mark: "What we need is your monthly spend, which is going to include your property, primary residence."

[17:52] Katherine: "Just to run our household, just to run everything is probably close to $10,000."

Potential Challenges:

• Interest Rates: High construction loan rates (7.8%) pose a risk. If rates do not decrease, refinancing may not be feasible, which could strain their financial plans.

• Property Management: Managing multiple rental properties requires time and resources. While the current cash flow is positive, maintaining and potentially scaling these investments could become challenging.

Advice and Insights

Jill and Mark offer strategic advice to Katherine and her husband, focusing on the following:

1. Flexibility: Be prepared to adjust plans if rental incomes increase or if the real estate market changes. For example, selling a high-performing property could provide additional funds or reduce debt.

2. Estate Planning: Emphasize the importance of having all estate documents in place, including provisions for pet care and the well-being of dependents.

3. Diversification Beyond Real Estate: While real estate is profitable, exploring additional income streams, such as Katherine considering a real estate license or a photography business, can provide financial cushions.

[15:14] Mark: "We need your monthly spend which is going to include your property, primary residence."

[19:12] Katherine: "We need to get our estate documents done."

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Katherine and her husband are well-positioned to consider early retirement, primarily thanks to their robust real estate portfolio. Their strategy hinges on maintaining positive cash flow from rentals and successfully refinancing their construction loan. However, they must remain adaptable to changing financial circumstances, such as interest rate fluctuations and the demands of property management.

Jill's Final Advice:

"Don't get attached to these things. If you can remain flexible and adjust your strategy as needed, you can achieve your retirement goals."

Notable Quotes:

• Jill Schlesinger [01:58]: "We're here to help you make better financial decisions by listening to your priorities and providing a roadmap to reach your goals."

• Katherine [10:25]: "Yes, it's the real estate that's powering this."

• Jill Schlesinger [19:07]: "I have a special fund to leave with my sister-in-law to take care of our pets."

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Key Insights and Actionable Steps

1. Leverage Real Estate Wisely: Real estate can significantly bolster retirement plans, but it's essential to manage properties efficiently and remain aware of market conditions.

2. Maintain Financial Flexibility: Always have contingency plans in place. If one strategy doesn't work, be ready to pivot to alternative solutions.

3. Prioritize Estate Planning: Ensure all legal documents are in order to protect loved ones and manage assets effectively.

4. Diversify Income Streams: Explore additional ventures or part-time work to supplement income and reduce reliance on a single investment type.

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For more financial insights and personalized advice, visit jillonmoney.com and explore the various resources available, including the "Contact Us" button for direct inquiries.

Transcript

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[Jill Schlesinger]

Welcome to the Jill on Money Show. It's Tuesday, March 11th and we are here trying to help you make better financial decisions. We're really just here to try to listen to what you'd like to do and listen to the priorities that you lay out and try to give you a roadmap and different routes to get where you want to go. It's like ways which route are you going to choose? Some routes are more direct, some are more windy. It doesn't matter to me, just it matters to me that you get in touch with us so that you're not on your own doing this. Even if you work with a financial planner, even if you work with an advisor or a broker and you just want another set of ears and eyes on a situation. Mark and I are here for you. We're certified financial planners. We took the test. We don't practice. We're just in this because we like talking to you. So let's make sure that you know how to get in touch with us. You go to our website, jillonmoney.com. you click the contact us button, write us a note. If you would like to join us on the air live, check the box. Mark will do everything else. While you're on the website, check out our subscription service. It's called Jill on Money Live. That is where for $45 for the next 12 months, you will have access to quarterly live webinars. There's bonus audio, there's bonus video content, and the entire back catalog, including our recent webinar with Ed Slott, you know, the master of all things Roth. So if you want to do that, just go to jillonmoney.com, see the link to Jill on Money Live, and you can subscribe. Okay. Right now, let's go talk to you. We're talking to Katherine, who joins us from Seattle. Hi, Katherine. How are you?

[Katherine]

I'm great, Jill. Thank you for having me on today.

[Fundrise Advertisement]

Of course.

[Jill Schlesinger]

What's going on? How can we help you out?

[Katherine]

Well, my husband and I have been kind of planning on retiring. Oh, probably like two and a half to five years. And I just wanted to make sure that we're on track.

[Jill Schlesinger]

So in two and a half to five years, would you would like to retire?

[Katherine]

Yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

And if you could make that happen sooner, like next year, would you want that to happen? Would you? In other words, if you could, would you?

[Katherine]

Yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay, so it's really like zero to five years.

[Katherine]

Well, okay, hold on though. We are and we're going to get into this, but we're in the process of building a house and we have to refi out of a construction loan. And right now rates aren't great. So I'm actually hoping to continue working until for a couple years just to see if rates go down so that we can.

[Jill Schlesinger]

You and Mark are hoping for the same thing. Katherine, how much do you earn?

[Katherine]

I'm on commission, so I earn anywhere from, oh, 2, 225 to 350 a year.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. I mean, do you have a base or. It's all commission.

[Katherine]

Base plus commission.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay, I got it. And how old are you, Katherine?

[Katherine]

56.

[Jill Schlesinger]

How old's the hubby? He is 59 and he's also working full time?

[Katherine]

Yes, he is.

[Jill Schlesinger]

How much does he earn?

[Katherine]

He makes about 75,000 a year.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Will either of you be entitled to a pension?

[Katherine]

No.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. It's okay. Make a lot of money.

[Fundrise Advertisement]

It's all right.

[Jill Schlesinger]

You may not need the pension. So you have some kids?

[Katherine]

We do not have kids.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. Got pets?

[Katherine]

We do kind Three huskies.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Oh, whoa. That's serious. Yeah, that's serious. Okay. I have little terriers. So when we run into huskies out in the parks, we're like, whoa. That's the real deal. That's a wolf, basically. Okay, so you're building a house right now. You. What is your current house? Would you have a primary right now?

[Katherine]

Yes, we do. Y.

[Jill Schlesinger]

How much is that worth?

[Katherine]

That is worth about 600,000.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Is there a mortgage on it?

[Katherine]

Yes, we owe about 400. It's just be. We pulled some cash out to help us with the build.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay, so tell us about the house that you're building, because that's obviously a priority. So where are you in the process?

[Katherine]

We're almost done.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Wow.

[Katherine]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. What will the house be worth when it's done?

[Katherine]

It'll be worth about 1.5.

[Jill Schlesinger]

So I see you did the real downsize here.

[Katherine]

Yeah, I know, I know.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Wrong way. Wrong way. Katherine, the outstanding mortgage, tell us about how that works on the current. On the. On the house you're building.

[Katherine]

Well, we've got a loan, a construction loan right now for about. It's going to be about. Well, the construction loan amount is 805.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay.

[Katherine]

Then we're hoping to, when the rates go down, take out more equity from our primary and put that towards, you know, just get the loan amount down on the house.

[Jill Schlesinger]

You're not going to. So. No, I just want to make sure I understand this. You're building a house, and it's a second home as opposed to. You're moving into it. You're not going to sell your primary.

[Katherine]

That is correct. Yeah. It's. It's in a. It's. It's like three and. Three and a half hours away from our house.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. This is like your fun summer, whatever, mountain house. Okay.

[Fundrise Advertisement]

What's the.

[Jill Schlesinger]

What's the rate of the construction loan?

[Katherine]

The rate of the Construction loan is 7.8.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Is that fixed?

[Katherine]

Yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay, now let's. Let's walk. Okay, so let's walk through a few other things. So we got the primary. We got the construction loan. The house is almost done on your. Let's just call it around 350 to $400,000 a year. Between the two of you, how is the cash flow carrying this new home?

[Katherine]

Well, we also have two short term rentals.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Tell us about that.

[Katherine]

Yeah, that's, that's worked out really well. In addition to the two short term rentals, we also have one long term rental.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Wait, you're saying you have three rental properties?

[Katherine]

Yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. Boy, you got a lot of real estate, you two. So let's do the short term rentals first. Rental number one, how much is it worth?

[Katherine]

1.5.

[Jill Schlesinger]

What?

[Katherine]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

My God. What's the mortgage outstanding?

[Katherine]

The mortgage outstanding is 360,000. About 361,000.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. And is that a cheap rental mortgage rate? Sorry.

[Katherine]

2.875.

[Fundrise Advertisement]

Yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

That's cheap.

[Katherine]

Yep.

[Jill Schlesinger]

That qualifies. Okay, what about the second short term rental?

[Katherine]

Okay, that one is worth about 775 and we owe about 474 on that one. And that interest rate is 3.15.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay, and what are these short term rentals generating in terms of rental income?

[Katherine]

The short term rentals generate about 175,000 a year.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Wow.

[Katherine]

Yeah, it's pretty great.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Amazing.

[Katherine]

But we're thinking that if we really work at it and get on different hosting software, that kind of thing, we can, we can bump that up probably to 200, 250.

[Jill Schlesinger]

What about the long term rental, what's that worth?

[Katherine]

That one is. That one's newer. That one is worth only about. Well, it's worth about 525 and we owe 368,000. The interest rate is 599. And that was kind of a. We didn't really want to do it, but it was for a family member.

[Jill Schlesinger]

And their rent got roped in. Catherine and her husband minding their own business. Oh, I need a place to live. So now I learn more about this. So the long term rental, I presume whatever you're generating in income, it's sort of covering the costs.

[Katherine]

Yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. And the, the 175A grand for the short term rental, is that the gross amount or is that the net to.

[Katherine]

That's the gross.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay, so with all this income and your current income. Right.

[Katherine]

Yep.

[Jill Schlesinger]

How's the cash flow?

[Katherine]

It's good.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Yeah?

[Katherine]

Yeah, it's good right now.

[Jill Schlesinger]

All right, good, good.

[Fundrise Advertisement]

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[Jill Schlesinger]

I'm going to a next. My next asset class. How have you guys saved for retirement besides these rentals? Is there money in a 401k and an IRA? What do you got?

[Katherine]

Yeah, we've got the. So the, the short term rentals were bought as part of our retirement plan. But right now we have about a million dollars in 401k. That's it.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay.

[Katherine]

And then 225 in savings.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. So really it's the real estate that is powering this, right?

[Katherine]

Yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Would you ever consider getting rid of one or more of these properties in the future? Even though there's great cash flow? Would you consider it simply to get rid of this construction loan, that house come up?

[Katherine]

That, that thought has come up, yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Only if, like, I mean, obviously if you don't have to, that would be great. Right? You're managing right now, so that's fine. What do you think? This is so fascinating. Cause you have a lot of real estate, which I know, like, has its own cost, but, like your spending on an annual basis. What do you think the spend for you?

[Katherine]

Boy, that's a good question.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Thank you.

[Katherine]

I want to know the answer to that.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Yeah, I know, I know. It's like stepping on the scale. You can do it. It's okay. I'll hold your hand.

[Katherine]

I, I, I don't, I don't even know. I, I don't know.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Mark, you want to take a whack at their spending or not?

[Mark]

I'm gonna say it's on the high side.

[Jill Schlesinger]

What do you think? I'm thinking 10 grand a month.

[Mark]

Yeah, I was gonna say 10 to 12.

[Jill Schlesinger]

All right, let's say it's 12 grand a month. I mean, they've saved a lot of money.

[Mark]

Yeah. Most of it's in real estate. Yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

But they had to still put that money out to buy these things. Let's say they both get done at age 59. At 59, would you be able. So let's just say at 59, if they had the income from the short term rentals and we sold the long term, Are we not able to sell the long term rental ever?

[Katherine]

Well, my mom lives there.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Oh, my God. Your mother lives there and she's paying you rent?

[Katherine]

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay.

[Katherine]

Yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Is she good, Is she a good tenant?

[Katherine]

Yeah, she is. She's actually a great tenant. Yeah, she's taking really good care of it. Yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. Okay. How old's mom?

[Katherine]

76.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Oh, she's young.

[Katherine]

Yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

All right, so then we really can't get rid of that because she's there. No, no, she couldn't live in the other the short term rentals anyway because. Yeah. Would you say that one or the other short term rental is a better performing asset? Like, is the 1 1/2 million dollar one a better performing asset than the 775 one. Like what do you think?

[Katherine]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

So that's the real keepers number one.

[Katherine]

Yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay. I'm trying to just see what happens if in the next couple of years you don't get to refi and how this floats. You know how this goes for you.

[Mark]

Poo poo you.

[Jill Schlesinger]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Mark needs a refi also. No, but I mean I. You have to root for a recession. Both of you. This is so interesting. So if it's 12 grand a month, let's just say that you can. I'm not even putting mom's stuff in here. Okay. I'm really not. Because I feel like you have the house for her whenever she, she's going to stay there as long as she can stay there, right?

[Katherine]

Yes, as far as I know, yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Right. So if you could get income, the gross income on the short term rental up to 200. What would you clear on that? Do you think they.

[Katherine]

So the both short term rentals, they probably cost us 40,000 a year for each one.

[Jill Schlesinger]

And that's 80 total.

[Katherine]

Yeah. And that's mortgage payments, cable, power.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay.

[Katherine]

Repairs are in addition to that because they're on the ocean. So we have to. There's a lot of upkeep and maintenance.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Right. You have to have like a sinking fund for that. That's why you have a big savings account, right?

[Katherine]

Yeah. So it's, it's just. But, but mostly it's. But it's not bad. It's. It hasn't been bad at all. It's been really. They've been really good investments.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Could you keep. Okay, let's say we had like the retirement scenario here. Like, let's say in a couple years you've got the, let's say two or three years, you've got the house, the new house with a construction loan refinanced. It's not going to be three or ever again. Okay. Let's just say you refinance it and it's like five and a half and it's. It's okay, right? Let's just do that. Would you still work part time? Would either of you keep doing something for a few years or not?

[Katherine]

Oh yeah, I would for sure. Yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

What do you think you could earn part time? Because I know commission based people, they're always in like they people want them.

[Katherine]

I, I'm thinking about getting a real estate license and, and then also starting a little photography business. That's kind of my side hustle.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay.

[Katherine]

So I figure with that, with those two things and the short term rentals, you know.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Yeah, I mean, listen, if you can get the income up to, I don't know, 200 to 225 grand for the rentals and then the, you know, the, the cost of running those rentals is 80 total. Right?

[Katherine]

Yep.

[Jill Schlesinger]

We're kind of in a good, we're in good shape. Right. That's, that's the bulk of your need will come from the short term rentals. If you can round it out with a little bit of money, you know, both of you, I don't know if, you know, he can do anything part time, but like just a little bit of extra, that would be great. And I think that obviously at some point all this real estate is going to be a hassle to manage. That said, you know, it's kind of a great side hustle that you have in and of itself, which is if you are part time real estate, you're now in the business and now you're probably a little bit more involved in making sure you have all these properties managed correctly at the right pricing. But I don't want you to buy any more real estate. You are a long real estate. My goal would be that whenever you decide to call it quits, couple three years, that the net income to you plus whatever part time income you have, that, that will basically meet your needs and then eventually, you know, you will, things will get a little bit better because, you know, eventually you'll claim Social Security for each of you and eventually you're not going to keep every single one of these houses. And maybe the mom's house is going to be sold eventually. But what we're hoping to do is not dip into your 401k at all, at all until later when you start to see whether or not these rentals are covering your needs. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Mark, is there a fly in the ointment of our plan? I guess it would be that interest rates stay at high levels and they just, you never get a chance to refi.

[Mark]

Yeah, that could happen. And I was gonna say, you know, we're also just assuming that they spend $12,000 a month. So you really, really need to figure out what exactly it is you're spending.

[Jill Schlesinger]

London, right?

[Katherine]

I don't think we're spending $12,000 a month. I mean, I. Do you mean with our mortgage payments too?

[Jill Schlesinger]

Yeah, with everything.

[Katherine]

Oh, yeah, that's probably. Yeah.

[Jill Schlesinger]

She's like, yeah, that's. That is actually. Yeah, that's right.

[Mark]

But you Were saying the rentals, it cost you $40,000 a year to run. Is that factoring in everything?

[Katherine]

Yeah.

[Mark]

Include. Include a mortgage.

[Katherine]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's the mortgage.

[Mark]

And okay, so. So then we, we need your monthly spend which is going to include your property, primary residence.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Yeah, all till we want everything all together.

[Mark]

Put them, put the, put their rental properties aside. We're just talking about, you know, what it costs to run your household. Residence.

[Jill Schlesinger]

What it is. Yeah.

[Katherine]

Okay, so just, just to run our household, just to run everything is probably. Oh, close to 10,000.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Ah, we were pretty close.

[Katherine]

Yeah. Yep.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay.

[Katherine]

We know we're gonna have to budget. I mean we.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Yeah, you don't have to budget. But you're. I think that you're gonna be okay. I really do. I just think that what we need to be careful about is that when you do this, it can't. I mean you. As long as you, you have to sort of be willing if you want to retire early, then I think what it requires is you being willing to shift if things don't work exactly the way we have planned. What do I mean by that? I mean that if all of a sudden these short term rentals zoom up in value and you could just take a chunk of money off the table and in other words, the equity is so much richer than whatever you could actually get in short term rentals. You sell one and you don't worry about it and you don't get married to these things. That's what I think is required if you're going to try to retire early. That if something goes wrong or if things get out of whack, you can be like, hey, I got this rental, I'm selling it.

[Fundrise Advertisement]

Goodbye, it's done.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Don't get attached to these things. If you can do that, I think you can retire whenever you want. I really do. If you sort of still like what you're doing, keep doing it. Do you like it or not?

[Katherine]

Oh, I love it. It's been a beautiful career.

[Jill Schlesinger]

It sort of feels like you're in very good shape. You have all your estate documents done?

[Katherine]

No.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Oh, come on. You know I was going to ask you that.

[Katherine]

I know. We need to get.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Yeah, you get it done. I mean, you got to make sure. Who would take care of the pets if something happened to you? I know, I know. We have a special fund. We leave it with my sister in law and we leave her extra money to take care of them.

[Katherine]

Wow, good idea.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Yeah, right?

[Katherine]

Yes.

[Jill Schlesinger]

I mean, just get that done. Please. Pretty please. Yes, pretty please. Okay.

[Katherine]

All right, I will.

[Jill Schlesinger]

You're done. We're done with you. We're done with you. You are going to go. Be careful. She's like, who is the most famous landlady, Mark? Would that be Leona? Leona Helmsley here in New York? If you want a throwback, it would probably be Ethel Mertz of I Love Lucy. I think Fred and Ethel were the landlord and the landlady. So we've just spoken to a very successful land person. Landlady. If you've got a question about how you can navigate rental property, certain part of your portfolio, your financial life has ballooned up in value versus something else. What you should be doing, how to think about it. Get in touch with us. Go to jillonmoney.com, click the contact us button, write us a note, and if you've not done your estate planning by the time you get on there, you know you're going to be chastised. That's okay, as long as you know it. Be very gentle. Don't forget that you can sign up for the free weekly newsletter on our website. It's right there on the front door. Mark does such a great job with it. You can subscribe to us on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your favorite podcast. Please leave us a rating and review wherever you listen. And please do something nice for someone else today. Change your work, change your wealth, change your life. Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

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[Jill Schlesinger]

Sometimes I wish I had a personal sommelier to guide me through the world.

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[Jill Schlesinger]

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