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- [00:00]
Jana Davis
Hey Fidelity, what's it cost to invest.
- [00:03]
Jill Schlesinger
With the Fidelity app? Start with as little as $1 with no account fees or trade commissions on U.S. stocks and ETFs.
- [00:11]
Jana Davis
Hmm.
- [00:12]
Jill Schlesinger
That's music to my ears. I can only talk.
- [00:17]
Fidelity App Disclaimer Voice
Investing involves risk, including risk of loss. Zero account fees applied to retail brokerage accounts only $0 commission applies to online US equity trades and ETFs and retail fidelity accounts. Sell order assessment fee not included. Some account types and securities excluded. Details of Fidelity. Com Commissions Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC Member NYSE SIPC I want to tell you.
- [00:31]
Podcast Host/Announcer
About another podcast I Can't Get Enough of. Giving Done Right is all about how to make an impact with your charitable giving and tackles the question every donor is asking, how can I make the biggest difference right now? With shifts in federal policy and funding in flux, nonprofits and civic institutions are struggling and your giving matters more than ever. You'll hear from philanthropic experts and major donors are who reveal how to maximize impact on issues from protecting democracy to supporting immigrants in crisis. Whether you give hundreds or millions, this show delivers knowledge that turns good intentions into real results. You can listen to Giving Done Right wherever you get. Podcasts.
- [01:18]
Jill Schlesinger
Welcome to the Jill on Money show. It's Friday, October 3rd and we are here trying to raise your awareness of of whatever is going on in your financial life and what's going on in the universe. And I'm excited. We don't usually do this on this show, but I'm excited to present somebody who can help lift the veil on the financial advice industry. We have a guest today. Her name is Jana Davis. I met her out in California when I was out at a conference of like these very impressive women advisors. She wrote into me after one of our shows and said like she was, she wanted to come on the air and she wanted to talk to me about some bit of advice that I had given to somebody. So it was a great opportunity to bring somebody who is just a great voice of the industry to talk about financial advice, to talk about what you should expect when you work with somebody, when you that person is trying to provide you with advice, not sell you something. And I just think it's a really good time to do this. I know as we come into the end of the year, the last quarter of the year, a lot of people will be looking at their statements and focusing on their investments and maybe saying to themselves, should I be doing something different? Should I be working with somebody different? This is a time to really consider that. So without further ado, here is our guest Jana Davis, a certified financial planner and a partner of Abacus Wealth. Welcome to this program. How are you?
- [02:48]
Jana Davis
Oh, man, I'm great. I'm great. I actually just get off a women's only race on a sailboat, so I'm feeling good.
- [02:58]
Jill Schlesinger
Wait, why are you sore? Because you're pulling in jibs and jabs and sheets and things like that.
- [03:02]
Jana Davis
Oh, for those sailors out there, they know exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, I'm bruised from head to toe, and I love it.
- [03:09]
Jill Schlesinger
Oh, my God. All right, well, okay, but everyone's got to have their thang, and this is your thang. I was reading your bio, which I did not realize this abacuswealth.com is the website, and you can check out Jana. We'll put a link to it in the notes. You started as an editor?
- [03:25]
Jana Davis
Yeah. You know, I went to school to be the world's best news producer. Yep. I was. I was. I worked for ABC News as my career of choice.
- [03:35]
Jill Schlesinger
Wow. And, boy, did you get out in the nick of time 20 years ago or something. Right?
- [03:40]
Jana Davis
You know, I was starting to get out. I mean, I was there for OJ on the 405. I was there for a lot of big things. But, yeah, I. I got out when I needed to get out for sure.
- [03:52]
Jill Schlesinger
And I just want to ask that you recount the story you tell about your entree into the world of financial planning. So can you share that with our listeners, just how you came into this world?
- [04:06]
Jana Davis
You know, I went through the news business. I was doing what I learned in college, but, you know, I found that it wasn't fulfilling because all you have to do is sit in a news decision morning meeting to understand. It wasn't what they taught you in college about really educating people. So, you know, I took some time off. And as I came to Hollywood to work in the biz, my partner really wanted a house. And I went seeking advice. And what I got was, hey, I think you need life insurance or you need this annuity. And I wanted to just know if I could buy a house. So I decided, well, educate myself. And as I got very interested in that and the small little stock my grandmother had given me, my edit books turned to financial books. I started giving advice. So I put myself back through school because my drive of the career change was I wanted to make a difference, and I found it in fee only. Planning and giving people a peace of mind is my whole goal in life.
- [05:08]
Jill Schlesinger
Amazing. I love that story. Like, I wanted. Just wanted to know, can I buy a House or not. And so can you explain to us fee only? Explain what that means and why it's important.
- [05:21]
Jana Davis
Fee only and fiduciary are the two words I'll throw there. But fee only means that you. I'm not getting paid by what I put you in. I'm like a lawyer. You're retaining me, right? You are paying me for my advice and expertise. So if I suggest you get life insurance is because I really think you need it, but I don't sell it. If I suggest you need to go get an estate plan, you know, the attorney's not in my pocket. I am looking at the universe of investments and financial vehicles that can help you with where you are at risk without you worrying that it's. I'm offering this. I'm suggesting something because I get some money in return.
- [06:04]
Jill Schlesinger
But you and Abacus in general, you do manage money for people. Is that right?
- [06:11]
Jana Davis
That's right. Absolutely. We do what most people call assets under management. Mm. We charge for the assets we manage. But I hate that that's how it's sold. Because that was my point of contention with you, is that in a very.
- [06:27]
Jill Schlesinger
Friendly and in a very friendly and loving way, I just want to say friendly.
- [06:31]
Jana Davis
Let's hash it out. Was. I don't just manage assets. In fact, that's like, not even the number one. I have an investment committee that. That. That spends their time looking at what we're invested in. I have the traders that make sure we are efficient and smart investments. To me, as. As I manage your investments is because I know you and I know the purpose of the money. So that's where you and I, we do agree. I know we do, but it's like, I'm not managing assets without comprehensive planning.
- [07:04]
Jill Schlesinger
Okay, so just to be clear, what Jana was reacting to is I was talking to somebody. One of you guys came on the air, and we were talking about something, and I basically said, I think I had a throwaway line, which was probably a little clumsy of me, I will say. But she's like, eh, you don't need to pay for asset management, and that's a commodity. And what Jan is saying is like, whoa. What I hear you saying, at least, is that the asset management is a means to an end to this thing called financial planning, which you are quite devoted to that process. And I completely understand that. And I think that for. For me, what I get nervous about is when people are paying assets under management, paying a fee for investment management, but they're not getting all the financial planning stuff. And that's still happening, isn't it, Jana?
- [07:53]
Jana Davis
Yeah. And that's where I had to back off my fire and brimstone. Right? Is that to you? Because then I listened again and I'm like, she is right. I. Oh, wait a minute.
- [08:03]
Jill Schlesinger
Hold it. Isolate this mark. So, okay, great. Thanks, Jill.
- [08:07]
Jana Davis
Jill is correct. She gives great advice, but it is that fine line. I do not like when people come to me, they're paying an asset under management fee. And I'm like, well, why aren't you talking to your person about this question you have? And they're like, oh, they just manage my money. I'm like, then leave.
- [08:25]
Jill Schlesinger
Right, that's right. That's exactly it.
- [08:29]
Jana Davis
Or the simple question, Jill, right? Is someone come to you and say, I just inherited, you know, $500,000. What should I do with it? I'm like, well, wait, wait, wait. What's its purpose? What does this mean to you? Money needs a purpose before I know how to invest it for you.
- [08:47]
Jill Schlesinger
I was very struck by the idea when you just started this conversation about saying you wanted to make a difference. And I often believe that it is the financial planning process that makes the difference. And so I think that I am also somewhat jaded because I come from a. My deep trading heritage. You know, my father and my brother in law and my uncle, and I started my career that way. And there was a certain amount of, I don't know, it was sort of draped in sort of this like, oh, yeah, he's a great trader, or yeah, that's a. That person really knows how to make money. And then slowly but surely, I realized it was nonsense. I mean, there are some people who are legitimately great traders for themselves. They rarely will do it for other people. But it's a tiny number of people. I think that in my experience being a financial advisor at one time, but also talking to all these people now over the last 15 years to really understand that many of the great things that happen to people in their financial lives have very little to do with investment management. They have to do with dealing with somebody who's hearing what they're saying and crafting a game plan that is adaptable, that can help them get where they want to go. And so I guess the question is, Jana, if. If somebody is out there and they're working with an advisor, quote unquote, who's really just a money manager, what do you think is the most important question that they need to ask themselves in order to give themselves permission? Because often, you know what they'll Say, they'll be like, oh, but he's so nice. He takes me out for golf and it's hard. So what's the question to ask yourself about this? What can we do to help people get to another place?
- [10:38]
Jana Davis
What about your money keeps you up at night?
- [10:41]
Jill Schlesinger
Oh, I like that one. And when you ask that question to yourself, what do you. Or if you think about your own clients, what do you think is the answer to that question often?
- [10:51]
Jana Davis
Well, because my clients have been with me for so long, they say nothing keeps me.
- [10:56]
Jill Schlesinger
You know what I mean, in the.
- [10:56]
Jana Davis
Beginning, in the morning.
- [10:58]
Jill Schlesinger
Yeah, exactly.
- [10:59]
Jana Davis
So, you know, it's one of the questions I ask prospects as well. Like, and I do, you know, all joking aside, I ask. Clients have been with me, you know, 15 plus years, and I still ask. And sometimes when we, you know, one of our meetings isn't like hardcore agenda is like, all right, tell me right now, what's keeping you up? What should you be calling me about? Because the point is, if there's a lot of things about your finances that you. That's kind of making you worry, then you should question the financial advisor you're paying fees to.
- [11:36]
Jill Schlesinger
What about the idea that there are people out there that are serious, do it yourself, or some of them are listening to this show? What about their ability to execute? I think that that was also the issue that I think that you called into question the ability of many people, not all, because there's, you know, there's obviously plenty of people who are managing their own financial lives. What are the. Some of the pitfalls of saying, I got this, I don't want to pay the 1%, the half a percent. I don't want to pay the fee to get the plan done. I got it myself. What are some of the pitfalls that you've seen when they come in on the other side of that decision?
- [12:14]
Jana Davis
Well, let me preface by telling you that I've come from the opposite land of you to reach my cfp. I was an hourly only. Everyone can do it their self. Here's the binder of your life. Go take care of it. Only to understand how much time I was wasting because it wasn't getting done. We are, we're terrible, naturally, we are terrible at investing. When the markets go down, we want out. When they're up, we want to buy in more. Right?
- [12:42]
Jill Schlesinger
Yep.
- [12:42]
Jana Davis
So even to our own wilds, we're bad at it. So as I get back to your real question, but that's why I want to preface that that's where I Come from hourly, didn't work. Do it yourself. There was too much that goes on later that I wish I could have been there for them. But instead they gave me what they paid me one time and they're like, okay, we're good. We've got our life, our strategy. But life doesn't happen in a linear fashion. So that's where you know. And when I think about even the person that like was listening to you and then came to me, we did, we did a, we did a one time plan. It was a big question about should they leave work or not. And we, we, I, I nailed it. You know, we, we spent time together, we figured it out. But what she really needs now is ongoing management. And the reason being like I thought I saw things that were missed in taxes. Now that she's left to work, where's the money coming from? You know? Yes, I can tell you the strategy. Take X from pre tax X from your Roth if needed. I hate taken from Roth until I have to. But where's all the tax games we have to play now? Oh, you're going to turn 72 in a few years. Well, now we've got a different story. Like there's so much the tax bill that came out, I have to dig in and read that and see how it affects my clients. If you're a do it yourself or one time client, I'm not thinking about you.
- [14:11]
Jill Schlesinger
I think that there's something very important there which is a one and done. I almost feel like there are. It's such a narrow thing. You're right. Like I'm going to make this decision. Like someone can say I want to hire someone by the hour to say can I leave or not. But as you said, many things will change externally, but also internally. And then, you know, maybe this person will come back to you, maybe they won't. I often will hear from folks who are trying to make a pension election. That's another error. Like it seems like it's a one and done thing, but you make the election and then life happens. Right.
- [14:44]
Jana Davis
As you were saying that, I was thinking about two of my very favorite clients because I get it, like managing money is about trust more than anything else. It's very, very personal. And so I am open when clients first want to come in. Prospects kick the tires. We'll do a financial checkup. Spend a couple hours with me. Let me take a look. Almost kind of what you do, only with, you know, sitting across the desk and yeah, like I'll, I'll say here, here's your answer here. But have you thought about this, this, this and this? And it's not intentional to, like, close a deal and get a new client. I've got plenty of clients. It's about. Have you thought about these other places you're at risk? And some of my favorite clients and some of my biggest clients, mind you, came from that checkup. Came from opening the door to have you even thought about this, this and this.
- [15:37]
Jill Schlesinger
You know, fiduciary, which means that the financial professional has to put you the client's interests or the prospect's interest before his or her own and also the company's. But there are a lot of fiduciaries out there who still give lousy advice. What explains that?
- [15:53]
Jana Davis
What explains that is the world is imperfect.
- [15:56]
Jill Schlesinger
Oh, darn it.
- [15:57]
Jana Davis
You know, I can put my initials behind my name, but that doesn't really mean anything. But I have an education, right? I mean, that's why it's about trust. It's about trust. You know, not every financial advice. We're not perfect, though, by the way. I learn just as much from my clients as they do me. But usually it's more about life, as I tend to have. I have five clients that are over 95 at the moment, two of them on hospice. I plan to be there till the very end. You know, like, some of the things I. I was a do it yourselfer. I get it. The person that found me because of you is a do it yourselfer. And she's holding on to it so tight. And as hard as it is for me to see all the other things we could be doing long term, I'm letting her fly. Yeah. You know, I'm letting her figure it out. But when I think about one of the big ones, even for my clients, as they really get to the paradigm shift, as they really enter work optional life, I refuse to call it retirement. It's too scary for everyone, Right?
- [16:54]
Jill Schlesinger
I like work optional. I'm stealing that. Hold on. I got to make sure I read it. Work optional. Okay, continue.
- [16:59]
Jana Davis
Yeah. So as they get to. We've been planning for them, as they get to that work optional life, they're towing into life beyond the. The, you know, punching the. The clock. One of the first questions I get is, where's the money going to come from? And at first I roll my eyes like, have you been listening to me for 10 years? And then I'm like, I get it. That fear takes over, that scarcity mindset. But that's why I'm there for them. I'M like, we're going to take a little here, a little here, a little here, because. Because that's how it's tax smart. And so basically what I've started to say to clients as they enter work optional, AKA retirement world is congratulations, you're hired. I will be sending you your paycheck. Now go have fun.
- [17:42]
Jill Schlesinger
Yeah, exactly. And don't spend this period of time perseverating over your money when I have proved to you 12 different times that you're fine. I mean, I guess that that's just again, that's the fear. And often I'll hear from people where one person in the couple feels convinced the other one doesn't. I also think that that is an incredibly important moment to actually talk to somebody who is impartial, who can look you in the eye and look your partner in the eye and say, we got you. You guys have done all the hard work. All we're going to do is kind of just churn through this and spit it back out to you. You've created this wealth, we haven't. And that's important. It's very easy for me to be cavalier about, you know, oh, you know, money management is just a commodity, but this part is not the money management is a commodity that is well taken care of by others who do it better than I do. I'll just say that. And I would then say that the most important thing is to create a plan that is adaptable, that can lead, live and breathe and change as you change and as circumstances change. Have you ever had a client interaction where you've laid out the work optional life, but they're unconvinced all of the time.
- [19:06]
Jana Davis
How do you overcome that?
- [19:07]
Jill Schlesinger
I am big.
- [19:08]
Jana Davis
I am big on our money stories. I'm big on, you know, the emotional. I don't care if you have $5 or $5 million. You have an issue with money because you're either an overspender, an over saver, you have a scarcity mindset, or you win Those rock stars that thinks it will all just work out in the end, I have them all. And my job is to understand what triggers them so that I can keep them in their seat so that I can help them understand how to get where they want to go. And some of them don't even know where they want to go. That's fine, I'll figure it out with them.
- [19:42]
Jill Schlesinger
Well, that's why, I mean, it's like.
- [19:44]
Jana Davis
Saying behavioral finance, right? Behavioral finance, yeah.
- [19:47]
Jill Schlesinger
I mean, it's so funny because it's why? You know, if you talk to a shrink and they're like, what brings you in? And you're like, I don't know, like, I'm here, maybe something happened. Maybe I'm getting divorced. Maybe something, maybe I got an issue with my parent, whatever. But a great shrink will draw out of you while you're there. You're there. You showed up. Someone got into your office. Someone is now the role is not somebody who figures out, how do I separate you from this account and bring it here to me? It is to say, what is it that you hope to accomplish? What do you want to do? I think that people wish that there was some master checklist that they could go through without feeling the emotions associated with money. And I think that's what is misunderstood about this entire topic, that people cannot quite figure out this idea that, as you say, we come with our own money stories. I mean, I wrote a book about that. That's why I wrote the first book, which is called the Dumb Things Smart People do with Their Money. Not because they're dumb and not because someone just sold you something, but often because they cannot understand the emotional aspect of what we are calling financial planning. And to some extent, Janet, that's what you do. It's like, yeah, you have all the training in the world, but your role is definitely to sit in the seat and help guide your clients, right?
- [21:13]
Jana Davis
Oh, I mean, Jill, they. What I say is that they don't teach you this in CFP school. Not as anything as a CFP school, but they don't teach you the therapy side of it. And what I love about your, your podcast and your books are that you, you just smack it down to the simple, right? You, you're like, no apologies here. This, this, this, right and that. We have to cut through it to get to where we want to go. But you've got to pause. I've got to pause with people and I've got to get there even when I have the eye roll from one of the spouses, like, just tell me the, you know, the beta and the risk. You know where I'm at risk. Like, I'm still going to pause. Where are we coming from? Because I can give you all the advice in the world about how to save, but then learn that you're an over saver as it is right now. I've just, now I've just really led you in the wrong direction. But don't let me, like, don't let me disrespect my traders and my investment department that does all the hard work because you know what my traders are doing, they're looking, when the market takes a dump for a day, we're looking to, you know, loss harvest. We're, we're looking to constantly rebalance when international assets. So don't let me step too far away from the importance of the investments because that's why we have full time jobs is the little things you don't see behind the scenes. Where we are, you know, we're selling high, buying low because we're in a rebalanced mindset where we react to a market drop to know, you know, what we can loss harvest for future. There's still a lot of pretty cool stuff that goes on there too.
- [22:53]
Jill Schlesinger
That's true. And you know, listen, I can walk out on that stuff. But I also think that because the industry does such a ridiculously, you know, overemphasizing of like delivering alpha of like I'm going to beat the market, which is so silly that I feel like I go the opposite direction. But you're absolutely right, there are opportunities everywhere. Right when markets are going down, it's the end of the year and we're like, wow, maybe we should be thinking about converting to a Roth here because these values are down. You know, all of those things are important. And you're right, we can't shortchange that. What are, what are questions that people should ask new they're going to go sit down with someone like you, a financial advisor. What are some of the questions that you think are important that the prospective client asks of any financial professional that they are talking to?
- [23:44]
Jana Davis
Well, I mean, it's the easy one to answer. But yes, I think are you a fiduciary is very important. Follow the money first and foremost. Get it out of the way. How are you paid? Absolutely. Go ahead and just attack that one head on because I'm always more than happy to answer that question. And if you have someone that gives you a long winded answer, you might want to look twice.
- [24:07]
Jill Schlesinger
So how are you paid? Are you a fiduciary? And then how about give me a third one that you like, maybe a more a squishier one that people might not think about.
- [24:16]
Jana Davis
Yeah, it's like, what, what does planning work look like for you? Like, what should I expect from you when I'm talking about planning? How often do we meet? You know, like, I want you to get into this mushy stuff of, you know, what, what are your priorities? When I tell you about my situation, I like the squishy stuff, but I can handle both. But I would say don't be afraid to ask those questions. Like, I'll ask a prospect. What does it look like in a year for you to think this was a good idea to come work with me? What happens within our year together that you're like, yep, great idea. You know, so ask your advisor that same thing. Like what, what looks like a success? What do you look for in a relationship with a client? I mean, I'm interviewing clients as much as they're interviewing me.
- [25:05]
Jill Schlesinger
Do you, do you ever say I have a no, a hole rule? Or do you just know that, you know, they, they, they can read between the lines when you know that? No.
- [25:13]
Jana Davis
Well, I come, you know, working at Abacus Wealth Partners, we are not shy. We are not for everyone. We believe in impact investing without giving up return. We believe that our clients understanding enough for them means they can be philanthropic. Every one of my clients has a donor advised fund. Every one of my clients is talking about not only their own estates and their children's inheritance, but how they can make a difference. So when a client comes into me and they're only focused on beating the S&P 500, they can go elsewhere because we think in a different way than that. There's so much more we can do.
- [25:48]
Jill Schlesinger
Okay. If you've got any questions about the type of person you're working with for financial advice, maybe you're working with a salesperson. Maybe that's bad. Maybe that's good. If something like that is going on in your head as you've listened to this interview, get in touch with us. Go to our website, jillonmoney.com, click the contact us button. Write us a note. Check the box. If you want to come on the air live, you can always sign up for the free weekly newsletter that comes out every Friday. Mark does a great job with it and you can also subscribe to us on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Our music is composed by Joel Goodman. Mark Tularcio is our executive producer and the king of all things web. We are distributed by the fine folks at Odyssey. We ask that you put your hands, metaphorically on someone's back. Someone needs a pat on the back, a boost up, something that can really help them. It will make you feel good and. And will make them feel good. Change your work, change your wealth, change your life. Thank you for listening. We'll talk to you on Monday.
- [26:52]
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Nancy Cartwright
Hi, I'm Nancy Cartwright. You may know me better. As the voice of Bart Simpson on Simpsons Declassified, we're diving into the mysteries that keep the Simpsons forever young. Have you ever wondered how the Simpsons regularly predicts future events? Who better to ask than the show's creators, performers and writers, the celebrity guests? Be sure to follow and listen to Simpsons Declassified wherever you get your podcasts.