Lump Sum or Monthly Payment?

Summary

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Jill on Money with Jill Schlesinger

Episode: Lump Sum or Monthly Payment?
Date: May 21, 2026
Host: Jill Schlesinger, CFP®
Podcast by Audacy

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles a big retirement question faced by many: Should you take your pension as a lump sum or as a monthly payment? Jill Schlesinger advises a listener making this decision, offering practical advice, clear explanations, and a reality check on additional financial planning concerns like Social Security timing, mortgages, and supporting grown children. The episode balances the math and the emotion around retirement decisions, ultimately highlighting the need for comfort and predictability in income as you transition away from work.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing the Money Moves Podcast (03:04)

• Jill and producer Mark discuss rebranding their Money Watch podcast as “Money Moves”, targeting listeners between 25-45 at the beginning of their financial journeys.
• Quote:
  “We really want to focus the program on people who are in the beginning of their financial journey rather than the middle towards the end.”
  — Jill (03:18)

2. Listener Call-in: Scott from Washington State (04:53)

Scott’s Situation

• Age 60, planning to retire within a year.
• Married, spouse still working and likely to continue until Scott claims Social Security at 62.
• Employer offering pension as lump sum or monthly payment.

The Pension Dilemma (05:01-06:33)

• Lump sum offered: $524,388.
• Joint and survivor payout: $2,847/month for life (survived by spouse).

Financial Snapshot (06:43-09:03)

• Scott’s 401(k): $763,000.
• Wife’s 401(k): ~$180,000.
• About $15,000 in savings; no taxable brokerage investments.
• Home valued at ~$965K; $180K mortgage at 5.25% with 8 years remaining.
• Scott earns $138K; wife earns $150K (hospital worker); both are contributing to retirement, but not maxing.
• Estimated monthly spending: ~$8,000.
• No additional real estate; some future inherited property; no financial dependents besides each other.
• Ongoing payment of $1,000/month on a $100K Parent PLUS student loan for daughter, who is now a stay-at-home mom.

Investment and Retirement Support (10:18-13:01)

• Recently started using Edelman Financial for portfolio advice.
• Edelman said, “you can go” on retiring but Scott hasn’t yet asked their verdict on the pension buyout.

Social Security Discussion (12:02-16:10)

• Scott plans to take Social Security at 62; Jill strongly advises waiting if healthy.
• “If you are in good health, it usually makes the most sense to claim at your full retirement age.”
  — Jill (12:55)
• Estimated benefits:
  • At 62: $2,744/month
  • At 67: ~$3,500/month (guestimate)
  • Wife: Possibly $2,500/month at full retirement age; she has just enough work history to qualify.
• Jill emphasizes value of inflation-adjusted income and long-term security.

The Emotional Side of Annuities (15:49-16:10)

• Jill presses Scott: Is the peace of mind from a monthly check more important than the flexibility of a lump sum?
• Scott admits the steady payment aligns with his comfort.
• Mark agrees:
  • “I’m leaning taking the monthly payment, especially, you know, given that it’s still a nice amount with the full joint and survivor benefit.” — Mark (16:16)

3. Jill’s To-Do List for Scott (16:25-19:29)

• (1) Confirm with employer if the monthly pension payment has a cost of living adjustment (COLA).
• (2) Ask Edelman Financial for a direct comparison analysis (lump sum vs. annuity), stating you prefer monthly income for stability.
• Use retirement drawdown strategy: supplement early retirement years with savings or 401(k) withdrawals as needed, especially before claiming Social Security.
• Estate planning reminder: Use all employer-provided benefits, legal services, and make sure estate documents are in order.

Notable Exchange:

• On self-managed investments:
  • “The money management, you were doing just fine.” — Jill (18:53)

4. Family Support and Uncomfortable Decisions (19:29-20:22)

• Scott and his wife pay a $1,000/month Parent PLUS loan for their daughter, who no longer works outside the home. Jill gently questions this, but honors the family’s wishes:
  • “As far as I’m concerned, your wife rules on this, okay? So I’m not getting in the way of this.” — Jill (20:22)

5. Final Thoughts: Key Takeaways for Scott

• Strongly consider the pension monthly payment—especially with survivor benefits and possible COLA.
• Wait until full retirement age (67) to claim Social Security for maximum, inflation-adjusted benefit.
• Use existing savings and wife’s income to bridge any income gaps before Social Security kicks in.
• Ensure all estate and planning documents are finalized before leaving the workforce.
• Family financial support decisions (like Parent PLUS loans): honor your values but be clear on their impact.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the new Money Moves podcast:
  “We really want to focus the program on people who are in the beginning of their financial journey.” — Jill (03:18)

• On Social Security timing:
  “If you are in good health, it does make sense to wait until your full retirement age... presuming you live into your 80s, which by the way, if you’re in good health right now and you’re 60, you probably will.” — Jill (12:55)

• Mark’s take on pension payment:
  “I’m leaning taking the monthly payment, especially, you know, given that it’s still a nice amount with the full joint and survivor benefit.” — Mark (16:16)

• On emotional comfort vs. math:
  “How do you feel like about having that dependable check? Part of this is about your feeling. It’s less math.” — Jill (15:59)

• On meddling with family decisions:
  “As far as I’m concerned, your wife rules on this, okay? So I’m not getting in the way of this.” — Jill (20:22)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | | ---------- | -------------------------------------------------------------- | | 03:04 | Announcement: Rebranding podcast as "Money Moves" | | 04:53 | Listener Scott introduced; pension buyout dilemma | | 05:01 | Details of pension lump sum vs. annuity option | | 06:43 | Full overview of Scott and wife’s financial situation | | 10:18 | Use of Edelman Financial, financial advice sought | | 12:02 | Social Security strategy discussion | | 15:49 | Discussion: Comfort with annuity vs. lump sum (“feelings”) | | 16:25 | Action steps: COLA, run numbers, estate planning | | 19:29 | Parental student loan and the emotional side of money choices |

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Summary Flow and Tone

Jill's accessible, conversational style breaks financial decisions into actionable pieces while keeping empathy front and center. She and Mark respectfully nudge Scott toward choices that maximize security and peace of mind while honoring his (and his wife’s) personal values and comfort with risk.

The episode closes with reminders about maximizing employer benefits, updating estate plans, and a gentle pitch to attend a Social Security webinar for deeper learning.

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For listeners: This episode offers a real-world look at a family’s retirement crossroad, demystifies complex decision points, and captures the human side of planning for financial independence. Whether you’re facing a similar lump sum/annuity dilemma or just thinking ahead, Jill’s mix of practical advice and plainspoken encouragement is invaluable.

To ask your own question or join Jill on air:
Visit jillonmoney.com and click the “Contact Us” button.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Jill]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Jill]

Welcome to the Jill on Money Show. It's Thursday, May 21st and we are here answering your financial questions. If you have one, just go to our website jillonmoney.com in the upper right hand corner, there is a contact us button. When you click that button, a form will pop up. That is the email that we receive. And if you would like to join us on the air live, then all you need to do is check the box. Now, just big announcements here in that we're launching a brand new web show. Are we calling it a web show or another podcast? Mark, what do we want to call this show?

[Mark]

I would just say we're rebranding the Money Watch podcast.

[Jill]

Okay. We are rebranding the Money Watch podcast. Okay. So we have another podcast which we have pretty previously dropped on the weekends. We are rebranding that. It is going to be called Money Moves. And Money Moves is going to have a video component. So if you are too shy to come on audio, you're certainly going to be too shy to come on video. But we are trying to really focus Money Moves on people who are, let's call it 25 to 45. Okay. So if you've, you're going to want to listen anyway, you're going to want to watch. Anyone can join. But we really want to focus the program on people who are in the beginning of their financial journeys because so many of you are like, incredible, you've done an amazing job. But we really thought that it would be smart for us to try to cater to a group of people who is more at the beginning of their financial journey rather than the middle towards the end. So the way that you can subscribe to Money Moves is by subscribing to Money Watch because the feed's gonna just turn over and become Money Moves. And we'll have all the exciting news about which YouTube channel. I don't know if it's gonna live on our YouTube chann, the CBS or Paramount YouTube channel. I don't know a lot yet, but I know that we've been having fun making the show. And the most important thing is that one of the, one of the people involved in the show said to me when he met Mark in person, oh, he's so handsome. You like that Mark, didn't you?

[Mark]

Yeah, I never really get that. So I'll take it.

[Jill]

Yeah. What do you mean?

[Podcast Host]

You're such a good looking guy.

[Jill]

Stop it. Anyway, check it all out. You know, one way to stay abreast of all of the information and all the things that we're doing is to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter which comes out on Fridays, which would be tomorrow. Okay. Right now let us go talk to one of you. It is Scott who joins us From Washington State. Hey, Scott, how are you?

[Scott]

Morning.

[Jill]

What's going on, man?

[Scott]

Oh, not much. Have a. Had a question on buying out a pension.

[Jill]

Oh, has somebody. Has your employer offered to buy you out?

[Scott]

Yes, they can. They can take it either way. I can take the pension or I can. They've offered a buyout.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Scott]

Just makes me a little nervous.

[Jill]

Scott, how old are you?

[Scott]

I'm 60.

[Jill]

And you're still working, right?

[Scott]

Still working. Looking at retiring the end of the year or first part of next year.

[Jill]

Oh, wow, that's cool. Are you married, single, partnered, married. And is your spouse still working?

[Scott]

Yeah, she's still working.

[Jill]

And will she retire with you at the end of the year or will she keep working?

[Scott]

She's gonna keep working till probably I draw Social Security and then make. Make sure that, you know, we're still good to go. And I'm gonna take Social Security at 62, so.

[Jill]

Why is that?

[Scott]

It's just kind of what I heard.

[Jill]

Wait a minute. All right, can we. Where can we revisit that? I want to get the facts down, and then I'm going to come back to Social Security. Okay, so right now, if you were offered this pension buyout, what's the lump sum?

[Scott]

Let's see. Lump sum is 5243 88.

[Jill]

524388. And what's the alternative?

[Scott]

It is. It depends on how I take it. But if I take it with, you know, letting my spouse have it after,

[Jill]

if I join the joint and survivor. Yep. What's the number?

[Scott]

It'd be 2847 through.

[Jill]

And. And that is for your life until the end. And. And then she would then succeed you, and so then you would have that much money. Okay.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Correct.

[Jill]

Got it. Okay, now tell us about other money you've got. You guys have saved.

[Scott]

Well, I got 7 63,000 in a normal 401k with same company. So.

[Jill]

Yep. Traditional. Yep.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And what else?

[Scott]

My wife's got about 180, I think,

[Podcast Host]

in the same thing.

[Jill]

Traditional.

[Scott]

Yeah, in a 401k.

[Jill]

Got it. Do you guys have any old IRAs kicking around, anything like that?

[Scott]

Nope.

[Jill]

Okay. And what about money that is already been taxed, like a brokerage account, a savings account, CDs, anything like that?

[Scott]

None of that.

[Jill]

So you don't have, like a safe money account? Like, what if the refrigerator breaks down?

[Scott]

Oh, yeah, we got probably, I don't know, 15,000.

[Jill]

Okay. Savings. Got it. Do you guys own your own home?

[Scott]

Yep.

[Jill]

What do you think it's worth?

[Scott]

Well, tax guy says 965, something like that.

[Jill]

You want to stay in this house?

[Scott]

For the most part, yeah.

[Jill]

Okay. Do you guys have a mortgage that's outstanding?

[Scott]

Yeah, we owe about 180.

[Jill]

Do you know the interest rate offhand?

[Scott]

Five and a quarter.

[Jill]

Oh, is this a new purchase?

[Scott]

No, We've been here 27 years.

[Jill]

You never refinanced from five and a quarter?

[Scott]

No, I wish I would have. We kept putting it off. Putting it off?

[Jill]

Yeah. All right, well, let's not put off the retirement, because then you'll be working till you're 80, given your background. Right. So any other real estate? Any cabins or vacation home or timeshare, anything like that?

[Scott]

No, nothing that we can count yet. I mean, okay, we've got property. We're kind of taken over from her parents, but it's not in our name yet, so.

[Jill]

Okay. Okay. But that's in the future.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Do you guys have grown kids?

[Scott]

Yep. All grown and gone.

[Jill]

Okay. So we don't have to worry about supporting anybody, right?

[Scott]

Nope.

[Jill]

Okay, great. What about. Well, it sounds like her parents or someone's still alive, but, like, you don't have to support aging older parents for you guys?

[Scott]

No.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Scott]

Mine are both gone. Hers are alive, but they're doing well on their own.

[Jill]

They're doing okay. Great. Okay. So how much did your wife earn right now?

[Scott]

She probably makes 150. She works at a hospital, so.

[Jill]

Wow, that's great. That's amazing. How much do you earn right now?

[Scott]

About 138.

[Jill]

Are you both maxing out your retirement accounts?

[Scott]

I'm not sure what she's putting in. I'm putting in 14%, so not maxing.

[Jill]

Okay. But still pretty good.

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Do you have an idea of how much you spend every month?

[Scott]

No, that would be up her alley.

[Jill]

Any guesses? It's hard for me to figure this out without that. Do you think you spend more than, like, let's say. Let me give it a guess. You got to pay a mortgage. Got your property taxes, you got your insurance, you got your bills. Maybe like seven grand a month. Eight grand a month. Does that sound about right?

[Scott]

That's probably pretty close. Yeah.

[Jill]

Let's say eight. So I guess the question is, which way does this work better for you? How do you feel about the idea of. Of managing another half a million dollars in addition to your 763 inside of your 401k? Are you managing that money yourself?

[Scott]

I have been up until a week ago. They offered me three months free through Edelman. I think it is. Okay, so I took them up. Yeah. So I took them up on it just to see what happens. And I get out of it at any time, so.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Scott]

And I'm already in the accounts. They told me to put it in anyways when I was for adv.

[Jill]

That's good. Actually. Did they by any chance run some retirement analysis for you, or is it money management?

[Scott]

Yeah, I, I talked to them about retire and they just crunched the numbers and said, yeah, you can go.

[Jill]

And did they have an opinion about the lump sum versus the annuity payment?

[Scott]

I mean, I didn't. I didn't ask them yet, but I need to go back.

[Jill]

Edelman, I'm pretty sure, is cfp. It is fiduciary, meaning they have to put you first. But obviously they're. They. You could, one could make a case that it would be better for you to have this lump sum, add it to your 763. Right. So that, you know, essentially you just take this big chunk of money and you'd add that half a million to it with your wife's traditional. You put it, glom it all together. That creates a payment over time. However, there is something really nice about having a payment that comes to you every month. And I, and I want to like. Let's just hold that for a second because I think your pension amount, would it be inflation adjusted? Would it go up every year?

[Scott]

They did get a raise of like 3%.

[Jill]

Okay, that's good. That's good.

[Scott]

That came. Came with the contract, but I don't know if. I don't know if the people that already retired get it.

[Jill]

Okay. I would be interested to find out if the payment every month is inflation adjusted. It would be a cost of living adjustment. I'm going to guess it is. I'm guessing. I know where you work. We would want to double check that. So part of this is about what you think is going to be reasonable for you guys. So let's say we have Social Security. We're going to talk about 62, 67 and 70. First question for you is, how's your health? Are you in good health?

[Scott]

I'm in great health.

[Jill]

You are okay?

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Jill]

So do you happen to have the Social Security amount at age 62, 67 and 70? Do you have all three?

[Scott]

I only have the 62.

[Jill]

And how much is that?

[Scott]

Is 27, 44.

[Jill]

Okay. All right. The reason why, I think if you're in really good health, here's the premise of Social Security. If you are in good health, it does make sense to wait until your Full retirement age, that would be 67 for you. And get more money because that guaranteed more money will be inflation adjusted every year. So presuming you live to your 80s, which by the way, if you're in good health right now and you're 60, you probably will, it usually makes the most sense to claim at your full retirement age. All right, so let's pretend I'm going to make this up. Let's say that you have your pension that is at 2847amonth. If you retired at the end of this year, that would start immediately. Or do you have to wait till some age that it triggers?

[Scott]

I just have to wait for 55, which.

[Jill]

Oh, you're there.

[Scott]

Okay, so you got past that.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Okay, so if we mark, if, if his, if his Social Security is 2744 at 62, what do you figure it is at? 67? Like 3200 probably.

[Mark]

I mean, I wrote down around 35.

[Jill]

Okay, 3500. Okay, so then. And do you know what your wife's Social Security estimate is going to be in the future?

[Scott]

I do not. I know she was a stay at home mom for, you know, pretty much the life of the kids. So she's missing a 20 year chunk or so.

[Jill]

Yeah, but did she, has she been working 10 years, more than 10 years lately?

[Scott]

Yes, I think she's right at 10.

[Jill]

That's the determining factor. And she's going to keep.

[Scott]

Oh, I see.

[Jill]

So you need, you need 40 quarters or 10 years and then you're in good shape.

[Mark]

Her health care, her health care job, is there any pension?

[Jill]

No, no pension there?

[Scott]

No, just the 401.

[Jill]

Let's say that. What do you want to figure her Social Security will be at 67, mark? 3, 3, 500 also?

[Mark]

I don't know, that might be a little high.

[Jill]

Let's say 2,500 just to be safe. Okay, so now let's presume in the future you collecting your pension, that's the 2847. Then you wait till 67, you get, let's say about 3500. Then she kicks in at her 67, maybe it's 2,500. So now we're talking about pretty much covering all of your needs with your two Social Security checks and your pension. Not 100% because, you know your expenses. We really still don't know. We think it's about eight grand a month. But you know, eight will turn into a higher number as inflation takes hold. So I guess the question is, in looking at this, do you feel like Having the pension is a relief, especially in the period of time before Social Security. Like having that paycheck. Would it feel good for you to have that 2847, then your wife keeps working, right. For you said how long until. Until her age, what, six?

[Scott]

She's three years behind me, so.

[Jill]

All right, so. So she keeps working. You sock money away. You probably can live on her salary alone. How do you feel about having that extra pension? How do you feel like about having that dependable check? That's. It's like part of this is about your feeling. It's less math.

[Scott]

Right? That's. That's kind of what I've always, you know, been leaning towards.

[Jill]

So, Mark, do you think that collecting the pension makes more sense for Scott and his wife?

[Mark]

Based on everything I've heard so far, I'm leaning taking the monthly payment, especially, you know, given that it's still a nice amount with the full joint and survivor benefit.

[Jill]

I think that there's two things I want you to confirm. Number one is we want you to confirm that there is a cost of living adjustment associated with that 2847. You just ask them. Okay. The second thing is, I think that it would be helpful if you said to the folks at Edelman, can you run an analysis as to whether or not it makes more sense for me to collect the pension as a lump sum versus a monthly income, knowing that I really want. But tell them I really do want the monthly income? You could tell them that. You could say it makes me feel more comfortable. And then they'll explain to you also that claiming at 67 makes a lot more sense. I. Because I think that you've got enough money to do exactly what you want to do. The real question to me is, you know, how do we make sure that you get through this period from age 60 to 67 feeling comfortable? And what you can. I think that because your wife's going to keep working, you get a half, you know, however long she works, because, I don't know, maybe she'll say she wants to work longer, we'll say, but let's say it's a few more years. Then at that point, you start pulling money out of your traditional 401k. You just take the money you need a little bit at a time to compensate you for the money that you will need to live your life. And that's does two things at once, Scott. Number one, it allows you to get some of this money out when you know what your tax bracket's going to be. You just get you're going to get some of this out, you won't have a big surprise. And number two, it'll bridge the gap between now and Social Security. And then, you know, honestly, you'll probably take a little bit more out. You'll take some money out to get like once you get to, from your age 60 to 67, then maybe you'll take some money out before your wife claims Social Security. And then when she claims, I think you should be pretty close to being close to being there.

[Podcast Host]

I don't know.

[Jill]

How long do you have on that mortgage payment? What's, what's left on that?

[Scott]

What's left?

[Jill]

Yeah. How many years?

[Scott]

You know, I think eight.

[Jill]

Yeah. I mean, so that's going to really also help your cash flow. That as soon as that's gone that all of a sudden obviously your cash flow is going to look a lot better.

[Scott]

Right.

[Jill]

I think it kind of works. It, it works pretty well. I would have them run the numbers, though. Absolutely have them run the numbers. And part of what is helpful about having an organization or a financial planner is not about the money management because as you just found out, the money management, you were doing just fine. Right.

[Scott]

You're right.

[Jill]

You're doing just fine. But let them, let them actually crunch the numbers for you. And I think you'll be in great shape. And the only other thing I will tell you is that, you know, as you, if, while you're still working, any benefit that you have that you can access, for example, I don't know if you have, if you have access to legal services, but if you haven't done your estate planning, you want to do your estate planning, you want to make sure you have everything buttoned up and take every possible benefit that they have for you. And I think that that will, you know, help build the case in your own mind that you're fine. And you are fine.

[Scott]

Of course. Right. One other thing I would like to mention. We have a very large school loan from my daughter. Oh, like a hundred thousand. Yeah.

[Jill]

But you include that in like how much money you have you're spending every month, right?

[Scott]

Yeah, we spend like a thousand bucks a month towards it.

[Jill]

Well, I mean, that's going to feel a lot better after you're done with the mortgage, but you're very nice to have assumed that. Does she have a job?

[Scott]

Who? My daughter.

[Jill]

Your daughter? Yeah.

[Scott]

Not anymore. She's a stay at home mom.

[Jill]

So you just assumed this for her?

[Scott]

Yep. It's a parent plus loan and my wife refuses to take money from her oh, God.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Scott]

Even though she's offered, I would. I would take it.

[Jill]

I would take it also. Mark, what should I say about this? Just let this go. Do I need to just let this go right now?

[Mark]

Let's let this one go.

[Jill]

Let this go. Okay. I'm going to let this go, because as far as I'm concerned, your wife rules on this, okay? So I'm not getting in the way of this. I think you're in good shape. If for some reason you decide to sell your house or something else happens, get back in touch with us. But I'm leaning towards the pension payment as well. Have Edelman run numbers for you. And also tell your wife if she. If she really wants to pay off that loan, she should just keep working. We'll see if that moves her. But that's really not true because it sounds like you can afford it. Okay.

[Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jill]

I think you're in good shape. All right, man. Good luck. Stay in touch with us. Don't take that Social Security at 62. Hey, gang, are you tempted to draw your Social Security at 62? If so, I want you to join our webinar. It's coming up June 17th. Next month, we've got Heather Schreiber, the queen of all things Social Security. She is an expert. She's going to lay out the math for you. You've got to be a member of Jill on Money Live in order to join us. It'll cost you 45 bucks for the next 12 months, or you can purchase a single webinar for 15 bucks after that webinar occurs. Don't forget to subscribe to us on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We love to ask you to do something nice for someone else today. It will make that person feel better, and it sure will make you feel better. Change your work, change your wealth, change your life. Thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Podcast Host]

Are you the kind of person friends turn to when they need help planning a trip? I know I am.

[Jill]

That means you got to dig into

[Podcast Host]

the hotel options, figure out the best neighborhoods, track down that one hard to get dinner reservation. There's something really satisfying about turning a loose idea into a trip that feels unforgettable. And that's why Fora stands out. Fora is a modern travel agency built for people who already love planning their travel and want to take that skill a step further. You get training, booking, tools, and a community of experienced advisors who share real insights and support as you build your own travel business, Fora also provides flexibility. You're working for yourself on your own terms alongside whatever else life looks like for you. And with access to thousands of preferred partners, clients can get perks like upgrades and resort credits that make a real difference in their trips. When you book travel, you earn commissions, and getting started can be as simple as helping people you already know. Now's the time to turn that passion into something more with Fora. Become a Fora advisor [e-mail] jillonmoney that's f o r a travel.com jillonmoney and make sure you tell them we sent you. Foratravel.com jillonmoney on my new podcast On

[Podcast Advertiser]

Par with Maury Povich, we're getting down to the truth behind the names that you know and love. Unfiltered conversations with legends like Leanne Morgan, Kathy Griffin, Ricki Lake to find out when they feel the most on par. We're breaking it down with Don Lemon, Aaron Parnas, Lamani Jones, Laughing it up with Josh Johnson, Dan Soder, many more. You know the results are in. Great conversations are always on par, so follow and listen to On Par wherever you get your podcasts.