Moving From Saver to Spender

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Moving From Saver to Spender"
Jill on Money with Jill Schlesinger
Release Date: February 25, 2025

In this insightful episode of "Jill on Money with Jill Schlesinger", host Jill Schlesinger and co-host Mark engage in a profound conversation with Jolene, a 61-year-old soon-to-be retiree from New Jersey. The discussion centers around the significant transition from accumulating wealth to thoughtfully spending it during retirement. Through Jolene's personal experiences and financial strategies, listeners gain valuable perspectives on navigating retirement with confidence and purpose.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode opens with Mark introducing the show's purpose: assisting listeners in making informed and considered financial decisions. He encourages audience participation through questions and highlights upcoming content, including a new weekend-focused podcast on investing basics.

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2. Guest Introduction: Jolene's Retirement Journey

Mark welcomes Jolene to the program, highlighting her imminent retirement in April. Jolene shares her long-term commitment to diligent saving, having worked since she was 13 years old.

• Jolene: "We've been, you know, pretty diligent with savings... I've started working when I was like 13 years old, and it's just always save, save, save."
  [03:35]

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3. Income Sources in Retirement

Jolene discusses her and her wife's income post-retirement, which includes significant pension benefits.

• Jolene: "Her pension is about $2,800 a month... and mine... it's going to be around $9,000 a month."
  [04:46]

Additionally, Jolene mentions her wife has started collecting Social Security.

• Jolene: "Her Social Security income is about $2,700 a month."
  [05:14]

Mark summarizes their total gross income:

• Mark: "So without you even claiming your Social Security, starting in April, you guys are going to have $14,500 a month coming in."
  [07:07]

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4. Health Care Considerations

A critical aspect of retirement planning discussed is healthcare costs.

• Jolene: "It's going to be more because of, you know, the whole health insurance thing."
  [05:42]

Jolene explains her plan to manage healthcare expenses until she qualifies for Medicare.

• Jolene: "I'm budgeting about $1,900 a month for me, and then for my wife, her Medicare right now is around $850."
  [06:25]

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5. Savings and Investment Strategies

Jolene provides an overview of her and her wife's savings and investment accounts:

• Primary Home: Fully paid, valued at approximately $450,000.
• Secondary Home: Valued around $1 million.
• 401(k) Traditional: Approximately $1.7 million.
• Roth IRA: About $100,000.
• Health Savings Account (HSA): Roughly $55,000.
• Brokerage Account: Approximately $1.3 million.
• High-Yield Savings: Around $350,000 as an emergency fund.
  [08:17 - 08:56]

Jolene mentions managing these accounts independently after moving away from professional management.

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6. Psychological Shift: From Saving to Spending

The conversation delves into the emotional and psychological transition from being a saver to becoming a spender in retirement.

• Jolene: "It's been... growing up with... just being in that mentality of, you know, you're always worried about that rainy day because the carpet can be pulled out from underneath you at any moment."
  [19:25]

Mark emphasizes the importance of permitting oneself to enjoy the fruits of long-term saving.

• Mark: "You have to give yourself permission. If you've called us to try to have us provide that permission... you can do it."
  [19:21 - 19:25]

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7. Tax Strategies and Advice

Mark offers strategic advice on managing taxes during retirement, considering Jolene's high tax bracket due to substantial income.

• Mark: "If you're in the 24% bracket, you could at least say, we'll take the money out right before you get to your 65 claiming point... make sure you take the money out and get the money out."
  [10:52]

They discuss potential Roth conversions and charitable donations as tax-efficient strategies.

• Mark: "You can gift shares... start a donor advised fund... qualified charitable distribution..."
  [13:04 - 13:45]

Jolene agrees, noting her and her wife's intention to leave money to charity rather than heirs.

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8. Actionable Takeaways

• Establish a "Fun Money" Account: Create a separate account designated for discretionary spending to balance saving and enjoying retirement.
• Strategic Withdrawal Planning: Consider withdrawing from retirement accounts in a tax-efficient manner before claiming Social Security.
• Healthcare Budgeting: Anticipate and plan for healthcare expenses to avoid financial strain.
• Charitable Giving: Explore options like donor-advised funds and qualified charitable distributions for tax benefits and personal fulfillment.
• Psychological Adjustment: Acknowledge the emotional shift from saving to spending and grant oneself permission to enjoy retirement.

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9. Conclusion

The episode concludes with encouragement for listeners facing similar transitions. Mark and Jill reinforce the importance of balancing financial prudence with enjoying the rewards of a lifetime of saving. They urge listeners to reach out with their questions and engage with the community for support and guidance.

• Mark: "Change your work, change your wealth, change your life. Thank you for listening."
  [22:30]

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Notable Quotes:

• Jolene on Saving Philosophy: "It's been... pretty diligent with savings... always save, save, save."
  [03:35]

• Mark on Tax Strategy: "If you're in the 24% bracket, you could at least say, we'll take the money out right before you get to your 65 claiming point."
  [10:52]

• Jolene on Psychological Shift: "It's been... growing up with... always worried about that rainy day..."
  [19:25]

• Mark on Giving Permission: "You can do it. You can do it."
  [19:21 - 19:25]

---

This episode offers a comprehensive look into the multifaceted aspects of transitioning from saving to spending in retirement. Through Jolene's experiences and expert advice from Jill and Mark, listeners are equipped with strategies to manage their finances effectively while embracing the joys of retirement.

Transcript

[Jill Schlesinger]

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[Mark]

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[Jill Schlesinger]

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[Mark]

Welcome to the Jill on Money Show. It's Tuesday, February 25th and we are here trying to help you make better or less bad or more considered financial decisions. If you have a question, get in touch with us. Go to jillonmoney.com click the contact us button, write us that note. That's the email we receive. And if you'd like to join us live, just check the box. Mark will do everything else after that and know that all of our content lives right there on the jillonmoney.com website. And it's very exciting because you know, you've heard us talk on this podcast. Like you know, when I say, oh, you can subscribe to us on the Odyssey app. Odyssey is this company that, that distributes and sells spots for us for the Jill on Money Show. And guess what? They are now doing the same thing with our other podcast, which is the CBS podcast Money Watch. So now we have two shows and you know what we're going to be doing? We're going to be putting the second show out on the weekends and that show is going to be much more focused on getting back to your investing basics. So if you would like to join in on that podcast, you'll have to subscribe to us. That's the Money Watch podcast. And, yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun. I'm excited. So check that out. Also, by the way, don't forget, you can also subscribe to the Jill on Money Live service. That's where you have access to quarterly live webinars, bonus audio and video content, the entire back catalog, all for 45 bucks for the next 12 months. And coming up soon, Ed Slott will be joining us for the upcoming webinar on Thursday, March 67 Eastern Time. Okay. Today we are excited because we have maybe the only person named Jolene in New Jersey. Jolene, welcome to the program.

[Jolene]

Thank you very much.

[Mark]

What's going on?

[Jolene]

Well, very exciting. Getting ready to retire, turn notice in. And I will be leaving, leaving work in April. So that's all. It's wonderful. My wife is already retired, so it's, you know, it's kind of a new chapter for us both. We have long been extreme. I don't want to say extreme, but we've been, you know, pretty diligent with savings. And me personally, you know, I've started working when I was, like, 13 years old, and it's just always save, save, save. I had depression, baby parents, and, you know, they were fire before fire was even a thing.

[Mark]

Right.

[Jolene]

Um, and so now we're at that point where we need to stop putting money in and start taking money out.

[Mark]

We're going from accumulation to decumulation. Can't wait to hear these totals. I know Jolene. How she's. I've been working since I'm 13. I've got bazillion dollars. How old are you, Jolene?

[Jolene]

61.

[Mark]

Okay. And when you retire in April, will you have a pension?

[Jolene]

Yes.

[Mark]

What is the pension amount?

[Jolene]

My. Both my wife and I have a pension.

[Mark]

Oh, my.

[Jolene]

Her pension is about $2,800 a month.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Jolene]

And mine, although it won't be exactly calculated until, you know, they do all the. The summing up, but it's going to be around $9,000 a month.

[Mark]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. How old is your wife?

[Jolene]

65.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Jolene]

Just started collecting her other pension, Social Security.

[Mark]

Oh. Oh. She. So she claims early.

[Jolene]

Mm.

[Mark]

Okay. What's her Social Security income?

[Jolene]

It's about the same. $2,700 a month.

[Mark]

So this is crazy. There's a lot of income coming in. All right, so she's got her 4550. 400, sorry, 5500 coming in. You're gonna have 9000. What do you spend right now?

[Jolene]

Well, right now we spend around seven to seven and a half thousand a month.

[Mark]

But you want to. Maybe it's going to be more than that.

[Jolene]

It's going to be more because of, you know, the whole health insurance thing. Right. And so.

[Mark]

Well, she has Medicare.

[Jolene]

Yeah. But, you know, there's this thing called irmaa.

[Mark]

Yeah, I know. Don't, don't start bitching about that. Get over it.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Get over that.

[Jolene]

No, I'm not. You know, it ends up being a lot more expensive that, you know.

[Mark]

Well, what are you doing for, for health care between now and you're 65?

[Jolene]

So I'm very fortunate that I will be able to do cobra.

[Mark]

Okay, so that's 18 months.

[Jolene]

Yep. And then I've been with my company for a very long time and I qualify for continued medical care.

[Mark]

Stop it. So, okay, wait.

[Jolene]

You know it's very, very expensive, right?

[Mark]

Yes. How much?

[Jolene]

For me, it's going to end up, you know, it's going to, it's going to go up each year, but I'm budgeting about 18, 1900 dollars a month for me, and then for my wife, her Medicare right now is around 850.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Jolene]

So, you know, all in. I think our budget's going to be about 10, 5 when we, when we put in the medical stuff.

[Mark]

Okay. Even if it's, let's say it's 11. Let's just. Right. I mean, so 11,000 now net is what we're talking about. Is that correct? Yeah, but you guys, without you even claiming your Social Security, but, you know, starting in April, you guys are going to have 14,500amonth coming in.

[Jolene]

Correct.

[Mark]

Gross.

[Jolene]

Yeah, I mean, we.

[Mark]

Okay, hold on, hold on. Don't, don't say a word because I just want to let that sit for a second. Right, right. Just so it. Just like, let's let it land for a second. Okay. Now tell us about your other savings, because someone who's been working since she's 13 and says she's maybe an extreme saver has put money away. Tell us where and what kind of accounts that the. You have saved in.

[Jolene]

Well, we have. Let's start with property. Okay, so we have a primary home. It's probably. And these are everything is all paid off. There's no debt.

[Mark]

Of course there are. I mean, obviously.

[Jolene]

So primary home is our starter home. We never upgraded. So. Okay, we're at about 450 for that.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Jolene]

We bought a secondary home out west in the, in the mountains. Potential retirement place. We don't know. That's probably worth right now about a million. Um, and let's see, we've got 401k traditional. 401k at about 1.7.

[Mark]

Goodbye.

[Jolene]

We have.

[Mark]

You're amazing. You're amazing.

[Jolene]

Keep going. 100k in Roth.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Jolene]

We got about 55 in HSA. We have about 1.3 in a brokerage.

[Mark]

And are you guys managing that yourselves?

[Jolene]

Yeah, I was using fidelities management, but I got out of that a little while ago.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Jolene]

I just didn't feel like were doing anything more than I could do for myself.

[Mark]

Okay, fair enough.

[Jolene]

Then we have about 350k in high yield savings.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Jolene]

Yeah.

[Mark]

And it's not earmarked for anything right now.

[Jolene]

The. The 350. Yeah, no, it was just kind of like I started accumulating that, you know, about 18 months ago as I was getting ready for retirement, and then just kind of figured like, that would be like our emergency fund in case the market, you know, crapped out. And it would be. It would be what we would pull from instead of having to pull from the market.

[Mark]

So are you planning to claim Social Security at age 70?

[Jolene]

No.

[Mark]

You're gonna do 67?

[Jolene]

Probably not. And I'll tell you why.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Jolene]

I recently went through cancer.

[Mark]

Oh, I'm sorry. Everything okay. Okay, fair enough.

[Jolene]

You know, it was definitely an eye opener. It was three years of chemo and. Yeah, everything. All the things. And it really brought, you know, I'd never had any health issues before that. And so that was like the first foray into the medical insurance whole situation. And it was an eye opener for sure. And so who knows how long life is? So I'll probably claim around 65.

[Mark]

Okay. What will your benefit be at that age?

[Jolene]

Well, based on the Social Security, you know, statement, whatever it says 33amonth. I think it might be a little less because, you know, let's say three. Yeah.

[Mark]

Okay. For now, just round numbers. You're done in April. You've got your 14,5 gross that's coming in. Is your intention to. To pull some money out of the pre tax account? Cause I'm sort of like, well, between 61 and 65. Why not try to pull out some of the. Your income's only gonna go up, so should you pull some of your 401?

[Jolene]

That's the question on the table.

[Mark]

Yeah, I think so. I think the question is because you're still in a high tax bracket. So New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, these are all high tax states. Right. In the tri state. Although is your western mountain home a place where you have a lower state tax structure?

[Jolene]

You know, I'd have to really dig into that, but I don't think it's going to be that. I think it'll be negligible. I don't think it's going to be okay.

[Mark]

So right now, from property tax perspective.

[Jolene]

Absolutely. Okay.

[Mark]

But you want to keep both residences for now?

[Jolene]

I think we're going to keep both until we decide where we ultimately want to.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Jolene]

End up.

[Mark]

I guess the question is this, do you want to just pull some of the money out a little bit at a time? I mean, not huge money because as we talked about, you are in a fairly high tax bracket. You know, you're probably at 22, 24ish, let's just say around there, because you have a lot. That brokerage account probably generates tax liability.

[Jolene]

Oh, yes, it does. So I just met with my accountant earlier this morning to go through our taxes and it's, you know, it's painful. I mean, it's a good kind of pain.

[Mark]

Right? I know, I know, I know. If you looked at your, what were you earning before you before retirement? So last year, what was your, what was your earnings?

[Jolene]

You know, it's salary bonus varies every year, salary bonus, lti. But you know, it was in the mid three.

[Mark]

Okay, so you're going to go down a big tax bracket though. You're going from probably 32%.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Ish.

[Mark]

Right. 32, 35. Okay. So now maybe what does make sense is to start pulling money out. So married, filing jointly, you know, up to 380 or 90 grand. I don't know where the top of 24% is. I would at least start pulling money out of your retirement accounts and I would try to at least get out as much. You don't even have to convert it. You can just keep it. Because it sounds to me like you guys, you like having a little cash on hand and you have that 350 grand in savings. I guess the question is whether we do a real big conversion. Have you thought about that?

[Jolene]

Yeah, and we actually, I've actually talked to my accountant a couple of times about doing a Roth conversion.

[Mark]

And what's he she say?

[Jolene]

She's like, you know, we don't have kids.

[Mark]

Yes.

[Jolene]

And so we don't plan on leaving. You know, we're our. We don't plan on leaving anybody money. Right.

[Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jolene]

I think our Intent is to leave to charity.

[Mark]

Okay. Okay, great. In that case, then you can really, at age 70 and a half, start doing qualified charitable distributions. You can take. Do you have low cost basis stock in that brokerage account? Do you have like, in other words, you have a big taxable gain in the brokerage account for a lot of the holdings?

[Jolene]

No, I mean, everything's pretty much long term capital.

[Mark]

But did you. Yeah, but I mean, in other words, when you bought the, those gain, those things, you bought them at much lower levels in many cases.

[Jolene]

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Jolene]

Yes. Cost basis will be high for much of it.

[Mark]

Okay, so meaning one of the things to consider is if you're not going to do a conversion, then just pull the money out that you need. Just make sure you take the money out and get the money out. If you're in the 24% bracket, you could at least say, eh, we'll take the money out right before you get to your 65 claiming point. And then you just get that money, throw it in the brokerage account if you don't need it. If you need it, great, fine, use it, spend it, have fun. But I think that what happens once you start, you know, claiming Social Security, then you're just going to, you're going to have plenty of money. You know that, right?

[Jolene]

Yes.

[Mark]

Then the issue really is, well, how do we make this, how do we, how do we functionally make sure that, you know, we don't have to pay more taxes than we, than we should? Let's try to, you know, sort of take advantage of the tax law. And in that case, I think if you do want to be charitable, there's two ways to do it. One is to do it, you know, right now during your lives. You could say, hey, I want to give some money to XYZ charity. You can do it from your brokerage account. You can give a something that has a low cost basis. You bought it at 10, it's now worth 100. You can gift shares in that particular holding to a charity directly. You get a nice big tax write off in the year. You do that. If you don't want to do it in, you know, year to year, you can start a donor advised fund where you can sort of gift those low basis holdings into the donor advised fund every year. You can, you know, put 10 grand, 20 grand, 30 grand, you don't have to pay tax on it. And you can dribble out your giving over time. And then of course, in your estate planning, you can make a big, big bequest if that's something that's important to you when you're 70 and a half, there's something called a qualified charitable distribution where you can take up to. I think it's like $105,000. You can take it out of your retirement account and it can go directly to a charity. It's in lieu of taking your required minimum distribution. It can satisfy part of it. So these are all things that you can do in the future to, I think, satisfy your needs, which like, hey, we don't need to give all of our money away right now. We have no one else to leave it to. But we want to be charitable, and we want to make sure that we're using the tax code to our advantage. And I think you're in great shape. You're in totally great shape.

[Jolene]

We feel very fortunate and, you know. Yes, we know we're in great shape. It is just that psychological shift from. I mean, I started investing when I was in high school, buying CDs, paying 15% interest, you know, and so that.

[Mark]

Was a good deal then, huh? Not bad.

[Jolene]

Not bad.

[Mark]

So, I mean, is there some way maybe what you can do is. Do you guys have a hard time spending money? Is that a. Is that a hurdle for you?

[Jolene]

Yes and no. I mean, I think my wife and I, when we first met, we were an opposite extreme. She was a big spender, I was a big saver. We have since kind of met in the middle a little bit, leaning towards the saving side. So I've gotten better with it. But, yeah, it's very hard for me to spend money and indulge myself. You know, like, I just booked a trip and, you know, was like, I think I can afford first class. You know, Should I? Yes. Should I?

[Mark]

Yes.

[Jolene]

Should I really spend the money?

[Mark]

Yes, you should buy the first ticket. Yes, absolutely.

[Jolene]

And so. So I did. But it was really hard. You know, Mark.

[Mark]

Mark and I have been giving this advice. That was a very funny day where we're telling people to spend money. I must be the only person who does a show like this where I'm like, just spend the money. I don't mean to be, like, indulgent. On the other hand, why did you work so hard and put this money away if you cannot enjoy it, especially after the last few years that you've had. So, you know, one way to. To work your way around it is to say, you know, gosh, every year in our brokerage account, we have. I don't know, you'll see what you'll look in your Tax documents. And maybe it's a, you get a tax liability, get interest and dividend income. Maybe it's some amount of money. Maybe you say, I'm going to spend that money every year. That's going to be like our first class tickets somewhere. But it's like a game to play with yourself because you know you have plenty of money. You're not going to spend all the money you have. You guys could live to 105. You're not going to spend all your money. So one nice thing to consider would be to just set up some kind of separate account where you can basically say, this is an account that is meant for us to have fun. This is our fun money account. And you know that you're not going to need it, you know, you're not going to have to worry about it. So that's, I love that idea because it doesn't freak you out as much. You're both on board with it and maybe in some years you're not going to spend the whole thing. But maybe while you are in this period of life where you are young and you are healthy, you're still healthy and you're spend the money, have it.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Go, go, go, go.

[Mark]

Right? And then 75 to 85 is the slow go. And once you're over 85, it's usually the no go. You're not going around. You're not like, who wants to get in an airport right now? I mean, I barely want to do it at this age, but I think you've done such hard work and you've gotten here. You have to give yourself permission. And if you've called us to try to have us provide that permission.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Permission granted.

[Mark]

You can do it. You can do it.

[Jolene]

It's been, you know, growing up with depression, baby parents, and just, you know, being in that mentality of, you know, you, you know, you're always worried about that rainy day because the carpet can be pulled out from underneath you at any moment. You know, and that's the psychological shift of, you know, I don't think that will happen. And, you know, kind of moving beyond that, you know, it's almost like therapy, right?

[Jill Schlesinger]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Mark]

But I, you know, so funny, the whole reason that I wrote my second book, the Great Money Reset, was this exact situation during the pandemic where people were kind of calling us for permission to do something different with their lives. And it may have been like if a few years ago before you ever had your bad diagnosis, you just wanted to like call and be like, God, I'M just so sick of this. Could I ever, like, retire? I always thought I would retire when I'm 65. Could I ever do it when I'm 61? And we would have been like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can, but you need a permission. And now you life has given you permission and you've given yourself permission. We're just coming in on the sidelines and saying, yes, you are in fantastic shape. You guys have done a terrific job together. Maybe just moving to the middle from extreme saving to, you know, spending, you know, like, just you want to go a little bit to the middle and enjoy what you have for as long as you can actually physically be able to do it, the money will last. It's just we need to make sure that you physically can do the things you want to do. So, you know, I think what you're going to find is that your total income is going to be more than enough. And if we, you know, like I said, if you want to say, okay, well, my brokerage account, that's the money that I. I'm going to use. Or maybe you say, I'm going to take 50 grand a year out of the retirement account that keeps us in the 24% bracket. And that 50 grand after taxes, we're going to blow that on something you would make the, like, whatever is the way that you will get to the end result of. We give ourselves permission to have some fun with this money.

[Jolene]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That does. That's all it comes down to is just is giving us. Giving my. It's really myself. I don't think my wife's gonna have any problem with it.

[Mark]

She's like, let's go, Jolene, let's go.

[Jolene]

Yes, she's. She's ready. And I'm like, well, you know, so.

[Mark]

Well, you're ready because now life has given you this opportunity and you've done a great job. And you know what I think, and by the way, do I think it's likely that you're going to maintain these two residences? I bet not. I bet, you know there's at least a half a million dollars that is freed up to do something else and you live wherever you want to live. That's what I think. Don't worry about, like, where has a better tax treatment or not, whatever. You go where you want to go. And if neither of these places are where you really want to be, sell them both and get something different. But what I think is clear is you can do what you want. You have to give yourself permission to do this. So when you are feeling insecure, you'll just play this episode back over and over.

[Jolene]

Okay, Sounds good.

[Mark]

Go spend some money. Okay.

[Jolene]

Thank you.

[Mark]

All right. Hey, if you've got a question about your early retirement, you've gone through a healthcare issue. It's kind of woken you up and maybe you really want to make a different decision moving forward. Get in touch with us. Go to jillonmoney.com click the contact us button, write us a note, and if you want to join us on the air live, check the box. Mark will do every everything else. Hey, don't forget to sign up for our free weekly newsletter comes out every single Friday and I love what Mark does with that. You can subscribe to us on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your favorite podcast. Hey, and don't forget to subscribe to the Money Watch podcast as well. Leave us a rating and review Wherever you listen, please try to lift someone up. Change your work, change your wealth, change your life. Thank you for listening. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Jill Schlesinger]

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