The Wealth Ladder With Nick Maggiulli

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Wealth Ladder With Nick Maggiulli" on Jill on Money with Jill Schlesinger

Episode Overview

In the August 15, 2025 episode of Jill on Money with Jill Schlesinger, host Jill Schlesinger welcomes Nick Maggiulli, the Chief Operating Officer and Data Scientist at Ritholtz Wealth Management. The episode delves into Nick's insightful framework presented in his book, The Wealth Ladder: Proven Strategies for Every Step of Your Financial Life. The discussion categorizes wealth into six distinct levels, explores the dynamics of moving up the ladder, and examines the psychological and social implications of increasing wealth.

---

Introduction to the Wealth Ladder

Jill Schlesinger introduces Nick Maggiulli and provides an overview of his book, The Wealth Ladder. The Wealth Ladder is a structured framework that categorizes U.S. households into six levels based on net worth:

1. Level 1: Less than $10,000
2. Level 2: $10,000 to $100,000
3. Level 3: $100,000 to $1,000,000
4. Level 4: $1,000,000 to $10,000,000
5. Level 5: $10,000,000 to $100,000,000
6. Level 6: Over $100,000,000

Jill emphasizes that the first three levels encompass the majority of U.S. households, with a significant jump in net worth at Level 4.

Jill Schlesinger [01:07]: "The book is essentially a framework for understanding how to build wealth one step at a time."

---

Exploring Level Four: Upper Middle Class

Mark, Jill's co-host, expresses curiosity about Level Four, the upper middle class with a net worth between $1 million and $10 million, representing 16.3% of U.S. households.

Nick Maggiulli explains that transitioning from Level Three to Level Four typically involves a substantial increase in income. He notes the median household income jumps from approximately $83,000 in Level Three to $200,000 in Level Four. This income boost often comes from dual six-figure earners within a household.

Nick Maggiulli [06:44]: "Once you get into level four, you call this like the no man's land of wealth management or of wealth levels. Because once you're in, you're basically never going to get out."

Nick illustrates the difficulty of moving from $1 million to $10 million, stating it would require saving $100,000 annually over 28 years at a 5% real return. This scenario is often impractical for most individuals, making Level Four a challenging stage to ascend further.

Nick Maggiulli [07:43]: "Most people would rationally say, okay, I'll work until I have a couple million bucks, enough to support my lifestyle, and then they take their foot off the gas."

---

Psychological Impacts of Wealth Stratification

Mark raises an interesting psychological observation regarding how individuals perceive their wealth relative to others. He notes that those in Level Three might feel inadequate when comparing themselves to those in Level Four, whereas such feelings are less common between Levels Two and Three.

Nick Maggiulli agrees, emphasizing the role of relative comparison and background in shaping one's financial self-perception.

Nick Maggiulli [04:39]: "It's always relative to your background. That's how I think everyone's going to judge themselves, like at least on some sort of financial metric."

This relative perception can lead to decreased satisfaction and self-esteem among individuals as they ascend the wealth ladder, particularly when comparing themselves to those in higher wealth tiers.

---

Impact of Inheritance and Luck on Wealth Levels

Mark brings up the "lucky sperm club," referencing how some individuals experience a significant wealth boost through inheritance or advantageous family circumstances.

Nick Maggiulli responds by acknowledging that while inheritances do play a role, they represent a small fraction in aggregated wealth data. Most households in higher wealth levels have accumulated their wealth through consistent work and savings rather than solely through inherited assets.

Nick Maggiulli [10:07]: "All the data I have in the book is just every single household we have data on. And I don't do anything because a lot of times I don't even know the wealth came from."

This underscores the importance of personal financial strategies over relying on external factors like inheritance.

---

Non-Financial Aspects of Wealth

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the notion that higher wealth levels bring about a shift in focus from financial to non-financial aspects of life. As individuals climb the wealth ladder, money ceases to be their primary source of problems, and other life aspects become more prominent.

Nick Maggiulli [14:06]: "Because you come to this realization that like, you know, you can't write your spouse a check and make them love you."

Nick cautions that individuals in Levels Five and Six often overlook the importance of non-financial wealth, such as relationships and health, which can lead to regrets about personal well-being despite substantial financial success.

Nick Maggiulli [15:09]: "I think the mistake people in level five most likely make is they're overlooking all the non-financial pieces and they're going to get to their end of their life... they should have taken care of my health more."

---

Personal Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Nick Maggiulli shares personal anecdotes about his family's emphasis on togetherness and non-financial wealth, attributing much of his understanding of wealth to these values rather than just financial accumulation.

Nick Maggiulli [15:57]: "They focus so much on family getting us together... they're so close with their cousins and all that stuff, and so that's really their wealth and what they did."

The conversation wraps up with a reflection on the balance between financial success and personal fulfillment, highlighting the essence of true wealth beyond mere monetary gains.

---

Conclusion

This episode of Jill on Money provides a comprehensive exploration of Nick Maggiulli's Wealth Ladder framework, offering listeners valuable insights into the complexities of wealth accumulation and the accompanying psychological and social dynamics. By distinguishing between different wealth levels and emphasizing the importance of non-financial aspects, the discussion encourages a holistic approach to building and maintaining wealth.

For more insights and personalized advice, listeners are encouraged to visit JillionMoney.com and engage with the hosts.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Jill Schlesinger [01:07]: "The book is essentially a framework for understanding how to build wealth one step at a time."
• Nick Maggiulli [06:44]: "Once you get into level four... you're basically never going to get out."
• Nick Maggiulli [04:39]: "It's always relative to your background."
• Nick Maggiulli [10:07]: "And I don't do anything because a lot of times I don't even know the wealth came from."
• Nick Maggiulli [14:06]: "Because you come to this realization that... you can't write your spouse a check and make them love you."
• Nick Maggiulli [15:57]: "They focus so much on family getting us together... that's really their wealth and what they did."

---

Join the Conversation

If this episode sparked any questions or thoughts, reach out to the Jill on Money team at JillionMoney.com by clicking the "Contact Us" button. Additionally, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter for more insights and updates.

Transcript

[Robert Half]

Need contract help for those workload peaks and backlog projects. You're not alone. Robert half found that 67% of companies surveyed said they will increase their use of contract talent. That's why their recruiters leverage their experience and use award winning AI to quickly find the skilled candidates you want. Learn about their specialized talent in finance, accounting, technology, marketing, legal and administrative support at Robert Half. They know talent. Visit roberthalf.com talent today.

[Carvana Representative]

Thanks for selling your car to Carvana. Here's your check.

[Customer]

Whoa.

[Time Traveler]

When did I get here?

[Carvana Representative]

What do you mean?

[Time Traveler]

I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted a great offer from Carvana online. I must have time traveled to the future.

[Carvana Representative]

It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup. Here's your check for that great offer.

[Time Traveler]

It is the future.

[Carvana Ad Voice]

It's.

[Carvana Representative]

It's the present and just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind.

[Customer]

It's all good.

[Time Traveler]

Happens all the time.

[Carvana Ad Voice]

Sell your car the convenient way to Carvana.

[Time Traveler]

Pick up. Times may vary and fees may apply.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Welcome to the Jill on Money show. It's Friday, August 15th and we've got a special treat for you today because you know Mark and I are heading out on vacation. I want to leave with a bang. We have a guest. His name is Nick Maggiuli. He is the chief operating officer and data scientist at Ritholtz Wealth Management.

[Mark]

Now why is he on not for that job?

[Jill Schlesinger]

Because he wrote a really interesting book. It is called the Wealth Ladder. The subtitle is Proven strategies for every step of your financial life. The book is essentially a framework for understanding how to build wealth one step at a time. So what are the wealth ladders? He identifies the wealth ladders at level one, a net worth of less than $10,000. Level two is 10,000 to $100,000 and level three is 100,000 to $1,000,000. If you look at the number of households that occupy those first three levels, it's most of the United States. The next four levels really take a jump up. Now level four is a net worth of 1 to 10 million dollars. That is 16.3% of U.S. households, 21 million do million households. Level five, that seems a little bit nosebleedy. 10 million to 100 million. That's about 1.7% of U.S. households or 2 million households. And of course the uber, uber uber rich. That's level six, a net worth of more than $100 million. That's just 10,000 U.S. households. And it's a fraction. It's like seven hundredths of 1% of the people out there for this program. We're gonna start at level four. But if you really want a deeper dive into levels 1, 2, and 3, you can check out the Money Watch show. We're gonna be dropping an episode over there on the first three levels of this book on Saturday, August 23rd.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Jill Schlesinger]

If you've got a question about the wealth ladder or anything else in this program, get in touch with us. Go to jillonmoney.com, click the contact Us button, write us a note. We'd be delighted to hear from you today. Don't forget to sign up for the free weekly newsletter that comes out every.

[Mark]

Friday, which is today. Imagine that.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay, here is our interview with Nick Magiulli.

[Mark]

I often think that, like, people in level three and level four. So again, level three, middle class, 100 to $1 million in saved assets, like wealth. Okay. And then upper middle class, 1 million to 10 million. You could imagine there's many school systems where a lot of those people are in the same school district. And I guess I'm wonder. You know, the thing that's fascinating to me is sometimes we find that someone who is, say, in level three, they will look up to the level four people that they know and they will feel like, I'm broke. Like, literally, I only have, you know, this much wealth or this guy has so much more wealth than I do, and they feel bad about themselves. Whereas it seems to me that people don't do that between level two and level three. I don't know if that happens. Like, oftentimes when I meet working class people, they're usually like, yeah, I'm pretty lucky. I'm not in that lower class anymore, thank God, you know? And so is there something about, like, the satisfaction that someone has as they compare themselves up versus down a level?

[Time Traveler]

Yeah, it's a great. It reminds me of that. I don't know if there was a joke or something, but the person who gets silver looks at the person that got gold and said, oh, man, I could have had gold. And the person that got bronze is like, oh, my gosh, I almost didn't make it onto the podium.

[Mark]

That's exactly right.

[Time Traveler]

Yeah. It's the exact same thinking here. So, yeah, I've actually. No one's ever asked me that question. It's an incredible question because I do think there is some sort of relative. Like, it's also depends where you start, too. If you grew up in the upper middle class and then you find yourself in level three and struggling, you're going to feel a lot worse than someone who grew up, let's say, in, you know, the lower middle class. And they end up making it into level three.

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

So it's always relative to your background. That's how I think everyone's going to judge themselves, like at least on some sort of financial metric. You know, they say not to compare ourselves to others, but we're, we're humans. We do it.

[Listener]

I.

[Time Traveler]

Every time I post about net worth data or something, it gets so many clicks and views. It doesn't get a lot of likes because I know people want to know the data, but they don't want to talk about it publicly. And that's fair and that's completely fine. Right.

[Mark]

So I'm going to like you. I already do.

[Time Traveler]

So that's, that's kind of a piece of it. But yeah, so I think you're completely right with thinking about that stuff. And it's really, you know, and. But then people in level four look at people in level five and say, oh, those are. That's actual wealth. Because then I can do this or that. And so you can keep playing this game forever if you really want to. And I've written about this previously.

[Mark]

Yeah, well, I want to just talk a little bit about what happens in level four. So now we're going to cross over the Rubicon and go to the upper middle class, which, I mean, again, this sounds dopey to anybody in levels 1, 2, and 3, because 80% of, about 80% of the, of the population in the US is in levels 1, 2 and 3. But then you go to level 4, and that is 1 million to $10 million. Actually, when I saw your numbers, I was like, oh, it's that many? It's 16.3%, according to Nick's book, that fall into the share of US households who fall into the 1 million to $10 million level. What's going on for these folks and how do we go from three to four usually?

[Time Traveler]

So once again, I think most people that go from three to four, they either have a higher income, so times one piece of it, and then the income is the other piece. So the median income of a household in level four is about $200,000. Right. That's the median household income For a household in level three, the median income is about $83,000. So there's quite a big jump there in terms of, you know, just median income. And so when you look at that, you're like, oh, wow, it really is income that's driving a lot of these Changes and it would make sense, right? You have two six figure earners in a household. Now. It's very obvious how a lot of those households can make it into level four. I think the big thing that happens once you get into level four, I call this like the no man's land of wealth management or of wealth levels. Because once you're in, you're basically never going to get out. That's, that's true for most people. There's, there's exceptions to this, but for the most part, you know, the things that get you into level four are not the things that get you out of level four. And it's simply just math. And if you do the math on this, you'll realize like once you get in there, you're basically trapped in there. I'm not saying you need to get out, by the way. That's a whole separate discussion. We can get into that in a moment here. But if you just do the math. Let's say you start, let's say you have a million dollar portfolio. I'm going to make it very simple. We don't have to worry about housing or anything. Let's just say you have a million dollars. It's earning 5% a year, let's say above inflation. So a real return and you're saving 100k a year. If you do that, how long would it take you to get to 10 million? The answer is 28 years. That's 28 years of saving $100,000 after tax, a considerable amount of money and you already start with a million dollars.

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

So if the median age in level four is 62, let's imagine someone you know at 62 median. Okay, let's assume they just hit a million. That's a little bit different than the median age in the whole group. But let's just say they just hit a million and they have to do this for another 28 years. Who wants to go and work until they're 90 saving 100k a year?

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

It's just not feasible. So even if you, let's say you even got there in your early 50s, do you want to work until you're 80 just to get to 10 million? No. Most people rationally say, okay, I'll work until I have a couple million bucks, enough to support my lifestyle, and then they take their foot off the gas. And I think that's the big decision in level four is do I keep working, do I start a business or something that could, that I could sell for a lot of money? And it's worth a lot more than this, or do I take a step back and just enjoy what I've built and maybe work on something that's more meaningful to me because I don't need money as much as I used to? So those are kind of the decision points you have, like, if you're really thinking about wealth.

[Mark]

So if I, I mean, how does, how do we factor in the lucky sperm club part of this? Which is, for example, I'm going to just talk about, like in my family, I, I've married into a family, there were five siblings. Each of the next generation has a very different outlook depending on what the parent did. Right. And so whereas with my only sister, the fact that we came from some wealth to begin with and that, that gave us a big boost, that, that almost like jumped us over the wealth ladder simply by luck. Right. So it's like the bad luck part of like, oh, crap, some bad things can happen. But the good luck part, how is that factored in? Obviously, right? I mean, it's like you're already at middle class, if you come out of school and you have no debt and, and you know, your parents gave you a few bucks and you know, maybe you, you may even start at that level. How is that factored into these levels?

[Time Traveler]

So it's, it would just be in the aggregated data. So that's kind of rare to have that. It does obviously happen, but it would just be in the aggregated data. And it's, it's just in there already. And that includes every, that includes people with inheritances, all these types of things, but these are generally quite rare. So I, all the data I have in the book is just every single household we have data on. And I don't do anything because a lot of times I don't even know the wealth came from. It doesn't necessarily say, oh, our wealth came from inheritance versus this. And even then it's very rare that someone just has an inheritance. Most people work and so even if they had a large inheritance, some portion of their wealth they earned.

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

So it's, it's a mixed bag usually. And you'll find the size of the inheritance varies. Even people that got a decent inheritance, they probably, it only ends up being, you know, maybe 20% of their total wealth.

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

So it, it varies. And so the thing to keep in mind is like, yeah, I, I'm, I'm speaking to this. Assuming you don't have a large inheritance coming, you don't know about anything of that sort. If you do have that you can obviously plan with that and kind of make this changes your thinking on it. But I think the ideas still apply regardless.

[Mark]

I think that what's interesting is that that idea around level four, I think that it's interesting to imagine that if you've got a few million bucks, four or five million bucks, it's built up. We hear from a lot of those people, and sometimes there are folks who are younger, they'll be like, I'll never have that money. You only have rich people on. It's almost like. It's a funny thing, like, because as you outline it, it starts to make a lot more sense. It's like, well, you're not figuring in these. Some of these people did not make a lot of money their whole lives. They just started early and they kept plugging away. And as you said, you know, you could be putting away, forgetting about 100 grand a year, but you could put away, you know, 30 grand a year early on, and that builds up, and you make more money, and then the money builds up and builds up and builds up, and then you can mitigate a lot of the bad things that could happen, and then you're perfectly happy, along with their 21 million other households, to be in that one to $10 million. All right, I'm ready to go to level five, which is, I'm guessing, where you stand, Nick. And if you're not married, I'm hopeful that this conversation where we talk about you being comfortably in Level 5 will allow you to find somebody new in your life.

[Time Traveler]

So I actually just got married about a month ago.

[Jill Schlesinger]

There you go.

[Mark]

So she's happy.

[Time Traveler]

Yeah, she's. But we're not in level five. Don't worry.

[Mark]

How dare. I'm going to call Barry up right now. This is outrageous.

[Time Traveler]

I mean, so, I mean, if the firm sells for enough money, I could go into level five, but it would have to be an astronomical valuation, at least based on our current understanding of the valuation of the firm.

[Mark]

Okay, so level five, gang, is people who have 10 to $100 million. Tell us about these really rich people.

[Time Traveler]

So, yeah, level five and six, it's less than 2% of the U.S. like, 1.7% together. And level six, there's like, 10,000 people in that group, which is over 100 million. So we can. I kind of group these two together. I did want to make a distinction between them because 100 million plus is just a completely different level of, you know, what you can do with money. And so when I think about level five versus level Six, level five. This is usually someone who besides like ignoring like athletes who had really big contracts or celebrities, like for the most part it's going to be entrepreneurs that sold their business or currently own a business that's worth, you know, tens of millions of dollars.

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

Some portion of a business. So there are, there are also exceptions to that. You can think of like early Nvidia employees who got a bunch of equity and now, you know, it's the most valuable company in the world so their equity is worth tens of millions of dollars. That's also in there. Like early startup people that you know, became very, very rich through their startup getting very large. So that's mostly who's in there. And I don't talk about the money stuff as much once you get to that level. And the reason why is because we've been talking about amplification across the wealth ladder. And what I think gets amplified the most the higher you go up the wealth ladder is all the non financial aspects of your life.

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

Because you come to this realization that like, you know, you can't write your spouse a check and make them love you.

[Mark]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

You can't buy yourself a new cardiovascular system. Well, at least not yet.

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

So because of all this you come to the realization that oh my gosh, I could have way, way, way more money and I can't change these certain aspects of my life.

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

And so because of that, the all the money problems are kind of not really money problems anymore.

[Listener]

Right.

[Time Traveler]

All your problems in life are non monetary. Think about someone in level one. Most of their problems could probably be solved by money if I'm being honest. Yeah. But for someone in level five or six, money's probably not the issue. And so I try to shift the focus of the book and of course the non financial things matter no matter where you are in the wealth ladder. But I think the mistake people in level five most likely make is they're overlooking all the non financial pieces and they're going to get to their end of their life. They're like, oh wow, I should have taken care of my health more. Oh wow, I should have done this. And it's like, yeah, you could have had, you know, $10 million less and you would have been fine, you know, but you chased money for what end? Who knows? And you know, you lost out as a result of that.

[Mark]

I get that. I mean, you know, it's a funny thing that, you know, you have some things in here about happiness, but I guess, you know, being around people with money and with not so much money, a lot in my life. I think that what is always remarkable is how consistent the idea is that the people who seem like grateful for where they are, they are just kind of. They're okay. It doesn't mean you don't want to move up the wealth ladder, but to have, like, a little bit of, like, something going on in your brain to say, like, okay, I gotta have some gratitude here. And I know that, you know, you really do have a lot of gratitude for where you are personally, and that absolutely comes through in the book. Tell me about what Nana and Papa did. What were they all about? I always read acknowledgments. It's a little habit I have.

[Time Traveler]

So my Nana and papa, they've been like, the core structure of my. Because obviously my parents are divorced, and I was much closer to. Closer to my mom's side of the family. And I really think it's because they focus so much on family getting us together. And still to this day, like, no one in my family's ever left Southern California besides me. So they're all still there, and they're all like. They still get together, like, once a month for dinner and all this. And now, you know, even with people having, you know, boyfriends, girlfriends, kids, all this, and they still try and hold us together as a family. And I don't know many families like that that have that. They're so close with their cousins and all that stuff, and so that's really their wealth and what they did. And so it really was a good example for me to be like, hey, you know, money matters to a point, but at some point, like, you can build so much more wealth and so much more with these other types of, you know, wealth, so to speak.

[Mark]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a great appreciation for having, like, almost like an emotional safety net, if not a financial one. So I think that's huge. It really is.

[Jill Schlesinger]

Okay, if that interview conjured up any questions, we are here for you. Just go to jillonmoney.com, click the contact us button, write us a note, and if you'd like to join us live on the air, check the box. Mark will do everything else. Don't forget to sign up for the free weekly newsletter. If you had signed up for that, you would be getting that today. You can subscribe to this show on the Odysee app or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Our music is composed by Joel Goodman.

[Mark]

Mark Tellercio is our executive producer and.

[Jill Schlesinger]

King of all things web. And we are distributed by Odyssey. Try to lift someone up. Change your work, change your wealth, change your life. Thanks for listening and we'll talk to you on Monday.

[Customer]

Olivia loves a challenge. It's why she lifts heavy weights and likes complicated recipes. But for booking her trip to Paris, Olivia chose the easy way With Expedia. She bundled her flight with a hotel to save more. Of course, she still climbed all 674 steps to the top of the Eiffel Tower. You were made to take the easy route. We were made to easily package your trip. Expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.

[Moth Podcast Host]

Every week on the Moth podcast we hear from incredible people who have found their own voice.

[Carvana Ad Voice]

There's this little bit of wisdom people say all the time, you know, that you should live in the moment. Let me tell you something, there is nothing worse than being forced to live in the moment.

[Moth Podcast Host]

The Moth podcast features real people telling their stories live on stage to connect and learn from them. Follow and listen to the Moth on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.