Transitioning Back Into the Workforce

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jill on Money with Jill Schlesinger
Episode: Transitioning Back Into the Workforce
Date: May 8, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on the experience of "Patty," a 42-year-old recent pharmacy graduate transitioning back into the workforce. Host Jill Schlesinger uses Patty’s financial journey as a case study to offer practical advice on managing student loans, leveraging cash savings, and making savvy decisions about debt repayment and investing, especially for those embarking on a new career or returning to work later in life. The discussion highlights strategies for setting oneself up financially after a major life or career change, demystifying the jargon and keeping suggestions actionable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Patty’s Transition: Graduate School & Career Shift

[04:01]

• Patty is about to graduate with a doctorate in pharmacy after working as a pharmacy technician.
• Her motivation to return: interest in science and a significant potential income increase.
  • Jill (to Patty): “Did you know that doing so would mean some step up in income? Was that part of it?”
    Patty: “Yes, that was definitely a big part of it.”
• Pharmacy offers varied career options—not just retail or hospital, but also industry roles.

2. Current Job Market Realities

[03:00]

• Jill opens with commentary on the labor market, noting it feels “weird—it's not really bad but it's not really good,” and acknowledges listener anxieties about opportunities.
• She relates this to Small Business Week and the possibilities/challenges for new graduates.

3. Patty’s Financial Situation: Savings, Debt, and Assets

[06:22 - 11:27]

• Patty has not accepted a job yet but is confident about opportunities.
• Financed school with a mix of federal loans ($85,000 at 6.5–8.08%), savings, and a $16,000 balance on a 0% interest credit card.
• Asset rundown:

  • 401k: $472,000 (with pre-tax and Roth portions)

  • Roth IRA: $79,000

  • Brokerage account: $95,000

  • Inherited IRA: $77,000 (began distributions in 2018)

  • High yield savings: $467,000 at 3.9%

  • Owns home outright, valued at $170,000

  • Jill (upon hearing about the cash): “What are you doing with this debt? Are you out of your mind?” [10:30]

4. Upcoming Income & Lifestyle Adjustments

[12:13]

• Expected starting salary: At least $120,000, up from previous $40-45,000/year.
• No kids, unmarried, no surviving parents or siblings.
• Plans to possibly relocate for work.
• Expenses projected around $7,000/month once resettled; plans for a cushion at least 12 months' expenses for peace of mind.

5. Jill’s Recommendations

Debt Repayment:

[14:35 - 17:33]

• Pay off federal loans ($85K) and credit card debt ($16K) immediately from high yield savings.
  • Jill: “We're going to get you quite directed. … You're paying off $85,000 immediately.”
  • Jill: “Why would I pay 6.5 to 8% of money when I'm only earning 3.9%? That should get done today.”

Emergency Reserve:

• Retain $100K in high yield savings for 12 months’ expenses.
• Keep extra liquid since housing/career situation is in flux.

Inherited IRA Strategy:

[18:00 - 19:56]

• Take the entire $77,000 inheritance out this year while income is low (most taxed at 12% rate, some at 22%).
  • Jill: “This is the year to do it. … Once you start earning $120K … you’re going to be in the 24% bracket.” (advising taking it out before a jump in tax bracket)

Investments & Roth Conversions:

[19:56 - 21:19]

• Patty already doing in-plan Roth conversions with her 401k; Jill recommends pausing to focus on inherited IRA this year.
• In future high-earning years, continue gradual Roth conversions at 22-24% bracket if it aligns with long-term tax planning.

Housing:

• Consider using liquid cash for future home purchase if moving; hold off investing until plans settle.

Estate Planning:

[23:56 - 25:32]

• As a single individual with little family in the US, Patty needs basic estate documents and an executor here, even if she wishes to leave assets to overseas relatives or charity.
  • Jill: “A qualified estate attorney would be easy to do that.”
  • “While after the boards, you got to get past the boards. … But after that, … you should sit down and do that.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jill (on Patty’s cash balance):
  “What are you doing with this debt? Are you out of your mind?” [10:30]

• Jill (on debt repayment):
  “You’re going to take money from your high yield savings account. You’re paying off $85,000 immediately … that should get done today.” [15:57]

• Jill (on taking the inherited IRA now):
  “This is the year to do it. … I don’t think there’s ever going to be a better year to do it.” [18:00]

• Jill (summarizing why grad school was worth it):
  “Even not, let’s just pretend that Patty didn’t have all this money. She would be coming out with $100,000 in loans, but she'd be earning three times as much. … I think that this would have been a very good bet—a wager to make on herself.” [25:33]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:01] – Patty introduces her situation: recent pharmacy graduate, re-entering workforce.
• [06:22 – 11:27] – Details of Patty's debt, assets, and savings.
• [12:13] – Income jump post-grad; plans for relocation and budgeting.
• [14:35] – Jill’s recommendations for immediate debt payoff.
• [18:00] – Strategy for inherited IRA withdrawals to minimize taxes.
• [19:56] – Discussion of Roth conversions and future tax planning.
• [23:56] – Estate planning when single and with overseas family.

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Flow & Tone

Jill’s style is warm, reassuring, and a touch humorous, blending practical advice with empathy for transitions and uncertainties. She tailors financial planning to Patty’s unusual position (large savings, impending higher income, major career change) and avoids financial jargon. By walking through the logic, she demystifies complex decisions, repeatedly checking with Patty to ensure comfort with each step.

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Key Takeaways

• Use cash reserves to eliminate high-interest debt—don’t over-prioritize cash “security blanket” when it’s costing more in interest.
• Take advantage of low-income years to drawdown IRAs or execute Roth conversions at favorable tax rates.
• Keep extra liquid funds when in transition, but have a plan to invest for long-term growth once settled.
• Estate planning is essential, especially for singles with no immediate heirs or out-of-country family; consider both family and charitable giving.
• Strategic career changes can pay off, especially when the post-grad salary far exceeds pre-grad earnings—even substantial educational debt can be justified.

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For Listeners

Anyone considering graduate school, changing careers, or returning to work later in life will benefit from this deep-dive into real-life financial problem-solving. The episode offers a clear, step-by-step approach to using assets wisely, eliminating debt, and strategizing for the future—all with Jill’s trademark blend of clarity, empathy, and directness.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

So I am going to graduate from graduate school next week. And so I'm kind of transitioning back into the workforce and I just want to see, you know, how I'm doing, where I'm going and things like that.

[A]

Oh my God. Do you mind us asking what you went to back. Back to graduate school for?

[B]

So I went back to school for pharmacy.

[A]

Oh, and were you like sort of a science y person undergrad? Like what happened in, in the, like from undergrad to now?

[B]

Yeah, so. So I've always been working in the pharmacy field, you know, as, as a pharmacy technician. And then it was just, you know, about time that I finally went back. I've always been interested in, you know, science and chemistry and things like that. And I finally made the plunge and now I'm graduating.

[A]

Mark, how many classes in chemistry did you take in college? I mean, if I had to take one because it was required, that's about it. I took zero. I'm not sure I even did that. Yeah, wait a minute. I took zero science classes. I regret it. Patty, do you think I can learn science at an old dog? Learn science now?

[B]

I mean, absolutely.

[A]

Really? It seems hard. So when you made this decision, did you know that doing so would mean some step up in income? Is that. Was that part of it?

[B]

Yes, I mean, that was definitely a big part of it. There is a substantial increase in income from the position I was to the position I'm going into. So, yes, that was definitely a big factor in it as well.

[A]

And like, for most people who are pharmacists, you're working at big chains these days because that's kind of what has, like this consolidation. Is that still the case?

[B]

Not necessarily. I actually do think a lot of people don't really know that pharmacy is very wide when it comes to jobs. I mean, of course, there's inpatient, there's, you know, retail, there's. You can go into industry. So there's actually a lot of different facets of pharmacy.

[A]

Interesting. So for you, you're coming out, you know that you have a job, so.

[B]

Officially, I do not. I have not signed on to a job officially. I know there is a lot of opportunity out there. I just haven't accepted any positions at the moment.

[A]

Oh, look at you. You're like in the very enviable position of choosing. I mean, that's pretty amazing considering that many people are feeling kind of, as I said, coming into this, feeling lost when it comes to their prospects out there. Did you have to. When you went back, did that mean spending down savings? Did that mean that you had to borrow money? What was the nature of how you paid for this schooling?

[B]

So. So yes, I did take out substantial loans, but I did have savings that got me through because I had to have. I had to move from where I currently am, so I needed to have an apartment and things like that. So I did dip into savings, but because I went back to school later in life, I did have, you know, a reasonable amount saved up.

[A]

So lucky to be old when it comes to this. Are you graduating now with a private loan? Is that what's happening?

[B]

No. So I took out federal loans. So the majority of it is all federal.

[A]

Okay, and what's the total that is outstanding upon graduation?

[B]

So at the moment, I have about 85,000 in federal loans. And I did do something a little. I feel crazy. So the federal loans, the percentages range from 6.5% to 8.08. So this last year, with that 8% interest rate, I took out a credit card with 0% interest and I put the last semester onto a credit card. That 0% interest that I'll pay off next year.

[A]

So what's that? How much did you borrow on the credit card? I'm a little anxious about this. I did just. I just put my hair up in a ponytail because I started to feel my neck sweat. I'm just telling you that that's the theater of the mind, Mark.

[B]

Yeah. So I put $16,000 onto a credit card.

[A]

Okay. Okay. I mean, pinky swear. We got to get this done so the rate doesn't jump on you, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so in addition to the federal loans at around 6.5% to 8%, the credit card, 0% interest at 16 grand. Is there any other debt that's outstanding?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. Do you. Have you plowed through all of your savings?

[B]

I have not. And I do have a pretty decent nest tag, and that was the only reason why I opened the credit card.

[A]

So tell us about the savings you have.

[B]

So I guess I can start from the beginning with 401k.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay, so I have a 401k at 472,472, you said? Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I have a Roth IRA at $79,000.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

A brokerage account at $95,000.

[A]

Oh, my God. Wait till Mark hears. He's going to pounce on you for this. Continue.

[B]

An inherited IRA that I am taking an RMD on at $77,000.

[A]

When did the person die?

[B]

2018.

[A]

And have you taken it out as like monthly or have you taken it out in slugs? How have you done the inherited ira?

[B]

So I usually, since it's not something I'm living on, I just take out it out at the end of the year. And it's only been a couple of a thousand that I've been required to take out since 2018.

[A]

Of course, you could take more if you wanted to. Okay, so I forgot to ask you a very key piece of information. How old are you?

[B]

42.

[A]

Are you married or single or partnered, I should say. Kids or no kids.

[B]

No kids.

[A]

Okay, so we got you, and we got your debt, and you got a beautiful balance sheet. Tell us beyond now. We have. We just went through a lot of money. Is there any money in just liquid savings? So not just the brokerage, but like a boring bank cd, anything like that?

[B]

Yes. So I have. This is kind of. I feel like the bulk of everything. So I have a high yield savings, and that's actually 487,000.

[A]

What are you talking. What are you doing with this debt. Are you out of your mind?

[B]

Well, right. So I. So, because I am, you know, a single individual without any. Any lifeline. I guess I was worried about, you know, going school.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. Okay, let's keep going. And then we are going to take care of this. This is going to be cleaned. This is like, Patty, this is going to be simple, and we're going to get you quite directed. Okay. In High yield Savings, you have $487,000. What's it earning? 3.

[B]

It's at 3.9. It's 467.

[A]

Oh, sorry. Sorry, Jill, pay attention. And then you have other savings in addition to that. High yield savings.

[B]

Nope, that. That is the bulk of it.

[A]

That's it. Okay, so we have the high Yield Savings, the 401k, the Roth, the inherited IRA, and the brokerage account. In addition to that high yield savings. Do you own a home or are you renting?

[B]

I do. I do own a home outright.

[A]

Okay, what's the bargain? I know.

[B]

So it's worth about 170.

[A]

Okay. No mortgage. And is this in a place where you want to stay?

[B]

Not necessarily.

[A]

Aha. So when you're looking at jobs, might this create the impetus to sell that and go somewhere else?

[B]

Yes. So my thought was to pay down all the debt, kind of get back to ground zero, and then potentially move elsewhere within the state, out of state. It's kind of, you know, open.

[A]

Okay, Patty, when you get that next job, tell us what you think the range of salaries will be.

[B]

So I plan to, at a minimum, make $120. That is kind of what I'm thinking.

[A]

Okay, great. Before, what were you making?

[B]

Probably about 40, 45.

[A]

Wow, this is a huge jump.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, okay. So, I mean, it's very funny. I. I asked that because, you know, we often will get people saying to us, like, oh, should I go to grad school? And, you know, you hear about what their plans are, and it's not like such a big. I mean, unless you're a career changer. If they're staying in the same lane, sometimes it's like, not that much more money. So it's interesting. That's why I asked that question. Like, I mean, to imagine tripling your income is pretty awesome when you are going back to school. And how. How many years did you have to put in to get this advanced degree?

[B]

So I already had two years of prerequisites to get into the program, and then the program itself was four years.

[A]

Four years. What do you get, a master's or what Is it.

[B]

It's a doctorate.

[A]

Oh, my God. That's incredible. I'm going to call you Dr. Patty. Okay. This year, 2026, there's no income, earned income.

[B]

It was very minimal, literally a couple of thousand dollars. So I would say no.

[A]

Are you going to go away and take some time after you graduate?

[B]

I mean, that is a plan I have set in stone.

[A]

But yeah, I don't really want you to earn any money this year. Obviously not. So. Okay, anything else that we need to know about you? Do you have, like, you inherited this ira? Is that from a parent? Do you have parents who are still alive you need to take care of?

[B]

Yeah, so there. So no parents that are still alive. And yes, the inherited was from. From my mother.

[A]

I'm sorry. Do you have siblings?

[B]

No siblings.

[A]

Patty, we're going to make have so much fun spending all of your money. This is so great. You deserve a nice break, first of all. And okay, let's take a deep breath, gang. Patty's in good shape, obviously, but the classic issue that I see here is that, you know, there was no need for you to take these loans at all. So the first thing that I would do is before you graduate, I would pay off the federal loans. Like, I would just get rid of them now, whenever this is, like, when does the interest rate start clicking? Probably when you graduate. Like in a day after you graduate or something. No.

[B]

So for graduate loans, which I did not realize in the beginning is they're not subsidized. So I have been increasing. The interest has been increasing for the last four years.

[A]

Okay, so here's what we're going to do. You're going to take money from your High Yield savings account. You're paying off $85,000 immediately. Like, right now. Let's whittle away this High Yield savings account. Hold on. So once you move and we figure that out, you're not the kind of person who spends a lot of money. So my guess is, would it be fair to say that you would spend like six grand a month, seven grand a month? What do you. What is. What's your guesstimate when you're, like, when you have this job, you're settled, what do you think?

[B]

Yeah, I feel like that's reasonable. Of course, my expenses are probably going to increase because.

[A]

Yeah, let's say seven. Let's say seven for now. Okay. So you know what, when we look at having an emergency reserve fund, we would say, hey, you know, you'd want to have 6 to 12 months of money set aside now you sound like somebody who likes the security of having a little cash cushion, would you say? I think that's fair to say. So maybe even if you put it at 12 months, 84. Let's say that your goal would be in emergency reserves to have $100,000, because I think that'll make you feel better. Okay. Are you scared to see where the rest of this money is going?

[B]

I am.

[A]

Okay, we're gonna. But it's gonna be very easy because I'm gonna appeal to your science brain, not to your lizard brain. Okay. So the first thing that happens is we have to certainly pay off the $85,000, because why would I pay 6.5 to 8% of money when I'm only earning 3.9%? That's the obvious. That should get done today. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Are you okay with that?

[B]

That still does make me nervous, but yes.

[A]

But you get it right? Why would I pay more than I'm earning in my High Yield Savings account? Right. Okay, so we're going to make your 467. It's going to go down by 100,000. It's going to go to 367 because you're going to pay off all the debt right away. Okay. Then we're going to leave 100,000. You've got 200. And essentially you will have $267,000 of surplus in that High Yield Savings account. Let me guess, you would like to leave some of that as is. Because if you sell your home, you want to be able to buy something wherever you move next. Is that possible for you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You think that that's a probable, like I do. I mean, obviously if you're going to move to New York City, you're not going to be able to afford it, so to just pay it outright. So. But you want the. You want to have at least preserve the ability to see where you land next. And then we don't have to. We don't. I promise you we'll get there with the investing. But I'm okay if in the next six months you're like, Let me leave the extra 267,000 in there because I want to see what the next place is. Is that fair?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. So Immediately of the 467, 85 gets paid off from the federal loans, you pay the 16,000 on the dumb, dumb credit card, which you could. Whatever. It's fine at zero percent. Didn't hurt you. Fine, pay it off. Then you're going to leave the rest in the High Yield Savings account at 3.9%. You have earned no money this year, Right. Except for whatever you're going to take out from the, from the retirement, the inherited ira, is that correct?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so when do you think is the earliest you would start working?

[B]

So I have to still sit for the boards. So my timetable is no more than four months and I think that might be even longer than it might.

[A]

You could just start January 2nd is fine with us. Okay, I'm going to tell you why. This inherited IRA with $77,000, you should take the whole thing out this year. Just take it out. You will pay tax at some of it at 22%, some at 12. If you want to finagle around, you could take 50 out this year, you know, do the rest next year. But you will at least take 50 grand out of that inherited IRA. Why? Because you are going to be in the lowest tax bracket this year that you will ever be in, probably for the rest of your life. And so you want to pull that money out and pay, you know, most of it will be at 12%. If you do a little bit more than It'll be at 22%. Mark, I'm sure you want the whole thing out this year, right? Like you said, I don't think there's ever going to be a better year to do it. This is the year to do it. Because once you start earning 120, okay, even with deductions, you know, even if you look at like the standard deduction, right, which is $16,000, even if you had a mortgage, which you probably couldn't even tolerate, just because you're you, you're going to be in the 24% bracket. So I think ideally you take all the money out this year, most of it will get taxed at the 12%, the, you know, a little bit extra at 22%, you get the money out, you don't have to think about it anymore. And now you have extra money. The money you take out of that, don't forget, you're going to have to pay tax on it, but you have plenty of money in cash. The money you take out of that inherited ira, I would put that straight on into the brokerage account. Does that make you crazy? Let me stop. Hold on, let me stop. How are you feeling about that?

[B]

So I'm actually fine with that, but can I just go back to my 401k and tell you what I'm doing with that? So out of that 472amount, 285 is pre taxed 95 was Roth. But then, so for the last four years, because I totally had the same mindset that you are talking about, I've been taking that pre tax dollars and doing an in plan Roth conversion with a part of that money. So 91,000. I have been putting it into Roth, paying the taxes off in that sense. So should I continue with that or.

[A]

No, let's take the inherited IRA out this year and then next year we'll figure out whether or not to keep doing that. Okay, so what I would do is you could, I would say number one, if this is the year we say, okay, I mean you obviously you earn some money on this high yield savings account, you have some taxable income. But if you took the 77 out this year, okay, and then you did like 20,000 of the in service IRA, you're still the top of the single bracket at 22% is 1057. You could do like 20 this year and still be at 22%. And that old 401k, you're not going back to that place. That's not even a. Is that a possibility that you would go back to that employer?

[B]

Yes, that is a possibility. That's.

[A]

Oh, interesting. Okay. And you can always do that, you know, you could always keep doing that a little bit at a time. I mean, I just think you're going to be in the 24% bracket next year for sure and maybe you'll want to convert some money at 24% because you're not, you're not going down. It's not going to go, it's not going to go lower. But if you were to go back to that job, would you stay in this house?

[B]

No, because they have other locations where I could still stay with the company and still move. So if I was to stay with the company that I am with now, I feel like I would stay in the same house for roughly maybe two to five years, probably five, certainly at the most, and then potentially relocate, I

[A]

don't think it really matters. You're going to be fine. I think that getting things cleaned up before you graduate or as you graduate, get your boards. But like, don't worry, like who wants this debt floating around? You've got the money, right? And so we're going to get the, so priority one, pay off debt. Priority two, take the money from the inherited ira, pay the tax that's due. Priority three, convert some of the money in plan from traditional to Roth up to maybe the bracket that you feel comfortable with, which I would presume for you is going to be 22 or in the future, 24. Then I think that next year, the big question is, what happens with the house and how much money you really need to keep in that high yield savings account. I mean, we're keeping a quarter of a million dollars liquid just because you're. We don't know. But once you have a better sense of what the game plan is, and that might be, I'm staying where I am. That might be I'm leaving. I'm moving to a different location. I'm going to sell the house. I know my housing costs are going to be more, or I want to keep a little extra money because my expenses. I'm moving to a higher cost area. So it's not 7,000amonth. It's really 9,000amonth. And I want to rent for a while. I don't want to own. Like, all these are questions, the unknowns that actually do lend credence to keeping the money more liquid. But in the next couple of years, Patty, you got to get that money invested because it is sitting there doing nada for you. I mean, it's making you feel good, which is worth something. I don't want to say that's not worth anything, but it's not. It should be doing more for you. How are you feeling

[B]

it? Like you said, having that money there is definitely a security blanket for me, But I am very well aware that I'm losing money by saving money.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I know it's tough because you are a singleton and, you know, I know this sounds like a crazy question, but I'm wondering, do you have estate documents, like, who gets your money if you should pass away?

[B]

Right. And that's the only reason why I don't. Because I am single with not much of any family. I don't know what to do with it.

[A]

How about, like, will you have anybody? Like, do you want to be like, a princess or prince maker? Do you have, like, dear friends? You're like, I just want to leave the kids that money. Or is that weird?

[B]

No, it's not. I do have family, I guess, overseas, so I theoretically would want it to be sent there, but I just don't know what those logistics look like. And I haven't sat down with a professional to kind of ask those questions.

[A]

Can you do that? Like, let's. On the list of things, like, while after the boards, you got to get past the boards. I mean, okay, but after that, like, we. You should sit down and do that. You could also leave your money to charity, which would be totally lovely. You know, you could say I'm leaving some chunk of it to charity. The thing about leaving money to someone overseas is that it's still, you still require having someone here in the United States to be the executor. So that means you have to tug on one of your friends and say, could you do this for me and help? Because you can't have it just go overseas. It's actually a pain in the tush to do that. So someone has to be here playing point and they can help. But a qualified estate attorney would be easy to do that. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We very much appreciate you coming on and sharing the story and for everyone listening. What a fascinating thing that, like you going to graduate school in this case makes so much sense because first of all, of course, she could have just paid for it out of pocket, which would have been easier. But even not, let's just pretend that Patty didn't have all this money. She would be coming out with 100 grand in loans, but she'd be earning three times as much. And so I think that this would have been a very good bet, a wager to make on herself. So I think that's a really smart decision if you are considering graduate school. If you are just getting restarted in a career and get in touch with us, go to jillonmoney.com click the contact us button. Write us a note if you want to come on the air. Check the box, Mark. We'll do everything else while you're on the website. Don't forget, there's all the content that you could want. Lives right there. There's another podcast, there is a blog, there are resources, videos all there on the website. You can subscribe to us on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. And it is Friday. That means I like to do some business. Our music is composed by Joel Goodman. Mark Teo, the best executive producer in the whole wide world and the king of our website. We are distributed by the lovely folks at Odyssey. We ask that you lift someone up. Change your work, change your wealth, change your life. Thank you for listening. We'll talk to you on Monday.

[C]

Some wrecks cause injuries that take a lifetime to heal and some never heal at all. These moments can leave families struggling with medical bills, long term care and deep uncertainty. At Morris DeWitt injury lawyers, we help real people navigate the challenges of life changing cases with resources and guidance. We stand by you every step of the way. Real cases, real injuries. Morris DeWitt Injury Lawyers paid spokesperson Trey Morris Shreveport Louisiana 251-9598 hi, my name is Lloyd Lockridge and I'm the host of a new podcast from Odyssey called Family Lore. In this podcast, I'm going to have people on to tell unusual and sometimes far fetched stories about their families.

[A]

I've heard my whole life that she indented the margarita and then we're going

[C]

to investigate those stories and find out how much of it is true. He gets a patent one month before the Wright Brothers. Oh my God. Please follow and listen to Family Lore, an Odyssey podcast available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your shows.