← Joan Ganz Cooney Center: Into the Digital Future
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome everyone to another exciting episode of into the Digital Future. I'm Jordan Shapiro and I'm here with my fantastic co host, Laura Higgins.
- [00:11]
B
Hi, Jordan. It is great to be back. And we've got a really fascinating episode lined up today, don't we?
- [00:16]
A
Oh, we do, Laura, we do. We're going to look at the world of gaming for good. And I couldn't be more excited about our guest on this episode.
- [00:25]
B
I know we're in for such a treat. We're talking to Susanna Pollock, who's doing incredible work at the intersection of gaming, education and social impact.
- [00:34]
A
That's right. Susanna is president of Games for Change, an organization that's pushing the boundaries of what games can do for our society. Right. How they can be more than just entertainment.
- [00:46]
B
Exactly. And today we're going to explore some really important topics. So we're discussing how games are used to address mental health issues, especially among
- [00:53]
A
young people, which is so crucial right now because there's so many challenges and anxieties that teenagers and adolescents are facing in the world. We hear about this, you know, they call it existence, existential angst. Right. Climate, client climate, anxiety. I mean, all really reasonable kinds of angst and anxieties.
- [01:12]
B
Yeah, absolutely. We're going to be talking about some exciting initiatives like their partnership with UNESCO and the World Food Program. It really is amazing how games are being used to tackle some global issues.
- [01:23]
A
And let's not forget the fascinating project that Susanna and Games for Change are doing with the Deepak Chopra foundation, looking at what they, what they, what they call the global silent mental health crisis.
- [01:34]
B
Yeah, I'm particularly excited about that one. And it's a, it's a really great example of how games and immersive technologies can be used as tools for positive change.
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A
Yeah. Susanna is going to give all of the listeners here at into the Digital Future a behind the scenes look at how Games for Change is working with major organizations and empowering young people to create games and make a real difference in the world.
- [01:58]
B
Yeah, I can't wait to hear more about it. Shall we bring her in?
- [02:01]
A
Absolutely. Folks, please join us in welcoming Susanna Pollock from Games for Change.
- [02:12]
C
So nice to be here. Thank you both. I'm Susanna Pollack. I'm president of Games4Change. I've been part of this organization for 10 years, leading our work as a global advocate for the use of games as drivers for social good. But prior to working in the games industry, I had a long career in television working for the BBC and was really inspired by development of interactive entertainment towards the End of my, my career there. And that led me into working in this world of games. And I'm a firm believer that games are the storytelling platform for, for the 21st century and have been able to kind of refocus my work in building communities, getting projects off the ground and ensuring that content and stories and media can be used for social good.
- [03:11]
A
Is that how you got to Games for Change? Was it this interest in the idea that they were a new form of storytelling?
- [03:18]
C
Absolutely. So the BBC as being a public service network did a lot of R and D, like they did a lot of really interesting experiments and telling stories, you know, just telling content in on the web. And this is, you know, prior, we're talking like 20 early, early 2010s and I just, I fell in love with it and I was trying and that was part of my remit and I was working very hard at the time to get these new projects funded, Narrative branch, narrative, you know, on the Internet. But it was all through the Internet and game shows like Build Robots and I mean like all this crazy stuff. And I was like, wow, this is awesome. And that's what took me on this journey.
- [04:04]
A
So we of course know, but I don't know if all our listeners know. Why don't you tell our listeners about Games for Change and tell us about what it is, what it does, what it means, all the things that no one that people may not realize.
- [04:18]
C
Sure. So Games for Change is a not for profit. It's a global organization now with chapters all over the world. And we have a firm mission and belief that games can have a power beyond entertainment, that games can be created to deliver outcomes that are positive impacts on society, whether they are games that are used in the classroom for education, games that are used to build awareness around critical issues. And more and more research are demonstrating that games can actually be good for our mental health, our physical well being. And we as a convener have brought together different stakeholders to explore the potential of games. And that's really what we did for the first 10 years of the organization. We're 20 years old now and have grown alongside the games industry talking about this, bringing new people into the conversation, whether they're researchers or from academia, people from the social sectors, from NGOs and foundations, government agencies, and really kind of built this cross sector partnerships and collaboration. And then in the last decade we've expanded our work to work with a lot of young people, to work internationally with different types of organizations, and now have, as I said, a reach into some of the Most developing markets and countries, helping others learn how to make games, applying these skills to, for social benefit and social good and continue to bring in other industries and sectors, you know, into this space so we can have as much impact as possible as an industry.
- [06:12]
A
And so, and so what, what have you learned about what it takes to, to raise good gamers? I mean, we hear so much about the like, bad gamers and the cyberbullying and the. So what do we need to know? What do parents and educators and caregivers need to know about raising good gamers?
- [06:27]
C
Well, raising good gamers is a passion of ours. We have an initiative that we started a number of years ago with Katie Salen at University of California and Irvine and their connected Learning Lab. And now we're working with Take this on the initiative. Laura, you are a meaningful advisor of our committee. And so, yes, we are. As part of that initiative, the focus is less about creating new content or new games for impact, but recognizing that the players and people who play games have created a relationship with games that have become a really meaningful part of their lives. And especially the youngest of gamers find themselves or can find themselves in situations that may not feel safe or they're unsure of how to interact. There's, you know, there's been conversations about toxicity and bullying and in games. And our approach to addressing this, particularly with this younger population, is to invert it and, and help equipped young people with the skill sets so that they can, so they can model good behavior in those environments that we hope will help raise a generation of people who are good gamers as they grow up in this ecosystem. We have a number of great initiatives that have spanned from partnerships with Cartoon Network that created resources and public service announcements for young people and their parents to help them converse together. And conversation and dialogue is a really big, big part of this when it, when I think it comes to ensuring that children and kids and teens are equipped with managing those, those potential situations. But parents are aware of what's going on and parents can help them in their, in their journey.
- [08:33]
B
I love that Susanna, as you know, media literacy, civility, digital citizenship, these things are all totally my jam. This is, you know, my absolute passion in life, helping young people and families just have that resilience to spot the signs, to know how to act and feel confident. But one thing that we've really seen, and I know that, you know, raising good gamers and games for change as a whole was really involved in which I'm so proud of, we at Roblox are also doing but it's really this youth participation. It's not just about us telling or even, you know, giving the advice, but it's actually about getting young people involved in the process. And whether it's, you know, co creation, as you said, just engaging youth in being that positive force for good. I know that you've been doing a lot of work around this. Could you tell us a bit about that, please?
- [09:21]
C
In our mission to empower game designers to use games for social good, we also think about young people and the next generation of game designers. And there are terrific advantages and benefits, learning opportunities for kids as they learn the process of game design that benefits them as learners throughout their entire lives. Not just about setting them on the path to become game designers, but all of that package is something that we wrap up in a program we call the Games to Change Student Challenge. This gives kids as young as 10 to 18 the ability to learn the game design process, start applying that onto different platforms and tools that they're ready to use. Whether it's scratch, making games in Scratch, making games in Unity at the other end of the spectrum and anything in between. Kids are making games in Roblox and in Minecraft and using other tools. And we give them the ability to create games, but we ask them to create games about social issues. So we connect this idea of civic engagement with creation. And this program is running for 10 years now. We've reached over 50,000 students in the U.S. we engage teachers to bring these classes and this curriculum into their classrooms. Whether they are computer science teachers or English teachers, or social studies teachers, they all see the process of making games as a form of self expression, of storytelling. And it's a way in which youth can combine their passion, which is gaming, to something that they can bring themselves into. And so this program, which is now reaching international audiences, which is amazing, it ends with a competition every year which is where students can submit their games about different social impact themes and receive recognition for their incredible work. And we're receiving over a thousand games a year working with incredible partners.
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A
You've got to tell us about some of the really cool ones. Can you give us two of your favorite examples? Okay, let's not just say favorites. So you're not picking favorites, just two great examples.
- [11:38]
C
Well, I'll give you some things that I'm really excited about this year because we have some great partners we work with with NGOs and other issue oriented organizations to come up with these theme topics. And something that I've been wanting to do for a while. We are doing this year. It combines mental health, you know, concerns along with climate. And it brings into point a way for young people to explore what they may be feeling but don't have a word for. And what I've come to learn is eco, how you call it is eco anxiety, which is defined as the fear of environmental doom. You know, with all this messaging around the realities of what's, you know, what is happening with our climate and the, and the risks and that exist around us. And young people in particular, you know, are feeling this, the crisis on their mental health and their concerns about their future, you know, of the planet. And one of the ways similar to, to what we're doing with raising good gamers to address this is by empowering young people to do something and to, and one of the ways they can do something to take care of the mental health is by connecting to nature. And there's, you know, research and whole pedagogy about how connecting to nature can, can elevate right your, you, your state of mind. And by creating an emotional bond and a love for nature, showing compassion and care for nature, creating like having even sensory, you know, contact with the natural world helps, you know, helps with managing this kind of stress. And so working with an organization called Earthwatch Europe, we are offering students and teachers resources to learn about how they can take care of themselves by connecting to nature. We are calling that particular challenge nurture yourself through nature, which kind of has a nice little thing to it. And what, and what we're going to be seeing over the next nine months really are ways in which young people are learning about this issue, learning how they can take care of themselves and eventually expressing that through a game that they, that they're going to design.
- [14:04]
B
I just love that. Sorry, Jordan. Yeah, I absolutely love that. Susanna. You know, even when we're treating just low level anxiety, you know, the five things, one of them is like go outside, take some breath, smell, hear the sounds, literally touch the grass. So for us to be able to link that real world feeling, but also in online and gaming environments, I think is beautiful.
- [14:27]
A
I have, I have a different appreciation. I mean, I appreciate that too, but I particularly, what I like about it is there are so many reasons right now in the world for young people, teenagers, adolescents to be feeling real anxiety and real fear and real worry about the state of the world. Climate change of course, being one of those primary things. And I love that we are normally what we hear on the news is, it's because of the phones and the games and the screens. That's why they have the anxiety. So I love this sort of, you know, this is real, like there's real things to have anxiety about and then there's these incredible tools that our kids don't know how to use in the best possible ways in order to mediate their emotional states. And this is helping them. And I, and I love that. And I want to know if you're helping, you know, things that are connected to some of the other things. Like there's so much political unrest. There's so, there's so much, there's war on the news. Every time we turn it on there, there, there's so much, there's so much division. There's so much. So tell us about some of the other initiatives that are helping with other things with teen mental health.
- [15:34]
C
Yeah, so some of the other themes, it's interesting for the student challenge have to do with just that about managing and understanding environmental crisis, natural disasters and conflict and how that can also affect how you engage with your communities. Another thing that we're working on with the Whitaker Peace and Development Initiative and that was found by Forest Whitaker, the actor.
- [16:03]
A
I've heard of him.
- [16:04]
C
Yeah, he's amazing. He's an amazing actor and obviously a very, you know, deep and well meaning individual. And he's created this initiative, it's called Peace Formers. And that theme addresses the. The idea or explores the idea that to having a peaceful society can be challenging when things that are happening around your world seems to be in conflict or out of your control, like natural disasters or political conflicts and how one can create a peaceful environment by managing, but you know, by managing your reaction to those situations and many times helping address and contributing to fixing those situations and how those are inextricably linked. And to me that was just a really interesting connection and one that opens, allows teens and young people to explore a lot of different things, but at the same time understanding that your community and your own well being is tied to peaceful interactions. The last one, which we're also really excited about this year, is with a global institution that I think most people are familiar with. It's a UN agency called the World Food Program that is one of the biggest humanitarian UN agencies that deal with disaster relief by getting food to the most and aid to the most underserved areas and people in need. And they have an education mission right now to work with young people to help them understand the challenges that people have around food scarcity and hunger. And as part of our partnership with them, they have helped us design this this challenge for kids to be thinking about those issues, breaking it down to things that, that we hope are relatable because sometimes these, you know, big global issues can be paralyzing, right. And feel so, you know, out of their control. But we, we have adapted these, this particular theme to be thinking about personal nutrition, about communities that may be, have, are facing school, facing food scarcities and how they can contribute to help solving these problems through things that they are experiencing at school, whether it's cafeteria lunch or food banks locally. And, and it's a way in which getting young people to start caring about those, those in their, in their communities that may not be as, as fortunate as them.
- [18:53]
A
And, and so just again, so what does it look like? So it's really like kids are doing digital media expressions in order to address these. What is it? I want the listeners to understand what does it look like practically or how can they see it?
- [19:11]
C
Okay, so whether their kids are invited into the program through a teacher, and we have teachers all over the country saying this is a great unit for us to do in the classroom or they want to explore this themselves, we have one, we have curriculum for kids to learn about game design. Like what is a game, what are the parts of a game, things that have nothing to do with digital media whatsoever. But then we have toolkits on how to, how to build a game in Scratch or are in Minecraft or in Roblox. And then they can make a game themselves or with friends. We kids can partner up to four people. And that's, that's what's so great too about the collaborative nature of game making. You don't have to be someone who loves coding, right? You can be an artist or a storyteller, a musician, you know, and, and collaborate together in creating a game that could be a narrative game where you literally are telling a story, or it could be a puzzle game or it could be, you know, a game that is quiz. Like, you know, there's so many different formats to what the game can be. And they learn about these different formats throughout this, this program. And then they also have access to hear from professionals in the field. So we have a series called the Level up series, which is virtual and free, where kids are learning from, they hear from character art designers or they're learning from people who are experts in building in Minecraft or in Roblox, and they're also learning and they have opportunities to hear about these issues from someone from the World Food Program or somebody from the Whitaker Peace and Development Initiative. And then at the end of the program, they submit their game and we have professionals and subject matter experts reviewing those games. We have over 300 people looking at these games. They are so fabulous. The games can be anything from like the first level or a working prototype. We know the kids are just learning this and it's less about the, the final outcome, the product itself, as much as it's about how much the participants are embracing the themes, are able to tell, to share the messages that they want to share. Yes. And how fun the game is and is it fun to play. We have our prizes and our categories just separates middle school students. We have a junior version and a senior version and you can get prizes for games for each of the themes and we have a grand prize winner. Take Two Interactive, which is the parent company of Rockstar Games, they make, you know, and NBA 2K and great, great stuff. Give scholarships to winners and you can win up a ten, up to a ten thousand dollar scholarship.
- [22:04]
B
Really amazing. Yeah, really amazing.
- [22:07]
C
It's a fun program.
- [22:08]
B
It is great. Susanna, you and I were chatting recently and you know, we work on several projects together, which is always a joy. But we had this great conversation about a VR experience that you'd come across or had been involved in that was really all still on this theme of like mental health and image and all of that stuff. Can you tell us a little bit about that, please? Sure.
- [22:28]
C
Well, first I'll say that about seven, eight years ago, when virtual reality kind of, I'll say mania started happening when, you know, Oculus came out with their virtual reality headset, the VR headset and HTC and these other hardware manufacturers started developing these experiences. We thought we saw a games for change, an opportunity to help build a community, a practice around virtual reality games and just experiences in general so that we don't just see, you know, first person shooter games in, in this medium. And so we've been helping a number of creators work on not only the creation of some games, but also NVR experiences, but impact programs so that these experiences can get out into the world for people that they can help. It's a lot different with games, right? Games, the hardware is distributed, everyone has a phone. With virtual reality, it's more challenging to get this into the hands of people, particularly if it's an impact experience that you want to serve. There was a series, it started with one project, but now there are a series of virtual reality experiences that we've gotten involved in by a production company in the UK called Anagram. It uses virtual reality as, as a Way in which to help reduce stigma around mental health and other brain health sentiments. Right. And issues. And one of the really interesting thing about I think about virtual reality is the ability to help to allow one to experience they say, the lived experience of someone else because it's a completely immersive experience and the different affordances of the actual. The technology. You could actually see the world through somebody else's eyes. You can experience symptoms and sounds and distorted visuals. And so they've created this. Just two beautiful pieces. First one is called Goliath that centers around psychosis and a young man with schizophrenia. And what's so interesting about that piece is and experiencing it is that they've designed it in a way that, that you know, you see, you know you have. You can experience these symptoms, whether auditory or hallucinatory moments, but you also are able to go through an emersonal emotional journey through this young man. And the connection really for us was that this young man who went unfortunately went in and out of mental institutions and health institutions through the most part of his young life as he tried to balance with medication and other other inputs to help him engage and be able to live in, you know, in society. And it wasn't until he was able to engage in online gaming and develop a Persona through gaming avatar that he found himself able to engage with others. Of course there was treatment involved and I don't mean to negate all of that but I'm saying. But he was able to move to develop new relationships through gaming. And his, his profile was called is called Goliath. And he became, you know, and is well known as a gamer. And as you go through this experience, this virtual reality experience they having, they've embedded a lot of gaming elements into it because it's part of and. And it's just really be beautifully made. So the piece went on to win awards at like festivals, the Venice Film Festival, sun, south by Southwest. But what we want and is available on the Meta, you know, questor but what we want to do with it is and have started to develop partnerships is to use this, this virtual reality experience as a way to start conversations, help reduce stigma for others who are caregivers, who are friends, who are, you know, loved ones of people with, with psychosis so that they can better understand what's they're they're going through. So we've developed material that can be used to help people understand what the experience is that they're going to be having and then facilitation and discussion guides about what they. About how they can talk about this now that they've had experience. And we are going to be bringing this to college campuses. There's a version that will likely go to high schools as well and then also in nursing schools and in veterans hospitals. And that's just, you know, which is really amazing about this medium. And the next project that was just released is about ADHD called Impulse. And it tells the story of four different individuals who grew up with adhd. And again, and the idea and the opportunity there is, is to help people understand what people experience who are living the day to day with adhd.
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B
I'm just gonna. I know, I know. We need to move on. That's so inspirational to hear. And I'm seeing and hearing more use of, you know, both virtual reality, but generally games to help both empower for people to tell their story, but also that therapeutic piece. I believe I just met a wonderful woman called Sarah who created an, a VR experience called Soul Paint. I believe she won the Games for Change award this year as well as the south by Southwest award. But again, this is a very kind of really visceral experience where people learn to how, how your emotions and feelings are actually physically things that you feel, whether it's butterflies, whether it's, you know, the tingles that you get or you're getting goosebumps on your arms. And just having a possibility to literally paint the feelings you're having is, you know, you can just see so many amazing opportunities. So thank you for leaning into it. Really excited to see more of this stuff coming. I'm going to pass over to you, Jordan.
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A
Yeah, it's very, it's, it's very, it's, it's very exciting. I can't wait to, I can't wait to see some of these examples that you, that you just, that you just shared with us. But, but we have to wind down because we're getting to the end of our time. So I want, I want to ask you a more, a more general question. You know, I already hinted at it. Like, there's so much in the media now about, about teens and mental health and blaming it on digital media that's not new. It's, I mean, this is a new manifestation of it currently. But it's been going that technophobia has been there for at least as long as I've been in this field. So, and certainly long, long before that. But I'm just sort of curious like this, like, like, what do you think is the, is the state of young people and media right now? Like, how do you think about it, this is your, like, how do you feel? Like, what's the sense of, you know, should we have this sort of kids these days, generational angst, like, oh, this new generation, shouldn't we? Where should we? Where shouldn't we? I don't know. I'm sure you think about this all the time. So, so what are your general thoughts?
- [30:06]
C
Well, I will say kind of as a blanket statement, I don't think we give young people enough credit. I don't think we give them enough credit that they can learn and use the medium, the technology responsibly. I don't think they necessarily know out of the gate what that means. But I think when it comes to, you know, this argument about banning cell phones in schools, right, Cell phones is a piece of technology. There's content that comes through it which can either be, you know, inappropriate for a student, can lead to distractions in schools. I mean, all of that is, you know, is. Exists, it's there. But I feel that the conversation is not. And many people are saying the answer is to ban cell phones from schools outright. And I think we miss an opportunity there. And this same thing goes about games, right, about saying that games are also a distraction and lead to addiction. I think that we miss an opportunity to teach kids how to manage and use technology responsibly. Cell phones, I mean, what is it the Pew Research center said that 95% of teens have access to a smartphone. I mean, it's an integral part of their lives, right? So rather than avoiding the issue, I think students, schools should help students develop healthy digital habits. They should be teaching media literacy and teach responsible phone usage, like limiting screen time and how to use apps or games for productivity. But to participate in helping young people develop balance, you know, a balanced tech use, right, that helps with their mental health and their well being. So that's, that's number one. And, and also, you know, acknowledging that these tools, smartphones or, and games, they could be a powerful tool for learning and there's great content out there and that great content can, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't be available if we just like, as I said, blanket, like, like say you can't use it. So there's also the appreciation and recognizing that there's positive things that are happening within these mediums. And again, you know, bringing those attention to young people rather than assuming and basically distrusting kids that they don't know how to self regulate and if, and that has other consequences about, you know, other developmental skills that we don't Allow for children, you know, to develop. If we are just removing what is the perceived issue in front of them here, here.
- [33:03]
B
I couldn't have put that better myself. Susanna, thank you. Well, I think that's it. We're at the end of our, of our discussion for now. Thank you so much. Susanna, was there anything else that you wanted to raise? Anything that we maybe haven't touched on that you wanted to share with our listeners? Business?
- [33:20]
C
You know, there, there is one initiative that, that we're involved in that I think is worth mentioning in this, on this podcast. So thank you for that. We've recently started a partnership with the Deepak Chopra foundation and it's around mental health. Another a way in which we can contribute to addressing what is, what is now and what Chopra foundation has deemed like a global silent mental health crisis. And they have acknowledged that games could be a very important tool to help address this, addressing this globally. And we're one small spoke on a wheel of different activations that are going to be taking place over the course of the next couple years. But we are now leading a games and immersive working group that is working together to help identify different activations that we can do that leverages both the reach the games have to the 3 billion, you know, players around the planet, the type of interactive experiences kids are and people are having within, within those games and how we can better educate and inform the public, parents, kids about, about the relationship of mental health and well being, you know, through this technology. And so it's a very exciting initiative we're just starting to work on. Mental Health Month is in the US is in May and I think we'll see a lot of activity developing towards then. But games are a great tool. This is another example of how great games can be a great tool beyond entertainment. And it's exciting to have, you know, leading organizations like the Chopra foundation say that this, you know, understand that this medium is a great opportunity in which to help people live better lives.
- [35:27]
B
Thanks for raising that, Susanna, and also thank you for letting me be a part of it because it's really exciting.
- [35:32]
C
I didn't want to mention that. I feel like we're doing so much together. Yes. And Laura has joined our advisory group and we're coming up with some great, great projects.
- [35:42]
A
Well, thank you. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to have this conversation and really, really great. Really. I mean, I think our listeners are going to be very excited about everything you had to say. Yeah. Into the Digital Future has been brought to you by Roblox and the Joan Gantz Cooney center at Sesame Workshop, presenting
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B
by Jordan Shapiro and Laura Higgins, supported
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A
by our editor, John Dodato and our
- [36:08]
B
technical producer Matt Clark.
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A
For more information, visit cooneycenter.org future thanks for listening.