← Joan Ganz Cooney Center: Into the Digital Future
Joan Ganz Cooney Center: Into the Digital Future
Teens, Tech, and Emotions with Dr. Lisa Damour
00:32:50
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome listeners to another episode of into the Digital Future. I'm Laura Higgins.
- [00:06]
B
And I'm Jordan Shapiro. Laura, did you know that according to our guest today, you can like binge watch Netflix as much as you want after a bad day at work? Like it might be good for you.
- [00:17]
A
Jordan, are you trying to justify your binge watching habits again?
- [00:20]
B
Okay, maybe. But the point here is that there's ways in which some of our bad habits can actually be examples of self care. And so what we're going to talk about today is really a fascinating discussion about teenagers, about emotions, about their digital habits, about the digital world, about the digital future.
- [00:41]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And we're really thrilled today. We've got an incredible Expert joining us, Dr. Lisa Damore.
- [00:47]
B
Yeah. Lisa is a renowned psychologist, a best selling author. She's host of the Ask Lisa podcast and she's written tons of stuff about teenage development. You find her articles all over the place. Place. And we're going to talk a little bit about her most recent book which is called the Emotional Lives of Teenagers.
- [01:05]
A
Yeah. And I will tell you one thing, Jordan, this interview is just packed with insights that would change the way our listeners think about teens and technology.
- [01:13]
B
Yeah. One of the things that really stuck with me was sort of her nuanced way of thinking about digital distraction. Right. She explains how so many of the activities that we often think of as just escapes, as just kids trying to get away from, you know, kids trying to escape the real world or avoid the real world that they're actually about helping them process difficult emotions, the difficult things that they're going through.
- [01:38]
A
Yeah, it's a really fascinating way of looking at it, Jordan. And it's so refreshing to hear an expert acknowledging technology isn't all bad for teenagers.
- [01:47]
B
No, no, she, she's, she. I mean, I mean it's not all bad. But of course we're also going to talk about some of the bad things. Lisa didn't talk about how the social media algorithms are actually not all good, they're causing harmful content and that these are, and really distinguish the things that, that, that, that parents and caregivers really need to be aware of.
- [02:09]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I think what some of her insights on digital communication were really interesting. She even mentioned how texting and memes enhanced her relationship with her own teenagers.
- [02:20]
B
That's right. It's not, it's not all doom and gloom. There's some optimism too.
- [02:25]
A
Yeah, that's right. I think, you know, let's not forget that her practical advice for parents is really what this one's about. She emphasizes the importance of understanding each individual child's needs when it comes to technology use. They're not all the same.
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B
Yeah, yeah, she's gonna, she's gonna talk about really, you know, avoiding that kind of one size fits all advice. I don't know. I. I think, I mean, it's, it's, it's just a. It's a great conversation.
- [02:51]
A
It is. So we've got this and much more coming up in our interview with Dr. Lisa. Are you ready to dive into the emotional lives of teenagers in the digital age?
- [02:59]
B
I am. I am. Let's go.
- [03:06]
C
I'm Dr. Lisa D'. Amore. I'm a psychologist who cares for children and teenagers and their families. And I do that in all sorts of ways. I write books, I write articles. I have a podcast called Ask the Psychology of Parenting. And I also get to do wonderful collaborations with groups like the Joan Ganz Cooney Center.
- [03:26]
B
And Inside out, too.
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C
And Inside out too. Yes.
- [03:30]
A
Yes.
- [03:31]
C
That was a really fun one.
- [03:33]
B
I know your work well. I read the books on girls when I was writing Father Figure, and I actually, funny story, started reading Emotional Lives of Teenagers, forgetting that you were coming on our podcast about two weeks ago, because I was just trying to figure out how to manage my own teenagers, and I thought, let me read, read some about it. And, you know, so I'm very excited to talk to you about it. I have a. I got a lot of questions. I live with four teenagers.
- [03:59]
C
Wonderful. Lucky you. Like, that is a good thing. That is a good thing.
- [04:04]
A
Yes.
- [04:07]
B
But, you know, I really. What I really appreciated about the book is just this whole concept of the way that the wellness industry has really made us just think that happiness equals mental health and that everyone's supposed to be happy all the time. And I don't know. I mean, I think, as you say, the teen years are supposed to be turbulent, right? They're supposed to. We all remember it. It's an emotional up and down roller coaster. I mean, tell us more about that perspective and why it's so centered in the book.
- [04:43]
C
So the good news is I've done this a long time now. I got my PhD in 1997, so I'm pushing 24 years where I've had my full credentials. But obviously I was caring for kids and teenagers before that and in my practice as I was in my training. And so I'm really enjoying bringing to this point in my career this sort of long view of how we've thought and talked about teenagers from a clinical perspective. I mean, not Just my own experience, but how I've worked with them as a psychologist and, and I can tell you we are in a moment that is unlike anything I have ever seen, where, as you said, Jordan, there's a lot of anxiety about what it means to be mentally healthy and a lot of misunderstanding in terms of that with people thinking like, you know, you're mentally healthy when you feel good. And if you're working with that definition, you're going to be anxious a lot. Because the natural aspect of being a human being, much less a teenage human being, is that you don't feel good all the time. And I'm also caring for parents who are more anxious than any parents I have ever cared for. I think all of the negative headlines about teenagers, all of the worrisome headlines about teenagers, all of the, I would say collapsed or simplified headlines about social media, have rendered parents incredibly anxious and frightened. And I can tell you I have never seen high anxiety or fear improve people's parenting. So that's where we are right now. Here's what I can tell you about adolescence forever and always. And then we can look at it in this moment. So the forever and always is that change equals stress. That is a cardinal rule in psychology. Okay? You take a 10 year old, which is the onset of adolescence, 10 or 11, put that kid next to an 18 or 19 year old. You are looking at people who are hardly from the same planet, right? I mean, they could not be more different. There is so much change in development compressed into eight years, nine years, right? Like I'm almost 54, me, eight years ago. I'm wearing the same clothes, I'm cooking the same meals. I, you know, like I haven't changed a whole lot. I have a 13 year old, I have a 20 year old. My 13 year old in 8 years will be a different creature altogether, right? Just a different person in so many ways. So if you compress all of that change into a limited period of time, it's inherently stressful. It's stressful for the kid who's going through it, and it's stressful for the people all around that kid. So that's the baseline. And then we have complexities like social media having weathered a pandemic, wild social disruption all around us, right? The adults are feeling more unsure of where all of this is headed than we have ever felt before or certainly, you know, in this generation's lifetime. So it's a lot. There's timeless aspects of being a teenager that are hard, and there are timely aspects that are Hard.
- [07:53]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I think that really resonates. You know, I'm also the parent of an older teenager, and I can really just, you know, really feel that, you know, I have so much fun with him now where he is in this stage in his life. You know, he's very much a young adult. We go out to dinner, we drink cocktails, and it's a wonderful thing to be able to do together. But, yeah, the thought of when he was 11 very much is like, oh, who was that person? I don't recognize them now. So much happens. But, yeah, I mean, one of the things we know is all about, you know, the risk taking, experimenting, maybe taking a few bad decisions and playing with bad behaviors, bad decisions and sort of working out who they are. I think it's really. It's very reassuring for everyone to go, hey, it's just a stage. They're going to be different. They're going to get through it. How do we find the right balance, do you think?
- [08:48]
C
So? I have a lot of empathy for how anxious parents of teenagers are. I think it's worse now than I've ever seen it. But it's not like it was ever easy. And, Laura, you brought up the thing that I think is the one we want to focus on, which is that teenagers do take risks, and they are built to do so. It is natural for them to do so. But sometimes they take risks that are really scary. And sometimes teenagers do things that cannot be undone. And what I can tell you from my time in of caring for parents of adolescents, this has always been the irreducible, most frightening aspect of raising a teenager, that you cannot lock them in the house. They are going to go out and do stuff, and they're sometimes going to go out and do dumb stuff.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And it's just painful. And I remember kind of, I don't know, a point in my career where I got to where I could say to families, you cannot. I cannot guarantee your kids safety. And that is really hard to live with. That is like. It just is an irreducible fact. Okay. But there is a lot we can do to help teens make good choices. And I think that that's where we have to spend our time and energy. So one thing I will tell you is that I can measure the safety of a teenager in terms of their proximity to adults. Teenagers who have at least one good working, trusting relationship with an adult are, I think, safe. The more they have, the better. Teenagers who do not have good working, trusting relationships with adults are not safe. And so this is how we measure it now, what's really cool is that we, you know, I'm using my hands to, like, make big space, less space. We can change how much distance we have from teenagers by our conversations about risk itself. So when, as happened in my home, my older daughter, when she was in the eighth grade, she came home and she's like, you know what? There are kids who are using weed gummies.
- [10:46]
B
Right?
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C
That is not what you want to hear as a parent. Much less of an eighth grader. Right. Okay. So the answer that creates a great deal of distance is, oh, what's wrong with those kids? And, oh, my gosh, if you do that, you're going to military school. Right? Like, all that just got communicated in that. But a whole lot of distance was created. The answer where you say, whoa, what do you think of that? Or, gosh, that makes me really worried about those kids safety, like, what's going on for them and who could help them. Now you've brought yourself closer. So kids are going to bring up risk. We're going to want to talk with our kids about risk. And it's the topic itself. I mean, I think this is sort of a magical thing that can bring us together and make it clear I am here as your partner in safety. Your safety means more to me than anything in the whole wide world. Blame all your good behavior on me. Call me if anything goes wrong or can put us at a great distance of what's the matter with those rotten kids. And if you do something like that, don't let me catch you, because you're going to be really sorry. Right. Like, those are two different stances that get two very different outcomes in terms, I think, of how safe that kid's going to be.
- [11:51]
A
Thank you, Lisa. I'm going to remember that when my son goes out on his motorbike later. Here we go. Right?
- [11:58]
C
It's hard not to lose sleep when you have a teen.
- [12:01]
B
No, I mean, it's a great example. I've definitely aimed to do that with all of my kids and to let them know, talk first. And that while there are boundaries, certainly I'm first here to be your support system. Of course, there are times where they go, why can't you just be normal like all the other parents? So you're up against a lot of social pressure in problematic ways. And what we see on the tv, of course, which is not always that, but I want to shift gears to the social media, video games, technology. That's what we're supposed to be talking about. And, you know, One of the things I really loved in emotional lives of teenagers was the way you talked about seeing this as escapism, which it certainly is, and that some escapism is actually, we all need it, we all do it. I certainly have the nights where I'm like, binge watching Netflix because I just need to veg out. It's been a hard day. And I think if I understood your position correctly, it's sort of. As long as that's not out of proportion, that's nothing to worry about. As long as it's not the only form of escapism. As long as they're not escaping all the time. How do we. How can parents know when. When we've sort of veered into this problematic territory versus just a healthy, you know, the same as any toy book, anything.
- [13:26]
C
So you are capturing something that's important in my book that I think is not actually so much circulating in the culture, which is, you know, the book is about helping kids manage emotions. And I bring across in the book something that's very well established on the academic and research side, which is that when psychologists talk about how do we manage emotions, we actually think in two categories. Sometimes you manage by expressing feelings, getting them out, as teens would say. And sometimes you manage by taming feelings, quieting them, as my mother would say, pulling yourself together. And so I think we've kind of come to a place in the culture where we privilege too much expressing. Right. That, you know, you can manage a feeling because you can just talk it to death. That doesn't always help people. It can help, but it's not the only answer. And so I really deliberately put on equal footing and gave equal weight to expressing and taming, because that's what we know is part of overall health. And one of the ways we tame emotions is by using distractions. And psychologists are okay with that. And I think that that has really not gotten the. The airtime it deserves. So for any approach to managing emotions, you want it to bring relief and do no harm, right? Whether it's an expressing approach or a taming approach. So if we then narrow down to distractions, brings relief, does no harm. So if a kid's had a hard day and they want to come home and just hop on their video game for a little bit and not think about it, and it helps them bring that feeling down to size and they feel better, and they don't then spend three hours on the video game and fail to do their homework. And that's a good outcome if you've had A terrible day, right? And maybe, you know, got into something with a colleague and it feels really lousy and you can't quite fix it, and you need to just actually step back from it and you can lose yourself in Netflix to just, you know, get some distance on it, get some perspective, come back to it, see it in a fresh light, because you haven't been ruminating on it for two hours straight. That is a good use of distraction. So if it brings relief and if it does no harm, it's okay. So kids can use digital technologies to bring relief without harm or bring relief with harm. So the with harm is, you know, if they're hopping on social media and they're being jerks about it, if they are hopping on social media and looking at stuff that's distracting but also bad for them and they shouldn't be spending time there, if they are playing video games to the exclusion of all the other stuff they're supposed to be doing in their lives, then you're into harm. So it's really just a question of moderation in terms of time spent. And then there's the content question. And I think there's actually a lot to say about the content kids are exposed to, especially on social media, and wanting to really put some nice guardrails around that. You know, as well as I know the research on video games, and, you know, it's really a very varied set of responses.
- [16:30]
A
Right.
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C
A set of findings. Right. The video games build all sorts of cognitive capacities. Violent video games are problematic. They're not bluntly as problematic as I wish they were.
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A
Right.
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C
I mean, when we look at the data on violent video games, they don't say what I want them to say, which is like, this is going to turn your kid into a violent kid. We know that it makes kids a bit more violent than they were, which is not okay, but it's a murkier picture. And so I think the content piece is important in its own.
- [17:04]
A
Right. I think so, too. And, you know, so Roblox is a very social space. You know, we saw particularly through the pandemic. It was a place where young people and their families who weren't connected in the real world would go and hang out. But with evolution of all of these spaces, whether it's social media, video games, wherever teenagers are hanging out together, you know, I'm quite intrigued of what's different between this and when they used to go and hang out in the skate park or a youth club or wherever they were spending time together. You know, are we seeing different issues and problematic behaviors. And you know, to the point of the content, a lot of that is either user generated or it's bullying or it's, you know, people feeling inadequate because of body image and all of those sorts of pressures, are they exactly the same as they were in the, in the, in the so called real world or are we seeing different sorts of issues emerging?
- [17:59]
C
I think there's different ones. I think there's some overlap. There's just some. What it means to be human gets carried across these different domains. But I think there's some differences. I'll start by saying there's a lot of, you know, this, there's a lot of pleasure and joy in this. And I have watched, you know, my older daughter, who's now 20, got social media later in her adolescence and has a wonderful group of friends and they are incredibly kind to each other in real life and they're incredibly supportive of one another online. And for her, I can say, and I know not every kid has this experience and I think part of it was waiting until she was a bit older. Social media has been a very pleasant, supportive environment for her with very little nonsense. And I think it's critical that we share that. A lot of what we know about the data is that social media tends to reflect what's happening in real life. So kids who enjoy, you know, a good social landscape tend to enjoy that online. And kids who are struggling socially, that also happens online. So it's unfortunate from a developmental psychologist perspective because we're like, oh man, the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, right? I mean, it amplifies whatever's happening. I think the piece that is unique to social media is the social comparison piece. And when we see data that I think are legitimately concerning and have an impact, also concerning in their own right and distressing kids, but also have an impact on behavior. The social comparison comparison piece is very real, you know, where kids are looking online and feel less than in any variety of ways. But my number one concern, like, if, like, what is it that social media can do that in real life? Interactions don't do the algorithms make me very anxious and I don't get anxious easily. And I will tell you, I am very slow to blame social media for things. I go very cautiously into that space. And I was working through the pandemic, practicing through the pandemic, and called my editor at the New York Times and I'm like, this eating disorder stuff is out of control. We are going to see a ton of kids with eating Disorders in the pandemic and after the pandemic and I was watching this happen in my clinical practice, I was talking to other clinicians. Kids were home, bored, lots of energy, needing to wanting to better themselves in some way. So of course they start searching for fitness, health, well, being content and suddenly their feed is flooded. And this is where the algorithm kicks in and makes me anxious. Flooded with imagery of ultra fit, ultra thin. That can't happen in the real world. And the challenge, especially for teens, is that they are vulnerable to norms. So, you know, more than kids are, more than adults are. So if you are looking at a thousand images a day of ultra thin, ultra fit bodies, the chances for a teen that that's going to change your behavior are not small. And so while there's a lot of overlap between what happens in real life and what happens online, the algorithms take us to a totally different place in terms of flooding kids with a very specific kind of content. And if that content is not good for that kid, that's a problem.
- [21:19]
A
I absolutely agree, Lisa. So in my previous work I ran helplines that were safeguarding children in digital spaces and dealing with online harms. And 2014, 15, 16, we were seeing even hashtags and things being used that were like inspiration thinspo. This was all being talked about. And you know, the reason we're having more and more regulation is because unfortunately platforms just weren't taking action. And we've already seen, you know, particularly around the most serious kind of self injuries and things like that. You know, we've seen awful outcomes around the world. So you know, just thank you again for raising that. And you know, on behalf of the tech industry, we are really trying to get better, but everybody needs to get better on that point.
- [22:06]
B
Yeah, well said, well said. You know, while we're, while we're on this, you know, I, I there, there's, it's been shown again and again the degree to which adolescents are, are influenced by social rewards. Right. The road, you know, not, and not just peer pressure like, like hard measurable neuroscience that can, that can prove that that's the, the, the, the improve peer pressure, I guess and I guess as we're, as we're having this conversation, I'm sort of, I'm sort of curious about the way that having a phone, having a 24 access to your, you know, 24, 7 access to your social group. Right. Are we seeing an increase in risk taking even, even when they're not in like groups of friends because they always have access to friends. Are we Seeing. And also even this question about, like, phones in school. Right. How does that. I feel like this is all mixed up in this question of this. This ability to have a social connection, to be both public there isn't the private. Right. So how does that. I don't know. I think you get where I'm going with the question.
- [23:15]
C
I do. Okay. So I actually think when we look at the data on risk taking in real world, it's going down like we're raising the safest generation of teenagers on record. And some of it is they don't leave the house. They're home. And so when I was a teenager, we were running around town, right, to see our friends. We had to go out, right? So they're having way less sex than our generation did. I mean, like, all of these things. Like, they're driving less. I mean, so in like, physical, material terms, they're actually safer than teenagers have been in a long, long time. And I. And I don't know that that gets any traction in, you know, in the discourse, but the 247 aspect of being able to socialize now, that is very real and very problematic. And I am all in on taking phones out of the school day a hundred percent. And I will, in the name of full disclosure, share. My husband is a high school teacher, and he is a gifted and career educator. And I think some very large degree of my conviction about why this is so important has just come from our conversations in the home. And he thinks so deeply and so carefully about what a profound distraction it is to have access to a phone during the day. And the reality is, if you're doing school right, it's hard. And if you're doing school right, you have to grapple and get frustrated. And there is no class that can compete with how much fun it is to hang out with your friends or go on TikTok. And so that tension existing all day through the school day is so hard on kids and frankly, so hard on the adults who are, like, really there wanting to give them what they got. And so I'm talking to more and more people in schools, more and more superintendents, more and more principals. It's not easy to walk this back, but I think really worth it to walk it back, because it's a great time for kids to be away from their phones. They are surrounded by adults. If you need to be in touch with them, you can be in touch with them. Losing so much in terms of social interaction and learning when the phones are in those spaces, and then they can have Their phones on either side of that. When I talk to teenagers about phones going away during the school day, what I hear from them is we're okay with it if it is totally universal, but if one kid has their phone and I don't, then that's a problem. Okay, fine. Right. And, you know, for kids who are privileged enough to get to go to sleepaway camps where it's a universal rule, they will be the first to tell you it's the best two weeks of their year. So as we think about things like learning and emotion regulation and, you know, focusing and tolerating frustration, Jordan, to your question, let's take six of those hours, seven of those hours out of the 24, and let kids really build those muscles.
- [26:19]
A
I love that. And it sounds like there's a real balance. We know there's been some really high profile discussion about banning social media and mobile phones for youth. And I think that's a little bit too extreme. As you say, we can't totally wind it back. We are where we are. But I think trying to get that balance isn't. It is really, really vital. You've been fantastic and talked a little bit about, you know, the potential risk or less risk now, but also some of the things that kind of worry you about digital spaces and kids being online. What are you, what are you kind of excited about? What makes you happy? Where's, where's the kind of optimism side for you?
- [26:59]
C
So it is really fun to parent teenagers and it's really fun for me to have kids on either end of adolescence. And what I love, love, love. I mean, first of all, we have so much fun texting and so much fun on a family text. And it's a way to be in touch with my kids that actually works really, really well through adolescence and really well with my college student, you know, in a way that, you know, trying to get on the phone for long conversations makes zero sense at all. But we have a blast over text. And same with my younger daughter. And then the sophistication and speed of the humor in teenagers, you know, the muscle they have built with how they play with one another, the use of memes, the creation of memes. I mean, I look at the stuff that my 13 year old is putting out or working with and I'm like, that is so much more sophisticated than things I was doing at 16, 17. I mean, like, it's really cool. And I did a piece years ago for the Times about teens and social protest. And one of the things I was really interested to learn is how much they learned how to do social protest and have very, very complex conversations by doing it online. So someone makes a statement, somebody critiques the statement, someone responds to the critique, and they are watching at a pace that they can follow. Arguments get made, refashioned, challenged, reworked, and again are at a level of sophistication that I know we did not have as teenagers. And if you are raising a teenager, you know this is true because like, they are on your case all day and they're right. And they're faster and better at this than we are.
- [28:59]
A
Yeah, painfully. Truly.
- [29:03]
C
And I am a better person for it and I know it, but sometimes it's a little exhausting.
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B
Yeah, I'm a better person for it because of it, not during it.
- [29:12]
C
Yes, exactly. That's exactly it. That's exactly it.
- [29:18]
B
One last question for you before we wrap up a kind of vision question. What do you think needs to change in our screenager discourse? Whether that's from parents or educators or researchers or policymakers or any stakeholder. How does our screenager discourse need to change? Or what would make it better?
- [29:40]
C
I'm a fan, not of telling parents how to parent, but telling parents how to think about parenting challenges because kids are really different. I have in my practice made different recommendations for children in the same family. I'm like, that kid cannot have social media. That kid. Okay. So, you know, I think it's very. There's a lot of variables, but you can give people ways to think about it. So I wrote a piece for the Cooney center about how to onboard kids onto social technologies. And I got up to, as far as saying, you know, I think that social media should wait until kids are at least 14, that there's a neurological watershed at that point that allows them to be much more critical of what's put in front of them. Then, you know, of course, since it was for the CUNY Center, I wrapped it up at age 14. But like, to take it a step further, right, like, if we're going to say, well, then how do you think about. So if you get them to at least 14, how do you think about what comes next? So one thing I've been playing with is this idea of like, well, think about social media being like a high school party. Kids want to be there, their friends are there and things can go wrong. Right. And those are familiar risks. We all went to high school parties. Okay, who belongs at a high school party? Not middle schoolers.
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A
Right?
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C
So kids under the age of 14 and then what, 14 year olds? The really level headed ones who will let you know if something is wrong. Those are kids who you can probably feel more confident putting on social media. There are also 17 year olds who will go find the darkest, creepiest corner of anything. They do not belong at high school parties and they probably don't belong on social media. So I think encouraging parents and caregivers to look at the kid in front of them, trust their assessment of who they are working with and then make decisions with some hopefully useful parameters for working with that information as opposed to handing down prescriptive guidance that it's very hard for the one size to fiddle.
- [31:34]
A
That's fantastic advice. Thank you, Lisa. I think I've got a few takeaways. And Jordan, I'm sure you have too. The conversations we've had in the last few days, this is all really good stuff. Thank you, Lisa.
- [31:44]
C
You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
- [31:47]
B
Yeah. Anything you want to add that we didn't. That we didn't ask about?
- [31:49]
C
No, it's just such. I love the work you do. It is such an honor to get to think together with you. And I was thinking the other day, like, I have the best job in the world because I adore kids and teenagers. And then my professional life puts me in the path of other adults who adore kids and teenagers. And so I have such a fun time at work because what I do brings the same people, people who have the shared interests my way and they happen to be my favorite kind of people.
- [32:20]
A
Wonderful. I hope I can join you in that now, Lisa as well. Absolutely.
- [32:27]
B
The digital future has been brought to you by Roblox and the Joan Ganz Cooney center at Sesame Workshop.
- [32:33]
A
Presented by Jordan Shapiro and Laura Higgins.
- [32:37]
B
Supported by our editor, John Dodato and
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A
our technical producer, Matt Clark.
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B
For more information, visit cooneycenter.org future thanks for listening.