← Joan Ganz Cooney Center: Into the Digital Future
Joan Ganz Cooney Center: Into the Digital Future
Teens, Technology, and Truth with Amanda Lenhart
00:33:50
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Laura Higgins and welcome into the Digital Future.
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B
And I'm Jordan Shapiro. We're so excited to bring you another fascinating conversation about the ways technology is shaping our lives and our children's lives and our teacher lives and, well, pretty much everybody's life. Right, Laura?
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A
Yes, children. And as every parent day knows, there's that feeling when you're just trying to compete with your teenager smartphone for attention.
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B
Yes, that's it. That's the, that's the parenting challenge of our time, isn't it? That constant negotiation between connections and distraction.
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A
And of course, it's not just happening at home. It's all teachers, families. Everyone's still trying to figure this out. And that's why I'm particularly excited about today's guest on into the Digital Future. Today we're joined by Amanda Lena. His groundbreaking mixed methods of research bring a unique perspective to the ongoing exploration of young people's digital lives.
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B
Amanda spent over 25 years studying how teens and families and kids all navigate the digital landscape. And her recent work offers some really, to me at least, fascinating insights into some of our most pressing questions about digital well being.
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A
Absolutely. One of the things I thought really compelling about her research is how she uncovered these new patterns in the ways that different students respond to the phone policies, especially when it comes to issues about safety and anxiety.
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B
And I think anyone who's listening now, you're going to be very interested in Amanda's insights about how families are adapting challenges, how they're dealing with all these tech issues in really creative, interesting and diverse ways.
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C
So. Hi, I'm Amanda Lenhart. I am a longtime mixed methods researcher. I'm an affiliate at the Data and Society Research Institute and a senior fellow at the Joan Ganz Cooney Center.
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B
We are so glad to have you today. And I guess I just want to start by you have such a long history researching teens, researching the Internet. So I want to actually start with your story. Like, how did, how did it begin?
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A
How did you get here?
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C
Like, it's a little bit of a crazy story, to be honest. I sort of fell into Internet research, if that's even possible. So, yeah, I've been doing this for more than 25 years, which is a long time. And, you know, I started because I was connected with this guy who was starting this research center, this foundation has, hoping to find. He was hoping a foundation would fund him and he needed somebody to help him propose the center to the foundation. And he knew somebody who I knew who knew me. And he's like, all Right. Well, do you want to help me write this? And I was like, sure. At the time, I was a youth sports coach, among other odd jobs, and I had. Was quite connected to adolescence. And so once the center was funded and we were starting our projects and starting our first new work within the first year, I said, look, I spend a lot of times with teenagers, a lot of time with teens. They're really doing different stuff than adults. And I think we need to figure this out. I think we need to do some work with them. My then boss and mentor and one of my favorite people, Lee Rainey, was like, that's a great idea. Let's do it. And so that kicked off our line of work at the Pew Research center, looking at adolescents and families. Really, it was in some ways, some of the most popular work that we did, really, because it's hard to do work with kids, and not a lot of other people were doing it. And it's been. It's been amazing to sort of watch this. Right. I look back, and I think. Right. Like, the first time, one of our early. One of our early reports was called Generation Instant Message. Right. Like, right. Right now. Right. It seems almost quaint. And really, I think it's been a great opportunity to sort of grow and learn over the years. I'm another person also where I learned a lot of what I know on the job. I did end up going to graduate school eventually, but I am, in some ways, very much a little bit of an odd duck in this space. But I think that also gives me a unique perspective, and I really have a great appreciation for doing work that people can understand and that people can take back into their lives. And so I think that's. That's one of the things that's been really fun about what I've done.
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A
I really love that. And I think Jordan and I sometimes think that we're experts on adolescents. We own a few, but we're still learning on the job.
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B
I'm definitely not an expert. I still. I can't figure anything out about everything. I think that's why we cut a
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A
subclass, Jordan, is to get experts to come and tell us what to do.
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B
That's right. I thought it was just so I can pretend I know what I'm talking about when I want to talk to my kids.
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A
We both do that as well. So, Amanda, I know that you've led substantial research on teens, mental health, digital well, being this really important topic. So we're going to dig a little bit into the fact versus the myth. So where are some of the wrong assumptions about digital play or magnesia? And maybe what's holding us back from addressing where the real issues are?
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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C
I mean, I think, I think it's tough, right? So, you know, I think we're in a space and a time right now in our country where we have a lot of real negative talk about kids and technology. And I think sometimes that's it's creating a climate of fear among parents. Parents are worried, they're concerned about what's happening with their kids. And I think one of the things that's hard as a researcher is, you know, many researchers in this space see a really mixed picture, right? And see that there's, you know, many things that are happening in the space that are much more complicated. And some of what's happening in the space and what makes it hard is that we really want things to be simple, right? So we want, parents want answers. People who work at tech companies want to have numbers they can measure and share with their bosses that show what they're doing. And a lot of that leads us to reductive thinking about, about platforms. And some of that leads us to focus on things like screen time. Right? Which I think we all know and I know you've talked about. Doesn't tell us anywhere close to the full picture of what's happening with, with how young people or how any of us use these platforms. There's so much more going on. It's a very simple measure, but it's simplistic and it misses, you know, the fact that I can spend two hours on the Internet using my phone. And the things I can do, I can spend those two hours doom scrolling and feeling really sad and bad about myself or other people like me when I get off. Or I can spend those same two hours in a community of people who are like me and leave me feeling refreshed. I can spend that time engaging in creative play. So I think there's so many different things that we miss when we focus in on screen time. I also think we focus. I think there's this concern right now that, as though the Internet affects everybody, everybody in the same way. And I think that's, again, it's simple. We want to know what to do. People want answers. And so the easiest thing to do is to tell people, do this and everything will be fine. And I think what we've really been learning over the last five or six years in the research space is that really what's happening is something more what we might call differential susceptibility which means that not everybody has the same experience when they go into these spaces and places as other people.
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A
Right.
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C
Both engage in different ways. Again, it goes back to the simplicity. Like, I may have a different group of friends and community, I may see different things, I may have different interests which lead me down different sort of algorithmic tunnels into different parts of the Internet. So my experience may not be your experience. And then who I am as a person and all the things I've experienced and all the things that are happening in my life, I bring with me when I sit down with the device. And so all of those things together, my network, what I see, the content I do, the things I engage with, and who I am, am, all comes to the table. And that means that for many people, using these platforms and spaces is kind of net neutral. This is why a lot of the data we've been looking at over many, many years is kind of like you don't see a lot that's happening. We see like tiny little effects here and there. It's because for most people, these things are pretty neutral. Right. Like, they don't change things one way or the other. I feel about the same way I felt when I got on as when I get off. Right, Right. There's another subset of people who leave, about 20%, 10 to 20%, depending on whose data you look at, who leave really refreshed. They love it. It's social, it's fun, they're engaged. It like leaves them feeling energized and better than when they were on those places and spaces. And then there's another subset, somewhere again between 10 and 20%, for whom they leave feeling less. Their sense of their own well being is diminished by spending time in these online spaces and places. And so, you know, I think what we're starting to look at is how do we understand who those folks are and how all these different groups and what each of those groups are bringing, what are the commonalities, if we can find them among the people who are suffering from these different experiences? And so, you know, I think those are some of the big things. You know, we could go into narratives of addiction, which I think are complicated as well, which I think also plays into the sort of negative narratives that we have. But in general, I think those are two of the big ones that I think really complicate how we as parents and adults think about these platforms and our kids. Yeah.
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B
And I guess, and I guess really at this point, it's even hard to even think about it in terms of in terms of like, arriving and leaving the screen time. Right. Like, I think it's so integrated into our lives in different ways. This is something that really struck me when I was, when I was reading through the research you did with Common Sense Media. Just following teens and what is their smartphone? How are they interacting with it over the course of a whole day and what are their daily habits? And if I remember that study correct, you found there's tons of use during school hours and not just the onslaught of a million notifications, but also they're using Snapchat and they're grabbing TikTok during all their free moments. And like. So in your view, what should schools do about that? Like, like, you know, like, like how do you feel about the smartphone ban in school issue? I guess that's kind of the question I'm getting at. Although I'm trying to do it with a little bit more nuance.
- [10:51]
C
I mean, you're pretty much going straight for it. I mean, let's, let's just, let's just go straight at it. And you know, I think, and I should say I don't, I don't speak for, I speak for myself in these, in these conversations because these are, these are, you know, contested conversations. So I think the data that you' talking about from the smartphones report, we called it the constant companion. And that is really interesting work because in addition, it sort of had a little survey with it, but mostly that was data that was passively collected off of phones. Right. So it's not just people telling us what they did, but it's us. It's us recording it off of the phone. Some caveats for that work. It only contains Android phones because of a lot of limitations that Apple puts on because of a privacy settings. And it's a small sample, it's pretty small. But one of the things we really learned is that there are lots of different patterns for use. One of the highlights of that work from my perspective, is we actually took a lot of that data and we took it to teenagers themselves and said, look at this. What do you think we actually learned a bunch of really important things there about how adult interpretation of the data that teenagers phones give off is not always correct. We showed, for instance, my favorite piece of data that we saw is we could see that YouTube was on all night for a number of young people, not everybody, but a subset of young people that YouTube was on all night. And we're like adults, look at this. We're like, oh, they're watching movies all night long. They're not sleeping. What's going on? Oh, my gosh. This is like, this isn't even on a weekend. This is like on a Thursday. And we took it to the young people and we're like, what do you make of this? And they're like, oh, well, that's me listening to my white noise and going to sleep. So I'm actually asleep for 95% of that time. Right. Or that's. I've got a music playlist through music videos, and that's how I listen to music. So I'm listening to music and I'm asleep. Right. So you, as adults sort of instantly go to this kind of negative sort of descriptor or sort of understanding of this data. And young people have this really, I think, richer understanding of what we're looking at. And so that, for me, was one of the most important pieces that I thought about. And I think that also leads me back to your question, which is like, what do we do about funds in schools?
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A
Right.
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C
And I was so interesting because some of the young people, what they would see that sort of the displays and the representations of other young people who had very limited phone use. And many of them talked about that, like, oh, that's what I'm. I'm aiming for that. I wish I was. That there's a sort of an aspirational sense of, like, I kind of wish I could put it down. And I do think that that's important. Right. I think there are really powerful reasons to take phones out of the classroom in ways that are. Where it's supporting learning. It is distracting. And one of the things I think we haven't really talked about is the feedback loop.
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A
Right.
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C
It's not just what happens when you, you know, so you have half the kids put the phone away and the other half are still generating notifications that make those phones go off. And that mean that young people know that there's something that they're missing. Right? It's that. That same sense that you have sometimes, like, if you're here talking to me and your phone is like buzzing quietly on the side, or maybe it's not, and you're like, wondering if you have notifications, even if you're not sure. It's that sort of whole sort of, sort of sidestep where you're.
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A
You.
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C
You have that sort of overhead thinking about the notifications you might have. And then overlay that with being an adolescent where what your friends think your peers are really important to you in some ways. Some of the most important relationships you have, and. And it becomes a really powerful draw. So if you can take everybody's phone or most people's phones out where people aren't generating more notifications, you also can sort of draw down some of the intensity of the desire to even look at it. So I think there's a. That. That strikes me as a very powerful reason to have limitations on phones. The flip side of that, though, is there's a lot of reasons to give kids the phones as well. Right. And I, you know, again, this sort of playing both sides is always frustrating to people. Just want to know what to do. But I think about the parents and the parent organizations who I've talked to where parents are fearful. There's a lot of fear in schools right now. People don't feel safe. Parents don't think their children are safe. Children do not feel safe. So I can think of an interaction I had with a local family where one of their older children is participating in a pilot of pouches in their school. And this child is anxious and has a lot of worries. And after a recent school shooting, the child didn't want to go to school, was like, what am I going to do if something happens? I won't be able to reach you. I won't be able to call you. I won't be able to call for help. And so the family actually talked about, like, well, should we put, like, a secret burn phone in the bottom of your bag? Right. And then the parents stopped and are like, wait, wait, wait. This isn't what we want to be doing. But at the same time, they were trying to calm their child's really serious anxiety that was potentially going to keep that child from literally walking in the school building, let alone being able to focus and learn in the classroom. So I think there's real challenges that we have to address. So I think I'm certainly supportive of making sure the phone is away during class time and not being used in a pretty strict way to, again, reduce the number of notifications and to keep that distraction from the school day. But I'm sensitive to the idea that being able to access your phone makes people feel safer. And I think we can't look away from that.
- [16:21]
A
It's almost like genies out of the bottle in one hand. We talk about that all the time. But actually, I love that idea of resetting the kind of cultural norm, the everyday norms that, you know, I talk about this with parents with roadblocks all the time. Like, you need to role model what you want your kids to do. If you are sitting and scrolling all the time, not paying attention. They are going to pick up that, that's normal. If you are using it and then being sensitive not to have it at the dining table, for example, then those are okay to go. This is what we all do. This is kind of normal ish behavior. But as you say, it does take everyone to take those on. So with, you know, really my sort of personal interest in media literacy, you know, something I'm always interested in, is where, you know, whose responsibility is it. So is it that we need to support parents more? Parents need to teaching, is it down to school, is it tech that need to do, you know, more of the educating and those sorts of things? Where do the regulators say they're currently in the world? There's regulation coming at every continent with the hope of making platforms and online spaces safer for everybody. But actually, should it take that and does that help the end user or how does that help the end user?
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C
Yeah, I mean, it's such a great question, Laura. I think we have to have a multi pronged approach, right? I think we've spent a lot of the last 15 to 20 years making this parents problems, making this the problems of kids and families. And I think we've seen that that's just not enough, right? Absolutely. We need to give families and young people tools that they use to protect themselves, to shape their environments, to make themselves feel better in these spaces, to feel like they have ways to manage their use and experiences. So we can't eliminate that. We also cannot walk away from the responsibility that other actors have in the space. You know, tech companies themselves have responsibilities. They've shown that it is difficult for them to enact that. And some research that I did shows really reasonably.
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A
Right.
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C
People inside tech companies care very deeply about young people. There's people who, you know, I don't, don't think people get into the kids and tech business wanting things, bad things to happen to kids. They don't, but they're inside entities that have incentives that make it hard to necessarily enact particular things. Which is why we also need regulators to come in and be like, okay, here's what we're gonna do, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna put in some regulations in place and all of these things have consequences. Right. Like bad or thoughtless regulation can create all sorts of weird incentives in space online spaces. You know, I think we can look to some of our previous laws from 20 years ago. CAPA, right. It was intended to protect children from information and advertising and their privacy and the privacy of their information. But it also made it really hard to get permission to do things for kids under 13. And so we have a lot of spaces. It was hard for places and spaces to develop for kids that age. We're now seeing it, and people are getting into those spaces. But for a long time, there weren't so many things for those. For people that age, partly because it's just really hard to do. Right. So I think we have to think about what all of these things, how these all fit together. But I do think it's absolutely a group effort and we all need to pitch in.
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B
Yeah, I think I certainly agree with you. I don't think there's anything you said there. I don't agree with it. But I'm just going to switch gears for a second and ask the big questions about generative AI and the large language models. And it's another topic I know you've done in research. I've looked at that research in a lot of detail looking at how teens are using that. Okay. I'm a teacher, so I'm going to be focused on the teacher question here, which is like a little less than half, as I recall, are using. Are using it to do homework assignments, to do schoolwork. It's about equally split between who's doing that with teacher permission and who's just, you know, doing it as, like, dishonest. Like. No.
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A
Or.
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B
I think it was both a combination of no permission and also, we don't even know. Right, right.
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C
And people didn't even. Haven't even talked about it. Right. Like, it's just like a void of information.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah. And that's sort of like where I was kind of getting at is like, schools have no ide idea how to handle this yet it's in such its infancy. I'm not criticizing the schools. They're trying. They're desperately trying to figure it out. They don't even understand what the qu. Even actually to the point we just made the kids using it for homework. I read, when I remember, when I read that report, I went. I went. I went, right. Well, it's only that low because a lot of the other kids don't even know how to act. Use it yet. We're too early to even for those numbers to really mean what it'll look like when it's really in everybody's. I mean, how do you think about this? How should education be thinking about this problem? What. What are the. What are the. You know, what are the unique you know, obviously, we're all going to be on the page. All three of us are going to be on the page of. This is not as simple as ban, ban, ban. It's a complicated question. So. So what are the ways we should be thinking about it, in your, in your opinion?
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C
Yeah, I think, I think you're absolutely right that right now, you know what the research that I've done suggests. And again, from. Lasts from the spring. So, you know, even in the generative AI space and world, things change so rapidly, right? But there's just this confusion, right? Like, schools are almost paralyzed. They're in a crouch position trying to figure out what to do should the. Should we wait for the superintendent? Should we listen to parents? What do we. How do we handle this? We don't want to ban too quickly because this probably has really positive things for kids, but we also don't want to harm young people by conducting, like, a mass experiment on students. And so, you know, I. I feel for administrators, I feel for teachers trying to figure this out. You have a subset of teachers who are like, yes, this is the best. They're already in there. They're playing with it, they're using it, they're enjoying it, they're encouraging their young people, their students, to use it. And then you have another subset of teachers who are literally just ignore it, don't want to deal, don't talk about it at all. And so that's the thing we heard from young people in particular, was that there's a whole group of people where teachers just don't talk about it. So they don't have a lot of insight into what to do or what's the right way to use it. And what we really heard from young people is like, hey, we could use a little guidance here, right? We want to do it right. Many of us want to do it right. Some of us don't. But many of us want to do it right. We don't want to be accused of, you know, of cheating or doing something inappropriate. So help walk us towards how we're supposed to use this. And I do think there was also some really, really smart thinking in some young people that we talked to who were like, you know this. When I start thinking about generative AI as a student, it makes me wonder what school's about. Like, I am. I don't quite know what. What is it about and how I want to approach and how. How ultimately this student thought we should approach. Generative AI was a lot about what we thought school is for. Do we Think school is to train young people for jobs? Do we think it's about getting you ready to go into a workforce? Then if that workforce is going to be shot through with generative AI and all sorts of, all sorts of proprietary and sort of professional spaces and places, then yes, please, by all means, let's integrate this deeply into the work that we do because it's really important that we know how to use this, use it well, you know, and manage it. If I think though, that learning is about learning particular skills, about learning how to think, about learning critical thinking, then maybe we should wait to learn certain things and maybe there's ways to bring generative AI in in stepwise fashion after we've mastered certain skills, right? So one example we heard from a young person who was in 8th grade or 7th or 8th grade middle schooler who was telling us about how they were learning to write five paragraph essays. And this, their teacher had created a very elaborate back and forth where first they took notes and then they took those notes and they hand wrote them and they wrote edits by hand and they typed them into a word processor. Then they printed it out and somebody else edited it. Then they re entered it and then they had a final page at the end and they printed and they put that whole file together and they handed that thing in. And that was the assignment, was to walk through all the pieces so that there really wasn't a way to use any sort of other, other tools to build the essay that you yourself as a, as a thinker, as a writer, as a student had to build all those, had to build those five paragraphs your. But then once that had been sort of mastered, this young person was like, once we figured it out, maybe by the time we get to high school, it's okay to use more of these tools to help me extend my learning in other ways once I've mastered this basic skill. And I do think that's, I think where I land, which is how do we use this, how do we make sure it doesn't disrupt skill acquisition? That's really important in the schools. But also acknowledge that this is something that young people are going to use at home without your permission and are going to encounter quite a bit in their, in their daily lives. And so how do we, how do we acknowledge that and make sure that we find spaces and places and, and make clear to young people, okay, here's where it's okay to use and here's where it's not. So yeah, I think that's where that's Where I start, there's actually more complications beyond that that we can go into. But I think that's my starting point.
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B
No, I think it's a great answer and I think it gets, gets to, it gets. You know, as somebody who's a writer and teaches writing, honestly, I don't even really quite know how it fits into the writing workflow yet. So, so, so I don't even know what it means to teach those skills any, anymore. Like, like we'll find out. And I, and I think, you know, your answer does a great job of, of pointing up. There's a lot of, there's a lot of questions and there's a lot of big theoretical questions and this is, and absolutely, with AI, we can't go with it with any kind of binary like screen time, mindset, like it's just not going to work.
- [26:42]
A
No, I'm just thinking about from a tech industry perspective how we're using generative AI internally to speed up our moderation and our safeguarding processes. It's been phenomenal to see the accuracy of what it's finding for us and just to really scale, speeded up our efforts as a tech platform, which is great, but we're also using it in our day to day work environment as a way, as a kind of, you know, new systemizing approach and a new way for us to kind of get things done smartly. So I think, you know, when we talk about there's one bit which is the traditional academia side of educating kids, but then there's like building a future workforce. They're going to need to learn these skills. It's going to be really vital for them. It's not just a tool that kind of, of oh, they can plagiarize off the Internet. So really playing with that kind of the positive side of things. You know, I know we've talked about some of the, some of the issues with sort of apps and you know, media itself, but we know that the Internet can bring so much gear into creative connecting people, you know, fact finding, all of those really interesting things. So a question for you personally then, Amanda. What do you do with your screen time?
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C
That's a great question. I spent a lot of time at work looking at screens and at data. And so for me, the stuff that's brought me the most joy is my spouse is a journalist and mentors young journalists as a part of his role and his job. And he loves generative AI. He's been building tools to help these young journalists learn and think more smartly about the kinds of questions that they develop. So we play with it a lot in my house. And so I, as many people know, I have four children who range in age from 29 to 12. And so when we all get together, we, you know, one of the things that we do is sometimes we play with tools. And so as a family, we've played with, in jokes around taking generative AI image generators and making, and making, you know, fun things. So we had a family joke about we have a, a possum in our backyard. And this possum periodically shows up. He's very resplendent, he's very fat, He's a gloriously healthy possum. And so this possum has become a family joke. And so we've made lots of AI generated images of this possum that now feature as people's phone backgrounds and go up in different parts of our lives. And so these are the kinds of things that, you know, bring us, you know, bring. Bring me and my family a lot of joy. You know, I will say I am though, somebody who feels very much like there are days in my life where I want to go back to the page where I spend my time reading actual physical books because I spend a lot of other time on screens and I, and I'm tired. I get tired of looking at them in my old, my eyes. And so, you know, I. There's. It's a real mix and I do think a lot about how to be sure that I have a lot of balance in my life about the kind of things that I do with, with screens and with my, with my family and the kinds of things that I do with my leisure time.
- [29:59]
A
I would love to swap your pot and story for. We have a pheasant. Here is a real kind of USA versus uk but we literally have a visiting pheasant that we do exactly the same thing with. And a really great example of that healthy balance of screens and not screens and a thank you to shout.
- [30:17]
B
Yeah, I've got, I've got deer, foxes and a. And a cat that has adopted the outside of my house. But we're pretty much out of time. So I'm going to ask you one final question before we wrap up, which is what are your predictions? What are your tech predictions for moving forward? Like what do you think thinks what he thinks over, over. Over the precipice?
- [30:47]
C
That's such a good question. And I will tell you, I've been doing this long enough to know. Don't you will be wrong. Here's what I can tell you we have lots more adventures ahead of us. There's so many more things that are coming that will complicate and enrich and enliven our lives. And so I think I can tell us that we are not going to, to. We are not going to walk off this path of having to navigate and think about all the different aspects of these technologies as parents, as humans, so that I can. I am 100% sure of what exactly lies down the path. I am not willing to speak.
- [31:29]
A
I love that you could have made anything up then. Amanda. Right?
- [31:34]
C
We will all have wings, right? Jetpacks. There's all sorts of things that are coming for us. But you know, and I do actually think that artificial intelligence and generative artificial intelligence is just going to get better and better. And so, you know, the things right now that help us know when we're looking at it are going away already and so soon. I think figuring out how we trust information and how we teach young people to trust information is going to be very complicated going forward.
- [32:04]
B
Yes, I think I agree with you as someone who spends a lot of time trying to teach this, the young people how to, how to, how to interpret and analyze and critique information. And that skill is becoming more important. You know, it's so funny. As you know, my background's philosophy and the humanities. I got into tech accidentally and I don't think I ever would have thought that the old analytical skills would come back so hard. But I'm pretty sure they're coming. They're coming because you can't trust any source source anymore. So that means individuals need to know how to evaluate sources and actual text in front of them, not just who said it.
- [32:49]
A
Yeah, 100%.
- [32:52]
B
Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you. I think there's so much in this conversation that I think our listeners are going to be super excited about as they head into the digital future.
- [33:05]
C
Absolutely. Walt, such a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on.
- [33:10]
A
Thank you so much, Amanda, Great conversation and wonderful to see you again.
- [33:15]
B
Into the Digital Future has been brought to you by Roblox and the Joan Ganz Cooney center at Sesame Workshop.
- [33:23]
A
Presented by Jordan Shapiro and Laura Higgins,
- [33:26]
B
supported by our editor, John Dodato and
- [33:29]
A
our technical producer, producer Matt Clark.
- [33:31]
B
For more information, visit cooneycenter.org future thanks for listening.