Jocko Podcast Underground #195: Teamwork (Cover and Move) Does NOT Always Work

Date: January 5, 2026
Hosts: Jocko Willink & Echo Charles

Episode Overview

In this episode, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles explore a nuanced topic: the limitations of the "Cover and Move" principle in teamwork. While “Cover and Move” is a foundational leadership strategy taught in Jocko’s Extreme Ownership framework—emphasizing mutual support within teams—the hosts examine what happens when this principle is applied to team members who are consistently toxic or underperforming. The discussion centers on discipline, escalation of counseling, leadership balance, and the necessity to sometimes let people face the consequences of their actions.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. When "Cover and Move" Fails (00:50 - 04:23)

• The Question:
  A listener asks if there are situations where "Cover and Move" becomes inappropriate, particularly when supporting a toxic or consistently underperforming teammate.

• Jocko’s Response:

  • Any principle, when pushed to the extreme, becomes counterproductive—including “Cover and Move” and even “Extreme Ownership.”
  • Covering for someone who is consistently late or underperforming eventually hinders the team and damages mission success.
  • Morality, legality, and ethics set hard boundaries: “If someone's doing something immoral, illegal, or unethical, and you cover for them, you're culpable for that behavior as well.” (Jocko, 02:35)
  • Repeatedly covering for someone doesn’t teach accountability; instead, an “escalation of counseling” should occur—progressively more direct intervention.

• Memorable Quote:

  “Yes, of course, anything you do to an extreme can make it bad. And this includes taking ownership... Cover move is the same thing.”
  — Jocko Willink (01:25)

• Timestamps:

  • Question introduced [00:51]
  • Clear boundary (immoral/illegal) [02:30]
  • Escalation of counseling [03:10]

2. Escalation of Intervention—Indirect to Direct (03:10 - 05:55)

• Strategy:

  • Start with indirect feedback: Ask reflective questions to help the teammate see how their behavior impacts the team.
  • If no improvement, gradually shift to more direct communication, ensuring the team’s performance is not compromised.

• Notable Approach:

  "My goal... is to try and help the person see how they're being perceived by others... Not to tell them, but to help them figure it out."
  — Jocko Willink (03:35)

• Tactic:

  • Transition from supportive to corrective: Questions like, “How do you think others perceive you when you act that way in meetings?”
  • If indirect interventions don’t work, move to clear warnings and structured improvement plans.

3. Handling Chronic Toxicity (04:25 - 10:06)

• Hypothetical Scenario:
  Echo poses a common workplace challenge: Should you withhold support from someone who is competent but so toxic that no one wants to work with them?

• Jocko’s Perspective:

  • Initial efforts should always be made to help and redirect, both out of human decency and business investment.
  • If someone remains a “net negative” after multiple interventions, the reality is: sometimes you must “let them dig their own grave.”
  • The “escalation of counseling” ends in either the person self-correcting or facing formal consequences, such as isolation, diminished responsibilities, or even termination.

• Memorable Story:

  “[A CEO said] ‘They can't fire me. I created this company.’... He got fired. Straight, straight.”
  — Jocko Willink (09:27)

• Tactical Steps:

  • Escalate from guidance → directness → warnings → formal process (written warnings, PIPs) → termination as needed.

• Timestamps:

  • Handling toxic but competent people [04:25]
  • “Let them dig their own grave” rationale [05:56 - 09:43]
  • Anecdote about the CEO [09:10 - 09:43]
  • Practical outcomes: isolation or firing [10:06 - 10:30]

4. The Importance of Leadership Balance (Throughout)

• Key Message:
  • All leadership principles, even the most foundational ones, require balance and discernment; blind adherence can damage outcomes.
  • Leaders must know when to shift from support to consequence, for the good of the team and the mission.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Just like everything else in leadership, just like everything else in life, you got to be balanced.”
  — Jocko Willink (04:20)

• “You can go too far with any of these concepts... Do you have to let someone dig their own grave? Yep... You can also just fire them.”
  — Jocko Willink (09:43)

• “There’s such a thing as people who have, like, a bad attitude and do all these things, yet do technically do their job for sure... Basically someone who rubs everyone the wrong way in every possible way aside from on paper.”
  — Echo Charles (10:09)

Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:50] — Listener Question: Limitations of “Cover and Move”
• [01:25] — The Dangers of Taking Principles to Extremes
• [03:10] — Escalation of Counseling: From Support to Consequences
• [05:56] — Letting Team Members "Dig Their Own Grave"
• [09:27] — CEO Story: Ignoring Warnings and Facing Consequences
• [10:06] — Practical Endpoints: Isolation or Termination

Episode Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is straightforward, practical, and rooted in Jocko’s philosophy of discipline and accountability. Echo brings in relatable scenarios, while Jocko delivers hard-learned truths from his leadership experience. Listeners come away understanding that effective leadership requires adaptability, the courage to confront tough issues, and the wisdom to know when support must transition to accountability.

Summary Judgment:
“Cover and Move” and “Extreme Ownership” work best when applied with nuance and balance. When team members endanger the team culture or objectives through persistent negativity or toxic behavior, leaders must escalate intervention—and sometimes, step aside and let natural consequences unfold.