461: A Reflection On Growing Up With Jocko as A Father. w Rana Willink

Summary

Jocko Podcast Episode 461: A Reflection On Growing Up With Jocko as A Father with Rana Willink

Introduction

In Episode 461 of the Jocko Podcast, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink engages in a heartfelt conversation with his daughter, Rana Willink, and fellow host Echo Charles. The episode delves into Rana's upbringing under Jocko's disciplined and leadership-driven parenting style, exploring the challenges and triumphs that shaped her into a resilient and determined individual.

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1. Testing Determination: The River Rock Challenge (00:00 - 07:18)

Jocko opens the discussion by recounting a childhood memory that significantly highlighted Rana's innate determination. He devised a simple yet profound test for young competitors during a family camping trip at Santa Lajo: swim across a river, retrieve the largest rock possible, and return. While others struggled with minor rocks, Rana emerged victorious with a colossal boulder, demonstrating remarkable adaptability and grit.

Jocko Willink [00:08]: "This was one of the first and most profound indicators of her level of determination in life."

This anecdote not only underscores Rana's perseverance but also sets the tone for the episode's exploration of discipline and leadership within familial and personal contexts.

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2. Rana's Early Childhood: Memories and Shyness (07:18 - 14:58)

Rana shares her earliest memories, highlighting her academic anxieties and a particularly shy phase during elementary school. She recalls hiding behind her mother's legs when strangers visited and a memorable incident where her older sister Freya cut her long hair without her consent—a testament to the familial dynamics at play.

Rana Willink [08:09]: "I remember elementary school a lot. Growing up in Ocean Beach and with my two other siblings... If I got a question wrong on the multiplication test, I would cry."

These reflections provide insight into Rana's formative years, marked by both support and the subtle impositions of her older siblings.

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3. Parenting Reflections: Jocko’s Approach and Realizations (14:58 - 33:16)

Jocko critically examines his parenting style, admitting to creating overly competitive and pressure-filled environments for his children. From rigorous physical tests to strict dietary regulations, he recognizes that his methods sometimes bordered on the harsh, leading to emotional distress among his kids.

Jocko Willink [15:09]: "If you can pull your kid out of school, do it... it's just way better."

Echo Charles and Rana discuss the implications of such an approach, underscoring the importance of balancing discipline with empathy and understanding. Jocko acknowledges mistakes, emphasizing the necessity of allowing children to navigate their paths without undue pressure.

Jocko Willink [33:16]: "Be careful what you say to your kids."

This segment highlights Jocko's journey towards more mindful and supportive parenting, learning to prioritize his children's well-being over rigid expectations.

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4. Rana's School and Extracurricular Activities: Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, Cheerleading, and More (33:16 - 94:06)

Rana details her involvement in various sports, including jiu jitsu, wrestling, cheerleading, and gymnastics. Each activity brought its own set of challenges and lessons:

• Jiu Jitsu: Initially imposed by Jocko, Rana grows to love the discipline and camaraderie it fosters. Training offers her a refuge from personal struggles and aids in building confidence.

• Wrestling: Despite facing physical and emotional hurdles, including a significant shoulder injury, Rana perseveres, ultimately achieving success by making it to state competitions—a first for her high school.

• Cheerleading and Gymnastics: These endeavors highlight Rana's versatility and the evolving interests that shape her identity beyond martial arts.

Throughout these discussions, the importance of passion-driven participation versus obligation-based involvement becomes evident.

Rana Willink [56:34]: "Cheerleading taught me athleticism... I wasn't very athletic in gymnastics, but cheer was different."

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5. Rana's Mental Health Journey: Struggles and Recovery (94:06 - 130:00)

A pivotal part of the conversation addresses Rana's battle with disordered eating and obsessive calorie tracking, exacerbated by societal pressures and personal insecurities. She candidly shares her path to seeking therapy, the emotional toll it took, and the gradual recovery process that involved redefining her relationship with exercise and food.

Rana Willink [125:16]: "I was literally at state and I was, like, worried about gaining weight."

Jocko provides a poignant reflection on the impact of his actions, emphasizing the significance of recognizing and addressing mental health issues in parenting.

Jocko Willink [133:24]: "If there's things going on in your life that you're not telling anyone, that's a very good red flag."

This segment underscores the critical balance between discipline and emotional support, advocating for open communication and understanding within families.

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6. Jiu Jitsu and Its Benefits: Discipline, Self-Defense, Confidence (130:00 - 171:56)

Jiu jitsu emerges as a recurring theme, symbolizing resilience, self-discipline, and personal growth. Rana explains how returning to jiu jitsu after overcoming her struggles reinvigorated her passion and provided a constructive outlet for her energy and emotions.

Rana Willink [142:30]: "I didn't even touch it. I just let my friends try."

Echo Charles and Rana discuss the transformative power of jiu jitsu, not just as a martial art but as a tool for healing and building meaningful relationships.

Rana Willink [162:10]: "Jiu jitsu helped me so much with building back my relationship with exercise."

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7. "Way of the Warrior Kid" Film: Rana and Echo’s Involvement (171:56 - 197:55)

The episode transitions to Rana and Echo's participation in the filming of "Way of the Warrior Kid." They recount the challenges of teaching jiu jitsu to young actors, the technical aspects of on-set training, and the emotional fulfillment derived from mentoring and witnessing growth in others.

Rana Willink [179:46]: "Coaching the kids was really cool. It was the first time doing jiu jitsu."

This involvement underscores the episode's broader themes of mentorship, resilience, and the positive influence of disciplined training.

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8. Closing Remarks and Promotions (197:55 - End)

As the conversation wraps up, Jocko extends gratitude to participants and acknowledges the broader community's support. He promotes various initiatives, products, and upcoming events, encouraging listeners to engage with the jiu jitsu community and prioritize leadership and discipline in their lives.

Jocko Willink: "If you want to introduce Jiu Jitsu to your kids in a real powerful way, get the books. Way of the Warrior Kid."

Rana and Echo also highlight their roles in promoting healthy lifestyles and personal growth through jiu jitsu and other supportive activities.

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Conclusion

Episode 461 offers a deeply personal exploration of Rana Willink's upbringing, highlighting the intricate balance between discipline and empathy in parenting. Through shared stories of perseverance, struggle, and triumph, the episode underscores the profound impact of leadership and mindful guidance on a child's development. Jiu jitsu serves as a powerful metaphor for resilience and personal growth, weaving together themes of family, mental health, and the enduring bonds that shape our lives.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jocko Willink [00:08]: "This was one of the first and most profound indicators of her level of determination in life."
• Rana Willink [08:09]: "I remember elementary school a lot. Growing up in Ocean Beach and with my two other siblings... If I got a question wrong on the multiplication test, I would cry."
• Jocko Willink [15:09]: "If you can pull your kid out of school, do it... it's just way better."
• Jocko Willink [33:16]: "Be careful what you say to your kids."
• Rana Willink [56:34]: "Cheerleading taught me athleticism... I wasn't very athletic in gymnastics, but cheer was different."
• Jocko Willink [133:24]: "If there's things going on in your life that you're not telling anyone, that's a very good red flag."
• Jocko Willink [142:30]: "I didn't even touch it. I just let my friends try."

This structured approach ensures that listeners, whether familiar with the episode or not, can grasp the insightful narratives and lessons shared by Jocko, Rana, and Echo.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko podcast number 461 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

It was a good test. It was a good way to figure out who really had the will to win. And I'd already put them through some paces in the morning with your standard sprints and jumps and push ups and buddy carries and made him hit the surf and get wet and run a little bit more and all that kind of stuff, you know what I mean? I tested them with some complicated instructions and various physical and mental tasks that required leadership and memory and attention to detail. This kind of stuff, right. And so then as I'm really trying to parse out who wanted victory, I came up with another test. And this wasn't a complicated test. I told them what they had to do was swim across the river. This river's down by the ocean. Swim across the river, go get the biggest possible rock that they could carry, and then swim back. And whoever could put their rock at my feet, whichever rock was the biggest, would win. And I figured it was a good test of more than strength. I wasn't really thinking about that. Or endurance. I wasn't really thinking about that. I was thinking a good ability to adapt because if you're going to carry a rock in one hand, you're going to have to adjust your swimming technique. And whoever could adapt and keep up their speed on the swimming would be able to win. So I gave him the starting command, which is standby, bust them. And off they ran. And they all sprinted into the water, you know, ankle deep and then waist deep and then chest deep. And then, because, you know, the river gets deeper and then it got to the deep part. And so then they all start swimming across. I don't know how far it was, maybe the width of the rivers, 35 yards or something like that. It's probably about 20 yards in the middle. That's two, you know, that's above six feet deep. And so I'm watching and they get across the river and they're waiting out the other side and they come up on the other side and I was watching them and they were all kind of picking up their rocks and heading back towards the water like a tennis ball sized rock or maybe a baseball sized rock or maybe a softball sized rock. And then they're all heading back into the water. But there was one individual who was looking around and picked up a big, a big giant monster rock. Had to lift it like sumo style deadlift, you know what I'm saying? Like strongman competition style. He took two hands and kind of wrapped around and picked it up. And it was, it was certainly too big to be carried with only one hand. And definitely you could not swim with this thing. So I thought to myself, there's a, to be some lessons learned for this individual. Not, maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed. But I watched in, and I see that competitor, right, And I see a look of determination as they walk back toward the river deeper and, you know, ankles and then knees and then waist and then chest. Now I'm thinking I'm getting a little curious. You know, you start paying attention when you see someone that's doing something totally different. And I, I, I'm a, I'm a waterman, right. I know that it is not possible to swim with this rock. It is not, especially because you can't use your hands.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Maybe if you could tie it onto yourself, you could tread water for a moment. But even that, I don't think you could actually do it. So I didn't really think that this competitor was going to be able to pull this off. It seemed like the, like I said, the bad judgment was going to come into play and they'd get to learn a lesson. But they kept walking shoulder deep, the neck deep, and then chin deep and then submerged. And I saw, like, the crown of the head, the scalp, just disappear underwater, being weighed down by the, by the rock. And some time went by, and you could see, like, little bubbles, like a little trail. And as the time passed, I thought, well, they're gonna be running out of breath soon. And right around that time, right as I started to get a little bit concerned, suddenly a face broke the surface of the water momentarily and grabbed a big freaking gasping breath of air and then went back under. And it was, it was real obvious that they had pushed themselves off the river bed and grabbed the breath and then sank back down and kept walking. And then that happened again. Another desperate but determined face breaching the surface and stealing a breath and then disappearing into the depths once again. And, but they were making progress. And after maybe the fourth one, it seemed, okay, they're gonna pull this off. And it was a long slog, but, you know, they drove on. And this individual didn't really seem to care too much about the pain and the discomfort. And they moved closer and closer, and finally their head came out of the water. And by this time, many of the other competitors had made it to me because they were kind of swimming, and they'd place their, I'll say, their humble rocks at my feet, you know, the little apple sized rock, maybe, maybe the biggest, about a grapefruit size, maybe two, three pounds. Sure. And then came the determined human lumbering out of the water with a 60 or 70 pound rock, a colossal stone cradled in her arms like a big mass of depleted uranium. She came over to me, dropped the boulder at my feet and looked at me and smiled because she knew she had won. And we both knew that it wasn't even close. And so I called the attention of the other competitors, probably about, I don't know, maybe 15 girls between the ages of 7 and 10, all from all family, friends of, or friends of my family, that we were all camping at the beach. And I told them that the winner by a long shot was Rana Willink, my daughter. And she smiled and I smiled too. I think she was probably 7 or 8 years old at this time. And this was one of the very, one of the first and most profound indicators of her level of determination in life. And she continued on that path of determination, pushing herself, getting better. And she's always done that with a smile on her face. And it's an honor to have her here with us tonight to share some stories of life, her life, her struggles, her lessons, and hopefully allow me to share some of mine as well. Rana Willink, thanks for joining us.

[Rana Willink]

Hello. Thanks for having me.

[Jocko Willink]

You were a tough little kid in the river. How come you wanted to win so bad?

[Rana Willink]

No clue. I just did.

[Echo Charles]

Do you remember that, Pretty?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I remember it. Yeah, My dad used to make us do all these like evolutions at San Alejo, a place where we camped with a bunch of family friends and made us carry like our little mini blow up boat on our heads and go down to the river. That's fun.

[Jocko Willink]

It is fun. All right, let's go back. Let's go back before that. What is your, what is the first thing that you remember of life?

[Rana Willink]

First thing I remember from life. I don't know, like there I, I remember elementary school a lot. Growing up in Ocean beach and with my two other siblings at the time and going to elementary school being like super, know it all and annoying in like grades one through four. Like if I got a, if I got a question wrong on the multiplication test, I would cry. Like I was such. I just wanted.

[Jocko Willink]

Do you remember your shy phase? Do you remember that?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I do, definitely.

[Jocko Willink]

Because when, when you were really little, you were really extremely shy. And so when anyone would come over to talk to any of our family, you would hide behind mom's legs. You'd hide because you were super shy. I don't know if this had anything to do with it, but at one point, your older sister cut your hair, you know, kind of off.

[Rana Willink]

She cut all my hair off.

[Jocko Willink]

She cut your hair kind of off. And, you know, you had long hair. And then I don't know where your mom and my wife. I don't know where she was. But your sister Freya got out scissors and decided to style your hair. And so you just kind of cut it off?

[Rana Willink]

Well, yeah. And I would do anything she told me to do because it was my older sister. So she said, we're cutting your hair. I was like, all right, guess we're doing it.

[Echo Charles]

You.

[Jocko Willink]

The other thing that's interesting. I remember there was a. We. We had. There was some kind of a party at the SEAL team, and one of my. My platoon chief at the time, who's a great friend of mine, who I'd known since I was at Team 1 back in the day, and he. He was married, and he had one kid, and his. And he showed up at this party, and his daughter was, like, the cutest little thing, and her hair was braided, and there was ribbons in her hair. I think they were, like, white and pink ribbons in her hair. And they matched her skirt, and her skirt matched her shoes, and she just was cute as a button. And then we pull up, and it's our family. Our children look like feral animals. Like, no, first of all, my son didn't wear shoes. He rarely ever wore a shirt, and he just wore swim trunks. And these are, like, Navy exchange swim trunks or. Or target swim trunks. You know, just. That was what he would wear. My. My oldest daughter would wear a ballerina. What is it called? A tutu. Yeah, she'd wear a pink tutu. Like, this is just what she was wearing. And then you would wear a leotard all the time. And the thing is, everyone's like. All these pieces of clothing were grimy, like, dirty.

[Rana Willink]

So nasty.

[Jocko Willink]

So nasty. And it wasn't even. My wife would wash them, but they were just stained, and it was like. I think. I think the attitude for my wife was instead of being like, no, you have to, like, put this on. No, you need to. No, you look. She was just, okay, if that's what you want to wear, cool. Whatever. I got three freaking kids below the ages of six. Like, I'm over it.

[Rana Willink]

You know, whatever you want.

[Jocko Willink]

Wear whatever you want. And so, yeah, you. You kids definitely grew. And it was pretty wild scene. But that was the first Time. I was like, oh, if you saw my family from. If you didn't know anything, you'd be like, damn, these people fell on some hard times. You know what I'm saying? So. So that's kind of the early. The early kids. Now you mentioned camping up at Santa Lajo. That's something that we did every summer for between a week and two weeks, which is awesome.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And a lot of times, I don't know if you remember this. I would have to work.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I would just go to work because it's, it's an extra, whatever, half an hour to get to work. But the funny thing is, Echo Charles, is this campsite. Like, if you think you're, quote, going on vacation, you might think you go somewhere that's far away. No, dude, this is 20 minutes from our house. But everyone would go and it would just be chaos and awesomeness for a week to two weeks. Sun. Everyone would just get annihilation. Sunburns, chafing, chafing everywhere from just all day in the water, you know, feet would be annihilated and. But it was cool. It was awesome. Did you enjoy Santa Lajo?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I feel like when we were coming up with things to talk about, that's like the most. That's like the place where I have the most memories, like as a whole family, because everything was just like, everything was so chaotic at our house that it was a place where we all went and we all just had to be there. There was no, like, ballet lessons to go to, no gymnastics, none of that, so. And I don't really remember you leaving to work. I think we were probably just down at the beach the entire time you were working. But yeah, I don't. I feel like all of my good memories with like my childhood friends and the fam was all there.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we did tent camping and then we graduated to a pop up trailer. You know what that is, Echo? It's like the one that looks flat and then you unlatch it all and it kind of pops out.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then eventually, God bless, we got the, the Lazy Days, which was a real rv, a class C rv. And it was funny because, I don't know, I think I paid like, like, I don't know, 8, 300 for it. You know what I'm saying? But it was fire.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It was so cool.

[Echo Charles]

So wait, the tent. So when you're talking tents right there, the, you know, the initial offering, what were they like the big tent, you know, like the size of this room kind of or like each individual tent. Individuals.

[Jocko Willink]

Maybe you have like a family tent that holds four or something.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, but four. Like everybody next to each other.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Wife and I would sleep in one big one and then the kids would. And my son would actually just sleep in. Like on the dirt.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Or. Yeah. Or on a chair. Like, we'd find him and his buddy and just.

[Rana Willink]

Oh, yeah. Knocked out.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Just on the camp. Around the campfire.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I guess.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it was. But this is something, a piece of advice that I've give people now is if you can pull your kid out of school, do it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, if you. If you have an opportunity, you got some, you know, at work, you're going to such and such a place, or you get something, some opportunity to pull your kid out of school and take him to do something, do it like 100. Do it and do it as much as you can. I did. I mostly did that with my son just because, I don't know, I guess because he's a boy and he surfed and he was more interested in other things. But I wish I would have done it more with you guys too, because that's just way better. It's just way. You used to. Will have more memories than you will get from your desk at school. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

It feels like also, I mean, obviously it depends on what you guys going to do. You don't pull them out of school to go watch TV or something like that, but. Yeah, right. I see what you're saying. But it gives them like reps in the real world too, you know, a little experience. But it's like it's not just, oh, it's a fun experience. It's like you get playing time in the real world rather than in the class, the classroom. You see what I'm saying? So it feels like, yeah, that would be very beneficial.

[Jocko Willink]

Get that plague time.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, man. It's true.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, so you meant, you know, I started off talking about these, like, competitions and stuff, and there was a lot of. There's a lot of fun competitions to be had. Like how. How long. Who can hold their head in the ice chest? Like, you know, a cooler filled with ice.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Who can hold their head in there the longest?

[Echo Charles]

Wait, Hannah did. So these competitions or, you know, all these different evolutions or. Did he participate or.

[Rana Willink]

No, he just.

[Echo Charles]

He was a coach. He was a ref or whatever.

[Rana Willink]

The commander, he just came up with the ideas.

[Echo Charles]

You guys do it.

[Rana Willink]

I feel like every. Like, I don't remember much not being like a competition. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So no like fun, like leisure activities. It was just more like. All right, let's see who comes out on top today.

[Rana Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

All right, good tip.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, who can hang on this pull up bar the longest?

[Rana Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

All even things, like. And you've seen me do this echo, Charles. Even things like talent shows. Yeah, because, you know, they would put on like a talent show or something.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I would just judge.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I know.

[Rana Willink]

Like, fully judged.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Like, not even like fun. Everyone wins. Not. Not an everyone wins sort of situation.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

It was the winner got. Got like an ice cream from the camp store or whatever. Or just got like, love from your father.

[Jocko Willink]

Do you remember when your kids were having a jumping in water diving contest?

[Echo Charles]

I remember it very much. I got to witness this, you know, scenario at my house. Yeah. There. I mean, like a. I don't know, was it dive, dining ball? It was like anything into the. Into the water.

[Jocko Willink]

Some kind of jump off the platform thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And I saw your. Your method right away. I was like, oh, I see what he's doing. Okay. Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, and it's the cool thing is they get into it.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah. It works. It takes hold for.

[Jocko Willink]

And even there, there's no prize of any kind in that case.

[Echo Charles]

Actually, Rana's right. You're probably more right than you than you realize love from your father. So if it's like, if Jocko's over here blowing up the set with his presence, you know, his voice is all loud. All the kids are like, who's that guy? And then he's giving tips and saying, that's really good. His. I'll let you explain the method. But, you know, when he's like, implementing his method, bruh, that's really what you're striving for. Like, I just want approval from this guy, you know, which actually I did learn something from from that.

[Jocko Willink]

What was the takeaway?

[Echo Charles]

Well, tell your method first, then I'll say the takeaway.

[Jocko Willink]

Basically, the method is to give them really, like, distinct feedback. So, like, when your kids. And it was a whole bunch of kids. I don't know, it's probably 10 kids. But let's say Freddy gets up and Freddy, like, walks to the end of the diving board and he jumps off. And these kids are like six. I mean, he's just jumping off like a wild man. But I'd say, all right, Freddy, hey, listen, overall, not bad technique. A little bit marginal because your hands were flapping all over the place. But most important, your attitude as you walked up. You didn't look like you Were having a good time. No one wants to see you not having a good time. So because of that, I'm docking you down to a 2.9. Try again. And the next time Freddie would go, his hands would be controlled at his side. He had a big smile on his face, and he would get. I'd be all right, There we go. 4.2 improvement.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So there's the method. What did you do?

[Echo Charles]

You remember this method? Like, does that ring a bell? It's like, oh, that makes sense. Because he did that.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. It wasn't just like, oh, good job. Because then you're like, oh, they're not really watching and they don't really care. But when it's. Well, it feels like maybe just a good job would be like, okay, we're just doing a dumb diving contest. But then it's like, when the judge is serious, you're like, oh, shit, I gotta get serious now. You know? But, like, we can't even play card games in our family. That's like. We've tried to play multiple, like, card games, spoons, all this, bro. It just gets so chaotic. And we even. My dad came up with this thing during the game where his knowledge is like, you're out. It's like you're getting ejected.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Rana Willink]

You're getting ejected from the game.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, you're out from the game. Echo. I would go, echo Charles. And everyone could put their hand up and then. And then retract their hand back and go, echo Charles ejected.

[Rana Willink]

And, like, that feeling was horrible.

[Echo Charles]

So not that. Not that you were kicking him out. It was like, a legitimate part of the game. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So, you know, game like musical chairs.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So if you didn't get it, you didn't get your chair. It wouldn't just be like, go to the side.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It would be like, echo Charles. And everyone would go, eject.

[Echo Charles]

So it's like this hostile spectacle.

[Jocko Willink]

And there's games like spoons is like, that. We have a lot of games that narrow the symbol game that narrow the playing field and narrow the playing field. And narrow the playing field. A lot of games like that.

[Rana Willink]

But we did it to my younger sister. We, like, ejected her. And she was, like, bawling her eyes out. I don't think we played since. Honestly.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, your younger.

[Rana Willink]

My mom got so mad at us.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

But it's all.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, there's a. The other end of the spectrum is Helen is so nice that she wouldn't, you know, she couldn't even bring herself to say eject.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Even Though she was playing the game. And you're authorized to eject someone and verbally communicate that with the group and ostracize that person. You know, we'd all do it. And she'd be like, it's okay, sweetie. Like, as we're ejecting. Echo, Charles, she's like, it's okay, Echo. You could. You did great.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

No one believed her. Like, not even the person that got ejected.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that makes sense. But. But doesn't surprise me. That kind of stuff. And there's a lot of. I think there's, like, a lot of value in these things. Like, does Jocko go too hard sometimes? Maybe. But, like, especially that. The judging, the diving contest. So the takeaway was, you're right, Rana. Where if you're just like, hey, good job to everyone, usually they're kids, right? You want to. You don't want to freaking insult them, especially in front of everyone, or nothing like that, right? But there's this. There's.

[Rana Willink]

If you.

[Echo Charles]

If you kind of can construct this method, which T apparently did, it's even more effective than a good job, you know, so it's like a. You're engaged, so you engage. Like, I notice every detail of your jump. So they feel special, like, oh, he cares. You know, kind of a thing. That's a boom. They're signed on already once when you're like, hey, I like how you did this. But then you. Then you give them praise, but not too much praise. You don't get the 100% praise. You give them, like, the 85% praise, and then you address the remaining 15%. Now they got motivation and admission seem. And he's engaged, and Jacques can be there the whole time with me, you know, like, evaluating. Whatever, bro. You see this kid's freaking face light up. Can't wait to get back on that freaking wall.

[Jocko Willink]

And you know what else is an important lesson about that is if your kid jumps off the thing and you go, hey, that was great.

[Rana Willink]

The message wasn't great.

[Jocko Willink]

The message is whether it's great or not, the message is you've achieved it, right? If you say, hey, that was good. But here are some things you. The message is, I believe in you, and you can do better. Yeah, you can do better. And who doesn't want to do better, right? And, you know, occasionally you'd get someone that, you know was really struggling with some particular thing. And it's not like I'd be like, oh, right. You know, I would tactically kind of support that individual. I wouldn't go Too hard in the paint. If there was a kid that was maybe a little bit uncoordinated on some particular evolution, you know, I might not pick them for the team, but. I'm just kidding, bro.

[Echo Charles]

No, the thing is, even when you're explaining it, like, I'm thinking a. I'm, like, kind of mentally taking notes, like, okay, how am I going to implement this? But I gotta bring my version. I can't bring your version. I bring my version. See what I'm saying? And I'm remembering that ever since then, that's what I would do. Because that's a common game right there. Who can do the best cannonball, who can do the best dive or whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

That's. Yeah. But it's also the gal who can do the best anything.

[Echo Charles]

Anything. Yeah. Yeah. So I employ every single time. If I got the opportunity, boom. That. That. That concept is in there. Oh, yeah. 100. But I do add my, like, certain flair. Like, if someone does it. Like, if they do one that's, like, not up to par, I'd be like, hey, that's the worst one ever seen in my life. But it adds. They know I'm joking, you know, whatever. But it's like, it adds a little bit of fun. They're all troubled, but. Yes, but. Yeah, every single time.

[Jocko Willink]

I used to, like, roast the kids, too. Not just the kids. I'd roast everybody that makes around the campfire completely with a guitar. So I would, like, sing songs. Makes sense to me about each individual kid. And, like, and they were all. They were kind of. Kind of a lot of times based around scatological humor. Do you know what that is? Do you know what that is?

[Rana Willink]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like the nice way of saying really immature jokes about, like, poo. So I. You know, it'd be like, this kid farted, you know, and it was just, you know, the little kids, they think that's the craziest thing they've ever heard in their lives.

[Echo Charles]

Like, amazing.

[Jocko Willink]

But that was. That was good. But, you know, the thing is, you know, I mentioned that, like, my wife sort of, like, let the kids kind of wear what they wanted to wear. We weren't real super strict on all these little items. You know, I think a lot of times when I talk to people about their kids, I always. I think they're always surprised that I was very laissez faire, you know, like war for. In the parlance of our times, I was more chill, you know, and we even tried it when you guys were little. Like, one Christmas, we asked the kids, we, you know, go to bed, cuz Santa's going to come. And if you're awake when Santa shows up, dude, he's leaving. And they were. They then they somehow convinced us that whenever they woke up, we're going like, we want to open presents right then. So they woke up at 1:00 in the morning. And so we all got up at 1 o'clock in the morning and opened all the presents and then it was just kind of ruined everything. We did implement a rule there which is like not don't get out of your room until 7:00 in the morning.

[Rana Willink]

And we do order for opening presents. It's not everyone opens at once. Oh, like it's old or it's youngest to oldest. Youngest to oldest one person and then you re.

[Echo Charles]

Oh yeah. Rounds.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

What do you do? Free for all.

[Echo Charles]

It's not. Yeah, free for. I mean, I remembered. Yeah, one at a time. It's not strict though, but it's. Yeah, one at a time. You know, we want to see what is it, you know, whatever for the thing. But no, it's not in order for.

[Rana Willink]

The Free for all. For us it was done in two minutes. It's like 1:02am and we're like, oh, all right.

[Jocko Willink]

That was a bummer. The funny thing about that is, like, we didn't have much money, you know, at all. And so a lot of when I would buy something, I would save the box. So for instance, when I would get a computer, I'd save the box for. For three years, four years. And then just when Christmas time would roll around, package that bad boy back up, you know, zero eyes the computer. Here you go.

[Echo Charles]

Wait another. Compute that same computer or put something else in the box.

[Jocko Willink]

Same computer.

[Rana Willink]

The one that hit. The one that.

[Jocko Willink]

I got a new computer every three or four years.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, you get the old one.

[Rana Willink]

I got it. I got his old computer. Multiple times.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, actually that's not bad.

[Rana Willink]

Not bad at all.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. As far as.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, yeah. I would try and I honestly didn't even know. I thought it was new. I was stoked. I was like, dang. All right, I got a new computer. We're doing good.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we're stoked on that one. You. The other thing that's that I remember about you being a kid is you were freaking strong as a child.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like not normal. You are not normally strong.

[Rana Willink]

That's what he always says there. Like, I have multiple memories on different occasions of my dad making his friends pick me up and Just realizing how dense I am, so to speak. And there were like a couple words he'd use, but dense, heavy, these aren't the best words.

[Jocko Willink]

So, I mean, this is. This is a lesson. So I said I was going to go over some lessons learned from me. This is a good lesson for me because in my mind, I was literally as stoked as I could possibly be. Because you know how different people have different strengths. Right? So you. You know when you train with someone in jiu jitsu. I don't. With girls. It's. With. Training with girls is a lot different. You don't. You don't run. You don't have as much of a regular occurrence of this type of human. But people that are just. They're built. They're built different. And you're like, okay, this dude's freaking. So heavy, so strong, super dense. And usually it's a type of person that has explosive musk muscle tissue. So, like, what's that? Is that type 2 tissue?

[Rana Willink]

We'll say like, twitch or something.

[Jocko Willink]

Fast twitch. The fast twitch muscle. Right. Those people are usually. They feel denser, stronger, and they're heavier for their size. And so you. Again, it's. It's a lot more rare, in my opinion, that a girl has that. And it was so obvious when you were little because you were heavy.

[Rana Willink]

I know. And you told me.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I know. And the thing is, in my mind, that was like a huge compliment.

[Rana Willink]

And my sister.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, and your sister is normal?

[Rana Willink]

Well, she was like, smaller. Like, she was a ballerina, my older sister. And he would say, she's like a bird. She's like a bird. He would have his two friends pick. Pick us up or whatever. Like, oh, my God, isn't she like a bird? And isn't Rena so dense? So heavy? I was like, yeah. And I.

[Jocko Willink]

That's how. That's how stupid I am.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Is. I didn't even realize that that was a thing. You know what I mean? And the thing that I'm talking about is, is girls are constantly being looked at and judged on what they look like, whereas guys don't. There's really not that much of a difference. And the biggest component of the way girls are looked at is, like, their weight. So when your dad is like, dude, check how heavy she is. And then your friend lifts her up and goes, dude, she is heavy.

[Rana Willink]

They'd be like, dude.

[Jocko Willink]

And they'd crazy. And they'd high five me. Of course they're high fiving me. And meanwhile, she's. She's like, wait a second. Yeah, so it's just a. It's just a little heads up.

[Rana Willink]

I remember you. I remember one specific instance in the garage or like, outside in our old house in Ocean beach, in the back, on the pavement. I remember Seth was over, and you made him do that. And I was, like, a little bit embarrassed because I had, like, a crush on.

[Jocko Willink]

You always had a crush on Seth.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I was like, oh, we're gonna get married when we're older. Blah, blah. Okay, whatever. I was like 8, 7. And so I was like, oh, like a little bit embarrassed, you know, But I didn't really think, like, I was, like, embarrassed. But then I was like, okay, whatever.

[Echo Charles]

So let me ask you this about that experience. The so. Because obviously he's not. It's not like an intentional abuse or not, you know, nothing like this. It's like. In fact, it's the opposite.

[Rana Willink]

Talk about it now. Because I. Because I'll be like, bro, you literally called me dense. You called me like a bowling ball. All this stuff that's like. And he said, dude, that's the biggest compliment I could ever give you. Like, that's what he says. No, and I understand that now. As I've embraced that, I'm, like, stronger. But, like, when I was a kid, I was like, oh, shit, dude. I gotta, like, change. I gotta do something about this, because this is not good.

[Echo Charles]

Do you think that it. Because, okay, so there's a different. So him saying that stuff, for sure it's gonna land. What he's saying is landing. But his tone isn't like. It's not a negative tone, it's a positive. So did you sen any of that going on, like. Or was it just. Hey, you're saying I'm dense. That's bad.

[Rana Willink]

No, I feel like looking back on that, I remember him being stoked. It's just how I, like, twisted the words in my head.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And also the way, for lack of a better word, like, society. Right, right.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Is you look at the Barbies and you look at skinny, skinny, skinny, skinny. And here's your dad.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Being like, dude, you're so heavy.

[Echo Charles]

Right?

[Jocko Willink]

Like, just like that. I'm totally stoked. Yeah, but I didn't. I'm an idiot. You know, I just didn't make the connection.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. But I feel like the outcome and the whole deal. It would be a completely different situation if you said it in a negative, you know, in some bizarre world or something. If you're saying it with a negative tone, that's like, A whole different thing. Even though you're not taking it as good, you'd still think about, of course. But it would be like. I feel like the outcome would be, like, way different and way worse.

[Jocko Willink]

And I guess the lesson here is, like, even with the best intentions.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. 100. Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

It was not good. And. Yeah. And imagine if you had negative intentions. Right. You know, you gotta. You gotta remember this is sort of like a leadership lesson, too. You know, I've. I talk about this sometimes. When you're in a leadership position, you gotta remember that your words carry more weight. Right. A lot more weight. So if. If you work for me, Echo. And I go, even if I'm just joking around, you know, I go, I guess you didn't really want to put your best effort to this video that you had made, you know, even though I'm joking. It has weight, by the way. It also has weight. When you say something complimentary, it's more. So a lot of times you don't recognize that, oh, I'm the boss here. I need to give some compliments, because in my mind, I'm like, echo doesn't really care if I say, like, hey, dude, that was a really good job. Yeah, but in your mind, again, it's just because I'm thinking, oh, what? Who am I? I'm just a dude. But in your mind, you're like, oh, the jock was the boss. He's the CEO or he's the lieutenant or whatever. In my mind, I'm like, I'm just another dude. So you got to keep that in mind. Your weight. The word. The weight of your words as a leader is a lot more than you think they are. And the weight of your words as a parent is probably even heavier than that. And so even when you're saying something with the best intention, if you're not heavier.

[Rana Willink]

No pun intended.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, they are certainly heavier and denser.

[Rana Willink]

They are heavier.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. Yes. They land with more weight.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, Just more dense. Like a bowling ball.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So there you go. Be careful. What? Be very careful what you say to your kids. And I'll tell you another thing that's important to remember is your kids, like, they're gonna go through little phases. Some of the phases that they go through are four days long. Some of the phases that they go through are four weeks long. Some of them are four months long. But just about nothing that they're doing is gonna have some big permanent. Like, that's the way my child is now. Like, for a little while, they're going to be into Or, I don't know, they're going to listen to music that you don't like and you're going to call, why are you listening to this crap? Or they're going to be into some sport that you don't like. Or they're going to. Whatever, you just name it and we'll get to one of those. Because, you know, Ran, I got really. You got really into cheerleading for a little while, and I didn't like cheerleading. I like, I appreciate it more now, but at the time, there was things I looked at, I was like, oh, I don't really like this, but. And we'll get there. But my point is, if you feel like you need to impose corrective measures on your kids because they've taken one step off of the path, don't, don't. It's not worth it. Let them bump into the guardrails and be like, oh, that path didn't seem really smart. I'm going to go back towards the right path. Because we try and we worry. Another. Another story I tell is about Ethan, one of my son's friends, and when I took him to Jiu Jitsu when he was five years old, hated it, didn't come back. Six year old, took him again, hated it. Seven years old, hated it. Eight years old, hated it. Nine years old. He's totally, totally fine, totally into it. And my point in saying that is he got really good really quick, and it wasn't like his life was ruined because he didn't train. And it wasn't even like, if he wanted to become a world champion, he would have become a world champion. Even though he was starting five years later than, you know, even though he started training earnestly at 9, doesn't really matter. So we think that our kid, you know, we need to make him into the world champion. Like, bro, chill. You know, who's going to make your kid. You know who's going to make the kid into a world champion? The kid. The kid is. So give them some space, give them some room. Speaking of Jiu Jitsu and imposing Jiu Jitsu, and this is something I've talked about a lot on the podcast and which is I imposed Jiu Jitsu on all my kids in a big way. And when I say in a big way, I mean seven days a week.

[Rana Willink]

Not like what you're doing. Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Thank you.

[Rana Willink]

Once a week. I love it. I love seeing them.

[Jocko Willink]

Is it once a week right now? Is it twice a week?

[Echo Charles]

Oh, for the kids, yeah. Yeah, One time. Sometimes twice.

[Jocko Willink]

But once or Twice. Yeah, Minimum. Minimum.

[Echo Charles]

The mandatory. That's the routine.

[Jocko Willink]

And what's the reason?

[Echo Charles]

What we always talk about where Jiu Jitsu is like, you are. They are not allowed to not know Jiu Jitsu growing up just for all the reasons that we explain and all the stuff or whatever. And they've accepted that. So. Yeah. Boom.

[Jocko Willink]

So just like you can't just like you have to use the toilet and not, like, use the floor.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, exactly. Good.

[Jocko Willink]

Just like you have to brush your teeth in the morning. You just got to do, hey, one day a week. That's just the way it is. This is the thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, Fully.

[Jocko Willink]

I think that's a really good policy. I think twice a week's a better policy.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Rana Willink]

I think once. Once is good, I think for like, young kids. Because even the. Even the thought of changing it from once to twice, like, I just had a kid in my kids class cry, and his mom told me it's because we changed it from once a week to twice a week. I think once feels a little bit like, oh, that's fine. Once a week. But it's like, bro, the day. The second day comes by so quick, they're like, oh, again, you know?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Especially. And you know kids, and you're actually. You have the most experience, probably because you teach kids class.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Or you teach my kids class. The. You see the difference. Like, if a kid has, like, not that fun of a time and then he, oh, I gotta go again. Day after tomorrow, it's gonna be like more of a thing, you know, so they can have like a good. Like my son, for example. You make him go by himself. He's gonna be like, can we go late? Can we go home early? Whatever. But if he's with Jack or who or whoever, like some new friend. Avery. Yeah, he'll come. You'll be like, fired up, ready to go running around and he don't want to leave. See him saying. So it can be night and day, like for a kid. So. Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. That they, like, he was like, choking him out. Having so much fun, learning, doing the technique.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

With Jack.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Having a friend really makes a huge difference. And by the way, that's not. Not just for kids. Like today for open mat, I just texted, like, the group. I was like, hey, who's. And I was kind of like, you know, you know, this and that. I got busy and I was like, hey, is anyone who's training? And like, few people. Roger, Greg, Train, Dr. Luke, Dr. L. Like, hey, I'm in. And as soon As I saw them, I was like, yeah, totally pumped.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, ready to roll.

[Jocko Willink]

You didn't respond, by the way.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, well, Road work.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. You do road work.

[Rana Willink]

But that's how my older sister and I got back into Jiu Jitsu. We would just go to victory to Nogi, literally once a week and just go in the corner and do the moves and tell each other, oh, yeah, this doesn't work. Like, we would literally be. I think I could get out of this. I can just limb arm out of this. And. But we would go. We would have fun. And, like, having a partner, when you show up, you don't have to do that. Like, look around. No one's making eye contact with you. It's worse, especially if you're a girl, too. Not even to play the girl card. But, like, it is. It is, like, worse. And just having that set partner that you're like, okay, if I. If no one else wants to roll with me, I have that one person. We can just roll five rounds if we want. Yeah, yeah. You know.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, you. You mentioned getting back into the Jiu Jitsu, but for a while, you got out of Jiu Jitsu. And again, I believe this is because of me, because I was so, like, just passionate about Jiu Jitsu. And, you know, you guys were training every day. You were on Saturdays and Sundays. It was like five hours. It was like five hours in the gym. Actually, one of you was saying the other day that because we. You'd go in, you do the striking class, you do the grappling class, and then I would go do class, and then I would do open mat. So there's five hours, and this is on a Saturday. Every Saturday and Sunday. But I think it was either you or maybe your brother was saying, you would be sitting downstairs waiting for me, you'd hear my flip flops coming down the stairs, and you'd get, like, excited.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. Wait, what?

[Echo Charles]

Like what? It's time to go. Time to go?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, it's time to go. And when it wasn't his flip flops, bruh. Sit back down. We gotta. Gotta push through, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

And the other thing I did that was not smart is I would make you guys compete. And not. That's not bad enough. Make you compete and then put you up a weight class, put you up a belt level, put you up in age group. And so you're going with kids that are more experienced, heavier, and older than you.

[Rana Willink]

And was that intentional?

[Jocko Willink]

Yes, in my mind, I was like, oh, I want to make.

[Rana Willink]

In my mind, it was like they. It because the tournaments were so small, it was like, all the girls are going to go together no matter what belt. Like, yep. Level.

[Jocko Willink]

Sometimes it would be that, but then they'd be like, well, you know, because I would know the people running the tournaments, they'd be like, hey, jocko, do you want your daughter to go in this group? Which is like lower or her age? And we only had. We got three girls in there. We got two girls or three girls in the older group. And I got. Put her in the older group. And I, not kidding, I 100% in my mind thought I was doing you kids the biggest favor in the world. And just like, oh, man, imagine how good they're getting right now. And here's the reality of the situation is you go, you enter the tournament, you go with someone that's bigger, stronger, heavier, and older than you. You get smashed, it's not fun. You get defeated, you get humiliated. Because all fighting, combat sports and all single opponent sports, which is you and another person, there's no team. Like, no, you are. It's all you. And so it's humiliating. And there's an added component that in jiu jitsu, you have to admit that this person is a superior predator than you are. Even if it's on a primal, like, subconscious level in your mind, even as a little kid, you go, oh, I can't stop this person from physically doing whatever they want to me. And actually, I think it was Huberman, who either he had a guest on or we were talking about this. But the way you should actually set things up when you do it intentionally is you should try and get not just kids, but everyone. 80% of the time they're winning.

[Echo Charles]

I think that was Jordan Peterson.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, was it Jordan? Okay, so 80% of the time you're winning, 20% of the time you're losing. That's like, you feel good, you feel good. But I got beat. But I know I can win. So I put you guys in scenarios where oftentimes it was. It was 90% losing. And it just.

[Rana Willink]

I don't even really remember when I.

[Jocko Willink]

Like one, you honest, you won some.

[Rana Willink]

Oh, I won against my friend.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah. You had to go against one of your friends and you beat her and then you were crying.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because you were sweet. Yeah. So. So what? What all the. The outcome of all this bad behavior by me was you and your sister and your brother were just like, we don't want to go, we don't want to go. We don't want to go. I remember we.

[Rana Willink]

Because we're just going to get our ass.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh yeah. Because I would also do this in practice. So like at the gym it's like. Oh yeah. Because at the gym, you know, you've got the classes from whatever, 8 to 13. You got 13 year old boys in there. And I'd be like, rana, here you go. Well, this kid is, you know, got a mustache, you know what I mean? RAN is 8. So it just wasn't fun. I didn't make it fun. And this is the biggest thing I tell people now with your kids. And it's just not with jiu Jitsu, man. It's with everything. Make it fun if you have a. Happen to have a kid. Because I, we. I've had kids. There's been kids like this at Victory over the years. You might have a kid that's a natural competitor and fun for them is going really hard and competing and sometimes getting beat. There's kids like that. It's one out of every hundred. It's one out of every hundred. Most kids, first of all, they don't really care about the thing that you care about. Like they're like, dude, what are you. What is this weird stuff where we roll around on the ground and try and choke each other? I don't even, you know, I don't want to do that. I want to draw or I want to play baseball, just some other thing. And sometimes you're the one that's in the baseball. Dude, you don't understand, dude. You know how awesome it is for a person to be able to hit this tiny ball that's flying at 90 miles an hour. Do you know what kind of human skill that is? Kids like, I don't freaking care. It means nothing to me. That again, I'll bring this, this clip up again. And I don't even know what the movie is, but it's Matt Damon.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, and because they make a bunch of memes with it now where they're showing the kid, he's got like squat rack in his room or he's got mats in his room or he's got a bow and arrow in his room. And Matt Damon, the dad's. He's yelling at his kid and this, you know, you can't make me live after your. You can't make me follow your dreams. And he's like, yes, I can. He's like, dad, why are you yelling? He says, because it's a good dream. So eventually the pressure and I, I realized eventually I was like, yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm clearly doing something wrong.

[Echo Charles]

What was it that made you realize? Do you remember?

[Jocko Willink]

Just they were freaking miserable. And every time going to the gym was a gut check of, like, tears.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Probably throwing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Being in the car, like, throwing stuff.

[Rana Willink]

We, like, threw, like, water bottles.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, one time. Yeah, one time they threw water bottles.

[Rana Willink]

Just, like, from the back of the minivan. All three of us, like, crying, straight.

[Echo Charles]

At rebellion, trying to get our mom.

[Rana Willink]

To, like, tell dad, like, they don't want to do this. And Dad's like, all right, well, I don't care.

[Jocko Willink]

We're going for a while. I said, I don't care, and just be quiet. Keep going.

[Echo Charles]

So you did that. It's a good dream.

[Jocko Willink]

That's basically just did. I 100% did it. I'm. This is like, I wish I would have been able to hear this. And I didn't. And so finally, I was like, yep, you are being an idiot. And the big. The big disconnect that I had. And this is. Again, this is something I teach at Echelon Font all the time, is I would never impose things on my platoon. I wouldn't be like, shut up, guys. This is what you're doing. I would never do that. I would talk to them and listen to their side of the story and explain to them why something's important. And there was no. You know, it's pretty easy in the SEAL teams. You're like, well, do you want to be prepared for war? And if you get to there in a conversation, the guys go, yeah, we want to be prepared. We'll go do the training. Or we'll get this piece of gear or we'll, like, guys will. We're all unified with one goal, so. And you could figure that out with Jiu Jitsu, too. Like, hey, and you're doing this with your kids right now. Echo, Charles. Like, hey, I just want you to be. You want to be prepared for life, right? Like, you want to be able to handle yourself if something goes wrong. And kids will kind of go, yeah.

[Rana Willink]

But even a kid can't really fathom, like, such long term.

[Jocko Willink]

Right?

[Rana Willink]

Like, like, if you were probably like, well, one day, you're gonna. You're gonna need to find. Okay, bro.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

No, that's not true.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. And that's why even in that situation, it's like, going back to what I said about Ethan, like, okay, well, you know, you don't need to train right now then. And that's perfectly fine. Yeah, like, it's perfectly fine. It's way better than creating an antagonistic relationship with your platoon. Or even worse, creating an antagonistic relationship with your kids where they don't want to do it. And so after I realized that, and I wasn't happy about it, but I was like, well, yeah, I guess this is what we're doing now. I will say that I let the girls kind of stop, but my son, I was like, yeah. And then that. I think a lot of that came from the fact that in my mind, as A Boy, you 100% are going to be fighting. Like, as a girl, you can avoid it. You can be quick witted in a lot of cases. But in my mind, especially from my old job, like, you have to just fight. You have to fight other guys. It's just happening. And I just kept him going. And I will say this as well, once I isolated him from you two, from his two sisters, he was kind of more on board. And then the other thing is, he started like, I think one of his buddies got, I think Ethan got into it at the time. And so.

[Rana Willink]

Jonah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, Jonah. And so now that now he had a couple buddies. But that mob mentality is. Is gnarly. A classic example of that mob mentality is when so we have our first three kids are born and then there's a seven year gap. So it's been seven years and we're in our little house, 934 square feet in Ocean Beach, California, and my wife gets pregnant again. And so it's Halloween night. So this must have been, I don't know what year it was, but it's Halloween night. And we, we're, we're like super stoked.

[Rana Willink]

2009. 2009, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we're super stoked. And so we bring the kids together and we're like, guys, we got some great news. And they're, they're thinking, like, what? We get candy? What are we doing? We go into trick or treat. We go into the, we go into the Niners house. What's happened? We going up to the curb, first house. What are we doing? And we're like, mom's pregnant and you guys are gonna have a little baby brother or sister. And it leading from the front. My oldest daughter was like, got the most horrified look on her face, stormed away. Rana, you started just crying. And then four followed suit. And it was like, bro, what just happened?

[Rana Willink]

We were like, how could you guys do that to us?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, it was wild. I think Freya, your older sister, I think she was very sensitive about money.

[Rana Willink]

She was. And is.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. To this day, like, she thought a child costs money and we don't have any money, and now you can have another child. You guys are idiots and you're irresponsible.

[Rana Willink]

She literally would think that's the way she. Whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

10 be like, you guys are irresponsible.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So why were you crying or like.

[Rana Willink]

Well, I was just upset because Freya.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

I like.

[Jocko Willink]

No, if you see, like, if the person that you look up to is, like, freaking out, you're like, oh, God, this is bad.

[Echo Charles]

That is 100 real.

[Rana Willink]

I looked up to Freya so much that my sister so much she would like. So basically, when we were younger, we would get these coconut ice pops from this place, and we were each allowed to have one. And my sister would finish hers first, knowing that she could ask me for a bite of mine and I would say yes because I had to, because I thought she was, like, awesome. I still do think she's awesome, but she. Can I have a bite? If not, I was getting. Gonna get the silent treatment. So, like, I guess I'm giving up my bite.

[Jocko Willink]

Especially those. I. Those coconut ice pops. The pulp was that.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, the best bites. They're like coconut shreds, bro. I would try to finish mine so fast.

[Jocko Willink]

So you got, you know, so you start. You stopped training jiu jitsu, and that's when you kind of got more really into gymnastics for a while.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you were into gymnastics. Did you like it? You liked it?

[Rana Willink]

I really liked it a lot. Yeah. I went to it a lot, but I was really not good. I went to it a lot and, like, it was just some gymnastics place in Point Loma, and a bunch of my friends were in it, and it was really fun. I just. It wasn't. It wasn't for me, like, being. I wanted it so bad to be for me, but it wasn't. And so I. One of my friends started doing cheer, competitive cheerleading. And it's sort of similar to gymnastics, like, tumbling and stuff. And actually, in gymnastics, I liked the tumbling part. I wasn't really good on the bars and the beam. Like, I would just fall off and stuff. Like, once I got a new skill, and it was like, the silliest skill ever. My dad was, like, filming, and everyone's like, you got this. And it's just like, me going around the bar. Like, it was just like, so. But. But then my friend started doing gymnastics, and she said, you're going to, like, you would really. Or my friend started doing Cheerleading. And she said, you're really going to like this. And the Drews family friend of ours and I like, moved from gymnastics to Cheers and, like, immediately was, like, in love with it. It was so much fun and so hard. Like, I tell everyone that I. That I like. People in jiu jitsu will say, what sport did you do? I said I did wrestling, but I also did cheerleading, which is random. I know. It's an interesting combination. And they were like, cheerleading, like, what? And I was like, yeah, dude, that was hard. Like, we is. It was like a routine. So you're not cheering for anyone. You're, like going against different teams and you. It's like 2 minutes and 30 seconds of all out. Like. Like pushing yourself, flips, tumbling, lifting people, like, all while looking, like, at the cameras, like, having to look crazy. And it was so much fun. I had so much fun.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. A lot of times people don't realize how hard that is. It's. Well, it kind of is gymnastics in a way. Do you guys, like, prop each other up and all that? So in college sports, they have. The cheerleading team is girls and guys. And you'd think like, oh, a guy doing the cheerleader, like, it makes more sense for the guy to go play football. Brother cheerleader. It's like just as hard as football because you got to balance these girls up here. Like, the guys are all buff and, like, big and stuff. And you got to do it all game, too.

[Jocko Willink]

They must come from gymnastics.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Fully, most of the time. Yeah. That's what it seemed like.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, yeah, that's the thing. So the other thing I remember you tell me about cheer versus gymnastics is. Gymnastics is like super methodical. Like, you have to do each little. At least the place where you trained, it was like, you have to do. Imagine if. Imagine like a jiu jitsu place where, hey, before you can learn the arm lock, you gotta learn the. This sweep. And so we're not going to teach you this other thing until you know this thing and until you're proficient in it. And by the way, you're not going to be able to roll until you get your blue belt. So is that a good comparison, Rana?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, we. We worked a lot on specific skills that were like. Mine weren't the prettiest, but I. But when I went over to cheer, like, they were like, oh, can you do a standing back flat? And I'm like, no. And they're like, okay, let's get it. So I would. I just. I just. They would put a squishy pad down and you would go. But in gymnastics, it's like you're. The progression is so slow.

[Jocko Willink]

It's slow and methodical.

[Rana Willink]

And I think I was kind of like, bro, like, let me do some crazy stuff, you know? Like, I liked, I liked. I was not that great of a tumbler. You have to be well rounded in competitive cheer. Like, you have to jump, you have to do like jumps, standing backflips. Then you have to do tumbling, which is running. But then also you have to lift people above your head. And then you gotta look, remember the dance. It's just. It's just so much going on. And I think I really liked that aspect of it. Just. I don't know if I'm gonna land this freaking standing tuck. I might break my finger. Which I did. I might break my finger. I might put my face on the mat. That's fine. You just like that. That, that's all the more reason to like go ham at it.

[Jocko Willink]

And you used to puke every time.

[Rana Willink]

Like at the end of each when we'd compete. Like, when we'd compete. But even when we were getting ready to compete, we, like, you do your routine all out. So if someone falls, you gotta redo it. You gotta do the. Redo the routine from like zero. At least this is where I trained and which is what it's called. Cali Costa Lee.

[Jocko Willink]

Is Cali Coast Elite still around?

[Rana Willink]

I believe it is. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Shout out Cali Coastal.

[Rana Willink]

Shout out Cali Costa Lee. Shout Coach Betty and Coach Angela. Okay. But they were legit. Like, if we, if we let someone fall, like we were restarting and I would literally vomit because I was giving it my, like throwing myself over when I couldn't even do it regularly. Like, it was crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

Where did you.

[Rana Willink]

But that's what I think, like, made me in gymnastics. I don't think that I was very athletic. I think I kind of moved a little bit slower, I think. I don't know. Like, I did. I worked out. We worked out like before school and stuff in elementary school. And I was like, I could do pull ups and stuff, but like gymnastics. I remember watching videos and I'm like, ah. Like, it's. It's like I'm not moving very well. But then when during cheer, I feel like it taught me, like, athleticism. Like, you're gonna throw yourself over your head, but you're gonna like, land it. Because, like, it's like a really athletic dude can get a backflip very quickly because it's this like, athletic. It's like that moving Yourself throughout. Through the air and having to like really drive off your legs and. And that's that. And you gotta land it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Or else you're redoing the routine.

[Jocko Willink]

Is that. What. When did you get someone to freaking handstand? Was that from gymnastics?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, it was gymnastics. That was like the one thing that I really just got quickly. I don't know what it was. A lot of people, like, progress way faster than me and move to different gyms and for gymnastics. But when we had the handstand competition, bro, it was over for y'all.

[Jocko Willink]

So you echo. I'm. I'm not kidding. She would walk around the house, our house. Just a handstand, just walk around. Like, impressive show up for dinner. Like coming from her room, she just. Feet rolling through the hallways, through the hallways, like everywhere. She would just handstand, just walk around. It was like, you know when someone has a fidgeting habit, they turn their pen or they, they do that with their lips or they whatever, tap their foot. It was like that. But she just like, would be standing there and just do handstands and just like stand there, just a handstand walking around.

[Rana Willink]

And my feet would be flying everywhere, bro. Like, I was gonna kick you in the face.

[Echo Charles]

Was that. Did it feel like a fidget or was it like you're just like kind of into it that hardcore.

[Rana Willink]

I just loved it. Like, I just loved going. Going on my hands. I thought it was so fun.

[Echo Charles]

Well, I don't know if you know this about me. I had a handstand face as well.

[Rana Willink]

Really?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, from Judah when I was small. So I was maybe 10, 11. No, it was before fifth grade, so yeah, maybe nine. Anyway, I took judo and one of the drills was walking on your hands across the mat and back. No one could do it. You just walk and then if you go down, you continue. Right? One guy could do it. It's maybe a 20 year old guy and he was like, kind of buff. And I remember everyone, like being so impressed with this guy. And I was like, man, that'd be cool if I was that guy. You know, I was like the new guy. But I was like, what if I was that guy who could do it too? You know? So I just go home and practice and I. I think you're right. I think guys want to know. I was one of these guys who. I kind of picked it up quick. And not that I could do it really good, really quick, but the progress was quick. Like when I practiced for like even like one hour, I would be like, wait, I can kind of walk a little bit. And I said, I can kind of see myself doing this. And it took maybe three weeks, but I could do it. I could do the whole thing. And I remember everybody in judo class being like, oh, look at this kid. He's so freaking cool, or whatever with answer. And me and that other guy, who were the only guys who could do it. And then eventually, when I got into high school, I walked across the football field on my hands, and I was like, I won 50 bucks, by the way.

[Rana Willink]

Whoa.

[Echo Charles]

And, yeah, my friend was super impressed.

[Rana Willink]

But I literally just did a minute handstand at the muster this past weekend because all the kids were like, I can do handstands. I'm like, oh, really? And they were like. And I was like, well, I can do handstands, too. And they were like, no way. And I'm like, I can do one for a minute. And they were like, are you serious? I'm like, put the clock on. And I did it. They were like, whoa. They were so impressed.

[Echo Charles]

That's it.

[Rana Willink]

I don't practice that often either. Like, I think that, like, handstands in gymnastics, like, a lot of great wrestlers and jiu jitsu players are. Are like, have those roots of gymnastics. Tumbling. Just tumbling in general, too. Like, when we went out to Philly for a wrestling camp that me and my younger sister went to this past summer, bro, all the guys were doing backflips. All the wrestlers were doing backflips. And this. This camp was a really good wrestlers. And they were doing backflips. They were doing them. They were doing front handsprings off of each other. And it's just so athletic. Like, that athleticism.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Even like, like the 10th planet, guys like Geo and. And Boogie, like, they came from breakdancing and. And so they kind of bring that thing in there. A couple things about cheer that I think is. Again, these are, like, lessons learned for me. But at this point, you know, now I had. I had learned a little bit more, and I understood a little bit better. You know, I had made these mistakes with you guys, like, forcing you to do jiu jitsu and stuff like that. And so when you wanted to do cheer, of course I would. I was wrong because I just thought in my mind, I just had, like, the stereotypical cheerleader in my brain of, like, oh, what do they do? Like, sit there and go, rah, rah. Football player. And they wear a bunch of makeup and they have, like, big hair and they're.

[Rana Willink]

We did wear makeup and you did.

[Jocko Willink]

Wear makeup and you work crazy amount of makeup and crazy amount of hair. But I didn't. But. But the athletic side I didn't really understand. And actually I worked with a woman who. I told her, I was like, yeah, man, my, my. And this woman's awesome. Like a badass CEO of a company. And I was like, yeah, you know, my daughter's going to do cheerleading. And she's like, I did cheer. It's the best thing for me. And I was like, oh, really? I said, why? And she said, well, you got to stand up there, you got to do all this athletic stuff. And. And she was talking about high school cheer. She says, you know, you got to get up in front of a bunch of people and you got to yell. And that takes a lot of confidence. So it helped out her confidence. So there was. I kind of saw the negative, but at least at this point, I was smart enough to be okay. Kind of what I said earlier, like, if your kid's going to go through phases, I thought, you know what? It's going to do some cheerleading. Okay? And actually our neighbor Dieter, because his daughter. This was high school cheer. And both of you did high school cheer. And he's. He and I always talking to each other and I was driving down the alley and I started. Stopped to talk to him, and he's like, so you get. You're letting your daughter do cheer, huh? Because he thought, you know, like, how's Jocko? You know, big tough Jocko is gonna let his daughter do cheer? And I was like, he knew because his daughter did cheer. And I. He said, so you're gonna let your daughter do cheer, huh? Very accusatory. And I said something like, dude, I figured I let her do cheer right now, otherwise you're gonna end up with a freaking. A meth head. You know what I mean? Like, when you try and control people.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, she's gonna rebel.

[Rana Willink]

So I also wrestled at the same time. Anyway.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. The other thing is, I think. Yeah, that's true. Once you were wrestling. So you get a lot of. I remember also, and this is just think. Speaking again about, like, your natural abilities, which I don't. I don't know why you didn't. I'm sure there's like a specific type of body type that is good for girls, bro. I know, but like, you. You did. You did. Like, I had Sage train you guys. Sage Bergner, and she's like a national level wrestler or. Sorry, national level weightlifter. Her dad is badass, like Olympic lifting coach. And she was working with you for the summer, and one day she just said, if I could design a human for Olympic weightlifting, it would be Rana. And I was like, okay. So I thought that was pretty cool.

[Rana Willink]

I think there is a specific build for gymnastics. Plus, I just. It just wasn't like, I just didn't connect with me. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I think it was. Honestly, now that I've discussed it with you, I think you were bored. I think you wanted it more like, more activity and more like, hey, gut, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I did like, that aspect of.

[Jocko Willink]

Cheer when I'd have to pick you up from practices.

[Rana Willink]

You know, you're like, bro, you don't break a sweat. Honestly.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I know. And I was like. And I'm. I bet there's people listening right now that are like, she went to the wrong gymnastics place. Because I guarantee there's places that are.

[Rana Willink]

Psyched and it was a beginner gymnastics place. I'm not. Like, it just wasn't for me. Like, we had good coaches, good people, but I just, like, I wouldn't. It was not like a good form of exercise for me either, in my opinion. But when I got to cheer, bro, I was sweating like crazy. Like, sweat like never before. Like, really, really working my butt off. Like, it was crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

So you, you get into freshman year in high school. I think I just, I think I just straight up said, I will pay you money if you wrestle.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, well, well, my older sister tried to wrestle and I knew you were going to, like, pay me to wrestle in the first place. You weren't like. I was like, all right, I'll get paid to do it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Unfortunately for your older sister, there was. She was the only girl on the team. And she was just. After like a few weeks, she was like, dad, I'm literally just getting like my face pounded into the mat and it just sucks.

[Rana Willink]

It's sweaty and nasty and it's sweaty and nasty.

[Jocko Willink]

And there's these freaking 17 year old dudes in there. And she's the only girl.

[Rana Willink]

And that goes back to like, not having a partner.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

That you like that seriously can make it, break it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Like, I, like, my dad told my brother, you're going to go to Rana's wrestling practices. And when he wasn't in high school yet, so I'm two years older than him, and he was like, you're gonna go. So ran up because I was the only girl also. So he was like, you're gonna go and just be your partner. And that was like seriously amazing. I would have made friends eventually because I don't think that I would have. Would have not done it, but you never know. But yeah, having my brother there was like awesome because I didn't have to look around. No one wants a pair with the one girl because that's, you know, we're.

[Jocko Willink]

In high school, you know, and luckily he was probably like, I guess if you were 13, he was like 11 or something like that. But he, but you guys were about the same size. You guys were similar enough in size.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, we were, we were like exactly the same size and all. And we were just like little meatballs, like dragging our feet when we'd have to do runs for wrestling. Like we were always the last two to finish. Just like the 11 year old and the one girl, you know, holding it down. But it was fun. I didn't mind.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

And people were like supportive. They were like cheering.

[Jocko Willink]

I think it was the first match that you ever did in wrestling. Like a girl, like you almost got in a fight, A girl swung at you like a hostile girl just freaking tried to fight you.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that was a wake up call.

[Rana Willink]

She got a, she got a warning and then I lost. But it was fun.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Wait, why'd she swing at you though?

[Rana Willink]

She swung at me. I don't know. She just, she just did. We were both freshmen. First tournament, small tournament. Yeah, you know, clubbing. Clubbing the heads, a thing. I think she just like was getting pressed and swung. But my mom, I've looked over in the crowd, she was like, dude, your.

[Jocko Willink]

Mom couldn't even watch you wrestle.

[Rana Willink]

No, she, she would like, she would like leave and even. It's funny because even now when I compete, my brother cannot, he doesn't even like to watch the streaming of me. He said I was nervous. He was like, I'm nervous.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, he's more nervous.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, he's more nervous. Which I don't know, but I'm like, that's crazy. You can't even, you're not even going to watch. Yeah, it's fine.

[Echo Charles]

That's actually really good. That means like, obviously, you know, really simply put, that means he cares, you know, like cares like a lot or whatever.

[Rana Willink]

Well, I had tournaments or I have like, I had a super fight a couple, like a couple weekends ago and it was in San Diego and he.

[Echo Charles]

Didn'T go, oh, because he was nervous or whatever.

[Rana Willink]

Probably.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it was funny. I was talking to your mom that, that day because I was there and I was like, yeah, how do you feel about this because usually I. It's very common for the parents or the coach to be more nervous than the competitor. That's pretty common thing, you know. So I asked your mom, I was like, how do you feel, you know, when you see your, you know, your kids compete or whatever? She's like, I just hope they're not too stressed. And you know, like, really has this real sensitive, really caring perspective, you know, on the whole thing. It's very interesting.

[Jocko Willink]

This is also. Where did you cut you. You did your first weight cut your freshman year.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I remember because we weighed you at the house and you were over in the morning and we had to come down to victory, turn on the sauna at five in the morning and put you on the treadmill and put you in the sauna to cut weight.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And that was, I think that was the same tournament where like this girl was trying to make weight and she freaking cut all of her hair off. Like, got off the scale, was still.

[Rana Willink]

Over right next to me. And it was like a high school freshman. Freshman. And. And I mean, it's been a couple of years, obviously, but there weren't too many girls.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

At the tournament. I'm like, dude, she throws it away in the trash can, makes weight.

[Echo Charles]

That's kind of quite hard.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. I was like, all right.

[Jocko Willink]

You ended up getting hurt. You. Your second tournament, which was a bummer, and it was like a pretty bad shoulder injury. And. And that was it for your season. That was it for your freshman season.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You kept going.

[Rana Willink]

I did go to practice, though. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you kept going to practices and you kept trying to learn, but you. But the weird thing is you weren't. You were basically had like three moves, you know, like, I'm going to double leg you. I'm going to.

[Rana Willink]

I hardly even double legged. I was just like, I'm going to fireman ankle pick. But even freshman, I think freshman to sophomore year, I had no moves. I'm not even kidding. I just was like, all right, let's go.

[Jocko Willink]

But you would win based on your just like jiu jitsu that you had in an ancient memory in your brain. And you're just stronger than the other people. You would just be able to like. Like I'd watch girls grab you and you could see the. You'd see the look on their face. Like, oh, no. Like, oh, this is gonna be a little bit more difficult than I thought. Did you do, did you do cross country your freshman year too?

[Rana Willink]

I did it my sophomore year.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, so let's Go to your sophomore year. Your sophomore year.

[Rana Willink]

So freshman year. So you do two sports. So freshman year, I did two cheerleading and high school cheerleading and wrestling, and I did competitive cheerleading, too. But my second year, I didn't want to do high school cheerleading anymore. So you had to pick a second sport. I picked cross country for some random reason, because I was like, I'll get my running better. And it was like a gut check.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I remember a lot of complaining. And my. My wife, who's a saint, by the way, I don't know what the statues of limitations are on this, but I do not know that my wife would, like, pick Rana up somewhere on the conditioning run and, like, drop her off somewhere else.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. Once we got caught. Oh, we all got in trouble so badly.

[Jocko Willink]

What did? What? What? You got caught?

[Rana Willink]

So. So yeah, because our instructions. Our, like, the guy. What is it?

[Jocko Willink]

Coach.

[Rana Willink]

Our coach, he would ride along on a bike. On a bike. And like, me and my group of friends that were in that together, we would just, like, fall so far behind because we were gossiping. We were not running. We were just like. Like, I had the idea that I was going to work on my running, and then I just simply like, this is bowl. But I actually do remember something interesting that just popped into my head. All the cross country girls wore Nike pros their shorts. And when I ran my chafe, like, I would literally bleed, like, my chafe on my inner thighs. And I asked the coach and I. I said, can I please wear leggings? And he said no to me because that was our uniform. And I was like, bruh. Because when we were. We were running and it was so hot and we get so sweaty, then it gets sticky. So I was like, getting such bad bumps in between my legs. Eventually, I just wore leggings because it was, like, so painful, and I was getting really, like, inflamed. But I was like, bro, because cross country, like, historically has, like, very slender runners, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

So I was like, this is not gonna do for me. I can't. I just. I just switched it. I just wore what I want because it was too painful. But, yeah, I remember that. But, yeah, we got caught cutting. Cutting. Like, I didn't cut the course the. Of the official mat or the official run. So we'd have, like 5Ks for time in against other schools. And I. My friends were like, we're gonna hide in the bathroom because there was an extra loop. I didn't have it. I genuinely. I was like, I'm not doing that. And then they Got like around the same time as me because I did the loop. And then they were like, okay, we're going to catch up with Rana. It's like, all right, just ran it, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I'm glad that you at least had the morals to not just straight friggin cheat.

[Rana Willink]

Well, they got caught too. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Then I'm double glad. Me too. And then, then wrestling. Your sophomore year, you still had your brother coming in, but now you also had some friends on the team and you had another girl on the team that was good. And she was strong.

[Rana Willink]

Super.

[Jocko Willink]

And it kind of. She was, she was heavier than you.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

She was taller than you.

[Rana Willink]

She was, she was a senior when I was a sophomore and she was one of my friend, one of my wrestling friends. Older sister who just went into wrestling that one year of her senior year. And it was so like, nice to have a partner. Her name was Olivia. And my brother was starting to get a growth spurt too, so I couldn't like roll with him anymore. He would just like push me over, bro. But yeah, it was nice to have Olivia. And we had a bunch of seniors that year and that year was really hard. We ran a lot, we drilled a lot. And yeah, I honestly don't remember too much about it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you were. I don't know what you. I don't know what you like, your record was orever. It's probably something like even. You know what I mean? It was probably pretty even, like.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But you know, the thing is you, you weren't too skilled.

[Rana Willink]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

But you were freaking strong and you were tough and you had a couple good moves that you would be able to just impose on people. And you know, when I look back now, I, I should have done more. I should have been more proactive in like getting you to wrestling camps where you would learn a lot.

[Rana Willink]

Well, I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

True, true. Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Because then I think, yeah, I could have at least. Obvious.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. Because if I was, if I would have been too fired up, I think like, I can ruin anything because wrestling.

[Rana Willink]

This is the thing. Wrestling. My dad, my dad did not wrestle in high school. They don't think they had wrestling.

[Jocko Willink]

No.

[Rana Willink]

And it was sort of because when I did jiu jitsu, I did. I, I think like I did like it when he, when I actually had to fight someone. Like, I would be like, oh, no. But then I, I wanted to fight someone. Like, I liked it. And I think the same was true in wrestling. But it was my, it was like, even though they're Very similar. I, I, in my mind was like, they are so different. And this is mine. And that's his thing. Jiu jitsu is his thing. Because, remember, I would tell you, like, wrestling's way better. I would say, wrestling's way better. I'd be like, I don't like Jiu Jitsu. You gotta, like, do all this stuff on the ground. Do you have to, like, it's just a pin for wrestling. It's just. That's. You just have one objective. There's not all these submissions you could do. And in my mind, I was like, okay, this is my thing. My dad would come into the wrestling room, like, what? Like once or twice. It was just like, me, my brother, like, my. My wrestling friends. And it was fun.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

And like, my dad never was like, you need to go to this camp. It was sort of just like, I'm going to practices. You didn't tell me to go to practices with my shoulder her. I was just went, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I definitely had recognized the error of my ways. And like, I said, like, I kind of might have gotten missed in the conversation, but I looked at you. Echoing. I was like, I can ruin anything.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And I didn't get missed.

[Jocko Willink]

I can straight up, I can make anything suck.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, I can make the funnest thing into, like, a stupid competition where all of a sudden everyone's freaking stressed out for no reason forever.

[Rana Willink]

By the way, that. That, in my opinion, is fun. Like, who. What if the kids, like, just play dive and you're a good job? They would have been done in one second.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.

[Rana Willink]

I honestly thought it was fun. Sometimes it was a little crazy, but, like, all the games and stuff, I had a good time.

[Jocko Willink]

Let me put you this way. I'll joke about this with your little sister. And let's say she's like, let's say if she said, oh, I'd, you know, I. I want to play guitar. I'd be. I'll. I'll joke. This will be my joke with her. I'll be like, okay, let's go down to Guitar center right now. We're gonna get you some lessons. I'll get you signed up. I'll get you an amp. You need to get a Gibson sg. It's a very good guitar. And she just laughs. But that's how I can ruin things. You know what I mean? I can just go because it's a.

[Rana Willink]

Joke now, but it's a joke now.

[Jocko Willink]

But back in the day, it would. Could have been more serious and may have been more serious. That's why I was probably like, dude, so stoked that she's wrestling. So stoked that she's like, wrestling is better. I'm like, cool. In my mind, I'm like, bro, you're.

[Rana Willink]

Not gonna be like, you should do the summer thing, because there's no way. I think in my. In my mind that would have blown up.

[Jocko Willink]

Maybe.

[Rana Willink]

You know, I don't know. Maybe.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, then by your junior year, you were more fired up for wrestling.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you actually did train all summer long.

[Rana Willink]

No, I only trained. So I only trained my junior year, summer, going into my senior year, because I really wanted to make it to state. I was like, my coach, Coach Spencer, he. We worked out at Victory every morning, and then we'd go to Taylor Johnson's wrestling class during the summer. And then when school started, we. The wrestling squad because. Because wrestling was the second season of high school sports, so we had, like, those first couple months, and then we, me, like, and my brother and our other wrestling friends would come in to just Victory, and Taylor would teach later in the day. And it was really fun, but that was the only time I did off season.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

On my own volition, and it was fun. And then senior year was. Was like, crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah. And you. And your goal was to make it to state, and you. You did make it to state, and that was freaking. That was epic. But the other thing that. That I think you started doing your senior year was, like, cutting weight.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I started a couple years before, but my senior year, I really was, like, legit cray cray about it a little bit.

[Jocko Willink]

You were, like, focused on weight. Not just in wrestling, too, just, like, in life. Like, you just wanted to be. You didn't want to be heavy.

[Rana Willink]

I did not. No, I didn't. But that's why it's so hard for me to recall. Even my senior year, there were so many good moments, like making it to state. But at state, I, like, I weighed in at, like, six pounds less than I could have. And my coach said, you have five pounds. You need to eat. But I would, like. I wouldn't, because I, like, just didn't want to. I wanted to, like, lose weight. And I feel like. Like, I was literally at state and I was, like, worried about gaining weight.

[Jocko Willink]

Even though you.

[Rana Willink]

Even though I had £6 allowance and.

[Jocko Willink]

You'Re at state, and you were like, no, I don't want to gain any weight. Getting to state was probably, like, one of my best memories was you. So you were at. You Were in. In. It's. It CIF and Masters. It's basically the regional tournament to get to state.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so you had the first day. You lost one.

[Rana Willink]

And my first match.

[Jocko Willink]

Was it your first match? No, I'm saying the first day.

[Rana Willink]

The first day, I think. Yeah, I think it was my second match I lost.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Either that it was the later in the day, but anyways, I don't know. You lost a match your first day, and what that meant was Echo Charles the next day. She had to win five straight matches.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Each match getting harder and harder and harder as you're going smaller and smaller into the bracket. And so she loses one match that first day. And I remember we can. She had. She could have done the weight class below, but she qualified at whatever it was 130.

[Rana Willink]

Qualified at 143. So. So. But at that tournament, I was like 140. I was probably below, like, 136 or something.

[Jocko Willink]

So she could have made the next weight down, but she already qualified. So she loses that first day, and I'm like, you know, and I'm in my mind, dude. I'm like, well, it's so bad that she didn't make it to state because how it's gonna be hard to win five matches straight the next day. But I was like. I offered up some comfort food, and I was like, yo, you want some Pizza Hut? And she's like, yeah. And I'm like, what do you want? She's like, whatever. And I just, like, ordered everything. I ordered pizzas and pastas, you know, the whole nine yards. And she just kicked it and, you know, chowed down. And then the next day, she had these five matches. And what was. I don't know what happened. I don't know if it happened after the first match, but you could see that little girl that carried the rock across the river. Like, that little girl arrived, and each match you could see her. It was also. You had worked with, you know, Taylor, you'd work with Spencer, your coach. So you had more skills now.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you were starting to apply them for real. And not just imposing them because you're stronger, but doing them correctly and setting things up and stuff like this. And so each match you got you. It was watching you get better and more determined. Each one you won, you were, like, getting more and more confident and more and more just. I got this. And we're out in Brawley. Yeah, Brawley's awesome. It's an awesome. It's an Imperial Valley. It's. It's A, they have great athletic program, but it's also. It's in the middle of the desert. There's nothing out there but farms. And so the kids don't have a lot to do besides, like, compete and train and. And they're all into it. And so they happen to hold this tournament out there in Brawley. And in your. Whatever it was the second to your last match. You were going against a girl from Brawley. The stands are filled with people from Brawley. And the Brawley people, man, Brawley people are fired up, man. They're there to win. And so the crowd's going crazy. And you had a crazy match with this awesome girl from Brawley, and you threw down and you beat her. Nine, eight.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, yeah, I got called for stalling. Yeah, I was. I was up 97 and, like, 9, 7.

[Jocko Willink]

Just. It was crazy. And the crowd was going totally insane. Because think of how when you. When you're down by one point, how crazy is the crowd? The crowd's going totally nuts and she's stalling.

[Rana Willink]

Also, they had a full women's team stat. Like, they had, like, a team A, team B. Yeah. And I think there was only. Well, I was the only one, like, left in from my school, but there was only, like, four of us that went to cif. And all the girls, like, all the Brawley girls were, like, sitting in front, bro.

[Jocko Willink]

And the Brawley girls, like, they all have a letterman's jacket that has, like, the number of pins they got on it, what their weight class is. Like, it's. Yeah, there. It's an intimidating crew.

[Echo Charles]

They're going hard.

[Jocko Willink]

Props to prop to Brawley. So she won that match, which was awesome. And then. And then you had in your. In the match for third place, which meant you get to go to state. She had a girl that. That you had beat before a couple times. And that girl told me afterwards, I think she said something like, that she was just scared to wrestle you because you were so strong. But I was like, yes, but you won that, and then you ended up going to state. Probably one of the worst things in my whole life is when you went to state, I had a speaking event, and so I went to, like, I watched your first match, which I got.

[Rana Willink]

Annihilated because the girl was third. Like, third in the state or something, which is fine. I just was happy to be there. But then. So if you win one the first day, it just depends on your bracket. Well, I lost. I lost the first day, but then I was on to day two because our bra Something with the bracket. I just was. I just was there.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, it's.

[Rana Willink]

Wait, did I win this? No, I didn't. I won my second.

[Jocko Willink]

You won your second day? So I flew. I had to leave. And if you ever get a chance to go to state championships in California, go watch it. Because it's. They say it's the biggest wrestling tournament in the world because there's only one. There's in different states. They have like, different size schools. So it's like, oh, this is a. AAA school, double A school. And so there can be a bunch of different champions at 134 in California. There's one. So they say it's the biggest wrestling tournament in the world because it's 36 million people or I don't know how many kids there are, but it's. It's all these kids. And they go from all these kids all over the state of California down to one true champion.

[Rana Willink]

And that was the first year boys and girls competed at the same tournament too. So it was a legit. It was in Bakersfield, but it was at this, like, big arena. It was really cool. Yeah, but then I won one the next day and lost one the next day.

[Jocko Willink]

And I wasn't there when you won.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I won. That was pretty cool.

[Jocko Willink]

So. Bummed out. Yeah, but you were the first. I think you were the first person to make it to state from Point Loma High School in wrestling in like 35 years or something crazy like that.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, that's true.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So. So that was kind of epic.

[Rana Willink]

Held it down.

[Jocko Willink]

The goal was accomplished. You get done with that. What year did you graduate high school?

[Rana Willink]

2019.

[Jocko Willink]

2019. So 2019 now you go to college and you go to Cal Poly.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, after I wrestled, I was like, I'm done with this rest. Like, I'm done with grappling. Just in general.

[Jocko Willink]

You thought it was over?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I just was like, it's too much. The way. The weigh in part was, like, really eating out my mind. And I just said, okay, I'm done with this.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, so then you weren't worried about weight anymore?

[Rana Willink]

Oh, no, I was.

[Jocko Willink]

So what? So. So what was your attitude when you got to college? What were you doing? What were you into? What was happening?

[Rana Willink]

So when I went to college, I was like, it's just me. Just me. No, like, not. My family was there and it was rough. My first year was rough, but we got Covid.

[Jocko Willink]

Wait, what was rough your first year?

[Rana Willink]

So basically I just. I had a couple of friends and they're really awesome. Friends, but I didn't room with them. I isolated myself a lot in my first year, and I was very, very meticulous about everything that I ate and the way that I looked. So basically it sort of started. This inkling started my. When I was in seventh or eighth grade is when I downloaded a calorie counting app with my. One of my best friends at the time. And like, when we. When I was in high school, I was like, it was sort of nice because I could just put it off on wrestling, that I was cutting weight or whatever. And I guess you could say I'm dense. So people. People would tell me, like, when I was not eating or eating very little, they would say that I looked good and things like that. And I'm not putting it on anyone. It was same thing as when you. You would tell me things. It was like I took them a certain way. So I took it as, like, you like me better this way, and, like, I just keep going. So basically, college was like an environment where it was just me and, like, I could just. I had full reign. Like, it was. There was no one looking over me. It was just like, I'm going to do everything that I want to do. I'm going to weigh everything that I eat. I'm going to, like. Like, not go places. I'm going to isolate myself.

[Jocko Willink]

You say you had full rain. What you mean is you. You actually mean you had full control.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. Over, I guess. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Everything that you wanted to do. Well, you know, because you said you had free reign, which indicates, like, you kind of just went wild, but it's actually the opposite.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You had. You were now in full control. You could only buy the foods that.

[Rana Willink]

You thought you should. It was free reign of doing some. Doing what I wanted to do.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Which was the strictness. Full control. I was like, this is awesome. I don't have to hide anything from anyone. I'm just gonna weigh all my food, take pictures of what I look like every single day, and, like, that's that. Exercise a little bit too much, and.

[Jocko Willink]

That'S that, you know, how much is too much.

[Rana Willink]

I know I was thinking about this when I. When I was driving over here because, like, obviously exercising every day is, like, awesome, and I do it to this day, but it was just like. It wasn't even like I was exercising too much. It was like, for all the wrong reasons. It was more like a little different perspective of because I was doing fine and normal things. I was lifting stuff that I do now that if someone was doing this Today, it wouldn't be like, oh, they're going crazy. But it was just like, yeah, that's just how it was.

[Jocko Willink]

So when you say the lifting for the working out for the wrong reasons, just. You weren't working out to be healthy. You weren't working out because you were training for some kind of competition. You were just working out basically to burn calories.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. So basically, the like app that I had, it gives you a certain amount of calories, and I'm short and all the only three things it asks for, your age, your height, and your weight. So, like, it doesn't ask anything else. And so that's so sweet. It gives you, like, amount of calories, which I think mine was like a thousand.

[Jocko Willink]

Does it ask you your goal, too?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, it asks you or your goal, and it can say, like, you, like, however much you want to lose, whatever. So then my goal was like a thousand calories a day. Right. Because that's what it tells. That's what it told me to do. It told me to. This was. Okay, this is a backtrack. This was in eighth grade when I put this information in. And I'm a child, first of all, and I'm dense, so I weigh. I weigh more, but I didn't. I don't think I looked too, like, I don't think I looked unhealthy when I was a child. And that was. So that was an eighth grade. It was like a thousand calories. Everything that you did, exercise wise, you put it, you logged it in, and it gave you more you could eat, essentially. So. So basically, like, dude, a thousand calories.

[Jocko Willink]

A day is freaking starvation, starvation diet. Starvation diet. This is like. And by the way, people talk about, like, oh, should your kids have phones? And they're thinking about Snapchat and Twitter and all this stuff. Here I am, like, I had no idea. I didn't know that you had this app until you told me the other day. Yeah, like, I.

[Rana Willink]

And that was in seventh grade.

[Jocko Willink]

And even if I would have seen it, even if I would have seen it, I probably would have just been like, oh, well, she's, you know, whatever. I. Oh, she's being healthy, monitoring her health. Yeah, yeah, all good.

[Echo Charles]

That's good.

[Rana Willink]

But. But that was in seventh grade, and now I'm, what, 20. I'm 23 now, so.

[Jocko Willink]

But in college, you were what?

[Rana Willink]

I was still using that in college. So in college. I went to college when I was 18, so I started using it when I was 14 years old. So. And. But I wasn't Too rigid. When I. When I, like, going through high school, like, there were times where I'd be super on it, and then, you know, you have family dinners and things like that and whatever. But in college, that's the thing. Everything is controllable. Like, everything. You can say, no. No one is living with you to be like, you good. You should go to the dinner or whatever. And so I was so stoked because I was, like, hiding it the whole. Like, I was hiding it a long time, but I didn't really feel like it was something to hide. It was just like, this is just what I'm doing, and I'm losing weight, and that's good. And that's, like, in your mind. It's healthy. It's healthy. Yeah. So I didn't. It wasn't like I was hiding this huge secret that I. That. To my, like, from my parents and stuff, but I just simply, like, didn't. I just kept it to myself. This is what I should be doing. And then. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then Covid came. Is that. Did you. Did Covid come your freshman year of college?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, so that was my freshman year of college. And.

[Jocko Willink]

Now it's, like, beyond full control.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because now you just can't even go anywhere, and it's like, I got total control over everything in the world.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you have to go to classes or do classes?

[Rana Willink]

Coming home for me was really hard to do because of that. Because of the. Everything that I bought. Like, everything that I wanted to consume, I bought. Everything was under my control. So going home for me was really, like, hard to do because everyone's eating dinner. No. No one's weighing anything. No one's. Like, my mom isn't measuring out the tablespoons in her butter that she's putting in the pasta. So, like, that was. I did not like to come home that often. I was like. I was like, oh, this is gonna be so hard. Like, driving home, and then when I come back, I'd be like, time to get back on track. Like, you know, that cycle of it.

[Jocko Willink]

So you're home in quarantine, and actually, we were living in, like, a smaller house at the time.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you and both your sisters were in one room.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then we eventually kicked your sister out into the living room. But it was kind of good because you got to hang out with your sister kind of close for a while.

[Rana Willink]

Your older sister. Me and my older sister didn't really talk in high school. We, like, ran in different groups and, like, just liked different things, and we never really Talked. I. I don't even really remember talking to her, like, at all, honestly. And then. And then during COVID we. We slept on a bunk bed together and, like, got super close immediately. Just became, like, came back as, like, two different, like, people from who we were in high school. And it was, like, so much fun. We were. We would, like, coveting. Made us so, so close, which is fun.

[Jocko Willink]

This reminds me of. So I had this rule. Echo Charles.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Another good thing for parenting. I had a rule in my own head for when my kids were little, and that is, like, I will never tell them to, like, be quiet. Off. They want to play guitar, Play guitar. They want to play piano, Play piano. They want to sing, sing. They want to dance, dance. Like, I was never going to be. I was never going to stifle any creativity.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

And I kept that rule. And I never stifled creativity and certainly would never disrespect my kids by telling them to shut up. Right. Like, I never told my kids to shut up. In fact, I. In the past 20 years, I've only told someone to shut up, I think four times. And it was the same person, and that person was Ran. And it was all during COVID And each time I did it, she smiled and nodded and said, okay, so we're in this little house during COVID and my two daughters, who both have really good singing voices, they were both, like, the lead in the school play, the musicals, and all this stuff. They both have really good voices. They would freaking sing as loud as they could. The dumbest things over and over again for hours. For hours. And Rana has an especially powerful voice. Do you know who Adele is?

[Echo Charles]

Of course, yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, she can sing Adele songs.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. All right.

[Jocko Willink]

And, like, good.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Louder than Adele.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Adele has to use a microphone. Random. So there was a few times during COVID where these two girls would be like, scream. Don't you have a name for scream singing or something?

[Rana Willink]

Belting.

[Jocko Willink]

They would be belting as loud as they could.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I'd be in my room and just come out and be like, ran. Shut up.

[Echo Charles]

So she kind of had it coming.

[Jocko Willink]

To her each time she. Each time she, like, she totally knew.

[Rana Willink]

Like, I, like, forget. Like, when my dad's on calls, I'll yell. My mom's like, bro, he's on a call.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And this is something else I talk about. So there's different leadership skills that a person can have, and some of them are genetic. And, like. Like, if you're going to be. If you play basketball, it's genetically Good to be taller, obviously. Well, if you're a leader, it's good to have a loud voice. And having a loud voice is genetic. And the reason I know it's genetic is because I have a loud voice, and all my kids have a loud voice. And so, like, there's a lot of noise that can come from my kids. So it was cool that you got to hang out with your sister. It was a little hard on my ears, but that was good.

[Echo Charles]

Live by the sword, die by the sword. That's what we call it in the industry.

[Jocko Willink]

So the freshman year, the COVID thing, the quote unquote quarantine, because the Willink house wasn't so much of that varying.

[Echo Charles]

Levels of acceptance about that varying levels.

[Jocko Willink]

We were kind of just getting after it. But then for your sophomore year. So this must be why you went back to slow at the beginning of the year for your sophomore year, because you were like, oh, I don't want to be at home with all this freaking butter. Unweighted butter in the pasta.

[Rana Willink]

Well, I think it was. I think, yeah, that definitely played a part. And it also, just, like being in a room with three of your sisters, like, it just was crowded, so I just went back up. Not really, like, looking back, I'm sure that played an impact, but in everything made sense in my mind. That's what happens. You. You make it make sense. You're, like, doing it for a reason, and you're convinced, especially when you don't tell your parents or don't tell anyone that's close to you, everything is so, like, perfect in your mind. Like, this is. This is it. I'm on track. Boom. You're. If. If you have a little thought, like, is this. Is this, like, should I be doing, like, should I enjoy myself a little bit more? You're just like, no, if I want to see progress, and then it all just makes sense in your mind.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I think is a really good red flag for life is what you just said about when you're not telling anyone. So when. If you're doing things that you're not telling people. You hear this with alcoholics, right? Like, the alcoholic is drinking a bottle of wine at night alone, and they don't tell anyone, but they tell themselves it's just wine. Actually, there's. There's resveratrol in wine. It's kind of good for you. And plus, it helps me sleep like that. They're just making those things up.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So if there's things in your life and I've had friends that are. That have had bad issues and they don't say anything about it. And I'm like, bro, that was going on. You didn't, like, tell me what was happening. So I think that's a really good red flag for everybody to remember if there's things going on in your life that you're not telling anyone. And, and yet you've convinced yourself that it's okay. But, you know, deep inside, you know you couldn't convince anyone else of that and everyone else. Big bro, what are you doing? So that's a very good red flag of checking yourself, because we can all say, you know what? I just. I just like having a drink on the weekends. What's the big deal? And it's just a few beers and my wife's already asleep, so who care? You see what I'm saying? You're just lying to yourself. But. And you can get away with that. But, you know, if you told some other people, they'd be like, hold on.

[Rana Willink]

And even if you. Even if you have the idea, you're like, well, why am I even telling someone? It's not that big of a deal either.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, because. Exactly. Because what's, What's, What's.

[Rana Willink]

What's so bad?

[Jocko Willink]

What's. Three beers a night.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Or six beers. I mean, occasional shot.

[Rana Willink]

You don't want to be that dramatic person that. Because in your mind, you convince is not a big deal. You're like, I don't need to go tell someone. Because then they're going to be like. Because in your mind, it all makes sense. You think their reaction is going to be like, okay, well, why are you, like, telling me this? You know, like, okay, you're, like, making sure you eat healthy. That makes sense. Because in my mind, I'm like, I'm just being healthy. I'm just being healthy. So that's. That's good.

[Jocko Willink]

Will you go ahead?

[Echo Charles]

Would you consider just thinking back? Would you? Because there's certain levels of this thing. Right. It's not just like you, you know, so let's say if you were to break it into three levels, One is like, we'll say normal. We'll say run of the mill. Just, you know, as far as your regard for. We'll call it your relationship with food and weight and, you know, physique or whatever.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And then you have the next level up is what we might call what, obsession. And then the level three is disorder. You know, I like people straight up just eating disorders. You know? See what I'm saying? Would you say you're in the obsession scenario or not even that. Or like, what would you. Where.

[Jocko Willink]

Let us continue the story.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, okay. So there's more.

[Jocko Willink]

No, I think this is where we're getting into full obsession. Brushing up against or entering into. What's the last. What's the highest level you gave disorder.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I guess there's got to be something around beyond disorder, which is like. Or maybe something in between.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I'm sure. Like, it feels like it's a whole spectrum. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's when you got back up to slow. Were you. Could you go to classes? So now this is like 2020, the fall of 2020. Could you go to class classes?

[Rana Willink]

No, we had remote. Remote classes.

[Jocko Willink]

So now you're literally in your room.

[Rana Willink]

Oh, yeah, I was in my room.

[Jocko Willink]

And now you have. You had complete control before, and now you have even more control.

[Rana Willink]

And keep in mind, I. I was able to bring a car up so you have the dining hall of your freshman year. You can go to, like, the store that they have on campus, but a lot of times and shout out to Cal Poly. They put their calories on everything, too, that you eat. So, like, it was pretty. It was fairly easy to do. But when I went to the grocery store, like, that was my sophomore year when I had a car and I was. No classes by myself, bro.

[Jocko Willink]

Just.

[Rana Willink]

It was crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you were full. Psycho. So you're. You're weighing your food.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. Your vegetables. Everything. Everything I put into my, like, mouth. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You had a food scale. Like a miniature food scale.

[Rana Willink]

Because if. You know, I can't. Never mind.

[Jocko Willink]

Go ahead. We're here.

[Rana Willink]

No, no, because I don't want to. Because. Because if you measure things, it's not that. It's not accurate. If you have a tablespoon, it's not accurate, as opposed to a gram. And we would learn that, like. Like, I was a nutrition science major, which. Because I was, like, so obsessed with food in high school, I was looking at the options for college, and I was like, well, I guess I'm really passionate about, and that's what I would play it off as. Passion. And I just loved, like. I loved, like, food and blah, blah, blah. So I picked a nutrition science as my. My major, which made it, like, so much worse. And that's. Which is so good. It's a great major. Like, it helps a lot of people, but it is. It is common. And I remember learning this in class. It is common for people. People that struggle with that type of thing, to pick that major.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, it's also because they want to.

[Rana Willink]

Go back and help. Like, that's like. I just saw a video of a guy who's like, I did dermatology because I had really bad acne as a kid. And so it's sort of that. Like, that, like, you. You have an interest in it. Even though. Even though I was in the depths of it, I just was like, oh, yeah, Because I'm so passionate about it. I'm just gonna make this my job. I didn't really care about anything. Something else.

[Jocko Willink]

So when you said we could cut it out, basically what you're saying we could cut out is because. Is.

[Rana Willink]

I don't want to get. I don't want to make people be like, okay, I'm not accurate with my weighing. Like, with a quarter cup.

[Echo Charles]

Well, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you're saying we'll make people more paranoid than they are.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. They'll be like, okay, I need to go buy a scale to be. I don't know. Just. Just.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Just so you know, like, there's very few people. Like, there's. Most people are like, oh, whatever.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I know. I just. It's just like, anything you see online, it's like, yeah. It's like, people. People. There's, like, accounts of. Of tips for people, for how people lost lost weight. It's like. There's accounts for, like, here's. Here's how to help you. It's like, only eat this. Like, it'll be. It'll be like, meal inspirations, and it'll be like a plate of cucumber. Like, I'm not even kidding. There's a side of the Internet that's like. It's like. They call it, like. I think I. They just call it, like, anorexic. Like, inspiration. They call it inspiration.

[Jocko Willink]

They. Wait, do they call it anorexic?

[Rana Willink]

They call it, like, weight loss inspiration. Anorexic inspiration. Like, inspo. Like, people posting their. Like, how skinny they are inspiration. And there's like, I know it's crazy. That's why I'm like, I don't know. You got to try lightly with this type of stuff. But, yes, it's not accurate.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, actually, I think it's. I don't. I don't want you to tread too lightly, because there's someone that's listening to this right now that would be like, oh, gosh. I think that way.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I think it's actually very healthy that you say this kind of stuff because someone's rationalizing it right now and not being like, wait a Second, a tablespoon. And I was worried about, you know, 0.4 of a gram extra sugar.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's not very healthy to be obsessed around that.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. And also, like, going back, like, if you're weighing out your baby carrots, let's like, let's just. Like, you're eating baby carrots. That's like.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Good, bro. Like, you're good.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You know, I would. I would venture to say you can't eat too many baby carrots, but guess what? You can. And you know why I know that? Because I did.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I had. I had, like, a couple bags of baby carrots. I was sitting around, and there was probably nothing else to eat. And so I was just chowing on these baby carrots and all this. Like, four hours later, my stomach was in knots. And it turns out you can't digest that many baby carrots.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a vegetable, so be careful.

[Echo Charles]

Well, I don't think you have to be that careful for that scenario. But the. Yeah, well, you can eat too much of anything. You can drink too much water.

[Jocko Willink]

True.

[Echo Charles]

So. Okay. And I think that's where you went. That's the zone. Plus your use. So whatever. But the calories and stuff, you're allowed, I think, FDA or whatever, you know, you're allowed 20% leeway of as far as accuracy goes. You know how they give fudge fat, you know, like, for error or whatever. And I think it's like 20%, which, when you think about it, if you're obsessing over anything, especially calories, but macros as well, it's kind of like 20%. It's kind of a lot.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

I'm trying to be even.

[Rana Willink]

Like, even things that will say, well, three pieces of bread is this many calories. Two pieces of bread is this many calories. But when you put it on the scale, it's not the same weight of the serving size that it gives you.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

So it, like, you. If you really want to be accurate, then you can do so and way. Because people will be like, well, they. They said that 30 grams is the serving size, and that's three pieces of this, but it's actually 32 if you put three pieces on the scale.

[Jocko Willink]

So this is when, you know you have issues, quite honestly.

[Rana Willink]

Well, no, I was like, well, you didn't know.

[Jocko Willink]

But I'm saying to the general populace, if you're, like, weighing the two pieces of bread, which are supposed to have a weight of 30 grams and they have a. A weight of 34 G and so you carve off 4 G. Yeah. Right? This is where you were at.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, 100%.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Especially if the motivation is just looks like, you know, obviously you have your.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, if you.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly right. But it's kind of like, hey, I'm looking in the mirror and giving me these kinds of emotions now I'm going to go be Obsession.

[Jocko Willink]

Then.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. I feel like that's kind of an incongruent relationship.

[Rana Willink]

It was like, looks, but also in my mind, it, like, scratched an itch. Like, when I'd have, like, certain. Like, when I knew everything that was like, I was eating. It was, like, so satisfying. I don't know why. And I was. And. And I would shave off the bed and be like, yeah, like, okay. It made sense in my mind because I could put the 30. 30 in there and you put the amount of grams. So this. This time. I had a different app when I got older, and it, like, was a calorie tracker, and it went back to your phone, and you can, like, see how much exercise those are.

[Jocko Willink]

Your wrist calorie track.

[Rana Willink]

It was a wrist one.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah. The wearable.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. And they. And those track are those things. So that's even more. Or they're not. They haven't been proven to be accurate, but I was like. I just took it at face value. Like, this is. This is. And that's way more accurate than just being like, I did something for an hour.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, so it actually is more accurate than just guessing.

[Rana Willink]

No. My first app would be, like, if you can put in an hour of wrestling and it would give a general. But this is like, it has your heart rate.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Rana Willink]

So I trusted it more, which makes sense. Right? Like, it's more trustable.

[Jocko Willink]

You started going to, like, an underground speakeasy CrossFit gym at this point.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. So that. It was during COVID when we. When we didn't have classes, and one of my friends started working out at just a warehouse that had, like, weights and stuff and sometimes workout classes as well. And I just started doing that instead because we could. Because our rec center was. Was closed down. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You. You were working out. I remember you telling me or you told me the other day that one of your friends was, like, scared of your workouts because you were going psycho.

[Rana Willink]

Well, so that was freshman year when I lived in the dorm, and I would have to do, like, certain things. Like, yeah, I would be really, really tired, and I was not, like, feeling myself well. And I would just be like, I have to hit this. This number. I'm like, sorry, Like, I'm not gonna leave until I do of stairstepper or whatever. On the stairstepper.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And again, just so, like, a warning to everyone here. This. I didn't know about any of this. I was just like, oh, yeah, of course my daughter works out. She's been working out since she was literally five years old. Of course she's working out. Didn't think twice about it. Never thought twice about it.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, she eats healthy. Yeah, dude. I mean, I don't know. Like, you know, I used to be like that with, like, hey, kids, don't eat that. It's freaking garbage. Like, eat healthy. Don't. You know, Like, I would do that. I would say that to you guys for. So for you to grow up and be like, oh, that's garbage. I don't want to eat that. I want to eat this. I'd be like, oh, cool. And then for you to be like, oh, yeah, well, only eat a certain amount because I want to be healthy. I would still. This wouldn't. It would. I would have had to have a lot of voluntary information from you that you would only have given me if you wanted to.

[Rana Willink]

And I wasn't going to.

[Jocko Willink]

And you weren't going to.

[Rana Willink]

And like, I told you, it's not. It. It wasn't even, like, healthy foods, though. It's like, it's one thing. It's. I mean, I did. I did eat healthy foods a lot of the time. But, like, for example, this place, this grocery store next to us, had this chicken Alfredo, and on the back, it said, a thousand and ten calories. And that was cutting my. My limits. That's. That's how much I could have. And so I would wait all day. So that. That, like, isn't like, oh, you know, that. That's like. Like, I love chicken Alfredo, obviously. But it wasn't like. It wasn't like, I'm eating healthily. It's like, I'm just like. That wasn't. That was like, no food. It was like, this big. And I would just save my whole day for that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

And just be like, okay, I got my calories, and.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. But I wouldn't really think about that. Like, I'd see you eating chicken Alfredo, and I'd be like, oh, what? You know, I mean, it's just like, oh, yeah. I didn't really know that you didn't eat anything else that day. You know what I mean?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But now that. Now that you're. Now that you were back up at school, though. When did this happen with Us. You were, you were telling the story about how you took a cooking class.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So now were you guys back in?

[Rana Willink]

So, yeah, that was my sophomore year. So for nutrition science class, we had to take a mandatory three hour cooking class. And each week you get a separate, like a menu.

[Jocko Willink]

Three hours per week?

[Rana Willink]

Three hours per week. Just once, once a week. Like, it was like, I think mine was on Wednesday. And on Wednesday you got a menu. You had a little, like, you had a team and you made this food. And we, like, all had a potluck at the end of everyone's menu that you bring. And the food was like crispy chicken thighs, like mashed potatoes with so much delicious butter brownies, homemade, like homemade pita, homemade hummus. Like, we would all make different things and we'd all put it on this long table and it's a 10 week course. I did not eat a bite of our food that we made for the whole 10 weeks. And my teacher said, as a chef, as a food scientist, you have to taste your food and see what it needs. Like, if it needs salt, if it needs pepper. No, don't trick me like that. No. I was like, I didn't, I did not try it. I said, can you try this food? I would ask my partners, can you try it? Is it, is it good enough? Is it salty enough? I wouldn't even touch it. Yeah. But in my mind, that's why I said, I know I have so much discipline. Right? Right. But then in my mind, as we were talking about it made so much sense to me. Like, it is not in my control. And like that, that's like, what, are you gonna track a bite? Like, how you don't even know how much stuff is in that bite. You don't know how much butter is in the mashed potatoes. You don't, you can't, you can't track it, so better off just leaving it. And I was, that made so much sense in my head. I honestly was, like, so proud of myself too. I was like, period. I, like, made it the 10 weeks and that's that. And then it wasn't till like a couple of weeks ago when I spoke at the women's assembly where I was trying to think of stories because I didn't want to say, I was, I was restricting myself. I wanted to come, I wanted to convey what, what the nature of it was. And I feel like that's when I remembered that story. And I was like. And I just blocked it out because it's like, I, I, I don't I wish I tried all the food, obviously, but, you know, it's what it is.

[Jocko Willink]

So is that. Would you say that is, like, something, or. How did you. How did you feel? Like, there's. What made you say, this is not correct. I am not. This isn't healthy. This isn't good for me. What made you think that was there? Like, a straw that broke the camel's back? I know that. You also told me you were, like, weren't going out with your friends because you were just like, well, I don't know where they're going. I don't know what they're gonna be eating. So I'd rather just stay home because it's better, and I'll be stronger and more disciplined if I just stay in my house.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, well, so basically going to college, I thought, like, I. I would say, like, I struggled with food. Like, I would say it in the past tense, like, talking about the senior year of wrestling. Like, I would say I struggled with food. But it's all good now, and because.

[Jocko Willink]

Now I have control.

[Rana Willink]

Exactly. So. Because when I was in high school, I felt a little bit more out of control in a sense that, like, I didn't. I did not measure anything in. Like, I would be like, I guess I get. I guess I had, like, three carne asada tacos. But you can't, like, weigh out, like, the meat. The tortillas. So I would be in class and just be like, I struggle. Or, like, not in class. I would tell my friends, like, oh, yeah, I struggled with this in high school, but, you know, it's. It's fine now. And I think in my mind, the first two years of college, I did not really think that it was that much of an issue until, like, even in that class, I didn't think it was that much of an issue. I just thought I was, like, dialed.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, just freaking super squared away, disciplined.

[Rana Willink]

Imagine. And I guess it. It wasn't. It wasn't my behavior. It was, like, my mind. That was my breaking point. My mind, I could not shut it off for, like, I had so much trouble falling asleep because I would just constantly think about everything. Like, how I looked, everything that I ate, what I was gonna wear, how I was gonna be perceived. Like, the body wise to other people that I was going crick. I was driving myself actually insane. So it wasn't any of the behaviors that I was like, okay, maybe I should stop doing this. I was like, I cannot do this anymore. This is, like, making me go actually insane. And I was like, I Think I talked to my friend about it, my friend Bella, and she. And I was like, I don't think I could do this anymore. Like, if I have to continue to live life like this, like, I can't. Like, I remember being like, what if I have to weigh my wedding cake on my wedding? Like, I remember thinking that. Like, what if I'm worried about that on my wedding day? Like, that was like. I was like, dude, I.

[Jocko Willink]

This is not healthy, bro.

[Rana Willink]

Like. Like, I. Yeah, this isn't. This is not so. It wasn't. It wasn't, like, my behavior per se, because in my. Because I was like. I was saying this was right. Like, I was convincing myself it was right. My behavior. But my mind, I was, like, saying such negative things to myself. I was like, dude, I cannot continue to, like, be like this, or else it's going to be a freaking nightmare, you know, so.

[Jocko Willink]

And then eventually, you realized you wanted to get, like, someone to help you out through the situation.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. So basically, after I've realized I can't do this anymore, I talked to my friend, and I was like, I think I'm gonna try to, like, fix it by myself. Because I didn't want, like, same same thing. Like, since seventh grade, I hadn't said anything really, So I was like, I'm just going to watch YouTube videos about people who maybe were struggling with the same things and just, like, try to help myself. But then I still had that back and forth of like, you're being dramatic. You don't need help. Because it was in my own mind, I was like, bro, why are you, like. Why are you, like, making it more of a bigger deal than it is? So I was like, okay, this is. That's. That's sort of when I realized, like, I want to reach out so that I can, like, have someone that holds me, like, accountable or, like, helps me, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So you called me and Mom.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you're like, yo, I need. I need some help. Here's what's going on.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. I just immediately started crying. But I don't think you really remember this conversation too much.

[Jocko Willink]

I don't remember it too much. I remember. And we talked about this the other day. I was, like, a little bit confused.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because to me, you were the perfect child. You know what I mean? I mean, no, but I mean, to me, you were just awesome. You were always, like, super confident. Like, you did not. You were the. You were one of the most confident humans I'd ever known. And so when you're like, I don't feel good about myself. And I'm like, who. Who is this? You know what I mean? But luckily, also at that time, you know, we had Jordan Peterson on the podcast years before this, and I learned something from him. What I learned from him was that there's problems that people have, and there's people that know how to fix those problems. Like, I. I didn't understand that before in my life. It was Jordan Peterson, like, hanging out with him and talking. Literally, when he's on my podcast, I was like, oh. Cause he was explaining and that it was exposure therapy. He's like, oh, yeah. When someone's scared of needles, here's what you do. You put a needle in the room. You tell them that there's a needle in the room. You have them walk to the door and touch the door. And then a week later, you open the door, and they see that the needle's on the desk. And then a week later. And I was like, oh, he knows how to do this. He knows how to fix that problem. And by the way, if you're scared of this or if you have trouble talking to people, or if there's all kinds of problems that you can have in your life, and there's people that know how to fix those problems. And the way I ended up saying it, I don't know if I said it to him that time, but eventually what I told people is, like, when you have a problem with your car, you don't just, like, start.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, fiddle. You know, fiddling with it. You go to. Especially nowadays, you go to a mechanic, because in the old days, you could figure it out. Nowadays, with these new cars, you ain't figuring anything out. There's computers, there's stuff in there you can't figure out. So nowadays, you take your car, you bring in a thing. He's got a diagnostics machine. He plugs in, he goes, oh, here's the problem. And they can sort that problem out.

[Rana Willink]

And then you can use your car.

[Jocko Willink]

Then you can use your car again. And it all turns out good. So when you were talking, I was like, okay. Well, I was confused at first, but I was like, okay. Well, obviously, it's something that's like the fact that you were crying. I was like, oh, my gosh. And mom, of course, is, like, the most supportive, awesome person ever. And so we were like, cool. Do it. You know, Find someone that you can talk to to help you out. And that's what you did.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, my mom actually sent me. Like, she sent me someone that her Friend recommended, like, she went out and looked for therapists for me, and she actually found my therapist, which is nice.

[Jocko Willink]

Mom's awesome.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. She was like, this girl doesn't have enough. Doesn't isn't ticking clients right now. But she has a friend who's really awesome. And I went to the friend, and I been with her ever since.

[Jocko Willink]

And so the primary thing that she did to you is ask you questions. Is that right? Explain this to me, what she's talking to you about, because I still don't know. I've had this conversation with a lot of people. We've had it on the podcast a couple times where I was like, what do they do to you? What do they say to you?

[Rana Willink]

They don't do anything to.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, so what do they do? What do they say?

[Rana Willink]

You. So basically, you tell them, like, they. They don't know you. And this was over zoom because it was Covid and I was living in slo and she's in the area, and they basically have, like, multiple days where they're just asking you questions. It's not. They're not trying to figure anything out, or at least my. My therapist wasn't. But they just ask you questions just to get to know you, and then you start, like, pulling threads, but they're not pulling the threads. It's you. It's them asking you questions. How did that make you feel about it? And saying things out loud was like. It was all the stuff that I was telling myself in that. In my head. And when I said it out loud, I was like, dude, that's not chill. Like, that's, like, the biggest, like, help in my opinion, like, is you will convince your mind. Like, you always talk about this. You convince your mind that this is the right path. And. And I shouldn't work out today because I have all this stuff going on, right? So in my mind, it's like, I ever.

[Jocko Willink]

Your mind was the opposite. You should work out today. It doesn't matter how you feel. You need to get in there. You need to burn these extra calories. You need to do this.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, yeah, but. But you always talk about, like, excuses, making excuses for yourself. Well, I was doing that, in a sense, making everything that I was doing okay in my mind, that when I said it out loud, I was like, bro, this is like, not. Not okay. And she would, like, ask me questions, and we would change. We would change subjects. If I was crying too much, and she was like, oh, we can go to. Like, she's the nicest. But it's More just pulling out the strings. Why? Why. Why did this happen? Why do you feel like this? Why do you talk to yourself like that? Try, like, how do you think telling yourself that specific sentence, how do you think that, like, makes you feel? Or how do you think you can say that in a way that, like, is better for yourself than then negatively? You know.

[Jocko Willink]

You made. It seems like you made progress, but you were also, like, exhausted, kind of.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, well. Well, because I was, like, coming to terms with so much stuff. Like, we were talking about my childhood. We were talking about, like, all this stuff, and I was like, holy. But I knew, like, she said, it's going to be hard work. It's not going to be fixed, like, in a day. It's been since seventh grade till I was, like, 20 at the time. Yeah. So I was, like, so physically and mentally exhausted. I would, like, after therapy, I remember just laying in bed for an hour, just like, bro, like, what the heck just happened? Like, I would just be like. And even. Even to the day, to this day, I will sit in my car and just be, like, thinking about it. Just, just. It does exhaust you because they're asking you the questions. You don't want to, like, answer. You don't want to, like, say. Say it out loud. You don't, like, want to admit that you ever, like, did that to yourself. You know what I mean?

[Jocko Willink]

How long did it take before you stop wearing your calorie tracker that, like, did you do that? Was that quick? And like, holy crap, this is so jacked up. I'm taking this thing off.

[Rana Willink]

It was like, a couple of. A couple of weeks after I, like, decided, like, this is. I just want to change.

[Jocko Willink]

What about the food scale?

[Rana Willink]

The food scale. So when I tried to fix it myself, I upped my calories, but I was still tracking everything. So I was like, okay, perfect. I'll just get myself 1600 calories. That's enough. Plus, I work out. That gives me 1800. Whatever. It was fine in my head. Made sense the common theme of this, of this. But, yeah, I pretty much immediately stopped. Yeah, I pretty much immediately stopped. It was really, really hard, too. But my therapist was like, you need. Why are you doing that? Like, she would ask me questions about why I'm doing that. And I knew that I wanted to get better, so I just stopped wearing my watch, stopped tracking my food, and stopped working out as a whole because I was, like, so exhausted. And I just. Working out has such a negative, like, connotation at that point. And it sucks because I loved Working out so much. Like, my whole life, I was working out.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

And I, like, had. I had made it into such a thing of, like, negative. Like, you're gonna do this because you want to eat food later. You're gonna do this because you ate last night. You went over, so you need to do that. It was like. It was like. It was like. Because I did not like how I looked or did not like how I feel. That's why I'm gonna work out. Not because I wanted to feel healthy, wanted to feel strong, which I felt that before, but it just got to that point where I was like, this is not, like, not one part of me wanted to go. Especially not wearing the watch, especially not tracking anymore. I was like, bro, I'm just gonna chill because I've been in this. In this head ping pong for so long that I was like, it's done.

[Jocko Willink]

And then you were saying after a few weeks of that, you were like, all right, I'm going for a walk.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And that was kind of your re. Entry into the, like, doing something physically that you were like, oh, this is kind of nice.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I noticed you still go for walks.

[Rana Willink]

I do, I do. I do. Like going for walks. Yeah, I like to. I. When I. When I'm, like, cutting weight for jiu jitsu, I like to go on walks. I think it's. It's nice. It's like, I. I really liked just being outside, especially when it was Covid. That was the only time I was outside. My gym shut down or the wreck shut down. And then I stopped going to that, like, warehouse thing because I was like, I don't want to work out anymore. So then I started going on walks, and it was, like, really nice. I really liked it and listened to podcasts on the walks.

[Jocko Willink]

And what podcast did you listen to?

[Rana Willink]

Choco podcast. No, I. I listen to a variety of things. I listened. I definitely listened to Jocko podcasts. I listened to, like, Huberman, and I listened to, like, comedy podcasts as well, and just, like, murdered podcasts.

[Jocko Willink]

Just.

[Rana Willink]

Just various things and sort of get my mind off of it.

[Jocko Willink]

Then you signed up for. You started going to Headstrong, the gym up and slow. It's an awesome gym, by the way. It's a freaking awesome gym. You went there, like, now. Were you like, I'm not. I'm working out. Because I like the. Because I like to work out.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. I just wanted. Because it's kind of.

[Jocko Willink]

There's a little bit of, like, if you're an alcoholic and you're like, all right, I'm gonna quit drinking. And then you're like, you know what, though? I'm just gonna have a couple beers tonight. It seems like. You know what I mean, you could. It doesn't seem like it would be a hard road, a slippery slope to slip back down. So you must have had a really good mindset change.

[Rana Willink]

I think. I think I was like. I felt so like, free after I stopped doing all that stuff. The issue was the nighttime because I would. Like a lot of times during the day, I kept myself busy. I didn't want to like, sit and think about. Think about food, think about what I looked like. And then at night, it was like my hardest. Like, that was when I was maybe like, I would. I would say as close to that. Like, I'll just have a few beers. Like, bro, I'll just. I'll just give myself 2,000 calories. Like, I would. I. Like, that was my hardest, was falling asleep at night because I would just go through everything and I'm. I'm not following the regimen anymore. So, like, it was really difficult. But I started. I started working out. I don't really remember. I think I just started working out a couple of times a week when before I would. Was working out every day. Yeah. And just. Just doing very like, basic. Basic, like leg day squats and two other exercises. That's it. Just. Just squats and like RDls and accessory. Accessory.

[Jocko Willink]

I can't believe you weren't there for me on that one. Echo.

[Rana Willink]

What?

[Jocko Willink]

Echoes Occasionally he gets good. Hell yeah in there. Especially about something like that. So. So you're work. You start working out again, you're walking.

[Rana Willink]

When I wouldn't want to do it. I would just. I would just not.

[Jocko Willink]

That's good. You end up coming home after your sophomore year for summer. And at the end of summer, we all went to the origin Jiu jitsu camp in Maine. Did you want to go? No, I don't think anyone with my family.

[Rana Willink]

Well, that summer, Fran, I. That's what I was talking about earlier on Fran, my sister and I were going to like, nogi classes, like Thursday just to beat each other up. Like, we just thought it was fun. And then my dad texted in the family group chat, like, family, origin trip, camp, smiley face, freaking hostile.

[Jocko Willink]

Hostile freaking family right here.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And all the girls from the family went, yeah, the boy couldn't go, but. But you got there and what happened?

[Rana Willink]

Magic. I'm just kidding. I didn't do all the sessions. Ah, maybe I did. I Think I did a lot of the sessions. I'm like, I'm here. And then I was. Everyone was rolling, and, like, this person asked me to roll, and I was like, sure. And I just, like. I was like, bro, this is so fun. And I remembered stuff, even though I hadn't. I did a little bit of, like, club wrestling in college, but, like, nothing serious. That was before COVID And then I just, like, I just. It was so fun. So much fun. And I remembered stuff, and. And I. I got the sense of, like, that I didn't get when I was a kid was, like, beating someone for once. And, yeah, it was. It was. It was pretty awesome. And also just surrounded by such, like, cool coaches, and, like, it was just sick. And I was honestly kind of, like, bummed because I was like, damn, I'm like a white belt, you know? And I was, like, 20. Yeah. So. Darn it. But I came home. I went. I went back to college.

[Echo Charles]

Why darn it? Because you. Because you didn't start earlier.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, dude, this is. This is so fun. And I'm. And I, like, All the girls from the family lined up, and I was like, a white belt, and we were all white belts. I'm like. I feel like. Damn it. You know what I mean? A little bit. A little bit. But I wasn't, like. I wasn't, like, super bummed at myself. I was just like, oh, this. This is really fun.

[Jocko Willink]

Helen revoked herself to white belt, huh? Helen was a blue belch.

[Echo Charles]

Wait.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, she can't do that. She got to wear that blue belt. You don't lose a belt.

[Jocko Willink]

I. Some would agree with you, but I'm not gonna.

[Rana Willink]

She didn't want.

[Jocko Willink]

That's not my fight to have over here, bro. But I gonna do a big.

[Rana Willink]

She. We were rolling together at the camp, or we were doing the technique together, and it was super fun, and I was, like, kind of getting after it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. The thing is, Helen is, like, really athletic and also really strong. So when she was training back in day, she was, like, really good. And then she just got pregnant for, like, 10 years, and she just. And had kids. Like, she's like, you got three kids, dude. Like, you're not training when you got three kids under the age of six. Like, you're. You're under the age of five, under the age of four. So she didn't train, but she still, like. She still.

[Rana Willink]

I was, like, helping her with the moves, and I was like, oh, you're a blue belchy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, and I'm a white belchy.

[Rana Willink]

Helping you.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, well, look.

[Echo Charles]

Hey, look, I'm not gonna make a big thing out of this, but your belt is not up to you. It's not up to you. It's up to the guy who gave you the belt.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So you can't be like, hey. Just like, you can't say, hey, I'm good enough to wear a blue belt when you're still a white belt, Helen. Can't be like, you know what? I've been kind of studying up, so I think I should be a purple belt. You can't do that. You can't do it the other way either. Can't do it anyway. You know why? Because it's not up to you. Yeah, I'm gonna leave you guys with that.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I'll let you. I'll let you bring that up to hell.

[Echo Charles]

I'm not going to tell her that.

[Jocko Willink]

No.

[Echo Charles]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

So then you get back to college, and now you got a little bit of, like, the desire to train the Jiu Jitsu, and you go to Paragon Slow.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. I searched up jiu Jitsu gyms near me, clicked on, like, the first one, booked the class online, and just, like, showed up at noon in the ghee. But, yeah, and I was just training a couple. A couple of times a week.

[Jocko Willink]

One time you called me after, like, a week and you were crying.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Explain.

[Rana Willink]

So, yeah, I FaceTime my dad and all this. I. My dad was not in my ear. Like, you should go try out a jiu jitsu gym. You should look one up. Paragon's good. I was like, I looked it up. I didn't even tell you I was going to my first class. I think I called you after or something.

[Jocko Willink]

No, I think a brother paid for it over here, but that's just me.

[Rana Willink]

No, it was free. It was a free first class.

[Jocko Willink]

I was going to say it after that first one. After that. After that, invoice rolled in. I think Big Papa got. Got to call in.

[Rana Willink]

But, yeah, it was very fun. I. I just. I just, like. I honestly have always, like, loved fighting. I just think that things. Things clouded in my mind in wrestling. That's. That's all. Like, I think I really, like, did love wrestling. I just, like, had other. Other stuff in my mind that kind of. Kind of decreased my love for it. Like, at State. I feel like I, like, wasn't even present there because I was, like, worried about other stuff, you know? Like, I. I feel like this was my second, like, chance to. Because I did love fighting. So I start. So I Start doing Jiu Jitsu. I'm.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you brought that up earlier. You brought that up earlier. And I'm just gonna rehash on this. You were saying, like, even though you would complain about Jiu Jitsu, even when you were little, when you would go against someone else in class, like, you.

[Rana Willink]

Would go, yeah, 100.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, you like to fight, and you like to win. And that was evident. And then we just had some kind of a mob mentality going on. But, yeah, so that it might have gotten clouded in wrestling in your senior year because you're, like, worried about weight and calories and all that stuff. So now you show up, and now you realize you can just fight people.

[Rana Willink]

And I saw wrestling, like, as just a thing to input into my app. It wasn't even like. I was like, okay, bro, when's the hour gonna be over? So I can put down an hour of working out, you know? But when I found Jiu Jitsu again, like, I did, I didn't have the app. I didn't have a tracker. I would just go. And I was. I wouldn't even look at the clock genuinely. It would. The hour would go by so quickly. It was just like, you just wanted to keep rolling. Like, let's just stay. You know what I mean? But it's like that shift of. Of doing. Doing something because, like, for the right reasons instead of the wrong. And Jiu jitsu, like, helped me so much with that.

[Jocko Willink]

Back to the question I asked about when you called me when you were crying after, like, a week. Just. It's a good lesson for everybody.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I was crying because. No, I think I exaggerated my head that no one wanted to roll with me.

[Jocko Willink]

And she's been there for a week.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I've been there for a week. And I was like. I just. I just laughed. I was like, all the guys are picking each other. No one wants to roll with me. But no one knew me. Like, I didn't, like, introduce myself to anyone. Like, I wasn't making. I was just like, they don't want to roll with me. Even though I wasn't like, hey, my name is Raina. Can we roll? I was just, like, in the corner, like, not making eye contact, like, bro, no one wants to roll with you. Because especially I. I've heard from a lot of guys that they wait for the girl to, like, make eye contact so that you can roll, right? And I was just like, you know, not looking. Not looking at all. And I called my dad. I'm like, no one wants to roll with Me and everyone's friends and everyone during the warmups is like in their little groups. And I was just like alone and. But I didn't introduce myself to anyone. I just walked in silent, sat down and you know, that's that. But I call him. I'm like balling. I still have a picture from it. I'm just like, no one wants to roll with me. And he goes, like he said, just stick with it. Thousands of people come and go, especially in jiu jitsu. Like people sign up to try it out and then they leave. These people, these people don't want to make friends with someone that's there for one day and then dip. Although everyone at Paragon was really, really sweet and nice. It's just how it is, I guess. And then the longer I stuck around, I called my dad like a couple of weeks later. I said, I have like a friend group and I'm going to lunch with them after open mat. It was really cute because. And also it's so funny cause it's like such people that you. That I would never interact with. Like I'm in college, I'm like hanging out with people that are 20 years old, same as me. And I'm going to lunch with like this random 40 year old construction worker dude and like this other guy who's an engineer. And then you know, it's like, I swear people are like, what's going on over there? But you know, they were so awesome and like looked out for me like. And once once they knew that I was going to stick around, they brought me in like so quickly and were helping me roll with me. Like show me technique. Like it was amazing.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, it is.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You were telling me that now this was something that you were doing, where you are doing it. It's basically a non vanity exercise. You're doing it just because it's freaking fun.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, 100%. And also it helped me a lot with those with just shutting off your mind, which is not always good necessarily always to shut off your mind because you have to like confront the things that you are thinking. Like that's your brain. But for an hour. Especially when the thoughts are like not helping in any way. You're just, you're. It's just going back and forth like this is not helping me. I need to go do something that takes my mind off of it. And like lifting, it's just kind of monotonous. Like I like lifting. It just. You're still thinking about things like when you're lifting or when I was Lifting, at least. And when I was doing Jiu jitsu, like, I seriously would go out and be like, bruh. Like, what was I even, like? I. I'm like, I didn't even think about one thing that is outside of the mat. Like, I was just, like, so interested in it, and, like, wanted to learn, wanted to, like, get better, wanted to fight. Like, I just thought it was so fun, and it helped me so much with building back my relationship with exercise.

[Jocko Willink]

And you started competing, too, pretty quick.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, my friend. My friend, like, we. I started training. Like, I trained a couple days a week, and then I was training every day, and then my friend was like, should we do this competition? And we have. Yeah, Alex Tabs. He was like, let's do this competition. And I'm like, all right, let's do it. It was like Jiu Jitsu World league. I. We had to drive, like, three hours to get there or something. And it was fun. It was good.

[Jocko Willink]

How'd you do?

[Rana Willink]

Good. I. I got, like, third or second in ghee and first in no gi. It was good.

[Jocko Willink]

Even though you're training mostly ghee, at.

[Rana Willink]

That time, I was training a lot of ghee. Yeah. There was one day that was no gi. They're more of, like, a traditional school. And honestly, it was really. I look back, and I'm grateful that I trained gi, because I think if I started anywhere else and they had no GI options, I would never have gone to gi. I seriously would never have. And GI is so frustrating, especially, like, as a wrestler. And I did, like, when. When I got the. When I got the feeling to train Jiu Jitsu, it would always be no gi, like, with me and my sister. And so four days of the week, it. And open mat was all ghee. So that. That just showed that I. I was like, bro, I don't like ghee, but I'm gonna. It's like, I'm gonna do it.

[Jocko Willink]

But it's also interesting that you won no gi, even though you weren't training it well.

[Rana Willink]

I was trained. Yeah, I was. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's because you. Because you have the wrestling background and you have. You. Some of your jiu Jitsu was no geek based from bur.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When did. When was that viral video? Was that that year?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, that was at that competition.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, was at that competition.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, my first tournament back.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, my gosh.

[Rana Willink]

So. So you saw the video, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Did you see the viral video?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it's.

[Rana Willink]

So basically, it was my. It was, like, semifinals for Noi, and it was both of our first competitions, I'm pretty sure I talked to her, and I, like, locked in a choke. And I did not know. I was like, oh, she's chilling. Because it's competition. People don't tap. And I thought it wasn't secure enough. And I was just like. And she was belly down.

[Jocko Willink]

She was belly down. You had hooks in.

[Rana Willink]

I was pretty and.

[Jocko Willink]

But she was flattened and you had your hooks in.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. So.

[Jocko Willink]

Which was weird about that. The reason that's important is because her legs weren't like, laying on the ground limp because of your legs being in there. Her legs look like she was, like, active. But you put her to sleep, and the ref didn't know.

[Rana Willink]

The ref. The ref was standing up, and I didn't. I, like, didn't really know what to do. I. I definitely should have let go, but I was so traumatized by it after.

[Jocko Willink]

Hold on. Also, just real quick. Her, the coaches, or. I don't know if it's a coach, but people were also. While she was unconscious, because once you watch the video, you're like, oh, she's asleep right there.

[Rana Willink]

I was looking up at the ref like.

[Jocko Willink]

But coaches were like, run of coaches. But people on her side, on her. Her supporters were like, you know, grab the hand, Grab the hand.

[Rana Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So they're. So you hearing people coaching her, that's another indicator to you. She's like, okay, we'll just hang on. And finally her coach realized what was happening and ran in and stopped it.

[Rana Willink]

Pushed me off of her. The ref didn't stop the match.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, the coach did, but.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, so they, like, flipped her over and she was like, purple.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So the coach came in, finally broke it up, and then, you know, it kind of went viral because you have a person that gets choked out, and it's clear that the ref was. And you. You both wore white belts.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, the. The ref eventually figured out, but. Or, sorry, the coach came in and stopped it. So there was a. The reason it went viral was because.

[Rana Willink]

The ref didn't stop it.

[Jocko Willink]

The ref not stopped. Everyone was. Yeah. And. Yeah. And the coach wasn't mad at you at all? No, he was mad at the ref. Um, so. Yeah. And you called me and you were all bummed out and, like, all sad and, like, as you just said, quote unquote, traumatized.

[Rana Willink]

Well, I. In the moment. In the moment, I, like, it was. It was really, like, scary. I'd never. I never put anyone out before.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Rana Willink]

You know, and I was, like, squeezing that choke, too. Like, it was like. No.

[Jocko Willink]

And when you put a choke on. When you put anything on, because you're.

[Rana Willink]

Like a little kid can.

[Jocko Willink]

That's the crazy thing. I tell people this when you're learning, like you teach someone that's just learning Jiu Jitsu, the rear naked choke. It's like, now you can kill someone.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And they're all freaked out. But you know what's even crazier than that? Take a steak knife. You can kill someone just as easy with a steak knife. Just walk up and stick it in their freaking neck. They're going to die. But people get all freaked out when there's really, like, every time you start up your car, you can kill somebody. Life is not, you know, that. That robust and sturdy that you can survive a bunch of things. So. Well, I remember you called me and I was. I had to, you know, be understanding. But at the same time, I said, hey, there's 10 people that get choked out at every jiu jitsu tournament. 10 people go to sleep. 10 people are going to sleep. I said, no one's gonna care about this. I go. Other than the ref. I go to be. Some people watch it, some people make comments, but whatever, don't worry about it. And so I think that might have helped a little bit. What really helped you is you went to class on Monday because I caught. I called you after you left class on Monday.

[Rana Willink]

I didn't even want to train. Like, I was embarrassed. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

And yeah, I went to class and they were like, good job.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, good job. They weren't even like, good job. No, there's like, hey, good job at the tournament. I heard you. You won.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

She's like, oh, yes. You didn't hear that I choked someone out? No, we don't care about any of that.

[Rana Willink]

And the girl's good, by the way. I, like, messaged her and her coach and, like, apologize, and they were like, you don't we understand?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. That girl seemed chill.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, she was really nice.

[Jocko Willink]

And then you just kept competing. You've been competing, competing, and you're kind of wrapping up college. But what I liked is right towards the end of college, you learned one thing. Very important, very important thing. And that was your dad. Me. Despite maybe not approaching it in the best way, I was actually right. And the way that I was right was as part, you were a nutrition science major, but you also had a minor in what?

[Rana Willink]

Exercise and Sports Studies.

[Jocko Willink]

Exercise and Sports studies. And for one of those classes, you had to do a DECA scan.

[Rana Willink]

Dexa.

[Jocko Willink]

DEXA scan. And that is. It basically checks your. Your body, your bone density, your muscle density, and it looks at you, like, internally and sees what you're constructed of. And you got it done. You got it done. And you sent me the image. The image, because your actual density was off. It was the. It was the highest possible point on the chart. Like, there was no one else there. It was 99.99. 99.99 percentile of humans is what you are made of.

[Echo Charles]

There you go.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's. I was like, you sent me that. I was like, I told you I was right. I was right. Like, you are not normal.

[Rana Willink]

Dense.

[Jocko Willink]

You are dense. Like, it's actually called a densitometry. That's what it's called, densitometry, and it measures how dense you are. And that's why when you were a little kid, I would pick you up and be like, is this girl made of metal? Because she's heavy? And of course, I recognize now that that is not the best wording to use, especially for a girl. And this is. You were real little. But it's funny because I, you know, you ever heard Joe Rogan tell the story about Yoel Romero? So, yo, Yoel Romero got his. He got punched in the head. I think he broke his orbital bone. And they sent him to the hospital and they did X rays, and some doctor calls, calls Dana White or Joe Rogan or something and is like, yo, where did you find this guy? And they're like, what do you mean? They're like, where is he from? What? This is not normal. And they said, what's. What's not normal? They X rayed him, and the tendons in his eyes were like three times the size of a normal human. And that's why that guy is just a maniac, right? I mean, he's just. He's built. Literally built different. He's built different. And that's. That's what you are. You're. You're actually scientifically built different. It's a weird genetic thing. And it's like some things, Some things genetic. You can take a little bit of genetic, and you can also add some conditioning. Like. Like cold water, right? Like, we were. We were talking earlier about, like, dunking your heads, and I would have contests to see who could dunk your heads. But there's some people that are naturally going to be able to handle the cold better than other people. You got to see this in SEAL training. If you have a guy that's like, maybe he's from Florida, maybe he's like ripped, like shredded. He's gonna have a hard time in the cold. Then you get some guy from Nebraska, and he's well marbled, and he's just like, whatever, dude, I'll get in that cold. But you can also. But then you can also get used to it. You can, you can. You can increase your ability to handle cold water. Like, and you guys were always doing that. I remember when you were little kids, we were at Yosemite one time. And the water in Yosemite, coming out of the river Echo Charles. It's coming from, you know, ice, and it's. But it's flowing down, so it's. It's not frozen anymore, but it's 43 degrees, something like that. And so I had a contest with the kids who can stay in the longest. And her and her brother were in there. And this, this is cold water. This is hypothermia water. They. And whoever could stay in the longest would get an ice cream. My kids would do freaking anything for an ice cream.

[Echo Charles]

Makes sense.

[Jocko Willink]

So I put them in there, and they're in there. Probably 42 degree water is freaking cold. Yeah. And they're just neck deep. Neck deep. Just looking at me. 30 minutes I'm looking at them, waiting for one of them to dor. Neither one of them was quitting. And so. And I look, I like get in and look at their lips. They're. Both. Their lips are blue. All their lips are blue. And I just gave them both an ice cream cone.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, good idea.

[Jocko Willink]

But see, there's a level of the. Part of that's genetic. Part of it's just mental will.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And part of it is conditioning. But like, you, your bone dense, your density as a human, that's different. That's like. That's like a genetic thing. And that's what, you know, Rogan. I was told Rogan, because you actually ran and told me that he had something he, like, said one time, I want a girl who can help me move a couch. So I sent him that thing I said, I actually sent him the, the, the graph. And I'm like, I circled it with red because you. If you didn't circle it with red, it's so far off the chart you wouldn't see it.

[Rana Willink]

It's on the border.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. There's like.

[Rana Willink]

I'm not even kidding.

[Jocko Willink]

The edge of the chart there it is. Like, there's no one else there.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so I circled it and I explained it to him and I told him, I said, hey, you know, you. You Say, you know, my daughter said, you. You want a girl who can help you move a couch? And I told him, I'm like, dude, if you need a couch moved, like, this girl's got it. Solo. Solo activities. But, you know, the thing is, though, is it's. It's just interesting because you have this special, you know, genetic gift. And because of society and because of me and. And just like you were. You were at a. You were embarrassed of this gift that you had. You know what I mean? And that's just terrible. So I'm glad that wrestling and jiu jitsu has brought it to a point where you recognize the glory of it.

[Rana Willink]

But it's not just genetics, though, because we've been lifting since we were like, so young. And lifting we learned in, like, college was like, helps your bones get so, so strong. And I think, like, lifting from such a young age and really, like, implementing that since we were, what, in elementary school, you would make us get up and do workouts in the morning before school, I think.

[Jocko Willink]

I think all children could benefit from kettlebells in the morning. There you go. I remember I would have, like, these metcon set up, sir. And they would be carrying the kettlebells up the alley, like racing and then kettlebell swings, pull ups. Sprawls was a real big one. Sprawls was an early form of the burpee.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, but. Or burpees themselves. But I would always have my kids sprawling. Sprawl, sprawl, sprawl. Here's a. Here's a. A very solid workout for your children. Every minute on the minute. Five burpees.

[Rana Willink]

I thought it was five pull up. Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

No, five burpees and then max pull ups or five burpees. Max dips or five burpees Max. Some other. You can pick any other exercise, but, you know, five burpees takes depending. You know, 15 to 30 seconds, depending on how hard your child is working.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And how much you need to discipline them. But then they have 30 seconds. But it's. It's a crushing way to.

[Rana Willink]

To work out, especially when your two siblings are doing it with you and you. They did five pull ups, and so you want to do a little bit more than them.

[Jocko Willink]

So that was good. But that's, That's. It was. It was kind of redeeming. When I saw that chart, bro, I was very excited about it. I was like. Because it seemed like, it seems so obvious. Ideas seemed real. And now it's like, well, there you go.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Science.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Factual Factual. And then from there, when you graduated college, then it was time to put that gift to use. Now you're down here in. In San Diego. You work at Victory MMA and Fitness. You teach Jiu Jitsu, you train Jiu Jitsu. You train primarily at Victory MMA and Legion. Legion ajj. Yes, sir. Sorry about that. They're Keenan and Miha.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, Gotta differentiate.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I gotta differentiate that one. What. What do you. What's your schedule like when you wake up in the morning?

[Rana Willink]

Jiu Jitsu? All the. All the time, every day. Yeah. I. I started training at Legion when Victory had the fire in it and there was nowhere to train. I trained. I trained in my friend's garage, which. Who had mats and would train in the morning, but that was at 6am and the rest of the day I was like. I didn't have a job because the gym burned down. They were finding a temporary location and I still wanted to compete. And I really had never tried out another gym in San Diego because Victory is here.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

And I tried out a class at Legion because my dad. Well, you. Yeah, me, who is also my dad, is friends with Sloan and Mihaw and Keenan. He would train with them. Cross train. And I started taking Sloan's classes and J. Flo's classes and training with Paige, who is insanely good at Jiu Jitsu. And now that there's a temporary location, I started cross training. And it's been amazing. I have such good training partners and coaches at Victory and at Legion, so it's good. Can't complain. And then I love teaching the kids. It's so amazing. Yeah. And my schedule. Yeah, just train Jiu Jitsu in the morning, come home, eat breakfast, go train Jiu Jitsu again, Do J Flows classes twice a week. Get up, have a private with Paige and J Flow and just lift as much as I can and. Yeah, teach the kids.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, teaching kids. Coaching kids. You're always at tournaments coaching kids. Are you. Are you in the sauna ice bath game?

[Rana Willink]

Not really.

[Jocko Willink]

Are you more. Well, you definitely do them sometimes, but you're just like a weekend warrior when it comes to those things or something.

[Rana Willink]

In the beginning, I was like, super into it.

[Jocko Willink]

Into what part?

[Rana Willink]

Into the sauna ice bath. I just slackened, bro.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Rana Willink]

I don't know, but I like.

[Jocko Willink]

Doesn't it make you feel good?

[Rana Willink]

It. It does, but, like, I don't know. The day is long of training. I don't.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like you feel like it gives you recovery, though.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. What I was going to say was when I started wrestling again with J Flow is basically only wrestling. And I hadn't really. I really did a lot of Jiu Jitsu on the ground. I. In my. In Paragon, we really didn't wrestle that often. And I didn't really wrestle that much, like since high school. And when I started taking J Flows classes, it was a gut check. Straight rounds on the feet, no pulling guard. Lots of times we're just doing like wrestling rounds. Just get your two points come back up and I. My like middle back just from like my stance and holding my head up and getting my head like pushed down. Getting, getting slammed. Getting like judo throne in the most elegant way, bro. My middle back was really, like, really hurting. And the sauna, that's when I started implementing the sauna. Yeah, a lot. Doing, doing a stretch stretching routine in the sauna for like a couple of weeks. And that, that like helped so much. But yeah, just, just training Jiu Jitsu and lifting.

[Jocko Willink]

What are you eating?

[Rana Willink]

Eating good?

[Jocko Willink]

Mm.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, there's no, there's no, like, I don't follow a strict diet or anything. There's no like, specific animal based, like, heat. I don't do any of that. Just. I do eat red meat though. Lots of it. And yeah, just. Just trying to get protein in in the morning. Like, I, I normally will have like a milk or protein pancakes or something of that sort. Just. Just because I have heinous. I probably just trained heinously and then I have heinous training after.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I can confirm that you drink a lot of freaking milk in our house.

[Rana Willink]

I like, I like this. I like making like smoothies. Like the powder.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So a few months ago, I had some people visit down here in San Diego. They were making a movie called Way of the Warrior Kid. And obviously in the movie Way of the Warrior Kid, there's going to be kids that are doing Jiu jitsu. And the producer and the director or one of the producers and the director were like, hey, do you know anyone that could like, help us with training the kids up in Jiu jitsu? And this is MCG and Ben Everard. And they're like, hey, do you know, do you have anyone that could help us train the kids Jiu jitsu? And I said, I think I might have the ultimate person for that. So you came up and helped out training these two kids, Avatars and Jude Hill, who play Mark and Nora in the movie Way of the Warrior Kid. And you trained, you came up and trained them in Jiu jitsu. How did you like that?

[Rana Willink]

It was so, so, so fun. It was so last minute because you were like, we gotta check on the budget for the movie and stuff. And I was like, all right. I'm. I teach kids jiu jitsu. Like, I will try to get it covered for as many weeks as I can. And so I went. I went up. I think you told me, like, Saturday.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

And I went up on, like, Monday.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

And it was so awesome. And it was interesting because normally Jiu jitsu is such a long journey. I mean, think about my jiu Jitsu journey. It's been, like, over a decade.

[Jocko Willink]

You just got your purple belt too, by the way.

[Rana Willink]

Hey, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Purple Belchy. Okay.

[Rana Willink]

And so it was gonna be sort of different because with the kids classes, you only want to teach one or two moves a day because, bro, everyone just wants to roll. And also, they're not retaining. Like, even I can't. Like, even I can't pay attention to more than a couple moves in the. In a jiu jitsu class. So. But for this one, it wasn't like we had all this time to teach them jiu jitsu. And the AVA had to be, like, higher rank in the movie. So we had, like, three hours a day of just straight up technique. And they were. They were troopers. For real. It can be. So to make it look technical and good. And I know that that was your vision for the Way of the Warrior Kid. We didn't want it to look, like, silly, like, martial art, like, whatever. So I was. It was a cool challenge for me because it's. It's different from teaching the kids at Victory. It was like, we have to do this. And I. I wanted them to understand that. Understand Jiu Jitsu. Because we did have some impromptu scenes where they were like, okay, do. Do something. And I was like, oh. And we thank. Thankfully, we went over a bunch of stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

That we hadn't planned on putting.

[Jocko Willink]

You were a fight coordinator for sure.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

What about even before we started filming? You came up and when you were helping, because you were right up with me. You were, like, sitting in meetings. You were in casting meetings, and with me and MCG and Ben and Mary just, like, looking at people. Like, wasn't that.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you also were there when we are going through the script line by line. Were you there for that?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, I was.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So you're there. That was right when I got there, line by line. And you could see how this all comes to fruition, as you said, like. Like the. All the things that went into it that had to be awesome to watch.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, it was. It was honestly crazy, the whole. Because when I went, I didn't know the progress of the movie yet. So, like, having it caught, like, the whole floor was all for Warrior Kid. And I have a building.

[Jocko Willink]

She's saying, like, this entire floor of.

[Rana Willink]

This building, and it's a bunch of people, too. It's not. It's not. I. I fully was like, it's going to be a couple of dudes. Like, I was like, all right, let's see what. Let's see what's going to happen. But this guy comes up to dad and he's like. Has the exact replica of his, like, glasses. And I'm like, what? And he's like, did I get this part right? And he faded them. Yeah, and he made them. And I was like, bro. And then he pulls out his watches, and I'm like, dude, what is going on? This is crazy. That's his. That was his job. And he killed it. Yeah. And it was so, like, technical. But what he was pointing out was like, bro, they're. They're worth. They're like. They're focusing on that little thing. That's crazy. Like, that must be. That must be legit.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

So then I sat in on one of the script readings, and it was so good. The. The director, McGee. I listened to the Warrior Kid. I was like, all right. But he would stand up in every scene. He would stand up, say, all right, Taco, stand up with me so we can act this out. And I was literally like, bro, this is so good. It was crazy. And that was when it sort of clicked to me, like, this is not just gonna be a movie about. I, like, I got bullied and did jiu jitsu. It was like, there's so many more elements to it that are in the movie and thought by the writers. And it's so, like, elaborate, and it's amazing. And the set was crazy, too. Like, the amount of hands needed on that set was wild and so much fun. But coaching the kids was really cool. It was the first time doing jiu jitsu, and their parents were watching, like, what the heck is going on? Because we. I was like, okay, these are the four positions. I didn't really. Because it's what I'm surrounded by all the time. And I train with guys, I train with girls. It literally, like, I don't. I don't pay much attention, as I, like, should to things like that, to people.

[Jocko Willink]

Maybe feeling uncomfortable is just. We don't think. Think of it as this. The Most. The most contact sport that there is, period. End of story. There is no sport that's more close contact than Jiu Jitsu. It's just the most close contact. And I knew that. So as we were introducing, like, both Jude and Ava's mom are there, and I'm like, hey, this thing we're about to do is real. A lot of close conf. Be very, very.

[Rana Willink]

And I'm almost happy. I didn't really think about it. You acted. I was literally just acting like I was coaching victory. This is so fun, making them so comfortable, which was like, my top priority, because I just wanted. I wanted them to work, like, well together, because same thing. Having someone that you have your partner, that's like, that's such a key thing. And they worked so well together. What I was going to say was, oh. When I first started training Jiu Jitsu, I would be, like, confused about women's classes. I would be confused about, like, separate classes because I was like, what do you mean? Like, I. I didn't. Because I grew up around it. I literally grew up, like, having freaking.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Jiu Jitsu breathing in my ear. Like, I was like, all right. And then I wrestled, and I was confused. I was like, why?

[Jocko Willink]

And.

[Rana Willink]

And now when I start with girls, they say I'm. I. Like, when they grab my wrist, I'm like, bro, you gotta grab my wrist. This isn't like, this. You need to put your weight on me. I'll be fine. But this is what I realized about Jiu Jitsu for women is, like, that is one of the main concerns. And I never even really put. If I'm grabbing your wrist, bro, it's going to be, like, with. But, like, I'm not gonna let go, you know? But, like, teaching. I understand the girls class now because.

[Jocko Willink]

Girls. You mean girls and women. Women class.

[Rana Willink]

Women. Yeah. And I understand it to, like, a level where I did. I seriously was like, why would they do that? And now I understand. Talking to so many girls that first started Jiu Jitsu, just having, like, just learning how to put your weight on someone is so foreign to a lot of women that it feels so, like, weird. And, like, I understand that that would be weird in, like, a class if you've never done it before. So that. That's one thing that I try to, like, try to help with. Like, especially the girls and in classes is, like, even if. Even if they're paired with the guys, just, like, making them comfortable, being like, bro, they're gonna be fine. They're tough. You can Put your weight on them.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, I even. I even talk about that from a self defense perspective is if. If you've never had someone freaking grab.

[Rana Willink]

Onto you, it's gonna be scary.

[Jocko Willink]

There's three seconds to five seconds to maybe even you don't snap out of it. Of shock, of just like. Like you're just not used to it.

[Rana Willink]

Even. Even when I'm rolling now and I've trained like jiu jitsu and wrestling. If I can't get a dude off of me, inside control. I like freak out. And I'm like, I'm the. I'm like so seasoned that it would. You wouldn't think it would, but I start. I'm like, dude, this is like crazy. I like simply can't get him off of me. And that's scary.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I feel that way sometimes too, to be honest with you.

[Echo Charles]

That's a normal.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, Mc G. Yeah. What the crazy thing is. So McGee, he like came down here like, and met me and was like. This is what I realized McGee had. McGee had the vision in his head. Like he could see. Cuz I can't see a movie in my head. I can see a jiu jitsu move in my head. I can see an assault on a target in my head. I can see surfing a wave in my head, but I can't see a movie in my head because I've never done that before. But McGee, he sees it. He could see it.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so that's what I realized. He was. When he was down here talking to me, he was. He was trying to explain to me what he could see. And I was like, I. Even then it'd be like me trying to explain to someone that didn't surf, like, no. And then. And then the curls, like the lip starts to come over your head and.

[Rana Willink]

You'Re like, can you see it? And you're like, if you surf, you.

[Jocko Willink]

Can see it, but if you don't surf, you're just like, all right, dude. And I didn't realize it until like it was probably what was. While we were filming, we were shooting a scene and I remembered him describing this to me. And I was like, oh, McG saw this in his head. When he read the script, he saw what this would and could look like. And I was like, oh. And he has this for the whole movie? Yeah, the whole thing. Not to. Not every single little detail. Because as you see when we're up there, we're flexing and we're making moves and we're making changes and all that Stuff's cool. But he had the. The framework and some of the scenes, the specifics in his head of, like, I know what this is supposed to look like, and that's what. And that's what we got to do. Jude and Ava, when you met them, were you like. Because I was like, oh, my gosh. They're like the. Oh, yeah, they're so good for the roles.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. And they were so. They were so, like, eager to learn something new and just jumping right into it because we didn't have much time.

[Jocko Willink]

And I think they may have been the most willing and actively positive students I've ever seen. Like, they like to be that passionate about wanting to learn is. I get it. But I've never seen a kid that realizes, oh, I'm gonna have to be doing this in a very short period of time. I need to pay attention. I need to figure this out. Wait, show me that again. How does that work? They were both so into it and worked so hard to make it happen. And then how did you feel in the filming? Because you're in the movie. Hell, yeah.

[Rana Willink]

It was. It was like, crazy. We. The first day, I think we filmed one scene, like, the whole time.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Just for hours and hours, and we were just, like, chilling there.

[Jocko Willink]

Do you remember what scene it was?

[Rana Willink]

It was. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

What was it? I don't. I don't remember.

[Rana Willink]

It was when he takes his socks off.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Anyway, he kept having to put.

[Jocko Willink]

Because he had to put his socks over and over again.

[Rana Willink]

But it was really cool because when we were training, so. So you learn moves of jiu jitsu, and then. But you can tell when. Not when. Someone hasn't, like, rolled before because it's very stagnant trying to do the move. But when we practiced, like, I was, like, past her guard, and after this was, like, day two or day three, and they were, like, going for it, looking like kids that were in my class. And I think that was a key element to. It wasn't just like, here's a move, here's a move, here's a move. Because, you know, that's.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's not the jiu Jitsu.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, that's what. That's what J flow says. Movement over moves.

[Jocko Willink]

JF Flow.

[Rana Willink]

I loaded. But, yeah, so they. I taught them moves, but they knew that they had to have be off balance to do the scissor sweep. They weren't just trying to do it. Like Rana. Coach Rana told me to do this move, and I have to.

[Jocko Willink]

Coach Rana told me right foot Here, left arm there. Pull this here.

[Rana Willink]

They were doing both sides. They were pulling on the collar. They were, like, making their weight go forward, which was so crazy, because it genuinely like their scene where they're rolling. Looks good.

[Jocko Willink]

That looks great. Echo. Charles, what was your assessment of. Because you are also in the movie, and you brought a lot of excellence and legitimacy to the scene, apparently, as was noted by Mick G himself.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, sir. Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Was it what you expected? Because you. You obviously have a much heavier background in film, and so you've done this before. What surprised you about the whole thing?

[Echo Charles]

Well, a few things. What it takes to get everything going. I was impressed with how efficient it was and how it all worked together, but I think that varies from set to set. The recreation of the set was very impressive. There was a time. I don't know if you were in the same boat, Rana, where I was like, man, this is kind of cool this time of day where the sun is coming in perfect right now with the mist and, like, bro, this is going to look good on film. I remember thinking that. And then, like, hours pass. I'm like, bro, we better hurry up, because when this sun starts to, you know, like, switch position, whatever, we're going to kind of lose this look. But I'm like, whatever. These are professionals. They know what they're doing. They're going to hurry up. They're not hurrying. They're, like, hours past. I'm like, bro, the sun is in the same exact spot. And then I realized that these were like, actually, it's not the sun. They had blocked the sun. Actually, these are, like, actual lights.

[Jocko Willink]

They had blocked the street.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And outside at the angle that the sun would be appropriate for that time of day, that they want it to look that way. That's the sun.

[Rana Willink]

It might look like freaking giant to me.

[Echo Charles]

It was the sun.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

It was 100. I'm 46 years old. I know what the sun looks like. I'm not some kid who's, like, gets tricked by some light or whatever. But that was good. The. I remember one very specific time time where we're filming the. In the. In the jiu jitsu class. And, you know, they're talking and all this stuff. And, you know, me and my family, we know the work in books. We read that thing, like, multiple. And so we know the lines. I know the lines or whatever. And to see real professional actors with a scene with, you know, and to see it, like, come to life. I remembered, like, getting, like, chicken skin. Yeah. It's like, dang, man. These guys are nailing it right now. And then you look on the monitor.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, because even better.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, better. Even. So, yeah, in the moment, you're like, man, this is such a cool production. Like, this is official. We're good. We're good to go. Then you see it on the model, and you're, like, blown away, man, just because. Yeah, it's like a whole nother. Whole nother level up, you know, as far as the production. So that was another one. And, yeah, just how, like. Okay, so you might not know this about me, but I've been in an acting scenario before. I've been in front of the camera before. Whatever, Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And you know how, like, was this dear Movie?

[Echo Charles]

Well, many, many different times. I'm just saying here on the podcast, I know how it is when the cameras are rolling.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, okay.

[Echo Charles]

All right. But when you see, like, actual. When you see actual professional actors just doing, like, their thing, you're like, oh, man, there's, like, levels to the whole deal, you know? So that was very impressive. And yeah, yeah, from. From. And also, too, like, the. The humility of, like, the professionals on the. On set, we'll say, like, that was. That was impressive as well.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And they made. Unfortunately, we couldn't film in the actual Victory MMA because of the fire, so we made Legacy mma, which is a gym up there. They made it into a victory and brought all the branding in there, and it's freaking amazing. That was a good age.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, like, it's impressive. Aven Jude wrote me notes about Urana. Ava said, hey, Coach Rana, I hope you're doing great. I'm so proud of your accomplishments in Jiu Jitsu right now. I watch how amazing you are on Instagram. You're such an amazing coach in martial artists. I look up to you so much, and I'm thinking about training in Jiu Jitsu when I get back home. All thanks to you and my incredible Warrior Kid experience. I know you're doing such great things. Things. And I really miss you. And I do hope we get the chance to train together again, because I truly learned a lot from you, and I had a blast. You're so inspiring and motivating with a heart of gold, which is what I hope to do for all the Noras out there through our movie, Way of the Warrior Kid. See you soon, Coach. I love you, and I'm so honored to know you.

[Rana Willink]

A.

[Jocko Willink]

And Jude wrote this. Rana. Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point X. That's four exclamation points. And he starts off with this. You are seriously the coolest person I know. Now, I might have to talk to him about that because, I mean, I.

[Rana Willink]

Guess I think you guys met before that too.

[Jocko Willink]

He said, you are seriously the coolest person I know. Your hard work and dedication to Jiu Jitsu is unmatched by anyone. Even just being around you is empowering. Those few weeks we spent together training will never be forgotten. I started off knowing absolutely nothing about Jiu Jitsu. You not only taught me the fundamentals and showed me how to look good on camera, but you also inspired me to continue my training off camera back home in Florida. Plus, you are literally the original warrior kid, period. Love, Jude. So you got some fans from the movie. You also got some fans from the assembly, the Echelon Front women's assembly. So what happened? Was it last year you went and taught Jiu Jitsu, right?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. So Assembly 01, they asked me and Katie to help with the Jiu Jitsu. We didn't. We honestly did not know how many women were going to show up to the Jiu Jitsu part. And it's the last part of the event too, so we were kind of like.

[Jocko Willink]

So real quick, the assembly is a women's leadership conference that's run by Jamie Cochran and the rest of the team at Echelon Front. But it's four women and it's. We've. There's been two of them. And yeah, so it's, it's been hugely successful and everyone's having a great time, but it's. It's a. It's similar to the Muster, except for the Muster is co ed and Jamie wanted to create something just for women. And actually it was Jiu Jitsu that made me realize why. Because I used to not understand why. Same as you. I used to be like, why would you have women and men and women's class, it's all the same. But there's a barrier to overcome in walking on the mat as a woman when there's a bunch of freaking sweaty dudes there. Well, it's similar thing with leadership. Like, oh, they want to hear about leadership perspective. Not from me, but from other women. Another woman. Yeah, or other women. So that's essentially. Jamie explained that to me. I was like, hey, Roger that. Go for it. So it's been awesome. But at the Muster, we do Jiu Jitsu the second night, the last night. And so Jamie's like, we'll do it too. So Katie, who works at Echelon Front, is A brown belchy. And you are going to teach Jiu Jitsu. So. But then you ended up like getting all crazy.

[Rana Willink]

So this is the thing. I didn't get crazy, but I was super, super excited to teach the Jiu Jitsu. But Jamie comes up to us and said, hey, I'm just going to ask you, like, how you got into Jiu Jitsu or whatever, what have you. Just a little intro. And the assembly was like, this was. When was that? Last year. So last year I was like, like on my little healing journey, you know, and only. Only really spoke about it. My healing journey with like my family and my like closest friends. But then I got this feeling inside. Like, I feel like if I am just like, oh, how did I get into Jiu Jitsu? My dad didn't. My dad wanted me to do it, but I didn't like it. But then I came back to it. Like it's something felt like not fully true about like being so chill about it because it wasn't that like chill of an experience back to Jiu Jitsu. And so other people were, were like being very vulnerable at the assembly. And I'm not, I'm not one for vulnerability. I'd never like said anything to anyone, Random people especially. So I. The night before the Jiu Jitsu, so night one of the assembly, I'm like, I'm going to at least share a little bit, like more than the bare bones of like what happened about me training Jiu Jitsu. Then I started coming up with things to say and I just like lost it. Like, I just cried and I went into the shower and like sobbed. Snot, like coming out of my nose. Like, just sobbing, not even like a tear. It was just like sobbing. I was like, how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna say all this stuff? And I'm not telling anyone I'm doing that. So it's just gonna be kind of like. And I didn't want to cry that day, the day I did it. But I was like, it's gonna happen. Like, I can't if I'm talking about such a sub sensitive subject. I feel like the first time I share it, like the first time those words are coming out of my mouth. It's gonna be so hard to not like I feel like now I feel more comfortable talking about it. But in that moment I was like, bro. But I just felt like I wanted to share a little bit more. So that that night I. I'm like shaking the. Then the day after, they're like, this is Rana. Or, like, they said, introduce yourself. I said, my name is Rana, and Jiu Jitsu and I have a very long relationship. And I just, like, got very. I got more personal than, like, I ever had gotten with, like, random people or, like, someone that's not very close to me. And it felt, like, so amazing to share it. And there were 90% of the girls. It was their first time training Jiu Jitsu. I didn't want to stand up there and sort of. I think it would have been fine if I just kind of was like, yeah, you know, it wasn't for me. And then it was. It would have been fine. It's just like, I wanted to be like, they're trying something new. Like, I. This is my. Like, I want to go try something new. New. And then everyone was sobbing in the crowd, by the way. Got the tear jerkers. But then after, I just remember, like, bawling. I was like, I can't believe I did that. And it felt really good. I told my therapist, and she's like, now you're like. And I got a bunch of dms. Like, you helped me so much. It was very cute. And then. Or like, parents, moms that have daughters. And then I was like, wow, this. Even though I didn't want to do it at all, and even I didn't even want to tell my own parents about what was going on, I just was like, I. If I can help someone, then I guess I'll share, like, something that I don't want to talk about, you know, so. And now I'm here.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And you almost made it through the whole podcast without crying.

[Rana Willink]

I know.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, I know it's going to help out a lot of people, and especially even from both ends, not only from, like, a daughter and. But also from the parents, like, from my perspective and, like, just how things that I did and things that I didn't do, that I just was just unintentionally doing stuff that wasn't the best way to handle things, you know? And so, you know, I think it'll be helpful for both ends of the spectrum, and hopefully it'll just make everyone train Jiu Jitsu.

[Rana Willink]

Hopefully.

[Jocko Willink]

Boja, you even got Echo Charles over here. He's getting teared up. Come on now.

[Rana Willink]

And then the year later, I. Jamie messaged me. He said, would you like to do an interview on the assembly? Like, assembly number two? And I was like, oh, gosh, I already went through the first time. And then I was like. I had that same feeling of, like, I went through all this. And then I want to use it to, like, I'm like, who I am today because I went through it. And I would like to share to help people because I don't want to go up on like, a stage and like, say how I struggled. No one wants to do that. But if. If it can help someone, then, like, I'll. That's fine with me. I'll take one for the team.

[Jocko Willink]

Did Jamie ask you, like, did she set you up for the same story? Basically, yeah.

[Rana Willink]

It was, it was. It was like, how. It was basically my relationship with, like, confidence and. And jiu jitsu and. And doing. And not even just jujitsu, just doing something that you're, like, doing something for yourself that will help you.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's another thing. Like, even when you, like. Again, from my perspective, dude, you were on fire, like, with confidence as a kid.

[Rana Willink]

I, like, wasn't, though.

[Jocko Willink]

No, I know. That's. That's. This is a warning. This is like a. Or at least, yeah, it's a warning. Like, from my perspective, dude, you. I would see you in a crowd, I would see you with your friends. You were like, very dynamic personality, and you're a funniest kid and all that stuff. You did awesome in school. Like, everything was. Looked so awesome. And I never had any indication that you were not the most confident person imaginable. And yeah, I didn't, you know, just. I didn't know. And again, that's a warning to everybody. You know, like, as much as you think you might know what's going on with your kids, there's going to be some things that you might have to sort of pry into a little bit or ask better questions and build a better relationship because nobody wants to, you know, nobody wants to, like, say what's going on or at least a lot of times people don't want to say what's.

[Rana Willink]

What's bad, especially if you don't think it's that bad in your head too. And it was like, easy for me because I. Because I was very, like, loud and funny in high school. And it was like, that's such an easy, like, cover up. If you start getting quiet, then it's like, bro, what's wrong with you? And it was just like, I liked it that way. I just didn't. I knew that if there was some other tinkering that I wasn't gonna have, like, full say in what I did. So I was just like, I'm just gonna stay, like, loud. No one, no one, like, even questioned it really except one time my teacher was like, girl, are you good? I was like, yeah, I'm just cutting weight. And my coach, my teacher was like, okay, let me know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And again, that's like the perfect cover up, right? It's like the perfect, perfect cover up. I just haven't.

[Rana Willink]

And he was a wrestler, too. Mike. My coach, Mr. Campagnone. Oh, yeah, King.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah, he's a great teacher. But yes, this is everything that you're saying. And even. Actually I was. As I was saying it, like, everything that you were. It's not like, oh, I found a freaking crack pipe in my daughter's dorm room. What's like, oh, I found a food scale in my daughter's dorm room. Well, of course you did. She's a food scientist. She's going to college, and she's healthy. Like, just think about, like, it's not like I found a empty bottle of vodka crammed behind her bed. No, instead I found rice cakes. You know what I mean? And like a calorie. Oh, she has. What's a bad app that you could have on your phone? Like a dating app or something? Like, oh, my daughter has this dating app on her phone. Match.com. she's got hinge. Like, there's must be something wrong. No, it's like, oh, she has a. A health food tracker.

[Rana Willink]

Like, health.

[Jocko Willink]

Like everything in. In that category from. From. From the surface level and even like one level, maybe even two levels deep is all good to go. It's all good to go. And that's just a bizarre thing. Even like, oh, your daughter's. Your daughter's really exercising a lot. Of course she is.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Hell yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Hell yeah, she is. Of course she is. It's my daughter.

[Rana Willink]

That's totally fine. Yeah. Exercise a lot. But you can make it cycle these things. It's like, these things can not. Can have. Not a negative thing as well. It's like if. If you. If this app. If someone wanted to lose weight in a healthy way, say they wanted to lose like half a pound a week or a quarter pound a week. And the apps gave them, like, some help things to eat and you can scan barcodes. That's. That makes it so much easier rather than thinking, oh, my God, that. That losing weight is such a hard task to do. Like, these things can make it easier. And if people need to do it, these things can help for sure. And exercising helps. I mean, we all exercise. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, exercise makes you healthy. Awesome.

[Rana Willink]

So you're not. It's not like, it's just the way that it's, it's just the way that it's used.

[Jocko Willink]

What are your goals now? What do you got going on? What do you want to do?

[Rana Willink]

Jiu jitsu world champion.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Rana Willink]

And like helping, like just teaching kids for like a very long time. I seriously love teaching kids. It's like you can, you can literally see them like transforming in front of your eyes. You think that you're teaching them them. You would think that because you're teaching them some sort of like violent martial art that it, that it's going to make them like worse or want to fight. But like that's, it's so the opposite.

[Jocko Willink]

100 the best.

[Rana Willink]

And all the kids and all the parents will tell me like, my kid is like paying attention in class. More. Like ever since they started training Jiu jitsu, like they've actually been listening to us and like more disciplined and like, it, it's like such an awesome transformation to watch it. Especially like kids that don't want to fight in the beginning that don't want to do it. And then you just see them like get, get so into it. I have this girl named Emma. She's six. And the first day her dad brought her in, she sat, she sat on the side with her dad. I came up to them, I said, do you want to fight? Do you want to try the lava game? And she said, no, no, I don't, I don't want to do it. I said, okay, that's fine. She has a jiu jitsu page now. First of all, competes at every tournament that we do is so fearless. Like on the mats. It's so awesome. Does all the techniques we tell her to. Listening to us, helping out kids that are like new in the class. It's so awesome. And she didn't even want to fight in the beginning. And now she's like winning like always winning Friday night fights. Always helping out. Such a good kid. Such good manners. Her mom is like, her parents are so grateful for it, you know, it's so awesome. But that's not even the one story. That's, I mean, yeah, that's just one story. Like I have, I teach a bunch of kids that have like attention issues too, and they, they aren't like you can see in front of your eyes, like, they stop getting kicked out less and less. They're like paying attention. They're like, I'll help out the new kid. It's so awesome.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's a huge part of the warrior kid thing. And I Just beg everyone to train Jiu Jitsu yourself. Get your kids trained in Jiu Jitsu. Just, it's just gonna, it's so helpful for every aspect of your life. It just, it's just so good for you. And you got to be careful because you can do what I did. I knew that very thing with my own kids and I freaking blew it. Now I will, I, I will. The cool thing is now all my kids train. But I blew it for a while. I could have done it better. Let's say that.

[Rana Willink]

And everyone has their own path.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. As, as, as we said when you got your blue belt, everybody, it's best if, if they have their own path. And not just in Jiu Jitsu, in everything in life, but putting the crumbs out on the trail so they can find them is the best way to do it. Don't push them down the path, don't shove them down the path. Don't cut off every other option besides the thing that you want. Put the crumbs out there. Let them see what it feels like. Let them, let them understand it. Explain the why to them. And, and you're going to get your kid to be in a much better spot. And look, there's a bunch of other, you know, all activities. And one of my friends, Scott, you know, he's always said he, when we, when all of you guys were younger, he was like, I just want my kid to be indis. Were my kids to be into something, whether it's surfing, whether it's playing guitar, whether it's volleyball, basketball, football, just being into something is awesome. And support them and, and enable that as much as you can. And if that thing happens to be Jiu Jitsu.

[Rana Willink]

Whatever happens.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Then that'll be really beneficial. And even if it's not, if they train once a week, you know, you know, if they're training once a week, they're getting in there. You'd be shocked, shocked at how much people, how much kids absorb. Once a week, over a two year period, over a three year period. They're going in there once a week, once on Saturdays. And by the way, they're gonna win in a little bullying fight if they get attacked by some other 8 year old. And they been training Jiu Jitsu once a week for four months, they're winning, which is crazy, but they're winning. They have to worry about it. So those things are awesome. You're also, you're doing it. You're going on the speaker circuit too, right? Because aren't you Speaking at Gabriel. Dr. Gabriel Lyons event.

[Rana Willink]

She asked me. She asked me to speak.

[Jocko Willink]

What are you gonna speak about?

[Rana Willink]

Probably it's in April, so it's pretty far away, but just about jiu jitsu and exercise and things like that.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Awesome. So, Echo. Charles, you got anything else? I noticed you a couple times. I was looking over, you know, you got kids.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true.

[Jocko Willink]

You look like you were thinking about, you know, what it's like having kids, and hopefully you learn some from some of the mistakes that I made.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. I think. Well, I think watching you guys grow up, it mirrored. Especially you. You mirror a lot of what my daughter goes through because she's, like, stronger than her peers and stuff. But, yeah, it kind of. It kind of provides like a good. Kind of like a track, like a path, you know, something that I think that we all can kind of hold on to because it's easy to compare ourselves, like, to other people, you know, But I think a lot of times that's a mistake. But, yeah, it was cool to. To know you and to see you grow up into. To who you are today.

[Rana Willink]

Thanks.

[Jocko Willink]

It's interesting because you've been. You've known all my kids since they were little, tiny kids.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, like baby kind.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I think maybe. I think maybe you knew when we opened Victory, I think that was. That was like 19. Or. Sorry, 2008. It was 2008, but 2007, we were. We were training here for, like four months. So it was a 2007, and then we officially opened to the public in 2008. So. How old were you in 2008?

[Rana Willink]

Like seven, dude.

[Jocko Willink]

So, yeah, my son was five.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Your older sister Freya was nine. So that's like.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, you've.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, a five year old is a little kid. Yeah, a seven year old is a little kid.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, like a kid kid.

[Jocko Willink]

And it must have been weird for you because you didn't have kids yet.

[Echo Charles]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

So you're just, like, looking at these freaking feral creatures.

[Echo Charles]

What's funny? We were at Tim's house. You know that picture? I think I sent it to all you guys. Yeah. Timbo Mania.

[Jocko Willink]

In fact, I think it was actually. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And it's all you guys in the Jacuzzi with my brother. And yeah, you guys are like little kids. Yes, it was funny, but, yeah, it's fun. And the next time I saw you was a picture that Jocko sent of you, like, after you won a wrestling tournament. You're all, like, buff. I'm like, I don't remember this daughter, you know, like this and you kind of connect the dots. I was like, wow, man. Yeah, it's crazy, but yeah, crazy. Good job. Good job, Hannah. Thanks get you so.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, well, I guess you want to thank probably Victory and Legion and Origin and Jono Fuel.

[Rana Willink]

Sure. Yeah, I do. I do.

[Jocko Willink]

What else does that get us up to speed? Where can people find you? Ran at. Ran Will link.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. At random link on Instagram. I post a lot of jiu Jitsu and. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And speaking of Mulk. Sure.

[Echo Charles]

Hell yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Echo Charles, are you on the Mulk train?

[Echo Charles]

Of course. Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm very much your road work today.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Milk chain. That's protein, which you need. You know what else you need? Joint warfare. Yeah, it helps. You know what else you need? Super curl greens. Go. How many goes do you drink? A dream day Rana.

[Rana Willink]

One.

[Jocko Willink]

One.

[Rana Willink]

One. If. If that before what class J Flow jflo. Just. Yeah. Or before I teach the kids. Just depends. I won't drink two in one day, but I don't drink coffee or anything like that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. If you want this stuff that's going to help you throughout your Journey, go to jocafuel.com hi Journey. Hi Journey.

[Rana Willink]

Hi, healing journey.

[Jocko Willink]

Hi, healing journey. If you need stuff to help propel you down the healing journey, we got the stuff that you need. Jockofuel.com We're. We got. Got the 434 tour going on. We're going to be in Bentonville, Arkansas. Yep. Saturday, October 26th. So if you want to come by for that, if you want any of this stuff, like I said, you can go to jockofield.com you can go to Walmart, you can go to Wawa Vitamin Shop, GNC Military Commissaries, A's, Hanford Dash stores in Maryland, Wake Fern, Shoprite, H down in Tejas, Meijer up in the Midwest. Wegmans. I just had someone tell me that they buy out Wegmans like once a week. They're sitting there getting. I was like, outstanding. Harris Teeter Lifetime fitness shields. And we're getting into more and more places. Small gyms. We're in Jiu Jitsu gyms all over the place. Legion, Victory. We're going into Altos. Yeah. So just if you got a Jiu Jitsu school or you got a CrossFit gym, JF Salesocom hit us up and we can get you the goods that you need. Also on your healing journey of Jiu Jitsu, guess what you're gonna need. Echo Charles What?

[Echo Charles]

Later.

[Rana Willink]

It wasn't a healing journey of Jiu Jitsu. It was just like healing journey of myself. Jiu Jitsu was part of.

[Jocko Willink]

But Jiu Jitsu is part of the healing.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. It's not all of Jiu Jitsu. It's of Ran Link.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm going to say.

[Rana Willink]

Okay, we won't give Jiu Jitsu too much credit.

[Jocko Willink]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Rana Willink]

I give it a lot of credit. Hold on now.

[Jocko Willink]

I heard you say something the other day. You were like, I do not. I think e. You said, I do not know where I would be in my life right now without the Jiu Jitsu. Bo.

[Rana Willink]

Well, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That's like. Okay, okay. Sorry. I'm going to.

[Jocko Willink]

She said she didn't want to give Jiu.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, too much credit.

[Rana Willink]

No, I. I. The healing, it started with a lot, but Jiu Jitsu helped me tremendously. For sure. But it doesn't have to be Jiu Jitsu.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Should be Jiu Jitsu.

[Jocko Willink]

It's not Jiu Jitsu. Jiu Jitsu helps.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, it does.

[Jocko Willink]

Jiu helps a lot.

[Rana Willink]

Think something that you're into, something that you're into, that you like to do, that takes your mind off things. That is crazy. We got a lot going on in life.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, the thing about one of the things about Jiu Jitsu is, like, let's say you. There's other things that you can get into that you can get obsessed with that thing. And you can. And when you get obsessed with that thing, it makes you obsessed with a lot of other things that are tangential to the thing. So instead of just being obsessed with the thing, you can be thinking about, like, well, I really need. If I'm in the guitar, I really need to get this amp and this app and this thing and this, that, and this tuner and all this stuff, right?

[Rana Willink]

Well, it's not just, like, Jiu Jitsu gear to help you do the main.

[Jocko Willink]

Thing, but I'm saying there's, like, you can only get a G and a rash guard. There's no, like, you can get a.

[Rana Willink]

Cute one from Origin.

[Jocko Willink]

That's true. So, speaking of Jiu Jitsu GIS, OriginUSA.com Check it out. We got Made in America Jiu Jitsu gis. We got rash guards. We got jeans, boots, boots, of course, T shirts, joggers. We got everything that you need. Workout gear, hunt gear. We got everything that you need. And it's all Made in America. So you don't have to worry about sending money to this nation's. Adversaries who are have actual slave labor. In 2024, we fought against slavery in the Civil War. Let's continue to fight against slavery by buying American right now. Go to originusa.com that's what I got. Echo, Charles.

[Echo Charles]

It's true. Oh, also Iran. I forgot. I gotta thank you for keeping us and Jocko especially up to date with all the current terms, terminology and expressions.

[Rana Willink]

Because what's your guys's favorite?

[Echo Charles]

It's a good one. That actually, that was a new one. The one that you just said when you're like, hello, journey. Hello, journey. Yeah, like, what does that mean? Like, kind of like, oh, that's a new one, right? Yeah, you said that.

[Rana Willink]

It's sort of like sometimes your journey, like, can be a little bit like, this is my journey. Like, hello, dirty. You know.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, there's. I actually. I actually sent on the family group text said, hey, everyone, Ran is coming on the podcast. Please send Rana's vocabulary words because she has her own freaking way of speaking, which she refrained from decently amount today. But maybe the next time she comes on, we'll go through the entire. Because the thing that was funny was she would say these words, but then, like, her friends would all say these words and then the family would say these words. And so it was like.

[Rana Willink]

And even Dad's. Even you say those words.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, I would. I would say these words.

[Rana Willink]

Eating.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

What?

[Rana Willink]

Eating.

[Jocko Willink]

Eating.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's one.

[Rana Willink]

That's one. No, I didn't make it up.

[Jocko Willink]

But she's. She brings it in from popular culture.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, she's like the prophet that brings it in or whatever. Like. Yeah, like, and my daughter, she's 11, so she gets some of it. And I kind of, you know, refine my understanding and knowledge, but I think this is where I get the bulk of it for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Car. See, I just hit you, right?

[Echo Charles]

You can't hit me with the.

[Jocko Willink]

We need to disseminate or discern between the words that you brought into.

[Rana Willink]

A lot of things I don't make up. It's just you guys have never heard it before. But I love when you start saying it. I. And then my friends are like, bro, what did he just say? Period? Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Period. So I remember one time we were recording your singing, by the way, and you. You were asking a question, then you said, question mark. You said the word question mark. So I was like. I was like, wait, is this some weird new, like, thing? And then I'm. Then I, like, thought about it for a little bit a day. Maybe two. And then I realized, is it because you. You talk to text a lot?

[Rana Willink]

No, I never talk to text. I think it's just like, you're saying a statement, but you're also kind of asking. Asking. You're like, I guess I'm gonna say that on the podcast. Question mark.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Because it's like, I guess you are saying, I guess I'm gonna say that. But also you're saying, like, making it.

[Jocko Willink]

Clear that it's a question mark.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah. If, you know, if. If you're like, wait, does my hand go here? Question mark?

[Echo Charles]

Wait. Okay.

[Rana Willink]

So it's because you kind of know your hand goes there, but also you're like, you're not like, my hand goes here. Because you don't know know. And you're asking coach, like, your coach.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Rana Willink]

And you're just like, question mark. Because you don't want to be like, I know it. Period.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Rana Willink]

You're like, I don't know, question mark.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So it's not redundant. It's kind of just more specific.

[Rana Willink]

It specifies it. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

I thought I concluded that it was like, oh, no, these kids nowadays, they're on their phone texting and stuff. Sometimes they're talking and texting, and when you say question mark, it puts a question mark there, saying, but, hey, all right. Yeah, I'm glad I know now. But also. Also, by the way, thanks for clarifying, by the way.

[Rana Willink]

Of course, if.

[Echo Charles]

I'll be on the lookout for any new terminologies. Anyway, Jocko, the store. I don't know if you know this. Actually, I do know you know this because I see you representing from time to time, which I like, by the way. It's called Jocko Store. So you go to jockostore.com. discipline equals freedom. Rash guards. T shirts. Hats, hoodies. Mainly T shirts. That's what we. I don't want to say spiritual. Specialize in, but we kind of specialize in T shirts. Swing T shirts. Also shirt locker. It's called the Shirt Locker subscription T shirt scenario. New design every month. Good design.

[Jocko Willink]

Ren has requested certain.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Ones of those from you.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Especially toxic product. Did you make up toxic product?

[Rana Willink]

No, that's. That's My older sister, Freya made that up.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

She was like.

[Rana Willink]

But it's true. It's true.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. I'm. I'm the CEO of Toxic Productivity. CEO?

[Rana Willink]

Have you heard of CEO?

[Echo Charles]

CEO? Poster child. Oh, wait. As an expression?

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

No, no, no.

[Rana Willink]

Oh. If we're talking about something you say I'm the CEO of the company. Like, trust me, I know. You know, like, toxic productivity. Have you heard of it? Dad would be like, I'm the CEO of the company. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Okay. Okay, good.

[Jocko Willink]

Good. This case, I guess.

[Rana Willink]

But also, everyone must get stoned. I requested that shirt, but I can't really wear it anywhere.

[Jocko Willink]

How come?

[Rana Willink]

Just, like, if you. I don't know.

[Echo Charles]

Might be too much for some environments.

[Jocko Willink]

There are some people that didn't that were against that shirt.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

But because I heard the story about it, I was like, I want that shirt.

[Jocko Willink]

So. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

What about this one right here?

[Jocko Willink]

That is a cool shirt.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

[Echo Charles]

It's not shirt locker. This is. This is a different store.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's his life T shirt. You got the death core flag flying boldly and aggressively there.

[Echo Charles]

Very aggressively.

[Jocko Willink]

You have four stripes on your black belch in that particular.

[Echo Charles]

Particular thing, actually, this is the empty space. So it represents any belt that you may have. See, I'm saying that's the symbolism, the layers behind it.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Nonetheless, short locker is a little bit outside the box designs.

[Rana Willink]

Very impressive.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's good. Fun. People seem to like it. There was one guy representing at the muster with the. It was the Snickers.

[Rana Willink]

I saw that one.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Is that discipline on it?

[Echo Charles]

And freedom on the back.

[Jocko Willink]

I signed a toxic productivity T shirt at the muster.

[Echo Charles]

Perfect.

[Rana Willink]

I love that shirt.

[Jocko Willink]

So There you go.

[Echo Charles]

Jockosore.com.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes, there you go. Also, Rana eats steak. She gets her steak from primalbeef.com and colorado craft beef.com. if you want to get the best steak, go to those websites and get some. Also, subscribe to the podcast. Also Jocko Underground. We're about to record one of Those right now YouTube channels where there's Origin USA, there's Jocko Fuel, and there's Jocko Podcast. Check those out.

[Echo Charles]

And clips.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, and there's Jocko podcast clips.

[Rana Willink]

Do you run that?

[Echo Charles]

It's a good one. Let's say we collectively run it together.

[Rana Willink]

For sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, bro. I've written a bunch of books, so if you want to get those books, check them out. If you want to look, there's a movie coming out. It's called Way of the Warrior Kid, directed by Mick G. Goodness, starring a guy named Chris Pratt.

[Echo Charles]

Good man.

[Jocko Willink]

Also featuring Rana Willink, Echo Charles and Jacob Willink. And me, as a matter of fact, we're featured in it, so you may want to be on the lookout for that. But I'll tell you what. Get the books, the Movie's not going to come out for a bit. So you want to introduce Jiu Jitsu to your kids in a real powerful way. Get the books. Way. The warrior kid you want to get. You introduce your kids to working out in a real positive way. Get the books. You want to introduce your kids to healthy eating? Get the books. They don't need to be eating junk food now. Do they need a freaking scale? No. They don't need to weigh their food. There's nothing. No mentions.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So check those out. Also, Echelon front, we solve problems through leaders. We have leadership consultancy. We just heard about the women's assembly. We just got done with the muster down in Dallas. It was sold out. It was freaking epic. The next one is in San Diego. San Diego, February 23rd through the 25th. These things sell out. Have all sold out and they all will sell out. So if you want to go register asap, come to San Diego and check it out. That's gonna be February 23rd through the 25th. After that is San Antonio. I think that's April 29th through May 1st. So there you go. FTX Council battlefield. We have a bunch of things going on. If you want our help with your leadership, go to echelonfront.com we also have online training academy. Have you spoken on one of those yet?

[Rana Willink]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

Jamie's gonna have you speak on the women's one because there's a women's one. So check it out. We have an online training academy. Go to extremeownership.com these principles that we teach, we do it on courses. We also are live on there. And it has helped so many people square away their business and their life. Check it out. ExtremeOwnership.com if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold star families, Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate, want to get involved, go to Americas mighty warriors.org also Micah Fink, I guess. Latest report, he was fishing with a stick and he stabbed a salmon, pulled it out of the river. He's eating it right now, Riverside, watching the sunset. He helps our veterans find themselves by taking them up into the wilderness. Heroes and horses.org also Jimmy May's organization, Beyond the Brotherhood, helping SEALs after they get out, transition into the civilian sector. If you want to connect with us on the interwebs, Jocko.com also on social media, Rana is at Rana Willink. Yeah, you're on the gram anywhere Else.

[Rana Willink]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

Twitter?

[Rana Willink]

Nah.

[Jocko Willink]

X.

[Rana Willink]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm at Jocko. Willink. Echo is at Echo. Charles, just be careful, because there's an algorithm that will choke you, put you to sleep, you won't even know it. Echo. Charles, any final questions for Reina?

[Echo Charles]

Nope. That was it. Good to see you, sister.

[Jocko Willink]

Do you roll with Rana?

[Echo Charles]

Have I ever rolled with Rana?

[Jocko Willink]

You know, yeah.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Plenty.

[Jocko Willink]

How does that make you feel?

[Echo Charles]

Well, I'm very happy that she's in jiu jitsu, we'll put it that way. I'm very happy she's on our team, put it that way. You know, I'm glad that you are who you are.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you panicked rolling with Rana?

[Echo Charles]

Panicked? I can't say that I've panicked.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you? Have you. You say this to me sometimes the answer is yes. What's the words?

[Echo Charles]

You said sense of urgency.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you felt a sense of urgency with Ran Willing?

[Echo Charles]

Yes. Various times.

[Rana Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So actually, I'll even tell you where. And I said this at the camp when I was teaching. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Used you as the example. So there's a move. Jocko. Or not Jocko. Dean calls it the. The punk sweep or, I don't know, something like this where it's like. It's a thing where you essentially put the back. Put the. Push the back of a guy's arm when they do this thing or whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Like, behind the tricep kind of. And you kind of can get up and get out of side control. It's a very effective big guy, small guy, whatever. And I didn't even remember it because it happens, like, pretty rare, but the time that it always happens is with Hannah. So it's the one thing you got to watch out for. And I know this, that you got to watch out for this, because I almost got got with it a few times.

[Jocko Willink]

Almost got got.

[Echo Charles]

And those were the times that I experienced that sense of urgency that I sometimes talk about. Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, Rana Willink, any closing thoughts from you?

[Rana Willink]

No. Thanks for having me on. That was very fun.

[Jocko Willink]

Very fun. Well, thank you for coming on, and thank you for sharing your stories and your lessons, and thank you for being such a great person and such a wonderful daughter. And you're not only inspiring to a bunch of men and women and kids around the world, you're also inspiring to me.

[Rana Willink]

Thanks, Fat.

[Jocko Willink]

Also thanks to all our military personnel around the world. We know that you make sacrifices to keep us safe during peacetime and during war. So thank you for protecting us and a way of life. And also thanks to police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. We know that you sacrifice greatly for us as well, and we thank you for it. And to everyone else out there, trust, listen, respect, influence, and care. This is how you build relationships with people. You give them those things. And this not only includes the people you work with, does it not only includes your peers, it not only includes your subordinates, it not only includes your boss. Most important, it includes your family. So give those things to them. And of course, go train Jiu Jitsu with them too. Until next time, this is Rana and Echo and Jocko out.