Jocko Podcast Episode 462: Leadership and Social Connections in Modern Warfare with John Spencer

Release Date: October 30, 2024

In Episode 462 of the Jocko Podcast, host Jocko Willink engages in a profound discussion with Lieutenant Colonel John Spencer, a seasoned Army officer with over 25 years of active duty experience. The conversation delves into the intricacies of leadership, discipline, and the evolution of social connections within modern warfare, drawing from Spencer’s extensive combat background and his scholarly insights as Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point.

Introduction to John Spencer

[00:00] Jocko Willink:
"John Spencer served as an active duty soldier for over 25 years, went up through the ranks from private to major, and he served in combat as both a platoon commander and a company commander."

Spencer's impressive military career is highlighted, showcasing his rise through the ranks and his pivotal role in shaping urban warfare strategies. His authorship of several books, including Connected Soldiers: Life, Leadership, and Social Connections in Modern Warfare, sets the stage for the episode’s deep dive into the dynamics of modern combat units.

Early Military Career and Initial Challenges

[03:11] John Spencer:
"My grandmother, who was a figure in my life, had a few ex-husbands that had served in World War II, so she was a frequent at the VFW and American Legion in town."

Spencer recounts his motivation to join the Army, influenced by his grandmother's connections to veterans from World War II. His seamless transition into the military, signing up at 16 and entering basic training by 17, underscores his early commitment.

[06:35] John Spencer:
"I was trying to be the gray man. Just don't bring attention, just survive, just get through the gates. Nothing special. And that's what I did. And it worked."

Despite his initial desire to blend in and survive, Spencer quickly faced the harsh realities of jungle warfare during his deployment with the 508th Infantry in Panama. The environmental challenges and aggressive leadership awakened his understanding of military discipline and combat readiness.

Transition to Leadership in Alpha Company

[03:32] Jocko Willink:
"Normally a few weeks were allowed for a command transition to take care of all the administrative accountability."

Spencer was abruptly thrust into command of Alpha Company following an IRAM (Improvised Rocket-Assisted Munition) attack, highlighting significant leadership challenges. The battalion commander empowered him to "fix it, fix it, all of it," giving him broad authority to restructure the company.

[07:02] John Spencer:
"Everything was trying to kill me to include my NCOs and officers. Like, why can't you run faster?"

Taking command in such dire circumstances forced Spencer to confront and address ingrained leadership deficiencies within the company swiftly.

Combat Experiences and Leadership Interventions

[14:20] John Spencer:
"...I put him in almost like a crucifix, upside down, choking, and he passes out. And then the cops are showing up. And we hightailed out of there."

Spencer shares a harrowing personal combat experience where he defended himself in a street fight, resulting in a severe ear injury. This incident underscores the unpredictable nature of combat and the immediate need for decisive leadership.

[30:51] John Spencer:
"...this is a nightmare scenario as people are vomiting in their mask."

Reflecting on a failed leadership decision involving a chaotic gas mask exercise, Spencer emphasizes the importance of adaptability and maintaining soldier trust during high-stress operations.

Building Cohesion and Overcoming Organizational Failures

[48:14] John Spencer:
"I felt all that you'd ever thought that war would be. Sitting around the Humvee top talking about somebody who fell out of the vehicle, who made a mistake, laughing at them."

Spencer critiques the lack of cohesive processing of traumatic events within military units, illustrating how shared hardships can bond soldiers but are often neglected in practice.

[69:05] John Spencer:
"So, again, the research shows that this was not happening. But in these moments, the jump, even like that hell that we paid going through that mud was an experience that only those that did it will have and will bond them for the rest of their lives."

He underscores the critical role of shared experiences in fostering deep bonds among soldiers, essential for effective combat performance.

Impact of Modern Warfare and Technological Advancements

[144:42] John Spencer:
"...the research actually shows that you actually are communicating different things. If communication is every day, and I can just text you like, hey, how you doing? Love you. The way you process what you're experiencing is actually changing."

Spencer explores how the evolution of communication—from letters to instant messaging—has altered the nature of soldiers' connections with home, impacting their mental resilience and cohesion.

[167:40] John Spencer:
"This was the story that was the New York Times op-ed that led to the book was this story of that one that all soldiers hate to see children harm. Like it's... It's something very unique."

He discusses the profound psychological impact of witnessing civilian casualties, emphasizing the moral injuries soldiers endure and the importance of comprehensive debriefing processes.

Conclusion and Future Insights

[200:20] John Spencer:
"I think, like you said, you in this day and age, if I really want to, I can do all my communications via email or text and not never interact with another human again. If you're not careful, you can do that with your business. If you're not careful, you can do that with your life."

In wrapping up, Spencer and Jocko reflect on the enduring necessity of physical human interaction and the challenges posed by modern technological distractions. They advocate for maintaining strong, mission-focused cohesion within military units while adapting to evolving communication landscapes.

[202:28] John Spencer:
"I have to read this part. We rarely visit Kuk from our more remote, remote locations, much like the frontline soldiers of World War I, World War II, Vietnam, and other wars."

Highlighting lessons from historical conflicts, Spencer emphasizes the timeless principles of leadership and cohesion that remain vital despite changing warfare environments.

Key Takeaways and Notable Quotes

• Leadership Under Pressure:
  John Spencer [00:00]: "When in command, take command."

• Importance of Cohesion:
  John Spencer [49:30]: "War isn't about individuals, it's about groups."

• Balancing Order and Morale:
  John Spencer [139:34]: "I had to make sure I explained to everyone why I was doing it, that this is us. This isn't me telling you what to do."

• Adapting to Modern Challenges:
  John Spencer [144:42]: "The way you process what you're experiencing is actually changing."

• Maintaining Discipline:
  Jocko Willink [183:54]: "Here's a cry... I did not mean, I didn't think it. There's [claiming a position] this is us, not me."

Closing Remarks

In this episode, John Spencer provides a candid and insightful exploration of the challenges and triumphs of modern military leadership. His firsthand experiences, coupled with his academic expertise, offer valuable lessons on building effective, cohesive units capable of navigating the complexities of contemporary warfare. Listeners gain a deeper understanding of the vital balance between maintaining discipline, fostering strong social bonds, and adapting to technological advancements in the battlefield.

For those interested in further exploring these themes, John Spencer’s book Connected Soldiers is highly recommended, as are his contributions through the Urban Warfare Project Podcast.

Connect with John Spencer:

• Website: johnspenceronline.com
• Twitter X: @SpencerGuard
• Instagram: @SpencerGuard
• Podcast: Urban Warfare Project Podcast

Support the Episode:

• Jocko Fuel: jockofuel.com
• Origin USA Apparel: originusa.com
• Jocko Store: jockostore.com

Thank you to John Spencer for sharing his remarkable journey and to all service members who continue to exemplify leadership and resilience on and off the battlefield.