Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast Episode 466: "Some Lessons Are Learned By Getting Smacked In The Face" with Lt. James Lechner

In Episode 466 of the Jocko Podcast, host Jocko Willink and co-host Echo Charles engage in a profound conversation with retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Jim Lechner. Drawing from Lechner's extensive military career, including his experiences in Somalia, Ramadi, and Afghanistan, the discussion delves into critical lessons on leadership, training, and combat strategy.

1. Introduction to Lt. James Lechner

Lt. Col. Jim Lechner joins Jocko and Echo to revisit his military journey, notably his role as a Ranger in the Battle of Mogadishu, as chronicled in his book With My Shield: An Army Ranger in Somalia. Jocko highlights Lechner's resilience, mentioning, “Jim Lechner fought in that battle, led in that battle, called in fire support during that battle, was eventually wounded pretty severely in that battle” (00:05).

2. Lessons from Somalia and the Evolution of JSOC

The conversation begins with an exploration of the lessons learned from the Battle of Mogadishu and how they influenced the restructuring of the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC). Lechner emphasizes the importance of learning from both successes and failures: “JSOC, like any good organization, learns as much or more from failure as they do from success” (03:24). This pragmatic approach led to enhanced training, intelligence integration, and the ruthless use of conventional weapons to protect American lives, setting the stage for JSOC's readiness in the post-9/11 era.

3. The Importance of Training and Unit Cohesion

Jocko underscores the significance of rigorous training and critical self-assessment in preventing friendly fire incidents, recounting a personal experience: “I debriefed that and explained what happened to every SEAL team for the next three years” (03:56). Lechner echoes this sentiment, advocating for thorough rehearsals and embedding officers within unfamiliar units to foster cohesion and readiness (06:17; 08:31).

4. Challenges in Task Force Ranger Operations

Lechner discusses the ad hoc nature of early Task Force Ranger operations, highlighting issues like inefficient cooperation with US intelligence and the complexities of operating within a fragile United Nations coalition. He notes, “the ad hoc nature of the UN command and even aspects of Task Force Ranger were troubling” (08:31). Both leaders agree that a clear, unified chain of command is essential for mission success and effective combat operations.

5. Transitioning Post-Somalia: Leadership and Staff Roles

After Somalia, Lechner describes his transition to various leadership and staff roles, including his time with the 25th Infantry Division in Hawaii and his deployment to peacekeeping operations in the Sinai. These roles taught him patience and the intricacies of large-scale operational planning, contrasting with his direct combat experiences (24:04–30:06).

6. Building the Iraqi Army and Counterinsurgency Efforts

Lechner details his pivotal role in training the Iraqi army during the early years of the Iraq War. He emphasizes the necessity of empowering Iraqi forces to lead their own operations: “I know you are going to have to let them bleed for their country rather than our boys bleed for their country” (47:37). This approach highlighted the limitations of US-led counterinsurgency and the critical need for local capacity building.

7. Ramadi Deployment and Leadership Under Pressure

During his deployment to Ramadi in 2006, Lechner faced intense urban combat conditions reminiscent of Mogadishu. He credits strong leadership and decentralized command for their success: “General McFarland had such an incredible example... we're not worried about... it's us against the insurgents” (66:34). The integration of armor, infantry, and special operations units, along with effective use of snipers and precision strikes, proved instrumental in stabilizing Ramadi despite heavy casualties (63:43; 64:59).

8. Post-Military Career and Continued Service

Upon retiring in 2017, Lechner transitioned to civilian roles, including teaching military history at Liberty University and founding a tactical training company. His dedication to leadership and training remains evident as he continues to advise and support military and first responder communities.

9. Insights on Modern Warfare and the Ukraine Conflict

Lechner offers a strategic analysis of the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, drawing parallels to historical battles like Stalingrad and emphasizing the evolution of warfare with drones and advanced surveillance. He advises modern troops to adapt by integrating drone countermeasures and enhancing camouflage techniques: “You are going to be detected... How are you going to react to that?” (101:36).

10. Closing Thoughts and Recommendations

The episode concludes with Lechner sharing his latest endeavors, including product endorsements for tactical gear and pre-workout supplements. Jocko and Echo commend his continuous commitment to training and leadership, reinforcing the podcast’s overarching theme: “We must remember that one man is much the same as another and that he is best who is trained in the severest school” (120:27).

Notable Quotes:

• Jocko Willink (03:24): “JSOC, like any good organization, learns as much or more from failure as they do from success.”

• Jim Lechner (03:56): “Being critical of ourselves is actually why we're good in the first place.”

• Jim Lechner (06:17): “You can't just jump right in.”

• Jocko Willink (03:56): “Blue on blue was a thing in Ramadi. It was happening, right. And we were able to avoid it.”

• Jim Lechner (08:31): “Rehearsals and embedding is like you said, I just to reemphasize that. Giving them time to train up.”

• Jim Lechner (47:37): “You have to train them. Put them in situations where there is a leadership void, where they are forced to step up.”

• Jocko Willink (66:34): “We're not worried about... it's us against the insurgents, which is what it's supposed to be.”

• Jim Lechner (101:36): “Drones, drone warfare, you just can't overemphasize it.”

• Jocko Willink (120:27): “We must remember that one man is much the same as another and that he is best who is trained in the severest school.”

Conclusion

Episode 466 of the Jocko Podcast provides a deep dive into Lt. Col. Jim Lechner’s extensive military experience, offering invaluable lessons on leadership, training, and adaptability in combat. His insights into modern warfare, particularly the integration of drones and the importance of local force empowerment, are especially relevant for today’s military and leadership challenges. Through candid discussions and real-world examples, Lechner reinforces the podcast’s core message: disciplined, well-trained leadership is paramount in overcoming the most formidable obstacles.