471: Better K-9s and Better Humans. With Mike Ritland

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast Episode 471 – "Better K-9s and Better Humans" with Mike Ritland

In Episode 471 of the Jocko Podcast, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink engages in a profound conversation with Mike Ritland, a former SEAL dog trainer, author, and entrepreneur. Alongside Echo Charles, Jocko explores critical societal issues, leadership principles, and personal development strategies aimed at fostering better humans and enhancing the bond between humans and K-9s.

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Guest Introduction: Mike Ritland

00:06 – 03:11

Jocko opens the episode by expressing his deep love for America and its foundational principles while voicing concerns about the country's current trajectory. He introduces Mike Ritland, highlighting Ritland's extensive background as a former SEAL dog trainer, author of multiple books including Canine Trident Warriors and Team Dog, founder of Tricos International, and host of the Mic Drop podcast. Jocko warmly welcomes Ritland back to the show, noting his previous appearance over six years prior in Episode 113.

Notable Quote:

"Mike Ritland is a former SEAL dog trainer... now back here to discuss some of his more recent lessons learned things going on in this world." – Jocko Willink [00:06]

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Societal Challenges: Mental Health and Addiction

05:40 – 18:40

The discussion delves into Ritland's book, Unfuck America, published in 2021 amidst the COVID-19 pandemic. Ritland explains that the book addresses pervasive societal issues exacerbated by the pandemic, such as increased mental health struggles, addiction, and declining physical health metrics. Jocko and Ritland highlight alarming statistics:

• Suicides: 132 per day in the U.S. (06:24)
• Drug Overdoses: Over 70,000 deaths in 2019, with opioid-related fatalities reaching 450,000 between 1999-2018 (06:24)
• Obesity: Prevalence increased from 30.5% in 1999 to 42.4% in 2018 (14:52)

Notable Quotes:

"There's no formula that works when there's as many people sick as not." – Mike Ritland [15:14]

"Alcohol is literally a poison that you're going to put in your body." – Jocko Willink [07:59]

Ritland emphasizes that addressing these issues requires a shift in personal responsibility and lifestyle choices, advocating for better nutrition, physical activity, and mental resilience.

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Alcohol vs. Marijuana: Societal Impact

06:40 – 15:50

A significant portion of the conversation contrasts the societal impacts of alcohol and marijuana. Jocko shares his personal journey of reducing and eventually stopping alcohol consumption after recognizing its detrimental effects. Both guests agree that alcohol poses a greater societal threat than marijuana, citing increased violence, impaired judgment, and economic costs associated with excessive drinking.

Notable Quotes:

"Every day, my friends that smoke weed every day are way better off than the friends that I have that drink." – Jocko Willink [11:02]

"If I had to pick one or the other, I think weed would cause less problems than alcohol." – Mike Ritland [10:40]

They discuss the cultural normalization of alcohol in social bonding and question the wisdom of promoting alcohol consumption, especially among younger demographics.

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Education System Decline and Bureaucratic Oversight

16:12 – 22:32

Ritland and Willink scrutinize the U.S. education system, pointing out its decline in global rankings despite high expenditures. Ritland correlates this downturn with the establishment of the Department of Education in 1979, arguing that increased bureaucracy has hampered educational outcomes.

Notable Quotes:

"If we do not change, we're gonna see some nerves, some nervous people in those bureaucratic jobs." – Jocko Willink [16:31]

"When you remove security, police, you know those types of shift jobs, it's less, it's 1%." – Mike Ritland [21:40]

They predict significant governmental inefficiencies and advocate for dismantling or decentralizing educational oversight to improve performance metrics.

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Media Influence and Echo Chambers

24:51 – 44:29

The conversation shifts to the role of media in perpetuating societal divisions. Ritland introduces a protocol for overcoming echo chambers:

1. Remove Emotions
2. Remove Politics
3. Mind Your Own Business
4. Hold Yourself to the Same or Higher Standard

Jocko elaborates on how social media algorithms trap individuals in echo chambers, reinforcing existing beliefs and preventing exposure to diverse perspectives. Echo Charles reinforces the idea by sharing personal observations about the lack of entitlement among children in their respective environments.

Notable Quotes:

"If you can get started on that, and you know, so for me, it was like, obviously they've done enough due diligence to say that they think it's a good idea." – Mike Ritland [05:43]

"Don't just believe something because you want to believe it or because you like the person telling you to believe it." – Jocko Willink [40:37]

They stress the importance of consuming information from varied sources to cultivate independent thinking and reduce societal polarization.

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Parenting for Accountability and Independence

44:49 – 67:06

Ritland and Willink shift focus to parenting strategies that promote responsibility and self-reliance in children. They advocate for granting children independence while allowing them to experience the consequences of their actions within safe boundaries.

Key Points:

• Allowing Failures: Let children "brush up against the guardrails of failure" to learn resilience.
• Responsibility: Encourage children to take on tasks independently, fostering self-reliance.
• Consequences: Implement consistent and strategic consequences for undesirable behavior without resorting to punishment or emotional outbursts.

Notable Quotes:

"Give kids independence and let them fall on their ass sometimes." – Jocko Willink [52:16]

"If you can get your kids out of school for some reason, do it." – Jocko Willink [54:30]

They share personal anecdotes demonstrating the effectiveness of their parenting methods, emphasizing calmness, consistency, and the importance of teaching children the value of privileges.

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Leadership Protocols for Effective Dialogue

67:06 – 89:06

Ritland introduces a four-step protocol for approaching issues and engaging in meaningful conversations:

1. Remove Emotions
2. Remove Politics
3. Mind Your Own Business
4. Hold Yourself to the Same or Higher Standard

This framework aims to facilitate unbiased, productive discussions by minimizing personal biases and fostering mutual respect. They discuss practical applications of this protocol in various contexts, including political debates and personal conflicts.

Notable Quotes:

"If everyone implemented these principles, I think we'd see a lot of change." – Mike Ritland [73:51]

"Listening is one of the absolute most underrated skills in being in leadership." – Jocko Willink [82:17]

The guests emphasize that adopting these protocols can significantly reduce conflicts and enhance understanding across divergent viewpoints.

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Health and Personal Development: Get Outside, Fuel Properly, and Exercise

89:06 – 100:51

The discussion highlights critical components of personal health and development:

1. Get the Fuck Outside: Physical activity and exposure to nature improve mental and physical well-being.
2. Fuel Properly: Adopt a nutrient-dense diet to support overall health.
3. Get After It: Engage in continuous self-improvement and physical training, such as Jiu Jitsu, to build discipline and resilience.

Ritland shares his passion for Jiu Jitsu, explaining how the practice enhances mental clarity, discipline, and physical fitness. Both guests advocate for regular exercise and proper nutrition as foundational elements for personal and societal improvement.

Notable Quotes:

"Get the fuck outside. Clean fuel. Get after it. Train jiu jitsu." – Jocko Willink [125:45]

"Jiu jitsu is one of those things where I think you... get the most return." – Mike Ritland [108:24]

They also discuss the importance of taking ownership of one's health to alleviate broader societal issues related to addiction and chronic diseases.

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Mike Ritland’s Current Endeavors: Warrior Dog Foundation and Business Ventures

100:51 – 125:27

Ritland provides an overview of his ongoing projects, including:

• Tricos International: Dog food company focused on high-quality nutrition for working dogs.
• Warrior Dog Foundation: Nonprofit organization dedicated to rescuing and rehabilitating retired working dogs that would otherwise be euthanized.
• Mic Drop Podcast: Platform for unfiltered conversations on diverse topics.

He discusses the challenges of expanding the Warrior Dog Foundation, particularly in managing a growing number of rescued dogs and maintaining operational efficiency without compromising mission focus. Ritland also touches on his continued involvement in dog training and fostering better relationships between humans and K-9s.

Notable Quotes:

"We have over 10 dogs on a waiting list right now." – Mike Ritland [118:17]

"Take responsibility and ownership for what is yours. Don't blame your problems on other people." – Jocko Willink [100:01]

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Final Thoughts: Building a Better Future Through Personal Responsibility

125:26 – End

Closing the episode, Jocko and Ritland reiterate the importance of individual agency, personal responsibility, and continuous self-improvement. They encourage listeners to adopt the discussed protocols, engage in meaningful dialogues, and contribute positively to their communities. The episode concludes with calls to action for supporting various initiatives and an affirmation of the collective effort required to create a better society.

Notable Quote:

"Your life, that individual thread that you've been given to weave alongside countless others is what will create the tapestry of the next chapter in history." – Jocko Willink [113:37]

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Key Takeaways

• Address Societal Issues at the Personal Level: Individuals must take responsibility for their health, behavior, and mindset to effect broader societal change.
• Adopt Leadership Protocols: Removing emotions and politics from discussions can lead to more productive and respectful dialogues.
• Promote Responsible Parenting: Granting children independence while enforcing consistent consequences fosters resilience and accountability.
• Engage in Continuous Self-Improvement: Regular physical activity, proper nutrition, and disciplined training are essential for personal development.
• Support and Sustain Nonprofits: Initiatives like the Warrior Dog Foundation play a crucial role in rehabilitating and honoring service dogs.

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Further Resources

• Mike Ritland's Website: mikeritland.com
• Warrior Dog Foundation: warriordogfoundation.org
• Tricos International (Team Dog): teamdog.com
• Mic Drop Podcast: Available on major podcast platforms
• Jocko Willink's Resources: jocko.com and extremeownership.com

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This episode serves as a compelling discourse on the intersection of personal responsibility, leadership, and societal well-being, offering actionable insights aimed at fostering both individual growth and collective improvement.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 471 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

I love this country. I love the principles that it was founded upon. I love the people who live here. The diverse mixed bag of hard working, freedom loving, independent individuals who make up our society. I love this land. From the mountains in Colorado to the wide open cattle fields in Texas to the sun and waves of Southern California. I was born here, ra raised here. I offered my life to serve this nation and protect its peace people. But as I look ahead, I fear for our trajectory. I fear for the future we're creating for the next generation. And that's why we need to talk. Because true change will only happen when honest, healthy and thoughtful conversations take place. We live in a world inundated with noise. The sound of people shouting their opinions and sharing information from every imaginable outlet, screaming to have their voices heard surround us. But though we may be talking, shouting, cramming information into our minds like a football team with a stack of pizza boxes in front of them, no one is actually communicating. No one is sitting down and having real conversations. No one is really talking. And we sure as hell aren't listening to each other. We've become a polarized and divided society that refuses to emerge from our echo chambers to listen to anyone with a differing opinion. We've grown so accustomed to the incessant noise created by biased news outlets, angry people convinced of their own assumptions and an onslaught of information, that we've lost the ability to have any type of substantial, positive conversations with our fellow man. As a result, we miss out on the power that comes from innovative, open minds tackling our world's problems from differing viewpoints and unique perspectives. And that right there is an excerpt from a book called Un Fuck America written by Mike Ritland. And Mike Ritland is a former SEAL, dog handler, dog trainer, author of several other books including Canine Trident Warriors, Navy SEAL Dogs and Team Dog. He's the founder and owner of Tricos International, which trains dogs, sells dogs, offers training programs for dogs, and fuels dogs with his Team Dog dog food, treats and supplements. He also runs the Warrior Dog foundation, which takes care of retired working dogs that would otherwise be euthanized. And finally, he is the the host of the Mic Drop podcast, no holds barred conversations with a wide variety of people to learn perspectives and expand horizons. He's been on this podcast before, over six years ago, episode 113. And he's back here to discuss some of his more recent lesson learned things going on in this world. So there you go. Welcome back, dude.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, thanks for having me. One quick correction. I trainer, not a handler, which people in the. In the community are pretty particular about. So just as a heads up, but.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, because I said you're a former dog handler, and I should have said a former dog trainer.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah. But I mean.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it. Hey, yeah, we want to get it right.

[Mike Ritland]

It's real.

[Jocko Willink]

There's. It might not mean much to Echo Charles, who's like, hey, bro, handler, handler.

[Mike Ritland]

What does mean if you're training them, aren't you.

[Jocko Willink]

Aren't you. Aren't you handling them if you're training them? It's true. So I was thinking about this book came out in 2021. Yeah. That was like. Were you writing it during COVID I was.

[Mike Ritland]

I mean, that's really. The. The reason it was written was, you know, the two weeks to stop the spread that turned into two years of madness. You know, sitting at home. The kids are home from school. You know, they basically went on spring break and then didn't go back. And so like. Like, you know, everybody's kids. And so, you know, in. In my industry, a lot of things had slowed down in. In person stuff had kind of shut off. And so I found myself sitting at home and I was like, well, I can go the way of a lot of people in Netflix and Doordash, or I can, you know, do something productive. And. And this had actually, I had been approached by Penguin to do on the heels of the team dog training book, and basically it was a, hey, we love your podcast. And there's all these different viewpoints, and, you know, a lot of them are kind of hotbed political topics that our nation is faced with that causes a lot of debate and. And controversy.

[Jocko Willink]

And so why don't you jump in the mix too?

[Mike Ritland]

So, yeah, why don't you get. Get started on that? And, you know, so for me, it was like, obviously they've done enough due diligence to say that they think it's a good idea. My concern with doing it with them or. Or any big publishing house was they're gonna stifle my voice and. And edit the out of it and make it to where it's not even really worth doing. So I was like, well, you know, I've already done three under major publishers. Why don't I just do it myself and then I can do it A, at my pace, B, it'll be completely up to me how it gets edited. And especially with a book like that, because it's pretty Edgy that way. You know, the last thing you want is a, you know, multi billion dollar publishing corporation and their HR team and lawyers going through something like that. So.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that would have been interesting.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, it would have been nine pages.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it would have been nine pages. And the title might have been changed for sure.

[Mike Ritland]

You're not getting the money out.

[Jocko Willink]

So I don't. I'm not going to read the whole book on the podcast. Get the book. But one of the things you talk about here is you talk about America, and in this opening chapter, you call it the rich spoiled brat. And you go through that. I think it's a pretty obvious metaphor. Anyone could figure out what you write to explain that. But you talk about some of these freaking statistics. Mental health. On average, there are 132 suicides a day in the United States. 70,000. Over 70,000 drug overdose deaths in the United States in 2019.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, I mean, those, those numbers are significantly higher now in both categories.

[Jocko Willink]

Opioid crisis, 1999-2018. 450,000 people died from an overdose involving opioid. Like, that's insane.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, I mean, It's World War II numbers.

[Jocko Willink]

Alcoholism. It's funny because you and I were talking to you. You and I just did a podcast. You interviewed viewed me for your podcast, but we were talking about alcohol. And I. You were, you were, you were trying to pressure me. You're trying to peer pressure me into, into like the benefits of alcohol. And I literally have gone through this transition of, you know, when I was in the teams drank, when I was first got the teams drank a ton, drank less the older and more senior I got. And then eventually when I retired, stopped drinking. But still, you know, I get it. Hey, I get it. You know, it's still. And I, I didn't stop drinking like immediately, but it was pretty quick. And then it was like, well, I still get it. You know, I get it why the platoon boys are going out and having a beer. Hey, it's part of the thing. It's part of bonding. And you, you know who your brothers are. And I went through that. Like, I get it and still support it. And I was kind of like, well, and. And right now I've just gone. Yeah, I've gone. I. I can't find anything good about it anymore. So you talk about alcohol in this thing and like, dude, it's excessive alcohol costs the economy, the U.S. economy, $250 billion a year.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's crazy to think about alcohol. This is literally a poison that you're Going to put in your body, it's going to make you do crazy. I had a friend, that was when I was growing up and he eventually did every drug, crack, heroin, you know, pot, lsd, the whole nine yards. And he would say the only drug that he thought should be illegal was alcohol because he ended up. He was in jail a couple times and the times he got put in jail wasn't because a. Heroin wasn't from crack, it was from booze.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

He goes, nothing makes me do the more crazy than alcohol.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I don't know.

[Mike Ritland]

Well, I guess to clarify, I wasn't. My intent was not to.

[Jocko Willink]

You were exploring the bounds of my beliefs.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, but not, not in, in a manner with which I am trying to highlight any benefits of alcohol. I guess I would say, you know, going further into it, I think like on the, on the platoon front, I, I think it's, it makes sense to do those outings occasionally. You know, I agree like three or four nights a week. No, even once a week. No. But you know, I think like almost like not hell week but almost like an FTX is that. Hey let's, let's send the boys out into Beale street on a trip and they all get shit faced and see how they handle it. Like I don't think it should be a regular thing, but I do see a benefit in seeing how guys handle themselves under the influence when they're around each other and there's that unknown of the civilian populace of other that are drinking and bouncers and, and the great unknown. I, you know, maybe it's just I throw it on pay per view, I fuck, I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

But oh no, if you want to get ratings on pay per view, you're. That's a brilliant idea. Give a bunch of freaking guys booze on Beale Street. Oh yeah, let's go give him a fistful of money.

[Mike Ritland]

Throw some chicks in the mix.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You can see why I don't think this is a good idea because we know this would make great reality television.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Dude. How many team guys wrecked their careers and. Or their lives?

[Mike Ritland]

A bunch.

[Jocko Willink]

And put a, a stain on the teams by doing dumb when drunk?

[Mike Ritland]

For sure. Yeah. I mean it's like I said, I mean I've never been a big drinker. I couldn't tell you the last time I had any. Like if you know, if my dad's in town for Christmas or something, we'll have a bourbon together or something. But that's about it. I mean otherwise I, I almost never drink. I don't particularly like it. And I know what it's doing to your body. I mean, it is. It's. It's literal poison, you know, that's. That's how your body's treating it. And so. But to me, the, the biggest thing is the, the negative impacts that it has on society.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Mike Ritland]

Are just astronomical, you know, especially when you compare it to, say, marijuana as an example. I'm not, I'm not a fan of that either, but if I had to pick one or the other, I think. I think weed would cause less problems than alcohol.

[Jocko Willink]

I have friends that smoke weed every day, multiple times a day, and they are way better off than the friends that I have that drink.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Every day for sure. It's not even close. Echo Charles. Assessment.

[Mike Ritland]

He's from Hawaii. You know what he thinks.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, agree. I would agree with that protocol, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, why is that?

[Echo Charles]

Why is what?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, like, why is that? Because my friend was right that when he said that alcohol makes you do crazy things.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, do you do crazy stuff on weed?

[Echo Charles]

I don't know that that's true. And no one. I don't smoke weed, but I've never heard of anyone in particular who did crazy, crazy stuff on weed. And I'll tell you why. Put simply, what alcohol does is to, you know, the two voices in your head, you know about this. The one that says, hey, yeah, yeah, do that. Right. And then you have the regulatory brain voice that's like, no, no, no, don't do that. Because of these legitimate reasons. Right. And that's. And then you play, you know, this, this dance. As you go through life with that dance of those two voices, the alcohol just makes the voice that says, hey, no, don't do that. The regulatory voice just makes that quieter and quieter and quieter. That's it.

[Jocko Willink]

And does it make the other one louder, too?

[Echo Charles]

I guess by. I mean, as far as, like, yeah, the. The result. Yeah, it's louder, more prevalent. Yeah. And that's the way it works.

[Jocko Willink]

What do you get, like, when you're drunk? Echo Charles.

[Echo Charles]

It's the same deal. But I'm not like an aggressive person to go, like, start the public or nothing like that. So I just. But it's the same essential format where it's like, yeah, all the voices in my head that say, yeah, yeah, yeah, like that. This is true. This is a good idea, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Because you know what he does when he's drunk? He buys multiple URLs from GoDaddy.com.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Or like, experiment with stuff yeah. With video or special effects or whatever. But I'll tell you this. Where, yeah. If I'm embracing the protocol, I'll be like. To be honest, it's true. Where, yeah. All my ideas seem like the best idea in the world. That's why I have all these URLs, because I'm like, bro, I can make this website. And, bro, I just see it being this massive success. Every. You know, the voice saying, yes, yes, yes, is super loud. And the voice saying, no, no, no, is pretty much quiet. Then the next day, he wakes up and then the reality sets in. See, I'm saying, so what my drinking looks like is different than what maybe, I don't know, a general society person's drinking might look like.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. When I used to drink, I used to be more jocko. I would be like, yeah, extra. A lot more. Extra jocko. Same dude, but, like, a lot more of it. It's. Yeah, it's kind of fun, but not worth the damn squeeze.

[Echo Charles]

Would you say that that's true, though? You know, put very, very, like, fundamentally. That. That's true. The whole voice. Voice in your head, the one that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes, I think that's true. But. But here's the other thing I noticed. Like, there's some people, legitimately, when they drink, they get in fights.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

There's some guys, when they drink, they're laughing hysterically. There's some guys that slur and fall down and, like, that's that. And you get to see all that in the SEAL teams. Like, hey, dude, watch out. Freaking. Fred's drunk. Stand by. We're gonna be in a fight. Or, Fred's drunk. Help me carry him to the cab. Or Fred's drunk, dude, look at him. He's hilarious. You see what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. I feel like, you know the. Because, you know, we know all the. All the. For, like, the common name, right? Angry drunk. The lover drunk. Like, you know, I feel like we all have. Or these different characters, they're inside them even when they're not drunk. They just have the regulatory voice that's saying, hey, that's not that appropriate right now. You know? Or if you get in a fight, which you want to, you're gonna get in trouble. Right. You know how we all have the regulatory. So I think we're all. I mean, the angry drunk is inside. There's some anger in there, just. But it's just being regulated really well, which is good. That's what being a mature person is, you know? Right. You know, but then, yeah, when you Start drinking that voice that says, hey, no, don't freaking false that guy or whatever. It gets all quiet then, then you're in a fight.

[Jocko Willink]

Gambling, pornography. You talk about those addictions in this book and then you get physical health, man, obesity, heart disease, nutrition based issues. From 1999 through 2018, the prevalence of obesity increased from 30.5%, which is already freaking crazy, to 42.4%.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, it's almost half.

[Jocko Willink]

And the prevalence of severe obesity increased from 4.7% to 9.2%. That's a problem.

[Mike Ritland]

It's a huge problem. And you know, one of the things I talk about in there, which I think is the, the symptom of that problem is, you know, you hear about health care like it's one of the most highly debated topics politically in our, in our society. And you know, everybody's trying to find this formula for the fix, you know, but the reality of it is, is that health insurance only works if most people aren't sick. Like there is no formula that, that works when there's as many people sick as not. You know, it's just like with car insurance and be like any type of insurance, you know, you're hinging or hedging your bet on the fact that most people aren't going to need it, you know, because with what it costs, even if you try to regulate costs, even if you, you know, subsidize stuff, even if you're, you know, importing things out.

[Jocko Willink]

There'S only so many people you can fit in the lifeboat right before the lifeboat's going down.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

And so, you know, when people try to, politicians try to say, well if we do this, like you guys aren't looking at the, at the problem. Like the, the root cause of the problem is the fact that there's too many unhealthy people in this country.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

There is no fix.

[Jocko Willink]

How do you think RFK rolling into the health department is going to impact? And when he starts changing some of the ingredients that are allowed to be.

[Mike Ritland]

Put in food, I just hope that he's able to, you know, that's my biggest concern is between lobbying and, you know, the amount of, of people in our political structure that are tied into being benefactors of, you know, big food, big pharma, etc, that's, that's going to be an uphill, uphill climb, you know, and, and he's probably going to meet resistance at every turn. I hope that he can, that he can do it because it severely needs to be done. But he's got his Work cut out for him.

[Jocko Willink]

I think one of the things that's going to benefit this next administration that's rolling is the communication platform of X. Yeah. Because imagine when they start posting, like, what they, what Doge finds.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When they say, here's what your taxpayer money went to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

I mean, they've already started.

[Jocko Willink]

And here's who's, here's who's trying to stop us from, you know, removing this ingredient from food.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Here's the lobby that's trying to do who. Here's who they're connected to. I think, I think it's going to be. I think the tools are in place to have impact. Like, has never been made for sure.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

And to me, the, the scary part is, is the, the one weak link there is if Elon Musk had not bought X. Oh, yeah, it would have never happened. You know, there would be no platform to expose that kind of stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you ever do something like when you were in the teams, like make some crazy midnight purchase, like out at the bar? You know, I got a buddy one time and we, you know, we get up the next day and he comes rolling and he's wearing like, an outfit. He had like, he had like cowboy boots on and like, acid wash jeans and he had been drunk and like, made some crazy purchase, you know. You ever seen that happen?

[Mike Ritland]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Dude. What if your buddy rolled out and bought a. A social media platform for $44 billion?

[Mike Ritland]

Nuts.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's just like, oh, yeah, I'm just gonna do this. Yeah, it's freaking epic.

[Mike Ritland]

But, you know, I mean, as. As big of a percentage of his net worth that that was at that time. Like, I think a lot of people at first saw, you know, the, the decline in, in shareholder value of it and whatever and thought that he had made a huge mistake. But you look at it now, and I mean, his net worth since, what, in the last year is, you know, almost doubled, I think. I mean, like, it's just crazy the amount of money he's. He's made from, from doing those things, you know, and it's not even, to me, the brilliance and the beauty of it is that I don't think that it has anything to do. To do with money for him, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I would say you're right. And it's especially because there's that interview with him where he's going, I don't care. Yeah, I don't care. You can have it. I don't care. I don't care about this anymore. Yeah, I mean, At a certain point, how many freaking Rolex watches are you gonna get?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, I mean, you're literally flying to Mars, bro. I don't know what else you're gonna do. You're in a pretty good spot. So he doesn't care anymore.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So he's. And, and what I like about that is it's sort of the, it's sort of the ultimate form of doing the right things for the right reasons and winning.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

And financially being in a position to do it and truly not give a shit or be beholden to anybody.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn, Doge coming in hot. And how freaking crazy is it that. That's Doge.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I'm saying? It's crazy. All right. Education system. You talk about that in here. The ranking was 38th. Our current ranking, despite United States having the second best education system in the world, consistently scores lower than many other countries in benchmarks such as math and science. And its education ranking was 38th in math scores and 24th in science. So we spend more money than anybody else and we're losers.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

Department of Education. I mean, if you look at the, the correlation and the parallel between where we ranked as a society, education wise, the year before Department of Education became.

[Jocko Willink]

A thing, 1979, I believe, and where.

[Mike Ritland]

It is now, there is a one to one parallel that just nosedives.

[Jocko Willink]

Nosedive. Imagine that you create a bureaucratic freaking managerial system.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And things get worse. Imagine what's funny is people on the surface, oh, we're gonna eliminate the Department of Education. Oh my gosh, why don't you care about education? No, we're just gonna give the money back to the people that do the educating the states. That's the plan to me, like all day.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

There's got to be some nerves, some nervous people.

[Mike Ritland]

Oh, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

In those bureaucratic, bureaucratic jobs right now.

[Mike Ritland]

Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, just looking at the. Did you see the percentage of people that actually go into the office that work for the government? What the percentage is?

[Jocko Willink]

What is the percentage?

[Mike Ritland]

It's 6% that go, that go between 9 to 5, Monday through Friday, 6% of the US government does that.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, does that include like a mailman?

[Mike Ritland]

Well, so here's the beauty of it. When you, when you remove security, police, you know those types of shift jobs that, that are required for people to do that, it's less, it's 1%. So 1, 1% of the U.S. government goes into the office five days a week, nine to five.

[Jocko Willink]

There's going to be a reckoning huge.

[Mike Ritland]

I mean you could, I think you could fire 80% of the US government and nobody would notice except the people that lost their job.

[Jocko Willink]

That's what, that's what. Elon dead at Twitter. Of course, we've all heard that over and over again. Yeah, Twitter's not going to work anymore. It's going down. Got more efficient. Sometimes I think that about my podcast staff.

[Echo Charles]

I think that too sometimes.

[Mike Ritland]

As long as we're in agreement, I.

[Jocko Willink]

Think I'd fired at least 50% and I should be good to go. Okay, another chapter. How do we get so fucked every anyway? Overcorrection and the exaltation of victimhood. What's that all about, man?

[Mike Ritland]

So again, kind of looking at the, we'll say the 90s as being the, the birth of political correctness on a larger scale going back to say the 50s where, you know, child rearing was pretty brutal. And I think most people would agree or argue that we as a society were probably harder on children than we should have been and there weren't enough programs to prevent things like that from happening. CPS, etc. Enter the, the 1990s and there's this highlight on that type of stuff. And in conjunction with speech and political correctness and things of that nature. And just like with a lot of things, the road to hell is paved with good intentions kind of mentality is that it's so bad. You see the same thing with like whether it's, you know, BLM or certain trans rights things or whatever is, is that you see a problem and you, you fix it until it's broken the other way. You know, the classic government adage, if it ain't broke, fix it till it is. I mean that's, that's essentially what it is. But the, so the problem is you have an entire society that, you know, is now walking on eggshells and is so overcorrected in terms of being political, politically correct and not punishing kids for certain things or not allowing, you know, schools to punish children or you know, having certain consequences for bad behavior as kids grow up and no accountability. Parents are now suing teachers instead of, you know, corroborating or collaborating with them to say, hey, there's a problem with Johnny and we're going to fix it together. It's, you know, how dare you talk to my son that way and we're going to sue you and you know, or pull the kids out or what have you. And so now fast forward a few decades and you have super self entitled little selfish pricks that have never been corrected for anything, that, you know, feel entitled to everything, have never been told no, you know, have never had consequences for being disrespectful to teachers or being unruly in schools. And you. You've come full swing, you know, the other way. And now it's equally damaging, just in a different direction.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, you know kids these days, because you got kids yourself, right? There's a lot of kids that are freaking really awesome at normal. Are you not seeing that?

[Mike Ritland]

I don't know that I'd say that there's a lot of them. There are some.

[Jocko Willink]

Whenever I get in this conversation with people, I always feel a little bit like a little bit of a bubble of some kind, because I look at the kind of. The kids that are around my kids.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I'm always like, kids, you know, kids out there getting after it, doing what kids do. I don't see too much of the crazy, you know, and like, go to a wrestling tournament. Like, kids are freaking.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

They're getting after it, man. They're training their asses off. They're hard. Go to a, you know, a sporting event. And the kids. Now look, can you see the occasional kid that seems like a spoiled brat? Yeah. But I don't know. I see less of it. And also, you think we've turned the corner a little bit on some of this political correctness? It seems like we certainly have.

[Mike Ritland]

I think so. We have. Again, this, know, three or three and a half years ago when the book was written, it was kind of at the apex, at the peak.

[Jocko Willink]

No, maybe not. It was close.

[Mike Ritland]

I would also say, you know, your.

[Jocko Willink]

Book corrected the course.

[Mike Ritland]

I like to think that. I don't want to say that you said it. I think, you know, in your sample of kids that you're around too, if you think about it, wrestling, athletics. I mean, athletics in general, that's not a. A very mean collective aggregate average of high school America. You know, I would say go. Go to a high school cafeteria at lunchtime and. And get a sense of. Of where kids are at or. Or any classroom.

[Jocko Willink]

Echo Charles Next generation, because your kids are a little younger. Are you identifying yet? Are you seeing kids? Do they seem that much different?

[Echo Charles]

I. I think I'm in this, in the same boat to a degree as you, where I live in a bubble. And the kids that consistently come around, my kids, now that's the key word consistently are. I'm like, I can't. I don't see any entitlement at all. Or like, spoiled, maybe. I See, some like, hey, like Brian just said, what's up? Say what's up back kind of a thing. But the kid's 8 years old, he's fired up, he's running and yelling and stuff like that. So it's like, whatever. I don't see the entitlement. Except every once in a while, yeah, I will see it, but I think it's like one of those things where you kind of correct for that, you know, so if some kid who's spoiled, who's entitled is coming around, it won't be consistent because I won't allow it to be consistent. So. So I've seen it. Yeah, yeah, I've seen it.

[Mike Ritland]

But I mean, to me, for all three of us, technically, it's all anecdotal, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, 100%.

[Mike Ritland]

And I'd say the overarching crux as to why I wrote that book was exactly that, is that, you know, we all have our own experiences. What most people see as being, say the top 10 problems in the United States are, are what, what's what you hear on the media. It's what you see on social media. It's what you hear people bitching about. But what does the data say? Because to me, that, that's really what's reflective of what the problems are in between education and kids getting in trouble from a legal standpoint as they become young adults, like, those numbers have absolutely skyrocketed. And so, you know, to me, like, yeah, I mean, my, all of the kids that around my kids seem like pretty, pretty decent kids. Just like, you know, some of the statistics that you see in the media a lot that aren't actually that big of a deal statistically in, in from a top 10 standpoint in terms of what's the most damaging or dangerous and threatening to the United States. They're not even in the top 50, but we hear about it all day long. And so to me, that, that was kind of the, the, the foundation behind the book was we're always distracted and arguing about things that, you know, scientifically or data wise don't really have that big of an impact on our society. But that's all we're focused on. You know, what are actually the biggest things? Well, it's being a fat ass, heart disease, depression, alcoholism, opioid addiction, eating like shit and dying from heart attacks or arthrosclerosis. I mean, there's all these different things that are killing hundreds of thousands of people that nobody talks about.

[Jocko Willink]

That's great. I'm so glad that I covered My ass. When I said I live in a bubble. Yeah, right.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because, because you're, you're right. I'm literally sitting here thinking about it. And I was about to counter you with the fact that a lot of young, A lot of young kids, again, that, that I have visibility on, guess what? They don't sit around and watch TikTok videos. They sit around and watch Jordan Peterson, you know, talk about stuff. They don't, they don't waste their mind on. Brian. Brain rot. You know what brain rot is?

[Echo Charles]

Yes, sir.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

They're not doing the brain rot thing. They're doing like the Andrew Huberman thing. Right. So there's, there's like a whole crew of people that are probably going to come out better, faster, stronger, smarter.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And there's a whole crew of people that are going in the other direction and it's probably, you know, it's lopsided.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And your statistics that you point out in this book show that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Also to the. When you say anecdotal or whatever, which is like, that's a lot more significant than it might even feel sometimes because like, and we talk about this every once in a While where like 40 or big percentage of America is like obese. Right. Like, bro, how many obese people do you see in your day to day? Bro, Kind of none. Yeah, but what are you doing? You're working out in your own gym by yourself. You're going to Jiu Jitsu with other Jiu Jitsu people or Muay Thai or fit, you know, back and forth or whatever, or surfing at the beach or whatever, all these active things. So it's kind of like just by happenstance, your personal anecdotal experience, you're avoiding all of those people. See, I'm saying so to you. They're like, no, there's no obesity to pro obesity problem.

[Mike Ritland]

I, I would encourage both of you to go to Lakeside Walmart and get your groceries tonight and see what the, the sample of caliber of person that's out there. You know, probably going to be a little different.

[Echo Charles]

A little bit different. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

One of the things that you throw in here is escaping the echo chamber, which I think is like, obviously a very smart thing to do. Escape the echo chamber. No offense to echo. Our, our echo here. Tell me about this echo chamber. I mean, we're, we're all freaking locked in there.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So your algorithm is set up for it. Your phone is made to get you trapped in there.

[Mike Ritland]

Well, and I think if you look at this current or this, you know, Previous, past, current election. Look at the, from a media standpoint, the echo chamber that exists within the Democratic Party and, or the liberal side is pretty significant. Now if you look at the, the two candidates on the right, they were constantly challenging themselves, going on, you know, heated debate, either whether it was podcasts or interviews with mainstream media that's, that's liberal or left leaning. There's zero of that on the other side. So you've got four years of media, politicians, candidates that are all just sitting in that echo chamber, agreeing with each other, never having to defend their position positions, never being argued with, just basically complaining about all the same and it being kind of corroborated internally. And then once you get to, you know, the last few weeks of the campaign where people are actually arguing and debating and it's laughable. You know, there's, there's an inability to even answer simple questions because of that, because they haven't had to do that. And so the problem obviously is that one, one of the things I talk about in there is coming to the, the conversation with an open mind, which is a lot easier said than done. But it's, it's crucial. You can't have an open mind and have a discussion with somebody if you're only living in an echo chamber. And also you're never going to have good ideas if they're not being challenged. You know, like if, if you should welcome debate and welcome having your ideas is challenged, for that matter, even welcome having your mind changed. I do. I mean, there's things I've certainly changed my mind that I was pretty adamant about, but over time and you know, people making their case and challenging a certain position and me thinking through it like, no, you know what, you're right. I actually agree with that and have changed my position on several things. But if you're never having to do that, that's never going to happen, you know, so it's a very stagnant mentality that, that a good portion of our society, even if it's not somebody that's in politics, but let's just say you're on Facebook and Instagram and Tick Tock or whatever. But to your point, you know, your algorithm is such to where all you get is the things you agree with, the things that already piss you off, that everybody else, you know, it pisses them off and you guys get around each other and you complain about it and that's all you, you surround yourself with. Then you never go anywhere.

[Jocko Willink]

Dude, it was crazy in going up into the election to watch the other side.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Just be totally, like, 100% convinced that, oh, you know, Kamala's going to win in Iowa. She's going to sweep. Like, it was. It was crazy to see that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Not to be that confident about things was very strange to watch.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, well, and I think that's why is that, you know, they spent four years patting each other on the back, you know, and even lying to the American people. I don't know if they actually believed it or, you know, it's a snow job or what, but, you know, it's the. No, the economy is great. I don't know what you're talking about. That was Joe Biden, sharp as attack, smartest fucking guy in the room. Like, who the fuck do you think you're convincing that that was crazy. Right? But, yeah, crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

Echo, Charles.

[Echo Charles]

Sometimes it seemed a bit crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

Didn't seem a lot crazy sometimes.

[Echo Charles]

It depends on what you mean. Because you're asking my opinion on it. Yeah, I think that that's how I think this whole thing is entertainment, by the way. I've said that many, many times. So under those circumstances, no, it's not crazy. What's he. What. What else are they gonna say? Is what I would ask, and only in the spirit of you asking me if I think it's crazy. I see what they're doing, and I agree with you that that's what I believe that they're doing as well. But what else are they gonna say? And be like, oh, yeah, Joe Biden, he seems off. He's kind of losing it cognitively. What are they gonna say? Oh, you know what? You're right. You guys are right about that. They're not going to say that. That would be kind of crazy, I think, for them to say that.

[Jocko Willink]

Dude, it's like saying the sky is green, though. Yeah, it's crazy talk.

[Echo Charles]

But if that's the show, that's the show. That's how I see it. So, yeah, no, it was. I mean, I guess under certain circumstances, yeah, it's crazy. But no, the show is crazy. How about that?

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, it's the Truman show in real life.

[Jocko Willink]

So we got your methodologies to escape the echo chamber. Maintain independent thought number one, Take it upon yourself to discern what is and what is not. Be open to the fact that you may already be deep knee and knee deep in and don't even know it. Be honest and don't practice blind allegiance to a political party or news outlet that you can't smell the stench of what you stepped in it to this day, like even in the past several hours, the past couple days, I don't even know what the date is today. It is the 12th of, or 10th December 2024. There were some things that happened in the past, like little while where I thought I didn't even fathom an alternative view. I had like a non unified view. For instance, the CEO of a major health care insurer gets gunned down and killed. And you know, I thought, wow. You know, gun violence, like assassination, lawlessness. Wow, that's, that's crazy. It'll, you know, I'm sure I didn't even, I didn't have the thought of, I wonder what the division will be on this. I didn't have that thought. I didn't have it. I just thought, oh, you know, America, you know, the world will see this and go, wow. Oh, a crazy person has lost their mind and committed a murder. And it didn't take but hours before people were saying, yeah, but this healthcare company, they're bad.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And they are responsible for people's deaths as well. And therefore this guy is a hero. Not just like, hey, I understand it. He's probably got some, been through some real, I mean as soon as I saw a health insurance thing, I was like, oh, this is a guy that either lost a family member or he's in some kind of pain himself and he's going out, but he's gonna, but even with that, you go, that's terrible, you know, horrible, reprehensible thing to do. But no, it didn't take long. There's a complete, there's another branch of people out there that are going, this guy is a hero.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I saw a little clip of a professor at the Penn where this guy went to college. Never been prouder to be a Penn professor. What? What?

[Mike Ritland]

That's an Ivy League professor.

[Jocko Willink]

That's insane.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So there you go. You can be so deep in this that you, you can find something like that happening. And you go, oh yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

But yeah, blinded by your, your allegiance and both sides are guilty. I think, you know, something as simple as, as flying flags with politicians names on them, I think is a problem. I really do. Now do I think it should be illegal? Of course not. But I think, you know, what it does is it speaks to that idolizing of a, of a political candidate. And I think, you know, one of the chapters in there, Jay Z isn't Jesus is, is speaking to that, is that, you know, we, we've idolized our politicians, you know, and, and put them on pedestals as though they are rock stars or a list actors or, you know, entertainers, what have you. And, and it needs to be the exact opposite. Like, we all need to realize, hey, wad, you work for us. Like, we're gonna hold you accountable, not the other way around. Like, you're not going to tell us how things need to be. We're putting the people in those positions that reflect how we feel things should be run. And it doesn't really work that way. You know, whether. And I think social media does play a big and negative role, whether it's AOC on one side or, you know, pick, you know, some of the people on the right that, that fall into that same category with big followings that, you know, are posting on Tick Tock and Instagram. That's funny. You know, it's always, you know, putting funny memes up or little skits that they do and shit like that. I think that's a mistake. While I understand people are trying to gain traction and following and influence and get reelected, the reality of it is is that that position should be considered, you know, A, an honor and B, something where again, you're. You're working for the American people, not the other way around. And it just doesn't seem like most politicians feel that way.

[Jocko Willink]

Another step to avoiding the echo chamber. Spend as much time researching, corroborating, and verifying the information you receive as you do taking it in. Don't just believe something because you want to believe it or because you like the person who is telling you to believe it. If you want to believe it, or you really like the person telling you to believe it, you should be researching even harder, knowing your own propensity towards bias. Yeah. There's a whole legitimate, proven bias that we have. If we like. If I like Mike and he tells me something I like kind of like your idea.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

Which I don't blame you on that one, but yeah. I mean, it's the same echo chamber. You know, if all you watch is one, one media outlet and you never see anybody else's perspective. I mean, if you want to see a kind of classic example of that being highlighted, especially like on election night or anytime something politically divisive is going on, it's like it's a breaking story. Switch back and forth between FOX and cnn, you know, and it's like, am I on the same planet right now?

[Jocko Willink]

Two different movies are.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Watched.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah. It's like, it's crazy. It's like watching two people, you know, that are dancing together, but to two different songs, you know, it's like the going on, you know, but that, that's unfortunately the, the reality in the world that we live in. Where, you know, if I, if I want it to be true, then I'm, I'm gonna think that it is and, or I'm not going to take a lot of consideration or convincing to believe it, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Next one. Listen. Watch and read news from varied sources and outlets. It's important to have as much well rounded perspective as possible. It won't be perfect or unbiased, but it'll be far better than being glued to one fucking channel or media outlet and spoon fed information without taking a deeper look into what's being presented to you. Yeah, this is my man. I picked this up in the military. Like you want to get different sources of intel.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Before you go and hit a freaking target.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Vote with your wallet. If you fundamentally disagree with the basis of a platform, stop using it, don't engage it and don't take park part in creating a demand for it. Hold media outlets accountable and call them out for their dishonesty. Have you gone on to Blue Sky? I haven't, I haven't gone on. I actually, I've looked at a couple profiles on it but just hearing the things that are going on, it seems like it's totally insane. Do you know what Blue sky is? I guess the guy from Twitter went and created something else but now he's gone from it and it's just the level 12 version opposite of X. X is just like free speech. Do what you want, freaking don't hurt anyone. And Blue sky is like, you better be on board with everything and say the right things and you'll get banned. But what's crazy is it's like, you know, perverted stuff happening and well that's what you know, that's my thing. And so therefore it's okay for me to post this craziness.

[Echo Charles]

Like tolerance gone wild.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Tolerance gone wild. Tolerance gone wild. Yeah. But zero tolerance for no tolerance or for lack of tolerance.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Which is a crazy thing. You know what you need to have in a game?

[Mike Ritland]

Rules, rules, rigs, referee.

[Jocko Willink]

You gotta have, you gotta have some rules to the game, man. And if you don't, if you're, if you just, if you stay within the rules, bro, it's good. You can kind of do what you want within the rules. Once you go outside the rules though, you got to get told, don't do that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Don't do that thing. That's not. And I've gone off about this one other time. Just be normal. Like do normal. This is not what you're doing is not normal. And normal can be really big, really wide, and have a, a lot of things in it. But then you go across a certain line. Now this is not what you're doing is not normal. You can't do that thing.

[Mike Ritland]

I feel like the bumper sticker for that is just read the room. I mean, get some T shirts made up, I mean, whatever, but Read the room.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, read the room, man. Take a look around.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

One of these things is not like the other. Yeah, well, I'm different. Okay, you can be a little bit different.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, Yeah. I guess that's the issue with the normal thing. It's like, well, what's normal? Blah, blah. But you know. But I do what you're saying there.

[Jocko Willink]

Is like a certain, like bell curve you could put together.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Fully.

[Jocko Willink]

You can do from here to here. But you can't go over there. You can't go over there.

[Echo Charles]

But at what point, I guess, and I'm not asking this, I'm saying this is kind of the question, I guess, is at what point did you go past the guardrails? You know, like, I know you, Brad, you believe in guardrails, but your guardrails is per. Relax, bro. I know that. You know that. But it's like, well, what's the. The, you know, prescriptive guard rail positioning for everyone.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And so it's got to be kind of flexible in some way. And then who's to say. Wait a second, he can flex that much, but I can't flex like this much? Like, what's the difference? You know, kind of a thing. And then it's like, well, it kind of degenerates from there.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, but you got to be like, no, that thing you just did. No, that's over the line. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And actually. Which kind of gives a lot more credence, even. Which I know, I know you, you're at least partially serious with the read the room thing where it kind of.

[Mike Ritland]

Is that little bit.

[Echo Charles]

Cuz there's a lot of stuff like that you can kind of say in certain rooms. And it's like, who cares? Or whatever. And it's all good even. And it can be pretty inflammatory, but in other rooms you can say way less inflammatory stuff. And it's like, bro, you shouldn't have said that, bro. It's not appropriate. You see what I'm saying?

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So, yeah, you got to read the room. You got to be knowledgeable in that way. I'm saying it's like.

[Mike Ritland]

It's like what you guys talk about before the camera's on versus when the camera.

[Echo Charles]

It's a very good example, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

Don't take it upon yourself to regurgitate everything you hear. I really like this one. Don't hit the share or Forward button within 30 seconds of skimming an article or watching a video. Doing so only furthers a biased agenda and creates more of a divide. Some things need to be said, some information needs to be shared, but a whole shitload of it doesn't be discerning. Dude, people like to just freaking hit share.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah. Before they even finish reading the article. It's like the. Not reading the. The instructions or directions on a high school test or whatever that like the last thing says, don't even fill this thing out. You know, and. And nobody did it. And they filled the whole thing out. And you know. Yeah. It's just, you know, again, it goes back to. Similarly to the echo chamber, I think is. And the corroboration of things is, you know, if you. If it's one. One site that's like Sky News Network underground, you know, whatever dot com, and that's your source, it's probably, you know, like, I'm not saying that even mainstream media doesn't perpetuate, but, you know, if. If you're only getting it from one thing and you're not really looking into it and you just share it, like all that's doing is is furthering the problem.

[Jocko Willink]

One thing that this makes me think about is the idea that people think that they have to have a formulated and solidified opinion about everything that's freaking going on.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I. There's so many things where I have an idea, but it's not fully formulated and it's certainly not solidified about what's happening. And there's. There's a temptation to get in that game of like, oh, something happened. Let me tell you what I think. Let me tell you what I know. And it's like, dude, what do you know right now? What does anybody know? There's another thing I brought back from like, combat. Oh. Reports are coming in that. Whatever. It's like, cool. That's the first report and it's about to change 19 times before we know what the hell is going on.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

I think it begs the bigger question of. Of why are people like that, you know, is. You know, why. Why do so many people feel so starved to be heard for certain things that if you kind of think about It. It's like, who gives a shit what what you think or even what anybody thinks about this? And I think, you know, unfortunately, we're a victim of our own success as a society and even as a species, really. If you think about human history as. As we know it, you know, I mean, who knows, pyramids and before, you know, whatever. But we'll say from, from when the Greeks were at the height until present day, the human experience is by far the easiest it's ever been right now in terms of survival, threats, predators, food, scarcity, disease. And so, you know, I think the, the human experience, condition, what have you, is designed to. To struggle, to need something. To overcome, to need something to. To. To be fighting against and, And. And, you know, be challenged over. If that doesn't exist, we're gonna make it up. You will make it up, you know, even if it's in your own twisted brain. And I think when you couple that with physically not doing because you don't need to, and being raised on red dye number five and high fructose corn syrup like that perfect storm of horribleness is why you have people that, that are that batshit crazy about things that don't even make sense, let alone, you know, really warrant somebody being upset about.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

Because they don't have anything else to feel passionate about, you know, And I mean, we've. I know I've had plenty of guests on. I know you have too. When you talk about the transitions from. From the military and it's not the experience that guys usually struggle with, it's going through those things and then now being in a vacuum of purpose, of having no real reason to get up every day. And then that's when you get depressed and when experiences that you've been through manifest into. Into problematic mind frames. And so when you have, you know, all of those things kind of going on together, you have again, just this perfect storm of, Of a petri dish of. Of. Of horribleness from our society. And, and, you know, so I think if. If people just had a reason to get up and be passionate about something that didn't involve pronouns or, you know, blue hair or, I mean, whatever. Abortion. I mean, like, there's so many things that. That, you know, I find myself thinking, like if that's the worst part of your day, things really aren't that bad. You know, like if somebody isn't calling you by whatever pronoun you. You need to be called by, like that that's your oppression or, you know, the thing that you're fighting against. You got things pretty easy. Like you were born with a winning lottery ticket in your mouth and you should probably just shut up and be grateful.

[Jocko Willink]

So when it comes to the next chapter in this book. Book, it's about parenting and it's called who the hell raised these Kids?

[Mike Ritland]

Not you two apparently.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Your daughters are old, what?

[Mike Ritland]

19 and 18 right now.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I, I was very cautious cuz it's been when we start this podcast. Eight years ago, something like that.

[Echo Charles]

Nine.

[Jocko Willink]

Nine years ago. So like when we started this podcast, my oldest kid was like 14.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Or no, sorry, 16. And youngest was freaking six. And so I was real cautious about saying anything about parenting because I was like, dude, the jury ain't out yet, bro. Like who knows what's gonna happen? These kids, you know, you don't know what's gonna happen. But yeah, I think you can, you can. At your kids age 18 and 20. My oldest is 24, 5. You get a pretty good feel for the trajectory.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Of their lives. And you know, obviously when, when, when you put this book together, you got start talking about some of the rules that you set up and, or some of the guidance that you, you give. And I think start with this one right here. Give kids independence and let them fall on their ass sometimes. So thing that I say is let your kids brush up against the guardrails of failure. The car is going to get a little dinged up. No one's going to get hurt. They're going to learn how to drive.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I also tell people a lot, treat your kids as adult as you possibly can. So like as much as you can, let them do, the more responsibility you give them, the more responsible they become. And if you let them make that peanut butter and jelly sandwich when they're five years old and it's going to take 20 minutes and there's going to be freaking jelly on the counter and there's going to be peanut butter on the floor and it's just going to be a mess and then it's going to take them 20 minutes to clean up. So it's a 40 minute evolution which you could have done with one hand in like one minute and be clean and carry on with the day. You're giving them so much more education in life and so much more self reliance and you start doing that not just with peanut butter and jelly sandwiches but with the laundry and with, with the, the freaking school lunch and the breakfast in the morning and the taking out the garbage, like all those little things that you allow them, the responsibility is going to make them that much better off, and sometimes they're going to mess it up, and that's going to be cool.

[Mike Ritland]

I agree. And I. I would kind of dovetail onto your 2nd Platoon OIC's lesson of now we don't have to do it, but is it the right thing to do? Like that, I think, is Parenting 101. Now, granted, they have to get to a certain age before you can implement that. Yeah. But once they do, I think you should all the time. You know, it's like, I don't really feel like going to school today. Maybe that's not the best example. But. But as a. As a hypothetical, it's like, you could not go. Is that the right thing to do? Do you think that that's going to serve you well? Yeah. Okay, do it then. Stay home. See what happens. Would I necessarily do that? Maybe. Maybe I have, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I'll tell you one part of my parenting advice that I tell people all the time is if you can get your kids out of school for some reason, do it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If you can take them to work, if you can take them on a trip, if you can take them to the thing, whatever. You got to go downtown and get permits from the city about the fence that you're going to build in the backyard, and you can take your kids to go do that. Go do it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Get them out of that school. And if you can take them to do something cool, even better.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And that's going to be awesome. And to. But to. To the point that you're making. I think a lot of times what kids mess up or what kids don't connect is they don't connect what's happening right now to their future.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because they think, you know, what I'm doing right now, eventually everything's going to be cool. So I did. I did Career Day. I did Career Day back in the day, many moons ago. And, you know, I was going to talk about being in the Navy, like, okay, this is what you do. And, dude, who doesn't want to hear about being in the Navy, being a seal, about going to war, about carrying a machine gun, about shooting machine guns, about blowing things up, about jumping out of airplanes, about scuba. I got my slideshow. It's got scuba, it's got freaking Draegers, it's got parachuting, it's got, you know, cool stuff.

[Mike Ritland]

Hype.

[Jocko Willink]

Hype. So I roll in there, and these kids were. I guess the age is maybe around sixth grade. It's like 12, maybe seventh grade. So I roll in there. And by the way, you know, I like, I'm in the team, so I'm talking to people on a regular basis. All good. I'm not like a boring speaker, right? So I roll in there, and I had to do it five times. So they broke career day up and, like, they were going to their classroom and come in for 20 minutes or 25 minutes or something. I present to the little class, Present to the little class. Present to the little class. And I'm in the same classroom the whole time. The first one I do, I'm sitting there like, all right, everyone, my name is Lieutenant Commander Jocko Willink. I'm in the SEAL teams, blah, blah, blah, blah. I. I'm looking at the crowd, I'm reading the room, dude. They don't give a shit. They don't care about anything that I'm saying. Like, even the one kid that has like a Marines T shirt on or something, he's like, doesn't care. No one cares. And I'm, okay, next slide, parachuting. Like, no one cares. And so I do the first one, and I'm trying to explain to them, no, no one really cares. I escalate the next one. You know, like, well, what are you going to do? What do you want to do with your life? By the time I get to the last one of the day, I'm saying, hey, listen up, kids, here's the deal. There's 20. There's 30 of you in this room. You fast forward 15 years from right now, Some of you kids are going to own three houses. One in the mountains, one by the beach, and one out in the desert. You're gonna spend time wherever you want. Three of you are gonna have one house. You're lucky. You're gonna be here in San Diego. You're gonna. You're gonna have a good job. You're gonna have a house. Some of you are gonna have a condo. Some of you gonna have an apartment. Some of you aren't gonna have an apartment. Some of you are gonna still be living at home. Some of you are gonna be living in a car. And there's two of you kids in this room right now that are gonna be living under the.

[Mike Ritland]

At 12.

[Jocko Willink]

And it all starts with the decisions that you're making right now. This is where it starts. The decisions that you're making right now. So that's my point, is that kids don't recognize that the decisions that they're making right now connect to where they're going to end up. In the future for sure.

[Mike Ritland]

And I think that's the litmus that I. Even if it's subconsciously use, is if it's a. If it's a decision that's going to be a detriment to their future. Like, I'm not going to let you that up, obviously.

[Jocko Willink]

Obviously.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yep.

[Mike Ritland]

You know, if it's something that, you know, yeah. It may be a pain in your ass or, you know, it may be embarrassing or, you know, whatever, then, yeah. I'll ask you, hey, do you really think that's a good idea? Can you, you know, can you sell me on why that's a good idea? Okay, well, do it then, and we'll see what happens, you know, but, yeah, I think there's. There's too much helicoptering and, and not enough. I mean, look, the. The reality is, like, I would rather my kids make these mistakes while I can keep them between those guardrails and they can learn from it, versus the first time they've ever had the autonomy to make a bad decision is when they're 19 and living somewhere else. And now the. The repercussions are astronomical. You know, that I don't want, you know, and I think too many. Too many parents raise their kids that way.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And you're going to learn that through those consequences. Right. If your kids are doing. If your kids are making mistakes and there's no consequences for them, it's going to be a problem. And the examples that you were talking about, like, oh, your kid, you know, is in school and they get in trouble with the teacher and they come home, you know, oh, I. I, you know, I got. I got a zero on this test. Well, why? Well, you know, we. She didn't tell us about the test. Are you serious? She didn't tell you about the test? I'm gonna go in there and talk to her, and we'll get you that grade upgraded. And instead of being like, oh, well, you didn't hear about the test. You're telling me that she gets. You tell me the whole class. No one knew about the test. That's what's happening. Like, well, no. Okay, so what do you got to do? Because what's your grade right now? It's a C minus. Okay, so what do you get when you get a C minus? Like, how's your world look when you get a C minus? Are there privileges that you lose? Another nice thing I learned in boot camp and officer candidate school. Privileges. You don't realize what privileges are. Echo. Charles, when you're a kid, you don't realize. Don't give me that look. You don't realize that there's privileges that you have when you're a kid. You don't realize that it's a privilege.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You don't realize the depth. You don't realize the depth. You don't realize that a light in your room is privilege. You don't realize that a TV is privilege. You don't realize that an iPad is privileged. You don't realize that Hair. Hair. You've heard. You've heard the story. Hair is a privilege that you don't necessarily. You are not necessarily granted that hair. And, boy, I caught some shit for that. Somebody clipped up that thing of me saying, telling a story, but they clipped it out in a way, because when I said that to my daughter, my daughter had already been in trouble.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it wasn't. Again, she didn't do anything freaking crazy, but she had gone outside the bounds. And I tightened her up. She was in trouble. And so then as I was. Took away privileges from her, you know, phone privilege, because she was probably 14, 15, so she had the phone. Took away the phone privilege, you know, took away the computer in your room privilege. Took away the no curfew privilege, because I didn't have curfews for my kids. And, you know, and whatever, a couple other things. Right. But then. And then later, I'm joking with her, you know, as the privileges are coming back, you know, I'm like, okay, well, you know, hey, like, remember, you know, and. And this was, you know, pretty harsh, but it could be much worse. Well, how could it be worse, dad? Well, you still have a door on your room, which I think was awesome. Right? A door on your room is a privilege. A mattress, you know, bedding, a pillow. And then, you know, jokingly, I said, and hair, you know, and my daughter laughed and got the message.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because it really is. It is a privilege. Like all the. Everything in life when you're a kid is a privilege. So. So when you can utilize those things to be removed from the situation, you can be in a pretty rough. You can be in a pretty rough spot, and you can realize, oh, I am thankful and I have gratitude for these things that I have. But you can utilize those as a parent to help them learn lessons. Take away some of those privileges, and the privileges can be given back. But those things happen in life. And like you said, you can do. You can make mistakes when you're 19 years old. Well, you can give up the privilege of freedom. You can give up the Privilege of a future. You can give up the. The privilege of being able to walk.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

By doing dumb.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

And I. I think to. That. I think the key with communicating that to kids and. And really I think anybody is. Is staying calm. You know, is where I think a lot of parents and myself when they were younger absolutely fell into that category is. Is raising your voice, losing your temper, like, becoming visibly angry about it, because that's when they stop listening, you know, Whereas is if you're, like, completely unemotional and you're like, okay, well, I guess I'm taking this from you. And if you get this, then you'll get it back. Any questions? Nope. All right. Like, if you say it that calmly, it's like. Like, he's not yelling at me. He's not mad. Like, he. He's indifferent. You know, it's like, that's the best way to. To communicate that because they'll. They'll actually listen, and then now they're not taking it personal, and they'll actually hear it and reflect on it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So we got asked on underground podcast, somebody asked about spanking kids, right? And so I was, like, looking at the questions, and I was at home, and I was looking at the questions. I was like, oh, well, no, I don't really spank my kids. And it's pick my kids. And. And then my kids were home. I was like, wait, I want to make sure, you know, confirm, because I don't want to be out here lying to the masses. And so my wife and my kids were sitting around downstairs, and. And I came downstairs and I was like, hey, I. I've got asked if I spanked, but I didn't spank you guys, right? And they're all like, nope, nope. My wife's like, nope. And then they started with, like, if my son ended up saying, I wished you would have spanked us, it would have been easier. It would have been less psychologically damaging. And we were all laughing because I would, like, just. Just either I had a couple protocols. I mean, obviously the privileges. But the other thing, I was just, like, not talk to them. Like, one of my. If my kids were out of line, it would just be like, you know, you did the perfectly calm thing. I would just be like, totally shun them for three days. It's. I don't recommend the three days worth of shunning. I think it's too much.

[Mike Ritland]

Maybe one day.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, maybe a day worth of shunning. But there's. I would, like, be at the dinner table and, you know, the salt would be on the other side of the kid that's being shunned. And I would ask the other kid, you know, hey, pass me the salt. And just like, act like they're not there. Total sorry, kids.

[Mike Ritland]

I wish you would have whipped us. Take your belt off.

[Jocko Willink]

And you, you mentioned this whole idea in a section. Create an environment for learning life lessons at home. That's what we just talked about. Don't raise a victim. How do you prevent that?

[Mike Ritland]

So, I mean, to me, the, there's a couple things, I mean, number one is don't reinforce it. You know, if you coddle and set up an environment and reinforce that type of behavior, then, you know, one of, one of my favorite quotes by the godfather of operant conditioning, B.F. skinner, as it relates to dog training is anything that's reinforced is likely to occur again. It's true everywhere, not just in dog training, but, you know, so if you create an environment where people are rewarded for being a victim, you know, and there's no consequence for doing anything wrong, you're, you're creating that, you know, I mean, you're, you're reinforcing that victim mentality. And that's just going to carry further and further into adult life where there's going to come a time where it's going to be the, or get off the pot moment and, and, and nobody's going to give a shit, you know, what they went through growing up or, you know, what they had to deal with at this point in their life, or, you know, what person broke their heart or what financial, you know, hardships they're having or what have you. And, and I think the sooner you do that, the better off the, the kid's going to be. And there's never going to be that almost purgatory of, of entitlement.

[Jocko Willink]

There is a certain, you got to figure out that time in life where you realize that you have agency and you can take control of what's happening. And look, there's going to be some things that are not in your control. We get that. But at a certain point, you go, oh, I made this mistake, and this is why I'm in this situation right now. I'll tell you what, the U.S. navy drives that home real loud and clear. In even something as simple as boot camp. You're like, oh, I made this mistake. Now I am paying the man. And that just escalates through SEAL training is like, oh, I made this mistake and now I'm paying the man. Or I prepared, I planned, I was ready. We Executed, got the job done. Now I'm in a good spot. And that applies to everything in life.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so if you can set conditions like that for your kid so that when they do the right thing, the good outcomes, and you let them know that the outcome is because they were prepared and put forth effort, and when things don't go their way, it's like, oh, oh, you didn't know about the test, huh? And that's the teacher's fault. Nope, that's not the teacher's fault. That is 100% your fault. And even if it is the teacher's fault, what can you do about it? You're gonna petition to have the teacher fired? The teacher's not getting fired. The teachers union owns the state. It's not happening. So what are you gonna do? You going to continue with a bad grade? No. You have to figure out what you can do to fix this situation.

[Mike Ritland]

And to me, there's a really critical component of that consequence part, which is being consistent and following through. Because that's where I see a lot of people, and I've been in situations with my kids in their teenage years where I'm not going to say that I'm better than. Than other parents, but I would just say that most parents would have folded and said, okay, no, you know what? Stop. Let's figure this out. Like, come here and not let them do what they were saying it. I'll do this then.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, give me a good example.

[Mike Ritland]

I'll do it. Off. Off. Okay. There's too much personal information to share it, so I'll share it. Off.

[Jocko Willink]

Leif Babin has a good example of that. Where his. He was telling his daughter, like, they were in Texas somewhere, where there's, like, little stickers in the grass or in the yard.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And his daughter's like, you know, he's like, hey, put your. Put your flip flops on. Think I don't want to. Hey, put your flip flops on. And I want to, like, put your flip flops on right now. No. Okay.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And Liberty's little girl goes running across the yard, and sure enough, she made it. Whatever it was, five steps. It's like, hey, you know, so that's a perfect example.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

She's not going to die. She's not even going to get injured. She's going to have some little pain.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But she's going to get that lesson learned.

[Mike Ritland]

Well, yeah. And I think, you know, an older example where, where there's going to be more of that. Like, in that case not that it's not a good example, but there's really no skin in the game for life. Like, he's not losing anything by that. Let's say fast forward to, hey, if something happens and if it continues or you don't remedy this, you're not going to prom. It's like, okay, well, I want you to go to prom. Like, I want you to have that experience. I would love for there to be pictures. Like, I want you to have that as part of your high school experience, you know, so something happens to where the deal was. If you don't satisfy this requirement, you're not going to prom. That doesn't happen a lot of times. Well, okay, but we'll figure something else out. But, you know, it's like, no, you don't get to go. Yeah, I, I will use one example for that. My kids were probably 7 and 9 at the height of Halloween being varsity. Varsity activity. Damn, dude, they're dressed up. We're ready to go. Halloween's canceled. Sit the back down. You're not going out because you lied to, to your mom and I, like, straight to our face about something important. So we're going to sit here and have a come to Jesus for 20 minutes. You can take the off and we're not going out. Like, that sucked.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

You know, like there's. I mean, I love Halloween. Love going out with the kids, especially at that age when it's magic and we didn't. You know, I will say there's times where, like, I still feel bad about that, but, you know, it's like, you know, and. And so I would say, let that also caution you is that don't have a consequence. Be something that's going to kick you in the dick so much to where if you have to follow through with it, you're like, man. And you regret it, you know, so, you know, be. Be strategic.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. One time my son did something that was not approved, and he was a pretty little kid, and I went a little too hard in the paint, and I put him on a very Spartan protocol for life. And it was very, very Spartan. And he was maybe 6 or 7, and it was like very strict wake up protocols, you know, room inspections. Like, I really went hard on him and removed basically all privileges as a child. And. And it. You hurt. It sucked, you know, like, you know, but I was doing it. And so then he slowly. And so I had said to him, like, look, I have to be strict with you because, you know, this is. This is not going to be good. For you in the long run, I got to be strict with you. And so little kid, you know, he understood, okay, this is what strict is. And then as, as I, as he earned privileges back and, you know, got his stuff back and started living a more normal childhood life. And then something happened and, and you know, he did something a little bit, you know, brushing up against the guardrails a little bit. And I was like, hey, listen, do you want me to have to be strict again? And he looked at me, little kid, and he goes, maybe that's what's going to be best for me. And I was like, oh my God. I was like, oh no, this poor kid. I created a freaking monster. Maybe that's what's best for me.

[Mike Ritland]

Oh, that's great. Sexy. That's gnarly.

[Jocko Willink]

That was like the first time I, you know, he asked for a haircut and so I shaved his head and I got done and I go, okay, all done. And he goes, he looks at me and goes, do I look more like a soldier now? And I was like, I got a tear in my non shooting eye. Oh, it was classic. All right, so you go through, you already talked about the Jay Z isn't Jesus type stuff, but you go into this personal protocol and this is sort of the meat of the book. And I don't want to get into every subject that you cover, but you cover this protocol for assessing important issues and subjects. And so I don't want to go through all of them, but I want to talk about your protocol that you use. You say, I'd like to offer four cornerstone principles that can be used as a guide for assessing and approaching any important subject issue a problem. If every individual implemented the practice of utilizing these principles, I think we'd see a lot of change. It's a four step process. Here's how it works. Number one, remove emotions. Number two, remove politics. Number three, mind your own business. And number four, hold yourself to the same or higher standard that you hold others to. That's it. So, so talk to me a little bit about this protocol. What are we doing with this protocol?

[Mike Ritland]

Well, you know, so the, I would say the backbone of it is, is removing the, the predispositions that I think inhibit us to be able to have conversations with people that we disagree with or that we're trying to, you know, raise, you know, children wise, et cetera. If you look at, you know, all of the divisive things that take place our country and you, you follow those four things, like how many of those actually are problems that people are arguing about now. Like pick any political hotbed topic that you've seen in the last, say six or eight months leading up to the, the election and put them through that, that ringer first. And, and do you still have an argument?

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Mike Ritland]

No. You know, so, and I think not necessarily in that order, but number four, especially politically, you know, now all of them I think are important, whether you're talking with neighbors, you know, again, kids, people in your community, the higher up you go, I think the more you kind of need to go in reverse order, but especially in politics, you know, and both sides are horribly guilty of this is my guy did it and I'm gonna look the other way and that's fine. But at the second your guy does it, like we're gonna shine a interrogation lamp on him and we're going to spend three weeks talking about it, you know, and it's like, you know, take, I mean, pick, pick a topic and that's the case, you know, so again, I just think like if everybody going into anything that they're pissed off about or that they, that they're trying to argue with somebody about, if you go through that checklist a nine times out of 10, you're not even going to have the argument with somebody because that's going to remove. You're going to realize I'm wasting my time and I'm a hypocrite. If it does lead to that, you're at least going into it with all of those boxes checked, saying, okay, well there's no, no emotion, there's no politics in it. You know, I'm holding my, my side to the same standard and you know that's going to get rid of it. So even if you do end up still getting in an argument with somebody, you've kind of taken so much of the teeth out of it to where now you can just have an actual discussion about it and not sit there just screaming at each other where neither side is listening to one another.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, don't get emotional about it, which is very difficult because some people are hyper emotional about things and sometimes it's a good reason. You know, sometimes like some, somebody was on welfare when they were a kid and so therefore welfare is a hugely important thing and they're super emotional about it. So you got to be like, okay, got to remove that emotion, remove the political. Well, I'm right wing and right wing is against welfare, so I'm against welfare. So let's get rid of that. Mind your own business. How does that apply into the Welfare thing. I just.

[Mike Ritland]

Well, so to me, I mean, I guess from a welfare standpoint, it's, you know, if it doesn't affect you, then don't worry about it, you know. And again, how many. How many things like take abortion as probably the most classic example of that is, you know, or gay marriage or. I mean, there's. There are a litany of different things to where it's like, you know, take one step back again, get rid of the emotion in politics and then ask yourself, like, does this matter to you? Like, does. Does it really affect you if it doesn't. If it's somebody else doing something that they. They like, they're passionate about and it doesn't impact you, then stop fucking worrying about it. You know, too many times people, you know, whether it's in communities or on a national level, you know, whether it's your neighbor or, you know, at a federal level, is that people are pissed and worried about things that. That don't really affect them, you know, but they'll die on that hill. They'll sit there and spend hours arguing with somebody about it. They'll get emotional about it and they'll let it, you know, border on control their life for something that. That doesn't even have any relevance. You know, I actually got in trouble for telling somebody to mind his own business on. On social media a couple years ago, which is a whole nother story. But it was funny because it. Somebody. There's a ton of comments asking like, oh, where is it in your book where it says mind your own business? I was like, page 91 on this paragraph. And, and yeah, that's a funny story. I'll show. Share it with you after. After. After a show, probably.

[Jocko Willink]

But yeah, one of the other things I was thinking about this as I was reading it was really trying to understand what the other person's perspective is. And this, again, this is something I picked up. Like if you and I were planning for a mission and you were like, I think we should hit the target from the south.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I'm like, I think we should hit it from the north. Instead of me thinking, I'm right, you're wrong. I'm like, okay, why does he want it? Okay, why is. Why do you think it's better to hit it from the south? You're like, well, we're getting inserted over here. There's possible IED over here. There's a bad terrain feature over here. And look at this, like, nice little high ground we can take to overwatch as we move in. From the South. I'm like, oh, actually that makes pretty good sense. Or I say, hey, you know what? That's all good, Mike. What I forgot to tell you is that there's going to be a fire mission that's going to be going to the South. I didn't tell you that. It's my fault. So we can't actually come. Oh, okay, cool. So now we have a real conversation. But I actually want to know why you think that's better. And I think if you can do that normally, you can at least find some level of. Of understanding of that other person's perspective. All the way down to you almost. I was kind of doing it a little bit when we were just talking about this killer, this murderer of the CEO of United Healthcare, because I immediately almost went into like, hey, listen, that guy probably has a family member that suffered this and that. The thing is, with that particular case, you go, even with that perspective, even with that perspective, I. I can't say, yep, go ahead and murder the CEO of the company like it did. There's. That doesn't work. But most of the time, in many cases, unless the person is crazy or like I've often said, like, hey, unless you're ISIS or like dyed in the wool communist, like, I'm going to be able to figure out some little common ground that we have somewhere, right? Like, we're able to figure something out. But if you're in this case, it's like, oh, now you're going to murder a person in cold blood? That's. It's not okay. But most of the time it's like, oh, here's what you think. Oh, you believe in welfare, or you believe in whatever the thing is, right? You believe in whatever the thing I offer. Okay, well, I understand. I at least have some comprehension of what you're. Where you're coming from. And in my mind, I actually try and figure out how I can help make them right. I actually want to believe what you're telling me when you tell me some political opinion. And I'm like, dude, this guy's an idiot. I immediately know that that's my ego, it's my emotions, it's my politics. And I go, okay, stop, listen, and try and figure out how Mike can be right about this particular topic that he's talking about. How can I, how can I agree with him?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I work my ass off to try and figure that out. And most of the time what I figured out is like, you know what? This opinion that I have not fully formulated and probably shouldn't be stabilized yet, probably shouldn't be poured concrete. There should probably least some room to breathe. Because the world is a crazy, complex place. You know, you and I talked about on the podcast, on your podcast, the amount of variables that are in war. And that's the same thing with so many complex topics that there are, that why would you pour your. Your. Your opinion into concrete and have no ability to maneuver.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

One of the things I say in there, not on that page, but later in the book is listen to understand, not to respond, you know, which is huge. And I think, I think Jordan Peterson does a. An exercise in his couples therapy where he says, you know, if you're in an argument with your spouse, he'll have them flip sides, you know, and say, okay, now you're arguing her point to you, and vice versa, you know, to really force you to understand where that other person is coming from. Which is pretty, Pretty brilliant. But I don't know how well it would work in some cases. I can see that going off the rails pretty quick, but. Well, the reason I think that is because I'm a fucking idiot. I just. Start bagging on yourself.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, listening is, is. I always explain that listening is one of the absolute most underrated skills in being in leadership, and it's also the cornerstone of building relationships with people, is listening what they have to say. As a matter of fact, again, when I was on your podcast, one of the questions from the audience was, you know, what do you do with someone that's not listening to you? And very quickly I responded, you listen to them.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If someone's not listening, you need to listen to them, find out what's going on. The more you listen to them, the more likely they are to listen to you. And 99 of the cases in the world, when you start listening to someone and taking notes on what they're saying and trying to incorporate their view using the things, they will eventually start listening to you. Is there one. There's a. It's not even 1%. It's like.001%. That's just a freaking lunatic. Yeah, you probably don't. If you're listening to this right now and you're thinking, oh, you see, I knew it. I knew that guy was the guy that wasn't gonna listen and I should just beat him down like, no, yeah, that. You don't have that person. That person doesn't even function in society normally.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

For you, in those environments, is there a, a statement that you use typically to open that door to Listen. Or is it just totally dependent on the person, the topic, the. The situation?

[Jocko Willink]

I might say, like, dude, what's, what's wrong? And I'll, I'll. Generally speaking, Trying to take some kind of an ownership. Ownership of the situation. Like, hey, Mike, I don't think I'm doing a good job of understanding your perspective. Can you tell me what you're thinking right now? If it's your kids. Hey, listen, kid, I can see that you're mad right now. Obviously, I'm not understanding what's going on. Can you explain to me what your viewpoint is? If it's your spouse? Hey, darlin, I can see that this is. I'm not doing a good job of understanding what's happening. Can you share with me if it's your boss? Hey, boss, obviously I've done something that was out of line. I want to know what that is. Can you help me see it? Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong? You see what I'm saying? It's just like asking and, and taking ownership of the fact that you're not comprehending what's going on.

[Mike Ritland]

That makes sense.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's a, a good way to do that. And like, then to your point, or I guess you made via Jordan Peterson, the intention of listening isn't then to come up with a response. The intention of listening is to nod your head, get out your freaking notebook, dude. I used to do that when I was in the teams. Like, some buddy comes to me with some problem. I'm getting out my notebook. Get out my notebook. I'm gonna write down what the hell you're saying.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you're going to know like, damn, dude, the boss is taking notes on what's going on. That's a pretty positive thing, isn't it?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I really like these protocols running through, Running things through these protocols so that you can actually freaking calm down and understand things better. And, and you do it. Did you apply this methodology in the book? You cover a bunch of topics from borders to guns to the economy to a bunch of social issues to foreign policy to environment. You cover it all and you kind of break it down and show these different perspectives. And I think that's a good methodology for actually teaching people how to do this when they get to watch you do it throughout the book, which is freaking solid. And then you get into the last, the last chapter of this book, which is very uniquely titled. You. You say this. That's why I want to end this book by sharing with you a handful of things that you can put into practice immediately in your own life. All of these things, all of these are things that I strive to practice in my own life. They are things that I have seen proven time and time again to have a positive impact both in the lives of individuals as well as society at large. I am by no means perfect or feel that I have arrived at any of these points. But if you. But you can bet your ass that I wake up every day doing what I can to progress, grow and learn.

[Mike Ritland]

Most days.

[Jocko Willink]

Most days, the first thing you talk about is shift your mentality. In many ways, this book has been all about shifting mentality and perspective. The word mentality is defined as the characteristic of attitude or way of thinking a person, of a person or a group. All of us should make it our mission to pursue independent and informal thinking, to check and recheck our mentality about ourselves and the world around us constantly. It is a journey that each of us will be on for life. There are two mental shifts that I believe can do the most good in your life as an individual and as a society. And the first one is think for yourself. And dude, this is what. It's weird. I remember when I was a kid and I was always liked war and like to learn about war and study war. And, you know, I remember even as a little kid watching like, PBS shows about the Nazis and you would see the Germans and you would see like, the mass hypnosis of the people, like all freaking Sig heiling tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. And it seemed for many, many years of my life, it seemed like a unique thing. Like a thing where it's like, oh, dude, this. That guy, Adolf Hitler had some freaking kind of magical power. He had some kind of charisma. And then you learn a little bit more like, oh, it's also because the German economy had been crashed so bad. So that's another reason why the people were kind of down for the cause. Oh, and then also you learn that after the Treaty of Versailles, the German people, like, they felt like they got screwed in that whole gym. So now they're even more down for the cause. So by the time Hitler comes around, like, you just have this. This mass of people unique in human history that was ready to get on board with the program. But, man, in the last, like, several years, it's become much more obvious how just completely pliable people's minds are. And the only reason that we don't have a mass movement like that unified right now is because there's just all These little mini mass movements that are going all the time and people are freaking scrolling through their phone and they're getting sucked down to that algorithm thing, and next thing you know, they're on some weird freaking belief system that's crazy. That's leading them to become angry and frustrated and psycho. And the, the Nazis did that to a whole bunch of people at the same time. They happen to unify that message and they got them all going. But it's, it's, it's sad to see this happening now with all these little offshoots that you can go down and you can get wrapped up into these, these rabbit holes where you're not thinking for yourself anymore.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, well, and I think again, it speaks to the, the lack of purpose that so many people have, you know, is that they, they don't really have anything that they're that passionate about. You know, and when you don't have that, again, like we said, you know, you'll, you'll figure something out. Your, your mind and body will, will gravitate towards something. And the problem is, is that, you know, that passion needs to be real. It needs to be, you know, an ignited fire kind of coming from your soul. And if it's something that's trivial, then it's going to seem ridiculous, because it is. But, you know, it doesn't mean that you're any less passionate about it. It's just what you're being passionate about is, is a pretty trivial thing, you know, but to you, it's all relative. It doesn't feel trivial because that's, that's what your thing is. And so I agree it's, it's an alarming time to see. Or it makes more sense now where it's like, okay, now I get how Nazi Germany happened. And I think a lot of people have kind of come to that realization over the last few years of, of seeing, you know, people, you know, when Trump was, was shot, I mean, a good portion of the country, you know, was like, wish, wish they would have hit him. It's like, what, you know, it's like, I, I don't like Biden. I don't want to see him get assassinated. You know, like, what am I missing? Like, how's there that many people that are okay with that? You know, and same with the, the healthcare CEO, same thing. Like, there's, you know, there's probably not. Probably there's always going to be a portion of the population that cheers those things that, you know, is, is okay with that and applause or applauds something like that. But it seems like the, the balance is so far tipped now to where there's so many people that are okay with dehumanizing people that they disagree with over some of the littlest things that they're. They're, you know, it's like they're now an inanimate object almost, and they could care less. There's no kind of human connection to, to that person because, well, they don't believe what I believe. And so they could have their head cut off and I wouldn't care. It's. It's frightening.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. My. When I was growing up, my dad's a real conservative guy and one like real conservative. And one of our family friends was old, like crazy, what we would call like a crazy liberal guy. And we had dinner with this family a thousands, thousands of times growing up. And my dad and this guy who were on absolute opposite ends of the political spectrum would freaking sit there all night and argue and make fun of each other and bring up facts and go at each other's throats metaphorically. And at the end of the night, you know, I have a good night. We'll see you tomorrow. Like, and, and that just. I don't think that really happens anymore.

[Mike Ritland]

It doesn't. And I do wonder or I suspect that social media and the Internet's played an enormous role in that. For the simple fact that, that, that and kind of the political correction over correction of not being able to handle things the old fashioned way. Like, it was interesting. My Uber driver on the way here was from Chechnya. We of course got to talking about Dagestan and wrestling and fighting and the differences between, you know, I'm like interviewing this guy on the way here, but, but it, you know, our society, where does he train? He, he doesn't train here. You probably, you may see him coming through victory doors here pretty soon, but.

[Jocko Willink]

Could use some of that.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, well, he had, he fought twice, won one two amateur fights in Chechnya. And you know, he's like, in Chechnya, growing up, like, you either wrestle or you do judo. That's part of school for everybody's like, boys, you do one or the other and, and there is no choice and just the, the stark contrast between the two societies. But he was saying one of the things that surprised him the most here because we read a stoplight and somebody like pulled out and somebody was honking and flipping them off and, and yelling out the window. And he's like, that never ever happens in Chechnya. He's like, nobody talks to each other, nobody flips anybody off. He's like, like, if you flip somebody off, you, you better be ready to fight right now. And nobody gives a, you know, it's like people knock each other's teeth out for mouthing off or for flipping each other off or whatever. He just doesn't happen. He's like in, in, in Chechnya like you, if you pull out and there's some sort of disagreement as to a traffic maneuver or whatever, like, people will, will ask, are you okay? And do you need any help? Like, it's not an aggressive. You're up. Get out of my way. It's, is everything okay? Like, do you need a hand? Like, like assuming you're screwed up because something's wrong. It's just like a polar opposite mentality. But back to, to that, that kind of point is that, you know, we live in a society now where, I mean, you can say anything to somebody with absolutely zero consequence. I mean, you can, you know, insult their family, their mom, their kids, their spouse, them. I mean, you, you can threaten them, frankly. I mean, I've, I'm sure you've seen stuff too where people will say just like, dude, how the is that, how is that what you think? You know, like some of the comments on YouTube or, or on social media, which I admittedly don't read very much of or very often, but sometimes some have gotten my attention because of how egregious they are, but I think that that's part of it is that, you know, it's like there, there's no consequence for talking to somebody in, in any manner, like the most vile, disgusting, offensive, threatening, disrespectful manner. There's absolutely no consequence for it. You know, and I think that's a problem when you couple that with the fact that the weird timing of texting and social media and comments is that, you know, having a discussion or even a disagreement with somebody, you don't have time to think about it that much, right? So everything is really off the cuff. Like when you have just enough time, like you may spend minutes or even, even hours figuring out how to respond to somebody's smart ass comment. And so you have, you know, all of, all of these, like one up, I gotcha, catch me me trick kind of comments on social media where people are, you know, have these well thought out things, there's no emotion behind it. You can't see the, the person's face, you can't humanize them at all because it's just, you know, Text on a, on a little screen in your hand and I think that that changes the way people view each other.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. The idea like I'll see on social media of someone will say, you know, well that's you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you know the last time I said, I said you to another person, I can't, I can't remember.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like that, that's. And the last time someone said that to me, I can't remember.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like for someone to look at me and say fuck you. Like that is, that is you don't do it. Extreme kind of crazy thing that's going on. Like we're about to fight.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Or I did something to you that like you we are now enemies. But for just to be as like a Tuesday afternoon and I'm going through this person who's talking about Biden or Trump or whoever and my response is if that's what you think you. That's.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

Is that serious?

[Jocko Willink]

That's, that's where we're at. That's what we're doing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So yes. Social media for. I wonder how that bleeds over to like real life.

[Mike Ritland]

Well, it doesn't so.

[Jocko Willink]

But, but no, let's say you're a kid, let's say you're a 15 year old kid and you're on social media and you're telling people you and this, that and the other thing. And now all of a sudden you're in a movie theater and someone's talking and you tell them to be quiet and they say, you know, I'm not. You don't, you don't tell me what to do. Do you immediately just go like you and now we're fighting.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like I don't know.

[Mike Ritland]

I, I think there's an element of that. I do think that deep down, even if it's hardwired genetic is that I think people still understand the, the primal nature of, of human beings and, and kind of what exists. And so I think it depends on the person in person. I think there's a lot of people that would talk a ton of online and if you saw them in person they wouldn't talk to you that way. But I think you know, it depends on who that other person is. With kids. Yeah. I think a lot of them would go right to you know, saying what, what they would type in social media. I do think as you get older and you get a sense of, of how somebody carries themselves, their presence, their non verbal communication, eye contact, things like that, that, that plays a big role. Again, I think I don't even think you ever have need to have been punched in the mouth or been in a fight to realize when you're in the presence of somebody who absolutely will you up, you know, for being disrespectful. I think people recognize that even if they've never been in a fight.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, there's a little bit of primal activity going on there. One thing you say about this is this one mentality shift is something that you can begin pursuing right now. Start asking, asking questions. Start thinking for yourself, educating yourself, researching for yourself. Expose yourself to a variety of deep thinkers, innovators, philosophers, political leaders, experts and friends who think both similarly and different than you. Certainly something that if you don't actively try and make that happen, it won't happen. Yeah, if you just look, it's so much more comforting just to hang out with a bunch of people that think what I think, think. And I don't want to hear from anybody else. And by the way, your algorithm is set up to do that for you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you go into the fact of voting, here's another thing that you talk about which I. Well, I guess you could say I fully, whole, wholeheartedly support this. Take responsibility. No matter who you are or what stage of life where you are currently in, it's important to remember that someone is looking at you. You are an example to someone, and you are an influence on someone. That alone should be a weighty responsibility. It is one none of us should take lightly. Take responsibility and ownership for what is yours. Don't blame your problems on other people. Put your head down and own the shit that's yours to own. If you made a mistake, don't pretend you didn't. Don't try and cover it up. Look it square in the face, Own it and take action to grow from it. In doing so, you'll show others that it's okay to fall down and get back up. I wrote a whole book about that. Actually, it's only one chapter in that book, but yeah, take ownership, everybody. And then you get into this trifecta of health. Three components. Get the fuck outside. Get off your ass, get proper fuel. Step one, get the fuck outside. Why is that?

[Mike Ritland]

So taking one step back, you know, the book highlights, like I was kind of saying, the. The premise behind it is, you know, there's all these data points that speak to big, much bigger problems than what typically is focused on in the media. It can be a daunting thing to see all of these issues, these data points, and be like, holy, you know, our country is in, in kind of a mess. And now it's. The daunting part is, what can I do about that?

[Jocko Willink]

Right?

[Mike Ritland]

It's like, well, you can vote and you can set the example. You know, I don't know what the adage is. All. All high tides raised ships or whatever the hell that is. I, I know I messed that up. Whatever it is, you get the point, right? Do you know what it is, Echo?

[Jocko Willink]

High tides raise all ships.

[Mike Ritland]

That sounds about right.

[Jocko Willink]

But hey, you know what? Yeah, all high tides do also raise ships. We're good either way.

[Mike Ritland]

It's the highest it's ever been. But you know, that, that's the reality is that. So if everybody, you know, attacks that same problem of saying, okay, well, the, there's not a lot that I can control, but the things that I can control are me. So those first four kind of protocols of how you approach everything, coupled with the fact that, okay, well, I can keep myself healthy because the reality is our, our country's biggest problem is drug addiction, alcoholism, and heart disease, Right? By far, those three things kill way more people than guns than, I mean, everything else by a landslide. By getting outside, get it, you know, getting sunlight. The Huberman protocols of getting off your ass, staying active, and having that implemented as part of your routine is going to be super beneficial. The second thing is fueling your body appropriately. Same thing is that stop rinse and Snickers bars, down with Mountain Dew, and eat, you know, nutrient dense whole foods that are relatively healthy most of the time, and then, you know, exercise and make your body strong and, and, you know, do those right things. So those three things, you know, staying active, eating properly and exercising, you know, take the biggest strain off of our system, society. Because if you're doing that, you're not an alcoholic, you're not addicted to drugs, and you're not clogging up our, our health care system. But even, even beyond that is that, you know, mentally you're going to be the most capable, you're going to be the most productive physically and mentally, which is just going to, you know, be a, an asset to the, to the country. And, and if everybody does that, if everybody maximizes their own potential, the collective average of the country is way above where we're at now, you know, and those are things that you can control.

[Jocko Willink]

You talk about getting off your ass, and we were talking earlier about the fact that you were on this podcast before six and a half years ago, and after that podcast, at some juncture, you got off your ass and you started Training Jiu Jitsu.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

What was that all about? Let's talk Jiu Jitsu.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, Charles, step up to the mic.

[Mike Ritland]

I mean, I already stayed pretty active working out, but, you know, Jiu Jitsu is one of those things where I think, I don't think I know that, you know, the cost benefit of juice being worth a squeeze. Like, if you're going to be active and you're going to put effort into a physical activity, I think you'd be hard pressed to find one that gives you the return that Jiu Jitsu does, you know, for so many reasons, which I know you guys have talked about at length. Another part was, which I mentioned on the last show, but I'll, I'll mention again for your listeners, is the. Andy Stump had the ask me anything and somebody was like, who's going to win in a fight between Ritland and Rogan? And he was like, Rogan had Mike up. And I was just like, well, you. Like, I don't care if it's even true. Like, it's like, I should probably do something about that. You know, not that I didn't feel like I could at least somewhat handle myself, but not to the degree with which somebody who trains a lot and gets, you know, to be a pretty seasoned Jiu Jitsu athlete or even combatives, because I do. I don't compete, I don't focus on points or positions. It's, it's all very kind of MMA or, or real world focused, you know, with starting from feet and, you know, doing takedowns and even throwing little strikes in here and there and being mindful of the fact that that's a thing. And generally speaking, no holds barred. I mean, we're not gouging eyes and, but we're doing a lot of things that aren't legal in competition and, and, and just kind of focusing on that as a mentality. But for me, I found a huge, I would say, kind of release and balancing mentally with just, you know, whether it was ego or temper or frustration, you know, things that I, I didn't really expect as a, as a consequence, as a positive consequence of doing it, but that have been just overwhelmingly beneficial for me with, you know, being more patient and letting things go and like, not letting certain little, little things bother me and what have you. And it's been, it's been an amazing journey. I, I wouldn't say that, like, it runs my life and I'm addicted to it, but I, I absolutely love doing it and, and I have to do it So I don't know, maybe I am addicted to it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that we, we do call that an addiction. How many times a week do you get to train?

[Mike Ritland]

It varies. I mean, I would say on the like the most I'll do in a week is four days. That's pretty rare. It's usually two or three for me. I do find that sweet spot of two or three. If three, if it's, you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday or you know, at least one day in between between. Training for me is pretty important for me to be able to recover and not feel like I've been hit by a bus when I get out of bed every morning. But yeah, I just, you know, I train with a young, young, very skilled black belt, mostly private lessons and, and even the, you know, occasional group class that I'll do is, you know, there's usually some, some pretty competitive guys that are, you know, half my age and pretty athletic and, and make me feel awesome old, you know, but, but I, Yeah, I mean I love it. And to me the kind of the 3D chess component that just never gets old, you know, I mean to me it's to use kind of a band references, like striking is kind of like drums, you know, whether it's Muay Thai, kickboxing or whatever. Like there's only so much variance combination wise that you can really bring to the table.

[Jocko Willink]

That's a freaking good one.

[Mike Ritland]

Jiu Jitsu is the guitar. It's the electric guitar with wah pedals and effects and you can bend the strings and, and you know, fretboard.

[Jocko Willink]

And by the way, look, dude, drummers and drumming can be in totally insane, complicated craziness. It's awesome. But, but it doesn't. It. The amount of complexity and, and infinite number of opportunities on a guitar fretboard are ten fold is like tenfold.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so yeah, that's a really good. I always just say it's like linear versus non linear, you know, and, and there you are limited in boxing. How. What can you do? Yeah, only so many things you can. And look, a boxer will be like, well no, there's this. And they're right. They're right. And every one of those things that you can, you can. Every one of those variables in boxing there's. Let's say there's 10,000 variables in boxing. You can multiply that times infinite infinity.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

To get to Jiu Jitsu.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, I mean there's just that there's the. You're never finished component to it. Like there's always some other level or whatever. And I feel like with boxing or, you know, really any type of striking, you get to a certain point and I don't think it takes that long before you're kind of as good as you're gonna get. You know, you're not gonna. Because so much of it is hinging on speed and athleticism and, and quickness and, and reflex and, and a lot of those things you can't change, you know, so it seems like, I mean, I haven't done a ton of striking, but I've done enough to where it's like, you know, within a certain point and relatively soon you're about as good as you're going to get at that. Whereas Jiu jitsu, it's just like, it just keeps going.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, just FYI, there, there is crazy levels to striking too. Like, if you ever train with people that are what would be considered like a Jiu Jitsu black belt and striking.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you're not, you are getting worked over the same way. Agree as like, like we, we. Mike Regner, remember Mike Regner at City Boxing? He's, you know, he was like a champion kickboxer Muay Thai guy. Like you think about kicking him and he's checking your kick and like returning and it hurts way worse than what you threw at him and he doesn't care. Or Robbie Garcia, who is like the hitman. Like he hits you with a body shot, like you're sparring, you're throwing, throwing, but boom. Yeah, dude. So. And they, they can just work you over. That being said, there's an even more exponential level change in like someone that is a, you know, a black belt in Jiu Jitsu.

[Mike Ritland]

Well, I, I guess to, to clarify, like, I'm not insinuating that there aren't the same amount of levels of, of skill in striking. What I think is, is that individually your, your ability to progress is far more limited. You know, like if, especially if you didn't grow up doing it, you know, it's like if you take a, say a 25 year old in good shape, you know, decent athleticist, and you start putting them through the paces, boxing, Muay Thai, what have you, you know, within a, probably a couple of years, he's probably as about as good as he's going to get. You know, even if he trains for the next 15, he may get a little better. I don't, I don't think there's the same learning curve in striking that there is in Jiu Jitsu.

[Jocko Willink]

Jiu jitsu learning curve is definitely an apex learning, learning curve for sure.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's the way it works. And it doesn't stop. That's what, you know, people ask me like, oh, who would be, who would win the 53 year old Jocko or the 25 year old Jocko? That's no contest. The 30 year old Jocko is no contest. Actually myself like six months ago. No contest. You know, so you get better all the time.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you learn all the time and you can just the difference. And there's a huge difference between like black belt that, that black belt, you know, guy over there and that other black belt guy over there. And it's like, oh, this is next level activities that are going on. So it is definitely, definitely a. Do your kids do it?

[Mike Ritland]

They have. So my, my youngest trains, I'd say more MMA style now.

[Jocko Willink]

Sweet.

[Mike Ritland]

You know, she does a fair bit of striking as well. I, you know, so both of them did it when they were real young for, for several years and then for a period. Neither of them did it for a little while. My oldest wrestled in high school, which was great.

[Jocko Willink]

That all, all years. Four years of wrestling.

[Mike Ritland]

Three.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Mike Ritland]

But you know, it's neat to see, you know, a, a, a women's wrestling team, you know, at Texas school. It was also great in that they didn't have a ton of, of you know, kids on the team. So they end up having to wrestle the boys a lot.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

Which is good for him, you know. And so.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

So now did the Jiu jitsu cross.

[Jocko Willink]

Over pretty well to her wrestling? Did she have enough Jiu jitsu to make it an impact?

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, I think it was like with a lot of kids it was a little problematic at first, you know, just the being comfortable on your back versus no, you never go on your back, you know, but that doesn't last very long, you know. So now I would say even the, you know, when we'll still kind of mess around a little bit, she's still pretty heavy in the wrestling. You know, the collar ties and the arm drags and the, you know, you know, flinching and you know, just the, the standard wrestler stuff that you get into right away, which is still fun. And she's, you know, her frame is, is pretty good size. She's really athletic and, and stays in good shape and, and uh, you know, she's a handful. I mean, for sure. I'm.

[Jocko Willink]

Do you think she's going to venture back to Jiu Jitsu?

[Mike Ritland]

I hope so.

[Jocko Willink]

My daughter. Yeah, you know, same thing. Jiu jitsu wrestling and boy, she went back into jiu jitsu and she's, she's real in the dancer right now.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, I, I hope she does. I, I think she will. I mean, she has the personality that would lend itself to, to probably do that. So she's out of state right now. I think if, if she comes back in the next year, which I think she very well may, then, then I'd say you could probably count on it, you know, but. But I hope she does too.

[Jocko Willink]

On Dude. Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Just to, just to kind of close out the book here a little bit. You say our country's facing a lot of challenges right now and we need individuals like you to have the courage to think independently, to live with sincerity and integrity, to. And roll up their sleeves and contribute to the world around us. We each have a part to play and a path to take that is and should be different from one another. There are times when you may feel like you're swimming upstream. You may feel insignificant or inconsequential in the grand scheme of life. But don't give up. Because your life, that individual thread that you've been given to weave alongside countless others is what will create the tapestry of the next chapter in history. What will be on that tapestry and what we will be remembered for is up to us.

[Mike Ritland]

Marcus Aurelius.

[Jocko Willink]

There you go. There you go. Good stuff, dude. And you wrote that book a couple years ago. So what else you got going on?

[Mike Ritland]

It's a big thing now is just kind of continuing to do all the same stuff that I've been doing. The primary focus is the dog food company. Just because that's such a heavy lift, as you well know, just with, you know, product development and bringing new SKUs and, and even just continuing doing, you know, with consumables. It never ends, you know, which is good, you know, and I think, you know, product based business is. I think you have to have something where people are going through it and reordering regularly. But yeah, the expansion of that, I mean, it's kind of ironic. I mean, over the last 15 years, when I first, first started doing dogs for a living, you know, it was like, because I love dogs and I want to train dogs. And while I still do that, you know, coming full circle, it's like the bulk of my day now is talking about shipping issues and truck delays and packaging costs and, you know, and it's like that has nothing to do with dogs. It's all the same stuff. You probably are, are, you know, faced with all the works. Yeah, you Know, but, but I love it. I mean, mean, you know, I wouldn't have it any other way. I, I really enjoy doing it and, and it's fun. I mean, you know, the, the reason why I started the dog food company is in that same vein, is that I just wanted to have a superior product and help dogs and, and help people get the most out of their dogs, both from a training standpoint and from nutrition standpoint. So I'm still doing the online training. I still sell personal protection dogs. I'll still teach it.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, do you sell. Do people order the dogs in advance or.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

How's that work?

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, I only do that one at a time. So, you know, there, there are some companies out there that'll have, you know, three, four or five dogs for sale on their website. I don't do it that way. If somebody says, hey, I'm interested in a dog, we have a conversation and then, you know, kind of get the, the understanding of the family dynamic, the, the daily routine and determine, hey, is this a good fit or not? Because there are times where it's not where I'll say, hey, I really don't. Your lifestyle, from my perspective, it's just too dynamic. Yeah, it's too dynamic. You know, dogs thrive on, on, on routine and, and their currency is, is engagement. And if you can't do both of those things at a certain level, it's. You just, you know, should get a goldfish, so. Or an attack cheetah or whatever, you know, but hire a bodyguard. But. So at that point, then I'll go find the, the right dog for that fit and then bring them, bring them into my house and spend however long it takes to, to get them ready to, to be delivered. Then I'll spend a couple days delivering the dog and then, then that's it. It is a, it's a strange business because unlike really anything, it's such an intimate transaction, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Mike Ritland]

Even if you're, you know, say, remodeling somebody's bathroom, like you're in their house and whatever, but not with them here. You know, you're adding a family member. This, this customer is trusting you to put a potentially dangerous animal in their house with their, you know, so you're spending time with their kids like you're seeing. And some of these people are household names. You know, they're, or they're C suite executives of, you know, household name corporations or things of that nature. And so, you know, you meet some really, really interesting people and, and get a lot of good Advice, business wise, which I was an unintended positive consequence that I didn't anticipate. But, but that transaction is such, where, you know, you're seeing these, these people that, you know, as they're putting their kids to bed first thing in the morning, like you're staying in their house while they're doing their normal stuff, you see how they interact with their spouses. It's kind of weird. I wouldn't say.

[Jocko Willink]

How many days do you spend?

[Mike Ritland]

Usually three or four. So it's. But then, you know, that's. Once I'm comfortable and they're comfortable with me leaving at that, there comes a certain point where it's counterproductive for me to still be there because the dog's always going to default to me. Once, you know, everything's kind of good enough for me to leave, then it's still, you know, you're touching base and checking in pretty often. You know, they'll still have a lot of questions. And over that first few weeks, we're still talking quite a bit, you know, and then as a couple months gets down the road, then they're kind of firing on all cylinders and, and they don't need a whole lot of advice at that point.

[Jocko Willink]

But so dog food, dog training, selling.

[Mike Ritland]

Dogs, the podcast, and then of course the Warrior Dog foundation, which, the Warrior.

[Jocko Willink]

Dog foundation, which you have. How many kennels do you have set up for that?

[Mike Ritland]

30. And we're always full. I mean, we've got over 10 dogs on a waiting list right now. I mean, that's one thing where we're trying to, trying to expand and, you know, it's tough to determine whether or not it makes sense to expand where we're at, which I don't think it really does, or have regional places. Like I'd like to have a Warrior Dog West Coast, Warrior Dog east coast, maybe a Warrior Dog north, have different satellite operations. Where number one is that if the dog, you know, from whatever unit or police department is closer to there, then. And it's going to go to wherever the closest location is. But two, you know, these dogs don't, don't play well with others. I mean, they're all kind of the Hannibal lectors of the dog world and that they've bit a bunch of people they weren't supposed to, and, and we're, we're to a point where wherever, whatever unit they're coming from, you know, wanted to euthanize them. And then that's where we step in. So these aren't the dogs that you know, you can just adopt out and you know, like from the movie dog or, you know, last or whatever. It's, it's not that dog. This is the dog that's made a bunch of mistakes and, and has, you know, hurt, hurt people and put them in the hospital that they weren't supposed to. And so we can't let those dogs out together. You know, you're letting them out one at a time. So 30 dogs is kind of pushing it for one location. And so we really need to expand. It's just, I don't know, you know, one of the biggest challenges I think from a nonprofit stuff standpoint is you're, you're kind of in one of, one of two camps either, you know, you're, you're really firing on all cylinders in terms of the administrative staff, the fundraising, the, you know, reaching out, the advertisements, the galas, all that kind of stuff. Or, you know, you're doing 97 cents of every dollar goes to the mission and you're not gonna get emailed back right away and you're not going to get a Christmas card every year from on card sales stock that cost $9 for, you know, for the Christmas card. And we've always been very lean and, you know, leaned more towards that, trying to maximize the amount of, of, you know, dollars going to the, taking care of the dog. So the reason I bring that up is that, you know, that expansion is, is pretty, it's pretty heavy lift financially. And while we don't have dedicated grant writers and fundraisers and gala organizations, organizers and things like that, it's tough to, to accomplish that when, you know, when we're not, not spending money on that. So still, you know, been able to, to save well over 300 dogs in the last 15 years and, and continue to do so and will so. But I would like to see kind of the next phase of both my professional career and the foundation to kind of expand and maybe add a, add a few locations. Locations to bring some more dogs in.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's good stuff. Does that, does that get us up to speed?

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's all I got, I guess.

[Jocko Willink]

But people can find all that stuff that you just talked [e-mail] right. You got Mic Drop, the Mic Drop podcast. You're on Twitter and Instagram at Mritland. You also have at Teamdog Shop at Teen Dog Pet, at Warrior Dog foundation, and you got your YouTube channel, which is at Mike Ryland.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Does that cover all the bases there?

[Mike Ritland]

That's every Single base.

[Jocko Willink]

I was going to put down all the different websites, but they're all under Mic Riddle, and you can find them from there. Echo. Charles, any questions?

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, quick question.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Remember the Halloween scenario?

[Mike Ritland]

Oh, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

You know, we couldn't go hot for. For trick or treating. Do you remember? I mean, if you're at liberty to say, do you know, do you remember what they lied about?

[Mike Ritland]

I actually. I have no recollection of what they lied about.

[Echo Charles]

I agree with you with the lying thing. Yeah, I think, though, I mean, growing up, we. We got spanked very rarely for anything. But the thing we always 100 of the time got spanked for was lying.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So it's like a weird, like, psychological thing that I have against, like, lying. It's psychic. But. But I tried to perpetuate that through the kids or whatever. And, bro, I would shut down Christmas, Halloween, New Year if they lied. Overtly lied. Oh, man, 100. I'm with you.

[Mike Ritland]

Yeah, it's. That's a tough. It's tough because I think it's. I think there are phases in childhood where it's more common than others. And, you know, whether it's friend influences or, you know, stuff at school or whatever, it's like, man, it's a tough one to handle sometimes, you know, because, A, it's infuriating, and so trying to stay calm and not get emotional is. Is tricky. But B, it's like, man, like, the one thing I need you to do is level with me, you know, and it's like, if I can't trust what you're telling me, we're gonna have big, big problems moving down the road, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

But my son lied to me one time, and it was actually. The reason I'm thinking about it is because. Not just because we're talking about lying, but also because we're talking about dogs, but because what he lied about was, you know, my wife and I had to go somewhere, and we're like, hey, walk the dog. Cool. You know, and I'm. As I'm walking out, you know, you glance over and you see, like, the. The pinch collar in a certain spot. And other than that, he's not even wearing a collar. So if you're going for a walk, you're gonna take the pinch collar. Cause he was a young dog at the time. He needed to be on leash. So I notice it, and I kind of just frame a reference real quick, like, oh, you know, you can see the pattern that it's in. In. You know, I come back, you know, we Go back. We're gone for half an hour, whatever, 45 minutes, maybe an hour. Come back. I look at that leash. It's in the exact same spot in the exact same pattern. I was like, hey, did you walk the dog? And he's like, yep. I go, hey, dude, I'm going to ask you one more time. Did you walk that dog? And he goes, yeah. And I go, okay. I said, I know you didn't.

[Mike Ritland]

You're.

[Jocko Willink]

You're done. There's levels to being done. I'm going to allow you to have a lower level if you tell me the truth right now. Did you walk that dog? He's like, no. I said, okay, get your workout gear on. And I. You know, when he went through a little. He went through a little hammer session. The funny thing is, so Leif and Seth were around, you know, this is when he was a younger guy, so these guys were around all the time, and he's, like, in the middle of some freaking punishing burpee thruster, kettlebell punishment. And I'm like, you know what? You know, I said, do you. I said, do you think Seth and Leif ever messed up? Because I was gonna, you know, do you think they messed up? Of course they did. Do you think they lied to me? No. I'm like, do you think life and Seth would ever messed up? And he's like, no, never. I was like, they messed up up all the time. Do you think they lie to me? No. So there you go. No lying. That's. That's what we're doing. Mike, any. Any final thoughts, bro?

[Mike Ritland]

No, I just. Again, I can't thank you enough for having me out and taking a full day to, you know, let me interview you and then. And then do the reverse. So thank you very much. I know your time is precious.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on, man. Well, it's awesome to have you back here. Thanks for joining us. Once again. Thanks for what you did for the. The teams, for. For our great nation, and thank for what you continue to do now, you know, helping dogs, helping people, and helping them both become a little bit smarter and a little bit better, better canines and better humans.

[Mike Ritland]

My pleasure. Thank you.

[Jocko Willink]

Thanks, brother. And with that, Mike Ritland has left the building, obviously putting forth some pretty good steps to improve America, to improve your community, to improve your family, to improve yourself.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

And bunch of steps. One of the ones I noticed was get outside. Get outside. Clean fuel. Get after it. Train jiu jitsu.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So we're looking for good fuel. I recommend Jocko fuel. Hey, you know, he was like, yeah, eat Good Foods 100%. We're eating steak, we're eating salads, Right? We're eating chicken. We're doing this. You're even eating sushi, right? We're doing it. But can't always get everything that we need through these protocols. Check out jockeyfuel.com get the other things that you need. Supplement your fuel system. You can get extra protein, mole protein, ready to drink, powder form. You can get energy. You can get super krill. You can. You can get time war. Get just the supplements that you need. So check out jockofuel.com and get what you need. You can get it at Walmart, you can get it at Wawa Vitamin Shop, GNC, Military Commissaries, AES, Hannaford Dash Stores, MD, Wake Fern, Shoprite, HEB down in Texas, Meer in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness Shields. And whatever gym you're at, they can have it there, too. If they don't have it there, email jfsalesquafuel.com and get it there. That's what we're doing.

[Echo Charles]

Is there a, like, a limitation to how big your gym has to be or anything like that?

[Jocko Willink]

Just however, you could have four people that train at your gym, and those four people could be fueled properly.

[Echo Charles]

So even, like, you know, the little Pilates place just for whoever.

[Jocko Willink]

By the way. By the way, we're in chiropractic places. Yeah, yeah, we're in all kinds of, like, little niche places anywhere where people are focused on being healthy and fit and high performance. We're in those places. So we're in. Yeah, we're in all kinds of different places. Hardware stores.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, it's rolling in.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's what we're doing, man. Jockey Fuel dot com. Check it out.

[Echo Charles]

Also, you said Jiu Jitsu. Yeah, I did, yeah. So if you're doing the GI Jiu Jitsu, which is, you know, hey, man, recommend it. So, yeah, if you're doing the GI Jiu Jitsu, be sure to get a gi, an origin gi all made in America. And here's the thing. Yeah, made in America. Yes. But in addition, you got the added fact that's the best GI in the world as far as quality goes as well. Trust me, I saw the process. And I wear the geese, So I know 100. What's up?

[Jocko Willink]

Also jeans, also T shirts, hoodies, hunt gear, everything that you need. We. We got it going on. You needed to work out. And by the way, you might as well get it made in America. The United States of America. Not by some poor slave child slave in some other country that's in an abusive environment that's working against their will. Don't, don't put into that system. Don't put money into that system. Put money into America. OriginUSA.com check it out.

[Echo Charles]

It's true. Also Jocko store called Jocko store jocastore.com so you can get your discipline equals freedom. Shirts. There's hats on there, there's hoodies on there. Shirts that say good, I want to propagate good a little bit more. Maybe a different item. Anyway cleared hot man, cleared out. We got socks on there. Anyway, some cool stuff on there if you want to represent while you're on the path. Also what we have on there is this little subscription scenario called the Shirt Locker. It's a new design, shirt design every month a little bit more creative design, fonder designs. People represent. That's when you can get your attention. Little bit. I don't mean bad attention. I mean like, you know, the kind where you wear your shirt and be like, oh, where'd you get that shirt? You know? Anyway, it's that kind of designs. It's called the Shirt Locker. It's all on jocko store.com available. Available big time.

[Jocko Willink]

You're going to need steak or did mention steak. We want to be eating steak. You might as well eat the good steak. Check out coloradocraft beef.com and primalbeef.com awesome steak. One from one from Colorado, the other from the Shenandoah Valley. Either one is going to be epic. Awesome steaks, awesome people, awesome companies. Check out primalbeef.com Colorado craft beef.com also subscribe to this podcast. Also check out Jocko Underground. Also we got YouTube channels. We got Psychological Warfare. We got Flipside canvas books by Mike Ritland. Unfuck America Trident Canine dogs.

[Echo Charles]

You so you're so funny when. Cuz I was thinking the same thing. When you're like, you're talking about the big publishers and what the edits they would have made, you're like maybe the title.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, but that's you. It was a thing for a while like that. It was a big shocking thing. And then the book came out that.

[Echo Charles]

Was called oh yeah, Unfuck Yourself.

[Jocko Willink]

Unfuck Yourself. But there might have even been another one. But there was one big hit. Unfuck Yourself was one of them. And then that broke the mold and. And now there's a bunch of books like that have a swear word. One of them being Unfuck America. Trident Canine Dogs Navy SEAL Dogs and Team Dog by Mike Ritland. I've written a bunch of books about various things from leadership to washing machines to kids books. So check out those books. Check out Mikey and the Dragons. Check out About Face by Colonel David Hackworth. We have a leadership consulting company. It's called Echelon Front. We solve problems through leadership. So if you have problems inside your organization, they are leadership problems. And if you want to resolve those problems, go to echelonfront.com and check out what we have going on. There's also events that you can come to. One event is called the Dallas's Next One is in San Diego February 23rd through the 25th. If you want to go to one of our events, please register early because they all sell out. On top of that, we have an online training academy where you can learn the leadership principles that we teach online training courses. There's quizzes, there's live sessions. Go to extremeownership.com if you want to learn these principles in your business, in your life, in your family. Extreme ownership dot com. Check that out. And if you want to help out service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, want to help Gold star families? Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org Jimmy Mays organization, which is called beyond the Brotherhood and of course Mike Ritland's Warrior Dog Foundation. Check all those out great organizations if you want to connect with us. For Mike Ritland, he's on the interwebs mikeritland.com and you can kind of find everything that he talked about and everything that he [e-mail] he also has the Mic Drop podcast. He's got Twitter and Instagram where he is at M. Ritland and he's also got a YouTube channel which is at Mike Ritland. For us, you can check out jocko.com and I am at Jocko Willink and Echo is at Echo Charles. And just be careful because as we talked about today, there's an algorithm that's going to try and lock you into a little echo chamber that's going to make your life miserable. So be careful that. Thanks again to Mike Ritland for joining us. Thanks for your service to America, your service as a frogman in the teams, and thanks for what you're doing still today to represent and thanks to all our military personnel out there around the world. Including our canine dogs that are out there getting after it. Thank you for protecting our way of life here in America. As imperfect as it is, it is still worth protecting. And in that same vein, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border Patrol, Secret service and all other first responders, thank you for protecting us here at home and everyone else out there. There's a lot of complex issues and topics that you gotta navigate in the world. And it can be a little crazy sometimes. But I would recommend that at a minimum, like Mike Ritland says, you should get yourself squared away. Think for yourself, take responsibility, get outside, get the proper fuel and get off your ass. That's what we got. Until next time. Zeko and Jocko out.