479: First Troops On The Ground In Afghanistan. With Green Beret Scott Neil

Summary

Jocko Podcast Episode 479: First Troops On The Ground In Afghanistan. With Green Beret Scott Neal

Release Date: February 26, 2025

Retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink hosts episode 479 of the Jocko Podcast alongside Echo Charles. This episode delves into the early days of the Afghanistan conflict, highlighting the role of Task Force K Bar and featuring an in-depth conversation with Scott Neal, a former Green Beret Special Forces soldier who served in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other global hotspots. Scott is now the president of Horse Soldier Bourbon, one of America's most successful veteran-owned companies.

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Introduction to Task Force K Bar and Scott Neal's Background

Jocko begins by recounting the commendable actions of Task Force K Bar, recognized with the Presidential Unit Citation for their exceptional service in Afghanistan from October 2001 to March 2002. This unit, comprising sailors, soldiers, airmen, Marines, and coalition partners, achieved a 100% mission success rate in various high-risk special operations.

Notable Quote:

"The officers and enlisted personnel of Combined Joint Special Operations Task Force K Bar reflected great credit upon themselves and upheld the highest traditions of the United States Armed Forces." — [00:06] Jocko Willink

Jocko introduces Scott Neal, emphasizing his extensive combat experience and transition to entrepreneurship with Horse Soldier Bourbon. He expresses honor in having Scott share his experiences and lessons learned.

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Early Life and Military Aspirations

Scott Neal describes his upbringing in central Florida, deeply rooted in a family history rich with military involvement. Growing up around cattle drives and rural life, Scott developed a passion for discipline and service, which culminated in his decision to join the army.

Notable Quote:

"I always loved cowboys and Indians and cops and robbers and army men and everything like that. So I kind of set my pace to what I always wanted to do, and that's just join the army." — [05:07] Scott Neal

Despite performing modestly in school and sports, Scott's determination led him to enlist in the infantry, aiming to become an Airborne Ranger—a dream inspired by military-themed movies.

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Military Training and Selection for Special Forces

Scott details his initial infantry training at Fort Benning and subsequent deployment to Panama, narrowly missing active combat in the Gulf War. The pivotal moment came when he observed Special Forces soldiers during his time in Panama, inspiring him to pursue a path in Special Forces despite minimal preparation.

Notable Quote:

"There's no Google, there's no book on how to win, how to get through Special Forces. It's all on you to get ready for it." — [11:18] Scott Neal

The selection process was rigorous, with Scott showcasing resilience and mental fortitude to advance through the demanding trials that ultimately led to his placement in the 5th Special Forces Group at Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

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Deployment to Afghanistan and Early Operations

Scott recounts the inception of Task Force K Bar during the onset of the Afghanistan war post-9/11. Task Force K Bar was instrumental in establishing a direct action capability in the Middle East, focusing on precision operations against Al Qaeda and Taliban targets.

Notable Quote:

"So that's what got us into the game." — [43:55] Scott Neal

He describes the challenges of initial missions, including unexpected encounters such as breaching a compound to find civilians, which underscored the unpredictability of real combat scenarios.

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Operational Challenges and Lessons Learned

The first missions in Afghanistan were fraught with unforeseen complexities. Scott narrates a mission where his team anticipated engaging combatants but instead encountered non-combatants, including a frightened little girl. This experience highlighted the necessity for adaptability and the harsh realities of warfare.

Notable Quote:

"This is everything you had hoped for. And you run into the compound and you begin, you know, your process of just making your breach." — [59:30] Scott Neal

He emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and evolving training programs to better prepare soldiers for the nuanced demands of modern combat.

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Transition to Civilian Life and Entrepreneurship

After a distinguished military career, Scott transitioned to civilian life, co-founding Horse Soldier Bourbon with fellow veterans. He discusses the challenges of starting a business from scratch, including learning the intricacies of distillation, distribution, and brand building.

Notable Quote:

"We didn't know how to make it and we made it for fun. So we literally went, poured some in a bottle, printed off on a laser printer a label, and called it Horse Soldier and took it to the red carpet premiere. That's how the business started." — [81:58] Scott Neal

Scott shares how strategic partnerships, particularly with the Gallo family, propelled Horse Soldier Bourbon into the mainstream market, enabling significant growth and establishing it as a reputable brand.

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Adventures and Legacy Building

Beyond business, Scott and his partners engage in adventurous activities that reinforce camaraderie and leadership principles. From participating in military reenactments in Normandy to scuba diving recovery missions in Saipan, these adventures embody the spirit of continuous challenge and legacy preservation.

Notable Quote:

"Once we get done with that, you know, it's like being in a different world. [...] It's like, as soon as I get back from Yellowstone... we're a little bit outside of human conversations." — [117:38] Scott Neal

These endeavors aim to pass down experiences and lessons to younger generations, ensuring that the valor and sacrifices of veterans are remembered and honored.

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Closing Remarks and Promotion of Initiatives

Jocko and Scott conclude the episode by promoting their respective ventures, including Horse Soldier Bourbon and various entrepreneurial and veteran-support initiatives. They underscore the importance of discipline, leadership, and legacy, both in military service and civilian entrepreneurship.

Notable Quote:

"You can't always be drinking bourbon. It's true. We're going to need other fuel is the system." — [152:54] Jocko Willink

They encourage listeners to support veteran-owned businesses and engage with the community to foster continual growth and resilience.

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Final Thoughts

Episode 479 of the Jocko Podcast offers a compelling narrative of Scott Neal's journey from a dedicated Special Forces operator to a successful entrepreneur. Through candid discussions and personal anecdotes, Scott imparts invaluable lessons on leadership, adaptability, and the relentless pursuit of excellence. This episode serves as both an inspiring military memoir and a testament to the enduring spirit of veterans transitioning to impactful civilian roles.

For more insights and to connect with Scott Neal, visit HorseSoldierBourbon.com and follow him on Instagram at @HorseSoldierBourbon. Additionally, explore Jocko's various ventures at Jocko.com and Echelon Front.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko podcast number 479 with Echo, Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

For extraordinary heroism and an outstanding performance of duty in action against the enemy in Afghanistan from October 2001 to March 2002. During its six month existence, Task Force K Bar was the driving force behind myriad combat missions conducted in Combined Joint Operations Area Afghanistan. These precedent setting and extremely high risk missions included included search and rescue, non compliant boardings of high interest vessels, special reconnaissance, sensitive site exploitation, direct action missions, apprehension of military and political detainees, destruction of multiple cave and tunnel complexes, identification and and destruction of several known Al Qaeda training camps, explosions of thousands of pounds of enemy ordinance and successful coordination of unconventional warfare operations for Afghanistan. The sailors, soldiers, airmen, Marines and coalition partners of Combined Joint Special Operations Task Force South Task Force K Bar set an unprecedented 100% mission success rate across a broad spectrum of special operations missions. While operating under extremely difficult and constantly dangerous conditions. They established benchmark standards of professionalism, tenacity, courage, tactical brilliance and professional excellence while demonstrating superb esprit de corps and maintaining the highest measure of combat readiness by their outstanding courage, resourcefulness and aggressive fighting spirit in combat against a well equipped, well trained and treacherous terrorist enemy. The officers and enlisted personnel of Combined Joint Special Operations Task Force K Bar reflected great credit upon themselves and upheld the highest traditions of the United States Armed Forces. And that right there is an excerpt from the Presidential Unit Citation for Task Force K Bar which which represented some of the first troops on the ground in Afghanistan after the attacks of September 11, 2001. And it was an impressive start to the war, but as we found out, only the beginning of the war and some of the men that were there, especially some of those frontline troops, some of the more junior men, went on and continued to fight around the globe for the next two decades. And it's an honor to have one of those men here tonight, Scott Neal. Scott is a former Green Beret Special Forces soldier who fought both in Afghanistan and Iraq and other parts of the globe. And he's now president of one of the most successful veteran companies in America, Horse Soldier Bourbon. And it's an honor to have him with us here tonight to share some of his experiences and lessons learned along the way. Scott, thanks for joining us, man.

[Scott Neal]

Thank you very much. It's an honor and privilege and I'm just looking at a K bar right.

[Jocko Willink]

In front of me giggling Task Force K Bar, which was opposed to what was the northern area. They were dagger.

[Scott Neal]

That's right. So three kind of Main thrust elements. So Dagger obviously was the unconventional side, Sword was the special unit side. And K bar was this idea of joint at the time. So multinational multi forces.

[Jocko Willink]

We'll get into that. That's. It's really interesting to think about, you know, from my perspective, having spent 20 years in the military, having worked a lot with the big Navy, with the Marine Corps, with the army, and knowing the. How challenging that can be. So for you guys to get thrown together like that, I bet that was good times.

[Scott Neal]

It was as ad hoc but necessary at the time, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Scott Neal]

And it's kind of grown into what we take advantage of now, but I don't know if it's going to be enduring because big army, big Navy, likes to break things apart and make it what it used to be.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, we'll get there eventually. And. And I. I don't know, I haven't figured out if you and I were ever in the same time. And perhaps there's chance, there's a chance that we did missions together in Iraq and I'm sure we'll figure that out if we did. But let's get a little background on you. What was growing up like?

[Scott Neal]

Rough and rowdy kid. I grew up in central Florida. My family had been in Florida on cattle and citrus groves since the 1830s. I think my family history, we've got roles in the Seminole Indian wars, the Confederate cavalry, they were known for at the time. So it was just very rural and very poor, but very happy. So my grandfather, he was well known for long cattle drives and he played the fiddle. So everybody from Nashville would come down and he would make fiddles for him. And I grew up around the bluegrass out on the range.

[Jocko Willink]

Your grandfather was alive while you were. While you were alive?

[Scott Neal]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh. So you were watching him play the.

[Scott Neal]

Fiddle all the time and. And I remember, you know, a red barn with lots of cousins every Saturday, big potluck. You know, things you admire. As a kid, you don't realize that you don't have a lot because you had a lot with family. But I always loved cowboys and Indians and cops and robbers and army men and everything like that. So I kind of set my pace to what I always wanted to do, and that's just join the army and that was.

[Jocko Willink]

Was there any thing in school that led you in that direction? Did you play sports or anything like that?

[Scott Neal]

All of them mediocrely. Right. So my brother was the champion. Right. Always the all star, always the team captain, everything.

[Jocko Willink]

Was he older or younger?

[Scott Neal]

He was older, six years. I Loved football. I broke my collarbone actually racing motocross, which kind of ended playing football. I wrestled, but I was at the weight class of, I think 155 at the time. And every other kid was, so, you know, I played in between. I was on the high school drag racing team. I love speed.

[Jocko Willink]

Awesome.

[Scott Neal]

Who knew? But yeah, it was fun.

[Jocko Willink]

And did you guys build your own cars? Like, what was this all about?

[Scott Neal]

I had a.

[Jocko Willink]

How'd I miss out on the high school drag racing?

[Scott Neal]

Well, you had the shops, right? You had the wood shop, you had the car shop, so.

[Jocko Willink]

And then they don't have that stuff anymore, by the way, which is a damn shame.

[Scott Neal]

I know. And it was just, you know, what's that stupid musical Grease, you know what I mean? Where the guys got together and they went in there and they built White Lightning. It was like that. So I had the car, that was a 327 and a Chevy Vega. So a crappy nothing little thing. And he'd go down to the track, tune it up and he'd race other high schools on the weekend.

[Jocko Willink]

Dang, good times. Yeah, but you knew you always wanted to join the army.

[Scott Neal]

That's it. I had no other aspirations back then. They had the GI Bill join and go to college. But for, for me it's like, eh, you know, I wanted to be an Airborne Ranger. Airborne Ranger is what I want to be. You go to the recruiter? I did delayed entry. I waited till I graduated and four days later left. Never looked back.

[Jocko Willink]

And did you have some kind of contract or what? Did this recruiter hook you up?

[Scott Neal]

Infantry.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. But you wanted to be an Airborne Ranger?

[Scott Neal]

I wanted to be an Airborne Ranger because that's all you would hear in movies or whatnot. So I went to one stop unit training where they trained the entire battalion. So at the time you went to Fort Benning in the infantry and. And the entire basic training battalion all training together, then went to its first duty assignment and that was Four Door California.

[Jocko Willink]

So wait, so like when you say the whole battalion trained together, what about the senior NCOs?

[Scott Neal]

No, no, all the privates.

[Jocko Willink]

So all the new guys, all the privates.

[Scott Neal]

When we got there, they had a whole cadre ready to receive us. So I don't think they do that today. But back then it was kind of this idea that we would form that way everybody would grow senior to the point where after about the third or fourth year, those who get out, get out. Those who become sergeants go on. And it was good because, you know, you have lifelong friendships with somebody you started basic training with. And then you go to Fort Ord, which was light infantry, which meant you walked everywhere. 100 mile road marches. It's like, wow.

[Jocko Willink]

And then what was your job as a rifleman?

[Scott Neal]

Just regular rifleman, assistant gunner. Right. Mule. Whatever it took. Get some, you know, 70 pounds of lightweight, you know, backpacks, and you sleep out of it in the elements. And our first kind of conflict was Panama.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you get to jump in or did you get to go into Panama?

[Scott Neal]

I was in Panama back in June. So if you look about the conflict, it started rustling. You know, this idea that, you know, we had issues. Now that I'm senior and can read history, it's a lot different. But we deployed to Fort Sherman, then Fort Sherman to Fort Espionage, which is across from the locks. And it was a Panamanian base. And we dug in at the Officers Club because Americans were staying there and for four months stayed in that foxhole. And then we rotated out November.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, you just missed it.

[Scott Neal]

Yep. And like, man.

[Jocko Willink]

So now did you feel at the time. Because I joined in 1990. Right. And so in 1990, it was like, you know, we. We would hope that there would be one mission. You know, I guess when I first joined, we were hoping that the Gulf War, I thought, you know, we were hearing news reports that there's gonna be 40,000 casualties in the first 48 hours. I thought, 100%. I'm gonna go to war. It's gonna be all set. I'm gonna get good. Going to be World War II type scenario. Let's go. So when that was over, in whatever it was, 96 hours, a dust up. Yeah, I was pretty heartbroken, to say the least.

[Scott Neal]

I was in training when it happened. So imagine I just missed Panama, right. I get to another infantry unit and I say, okay, I want to go sf. Start going through the training, and then the war begins.

[Jocko Willink]

How did you. When did you hear about sf?

[Scott Neal]

I heard about it because we're sitting in a foxhole. And 7th Special Forces Group was living at Espionage. And then you'd see these guys run by in shorts. Udts at the time with, you know, big mustaches. And you're like, sergeant, they're not Panamanian. Who are they? Don't look at them, don't touch them, don't say anything. And after four months of just watching these guys run by, I'm like, I want to be on that side. I don't want to sit here in a foxhole. And so the recruiter came around. You see this you know, video of you out of helicopters in the water and, you know, world peace and, you know, lightning fast and all these things. The young man, I said, that's it. And you go through the first physical fitness test, you pass it. Then you finally get orders to brag for selection. So at the time, there's no Google, there's no book on how to win, how to get through Special Forces.

[Jocko Willink]

What year is this? What year did you show up there?

[Scott Neal]

90, 91 ish. To begin training. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you, did you do anything to prepare for it? Somebody must have.

[Scott Neal]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

They give you a rock or something.

[Scott Neal]

Like that piece of paper in front of you is all you got was a printout at the time. Right. It says here, we recommend that you, you know, run a lot. We recommend that you walk a lot. And Special Forces selection, I learned then and meet myself going through it and then post is there. There's no encouragement, there's no nothing. It's all on you to get ready for it. It's all on you to present yourself as you're going through these tasks. So at the time, I couldn't call anybody, I didn't know anybody. They said, don't talk about it, that you're going. So I'm like, okay, I show up and if the sergeant said, start running, I started running like Forrest Gump. And at the end, he said, stop running. I stopped running. Right. Climb the obstacle course, you know. Yes, Sergeant. And you. That was selection the whole way through. I don't know how much you want me to talk about it, but it's. It starts off all individual, right? How you run now, you know, five miles. You don't know what the time standard is. You just run it. You do a 12 mile road march, you do an obstacle course, you do a land nav. You do all these individual things and you're. You have no name, it's just a number. And you look on the board that morning, they say, show up at Area X. You show up, they read you your task and you execute. And they say, get back on the truck. And you go back to the barracks, take some intelligence tests, go to bed. You can quit at any time.

[Jocko Willink]

And as you're going through that are people dropping out. So you must have people quitting and then people not making the standard, whatever the standard is that's unknown.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. So you get up in the morning, you find whatever board your number's on. It's always a different group. You go to that task. When you come back, things are gone and people are gone. So you don't know at the time who quit or who got hurt. Because sometimes some things, people will twist their, their leg or maybe fall off an optical course. So you don't know. You don't hear the hubbub because you're in your small task at the time. And then in the morning, because most people self reflect and they'll sneak out on fire guard or something like that and. And leave and they're just gone.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Scott Neal]

And now you're. We started with about 360. We ended with about 56. And out of the 56, 42 were selected.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And that final selection that they're making, what are they basing that on? Like you got a kid that showed up. How long is it? Three weeks.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you get a kid that shows up three weeks, completes all the tasks and gets done and you go, yeah. No.

[Scott Neal]

So there's. Once again, I learned this afterwards, Bob, who you want to have on here as well. He ran selection as well. Right. And so one is physical, obviously it's a, it's can you pass? That's it. Not can you be faster, passer? Do you pass a minimum standard?

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Scott Neal]

And nobody tells you what it is. You just have to pass it. So next is, can you work as a team? So these team tasks, very dynamic. You know, you apply sweat and impossible conditions. And can you operate in a task? So the sergeant has a kind of list as they're observing. You go through these things, right? Do you help? When you help, are you being noticed? Do you help harder? Right. These kind of things. And next is the aptitude portion. So after all these physical tasks, you come back, you'll eat your child. You go back to the classroom, you start taking psychological and memory tests and, and general aptitude test. And that'll start to put you in a bucket. Whether you have skill sets to be a medic, a communication sergeant, dumb like me, weapons sergeant. Right. Bang. All these things, they start to filter that out through the process. And actually I learned that this selection process is part of the Army Human Behavior and Sciences department. So it's very calculated as you go through this process. So at the end, what do you want? You want somebody that's physically, morally right, mentally capable of expeditionary entrepreneurism for the military. Right. Remote, low resources, high stress, you know, solving your own problems because there is no solution other than what you create. So at the end of it, once you're selected, that just begins the training.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you have anything that really challenged you in selection itself or you just kind of a Gray. Gray man type scenario.

[Scott Neal]

I would say Gray Man. My last name is Neil. So I always lined up in the center.

[Jocko Willink]

That's true.

[Scott Neal]

And so, you know, I always kept quiet. I didn't try to game it. I didn't try to read my way through it or ask for advice from others. I just took it every day and did what I was told, like Scotty Gump. And you know, what I went through mentally though, luckily I was a poor kid that worked really hard. Because your brain is the enemy. And it starts lacking sleep, it starts lacking physical capability. Start to doubt yourself. So your losses come from within. And those that surrender to it are the ones that walked off. But there's a reason. Because once again, in a small team, alone or not afraid, you can't walk off the mission. So that part was good. It worked. I mean, the people that have come out have been very successful. Some have escaped through because maybe they were physically gifted. You don't have to be a rocket science, but you can't be totally stupid because then the, the skills training will weed out the stupid.

[Jocko Willink]

Then you get done with that and then it's into the Q course.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And by the way, so now what we were talking about was. So the goal four happened at some point. And you're all looking at that going, dang. You guys were all looking at each other. Go. We just missed that whole thing.

[Scott Neal]

Turn it back on. Hold on a second. You know what I mean? I'm the one. Don't you realize you know what's going on and you can only watch it from afar and maybe a few media sources and you don't understand what Green Berets are doing, let alone seals or any, you know, others mission, anything. You don't know that. And you just know that you're missing. So let's accelerate this. Isn't there some presidential finding that we could be pulled out of class today? And they need me. They need me now. I mean, do I got to write a congressman? But no. And it was over.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Scott Neal]

And you know, then you graduate and you think you're the most capable, physically fit, you know, you're the right tool on the team and they can't wait for you to get there. And I get to my first special Forces team, and here are all these legends that had just, you know, worked with equity underground. They had, you know, fought exceptionally. And here I was a young kid.

[Jocko Willink]

So what were you guys for? What? Where'd you end up at 5th Special Forces Group. Awesome.

[Scott Neal]

So in Special Forces, you're aligned regionally, so 5th Special Forces Group at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. We're aligned towards the Middle East. So when I say Middle east, think about Muslim religion and cultures all the way up to the stands, which has just become open mid-80s all the way down to Saudi and Kuwait, Yemen, then into Africa with Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's a great ao.

[Scott Neal]

Yes. And at the time though, I hated it because everybody was going to Okinawa. Right. They're going to first group in Asia, the fun places. Right. Europe, South America.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Scott Neal]

Here I am going to the desert.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah, that's so the. The SEAL teams used to be oriented geographically as well. And we changed that. Luckily, I think it's luckily, luckily we changed it prior to 911 and to where they started to at least started to change it to where a team was a team and you could deploy that team wherever. But the geographical locations that it used to be was. SEAL Team 1 was Southeast Asia. So think the good times of what you just said. Okinawa, Thailand, Philippines, Guam. And then Seal Team 5 was supposed to be winter, which on the west coast just meant. It just meant one word. Korea. Yes. And I guess northern Japan as well. Seal Team 3 was. Was the Muslims areas that you just mentioned. So that was supposed to be over in the desert in Southwest Asia and then the east coast. Seal Team 2 was Europe. Seal Team 4 was South America. So that, you know, Seal Team 2, everyone want to go to Seal Team 2 and everyone want to go to South America too. So. And then Seal Team 8 ended up being sort of Africa, Africa areas. So it was geographical for a while. And there is still a remnants of that. Yeah, there is still a remnants of that in some form at least, versus east versus West Coast. But guess what? I sat. I was. Had guys with me from Seal Team 8 in. In Iraq. And you know, everyone worked together, so we had to get over it. But at the time for you, were you thinking, well, at least I'm in the area of operations where we will most likely have a conflict.

[Scott Neal]

Or were you justice and no young, excitable Scotty, you know, wanted.

[Jocko Willink]

Because just FYI, I thought I was going to Vietnam. Yes. I thought I was going to Saigon and I thought I was going to the Mekong Delta.

[Scott Neal]

And this is in 1990 when I first got there. You see the legends there. You know, literally a year and a half out from the Gulf War, but then Somalia was kicking on, right? And we had guys going in and out of Kenya and driving up humanitarian assistance into Somalia. So there's always something. Every year we Would go back to Kuwait for three or four months in a rotation just in case there was another invasion. So it was free for all training, all the ammo, all the demolition, anything you, you can't really do back in the States because you're isolated within a military base right over there, free for all.

[Jocko Willink]

Right.

[Scott Neal]

Range, Udari range. I mean, tanks and T72s and close air support and all of these things. It prepped you for the conflict. But then I spent six months in Africa with doctors and vets treating rare cattle diseases and tribes that were being attacked by Somalis rustling their cattle. It was awesome. I mean, lions and tigers and bears every night, and you're trading beads and you're trying to eat with the locals. I mean, it was, believe me, it was full on. I did six, seven months in Pakistan with the dea, you know, learning the drug trafficking and routes. So Lahore to Karachi to everywhere. Once again, small team, alone and not afraid. Those were the perfect, you know, pre war missions that I don't think even anybody realizes the value of being in those environments. And the networks you create in the interagency came from before 9, 11, and how we had to rely on them post.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, no, those are, those are great missions for peacetime military. Going out, living amongst the people. And like you pointed out, that's how we build those relationships with those host nations and we learn about the cultures. Hopefully we capture that information so that we can utilize it in the future and we don't do dumb things. So those are great missions, really.

[Scott Neal]

And, and I wish I, I suspect they're kind of getting a little bit back. We're turning back into a peacetime, so the ebb and flow and, but we have to remind ourselves and our commands, you know, what we did in between, in between, you know, peace in Colombia, we worked heavily with their security forces, special forces, everything to defeat the FARC. It took 30 years. So we now have friends deploying down south and working with those same forces we did before this. We have friends now going back into Africa. What I'm not certain we're ready for is to capture those relationships, right, and keep fostering them. So young commanders keeping up with the young commanders that eventually become three star, four stars of whatever country. And if something happens, you plug back into the software life network and you pull them back into that relationship.

[Jocko Willink]

So you rack up a bunch of deployments during that time. Again, those sound like really good quality deployments for, for that time period. I, I, in that time period, for me, I was doing, I did a I did one deployment that was what we call the spec Ops deployment. We deployed to Guam and then did exercise at Guam. But then we had seals that were in combat in Somalia who had come from a Navy ship and you could volunteer because no one wanted to be on a Navy ship as a seal. And so it was very easy to get that spot if you wanted it. So I looked at it and said, oh, those are, the guys are going to combat. Then me and some of my buddies were like, let's get going. That kind of platoon. So I did two of those platoons and spent a bunch of time driving around in circles off the coast of Somalia, driving around in circles in the Persian Gulf on both those. And then eventually I did a aircraft carrier deployment as well when I was out on the East Coast. And then finally when I was kind of wrapping up my enlisted time, I was working in the, in the training as a training cadre at Seal Team 1. And that's kind of was, was where I spent the 90s. And did you, you ended up as a drill sergeant, didn't you? At some point that had to be interesting.

[Scott Neal]

Awesome. It's not. So, you know, SF just probably like the seals mid career at schoolhouse time. So typically most go back to Fort Bragg or they go, you know, wherever some of these schoolhouses are. And every year Special Forces was required to give four Green Berets to drill sergeant. And so I got notified about four months previously and I was trying out for another element and I'm like, eh, I don't need to go to that. I'm gonna go to this. And literally the week of the, the head of the post school said, hey, you know, you know that your drill sergeant school is coming up in a week. I'm like, what are you talking about? I have no idea. I thought we got rid of this. He goes, no, no, no, no. Well let me call this other sergeant Major. Oh, you're good. Don't worry about it. Comes Friday, hey, you need to pick up your packet to go to drill sergeant school. I'm like, hey, this thing's solved. I don't know who you're talking to. You need to talk to this guy. This guy calls me up about an hour later and says, yeah, I can't work through this. And I picked up my orders to go to drill sergeant school Friday afternoon at 3:30. I showed up on Monday. And you sit there in a big room and they start yelling at you and they say, if you don't want to be here, stand up now. So I'M like, that's easy. I don't want to be here. And I give. Shut up and sit down. And so for two years, I went to Fort.

[Jocko Willink]

How long is drill?

[Scott Neal]

Six months. Maybe it's shorter.

[Jocko Willink]

I can't remember.

[Scott Neal]

I blocked it in my special place, right? It's just repetitive. This is how you march, Private. Stand up, march. You know, it's just barking, this repetitiveness. And so I went to Fort Leonard Wood, which is home with the artillery. So I'm like, I didn't get infantry crap. I went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. And then it was the brand new Jenner Integrated Basic Training, the Summer of Love.

[Jocko Willink]

So this is like 1999 or something.

[Scott Neal]

99 and 2000.

[Jocko Willink]

So this was the viewer there for the first integrated men and women together in an open bay barracks type scenario.

[Scott Neal]

No. You had men on one side of the open bay, and then you had a door. You had women on the other side. But I call it the Summer of Love because you're intercepting love letters. I mean, they're just out of high school, right? And these are the band members, the cooks, all of the other soft side of everything. And I was a senior drill sergeant. So I had other, you know, drill sergeants that were, you know, infantry or mechanics or whatever. And you're just teaching them the basics of basic training, right? How to march, how to organize. You know, you fire a leader every other day. You just. I tell them, private, you paid for this, right? This is your experience. We're going to give it to you. And you know, half the time you're just trying to take something that's clay in a mound and just mold them into something before they leave on and. And, you know, go to whatever specialty they're doing. So every eight weeks, a new batch. Every eight weeks, seven days a week, 3:30 in the morning till you put them to bed at 9:30 at night.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, did you get the. I mean, how many. How many people in it? Was it a company you're putting through?

[Scott Neal]

No, I'm putting a battalion through at a time. So maybe 600.

[Jocko Willink]

How many suicide attempts are there there.

[Scott Neal]

Boy? None successful. Right. Because you have constant touch and watch. Usually it's an AIT where they have time to slow down and think. They got a lousy weekend, their first girlfriend's left them. You know what I mean? They're in such a managed culture of go, go, go. You know, there's. There's all the doubt and all these other things that you just force it out of them, right? There's no breath.

[Jocko Willink]

The reason I asked that is because I.

[Scott Neal]

There's lots of AWOLs.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. I remember kids, like, in my boot camp, there's like, a couple suicide attempts, which is weird. You know, you're kind of like, whoa, like, this kid's four bunks over for me, and he just tried to kill himself with a safety razor or whatever. And it seemed like if you had 600 people going through at a time, you would see a lot of that stuff.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, it was mostly towards the end when you finally, you know, you have no time off the first four weeks, and then maybe four hours to go to church on. On Sunday, you let off the pressure, and then by close to the end, you might have a full day to go to the store, right? You got a couple bucks? And then literally the last week is when you see people, they see the train tracks, as they call them, right? They. There was no member. Is all payphones at the time. They'd all stand in line. A drill sergeant there, and that's mommy and daughter and family. And that was it. It was all scripted today. You know, I can't speak for it, but I can only understand you have kids, unfortunately, that maybe didn't disclose they were on medication or something. So by the time the third, fourth, fifth week comes about and they don't. They don't know how to handle themselves anymore. They were a little chemically, you know, blocked. And they don't know the structure of life. They don't know how to take an astron. They don't know the difficulties of these things. And that adds up.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you get any, like, major insights into human nature when you were doing this, or is it just. Did it become so repetitive?

[Scott Neal]

It becomes repetitive because, once again, control. You have a very scripted format, right? So big army doesn't let you deviate. This isn't. Make it up as you go. So every day as a drill sergeant, you. You have to emotionally break them, right? Take them individually down, make them hate you collectively. Right? So is that what they teach you?

[Jocko Willink]

Do they teach you like, you want to make.

[Scott Neal]

I know it. You know what I mean? Because if I get them to focus on me, they want to outperform me. They want to be up earlier before I get there. You know what I mean? They start plotting and scheming. They know my personality. Then I got a unit. Then I remove myself and I give that unit of that cohort to the military that then shapes them for the new foundation check.

[Jocko Willink]

And you did that for two years. Two years is that. And then You. So you go back to fifth group.

[Scott Neal]

It's the summer of 2001.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Scott Neal]

And, you know, so now I'm communicating. I was only on one team for. Since 91, 92 until I left 99. So do I go back to the same team? But they had started a new unit up in fifth Group that was more of a direct action kind of. They called it the Commanders in Extremist Force. So each group has this regionally oriented kind of SRDA team that's already in the area in case things happen, you could respond to your capability or you can prep for somebody else. And I'm like, oh, I'll do that. Sounds good. Blow stuff up, shoot things, you know, punch people in the face. That's. That's America. I'm angry. You know, two years of being a drill sergeant, I wasn't happy. And we got there and it began the cycle. You now had new funds, new capabilities. You were doing.

[Jocko Willink]

You go to the SIFT team.

[Scott Neal]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Scott Neal]

Oh, yeah. So it was the very beginning, and we got to pull in the best from fifth Group. Right. We started doing exchanges with other units. We started getting on the national exercise program, so doing more complicated things, you know. Now you're like, oh, my God. So we were ready on 1October to go in the Middle east and begin as a SIF company and when.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it. So you were. You guys had done a workup.

[Scott Neal]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

And a training cycle then. That was the first fifth Group SIF to go through a training cycle like that.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's awesome. And then you were prepared to go on deployment to the Middle East. Where we gonna go? Bahrain or Kuwait or something. So you're gonna go there and be on standby for four months or six months or whatever?

[Scott Neal]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

And do a normal deployment.

[Scott Neal]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

And you were gonna leave on October 1st?

[Scott Neal]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. So were you on pre deployment leave or something? On.

[Scott Neal]

No, no, no.

[Jocko Willink]

September 11th.

[Scott Neal]

What were you guys doing September 11th? 595, which is now kind of our sister team. And they had just got back from Uzbekistan. They were training the Spetsnaz in. As you know, the Soviet Union fell apart. They had a lot of nukes and other capabilities. They had Al Qaeda and other elements trying to enter and, you know, sneak through. And also you had the kind of drug markets that were getting into Europe and Russia. So they were training their forces and capability. A typical security force assistance training. And they got home. Mark had just left the team, Bob and Will, and they took our snipers. We had an exercise that weekend. And we were inserting snipers on this faux terrorist training compound and they were sending back signals and digital and all kind of other things.

[Jocko Willink]

And these were SIF snipers.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Scott Neal]

And when the morning of 9 11, we're in a. Probably the second day of our exercise. And I remember the intel sergeant walking in and on the whiteboard he said, the World Trade center has been hit. And we thought it was just part of the exercise scenario escalation. Right. The curveball. And hour later he came in and write the second one's been hit. So we started sending out RFIs requests for information. What does that mean? You know, exercise, exercise, exercise. Guys, you know, what's the complication? So it wasn't until four hours later, then Mulholland came in and said, stop, this is for real. And if you did see the movie, it was the chow hall. Everybody went to the chow hall and saw CNN and they're like, holy crap.

[Jocko Willink]

Cuz you guys were in isolation.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, that's right. I remember they'd put us into, they'd put us in echo. Charles, back in the day, they. For, for an exercise, they would. Part of the exercise would be to get put into quote, unquote isolation and in an ISO fact, an isolation facility. So you'd go in there because, you know, you weren't allowed to talk to anyone. No one's allowed to talk to you. You're focused on the mission. You can't be. You don't want anyone to, you know, talk about what you're going to be doing and all this. So they put you in this ice, so that's where you guys were. And the only information that you're receiving is from the people that are controlling the exercise that you're going to do.

[Scott Neal]

Handler.

[Jocko Willink]

So these. So you guys thought this is just part of the exercise.

[Scott Neal]

Why was it.

[Jocko Willink]

That's right, crazy.

[Scott Neal]

All of a sudden we're got a cell in America, we're uncovering the cell, we're sending back information, we're, you know, doing assets, we're doing all the things that on this checklist of capabilities you're supposed to have. And when they put. The World Trade center has been attacked. It's just. Does this accelerate timing? You know, you start thinking, you know, what does this mean? What are these, these shocks and patterns of, you know, not normal. And so you start thinking through them and request information, you go further. So we literally thought that was it.

[Jocko Willink]

So now it was. Now you go to the chow hall.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you guys, like, I'm sure we all Knew it's time to go to war.

[Scott Neal]

It's time to go to war. So we were already packed and ready to go. So now what to do? The world's in chaos. They shut down the airways. Presentations need to be presented to multiple commands to remind them, you know, that we're a capable, competent force. We work for you. So you have to do a little bit of salesmanship again because everybody's in chaos. You have, you know, obviously national forces, you know, in theater forces, all these other things. You start to see that it became, you know, who's going to get what. Mark and Bob, their team was put back together again because they just came from the area. So you start to see two parallel paths where the unconventional side was being formed. They didn't know exactly what to do with the direct action side. So we move forward into Kuwait, and then we moved into an island off the coast.

[Jocko Willink]

Were you married at the time?

[Scott Neal]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

So you were just a young single dude not giving a shit about it.

[Scott Neal]

That's what you say. This is how it ends, right? This is how legends are made.

[Jocko Willink]

Let's go.

[Scott Neal]

But to move a company of our size with our capabilities, it requires a lot of airlift. Right. We don't. We don't move lightly. It's no more one team, one. See, you know, we have vehicles, we've got platforms, we got things. So to get us over to the playground, it took a lot, but luckily we had it done and ahead of time. I actually went into Yemen first. So prior to.

[Jocko Willink]

Prior to getting to Kuwait, you went to Yemen. Like, how many guys you go to Yemen? We still do a site survey to see what's going on there.

[Scott Neal]

At the time, everybody wanted to help America, and everybody realized they had an al Qaeda problem. So. So if everybody came on the network, they would get funding and fighters and they would, you know, it was the time. And so Yemen had reached out. They had their own cells and problems, and they sent a small team to work with our counterparts to see what we could do to provide, you know, aid and capabilities, not only on the close family protection side. They're always worried about themselves, these leaders, and then what kind of force, what could they get, what kit, what lethal aid packages, whatnot. So we went in there, evaluated them, went all over Yemen.

[Jocko Willink]

So this is you and one other guy.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Who's like. Is it your team sergeant? What's your role in this? What's your position?

[Scott Neal]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

Are you still a weapons sergeant?

[Scott Neal]

No, I'm what they call a cell leader. So now we're organizing troops, so three teams, you know, 12 for sniper, 24 assaulters, headquarters element. So I'm a cell leader with, with about six, seven guys. But this was such a pieced together opportunity. They just needed a couple guys just to go evaluate.

[Jocko Willink]

So did you. How'd you find, how'd you get to Yemen? Was it civilian aircraft?

[Scott Neal]

Flew in. Yeah, flew in. You know, you have your link ups meet you at one side of the airport and you get the shakedown. You say nothing, you do nothing. The embassy, you know, comes by and picks you up and then you're gone.

[Jocko Willink]

How much time do you spend in Yemen?

[Scott Neal]

Probably a week and a half, two weeks.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's still so. It's so it's hard to look at things in a pre 911 mentality because in post 911 and as we began to actually fight, like we all got so much experience that to think about what it was like going into. For you going into Yemen.

[Scott Neal]

The beginning of the beginning.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Scott Neal]

Right. So I mean, here I am going into gun souks, you know, looking at can you buy off the black market or market and equip people, what resource avail you're looking at at the time, they were called the rangers, or we called them the Rangers. You'd see them do a couple things. You'd watch them go on a mission. It's just. That's the old oss, Lawrence of Arabia, right. They don't know what is needed or what's going on or whatever. Big people are thinking about big things. We need you to go just evaluate and assess, build some packages, work with the elements in the embassy and hold fast.

[Jocko Willink]

How long did you spend there?

[Scott Neal]

A week and a half.

[Jocko Willink]

Week and a half. And then you go to Kuwait?

[Scott Neal]

Well, we go back to Kuwait, then we go further into the Gulf and that's when the war had begun. So in the beginning of the war, it was really an air campaign and they tried to bomb anything that they thought was relevant. But we once again, big Air Force and big targeting planners are looking for bridges and tank depots and things of conventional forces. After about two days of that, they don't know what to do now. And so, you know, as we start hearing the chatter come in, the unconventional side, you know, it was proposed that, hey, we used to work with the Mujahideen. Let's find some resistance fighters. A couple had reached out because they had saw some congressional delegations and other people when they traveled abroad. So they started using literally an old business card and called an individual, an individual called a buddy in The Pentagon, the Pentagon called him back the next day. He called him back and said, I'll take fighters. And that's how the unconventional side started.

[Jocko Willink]

And then where, when did you, what were you hearing you were going to do? Like, how did that, how did the planning and preparation for you going into Afghanistan? How long did that take and what.

[Scott Neal]

It looked like it started in. So October 19th, the first two SF teams went in. Then you had a national force, which is now disclosed, went in to Omar's compound. You had the rangers that jumped into south of Kandahar. So you start thinking strategically, how are we going to move forward and position forward forces? Because things were landlocked. They didn't really have a relationship in Pakistan to maneuver. Uzbekistan was still on the edges. Right. Still remnants and influence of Soviet. So they realized they needed some, you know, on the edges, airfield capability. So that's what you saw go for. So initially the two teams, one was maneuvering towards Kandahar, the other Masra Sharif and north to capture that airfield, which was a heavy lift capable airfield. And then we started planning for central Afghanistan, you know, airfield seizure, hold, resist. You know, it was kind of in.

[Jocko Willink]

A way like you guys were going to be utilized for what you had trained to do.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Which is kind of nice.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. So what started happening, we started seeing through messaging and human intelligence that all of these unconventional battles, you now have chaos within the Taliban and their Al Qaeda brothers. They're over communicating. So now you have capabilities that would hear this chatter and they would start meeting up behind the scenes trying to figure out how to contain resist. They didn't know what's going on. So now you start to figure out that they're meeting in certain areas. So that becomes the picture perfect. We need more surgical and a capability that can strike precision behind the lines versus unconventional mad Max, front of the lines things. And that's what got us into the game.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Because that's really just so everyone understands. So that's, that's like absolutely the capability that your unit was 100% direct action. Oh, we, we're going to know the locations of bad guys through various intelligence sources. And when we know where they are, we need to go send people to go get them.

[Scott Neal]

We followed the script and the script, you know, usually you'll try to put eyes on whether it's electronic or human eyes. You get pattern of life. You communicate. You determine whether that is false. Right. By pattern of activity. It could just been a rival saying, I don't like this person, or none of the indicators at the time would, would warrant a package or somebody coming in. Then there's a trigger event. You go, you hit all around it because you can't. At the time, we weren't very good at saying that's the compound because there's 40 compounds. So you have to isolate all of it. And then smart men make smart decisions. You could, I could run into an objective and know this isn't it, or you can run in and it's the hornet's nest. And so you use all your dark arts to speed violence of action.

[Jocko Willink]

I forgot to ask you this. Did you have a language?

[Scott Neal]

I did. I had.

[Jocko Willink]

Because back in the day, I don't know, does SF still go to language that's still part of the pipeline.

[Scott Neal]

Persian, Farsi, which is Iranian. And then never spoke it because I was always in the Middle east for Arabic modern standards. So I took modern standard classes then in Africa at Swahili. So if you learn 20, 30 words, how to count to 10. Do you speak English? Does your friend speak English? Can you call somebody speaks English? You can get around. And you always will find that English is the business language. There's always somebody. So you just learn to be conversationally and pleasant and whatnot. You're never really technical.

[Jocko Willink]

Dude, they, they, they threw a language program into the pipeline for seals. For a little while, it just was.

[Scott Neal]

Such a hands up, you know what I mean? Stop.

[Jocko Willink]

It's just like we were so bad. I, I think it's part of, you know, the, the culture of Green Berets when, you know, that's the, that's what you guys do. It's like we go and work with the indigenous forces. But it's a level of pride that you can speak a language and speak it well and all that. Seals are just like, yo, what? I don't want to learn how to talk like that.

[Scott Neal]

You know, just distracting me from my other test. I was like that too. But there's a difference between speaking a language and growing up in the culture and understanding the nuances of three cups of tea. You know the book about, sit down, get to know each other, talk about your family, where's the weather? You beat around the bush. And it was the same way when you work with indigenous forces. I mean, they're humans, they're gorillas, they're part time ish. You know, they're a little slow on wanting to go charge down the hill and take a battle. And you have to, you know, it's like talking to your cousins, like starting a cousin army, right?

[Jocko Willink]

So as you guys are recognizing that, okay, they've got targets. We're gonna go. I mean, how freaking pumped are you guys at this point?

[Scott Neal]

Now, our first mission was like everything you trained to be, right? You get on the helicopter, you get off the helicopter, you run to the objective, you explosively breach outer perimeter, inner perimeter. You start encountering people, you move through the objective, you start doing ssc. You could. It could have been training exercise or how we operated now with two ways and downfire.

[Jocko Willink]

So. So this is. So you get. You get to Afghanistan, and how do you guys get there?

[Scott Neal]

Like she said, I took a. From the location, Kandahar was starting to fall. They just took it over the airfield. They wanted a. A precision team because displacement of leadership. And they, they. They wanted to find them, right? So we loaded up that day. I remember they called in a 1:30 that was doing a milk run, diverted him from going to Qatar. He landed. He had two nurses in the back. We backed in our trucks, our gun trucks loaded for bear. And we said, here's the destination. And the nurses are like, what are we supposed to do? I'm saying, well, you could stay or you can get off, but we commandeered to 130. And that was it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You had to just be so freaking fired up.

[Scott Neal]

It was so. Same thing. You land, it's still rolling, the tailgate's down. You roll the trucks off, and you, you go for it.

[Jocko Willink]

Then you. You get there and did you already have the, like, your first target package? You knew what you were gonna hit, so you get on the ground. You have a little bit of time to establish.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. Kanahar traveling light.

[Jocko Willink]

So you didn't have any kind of anything. You were just a mobile assault force, so. Which is kind of awesome. Well, like, how many computers did you have with you?

[Scott Neal]

Enough at the time. You had those little Panasonic tough books. That was it. And enough to write us something up and put it in to digitize it and send it off.

[Jocko Willink]

Nowadays, Echo Charles, that damn assault force is showing up with 500 people. Printers, power points, printers, the whole nine yards. Lamination machines.

[Scott Neal]

You're in a different world when you see the printers come out, you're like.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, there it is.

[Scott Neal]

Things change. But it. So it was on the fly. You start doing what you do. You build train models out of cardboard boxes for ammunition and Styrofoam. And you kick open a crate, and I could show you photos of just areas of. Of where they start hearing chatter. So as they develop it more, you start planning you know, who goes left, who goes right. Start coordinating your aviation assets. And then one night it's. You put in the SOS and you see what they. They see, and you show up there.

[Jocko Willink]

And you are part of this Task Force K Bar. Task Force K Bar was actually being run by a seal, a captain. Think it was a captain at the time, Captain Harward.

[Scott Neal]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

And interestingly, the whole. The whole thing was also being run by a SEAL by a guy named Burt Calland, who was an admiral at the time. And it's interesting because Calland was my second CO at SEAL Team 1, and Harward was one of my commodores along the way. So here it was. What are the chances that both those guys are in the senior positions for the kickoff of this war? That's because there's not a lot of seals compared to. Compared to SF for sure.

[Scott Neal]

I think it was a sign of the times that came about from the relationships in Somalia. So if you look at, you know, Black Hawk down, for example, but then how many seals that eventually went on to leadership with Olson. Right. The dynamics of this joint operation changed it. And culturally, you could say one thing. Operational. How do you report up? How do you get approval? You're always trying to. So all you want to do is present factual, demonstrate that you're capable and competent, and earn trust within the leadership that they give you the go. Right. And I think that became the first thing we had, our very first mission. It was. We were starting to get in other elements they didn't know what to do with the Dutch, the Germans, the New Zealanders, the Australians that were coming in. Right. So all of a sudden you put together a mission. They're like, no, no, no, not your. Let's do the New Zealanders today. And it's like, okay, let's plan. Obviously, they got lots of mountains and they know about hindsights. And. Okay. So we started doing what I call old fashioned Green Beret confidence targets around the area of Kandahar. Don't know exactly this thing. We've got some intel, let's put some eyes on. Let's do pattern life. So you're practicing rehearsing like a kindergarten band, Right. To make sweet music. And then people are getting more trusting of each other. And then finally, I think the first couple.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's what you guys were doing. You guys were going out and doing little recce.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, were these rural recce or urban recce? Rural, rural. So you're going up in a mountain.

[Scott Neal]

Somewhere in the mountains or outside the edges of Kandahar. You know, once again, the militias had already taken over inside of Kandahar. And, you know, there's a whole nother story of the hospital where some Al Qaeda were holed up. So there's pockets and you don't know where people have fled. So now there's total unorganized chaos on leadership. And where are they reconsolidating is what you want to find. So you don't want to find masses of 2, 300. They didn't exist anymore. They were four commanders, you know, three people seeing each other, couriers know, dispatching information, trying to find out, you know, caches, things like that. So the first couple missions were, you know, more confident. They weren't really okay, there's 20 bad guys, and these are the bad guys, and they're going to resist you. So you're going to go in, guns ablaze. And it was. We don't know. We don't have the assets. We're not mature back then like we have today. And where you have 360 of, you know, capabilities. Then it was like, yeah, the punches.

[Jocko Willink]

I was sitting here thinking about the maturity level of the US Military at the time, and it was like, not super mature. Because it just. When you're doing it for real, it. There's so many things that come into play that you're just not just. You just. They're just not there. In every training exercise in the world that just doesn't bring the same element to it. There's like, there's something that you can't train for.

[Scott Neal]

No. Because it's real. Right. And I could sit here and tell you the first times of. The first times you shoot at a vehicle and the tires don't explode. You know what I mean? It's like goddamn Hollywood. But come on now, you know, and the first time you breach into things, you get a missed breach. It doesn't open up all the way. You're trying to crash yourself through and out. You know, all these things are like, note to self. Okay, that was stupid.

[Jocko Willink]

The first time I got shot, I was in a Humvee. And I'm looking at the Humvee in front of me, and also I'm looking, I'm like, who the hell is smoking? Because I'm seeing, like, little sparks coming off. I'm like, who's flicking their cigarettes out of that vehicle? Like, what is wrong? Well, why is someone in my platoon smoking? No one smokes. Why is someone smoking all of a sudden? Oh, sure enough, they're getting shot at.

[Scott Neal]

Cool.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it.

[Scott Neal]

Well, you know, the first time you shoot a rocket, you don't have your hearing in, you know, disease things. Combat becomes, you know, increasing. First time you shoot at somebody but you got suppressors, you know what I mean? You're like. It's. It's. They're all things we all collectively needed to learn, you know. Now, 20 years later, I wonder if the new elements coming up have received those lessons that we put those things in place. So, you know, after I got back from that deployment, I also had the Special Forces Advance Urban Combat Committee. And we tried to program these things. And because we had learned a lifetime of lessons in one deployment, but we had Special Forces guys redeploying in urban environments now, especially Iraq, that they didn't have the depth we had and we couldn't solve. We couldn't race to everybody else's urban problem.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. So going back to this, you guys do some recce. You guys were out there, you're getting your feet wet. You're getting. You're developing a little rapid maturity of like, okay, I'm off. I went outside the wire. We maintained communications. We didn't have any accidental discharge.

[Scott Neal]

Yes, Ranger sergeant. We passed this stage. We all came back with, you know, men, mission and material complete. And then we did our first. This is it. And it was about a five compound spread. And we had some partner forces with us that were going to be the outer court on. And. And we realized that we couldn't use. Typically you have 1/60, which is, you know, very well known, very precise. They've played this game a while because of the distance we had to take. Air Force 53s and they're not known as combat landing capable. So we're flying. We're flying. It's about four hours at altitude. In weather, you know, you're trying not to freeze. You're getting fueled and you'd land, and it takes off. And you do not know where on God's green Earth you exist. And it's like landing on the moon. And you realize that your night vision only sees so far. And then what do you do? Pull out your compass? So we turn on one. GPS can't find itself. You say, gotta move. It's like the Ranger Sergeant in your ear. You know what I mean? What you gonna do, private? What you gonna do? So we start moving up to high ground and somebody goes over the radio and says, what about landmines? So do you crouch on the ground and look for the three little sticks that you see in a Movie. You don't know what to do. Then we start moving out once again to a little high ground. And then a helicopter flies over us. We're like, okay, let's follow the path of the helicopter. And then somebody says on the microphone, what if they're taking off and leaving? Are we running? It just starts happening. You're like, now you're in total blackout, chaos. You just don't know what to do.

[Jocko Willink]

This is your first mission.

[Scott Neal]

This is the first one. Big, big. Yeah, this is it. This how it ends. Mission.

[Jocko Willink]

So how far away from the target were you?

[Scott Neal]

We were. They put us 300 meters off.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, that's actually not bad.

[Scott Neal]

Right. But there was a rise, a hill in between us, so we couldn't see the compound because the limitations. And as soon as we got to the top, you can see.

[Jocko Willink]

And by the way, echo Charles, I'm saying 300 meters isn't that bad because I've gotten out of helicopters and been like, oh, damn it. It's the, it's, it's two clicks away.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

With a ridgeline. And they landed. You know when you're in a helicopter, by the way, like a thousand yards is. Like a thousand meters. Is, is, is 30, 20 seconds. It's like, oh, you want to land? Oh, yeah, we're in the spot. Yeah. This week. We there? Yeah, we're there. Okay. Boom. They set you down. You just, you just traveled, you know, two kilometers, which is going to take you six hours or four hours to cover in the ground, which you could have covered in 30 seconds out of a helicopter. So 300 meters, I get to the.

[Scott Neal]

Top, I look down. I was part of the breach element. And then the assault element is gathering on the outside of the compound. And there's no breaches there, you know, for the heavy outside. So I take off running, you know what I mean? I'm running at them, but then I'm trying not to yell, you know, it's me, it's me. I'm coming behind you. Please look, you know, don't turn around and smack me. And I run past him and I see Tony and, and Jay trying to put some small charges up against this big massive outdoor. So Afghanistan was very compound where you had an outer 20 foot wall, you know, three feet thick, like dungeon medieval times. And it took a lot to penetrate it effectively. And I smacked their hands, I put on my charge and I said, run, because I did the short fuse one, you know what I mean? It's not the. We've got to plan this.

[Jocko Willink]

It's the big one and the short fuse.

[Scott Neal]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like two things that go together.

[Scott Neal]

Whites of their eyes glowing green. And I said, run. You pull it, and as soon as it goes off, you run in. There was. They had a log on the back of the doors, the two outer doors. I see it flipping through the sky. You know what I mean? And then you're like. And you're crying because this is. This is how it ends, right? This is. This is everything you had hoped for. And you run into the compound and you begin, you know, your. Your process of just making your breach. And I came up to the window. I raked and breaked and threw in a flashbang, and it hit something and dropped right into the threshold there and exploded. And then the salt element runs past me and goes to the first door, blows in. And it was a donkey inside the building in a small area. So there's, you know, 10 assault.

[Jocko Willink]

But you took that donkey by surprise.

[Scott Neal]

Until he started kicking.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, how do you treat.

[Scott Neal]

How do you put that on the Purple Heart, right? I had to.

[Jocko Willink]

I had to say one of. We come on this building. We're in Iraq. We come on this building, and, you know, we had this big, big plan. And, you know, I'm the assault force commander, so I'm probably the number two guy to get to the door. I kind of step back, let the boys go in, and, you know, all of a sudden I hear like, you know, I get in there. It's a stable. It's. It's like they had been using this building as a stable, and there's a bunch of freaking donkeys in there. And the target was approximately 12ft to my right, the actual target building. So we did a little trick transition, but, yeah, those animals be funny sometimes.

[Scott Neal]

It gets weirder. Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

Just getting warmed up.

[Scott Neal]

More happens. So Tony, who was my team sergeant, brute of a man, was the all army weightlifter in Europe. Hands as thick as sausages. Smart like tractor. Brilliant guy. We finally go around because it was failed brief.

[Jocko Willink]

I like him already.

[Scott Neal]

Go around the other side. We breach in. It was a long hallway, and then you go to the first door, and it had a blanket over it. So once again, what training exercise is that to even conceive it? So you push it aside, you rush in, and it's just nothing, but it's squishy and there's no furniture, and you're just like bouncing in a bouncy house. You're like, what the heck is this? And they had stacked carpets up, and that's how they had beds and there was no person in there. But all of a sudden we started seeing movement in the corner. We're like, o, oh, crap. And now you're under nods. Your visions are differently, depths are differently. And we go to draw back and we see these little hands pull this carpet, which is a blanket up. And she sits up and it's a little girl. And she starts screaming and crying. You're like, you ever watch cops? You know what I mean? And you're like, oh, crap, Dad's probably in the other room, you know, what do you do now? There's no scenario where you now have civilians. And Tony starts moving into another corner and they had something stacked and he think it's the body. So he starts kicking and, you know, beating up grain sacks. But then you go and you say, do you leave the person there or do you keep going through? And so when we get out to the middle, other assaulters that come in, but then the building, you know, has a fire going on. What are you gonna do? Right? So I ended up with this little girl on my hip outside, you know, directing the cell during combat. You know, they're finishing off in the corner. Now you're an sse. Part of the building's on fire. All of a sudden you recall that there's a bank of computers and Thorai cell phones, you know, now let's get back into burning building. This is why we're here. And let's start picking our way through that, right? Then you start your collection points and you find mama had abandoned everything. So you bring the kid over to mama and it's all these things become the truth that we experienced from then on. And, you know, from before that, it was always, you know, let's train as you fight. No, no, that's not how you're going to fight. And so we had to adapt very quickly.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes, some of those things, you know, eventually, because I ended up running the training out here for the west coast seals. And we had civilian actors we'd hire. We had women, Arabic speaking women, middle aged women that would, you know, be yelling and screaming. Then we got to a point where we would just want to do things that the guys would not expect. So I'd, you know, I tell my cadre like, hey, you know, let's get, get. Give them something to think about. I remember I, I'm standing outside in a hallway and I see where is a target out in the desert? And I see like the assault train get to a room and they like, open the door. And. And like, there's a couple stutter steps, which you don't see a lot of. Stutter steps. You know, at this point in training, you don't see a lot of. I see a couple stutter steps. I'm like. And then like, oh. And like, not. No, not a get down. Not. I'm like, what did my guys put in there? So I walk up and I. My guys had two guys in there dressed up like clowns, and they were having a pie eating contest. So that's what these guys walked in on. And the thing is, as funny as that story isn't, as stupid as it is, just like you just said, what do you do?

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Is if someone's sitting there with a clown outfit on and they have a pie in their hand, what do you do with that person? How do you handle that? And the fact of the matter is there's going to be things in combat that might as well be a clown. Two clowns, sitting, eating a.

[Scott Neal]

Because it shocks your brain the same.

[Jocko Willink]

Way it shocks your brain. You. You couldn't have conceived of this idea, and you're gonna have to do something about it. And like I said, we're talking about the maturity of us as war fighters. You went into a room, there's a little girl in there, and you're like, wait, how is this even happening? It shocked your brain because. And it's so obvious. What, there's children in Afghanistan. I know. It's like, of course there's gonna be children in these buildings. We didn't think of those things as obvious as they are. And so I thought that was. That was really important. And that's why I think, you know, the way that we eventually adjusted our training was it was. And I was having a conversation with some seals the other day is the training might not be exactly what you're going to see in theater, but it has to be training that provokes you to have to think and, and make decisions. And if you can make a decision in this urban environment and you can make a decision in this jungle environment, and you can make a decision in this CQC environment, well, then when you get in this environment you haven't quite been in, you still can go through those same protocols to make a decision at that time. So it's a lot of lessons that we learned.

[Scott Neal]

Well, one thing I took away is on an objective, if you're the assault leader or the, you know, troops are major or, or whatever senior level leadership is resisting the temptation to be the leader in the door because you need to be the logic leader. What's going on? And smelling things. This is going too easy. Oh, let's start coordinating. Let's move people to the left and right because, you know, everybody will get sucked in to the noise. And if you're not a mature logic leader, sitting back, you know, letting and hearing and smelling, and I call it, you know, the X ring and the ten ring and this eight ring and nine ring. It takes a lot of leadership and experience to, you know, look at those as well.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And even that story I just told about we were hitting that target ended up being a stable. I. Even when I told that story, I was like, I was probably the number two or three guy. Get to the door, and you. There's. You can't. Sometimes you just end up there. But just taking a step back. And my guys knew if they saw me and I was doing something that it was going to engage me in a minor tactical scenario, whether it's prisoner handling or doing room entries. Look, do you got to do room entries? Of course. But we're approaching the target. It's really easy for me to take a step back, guys, fill in that spot. And that way I'm not the number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 guy.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And now by the time, oh, they're shooting inside or there's not shooting inside or there's donkeys. And I can say, okay, if there's donkeys, this building, it's probably not the building we're supposed to be hitting. And there's a building right next to us that looks almost the same. Let's hit that one. And I can make that call. Whereas if I'm in there in a, in a, in a donkey fight, I'm not making any decisions. I'm not thinking. So those are important things to learn about. So that's. That's the first big mission. How did it, how did it conclude? Did you guys roll up a bunch of computers and the riot phones, a bunch of things.

[Scott Neal]

And it turned into a special forces selection event. Because one of the events, you have to carry these crates, right? Full of ammo and stuff, and your hands are bleeding. So now you're post mission, you're consolidating. You only have one hour to be there because of the distance and everything. And if you didn't make the helicopter in one hour, it's 24 hours later reset. So you're like, okay, now you're the time master, right? And the guy's calling out time. We move to our rendezvous location. You don't Know who else is encountered or what's going on. And the first helicopter that comes in crashes, his front landing gear takes off. So now you're down one. Okay, let's cycle in the second one. Who's the priority? Let's put, you know, some people on here and some objects. It comes third helicopter quit in the air, refuse to land. So now you're down to three helicopters. So all these scenarios were true. And then luckily we had one Marine 53 with triple engines that could go, you know, beyond tort that stuffed the rest of the assault force in there and we took off and went home and unwound.

[Jocko Willink]

How was the op tempo after that one?

[Scott Neal]

Every third night.

[Jocko Willink]

And so you guys got into a good groove?

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, yeah. Every third night some. One objective was the hornet's nest, right. And it was very complex, it was multiple buildings. Some went in, you know, behind the mountain because of the helicopter wash and walked in and staged. We took in vehicles because it was in the middle of town. And that objective we started, you know, seeing there were people on it. So you're starting to hear chatter that you've got active. And then there's the question, do we just bomb it and soup it up or do we keep going? So they said keep going. And we moved into the compound and instantly somebody came running out and you grab a hold of them and so it begins. And There was maybe 24 assaulters, took out 22 guys and was over in a minute and a half.

[Jocko Willink]

What were the 22 guys doing?

[Scott Neal]

It was, they, it was a schoolhouse and they had thought that we wouldn't take it down. So people had learned things we would or wouldn't do, you know, based on how we articulate ourselves at times. They had taken vehicles, so there were 17 SUVs, a couple, you know, anti aircraft guns. So everything said that's a, a meeting place. And when you go running into the school, it was an open compound. We came into the back and they were already outside talking to each other. And so it was.

[Jocko Willink]

So you caught him off guard?

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, instantly it was on. And so I went down, got pinned down, you know, with some guys that were firing outside the windows because it's a compound. And Tony and another guy went in the very first room. And the number two guy is, he's going to go in. Somebody came out the next room beside him. So he got caught right then and there. So Tony ended up in the first room by himself. And that's where he did hand to hand. Four guys, killed them all, basically broke his Collarbone, you know. So now the firefight's on. There's probably about seven rooms all together.

[Jocko Willink]

When he did hand to hand, where was his weapons?

[Scott Neal]

Like so if you run into a room and somebody's beside you and you're coming this way, they just grab.

[Jocko Willink]

They got hold of his gun.

[Scott Neal]

So he shot one because the number.

[Jocko Willink]

Two man didn't come in. Because the number two man was previously occupied.

[Scott Neal]

Next guy came out of the next room. I mean it was just absolutely ended.

[Jocko Willink]

Up with a one man room entry. And somebody literally grabbed his barrel, which we do that to people, people all the time in training, like grab their barrel.

[Scott Neal]

So now you're under knot, right? You're alone. Firefights are happening, you know, simultaneously, multiple, everything right then and there. And so I go into the next room. I remember I didn't have time to put a charge on, so I, I kicked. It kind of came open. I threw a flashbang. But as I'm flashbangs out of my hand, I look down, I see a guy laying on the ground with his gun up at me. So I immediately step on his barrel. And then you start going into the room and there's about seven guys in there and they're all trying to shoot out the window or out the back.

[Jocko Willink]

And so you surprised him to the point that you got to shoot these guys in the back that they were shooting out the window.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, I mean it was full on.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it was nice.

[Scott Neal]

By the time we came into the center of the compound and we started our first engagement, they started shooting. I mean, we're talking seven or eight meters now. You know, when you start shooting ak, it lifts up, right? So instantly everybody's squatting. Now they're in a duck walk because, you know the guys are getting shot at and you, you literally go into this room and they're all trying to face the windows. So you're actually in the center of the room.

[Jocko Willink]

That's awesome.

[Scott Neal]

Engaging that way. So once again, how do you train to that? Then the next room, the one guy, we took off, he had his hands up and I say it proceeded. The gun trucks came around. There was guys fighting on the outside now. So now we had some outside contact. We had to clear through the130, started spotting sprinters, which later on you'd learn that the actual leader, they disengage quickly and make a run for it.

[Jocko Willink]

So did you guys have any wounded?

[Scott Neal]

Not on that compound. The one up north got somebody shot.

[Jocko Willink]

And that was like, what number mission was that in the or, how long Three. Oh, that was number three.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that was a. That was an s. Quick escalation.

[Scott Neal]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Into. Into the.

[Scott Neal]

So you know when you hit. Right. That's it. Other ones we would hit. And the SOS were there for 24 hours. A lot of chatter. It was a crossing station, we're waiting for somebody particular. So you had to do a change out of positions. One of the guys got a kidney stone. So imagine the medic trying to bring him in and out because he's a commo guy. I mean, just things. Freak snowstorm, they send back a picture. They're covered, you know, a foot of snow on them. They're like suckers.

[Jocko Willink]

Right.

[Scott Neal]

I don't want to be an SO No. So that was Afghanistan until big army came in and said, turn the war back on, we need somebody to shoot at. And Anaconda happened.

[Jocko Willink]

And also while this is happening, you had the guys from 525.

[Scott Neal]

The.

[Jocko Willink]

The horse soldiers are 595. The horse soldiers, those are your buddies and they're running the whole. What is it? Horse soldiers book. 12 strong book. Well became 12 strong book became move the 12 strong movie. And now there's an actual real book. Not real book, but there's a. A book that was actually written by Mark.

[Scott Neal]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

And Bob, who have decided that if someone's going to tell their story, it.

[Scott Neal]

Should be the people that did it. So the first foray and once again, cultures, again, it kind of wasn't in our culture to talk and you know, think about storytelling because we were still in, I mean, Iraq war, everything. The first one that came in actually while we were all still there was Robin Moore and he had wrote the book the Green Berets, the French Connection. So he's kind of like the patriot writer of Green Beret stories. So he heard this and he came in, but he was very, very old and he had, he was co opted by somebody that kind of led him astray. And so his book he produced was half washed, half made up, half everything because nobody wanted to talk or say anything. And then when they finally somebody was approaching the command, just use his name D, you know, started to get about a day's worth of the story and it was all fake names. And then it was like, I don't know if we want to talk anymore. And they left. So that book is small percent of one position of the story. Nobody's went in and nobody's gone back and took all the unconventional teams and the DA team and tried to place it at one time. So there's never been a totality of stories because none of the guys knew what other guys did. So once you get back to the team room, you know, you don't talk about Fight Club. So nobody talked about what you did or what you did or what you did. War just continued.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And at the time, like, you care, but you don't care that much.

[Scott Neal]

No, it's like, I got my own story.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like, oh, cool. Oh, yeah. I heard you guys did some good. Oh, yeah, we did. That's cool. That's about the conversation. Like, maybe there's one little. Oh, yeah. Hey, make sure you put your magazines over here. Don't put your radio over there. But other than that, it's funny, the SOG guys from Vietnam, like, they had no idea what. They didn't even know each other in many cases.

[Scott Neal]

Nope, nope. Same thing with a team room. You're isolated in a. That's. I was only on two teams for 17 years. 12 guys. That's it.

[Jocko Willink]

But the book, that is out now.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Swords. Swords of Lightning. And it.

[Scott Neal]

So Mark and Bob, you know, we've become friends. Mark came over to our unit after he left 595. And that's how our friendship became closer and closer. So you do know each other, and your kids play ball together, and you're just in the same neighborhood. And fast forward when we started this business. Hey, you know Mark, do you want to go to a distiller? Yeah, let's go to distillery. Hey, I know somebody that's an sas. Just go to England and see a distillery in England. So this thing organically. But then I was there in Tampa when somebody called up and said, hey, you know, they're doing a movie. Like, what? What do you mean? Well, you know, they got actors and everything. Are you guys advising? They're like, what movie you're talking about? And literally flew out there on a Friday, went to set on a Saturday. The lawyers asked him to leave by Saturday afternoon, and that was that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I just was.

[Scott Neal]

So he wanted to write a book saying, okay, everybody else is telling these stories. Let me put it down.

[Jocko Willink]

That's awesome. Yeah, I was. I was listening to an interview with Mark, and I just was a part of a movie. So I've written a bunch of kids books got made into a movie. But one of the things that Mark was saying is the same thing that you just said, which is the movie had begun filming when Mark showed up. And look, are there some changes you can make when the movie's begun filming? Kind Of. But, but it's like the frame of the house is there.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And maybe you can select what color paint you want on the cabinets. But other than that, man, the whole, the foundation, the room layout, the plumbing, the electrical, you're not moving that stuff once it's already been cut of, bought and paid for.

[Scott Neal]

It's once again, it's. We don't understand the process culturally in sf. You know, I could talk to lots of other friends that have been in the business and they understand when they're involved and when they're not. The. The movie, they told them at the end it's a movie, not a documentary. So sometimes you're trying to question, you know, it wasn't exactly like this. Na na na. A movie, you need love interests and you need a little tension. And there's about two prime characters, you know. So after the movie was made, it ran into some controversy, obviously, the name Horse Soldiers. The Wayne family had owned IP and they wouldn't release it, so they had to change the name, which was a big no, no.

[Jocko Willink]

That's why it got changed. Huh.

[Scott Neal]

And nobody was going to participate after it was done. But the command said, hey, we actually freemares aren't doing so good. You know, recruiting perspective, recruiting wise and media wise. Let's embrace this movie. And there's some resistance. It's like, eh. And then they said, we'll let you go to the red carpet premiere. We're like, oh. Then the wives were like, oh, red carpet. Did you say Chris Hemsworth? And so it's like, okay, they got us. And then how this business started we're in today is we literally were traveling the world just as friends, making some whiskey for fun with some other veterans. And we didn't know if it was going to be a business or not. So we kind of like the.

[Jocko Willink]

I hope you're getting. Even though you didn't know it was going to be a business. Were we getting tax write offs? Were we writing off trips to England and whatnot?

[Scott Neal]

We didn't make enough money to get a tax write off. You know what I mean? It's like, okay. But we said, we're only coming to the red carpet party if we can bring some of this whiskey we're making. They're like, sure. So we literally went, poured some in a bottle, printed off on a laser printer a label, and called it Horse Soldier and took it to the red carpet premiere. That's how the business started.

[Jocko Willink]

Who do you say owned the rights to Horse soldier?

[Scott Neal]

Wayne family, 1959. The Horse Soldiers. Oh, dang.

[Jocko Willink]

And then how did you print the label off and get permission to use the. The name for the whisk, the bourbon.

[Scott Neal]

We didn't know what you're supposed to do or not do that you're not supposed to transport alcohol across state lines and blah, blah, blah. We just learned how to make it and we made it for fun. So we're like, oh, here we go.

[Jocko Willink]

How about once you were going for it though, did you have to buy that name from them?

[Scott Neal]

Oh. So the. The journey of starting a business, right? So we were in transition. Some guys were still in. Bob was still in. He was the head of selection. Mark was still. Still playing contractor warrior overseas. So we were in different places and, you know, we started going to craft distilleries because it was fun thing for friends to get together and go see how vodka was made of rum. We take. We had done a 10 day horse and mule train through Yellowstone and we gave up the horses and we're going out the west gate and we saw a craft distillery sign that said free tours and tastings. We're like, free. This is what men do, right? We mosey up to the bar.

[Jocko Willink]

This is what men do before they get arrested. Free whiskey.

[Scott Neal]

I don't think that far ahead. I'm in the moment. And it was fun because the wife came out and it's a little bar and she started pouring some things and you're of course sipping it. And she goes, ah, this is potato vodka. You're like, sure. Can I get another one of those? No, no, try potato flake vodka. Oh, I could taste. I can taste the difference. And. But one of the wives and co founder Elizabeth started looking at the bottle and talked to the wife about the label and the texture and the things on it. And then the husband came out and said, would you like to see the stills? And you go behind the rope and you see mechanical and engineering and what time do you show up to start this? So we literally got back to the Airbnb, checked out and had every craft distillery from. From West Yellowstone back to Tampa, Florida. Took us three weeks on a journey.

[Jocko Willink]

And no DUIs?

[Scott Neal]

No, no, no.

[Jocko Willink]

Because we would stop.

[Scott Neal]

We're mature. You know what I mean? We would. And we called up Mark and he said, hey, I got an SAS buddy that owns a distillery in Scotland. So we flew to Scotland, went to Whiskey University, went up, you know, Speyside.

[Jocko Willink]

Is Whiskey University a real thing or you just. There's a real thing.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. So we don't know these things. You don't know the culture, you just scratch your way into it. And so we took official classes on nosing and tasting the history of whiskey without the E, which is the English version. Right. And we go to see what tourism sees at a distillery. You kind of walk this velvet guided rope and then you go through the curio shop at the end and you buy three bottles, bottles for your buddies, you go to the next one. And then when we got to Thorso, the northernmost city in Scotland where the Vikings came, there's nothing to do but work at that distillery and go to the bar. Work at the distillery, go to the bar, Right. It's like oil dregs. And we learn how to turn them on. You know, the Scots are very efficient. There's no task left unmanaged with them. And we left, we came home, somebody said, what's the difference between whiskey in Scotland and Irish whiskey? So we said, screw it, let's go to Ireland, spend a month in Ireland, Teeling and Thorso or Kelbegan, and just would knock on the door and say, can we work here for a week? And so we came back, we went into Kentucky. Can I work at a warehouse on the weekend? We would just go and see a bunch of broke vets. Man, this is interesting. Can we just come? Just pick your brain. And everybody was open. And so we started forming a company called American Freedom Distillery. And my business partner, mentor, John Coco, previous generation Green Beret Agency, him and another buddy started an insurance company. Highly successful. Daddy Warbuck's successful. Right. And he understood business. So we formulated it and we started making a couple barrels. And that's when the movie hit. So we went up there, did the movie, came back from the movie. The next day we went to a charity event and the owners of ABC Liquor in Florida heard that we were somehow part of this movie. We heard that he owned liquor stores. And he said, I'll take 50 cases.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice. Now you had to go make 50 cases? Yes.

[Scott Neal]

Literally, we were legionnaire, went back there, filled up some Juggo bottles, printed off some labels, licked them on, drove them across state lines.

[Jocko Willink]

No, no, of course not.

[Scott Neal]

No. They arrived.

[Jocko Willink]

What's the statute of limitations on state lines?

[Scott Neal]

The mistakes. So, but we didn't know. So we just learned how to make it. Now you don't know the, you know what distribution is, what sales is. We didn't even have an invoice. You don't know any of this stuff. And that first year, you know, we were educated, we formed alliances, we formed partnerships. And today we're the fastest growing bourbon in the country. I'm building a 7 million gallon facility. It'll make a hundred thousand barrels a year which is a million cases, which is the size of Woodsford from a bunch of guys who knew nothing about anything.

[Jocko Willink]

And that's where you guys building that in Kentucky? Did you guys buy the land already?

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. So you start knowing when you go there's a to get started usually by somebody else's contract distilling. I have about 30,000 barrels aging right now and that's a whole separate business because four to six years to eight years has to age. And then I have my Horse Soldier bourbon as a brand which we did 150,000 cases last year. So there's. We realized that if we. If I bought a barrel from somebody else and I paid a thousand dollars, if I made it myself, I make for 500. I'm losing that profitability. So at what point in your business plan do you start to transition to think 25 years, 100 years out. If I can only integrate all of my production, manufacturing and then my sales side takes over once it's age appropriate. So we bought an old golf course in the smallest town in Kentucky away from all the big distilleries and Covid hit.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh.

[Scott Neal]

So what was a plan to build a distillery, a hotel, 5,000 person amphitheater. Because we like to think big. Game of Thrones, right. We don't think small. It would have cost us 150 to build. Then it got up to 450 million. And so we had to break apart the big idea into little chunks. And now the build is about halfway done. We've got the tanks in. We've got everything. We're going to open up the 4th of July 2026.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice.

[Scott Neal]

250Th anniversary of America America. American dream. Screw it. That's bad for amateurs. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on. Little deviation there. Rewind a little bit. Let's bring you back to the military.

[Scott Neal]

You're.

[Jocko Willink]

You get done. So you get done with that deployment. Yeah. What's your, what's your next, what's your next? Stay there at the same at fifth group.

[Scott Neal]

Oh yeah. Fifth group still.

[Jocko Willink]

Still in the sif.

[Scott Neal]

Still in the sif. Already heard rumblings getting ready for Iraq because we had always been in the 90s into Kuwait. We already knew certain elements had, you know, whether it was WMD or whether it was unconventional or regular warfare, strategic reconnaissance. Those ideas were probably just blown off the dust. And so by November team started getting ready and going into Jordan and Kuwait and positioning. By this, you know, early February, the missions were set and by the invasion teams were already going inside to whatever now.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, three.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. So you lead the invasion from multiple fronts. If you recall, it only took 90 days. Once again, from, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

And were you over there on the push up?

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice. And what were you guys doing?

[Scott Neal]

One mission still, you know, sensitive enough. Then that problem was solved and it became. You started picking up either ors. Either you were going to do the Jessica lynch mission, or another force was. Well, they got it there. We started because the war was just over within a flash. What. What do you do? You know what I mean? They. We were literally in Baghdad, going to the market, hanging out in shops, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And there was that weird checking on facilities. Yeah, there was that weird time where it was like there wasn't an insurgency. There wasn't. It was kind of peaceful. Like you said, you're going out in the market.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, it was quiet. Um, and we didn't understand because we had bypassed, you know, a lot of things in hindsight that hopefully we understand now, but we don't. You know, all these compounds where these munitions were that became the feeders and fuels, you know, all of these things we didn't secure. We were such a rush just to exist and occupy. And then from there, once you had the lack of structured governance, the people began to revert to stripping things. So government buildings, all these things. So you couldn't go back and reinsert government institutions because, you know, they were already degrading. So that lasted April, May, came back for two months. And then Djibouti. Djibouti. Djibouti.

[Jocko Willink]

And what was Djibouti like?

[Scott Neal]

Take your hand, caught the rim of the asshole. That's your booty right there. What we saw was this phenomena of foreign fighters. So if you think historically how people migrated for the Hajj, how they supplied other jihadi things throughout generation, there's this kind of out of, you know, theater, out of travel network of people coming across. And as things started devolving in Iraq, elements could fight them there. But how do you pick them apart before they get there? Understand the networks that are facilitating them. So the mission was basically Djibouti was the last long landmass before Yemen. So did we have a presence there and could we understand the networks? It was all more deep reconnaissance, small network disbanding, you know, understand the flow of pattern.

[Jocko Willink]

And then you went back to Iraq again A couple times.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. Okay, two times. So that was end of O3 early 04 was Djibouti had a great time. Different now. Chaos reigned. And they, they decided to break the company apart and put the company down south in a traditional sf, you know, regional orientation. And we had escanaria to Alcott, to Karbala, Najaf, the whole southern region. And probably starting In July of 04.

[Jocko Willink]

July of 04. Okay, and. And then what was that? What was the op tempo like for that?

[Scott Neal]

Every other night, I think I did 90 complete hits and missions. And.

[Jocko Willink]

And did you have a partner force.

[Scott Neal]

Or just, you guys, mixtures? Okay, so if we, if it was something small, local, right, we had either hill SWAT or you had the Swanees. It depend on what florida fluff. The 36 commandos were just getting started. ICTF was just getting started. And if, if as battles were progressing, whether it was Fallujah or Alcott on the west side, right, the Iranians coming over, then you would assemble. We would bring a more dedicated element for the precision of the problem. Or if you just need nugs and thugs, you know, you'd bring, you know, some local militia in with you, right. Just to keep the peace and keep people out of your way and do your thing. So, I mean, every third day was, you know, is this a bomber and we know the neighborhood, or is this, you know, people creeping across the Iran and we're seeing a lot of personalities pop up and then it just unleashed in Al Qut.

[Jocko Willink]

And you say you were formulated like a. Or you were structured like a normal ODA at this point?

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, so we went back to 12 man teams in, you know, regional locations, assisting the. The fun term, the battlefield. You know, why did they, why did.

[Jocko Willink]

They do that to the sif?

[Scott Neal]

I think by then the national elements were so dedicated and they were building their empire of capabilities.

[Jocko Willink]

So they're putting you guys out of a job. Yeah, well, we're just moving you to the other job.

[Scott Neal]

Other job, back to, you know, but we would then come together when necessary. So the elements down south. So you had, once again, some major battles. Najaf was happening at the time, the cemetery battles. They did the sos, counter chats and doing things. You had the Iranian streaming across Al Qut area. You had, you know, Fallujah just igniting.

[Jocko Willink]

What was your, what was your role in the. In the ODA at this point?

[Scott Neal]

I'm back to Team Sergeant awesome and then Troop Sergeant Major. So when we assemble, like the Wonder Twins, you know what I mean? You call up the banner and you say, all right, you know, let's Meet somewhere. Let's either bring ourselves, you know, unilateral, let's bring a hello swat, or let's bring a Marine. The Marines want to go in somewhere. So, okay, let's do the Death Star as I like to call it, and bring in a big package and take over a whole kind of non compliant village.

[Jocko Willink]

Was there any major challenges during that, during that deployment?

[Scott Neal]

Coordination, cooperation? The challenge as I look backwards is I didn't know where we're going until a week before we got there. So now you're blind. How do you set up assets and work networks and do things? You. We were on the tear lines. We were having that discussion, you know what I mean? The, the cracks. So we were on the crack by southern Baghdad, you know, going south. And that's, you know, where people were squirting. They were conducting activity in one area and they were squirting back for rest and relaxation in another. And these elements, because the action activities, they would all storm and put bases and you know, think that's where the fight. But really the people organizing that and coordinating it were, you know, coming back and back in these remoter locations, suburbs, per effect. So when we started to unscratch that and uncover that, it awoke in a whole nother area. So it's never once again where everybody wants you to focus. The problem area. It's where we're humans too. We go back and reflect, reset and refight, reorganize, recommunicate, refund each other. And we started peeling apart those networks so they couldn't relax.

[Jocko Willink]

And how long was that deployment? Were you guys on a seven month? A seven month?

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Was that standard for you guys?

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. Because that's. I know some other elements were doing four month deployments. The SEALs, we've always kind of done what the Marine Corps does, which is be aligned with the big Navy, which is basically a six or seven month deployment. So it sounds like you guys did the same. Yeah, same thing.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so you get home from that deployment, are you still a single dude at this point?

[Scott Neal]

I've, I've been lucky in love many times, right? No, I think it was my fourth divorce by then.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, so you've been racking and stacking.

[Scott Neal]

I, I enjoyed being gone a lot. Right. I've been married to my wife now since, you know, 17, 18, 20 years. So it also takes the right type of person when you say I'm here and then, you know, a month later and then you're gone. The hard part is just getting your relationships back with your kids?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Do you come home from that deployment and then it's just reload for another one.

[Scott Neal]

So in between those times, I ran the Advanced Urban Combat School. So now you've got other teams. So you, you get into the training cycle of getting them ready and then, you know, things are really starting to downturn. So if you think about, you know, Ramadi, we had lost some guys in Ramadi in 04, pretty hard. And they were, some guys were trained, you know, really good and went to the schoolhouse for direct action. They tried to give it to their ODA and they were caught in a circumstance, right. So we realized that if some of these guys are going to fight in this urban environment, they, they needed to advance their skill set. How to maneuver, how to climb walls, how to be repetitious, entry versus explosive, all these things. So we really brought our skill set to the other ODAs. And then I went back for another four to five months into Baghdad. So, so now I'm off the team. I'd been there too long, I'm at the schoolhouse running that. But then the command says, hey, come in and support us with the ICTF and commandos and help professionalize their, you know, training pipeline, their acquisition pipeline. So now you're making a force not for convenience and partnership, but you're making something sustainable. So I went and helped out with that.

[Jocko Willink]

And what year did you go help out with the ictf?

[Scott Neal]

Five.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. Because I, I was supposed to. When I was a troop commander, task unit commander, I was supposed to go and take over this for the seals, because it was both, they had both seals and Green Berets with the ICTF in Baghdad. And so they were all working together and then I was supposed to go and take over the seals that were there. And I went on pre deployment site survey. But this was in early 06, probably like March of 06. Went there, met with the ICTF, went on some ops with them and then was all ready to do the turnover and then we came home and then they sent us to Ramadi instead, which was awesome. But that was my interaction with the ictf. And the ICTF was a squared away unit, definitely for Iraqis, a squared away unit. But it was interesting because they had like our weapons, they had night vision, like minimis. Yeah, they were, they were. And, and I'm sure you've heard this, but the guys that the ICTF that went up and fought in Missoul took massive casualties, but they were also brave and they fought really hard and they fought with a lot of Courage, which was a real testament to what all those Green berets and seals did to, and what you guys did to put that force together and give him a culture of courage and commitment that you know, we didn't see a lot from other units in, in the Iraqi military. So that was a real testament to that, that idea of making a long standing group. And it's unfortunate that they did suffer such heavy casualties.

[Scott Neal]

Well, they did. You know, once again, I think we, we build them and there for a while you couldn't do the mission unless you had a partner force. So people kind of, you know, hey, look at these four. Is that enough to get the. Yes. And then you try to build them as a competent leadership, but then you still tickle the close air support in the intel. You know, they're not ready to be self sustaining yet. And the first time probably was they're planning their own missions. You want them to go, maybe we'll advise to the side. And then, you know, that's what messed that up. You know what I mean? We've lost all those lessons even to this day. You know, how do we recount what worked, what didn't, what will we do better? And you know, now it's gone.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. What do you do when you get done with that?

[Scott Neal]

So I'm off the team now. I'm a senior E8. Typically if you're getting ready to go for a company start major, they send you to Sart Major academy for a year. I didn't want to go. I'm a little out of, you know, we're talking seven months since 9, 11. You're in constant combat. And this opportunity came up to go to Tampa and I'm from Florida. Anyways, okay. So I get assigned to the headquarters. So imagine going from the lowest tactical on the edge level. A major was important, colonel was invisible, but the God. Now you walk into a four star headquarters and there were only 17 soft NCOs in the entire headquarters. Wow. They didn't know what to do with us. You had kind of had to find your own place.

[Jocko Willink]

So I did not know that. How many people are at that command? Thousand thousands.

[Scott Neal]

All retired. You know, zero fives, zero sixes and you know, four star two, three stars. Four, you know, two stars you just go down like the Richter scale. Just crazy comes down. So there was an individual I was introduced to. I'll tell you two funny stories. One was a guy named Ed Winners and he had just left team six and he came to Tampa and they started this task force called the Interagency task force. Right. So by then you start to see what JSOC was doing with their capabilities and all of the reservoir dog colors sitting in one place sharing the problems of the mission. Right. So they tried to recreate that. So Ed was the first one. So we began to take people funding capabilities and throw them in a dog pile and see how we could support elements forward or support, you know, us had a problem at the time, we could encounter anybody on the battlefield and win. But why couldn't we as a country use hold of a nation and share and support information and degrade networks before they even got on the battlefield? And so that was the big idea. And so that became the genesis of the interagency task force.

[Jocko Willink]

And how long did you do that job for?

[Scott Neal]

2010. So six to ten, four years. So winners. And then Scotty Miller came. That's where we became friends. And then had an Air Force Bob Holmes and then Frankie Schroyer who left the dea.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Scott Neal]

So I was a list advisor. So people would plug in and out and we began to have separate cells. And that's where I met Jim. Right. We had a foreign fighter cell, we had nefarious network cell, we had defense or counter finance. And you started picking apart these problems because there was nobody else really unified.

[Jocko Willink]

To looking at, looking at them from that holistic viewpoint. And then after that did you retire after that?

[Scott Neal]

I did.

[Jocko Willink]

And how much that decision?

[Scott Neal]

It was time. Right. So here I am, I'm working for a three star equivalent. I'm an E8. Half the time I'm in a suit walking around. Because as soon as you put on a uniform, people judge you, especially if you're at a lower rank. And my family came. It's the first time they read you off the rolls and say what you did. And then the next day I was nobody. So like most people I worked, somebody approached me and they had a contract. Supporting at the time was McChrystal overseas. And that was evaluating how Afghanistan was going 10 years into it. So I spent about another nine months in Afghanistan walking the battlefield like a ronin. I could go to any meeting, get on any helicopter, walk any foot patrol just to assess why.

[Jocko Willink]

And I think you came up with an interesting assessment. The viewpoint that you took of this was interesting.

[Scott Neal]

Yes. I got to speak, you know, with old tribal commanders, people on the ground. You know, their question is, why are we still here? I thought, you know, in the beginning you said you would come, you would avenge. We can understand that now. Turn over the country and Afghan will become Afghanistan. And as I would walk the battlefield, I would go on a patrol and I watch some kids get blown up and watch the medics didn't even know how to apply morphine. You just start seeing these things. You're confused on why we're still here. And you start going into these jock centers and watching young commanders make decisions and watching people run out of ammo in the first 30 seconds. And you're like, you know, why haven't we evolved? People have transitioned. They show up to the new same location that an American has been at for 10 years, but not know any people or anything. It was just. I didn't understand it. So as I started to. To assess myself and what was going on, at the end, I printed this presentation. It was very basic, and it was just a US Soldier and an Afghan soldier, and it was the cost on one side or the other. How much does it cost us to fill the soldier? How much does it cost to Taliban? So it was an economic assessment. And the American soldier, 1.3 million. You know, education, high school equipment, whatnot. Taliban soldier, Rusty AK, $7. And I just went down the pipeline from vehicles to a Toyota Hilux, you know, a million and a half dollar mrap versus and at the end, you know, we're in this battle because we can sustain it economically, but yet these people who don't have economic, technological, advanced educations, all this other stuff, truly have control of the country. So we need to reassess what we're doing here.

[Jocko Willink]

Did this make it anywhere?

[Scott Neal]

I presented it and I quit government. They vowed never to be a government contractor, to do anything again.

[Jocko Willink]

Did it get received at all? Did anyone nod their head and say, well, they did.

[Scott Neal]

I mean, I had the senior relationships at the end to go, where is this going? And I mean, it was. It was presented at the intellectual level, right? It wasn't like you would do an assessment of a unit after an exercise and, you know, you should make four decisions better and you should, you know, incorporate this technology better. It wasn't that. It was just intellectually, how. How are we still here and have we achieved? Because being there the first time was to root out Al Qaeda, unseat the Taliban from power, which was allowing them to facilitate training and planning in Afghanistan to 10 years later. We've applied, you know, all of these things. We've backed away from some of the simple realities of Afghanistan. Probably needs 200 years in the oven. And their solution is something they have to create for themselves and manage and fight the way they're going to fight. So if we're training them to look like us, think like us, use our tools and act like us, as soon as we take that out, it reverts back.

[Jocko Willink]

So, so when you, you say you quit government employment at that time, like it was, was this a, a huge kind of epiphany moment in your life?

[Scott Neal]

We were. So how the next phase happened is I was on the board of the Green Beret foundation and trying to help them raise money. And we were having, you know, our storytelling problem. Right. The seals are very good. They have great post SEAL people that'll go out and encourage people, you know, to raise money for, do events for whatever. Special Forces are like mountain men. You know, we're huff and we're quiet, and we don't want to talk about anything. And so we were seeing more guys getting injured as government contractors, because if you get injured or shot or blown up, your treatment and your evacuation is completely different. So these guys were now.

[Jocko Willink]

So you're saying as the Green Beret foundation, you were, you were helping more guys that had been wounded as contractors than you were guys that were getting.

[Scott Neal]

Wounded as greenhouse had enough problems with guys on active duty, right? And we were finding the cracks, like in vitro fertilization. Guys were wanting to store some, and if they lost something, they could, you know, still create families, hyperbaric oxygen chambers. All the stuff that VA wasn't ready for or alternative physical therapies. Anything you wanted encouraging had to pay for it. Outside of any normal VA or medical system, we had guys shot through the neck wanted nasal stem cell surgery so it could rekindle atropy from the inside. He's still alive today. Romy Camargo BUSINESS owner, QUADRIPLEGIC So all of a sudden you're getting calls that the guy you talked to a month ago was sergeant major or something. Now is Mr. And he got, you know, a contract with somebody and then got shot. And now, you know, he doesn't have the funds and he's let go by the business and he's trying to get some medical care. So workman comps claim.

[Jocko Willink]

So you're, you're doing that. And this was after you finished that commander's advisory and assistance team. This is when you go to the Green Beret foundation and you're in and you're out there raising money, seeing all the problems that guys are facing.

[Scott Neal]

So as you're raising money, you see, you know, men and women that are the corporate pillars that become successful, successful entrepreneurs. So you start to get to know Them as you develop relationships. So green Beret Skill 101, right? Get to know them, you know, help them with your problem, and they become generous. But I become fascinated on how they grew their wealth and took advantage of the American dream. And the word entrepreneurism, you know, was an idea theory. And so I created a program called the Next Ridgeline. So metaphorically, how I'm getting from here over there, through the valleys and the draws and the hollers, and if we can only. You remember the Rambo movie at the end, when you're a kid, Rambo was about the knife, you know what I mean? The. The running and evading and standing up to Johnny Law. But at the end, he's crying, saying, I can't even get a job and fly helicopters and pumping gas.

[Jocko Willink]

I can't even get a job pumping gas. Echo. You have to run a quote right now. Is that what we're doing?

[Echo Charles]

You're talking about first blood?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, he's talking about first blood.

[Scott Neal]

So now you're older, you're like, well, how can we be this highly trained and skilled? And then the only job you walk into immediately is back into combat. But you don't realize you don't have the support you had. Why aren't we enabling this generation to become entrepreneurs? So I created the program, we put in some money, and on the stage, we're New York City. And I had Roger Ailes, the head of Fox at the time, give the richest guy in the room an award. He'll bring his rich buddies, non profit 101. And on the mic on, I literally dropped the microphone. I said, I quit. And if I can't walk off the stage and follow this program and start a business with friends, you all deserve your money back.

[Jocko Willink]

And you do that on stage.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. And that's when we went to Yellowstone to figure out what we're going to do next.

[Jocko Willink]

And that was the beginning.

[Scott Neal]

That was the beginning.

[Jocko Willink]

How long did it take to go from. You know, when you're like, did you have an idea of I want to start a business? It was just a business. It could have been sneakers, it could have been hats.

[Scott Neal]

Oh, I did it. I did. Operator with backpacks and T shirts and everything you see at the shot show and your five friends, you're like, hey, everybody else has got a backpack. I just came up with this. Hold on a second. And I said, all right. So I talked to my friend who's my business partner now, Coco and I.

[Jocko Willink]

Coco was a Green Beret and. But he's. Is he Older than us.

[Scott Neal]

Yes. He was blown up in the first Gulf War. Okay, I'm alive. Date is coming up.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it.

[Scott Neal]

Bug it out, and we'll go somewhere.

[Jocko Willink]

Dark and probably drink some. Some horse. Some horse soldiers.

[Scott Neal]

Don't say it too fast.

[Jocko Willink]

Believe me, I know.

[Scott Neal]

I get that all the time. But he. Him and another buddy started very successful insurance business. Went public, back down to private. Sold it for a lot. Started buying Blue Cross Blue Shield franchises before Obamacare hit. I mean, the epitome of self made.

[Jocko Willink]

Nicely done.

[Scott Neal]

So I asked him, I said, john, I got these little companies, these ideas. I'm making five bucks here and 100 bucks.

[Jocko Willink]

And these were backpacks and. And freaking slings and whatever else.

[Scott Neal]

Yep, the same. And he goes, what's the margin on that? I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, what are you doing? What's the. What's the island. What's. What's the access to capital you got right now? He started saying these foreign words. I'm like, hey, hey, you. He goes, no, no, no wasting your time. You have 12 hours in the daytime. Those things you do. I'm gonna. I'll talk to you about. Define the thing that'll make the most value for the time and energy and effort you're gonna put into it. And I said, you're a smart guy, you and me. And he said, as soon as I get back from Yellowstone. So when he was injured there. Back then, there was no ptsd, right? There was no survivor's guilt. There was no things going on. But there was a little program called Project Healing Waters, and it was started by the Walton family. So the Walton son was actually a Silver Star. Vietnam.

[Jocko Willink]

John Walton.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. He was a SOG guy in Vietnam. He was with. I mean, there's. He's in a bunch of those books. He's a total stud. Yeah.

[Scott Neal]

So he started a program, and John went through it, and every year afterwards, he and his family went to Yellowstone. And he told me, as soon as I get back from Yellowstone, you and I will evaluate your businesses. We'll talk about, you know, is this making money? How. How we can help this? And I said, well, sure. Where are you going? Said yellowstone. I said, well, I never been. I realized I'd never taken a vacation of substance in 20 years. So he goes, well, why don't you come? And I told him, well, I'm unemployed, so might as well. And we fly, fished and climbed the Tetons and horseback ride and.

[Jocko Willink]

And did any time you. Did you guys talk about bourbon at that time or just talking about just life?

[Scott Neal]

No. You want to know the great brilliant answer? His wife, Elizabeth, who was Snow White, beautiful, perfect Snow White on horseback with us guys, she's trooper. And the first night, she starts putting on essential oils and rubbing herself down with lotion. You're smelling by the campfire, like. And the guy's like, what is that? What's going on? Who's got something? Who's got load? What's the bears? He's like, give me all of that. So $10,000 of creams and night creams and stuff. You know, he. Rice is out in the night, and he puts it up in the bear bag. And of course, we're giggling, right? We're like, welcome to manhood. And she goes, you men need a line of rugged essential oils. You know what I mean? She's like, you. And so we talked about.

[Jocko Willink]

Could be talking about horse soldier lotions right now.

[Scott Neal]

So you never know. So you're on a horse, you know, you're just thinking about yourself because you can't talk to anybody. And then you get around the campfire at night, and you just be quiet and silent with each other, and you talk about some things could we do. And it wasn't until freaking frack, me and Coco saw that sign that said free drinks because we're brothers and we like to have fun. And we just looked over and saw Elizabeth just talking to the wife about the labels. She was in the perfume industry, so she knew packaging and labels. And that's literally started then. Then when we got back to Tampa, Coco's parents came over, and we just talked more about those distillery visits. And Coco's dad said, you drunks need a hobby and just started unwinding the mysteries of how to make great bourbon.

[Jocko Willink]

What was the first big step that you took? Because, you know, when you're putting. When you're all chipping in, I don't know, 200 bucks to get the first barrel done or whatever. And that's all just fun. And we're. At what point did you go, oh, this is a little bit of a commitment right now?

[Scott Neal]

When you put in a million and.

[Jocko Willink]

A half and is that money that you guys raised, is that okay?

[Scott Neal]

Right? You start understanding, you know, the depth of things. You have to put structure around the idea into a business plan, which we still follow today. And then when we signed our first distributor agreement and says you have to produce and you have to deliver, and it takes 45 days before you get paid, you start to calculate timing a little differently. Then you got quality assurance because you got to consume products so things get serious quicker and you need more help. So do you hire people that know the business or do you hire your buddy? So then you hire a buddy and then there's a learning curve. You figure it out. You meet every day, twice a day. Then you take in another million of somebody else's money. So now you've expanded the circle. So going from startup to first money in friends and family to outside money or first million million. Then we went into 3 million. Then we went into a family office for 12 and a half with a 20 million dollar debt instrument. You know what I mean? You can't pretend anymore. You have to, you know, deliver expectations not only for yourself, your family, but bored outside investors. And so now you're in a competitive mindset, which is exactly where we thrive. Knowledge dominance. If you know more than me, I'm going to seek it.

[Jocko Willink]

So the growth has been. So we're. So where's it at right now?

[Scott Neal]

Where we're at right now? We partnered with the Gallo family. So we were at a point where our brand was, people were seated on the shelves, which means public companies are starting to see you. They, they're so big they can't innovate anymore. Right. They can't build, build that enthusiasm and exploratory. They can't hip enough so they just acquire. So you started seeing George Clooney sell for a billion and a half. You started seeing High west, these monetary purchases by public companies, but almost all of them are foreign. So when we had Campari and Beam, Centauri, all these people were like, nah, we're American. And so that left a few. And so we started putting together which this was Coco's Realm was how to build yourself. And we didn't want to sell outright because if we sold outright, you're surrendering the true value of what we could be. But it was ours. And so we went through 30 dating exercises, narrowed it down to 10 exercises, narrowed it down to five. And then can you align culturally? Because once you get into a business partnership, you can't divorce.

[Jocko Willink]

And one of the companies, some of the companies looking at you. Not alcohol companies.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, like hedge funds that have spirits portfolios. These others, you know, it's just a thing in their menu, right. Their, their, their committee is told to buy into these certain areas. So when you talk to them, you get it right away. They don't bring value. So if you look at a business as marriage, I don't need the money as much as your Access to markets, your distribution, these Mafia, I say that word, your family, My family. We get together, we bring capabilities together. So as we went through that at the final five, last one, John, he only has one litmus test. When he meets him, he shakes her hand and goes, give me your cell number. Because if I can't call you at 2 in the morning because I'm having a problem, then I'm dealing with a committee or a financial team or somebody, you know, I don't want that. I want a partnership. And two balked and hesitated. Finally made our decision. And that was with the Gallo family and the Gallo family. You know, same rags to riches, immigrant family, build an empire. And they started getting into the spirit space. They own High Noon and a bunch of other spirits, brands. So he knew he had to diversify. And they said, it's your business. How do we help? And so now we're, you know, two restaurants going on three, A hotel.

[Jocko Willink]

Where are the restaurants?

[Scott Neal]

One's in Tampa. So the urban still house beautiful. It's so high class, high end. People think you're vets and they think beer pong, ping pong. I'm like, no, no, no one in.

[Jocko Willink]

Somerset, Kentucky, there's no beer pong there.

[Scott Neal]

No, no. We've got bison. We break down the barrels for wood fire grills. We got fresh caught fish. It's beautiful. And then the one in Kentucky, we opened before the facility and we just bought a building in the stockyards in Fort Worth.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, awesome.

[Scott Neal]

So we've partnered with pbr.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice.

[Scott Neal]

So. So we've built this brand and it's basically origin stories. Friends that served together, came home, started a business, you know, made something, you know, we're, we're positioned right. So if you think now with Yellowstone and all this other, you know what I mean, cowboy culture and other stuff, we've kind of hit the right timing to remind what an all American company with all American products is about. So either we've been dead lucky or cleverly smart or a little bit of both.

[Jocko Willink]

We'll take it. Yes. Awesome, man. And then you got one little last little thing. You got these adventures that you guys seem to go on. It's like I look at your YouTube channel, you're doing D day jumps, you're doing sailing rate explorations, diving in Saipan. Like, what's that all about?

[Scott Neal]

So you can't take what has been the embers of your life of service. Right. And take it out. So every year we always say we've got to do something together as friends. And family. So it started. Coco gave us the money because the money he was going to use was to buy a sailboat. And he wanted. Had a fantasy sailing for life. So one day somebody had some sailing lessons, so we decided to take them. And they were part of the Warrior Selling Foundation. Somebody had gifted them a $6 million kind of race yacht. And then they opened up Cuba. So they had a regatta from St. Pete, Florida to Cuba. And we said, why don't we enter? That literally took two selling lessons and we got second place.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn. Okay.

[Scott Neal]

And so we don't like to lose.

[Jocko Willink]

Green Beret sabotage activities going on.

[Scott Neal]

Exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

Then we.

[Scott Neal]

Then we hung out in Cuba for a week and had fun. So then the next year, they had US regatta from St Pete to Islam Mujeres, which is near Cancun. And so we talked to the same Warrior Sailing. Somebody had donated a carbon fiber race yacht. And we were crushing everybody's soul until we didn't release and basically almost crashed. It blew out to Spinnaker, still limped in, got second and decided, let's not do that.

[Jocko Willink]

Strong second.

[Scott Neal]

And then a former teammate who was still doing government work in Germany said, hey, I just visited Normandy. Like, oh, I haven't been to normally. Let's go. And so you start hearing that they have reenactments and they have events you can go to. So you start hitting the network, and they're like, yeah, you know, they have airborne jumps in there. We're like, oh, can we get tickets to go see it? They're like, I don't know. Who are you guys again? And we told him who we were. He goes, would you guys like to jump into it?

[Jocko Willink]

Hell, yeah.

[Scott Neal]

So went back, got airborne, Round canopy certified. Coco, on his jump, broke. Broke both of his ankles.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, dang.

[Scott Neal]

And how.

[Jocko Willink]

Just hit hard, landed hard.

[Scott Neal]

He landed on the Runway. You know those little lights that come up a few feet? Feet. You're trying to, like, lift your leg a little bit.

[Jocko Willink]

Just.

[Scott Neal]

It was pathetic. And so we jumped in. My son jumped with me, and a week later, he went to Afghanistan for a year. So it turned into this.

[Jocko Willink]

Kids in the Army.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah. He was in the 82nd.

[Jocko Willink]

Awesome.

[Scott Neal]

So this year was the 80th anniversary, so we had 10 congressmen. The Senator Crenshaw jumped right isa Mike Waltz. You know, we created this. Every year we're going to go back to Normandy because, you know, how do you pass the baton from one generation to the next through the eyes of your grandkids? So they need to see, you know, you on the Battlefield, you know, sharing something that, you know, shouldn't be in a VFW hall or over a drink. You know, we thought it was important for the kids, the Saipan issue. I have a very good friend, Mark, who's head of Task Force Dagger foundation, started doing recovery missions. So you can go into Vietnam, you can dive again. You can. You know, we're the only country that puts resources against recovering lost. And so we went back to special forces scuba school, old guy, Red Bull, right. Dove got certified, went to archaeological dive school, learned how to put the brackets down, down, and, you know, the vacuum do everything. And then we went to Saipan and spent three weeks on a couple downed Hellcat sites to recover what you can.

[Jocko Willink]

Very cool. Very cool. So you got the distillery Common. What else? Any what? Anything else.

[Scott Neal]

What's the next BIG Project America 250th anniversary. So right on, I had the honor of speaking at the rnc talking about.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I saw that.

[Scott Neal]

You know, passing once again the baton. You know, let's always question ourselves. Are we doing the right thing when it came to withdrawal of Afghanistan and how do we make small town America important on the 250th? So right now, the entire country is planning for Philadelphia, Boston, New York City, D.C. so when I talk to my friends, the administration, I'm like, where? Where's the conversation about small town America? A parade with jeeps, you know, the Boy Scouts with flags. So I've been weaseling my way because President Trump started a commission on the 250th anniversary, and I've been Don Quixote yelling that this, it's not a celebration unless all of America talks about what it means to have a fourth of July parade in small town America.

[Jocko Willink]

Freaking outstanding.

[Scott Neal]

So that's where I'm putting some of my energy into.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on. Awesome, man. Sounds like that gets us up to speed so people can find you. So you guys are on the interwebs.

[Scott Neal]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Horsesoldier. Bourbon.com.

[Scott Neal]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

You got Instagram, Horse Soldier Bourbon D. Twitter X is Horse Soldier USA. You got YouTube and Facebook, which is also both. Those are Horse Soldier Bourbon. And then for you, if I got this right, it's your Scott Neal. And you're at af, which is American Freedom AF Distillery. And that's on Instagram.

[Scott Neal]

No, mine is Whiskey and War Stories Instagram.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's at Whiskey and War Stories.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, got it. We suck. It's not in our nature. Our kids yell at us all the time because, you know, we. We let them post and do Things we probably need to get better at broadcasting. Like I say, I come from the, you know, don't talk about fight club story. So we get into these discussions and we need to come out.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's good too. You know, that's one of the things about this podcast is, you know, I've had guys on a decent number of guys that have come on and talked their story, whether it was World War II, Korea, Vietnam, and they died afterwards. And, you know, I've had the families been so moved and so thankful because, you know, these are guys, Vietnam guys or, or World War II or Korean guys that, you know, they, they didn't, you know, they. Sure, maybe they talked about it with their friends when they were in the bar, whatever, but they weren't telling their kids.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, I even, I even look like my youngest daughter's 15 years old. She, I retired in 2010. Right. She doesn't, she doesn't remember me as a, as a military guy. You know, she doesn't know anything about. She doesn't remember me going on deployment. None of that. She doesn't, she doesn't. It just doesn't exist for her. So, like, it's not like I, and like I sit around the dinner table and say, let me tell you about this one time in Baghdad, you know.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, do that.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, they're not going to hear that from me. And that's the same way it was for a lot of these, these older guys that I've had on that have told their story and, man, their, their kids and their grandkids are just so happy that we were able to capture it. And on top of that, you know, military, I mean, all the younger generation of military guys, like, they're going to take lessons learned from, even just from what you talked about about today, just the simple lessons learned of, hey, you know, maybe when this person who might not see combat for 10 years or 12 years or 15 years inside the army or the Marine Corps, here's you talking about, oh, my gosh, you know, when first target assault and there was a kid in there and we didn't know what to do.

[Scott Neal]

Yep. How do you pass on Legacy. Right. And we grew up 30,000 years ago by the fire, you know, painting on the cave. And I think we've gotten little bit out of small community, small family conversations, you know, about what made you. So now as I research my grandpa, my great, great, great uncle and the Alamo, all these things you wish you could have a conversation or hear them. So that's why Some of these adventures are always family adventures. So as we get together and talk as uncles, you know what I mean, the kids get to hear. And now we've got grandkids. And, you know, you have to share at the end, too, though. I don't want to give my kids a. A Foot Locker full of dirty boots and war medals and then try to recreate who I was. So trying to be present now as a dad and granddad, you got to give priority too.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, no doubt about it. Awesome Echo. Charles, you got any questions?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I have a few questions.

[Jocko Willink]

We got the bourbon expert over here, so.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, so just for. For clarification, I used to work in the bar industry, so I know a little bit, but. So first question is from.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you just roll out the fact that you were a bouncer as your qualification? Well, I'm not questioning.

[Echo Charles]

And bar back, by the way.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. Blame my last. I stand corrected.

[Echo Charles]

And manager in training, so. And that counts too. So I know about invoices, inventories.

[Scott Neal]

Get ready. Go ahead.

[Echo Charles]

So whiskey, right? It's all whiskey. Scotch, bourbon. It's all whiskey.

[Scott Neal]

So whiskey is a category. Is like saying special operations, right? So whiskey, you have vodka, you have rum as a category. Gin as a category. Whiskey, Tequila, too, by the way. Tequila.

[Jocko Willink]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Whiskey is above vodka.

[Scott Neal]

Tequila.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, got it.

[Scott Neal]

Parallel. So it's a category, right? And then there's subsets underneath it, like tequila. There's a name, and there's. In whiskey, there's scotch, which comes from Scotland, can't come from Ireland, but it can be single malt, right? You have Irish whiskey, which can be multigrain, or a single malted barley. Japanese whiskey, which comes from Japan, but it can be a multigrain or a single malt. American whiskey is usually in two categories. One is bourbon and one is straight whiskey. Jack Daniels is a whiskey. It's not a bourbon. Why? Because bourbon, as enacted by Congress in 1964, is the distinct product of the United States of America.

[Jocko Willink]

Boom.

[Scott Neal]

So it has criteria that make it. If you don't follow those, you can't call it a bourbon.

[Echo Charles]

Isn't it because it's made in Bourbon County 0.0?

[Scott Neal]

No, it's a product in the United States of America. Kentucky. 95% of the Bourbons there, and they. They like to be known for it, but by the law, it can be made in all 50 states.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, right on.

[Scott Neal]

See?

[Echo Charles]

Learn something new every day. Okay, so when you said. Because you started this stuff, straight up, white belt, from scratch.

[Scott Neal]

Y.

[Echo Charles]

All in the Field, essentially. Then you get. Then you went to some classes and stuff like that. How long would you.

[Jocko Willink]

The classes that you went to, they were like kind of a tourist type thing. Like, I'm a curious tourist. I want to spend two days at this festival factory. They're going to show me how.

[Scott Neal]

Then we found another marine who was actually in the Ramadi same time as you, Travis Barnes. He has a distillery called Hotel Tango. One of our investors invested in that. Said, why don't you go see Travis and Hotel Tango, he's in Indianapolis. And he said, here we go.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on.

[Scott Neal]

Get that sack, turn that lever. You know what I mean?

[Jocko Willink]

What'd you say his name was?

[Scott Neal]

Travis Barnes.

[Jocko Willink]

Travis Barnes. I'll have to find Travis Barnes.

[Scott Neal]

Awesome, Great American. He taught us a lot. It's same thing. He just started with a buddy and you know, poof, there you go. But we're a little bigger now.

[Jocko Willink]

What's his called?

[Scott Neal]

What's that?

[Jocko Willink]

What's his bourbon called?

[Scott Neal]

Crap. I see right in my head. Wait for it to drop here. Hotel Tango. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, cool, cool.

[Echo Charles]

But those touristy classes, I feel like those count as part of the education process.

[Scott Neal]

They, they take you into the theory on how to taste it. So if you look at a lot of these podcasts and YouTubers, they're just drinkers and consumers as they wat tire about the essence of nutmeg and you know, like a cooking show person. And then you go into Kentucky or somebody that makes it, they're missing fingers, you know what I mean? They're making the donuts. So we got to get with some of the most well known bourbon personalities. But it's never the personality making it. It's the guy that shows up at 6:30 in the morning. It's the warehouseman that's been there for 30 years and can tell you about, you know, seventh floor versus fourth floor, about how ethanol bleeds and is lowers and hovers. That's who we spent time with down in the bowels of the shop.

[Jocko Willink]

Warehouse guy in the bourbon world is actually dealing with the product and the manufacturing.

[Scott Neal]

So you make it right. So grains. So let's start here. It took 80 years to grow that tree, right? It took seven months to grow the grains, the corn, the barley, the winter wheat, or the rye. Then you truck it into one location, you make, you blend it all together, you heat it up to a certain level, and that's called a mash. And then you put it into a fermenter, and after 96 hours, it turns into probably 8% alcohol. Now, the snipers are going to listen to this and, you know, try to cut me with precision. But for general sake, if I stop there, it's beer.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay?

[Scott Neal]

When I go to put it back into a copper still, and I start to boil it, alcohol boils at 177 degrees, whereas water boils above that. So the vapors start to come up, and when it touches copper, it falls back down. So it starts releasing some fatty esters and other stuff. So it gets lighter and lighter and lighter. And as I that transfers over, you introduce cold water on the other side that turns that vapor into a liquid, and it comes out clear. And it's called moonshine.

[Echo Charles]

And that's pure alcohol.

[Scott Neal]

To be a whiskey, you can't proof it higher than 160, whereas vodka is 192, because you still subatomically, chemically, you have esters and oils that give it the mouthfeel and the taste of a whiskey. So you want to capture it at a certain proof, then it's clear. Now, here's where Mother Nature and Father Time, when you put it in a brand new American white oak barrel that's been charred so it's burned on the inside. You have carbon, you have the release of vanillins, tannins, everything else. Time, it has to sit in a barrel. And it starts to change as pressures, environmental pressures, day in, day out, bring it in and out of the fibers of the porous American white oak. It starts to pick up vanillins and flavors, and it releases the hard, harsh things that make you go blind. And it changes into something sippable. So you can't microwave bourbon. It has to age.

[Echo Charles]

So even you say the things that make you go blind. That's not like an expression, like at a certain point, if you drink the wrong alcohol.

[Scott Neal]

So when you have a new young batch, you know, they put it in a Glencairn glass and you look at the color, you kind of get a nose and you start to smell. And then you put it up to your eyeball and you can tell if it burns or not, right? Because it affects your ocular nerves. And when you say going blind, it's because they didn't cut the right heads and tails. The way you. You just don't take it all as it comes out. The first set that starts flowing out is. Has all the bad stuff and people that are nefarious, they capture it all and sell it to a consumer. That's why people are dying over in Mexico and everywhere, because one fourth of your product, you trash or you throw back in called sour mash.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that. That's so like I know this because I looked into distilling, right? Not brewing, distilling my own vodka and not, hey, look, was I gonna do it? Maybe, maybe not. This is back in the day. So I looked into the process and in the. Through that, the beginning of the learning process. This is back in the day.

[Scott Neal]

You are crazy here.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I learned that.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So it's kind of like, hey, if you don't. Basically what I took from that is, hey, if you don't know what you're doing, you're. You can blind yourself in real life and other people. Yes. Yeah.

[Scott Neal]

So the harshness of the art of distillation is knowing how much of the heads, how much of the tails, because that's the dirty side. Sock is the tails. The heads are some of the boldness and then a sweet spot called the hearts. And then you put it in a barrel, you proof it down from 160 down to maybe 125 and. Or 120, depending where you want to be. And you just put it away. It just sits there. Now here's the bad part. It evaporates. First year, 10% evaporates, absorbs in a barrel, 4%. So I'm racing mother nature right before it's gone in the barrel.

[Jocko Willink]

So eventually it's gone.

[Scott Neal]

It's gone.

[Echo Charles]

Is. Does.

[Scott Neal]

Does angel share?

[Echo Charles]

Does that contribute to the price?

[Scott Neal]

Yes. So happy at 22 years old because maybe you've got, you know, out of 53, maybe 5, 7, 8, 10 gallons left.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. When you say 80 years to grow the tree, that's for the wood for the barrels. Yeah, yeah. That's crazy.

[Scott Neal]

So there's no additives, whereas regular, like scotch, you can add caramel coloring to make it browner. Because it sits in these caves and it sits in Scotland where it's a very mild climate. And they're already used bourbon barrels. They're kind of burned out. So it'll come out not as amber as the consumer expects. So they're allowed to put a certain amount of caramel coloring. Just like rumors your age, rum isn't aged. There's some laws that say I can put, you know, so much of a 30 year old and the rest is one year old.

[Jocko Willink]

So a new barrel is gonna give more flavor.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, that's what bourbon is. That's the distinction. So there's not a lot of oak trees in Scotland, in Ireland, and it's.

[Jocko Willink]

Pretty much a one time use.

[Scott Neal]

That's it by law. I can only use it once. So the secondary bourbon markets. Soon as I pour it, I sell it on a secondary market. So it either becomes a tequila barrel or a wine barrel or a scotch barrel.

[Echo Charles]

So how long would you.

[Jocko Willink]

Or a grill or whatever you said.

[Scott Neal]

You made wood fire grill chips. Hey, I use every input, right? Talk about sustainable. Give me that, sell that.

[Echo Charles]

It's kind of legit. So, okay, so this is bourbon. How long would you say from knowing zero to the point where you, you can function in a business that you would consider successful? How long?

[Scott Neal]

Two to three years. What most people do, like celebrity brands, they hire somebody that's kind of been in the biz and they become the face so they can get consumers to start buying it. So you can buy existing bourbon, put it into your label with a low investment and they'll throw it into the market. And if it catches, they're already looking for a buyer right. To exit. So if you look at the acquisition side, it's typically a threshold of about 75,000 cases. If you can get your marketing and get into bars and get things going, typically a public will buy it, right? And then you've made multiples 10 x's, 12 x's in this industry.

[Echo Charles]

So deep it's obvious that, or it seems obvious from this position that you know more about bourbon than say the vodka, tequila scenarios. Gin.

[Scott Neal]

I know it all. Why? Because fundamentally the process is the same, right? And then you get to the marketing side. So not only do I have a brand, I'm in charge of going to the consumer facing side. So I have to do the events all around the country. I have to work with distributors, I have to work pricing incentives, bonuses, all of these other things as my competitor set on the bar. So if you look at a bar, right, I'm competing against not only my set, but the mind share of that bartender to pour, you know what I mean? More old fashions than, you know, Red Bull and vodka. So I have to be able to articulate why my product is better.

[Echo Charles]

Is bourbon your favorite drink out of everything? Like if you're.

[Scott Neal]

Of course it is gonna hang out?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, okay.

[Scott Neal]

No, I love tequila.

[Echo Charles]

No, right, There you go.

[Scott Neal]

There's one thing I want to start. It's my personal quest. Don Quixote Quest after the 250th, is that to make a shot of bourbon and a beer cool again like you saw in every old western. Because right now when I go to eat Mexican, what do I get? I get a beer and a shot of tea. I don't even think about it for my brand, if I could just bring back. Because the number one selling whiskey in the world is what?

[Echo Charles]

Whiskey? I don't know. Jack Daniels.

[Scott Neal]

Fireball. Fireball. It's consumed, going out of style. Going to any bachelorette party and there's a bucket of fireball.

[Jocko Willink]

Interesting.

[Echo Charles]

I don't think I've ever had fireball.

[Scott Neal]

Good.

[Echo Charles]

Don't you ever had fireball?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I have. Yeah. It's like, it's like, you know the little fireball that you had when you're a little kid.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's.

[Jocko Willink]

It's like that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Like, what was the other the mint one? What?

[Jocko Willink]

Rumple Mint.

[Echo Charles]

Rumple Mint. Is that okay?

[Scott Neal]

All right, well, it's about consuming, right? So drinks. There's about one and a half pores per drink. So if you look at the. The, you know, there are 10 top cocktails that every restaurant has on the menu. So it's martini or it's a gin fizz or it's a old fashioned or it's a Manhattan. Bourbon has two categories. So we're always trying to bump off somebody else to a bartender.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Scott Neal]

Hard part is I'm 57. I don't relate to 24 year olds. They don't care about the military or we were heroes of 9 11. They want to know what's the price point? Or my customer's going to ask for it. So we have to have a different kind of business conversation. All of that we knew nothing about. It's only because we just started talking.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That's crazy. You ever had a Long island iced tea?

[Scott Neal]

Love them.

[Echo Charles]

I kind of love everything.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, really?

[Echo Charles]

It's basically everything with sweet and sour and some coke on the top fountains.

[Scott Neal]

When you just hit every one of those, you know, America is still social. Right. And we have some challenges in our industry. You have, you know, access to CBDs and things that are the younger culture. That's how they socialize differently. Wine has really gone down. Americans, you know, not too many people are doing red wine and steaks. So we evolve.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Is alcohol consumption going down? Yeah, it certainly seems like it to me. And I.

[Scott Neal]

Beer.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Even I know that there's non alcoholic beer now. That's really, really popular. And also even in the culture of the military, which when I was a young seal, it was ridiculous. It was.

[Scott Neal]

Our number one cells are still the military in the nexcom and Apes channels. But there is a more consciousness for, you know, quality and fitness and everything. Right. So we have to evolve into that conversation next is people aren't that social anymore. They don't go out like they used to per se and, you know, out every night, all night. Now it's in. Now it's social media. Now I'm, you know, know I'm interacting different now.

[Jocko Willink]

It's Secret Hitler. Do you know what Secret Hitler is?

[Echo Charles]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a game. It's a board game. And it's. I've played it a few times and it's really fun. And like, I know people that, like, are 20, 22, 24 years old, and they go play Secret Hitler.

[Echo Charles]

Wait in. It's an in person board game.

[Jocko Willink]

It's an in person board game.

[Scott Neal]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's. It's kind of cool. You've got to kind of lie to each other. It's way better than clue, to be honest with you. You basically, you're trying, one person is Hitler. Like, you get a card, one person is Hitler, and then other people are either fascist or liberal. And you get card that says you're a liberal, you're a liberal, and you got to get certain laws. That's a little bit. It's not, it's not actually that complicated. Like, you can.

[Echo Charles]

You.

[Jocko Willink]

You'll learn to play it immediately. Yeah, but then what? The thing is, the secret Hitler, he. If he's the last man standing, you know, then the fascists win and he wins and that team wins. And if he's. Or the liberals can stop him by figuring out who it is and you can accuse him like you're Hitler, and then he can go, no, I'm not. And there's some way of proving it, but that's like a legitimate thing. I wouldn't have, When I was 22, 2 years old, I wouldn't have thought in 1 billion years of playing a board game with my friends.

[Scott Neal]

Yeah, you're now, you're now in the bridge category.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Scott Neal]

What do you mean? They're all coming over here to play.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And now these kids are like doing this and it's kind of, it's interesting. It's a new world. A little, A little bit more focus, like you said, a little bit more focus on health and, and fitness. So good. Good in that respect.

[Scott Neal]

It's what we've chosen. So this is our path. This will create generational wealth for our family. So this is the legacy we have to focus on, and it will be successful. If we wanted to exit today, we could exit and then what is the next question? But. So this is our battlefield. We've shaped it, we're, we're owning it. Mother Nature continues, continues to attack us from left and right. Covet. Hit. And the price of materials. Hit. You know, I've got competitors that are buying my bottling line, so I can't bottle. I mean, it's, it's, it is the game of the business world. And I love every fascinating second, you know, but I don't have the deploy troops button. Secret mission, nighttime, you know, there you go. And then one day, I hope I have a third chapter. So what's the third thing in your life? Do you give it back? You know, do you write your memoirs? What's the third phase? And I got to talk to President Bush, you know, after he left the presidency. What do you do when you're on top of the world and every day the decision's on you and knowledge is on you? And he took up painting like Churchill did, and, you know, he's focused on veterans and Africa and other things. So I think, think, you know, I'm, I'm anticipating what the next, the beginning of the rest of your life looks like.

[Jocko Willink]

There we go. Right on. Any other, Any other closing thoughts? That might have been it right there.

[Scott Neal]

America.

[Jocko Willink]

America. Awesome, man. Well, hey, thanks for joining us today. Thanks for sharing your, your experiences, the lessons learned along the way. Obviously, thanks for your service to the country, to, to special operations, and thanks for what you're doing now to build a building business and put people into work, man.

[Scott Neal]

Thank you for giving me a voice today. And there's more to come.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on. Awesome. Thank you.

[Scott Neal]

Thank you.

[Jocko Willink]

And with that, Scott, Neil has left the building. Great conversation. Great stuff he's got going on. That being said, look, we can't always be drinking bourbon. It's true. We're going to need other fuel is the system.

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

So if you're looking for some other fuel, some clean fuel, I recommend jockey fuel. So check it out, we got everything that you need. Jockerfuel.com we got energy, we got hydrate, we got protein, we got protein shakes, we got protein powder. We got joint warfare we got time war get on the time war Anti aging, yes. Get on the time war get on the super krill get on the joint warfare get the proper protein into your system. How you feel yourself is how you're going to perform. It dictates what you're doing in life. So fuel yourself properly. Jockeyfield.com we also have it available at Walmart. By the way, is there a Walmart near you?

[Echo Charles]

There is two Walmarts near me. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Check.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So anyone can go to Walmart. There's something like a Walmart. 90% of the population in America lives 10 miles or less from a Walmart.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you can go there, get some chocolate fuel. Also we got it at Wawa, Vitamin Shop, gnc, Military Commissaries, Aphies, Hannafords, Dash stores in Maryland, Wakefern, Shoprite, HEB down in Texas, Meijer up in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris, Teeter, Publix, Lifetime Fitness, Shields, small gyms everywhere. Where we got the crew, we got the team. Jackson, Jared and Chaz. They're just out there on the road.

[Echo Charles]

Jackson goes hard.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep, yep, they're delivering. And if they don't deliver, well, email jfsalesacofuel.com and they will deliver. They'll show up, make it happen. So that's what we're doing. Jockeyfuel.com Go check it out.

[Echo Charles]

Is there, is it true there's some new go flavors for the energy drink? Because I was, I was going over some labels that were sent to me so from for various artistic projects and there were some new flavors in those labels.

[Jocko Willink]

I believe we have some new flavors coming. New. A new flavor on its way. We're not talking about it now at this time. It's not out yet.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, so that's that. So check it out. Jocker, fuel.com I just had a go and a half. I'll probably finish this one on the way home. And I had a hydrate.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Cuz I was dehydrated.

[Scott Neal]

I understand.

[Jocko Willink]

From lifting.

[Echo Charles]

Oh dang.

[Scott Neal]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

I understand fully. I had a moke. You know, avoiding catabolic breakdown.

[Jocko Willink]

We don't want that.

[Scott Neal]

All right.

[Jocko Willink]

Also check out origin USA.com you need clothes. We're talking about American companies today. American made companies. OriginUSA.com what we got is we got jeans, boots, hats, beanies, belts, wallets, hunt gear, rain jacket, wind jacket, warm jacket, hoodies, multiple variations pants, multiple variations. We just got everything that you need and it's all made 100% in America. So that's what we're doing over here. We are making things 100% American from American made supp supplies. This isn't some free material that we bought from a slave driven environment overseas. This is from America. All the materials are from America and it's made right here in America. Go to originusa.com and check out America. That's what I got.

[Echo Charles]

It's true. Also Jaco store called Jocko Store. This discipline equals freedom stuff on there, some shirts, some hoodies on there as well. Some hats and stuff this year. What is it winter still right now? Spring.

[Jocko Willink]

It's winter.

[Echo Charles]

When is spring? Next month?

[Jocko Willink]

I don't know.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, well, we're coming out with some new stuff, a lot of new stuff. Varying levels of excitement. Either way, you want to be informed on this stuff that's coming in, go to jockostore.com and put your little email in the, in the, what do you call the email list. So keep you informed. I don't spam people with that. We don't spam people with that. But anyway, you can stay informed. The new stuff comes, boom, you got first, first dibs on that one. But yeah, some cool stuff on there. Also on Jocastore.com is what we call the shirt locker. It's a new design T shirt subscription scenario every month. I have a friend, good friend by the name of Dave Burke.

[Jocko Willink]

Good deal, Dave.

[Echo Charles]

Dave. And he was like, hey, you know, I've been, you know, members for a long time. Time, you know, and my shirts are kind of piling up. And he was almost indicating that, you know, he might put it on pause or something like this. I'm like, hey bro, do what you dig, you know, the shirt locker is here for you. See what I'm saying? Two days later, he sends me a text. He says, just when I thought I was out, you dragged me back in. That's it. That's all he sent. So I'm like, huh, Okay. I say, how so? Cuz I'd forgot about any other, you know, correspondence, you know, plus I was lifting at the time, so, you know, I'm thinking about other stuff. And he sends me a picture of this month's design.

[Jocko Willink]

Is it fire?

[Scott Neal]

It's fire.

[Echo Charles]

That's the, the no drinking ax. It's like the Dos Equis, like RIP or whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

That's right.

[Echo Charles]

Anyway, he just sends the picture of that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And I was like, he's like, dude, this is awesome. So hey man, like I said, some cool designs are a little bit different, a little bit outside of the, the, what do you call coloring outside the lines, a little bit outside the box, whatever. But I think people seem to like them anyway. Jocastore.com Click on Short Locker. You can kind of check them out if you like something, shoot something.

[Jocko Willink]

Also check out coloradocraft, beef.com and primalbeef.com. this is where you can get your steak, your beef jerky, your beef sticks, your hot dogs, your burgers. All from American companies, American families. Awesome people, awesome companies, awesome steaks. Go get some primalbeef.com and Colorado craft beef.com also subscribe to this podcast. Also check out Jocko underground.com. it's where we answer your questions directly. Also check out. We have a bunch of YouTube channels. We got Psychological Warfare. We have Flipside Canvas. We got books. And now I mentioned a book today. We'll probably cover it in the future. It's Swords of Lightning by Mark and Bob, who were out on these horse soldier operations. And then I've written a bunch of books about leadership. And I've written a bunch of kids books. Kids books are being turned into a movie. Already been filmed. By the way, Echo Charles is in it.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Plays a very important role. Sure.

[Echo Charles]

Foundational.

[Jocko Willink]

Foundational. It provides excellence and legitimacy to the whole scene.

[Echo Charles]

That's. That's the word.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's what we're doing. But you know, you're gonna have to wait a while for the movie because it takes a while for these people to. To finish post production.

[Echo Charles]

That's real.

[Jocko Willink]

But in the meantime, we wrote awesome books. And when I say we, I guess I mean me. So check it out the way the Warrior Kid series, also check out Mikey and the Dragons. That's what we got going for you. Also, Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. We take these lessons that we learn on the battlefield and we teach them to people who are in leadership positions, which, by the way, is everyone. So if you need help inside your organization, go to echelonfront.com you can come into one of our live events or you can bring our company into your company to help with your leadership. We also have an online training academy because people around the world need to get better at leadership. You are not born to lead. You're not born to lead. You have to learn how to lead. These are skills, skills that we can teach you and skills that are applicable not only to, oh, I'm in a business, or oh, I'm running an organization, but also skills that are applicable to everything that you do. Every interaction you have with your kids, with your wife, with your husband, with your team, with your neighbors. Learn how to handle all those things. Go to extremeownership.com and if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, want to help gold star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization, takes care of so many of our veterans. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org also check out HeroesAndHorses.org Micah Fink up there in the mountains of Montana. And then Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood.org check all those out. And if you want to connect with Scott Neal, once again, he's got horsesoldier bourbon.com on the interwebs. He's got the Instagram Horse Soldier Bourbon. Twitter x@ HorsesOldier USA and then he's got the YouTube, Facebook are both at Horse Soldier Bourbon. And then he's got Scott Neal, which is whiskey and war stories. So check that one out on the for us. You can check out jocko.com we're also on social media. I'm at Jocko Willink. Echoes at Echo. Charles, just be careful because that thing will wreck your whole freaking, freaking morning, morning, noon or night. I heard a fact the other day, they're saying that the average screen time is seven hours. Come on, people, don't do it. Don't do it. Get away from it. That's what we got. Once again, thanks to Scott Neal for coming on here. Thanks for your service. Thanks for your lessons learned about business and about life. Thanks to all our military personnel with a specific salute to our Green Beret brothers from Special Forces, from the SOG guys in Vietnam to the mountains of Afghanistan. Thank you for taking the fight to the enemy by, with and through the host nation. So you guys do it better than anyone. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all of the first responders. Thank you all for fighting crime here at home and for keeping us safe and everyone else out there. Just because one game is over doesn't mean you can't get in another game, right? Look at Scott and the rest of his crew. All of them had earned a nice comfy retirement. 25 years in the military, multiple wars. They could have gone to the sidelines, game over, but they didn't. Found a new game, a new mission, and they executed. And you can do the same at any time in any phase of life. You can get in the game, but that's up to you. And I recommend in order to do that, you go get after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.