480: Learn To Read, Write, And Think.

Summary

Jocko Podcast Episode 480: Learn To Read, Write, And Think

Release Date: March 5, 2025
Hosts: Jocko Willink and Echo Charles

In Episode 480 of the Jocko Podcast, titled "Learn To Read, Write, And Think," retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink and Director Echo Charles delve deep into the critical role of literacy and effective communication in various facets of life, including military operations, business leadership, and personal relationships. The episode emphasizes that writing and reading are not just academic skills but foundational tools for successful leadership and mission execution.

---

1. The Foundation of Leadership: Writing and Reading

Jocko opens the discussion by reflecting on his decision to study English in college despite his extensive experience with Navy SEAL teams. He explains that writing and reading are integral to his role as an officer:

Jocko Willink [00:06]: "The better you could write, read, the better you could do your job, the better you could execute your mission because you can formulate good concepts of operations that will get approved."

Echo echoes the sentiment, highlighting the universal necessity of effective communication skills in leadership roles.

2. Academic Pursuits and Practical Applications

Jocko shares his academic journey, emphasizing the practical applications of studying English in the military context. He underscores how writing evaluations, awards, operational summaries, and reading orders are everyday tasks that require strong literacy skills:

Jocko Willink [00:30]: "The better you write, the better you can speak, and really, the better you can think."

He further explains how writing serves as a form of detachment, allowing leaders to critically assess and refine their ideas:

Jocko Willink [NN:SS]: "When you write, it’s a form of detachment. It’s 18 inches of detachment. You move 18 inches away from your idea when you write them down, so you can look at it and you can make more sense of it."

3. Learning from Shakespeare: Enhancing Language Skills

Jocko recounts his early encounters with Shakespearean literature during his English studies. He notes that while Shakespeare's use of Early Modern English initially posed comprehension challenges, it ultimately enriched his understanding of language nuance and depth:

Jocko Willink [03:30]: "With Shakespeare, what you end up realizing is that every word is being used for a very specific reason. And it has depth and it has meaning and it has nuance and it has layers."

Echo complements this by drawing parallels between complex writing and effective storytelling, such as in cooking recipes, where clarity and purpose are paramount.

4. Teaching Writing in the Navy: Overcoming Challenges

Transitioning back to his military experience, Jocko discusses his role in teaching writing to his peers. He describes the initial difficulties faced by warrant officers in crafting effective evaluations and how implementing a structured review process led to significant improvements:

Jocko Willink [05:00]: "We rewrote them all, sat in my office, came into work early, and just for three weeks, just sat there and rewrote them all."

Echo adds a contemporary example from their underground podcast, illustrating the ongoing challenges and importance of precise written communication in leadership:

Jocko Willink [10:49]: "Writing is very difficult, and it's so important. You ever had a received an email that pissed you off?"

5. Debunking Writing Myths: Emphasizing Skill Over Talent

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to dispelling common misconceptions about writing. Jocko and Echo emphasize that writing is a learnable skill, not an innate talent, and discuss various myths such as:

• Myth: Writing is easy for good writers, but hard for weak writers.
• Fact: Writing is hard for everyone; good writers excel because they work hard at it.

Jocko Willink [14:02]: "Writing is a skill, and it's not a natural skill. Unfortunately, it's not natural any more than playing guitar is natural."

6. Insights from the Command and General Staff College Professional Writing Guide

Jocko introduces the "Command and General Staff College Professional Writing Guide," highlighting its structured approach to writing. He breaks down the writing process into several stages:

1. Plan: Analyze the task and create a writing plan.
2. Research: Gather strong evidence, avoid bias, take organized notes.
3. Draft: Write an introduction, main body, and conclusion.
4. Revise: Improve substance and organization.
5. Edit: Enhance clarity and conciseness.
6. Submit: Proofread and finalize the document.

Jocko Willink [21:23]: "Writing is a process, not a product."

Echo underscores the importance of each stage, relating it to everyday tasks like writing emails or presenting ideas in meetings.

7. The Art of Rewriting: From Drafts to Clarity

The episode delves into the necessity of rewriting and editing to achieve clear and concise writing. Jocko illustrates how even his first drafts of books like "Extreme Ownership" were significantly different from their final versions:

Jocko Willink [21:24]: "Rewrite it. Use the process. This guide can help."

He shares anecdotes about the painstaking process of refining evaluations and how structured feedback sessions led to substantial improvements.

8. Overcoming Clutter and Embracing Simplicity

Echo and Jocko discuss the pitfalls of cluttered writing, advocating for simplicity and clarity. They reference strategies to eliminate unnecessary words and prefer active voice over passive constructions to enhance readability:

Jocko Willink [73:58]: "Clear writing is no accident. Very few sentences come out right the first time or even the third time."

Echo adds practical tips on reducing friction in habits through deliberate choices in attire, drawing a parallel between simplifying writing and streamlining personal routines.

9. Utilizing Tools and Seeking Feedback

The hosts highlight various tools and techniques for effective proofreading and editing, such as reading aloud, using grammar checkers, and seeking external feedback. Jocko emphasizes the value of having fresh eyes review one's work to catch errors that may have been overlooked:

Jocko Willink [75:49]: "Read the paper aloud to hear errors. Very smart. This is the best."

Echo concurs, mentioning the importance of detachment and allowing time between writing and reviewing to gain a clearer perspective.

10. Conclusion: Writing as a Pillar of Effective Leadership

Jocko and Echo wrap up the episode by reaffirming that writing is not merely a technical skill but a foundational element of effective leadership. They encourage listeners to embrace writing as a means to enhance their thinking, communication, and leadership abilities:

Jocko Willink [97:57]: "Your mind is like your body. You need to learn skills. You need to train it, you need to exercise it. You need to make your mind strong."

Echo adds a motivational note, linking the discipline of writing to broader personal and professional growth:

Echo Charles [93:56]: "Reduce the friction of your habit. If you wear discipline equals freedom, it makes it harder to skip a workout."

---

Notable Quotes:

• Jocko Willink [00:06]: "The better you could write, read, the better you could do your job, the better you could execute your mission."
• Jocko Willink [03:30]: "Every word is being used for a very specific reason. And it has depth and it has meaning and it has nuance and it has layers."
• Jocko Willink [14:02]: "Writing is a skill, and it's not a natural skill."
• Jocko Willink [21:23]: "Writing is a process, not a product."
• Jocko Willink [73:58]: "Clear writing is no accident."
• Echo Charles [93:56]: "Reduce the friction of your habit."

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Writing and Reading as Leadership Tools: Effective communication through writing and reading is essential for successful leadership, mission execution, and team management.
2. Writing as a Learned Skill: Contrary to popular belief, writing proficiency is achievable through deliberate practice and structured learning.
3. The Importance of Rewriting: Rewriting and editing are critical processes that transform initial drafts into clear, concise, and impactful documents.
4. Simplicity and Clarity: Striving for simplicity and clarity in writing enhances understanding and effectiveness.
5. Practical Strategies and Tools: Utilizing proofreading techniques, seeking feedback, and employing writing tools can significantly improve writing quality.
6. Discipline Equals Freedom: Embracing disciplined writing habits contributes to overall personal and professional growth.

---

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for listeners aiming to enhance their writing skills as a means to improve leadership and personal effectiveness. By interweaving personal anecdotes, professional experiences, and practical advice, Jocko and Echo provide valuable insights into the art and discipline of writing.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 480 with Echo, Charles, and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

So I went to college to study English. Why did I go to study. Why did I go to college to study English? I went because I had already been in the SEAL teams for what it had been 10 years at that point, and I knew that writing was very important. I was. I'd become an officer now. I knew that writing was very important. You're writing awards, you're writing evaluations, you're writing concept of operations, you're writing operational summaries. It's a lot of writing. I know that sounds weird. And then on top of that, you're reading a bunch. You're reading orders, general orders. You're reading. And you have to understand rules of engagement. You're reading, and you under. You have to understand after actions, reports you're reading. You have to understand lessons learned. So there's a lot of reading and a lot of writing. And what I realized was the better you could write, read, the better you could do your job, the better you could execute your mission because you can. You can formulate good concepts of operations that will get approved, the better you could summarize what you've done in an operational summary. So you can accomplish your mission better, and you can take care of your team better because you've got awards and you want your guys to get awards, and you're writing your evaluations for your guys, which is how they get promoted. And on top of all that, obviously, when you're in a leadership position in the military, you've got to be able to speak. You've got to be able to convey plans, you've got to be able to explain your ideas, you've got to be able to talk through tactics, you've got to be able to explain missions and answer questions in order to get approval. All that's up the chain of command and then down the chain of command, you got to speak in a way that the troops actually understand what you're saying and understand what the plan is. And if you have miscommunications or misunderstandings, they can have catastrophic outcomes for real. So the better you write, the better you can speak, and really, the better you can think. And I've said this before, when you write is a form of detachment. It's 18 inches of detachment. You move 18 inches away from your idea when you write them down, so you can look at it and you can make more sense of it. So because of all that, when I went to college. I studied English, which meant I took classes on literature, which is. I took classes on, you know, books, poems, plays, the whole nine yards, bro. I was in there. And I took classes on grammar. I took classes on syntax. I took classes on etymology, where words came from, and quite frankly, enjoyed it all. Learned a lot. And I learned mostly from Shakespeare, from reading Shakespeare. Now why'd I learn a lot from Shakespeare? Shakespeare is written in English, but it's actually written in something called Early Modern English, which was around from like 1500 to 1800. Before that, there was something called Old English, which was 450 to 1100, and then Middle English, which is 1100 to 1500. If you've ever heard someone speak in Old English, you can't understand it. It sounds freaking wicked cool, but it's. You can't understand it.

[Echo Charles]

Wait, Old English is.

[Jocko Willink]

When you said 450 to 1100.

[Echo Charles]

Is that the like, speaketh. I speak.

[Jocko Willink]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Echo Charles]

Before that even.

[Jocko Willink]

We're getting there. That's way before it. Like, you can't understand. I should have brought some in and read it. You can't understand any better than you can understand Spanish. Like, occasionally hear a word in Spanish that'll be like hymnasio. And you're like, oh, is that. That could be gym, right? Gymnasium, Right. So it's kind of the same level of. Of comprehensions. That's Old English. Then Middle English, you can understand a little bit more, but it still is not something you're going to understand openly. And then you get to Late Modern English, there's Early Modern English. So Early Modern English, this is. This is Early Modern English is like 1500-1800. Shakespeare was around 1600. So that's what he's writing. It's something called Early Modern English. What we speak is called Late Modern English. Starting around 1800 to the present, there's differences. Some of them are pretty significant. There's. There's different word orders that they use. This is where you have things like dost and half and thou and the and thy. They're all in there. But those are pretty. Those are. You can kind of. We even know what those mean right now. But there's other things. There's inconsistent spellings. So when you're reading something, you're like, don't know what is. There's archaic words that just don't get used anymore. And so Late Modern English and what we speak today is very similar. Very similar, but it's not the same. It's not the same. And the very first time I read Shakespeare, I was. I didn't understand it. Didn't understand it. And what I explained to people is you don't understand it when you first read Shakespeare. You'll understand chunks of it, but you're not gonna understand the meaning. So what I learned how to do was I had to accept the fact, you know how I wrote in way of the warrior kid, about the kid who Mark, he doesn't know his time table, so he thinks he's stupid. And Uncle Jake's like, well, bro, did you study? And he's like, well, no. He says, well, you need to study. I went through that same little three minute evolution where I'm reading Shakespeare going, dude, well, I don't understand this. Am I an idiot? Oh, no, this is a little bit. Basically a different language. So how am I supposed to be able to understand it? No, you got to get out a dictionary and you got to break it down and you got to figure out what every word means, and then you get understanding of it. You. We use this dictionary called the oed, the Oxford English Dictionary, which gives you where the word came from when it was first used, how it was used over time. Like it's very in depth. And with Shakespeare, what you end up realizing is that every word is being used for a very specific reason. And it has depth and it has meaning and it has nuance and it has layers. The words have layers. Every word counts. So that's what. So I got a lot out of that. And then when I was got back to the Navy, eventually I had to teach people how to write better. So evaluations. I got 150 people at trade at 150 people that need to be evaluated. They need written evaluations. That part of it is a number score. We covered that on podcast 174. It's like the, the. We covered the Marine Corps one and the Navy one. But it's. You get ranked one to five on your little traits, but you also have a little write up area. And the write up area is very important. And it's a certain, I think it's 17 lines that you have. And you've got to be able to make those 17 lines impactful because this is how you get people promoted. Because when they're doing their promotion board, the guy's not in the room, there's no interview. It's just that piece of paper, the number score and what does it say about him? So the better you write about the people, the more chance they have of getting promoted. So my first year at tradet, I just had my warrant officers. Pretty much there's a warrant officer that's in charge of each one of the cells. Land warfare, maritime operations, cqc, assault. So there's a warrant officer in charge of each one of them. I had them give me their write ups, their. Their drafts of the evaluations, and they weren't good, but I did it too late. So in other words, I asked for. Let's say they were due like in, In November. Well, I did. I said, okay, you guys turn them in, you know, November 1st, they turn them in November 1st. They're. They're not good. No offense to my boys that are out there listening to me right now, but you guys know they weren't good. And I'll tell you how they knew it. So I. It was too late, though, to have them go. And so I rewrote them all, sat in my office, came into work early, and just for three weeks, just sat there and rewrote them all. So I knew that that was bad. So the next year, earlier, much earlier, you know, two months or three months in advance, I said, okay, everyone, write the evaluation for your best guy. And then we're gonna have a meeting. And we had a meeting. I got everyone together and I just brought them up, like, their evaluation, those 17 lines that they had written, I brought them up one by one. And you know, the very first one I remember bringing up, I like, put it on. It was the warrant officers and the Massachusetts. And I bring it up, put one up on the board and just. I just read the first out of this thing, and you could tell right away, like, everyone's just. Right, it just sounded bad. Everyone knew it. And we just went through that one and kind of like, okay, what are we trying to say there? We rewrote that line, and we did line by line, talked them through the word choice, talked them through simplifying, talking, through removing the words and adding words and the passive voice versus the, the. The active voice. Just went through the basic English with them and then sent them back to go try again. And that's what they did. And, and now the next time when they, when they learned how to write, basically, because you don't get. There's no freaking English classes in the Navy. There's no SEAL warrant officer that went to an English class. No, they're just going with what they learned in high school, which they probably dropped out of. Right? So. But this time, as soon as they learned that process, they were a lot better. So last week, you and I got A question on the Underground, the Underground podcast. And it was basically from a guy who'd been, you know, he's sending emails to his team, and his boss came and was like, hey, your emails are not good. They're offending people. They're causing problems. And he. He wanted to do better. And, you know, we answered the question. But I kept thinking about that because writing is very difficult, and it's so important. It is so important. You ever had a. Received an email that pissed you off?

[Echo Charles]

I'm sure I have, but.

[Jocko Willink]

That'S the. You ever received a text that pissed you off?

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

You see what I'm saying? Those are written words. And writing is very, very difficult to convey a message in writing that you want to pass to someone. And as a leader, this is something that you have to do a lot of. And by the way, we're all leaders. So writing is a skill, and it's not a natural skill. Unfortunately, it's not natural any more than playing guitar is natural, any more than weightlifting is natural or gymnastics is natural. Now, are there people that are naturally a little bit better at weightlifting? Yes, there are. Are there people that are n. A little bit better at gymnastics? Yes, there are. Are there people that are naturally a little bit better at music? Yes. But it doesn't matter how natural you are at music. If you don't pick up a guitar and practice, you won't be able to play it. And even if you are naturally gifted and you play it a little bit, you won't be really good unless you practice, unless you learn. Unless you learn that skill. It's the same thing with gymnastics. It's the same thing with weightlifting. It's the same thing with basketball. It's the same thing with anything. It's not a natural skill, but you can get better at all of them, and you can get better at writing. And when you get better at writing, it will not just improve your writing, it'll improve the way that you speak, it'll improve the way that you think, and it will improve the way that you lead. So I was kind of gnawing on that, and I felt like this question that we got asked, even though we did our best to answer it, there's more to it. You know, I threw some things out in that podcast, like, hey, here's some steps you can take. But number one, I think people need to recognize the importance of it, and number two, how hard it is. And number three, that it's a skill. So I was, you know, being me. I had recently seen a A recently published document from the Command and General Staff College Military School that commanders and generals go to to learn how to be commanders and generals. And it's. It's called the Professional Writing Guide, and it's from the Command and General Staff College. And I was like, I want, you know, because you think military, right? You get a little nervous. You're like, oh, no, here we go. It's going to be strange. But I looked at. I was like, oh, pretty good stuff in here. Project editors, guy named Trent Light Lithgow. And then there's a bunch of contributors. Alan Boyce, Sean Calico, Richard McConnell, Mary Noll, Bruce Reader. And they were all working for a group chair named Marvin Nichols. So here's a bunch of people, a committee, which I'm not a big fan of committees, but a committee put together. And I thought it would be good to bring this out, because if you interact with other people, whether it's text, whether it's email, whether it's actually writing letters or writing directions or writing instructions or protocols for people, if you don't think about what you're doing, you won't become a good writer. And if you're. If you don't become a good writer, it's gonna negatively impact the way you speak, the way you think, and the way you lead. So there we go.

[Echo Charles]

Let me ask you this. Do you. Do you journal?

[Jocko Willink]

No.

[Echo Charles]

So. But you know what I mean by journal, right? Like daily. Because I guess there's different levels of journaling, Right. So even because you used to write down your workouts too, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Yep, I do that. Is that journaling?

[Echo Charles]

I guess, right?

[Jocko Willink]

I journal then.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. In that way you do.

[Jocko Willink]

I wish I would have journaled. And it's so. Especially on deployments, because everything kind of becomes a blur. The closest thing I have to journals from deployments, and this is kind of useful, is I. I had a. Like a notebook, and I actually have six, I think, from Ramadi. I think I have six of these small spiral brown bound notebooks. But I would bring them to all these meetings and briefs and events with me, and I would take notes. You know, if I went to a brigade meeting, I'd come back and tell the guys what was going on. If I was in as sitting through one of our briefs or a battalion brief, I would take notes and ask questions or whatever. And I have all those with me.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So in a way, there's no dates.

[Jocko Willink]

In it, though, unfortunately. But the thing it is, most of them are, some of them have dates. But a lot of Them have mission numbers. So like, when Task Unit Ramadi was going on a mission, I would have sit in the brief and take notes for like, hey, what about this? Hey, did you deconflict with these guys? Would just be a series of notes, but it would say, you know, our missions were numbered and named and so. And I wouldn't usually write the name. I would just write the number. It say, you know, Ram 329. Because there was other task units that had their mission numbers and they had different names. Like there was a group in Habane Habanya, and they were like HAB. Like HAB324. So those were a set of numbers, set of missions. And then wherever the other group was, Fallujah FAL2C272. So everyone's numbering our own thing. So the mindset, RAM9 4. Or we didn't get up to 900, but RAM2 9 6. So I have those notes. Yeah, but it's not really a journal. I wish it were was. I wish I would have done the. The audio. Even the audio thing of telling what's happening each day. Because everything you heard when. When General McFarland was on and like everything in my mind, the timing is weird. The timing is my. My. In my mind, how long things took is not accurate. Like, I was like, dang, we did three or four combat outposts in like a few weeks, and they were all so big. Plus, you're awake for so long. I wish I would have done a better job of that. And I tell people now, I'm like, hey, if you. Even if you write down, you know, what's today, blah, blah, blah, here's the date, here's what I did today. Even that to use as reference in the future is very. Is a very smart thing to do.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It makes a big difference.

[Jocko Willink]

Now I have workout books going out, going back, you know, years.

[Echo Charles]

And you have dates.

[Jocko Willink]

Decades. Yes.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So they kind of. Even those notes, they kind of serve in. In, I mean, journals for a lot of reasons. But the workout notes, even the notes from your. Your missions and stuff, it kind of went like, if you go back and read them, a lot of memories will probably come popping back in like, oh, I remember that. Which you maybe wouldn't have remembered, you know, otherwise. But yeah, in school, elementary school, I remember it was like they made us write in a journal just for 15 minutes or something every day.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, it's so good.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When my. When my son went to J. Rob wrestling camp, when that was a thing and you had to keep a journal there. It's so freaking cool to see. So, yes, I. Even though I don't journal, I think it's awesome. And I. I would recommend anyone does that. Especially nowadays with the technology that you have that you could hit a record and be like, hey, this is the day. Even if you made a video of yourself every day.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And just said, hey, it's January 4th. Just got done working out. I got this project going on, and I, you know, hurt my left shoulder yesterday, but it's healing. You know what I mean? Just, like, random stuff like that is very useful because time becomes very, very skewed and unrecognizable in some cases.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

In your mind.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, man. My mother sent me a package of old stuff randomly, probably. She was probably cleaning out some stuff. And, you know, there's. So there's old drawings that we drew and all this other stuff. 1. And one of things was a paper. You know, those. I guess we still have. You know the yellow paper, Right. That you write on. Yeah. Is written on that legal pad.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's called a legal pad. Yep.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And it was in pencil, too, which, I don't know, it kind of adds to the oldness of it, but it was like. It was like a journal. But you could tell. I don't really remember doing it, but you could tell as punishment, because I did something. I think I. For lack of better way of putting it, abandoned my younger brother in town. We went down to Claw Town, which is a town of quiet. And after school. After school, it was me, my two brothers, some friends, and my younger brother. I abandoned him at some point. It was like, kind of like a thing. They had to go search for him and not search, like, call the authorities, nothing. But, you know, it's like, hey, where's your brother? Oh, dang. I don't know. We lost him. So we, you know, had to go search around town, got him anyway. It looked like it was punishment for that, for me losing him, essentially. So I had. It was basically a. A. An account of what happened that whole day. But I was like, what, nine, ten years old maybe, you know, and, yeah, it's funny to see just every. All the detail that. Even the unwritten detail, like, just like the fact that it was in pencil, my handwriting at the time, and, like, you know, the grammar, imperfections and stuff like that. It's like. It really tells this, like, robust kind of story, even though some details are obviously left out. You can kind of. You mix that with your memory and you can kind of start to learn a little bit about the past. You know, totally, totally weird.

[Jocko Willink]

That's good stuff. And. And that's going to be one of the things we'll talk about today. It's just like, the more you write, the better you'll get. There's no doubt about it. The more you write, you. The better you get. So let's jump into this book again. This book right here is called. It's called the Command and General Staff Staff College Professional Writing Guide. That's what we're doing. So it kicks off here. It says professional writing. The Command and General Staff College Writing Guide aims to Command and General Staff College CGSC students improve their writing skills. But this guide isn't just for CGSC students. It can help all army professionals craft writing that meets army standards. Being clear, concise, well organized, and easy to read and understand. So even though it's talking about the army, that's. Guess what? That's what you want to do as a human. You want your writing to be clear, concise, well organized, easy to read and understand. That's what we want. This guide's central idea is that writing is a process, not a product. This is important because if you don't understand that and you think that the first thing you write is going to be. Should be good to go. You're a total idiot. Which I was. And you know what's cool is I have drafts, especially writing Extreme Ownership. We have, like, all the drafts because, you know, they digitally get saved.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So we have drafts. Like the very first draft of Extreme Ownership. It's so bad. It's so bad. And then by the time we wrote the Dichotomy of Leadership, it was like, oh, this cleaned up. And now, meanwhile, I was writing Warrior Kid, Warrior Kid one, Warrior Kid two, Warrior Kid three. Then I wrote Discipline Freedom Field Manual, but. And then came Dichotomy. And so now I'm, like, actually writing a lot and editing a lot. So I see, like, the first draft of Dichotomy, it's much better. By the time I got to Leadership Strategy and Tactics, the first draft is, like, advanced. It is way better than the first draft of Extreme Ownership. And then, you know, you get to the later Warrior Kid books. Those are. The amount of editing was much less because I was just better. I got better over time. And. And by the way, this is coming from someone that wrote a bunch of papers during college and all that crap. So even Extreme ownership was. Was really bad. And I had written a Lot. And I had paid attention to writing, like when you're writing those evals, evaluations and awards and stuff, that's very, very precise writing. That has a high demand for accuracy and competency. So I learned that what they're saying here, writing is a process. That's what it is. It says here, finally, a word of encouragement. You can write, you will struggle, but all writers do, because writing is hard. Do not be disappointed when your writing is not born perfect. Writing never is. Rewrite it. Use the process. This guide can help. Very important. And by the way, this is what, this is what triggered me to talk about this. When you write an email, that's an important email, you have to write a draft first, you have to go back and edit it. And I'll get into that stuff. But just because I'm talking about writing books, you have to do this with an email too. You have to do this with procedures that you're writing. You have to do this with a text message, right? If you're writing a serious text message, you gotta write through that thing, you gotta check it and we'll talk about how to do that. But, but so if you're sitting here thinking, well, I'm not writing any books, press stop. No, I'm talking about writing a freaking email. I'm talking about writing a text to your kids. How does it come across? You need to think about these things. So that's what we're doing then. I was a little nervous because the kick off of this thing was like full military activity. And it's writing process, quick guide and it's this graph and it says plan, analyze the task, make a writing plan. Next is research. Gather strong evidence, avoid bias, take organized notes, keep track of sources. It just goes through this whole protocol. The next, the draft, write an introduction, main body and conclusion. Organize the main body logically. State claims clearly and support them with evidence and reasoning, consideration, counter arguments, integrate. And it goes through this whole thing. I'm not going to read them all and look, is it wrong? No, it's not wrong. It's 100% right. But it's very military minded to take this creative process and break it down. And that's actually a good thing. I'm not saying it's bad, but it goes through. The first thing you do is come up with a plan. The next thing you're going to do is do research. The next thing you're going to do is write a draft. Then you're going to revise the draft, then you're going to edit the draft, and then you're going to submit it. That's what it does. And then it go. And then it gives you sort of like what you're trying to accomplish. What you're trying to accomplish is come up with a coherent thesis and then advance that coherent thesis. And then, you know, use clear, concise sentences and prefer active. So it's giving you a bunch of advice like that, and eventually it's telling you that you're going to be submitting this document. So moving to this, this first chapter, which is kind of introduction introducing the whole thing. Writing is hard work. William Zinsser quote here. Writing is hard work. A clear sentence is no accident. Very few sentences come out right the first time or even the third time. Think about that. Think about that. Very few sentences come out the right time or even the third time. Or Sorry. Come out right the first time or even the third time. Remember this. In moments of despair, you'll find that writing is hard. It's. Writing is hard. It's. If you find that writing is hard, it's because it is hard. Now, going to the passage here. Effective, professional writing is purposeful, credible and clear. Purposeful writing achieves its aim by meeting the reader's needs. Credible writing is objective and supported by strong evidence and sound reasoning. Finally, clear writing is simple, concise, and easy to understand. Purposeful, credible, clear writing meets the academic demands and professional demands of military leadership. So the thing is, this isn't only about writing professional things. This is everything that you do. This is when you write an email to your spouse about what you want to do. This is everything that you do should. Now, look, it doesn't mean that you're going to have. What is it here? A credible. You don't have to bring up credible sources when you email your wife about something, although you may do that, hey, I looked into the paint that we want to get. Here's the paint that I recommend. Here's why I recommend it. You see what I'm saying? And then it gets into this. Writing myths, which I thought were worth going over. Many people have mistaken beliefs about writing. One of the most common and harmful is that the ability to write well is a rare gift or unique talent. Writing is neither. Writing is a skill that people can learn and improve. Again, this is just reinforcing what I kicked off with. Anyone willing to work at it can learn to write well. Other writing myths include. Here's a myth. Myth. Writing is easy for good writers, but hard for weak writers. Fact. Writing is hard for everyone. Good writers write well, because they work hard at it. Their first drafts are just as terrible as everyone else's and may require many rewrites. Rewrites. Ernest Hemingway, for example, rewrote the last page of A farewell to arms 47 times. Myth good writers use big words to sound smart. Simple words sound dumb. Fact. The best writers use simple, clear, concise language. Good writing is easy to read and understand, whereas fancy language muddies writing and can often hide weak ideas. Good to know. Myth Only weak writers need feedback. Fact. All writers benefit from feedback. The best writers seek it out. Feedback helps writers develop and improve. Even successful professional writers get feedback from their editors. Fact. All true. So if you can get someone to look at your stuff, it's going to help you and it's going to hurt a little bit. That's one of the most direct. One of the times where I find direct feedback, as opposed to indirect, is like writing, hey, this sentence doesn't make sense. Leif and I, when we were going back and forth, especially on extreme ownership, with dichotomy as well, but because we needed. Because we were worse writers. And as we. As you're doing it, you're getting better. You know, you get better each time. And. But yeah, I'd be like, you know, Leif would send me like, hey, this sentence doesn't make any sense. This paragraph seems like a waste. And I'd send him back like, on. Because he's reviewing my writing and I'm reviewing his writing and we're just going back and forth. But just. There's no sort of, like, tact. It was just very bro. Like, because I think both of us knew that both of us were trying to achieve the same goal of get a good product out there. Next one. Myth Good writers have everything figured out before they start writing. Fact. Writers rarely know exactly what they will write until they write it. Writing is not just a way of communicating. It is a way of learning. Moving ideas from the brain to the page reveals their strengths and weaknesses. The process of rewriting what is on the page strengthens and sharpens the thinking behind it. Essays evolve as writing and thinking become clearer. Right. So important to think about if you. I can tell you right now, like, I got so much better and so did Leif at articulating cover and move and simple and prioritize next year because we wrote about them now. That will happen with anything. If you're going to go into a meeting and you're going to present an idea and you don't write about that idea, you don't at Least give yourself some bullet points. Hopefully a little bit more detailed than bullet points. There's a decent chance you fall in your face if you're like, all right, all right, I'm going to go into this meeting and I'm going to put out some word about some stuff or I'm going to present some ideas. You better write that stuff down so you can articulate it better. And it's not just so you can articulate it better, it's so you can understand it better. Writing is very helpful help in, in your ability to think. Another myth. Good writing is beautiful. To be sure. Here's the fact. To be sure, good literary writing is beautiful. But people read literature for fun in their personal time at work. People are busy. They expect effective writing that gets to the point. And the next one myth. Good writing is a matter of opinion. Fact. Although beautiful writing is a matter of opinion, good professional writing is not. Cognitive science has discovered well defined strategy that help writers communicate their ideas. These strategies underpin this writing guide. So there is a difference, right? We're not writing poetry over here. Now, when you're writing poetry, cool. That is subjective. Oh, I think that's a beautiful poem. I think it's stupid. Okay, cool. But what they're saying here is if you're writing a. Presenting an idea or a case, there's a professional way to do that and there's cognitive research that shows like, oh, yeah, if you present your idea like this and it has these connections and it ties it together, that will be more understood than this dipshit stuff you're doing over here.

[Echo Charles]

You ever read a food blog?

[Jocko Willink]

I don't think so.

[Echo Charles]

Doesn't seem like something you read, but you never know. So. So I know that food blogs or recipe blog type blogs, writing, whatever, get a lot of flack for something, which I think what you're talking about now. So let's say there's a recipe of some steak, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Hell yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Hell yeah. Right? So you're like, oh, there's an article on how to cook the perfect steak. You're like, hell yeah. You open it up, you start reading and then the author of this article, who may or may not be a chef, they'll be like, well, it started when I was 8 years old and I was by the campfire and all this. Oh. And you start getting really angry because like, Brad, just tell me how to make the stake. You see what I'm saying? But they kind of flipped it a little bit. Like they didn't maybe consider their audience. I think A lot of the times where they're like, hey, let me focus on certain dynamics of this writing versus the content of the. Of the writing that I'm kind of conveying. You see what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Well, so you're saying certain times you want to hear the story and certain times you don't.

[Echo Charles]

Right. Under what circumstances would the story matter? Usually not about a recipe scenario. See what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, well, true. But if you want to convey a reason why you do things a certain way, then telling a story around it might be important.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And I think, yeah, under a lot of circumstances, those stories are so helpful.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. I mean, that's basically, again, going back to whether it's a way of the warrior kid or, you know, leadership strategy and tactics or extreme ownership. These books are stories that make you understand the principle.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's usually a good idea to do that. Now, like in Leadership Strategy and tactics, I talk about, here's a principle, here's a story that kind of represents that, and here's the breakdown of the recipe. So there's times where you got to use all three of those things to get the message across. Getting into the re. The writing process. The secret to writing is rewriting. This is, again, something you just don't understand. When you. If you think you're just going to write a sentence, sentence is going to be good. Nope. Writing is not just turning ideas into words, sentences, and paragraphs. That is drafting, which is only one activity in the writing process. All writers draft, and all first drafts are terrible. Yes, all of them. Writing is a process that involves six activities. Planning, research, drafting, revisiting, or sorry, revising, editing, and submitting. So it goes through planning, which is assessing the writing task and building a writing plan to accomplish it. Research is collecting, organizing, and analyzing evidence. Drafting is turning ideas and facts into words, sentences, and paragraphs. Revision is rewriting a draft to improve substance, organization, coherence, and cohesion. Editing involves rewriting, revision to make it simple, clear, and concise. And by the way, you know what? Echelon front we say language has to be simple, clear, concise. I don't know where I originally, I think. I think I just use those words. And here they're getting used again. It's nothing crazy, but I don't know if they seeped into my brain from somewhere else, they very well could have. But we always say simple, clear and concise language. And here it is. Here they say writing a revision to make it clear, simple, and concise. There you go. Submitting Includes proofreading the final draft and submitting the product. Okay, cool. So there's the process. The writing process is nonlinear. Writers go back and forth between these activities as they write and rewrite. Although frustrating at times, this laborious back and forth is necessary to transform disjointed drafts into effortless essays. Fair enough. And this is an important part. Tools, not rules. This is a guide, not a rule book. Writing is not about following rules. It's about making choices. And I just let some. Someone know this. The other day. I said there was someone that was working on something. Not an official document, not a fully creative document, but they were worried about the editors. And I said, the right. The editor is not the writer. You're the writer. You're the writer if you make a decision. This is true when you get. If you go in the publishing world and people start telling you they want, like, I think this would be better. You should definitely listen to them and try and understand their perspective. But if you. You should also balance that with the fact that it's your piece and you can't let somebody just change it. Or you can let them change some things. You literally. Oh, that's a good point. You have an open mind, but you also have to know when to say, nope, that's actually the sentence I want there. And here's why. So that's important to think about. It's. There's rules. For instance, I tend to start sentences with the word and, which is like, kind of a no, no. But I do it and you say.

[Echo Charles]

It'S kind of a no, no. Like, it's like. Because that's what I learned about the word. And starting. It's like, it's kind of a no, no.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, because it's supposed to join two different sentences or join two different ideas in one sentence. I'm going to go shopping today and then go to the gym. That's the way it's supposed to be used. So when you say, I'm going shopping today, period, and gonna go to the gym, it. You can see it has a little bit of a different meaning. Now. That's not the perfect use for it, but I'm saying, but there are times where, for me, that's exactly what I want to say, and there's a reason for it. So sometimes when I would turn in a publication, whether it was Final Spin or whether it was Warrior Kid or whatever, you know, sometimes they would say, hey, you, starting the sentence with the word and, or starting with and here. And sometimes I'd be like, yeah, that's a good point. Doesn't make sense there. But sometimes I'd say, yeah, and here's why. Because I want that to be a standalone thought. I got to do this, this and this and this period. And I was still thinking about this. You see what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So something. So you got to take these rules and you got to. You got to utilize them, but you can't. You can't be a slave to them. Sometimes you got to push back. And it explains that in here. For example, chapter six in this book advises writers to avoid hyperbole. But chapter five ignores this advice by directly, by directing writers to, quote, murder your darlings, a hyper. Hyperbolic statement urging writers to be ruthless in cutting murdering passages. Darlings that do not advance the thesis. So here they are. They're admitting. They're saying, hey, don't use hyperbole, that you shouldn't use that. And then their next chapter is murder your darlings, which is total hyperbole. So keep that in mind. Using passive voice is another writing choice. The style standard advises writers to use active voice. Yet chapter six discusses several situations in which passive voice is more effective. So you're going to have rules, and sometimes you have to break the rules when you're writing. Chapter two, plan writing is thinking on plate paper. And this is a. This is a very army activity here. Professional writing begins with a directed purpose, right? Analyze and understand the task. So this is very armyish. I got to throw this out there because it says, make a writing plan. And look, they're correct. They're correct. You should make a writing plan. You should. Day one. Monday, analyze task and begin research. Tuesday, finish research. Wednesday, write the draft. Thursday, revise and additional research and drafting. Friday, rest. Saturday, revise. Sunday, rest. Monday, edit. Tuesday, extra day. Wednesday, proofread and submit. So they break it down. And then they. That's like a short essay writing plan. And it is good. It is good. If you don't have a plan, nothing's ever going to get done. So if you are going to write something, come up with a plan, come up with a timeline. When is it going to be due? All those things. You've heard me a thousand times. If you want to write something, you want to write a book, you want to write a screenplay. Thousand words a day. That's what you got to do. That's my plan. I'm gonna write a thousand words a day after I figure out kind of the story and the arc of the story. And then it becomes very easy to write. A thousand words a day. Chapter three, research. And there's a whole thing. It's like this is really like professional, like fully professional writing. You know, research and keeping track of sources and two column research, note format and citation software. So there's a bunch of stuff in here. I'm not going to go over arguments. It does get into arguments here. Writers gather evidence to support arguments. Arguments are claims supported by evidence and reasoning. Naturally, arguments are central to argumentative essays, but they are also important in most professional military writing. For example, the running estimates army staff officers build during planning require strong arguments. Staff officers gather evidence such as facts and assumptions about friendly forces, the enemy, civilians and the environment. They analyze this information and recommend courses of action to the commander. These recommendations are claims we should do X. The staff officers must support with evidence from the running estimate for these reasons, etc. So what's good about this is, look, if you're writing a book, it's different. But if you're writing a proposal to your marketing chief, your chief marketing officer, and you want a certain amount of money, well, you've got to make an argument of why you should get this money. So this is a very good protocol to follow. Arguments are back to the book. Arguments are found. Arguments are everywhere in professional writing. Point papers, white papers, decision papers, even an award recommendation is an argument that someone should receive an award for certain achievements. There's your claim as the award and the achievements are the evidence. So even when you're writing awards, you've got to be doing this. And then there goes into bias here. And it says, I'm fast forwarding. I'm not reading this whole book, but fast forward bias. Bias is any deviation from the truth, intentional or unintentional, that leads to false conclusions. And it goes through some of them. Confirmation bias means collecting and interpreting evidence in a way that confirms the author's predetermined conclusion. It involves gathering evidence to support a conclusion while avoiding downplaying or being unfairly skeptical of disconfirming evidence. Distorting the facts means using exaggerated or imprecise language to make information seem more or less extreme than it is. For example, everyone knows Douglas MacArthur was a terrible leader. Everyone is an exaggeration. And terrible is imprecise. What's cool, what is awesome about this book is all the examples in the book are military examples. So it's, it's like, I love that part of it actually. Mis. Misrepresenting sources means paraphrasing or summarizing information incompletely or misleadingly. This bias often occurs when authors distort the original author's intent by quoting a source out of context. Inflammatory bias occurs when writers use language that elicits an unfair emotional response. For example, labeling the irregular soldier of the American Revolution as patriots or terrorists could elicit emotions that lead a reader to biased conclusions. And then it just talks about how to avoid some of these biases. You know, use credible resources and sources. Focus on facts, not an opinion. Here's a good one, though. Keep an open mind. Having a preliminary guess hypothesis about a topic is normal, but do not commit to a position before doing at least some research. Read broadly. Study the range of views on a topic. Avoid gathering evidence only from sources that agree with the preliminary hypothesis. Be willing to change your position. During research, writers sometimes discover that the evidence for their initial position is weak. If so, they must modify or reject weakly supported claims. So it's very interesting and important that you go into your theory, your hypothesis with an open mind. And you don't just try and bolster your own opinion, which is a freaking bad move. But this is like, there's so much press. Like you can read any. You know, go to the right wing media or the left wing media. You can see this stuff all, all day. See those headlines that they produce, you know, and it's like one of them is, Elon Musk and Doge save Trillions of Dollars. And the other headline is Elon Musk and Doge cut hundreds, thousands of jobs. Like, there you go. Yeah, we're just, we're us in the game. In the game.

[Echo Charles]

That inflammatory bias, I never heard of that, but I've heard of that. Obviously, that even that. Now that we understand this, I think you see it pretty much everywhere.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, of course.

[Echo Charles]

Pretty much. Like even in headlines. Inflammatory, you know, leaving hundreds jobless.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

See what I'm saying? It's like, dang, bro. Interesting. Gotta keep your eyes open for that kind of stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

Chapter four draft. When you first start writing, you're scared to death that if you don't get that sentence right that minute, it's never going to show up again. And it isn't, but it doesn't matter. Another one will and it'll probably be better. And I don't mind writing badly for a couple days because I know I can fix it and fix it again and again and again and again. It'll be better. That's from Tony Morrison. This is a very, very critical thing to understand. We'll get into it. Drafting is turning ideas and research into words, sentences, or paragraphs. The Goal of drafting is to quickly write the bulk of the essay without stopping to fix style and correction problem or correctness problems. Drafting focuses on quantity, not quality. So this is what I call making the clay. For me to use that term before making the clay. So what if you're a sculptor? You go to the. The art store. If you're gonna make a clay pot, sure. You go to the art store and you buy the clay, and then you take that and you form it into the pot, right? Sure. With writing, you have to make the clay yourself, and that is just getting the words on paper, and then you take them and shape them. This is. I'm good at making clay. Leif. He's, like, constantly going back and rewriting a sentence that he just wrote. Like, I'll write 20 pages and not change one single thing and then go back and edit it. Leif will be like, one sentence, and he'll go back and edit it. You know, that's just the way his mind works. Fast drafting is tough. Many writers cannot resist reason, revising and editing as they draft. Leif. Babin. My brother Leif. But this slows writing and wastes effort, as we see in chapter five. First drafts often require significant cuts. Rewriting while drafting risks wasting time improving passages that may end up being cut during revision. And that is crazy. I do remember Leif and I were doing, like, some of the final edits on Extreme Ownership, and we were just xing out whole paragraphs, you know, like half a page gone. Because it'd be some weird, like, little offshoot of a story. And we're like, does that really add, like. Nope.

[Echo Charles]

X. Yeah. Yeah. You. You ever come across those deleted scenes from movies, right? And, you know, they're always fun to watch, but some of them, you're like, bro, I can't believe they filmed this whole thing. This whole thing, you know, it took, like, more than a day of shooting.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, for sure, sure. I'm currently living through that.

[Echo Charles]

There you go. But it's always surpri. Well, not always, but it's a lot of times surprising how much they just did not include. And. Yeah, a lot of time. Well, in my experience, a lot of time it's for that reason of. Hey, it's. It's not necessary.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. And it's way better to just throw the right to write it in there. Just like when you're shooting a film. Here I am, Mr. Film Guy. But, like, when you're shooting a film, you want to get as many different versions and many different takes as you.

[Echo Charles]

Can Totally makes sense.

[Jocko Willink]

And so that way you go day of like, well, hey, we might as well shoot it. Let's get. Hey, let's get. You know, get him spitting the drink out when he's done. Oh, that might be too much. Get him just making a grimace face. Get him turning around and you know, spitting it out all over the floor. That's. You get them all.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so when you're writing, you'll kind of do that. You kind of like throw these little variations in there. Cuz you want to have those options.

[Echo Charles]

Better to have it and not need it. Oh, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

The other crazy. It hurts though.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

Both of them like X. Now some of those things and edits in, in. In my books where I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's right. It doesn't really make sense. And definitely, I mean, I've seen some warrior kid stuff. Go to the cutting room floor, as they call it, and you go, gosh, that's such a cool little moment, you know? Really, really. And then, and then you look at it and you go for the good of the entire, the entire holistic view. They're right, I'm right or they're right or I'm wrong or whatever.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because. And it's really difficult because, you know, a movie's an hour and a half, two hours long and you might not recognize like, oh, I didn't really realize I was kind of pulled off track. And this, this story didn't, you know, I got to learn something. But it didn't get. It didn't deliver me anything in the end. Like, I make a movie about Echo and at one point I'm like, and here's Echo, you know, pouring some Lucky Charms and he's sitting watching tv. Well, it's cool that I know that. And you're. Maybe you're doing funny stuff, picking the marshmallows. Like there's a bunch of funny things that can happen there, but it doesn't add to our story.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so therefore gotta go. And that might have been some of your, some of your best acting bro could have been there.

[Echo Charles]

So there is this, what, reading some book. I can't remember what book it is. It's about this, the creative process. Anyway, the idea here, and this is what they called it fetishizing techniques. So in. And this pretty much any creative thing where like, like writing, for example, if you, if you like to use certain words. I just love this word.

[Jocko Willink]

Right.

[Echo Charles]

And you made this sentence that was like, dang. That sentence really came out really Good, Right? But it didn't, you know, it didn't make the cutting room floor or whatever. It didn't add to the story. We'll say it was unnecessary. But you go to bat for that sentence to keep it in because you fetishized your technique where it's like, okay, so in video making, me and Carrie will laugh about this. I usually. I. I used to use lens flares, right? Like artificial lens first, make it look more dramatic. I freaking love the technique, you know, nowadays a little bit less. But at the time, I love the technique that's fetishizing the techniques to put lenses, flares on something that does not need lens flares, you know. But since I love lens flares, I'm fetishizing it and, you know, freaking going out of my way to include it and keep it in there. But I ruin the overall work in a way. You know, you run that r. Oh, I know what it was.

[Jocko Willink]

The book.

[Echo Charles]

You know, the 48 laws of power guy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Green, green, green. Yeah. He has a book called Mastery. I'm pretty sure that's where it's from. Don't watch out for fetishizing techniques.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it.

[Echo Charles]

So it's like just like how you said, like, if I pouring the Lucky Charms. And maybe I liked the way the light shined off my head or something like this. And I really thought the way I delivered that line or whatever was really good. Oh, man, I really need that. I'm fetishizing my technique right there, you know? But it doesn't add to the story.

[Jocko Willink]

It can hurt, man. It can hurt in the writing realm. It can hurt now again, I mean, like the movie realm. You're like, God, that's such a good spot. But I kind of get it. I understand kind of get it. There's some things that you could do this in writing. You can do this, and you can do this when you speak. So when you make a point, when you speak and your point is made, be quiet. Now, I could say that, and I could say, when your point. When you make a point and you speak, be quiet. Because then that moment of when you walk quiet will let thing. Thing. See, I just did it. I just kept talking when I didn't need to keep talking.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you got to be careful that. Well, that can happen in writing where you like adding too many things in, where that point that you want to make is now diminished. And same things in film. It's like, oh, this was cool. This was a cool, like 8 to 10. This was a 5. This was a 6. This was a 7. And those are all really good. And. And then I got the nine at the end. Well, it's better just to go, 002019.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Boom. You see what I'm saying, bro?

[Echo Charles]

That's even with, like, regular conversation. That's what. So probably I used to do this thing. I don't know if I feel like this is an example of that. It's just so small and subtle, but it's there. So let's say me and you are watching a movie. We're little kids, right? We're watching a movie. You come in halfway through the movie or whatever. I'm following the movie. I'm tracking it hardcore. And you're like, oh, what happened? Who's this? And. And you're like, oh, this guy is about to go on this trip with this guy. But this guy, the actual killer, the guy with the red. Listen, say there's four guys in the scene. The guy with the red shirt, the guy with the blonde. See, right there, you know? And I'd be like, okay, you already know. The guy with a red shirt, you already know. But I want to over. Like, I want to make sure that you got it. You got my point. So I overstated. I over. Explain it over everything. But, Brad, you get in the way of your own. Your own mission. You see what I'm saying? When you do that kind of stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep, yep. You got to. There's. It's also when you hit something too much on the head.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I think I heard Rogan, Joe Rogan talking about this. Like, if you're doing comedy. If I give the punchline too early, it doesn't work because. Because you haven't even. If I'm telling you a joke and I give you the punchline too early, you haven't even computed what's happening. So if I give it too early, it doesn't work. If I give it too late, you already figured out the punchline in your own head, and it's not. It's not there. So I need to get you to a point where you're thinking, what could the punchline be? But you don't quite know. You've. You've put the calculus together to figure out that there's going to be an answer and you understand the question. You don't know what the answer is. If I give it. If I give you the answer too quick, you don't even know what the question was. Yeah, if I give you the answer too late, you figured it out for yourself. So that's the kind of thing you got to pay attention to. And it's the same thing when you're trying to make a point with your writing. If you hint at something nine times, well, they already figured out. Now it's a foregone conclusion.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If you don't. If you come out of left field with your principle or your point, then it's like, wait, what is this in reference to? So you gotta land it. Yeah, you gotta land it. That's what we're doing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That's crazy how that small subtlety can make the difference between someone who's, like, good and. Yeah. Comedy is like that one feels like it. It hits so hard when it's done right and wrong because it's like they really have to invoke certain emotions or whatever, but. But it goes for anything. But it's crazy how just that little. Literally, like not even half a second.

[Jocko Willink]

Not even half.

[Echo Charles]

Not even. And all it is timing. Forget the tone, which is part of it too, of course. But just, let's say just the timing alone, half a second can be. Literally be the difference of something being good versus straight up.

[Jocko Willink]

Jump. Yep. Like, I missed it. I missed it, missed it. Or I already knew that. And so it's not funny. Obviously, that's the answer. You know, why did the chicken cross the road? You know, like, you need to understand what that is before to get to the other side of whatever the punchline is. So it's very. That's the way all this stuff is. You want to have people to have some indication of it in their brain, but not have the solidified answer. They gotta have. They gotta understand the question, know that there's an answer, not quite sure what it is, and then give it to them.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If you wait till they already figured out it's not funny or it's not good, it's not a good point.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's what we're doing. That's. You know, movies where it all comes to, like, the Sixth Sense, where it all comes together in the end and you go, oh, damn.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, like the twist, you mean?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, the twist. And same thing with. With Fight Club. Fight Club. Right. That's all like, oh, you're. You're with the whole story, but then you. Oh, it all makes sense in the end.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Imagine if, like, you could go too long with that, where it's like, oh. Or you could be too. The two things could be so far separated that you're like, wait a second. Oh, you're trying to say that that was all fake. Like you got to land it.

[Echo Charles]

Perfect example right there. Yeah. You got. And you got to hint at it.

[Jocko Willink]

Got a hint.

[Echo Charles]

You can't get away. Yeah, exactly. Right. Because if you don't. Hidden at all. Yeah. It just, like I said, it comes out left field and it doesn't make sense and you're kind of insulted in a way, you know, so it's like just that subtle.

[Jocko Willink]

You ever seen one of those mystery movies where you're like the killer? It, it's, it's like, well, you never could have figured that out, right? That's a crap mystery. And the other end of the mystery movie is like, you know who did it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's got to be right there. It's got to be right there in the middle. Check. Do not try to write a perfect first draft or even a good one. All first drafts are ugly. Do not try and make them. Otherwise draft fast. Then this thing goes into this whole like formatting deal, which I'm not even going to get into. Structure, introduction, main body, conclusion. It goes through a bunch of this stuff because it's talking about writing army manuals and whatnot, which is cool. Chapter 5 is revise. When a draft is completed, the job of writing can begin. This is similar to Tim Ferriss and he, he told me this and then he's like, said it a bunch. But he says, oh yeah, when you're done writing your book, you're halfway there. Which is probably an underestimate. Right? You're pro or an overestimate. You're probably not even have. Like when done with your first draft, you're about, you're probably not even halfway there. I will say though, as I've written more books, I'm way closer. Like extreme ownership wasn't even halfway there. It's probably 30% there. Leadership strategy and tactics was probably 70% there. Way of the Warrior Kid 5 was like, pretty good.

[Echo Charles]

Makes sense.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, because you get better at it. Fast forward a little bit. Revising means re seeing writing to ensure it says what the writer intends. Paper level revision improves the essay substance and organization. Paragraph level revisions improves paragraphs. Think about when you're going to a meeting and you've thought through and you've written down and you've, you've said something to yourself and then you go, I could say that a little bit better. And you dial all that in and then you go into the meeting, you're gonna be so much better off. And that's what this is. Writing is thinking. Writing is not the product of thinking, it is thinking. Drafting helps writers discovered what they know about a topic. Revising often reveals that they know less than they need to. Arguments that seem strong during drafting may appear less so when revisited. This process of thinking on paper prompts writers to do more research and drafting. I've had people say, either they were writing me a question, right? I was gonna write you an email, but then I figured out the answer. They'll say, like, they'll. Someone will be asking me a question, and as they're asking me a question, they already know the answer.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's true.

[Jocko Willink]

And they're like, I know what you're gonna say. It's like, yeah, I'll say, good. No, but that, that happens. And that's what writing does for you.

[Echo Charles]

It totally does also too. And I don't know if you're gonna say this or not, so forgive me if I spoiler, but give away the punchline. Yeah, well, so you say writing is thinking. So you know how like, okay, we gotta write little scripts, you know, for, I don't know, Jocko Fuel video or something, you know, whatever, where you could start. And they say this with like any kind of process strategies, you know, your writing process. You know, some people, they say, ace, just start with the end. You know, these are all process strategies where you could go on. And they say when you're staring at the blank paper is the most frightening part of writing or whatever, staring at the. So they, they say, just start, just write something, right? For this reason, because writing is thinking. It's like if you're sitting in the blank paper, it makes sense that it's like, well, you're not doing much thinking right now. You're trying for sure, you know, but you're going to do a lot more thinking if you actually. Sorry. So. And if you notice whether this happens every single time, or sometimes to me, pretty much every time, if you just start writing something. First word. That comes to mind when you think about whatever you're trying to write.

[Jocko Willink]

First word.

[Echo Charles]

Just write the first word. First sentence. You'd be surprised how many more sentences follow. So I'm good, some bad. But it's part of that, the actual thinking process. You know what I'm saying? The first line and the last line you write, there was no plan right there. You. You thought of one word and then you start. You. You sort of thought your way through it, essentially just through writing. It is.

[Jocko Willink]

There's some people on. On Twitter, X sure that like when I post in the morning, whatever I Post.

[Echo Charles]

They.

[Jocko Willink]

They'll write jocko prompts, and they'll, like, write some kind of write about whatever. You know, if I said, get up and get after it. And they'll be like, get up, do it again. You know, they'll like, write these little things kind of. It's kind of like the same thing you're talking about a little additional on the whole thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, but to your point, once you start writing, it will flow, for lack of a better word.

[Echo Charles]

Yes. So much like basically, that first line. Line we'll say, provokes more thought, which provokes more lines, which provokes more thought.

[Jocko Willink]

It's sort of like when we talk about, hey, if you don't know what you're doing, start walking. It's the same thing. Like, if you don't know what to write, start writing and you'll start. At least maybe you'll figure out, like, this is a dumb sentence. I need to do a different one. Okay, cool. Do. Do a different one. No factor. It says, good writers sometimes discover in the act of writing that what looked persuasive when floating vaguely in the mind looks foolish when moored to the page. Deidre McCloskey. Which is what I say. This. This is detachment. Oh, I want to. You know, I got a good idea. Write it down. Write it down and look at it. I'm not sure how we could overcome this. Okay. Write it down and look at it. That is detachment. It will. You will see it more clearly. There's a weird thing when you're in SEAL teams. You come up with, you got to go attack a target, and you come up with a plan. Like, a really rough plan. You can't. You have to actually start planning before you figure out if it's gonna work or not. Like, at some point, you go, like, hey, I think we should hit it from the north. You go, okay, cool. Like, let's start that planning. You. You. You have to start the planning to see if it's gonna work or not. And that's the same thing, what you were just talking about. Like, I have an idea. I have to start writing to see if it's a good idea or not. I have to start because you might want to attack from the north. Okay, cool. Go start the planning. Hey, we started the planning. We looked at the terrain. It turns out there's a big cliff we won't be able to get up and over. Okay, cool. Well, now we know that. So it gives us three choices, you know, southeast, west. Well, let's go look at those. But you have to start the planning. You have to start bringing some granularity to the picture before you know if it's going to be functional or not. So very good writing is a form of detachment that is extremely helpful. Next thing, to revise a paper, reread it to answer these questions. Does the paper achieve its purpose? Does it answer the questions? Does the introduction, discuss the topic, state the thesis? This is very technical. Is the thesis statement clear? Does each major section in the paragraph in the main body build? So this is sort of just a way to revise these more technical papers, professional papers. I should have used that. I like that word technical. And then it's got a quote here. The very, the essence of writing is rewriting. Very few writers say on their first try exactly what they want to say. It's like, yep, ain't that the truth? And here's the murder your darlings piece. Paper level revision often reveals passages that do not advance the thesis. That's a good way of saying what we were talking about. Does not advance the thesis, doesn't advance the plot, doesn't show us anything more about the character. And by the way, if I show, like, if I want to show Echo Charles as being an OCD type person, and I show him, like, organizing his silverware and then organizing his plates, and then the next scene I show him organizing his toothbrush and his. It's like at a certain point we already know the thing. So is it adding? No, remove them. Or as experienced writers say, murder your darlings, as this dramatic metaphor implies. Remove. Removing unnecessary passages is often painful. Writing is hard work. Throwing away some of that work can feel like killing something loved. But removing excess is essential to produce clear, concise writing. Good writers are ruthless editors. Pretty cool. When you write a story, you're telling yourself the story. When you rewrite, your main job is taking out all the things that are not the story. And that is Stephen King. And it's got this meal model, this meal model here, meal is a model for organizing paragraphs. Meal stands for main idea, evidence and analysis. And link back to the larger claim. I know I circled this for a reason. It says the topic sentence states the paragraph's main ideas. The middle sentence discuss the evidence and the analysis that support the main idea. The last sentence links the paragraph to the main idea of the paragraph, section or paper. Not bad. I don't know why I got hyped on that. Usually I have some, like, good reason. I don't know why that thing hyped me. Or I make a note If I think I'm gonna forget it. Next one, Chapter six, Fast forward Clutter is the disease of American writing. Williams insert. And again, I've used Williams insert quote a few times. He wrote this book called On Writing well, which is kind of. Kind of, you know, the kind of a very good standard. Let's kind of. If you want to learn how to write, get on right. Writing well by Zinser. So that's why he's quoted in here a bunch writing standards to focus on when editing. First part is style. Write clearly so the text is easy to read and understand. Prefer clear, concise sentences. Prefer simple words and omit unnecessary words. Prefer active voice. Maintain a professional tone. Formal but conversational and confident. So what's interesting to note here is it says, prefer clear, concise languages. Prefer simple words. So you might. You got to lean towards those, have a bias towards those. But you might have to go with the other methodology sometimes correctness. Use conventional punctuation. Spelling and grammar. Cite all sources and format citations correctly. Yeah, you got to use the proper stuff. Proper. I took a class in college called Advanced Grammar and Syntax. What's crazy is like, English is the wildest, dumbest language. Like, there's things in English that make no sense whatsoever. You know, like it's just. You just rules that. Rules that apply 92% of the time.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And then it's just out of left field with some. Just look at our dumb spellings we have in English. They make no sense.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And there's. Man, I come across these, like, explanations for all this, and I think it has to do with. Because English is a mix.

[Jocko Willink]

No, there's always a reason for it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, but at the end they'll make it okay. There's this comedian back in the day, 80s, 70s, maybe Gallagher was his name.

[Jocko Willink]

Smash watermelons. Yeah. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But he did some very insightful, you know, monologues and stuff like that sometimes. And so one time he went over English.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

And he was like, I was in school. Or something along the lines. I was in school and they're telling me to take. Take my class seriously. But why would I take this class seriously when it doesn't take me seriously or something like that. Right. Then he goes and he does a little diagram where it's like, okay, what is it? It was like womb, tomb, some num. All these words that rhyme with each other and. Or are spelled like each other, but just change the first and it becomes a whole different word and sound different or whatever. And it's like. But, man, I remember as a little kid, I was like, yeah, bro. Why is that? It'd be way more simple if it was more cohesive or whatever. But, man, it gets. And it. It goes deep, too.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. At some point, hopefully, these things will evolve.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But the reason that English is like that is one of the things that makes English so widely used is that it is very adaptive. But, you know, just like democracy, you know, you got. You got outliers that, like, make it. It's not perfect.

[Echo Charles]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

It's not always pretty. You know, like, you're gonna get some. Get some wild things going on.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, you know the word write. I'm sitting here looking at my notes. I'm like, write. Well, there's W, R, I, T, E, and then there's write, R, I, G, H, T, and then there's R, I, T, E. Three words all spelled different. All mean random, different things.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That.

[Jocko Willink]

Like a rite of passage.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Or I have the right to do this, or I'm gonna write this down. Like this one example off the top of my notes right here. That is all jacked up.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah. Then you go. You have live and live, which kind of the same thing, but they're different. They're spelled the exact same way. So now you got. You can't just read the word. You got to read the sentence to even know what the word means. Like, bruh.

[Jocko Willink]

It kind of gets lead and lead.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And lead, read and read.

[Jocko Willink]

And yes. Freaking gets crazy.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So it comes to the point where you basically just got to memorize stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Some of it. You just got to. You just got to memorize.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But that's why also, English is like. There's leeway in English. Like, I'll do it that way if I want to. Hey, I went to war for the word Jiu Jitsu. The way that we spell Jiu Jitsu. J, I, U, hyphen, J, I, T, S, U. That was not the accepted way. I think it might. It was my editors, like, we can't. No, this is wrong. Here's this. Here's the Oxford English Dictionary. Here's the Japanese talk, blah, blah. Everyone's like, no, but the way we spell it. Us modern Jiu Jitsu players. The way we spell it. They would. They were like, I had to go to war to spell Jiu Jitsu the way we spell Jiu Jitsu.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And I won.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I. It'll be interesting to see in a few years if that becomes the. The way that we. Everyone spells Jiu Jitsu.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, cuz it's cuz tech. I guess even on a technical level, it's. It's a different thing. That's why. Right. Than the like Japanese jujitsu, whatever it is.

[Jocko Willink]

But it isn't.

[Echo Charles]

Right. But at the end of the day.

[Jocko Willink]

But it isn't either.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, so look, I guess this, this will kind of be reduced to a philosophical argument.

[Jocko Willink]

Fair enough.

[Echo Charles]

But it was Shanji Hibiro who is explaining this where, yeah, there was an original way, just like there was an original actual Jiu Jitsu. But things basically between then and now, things change. And the spelling is just one of those things and therefore these reasons and all this stuff. So it's like, yeah, you can stick to the original way in whatever way you want, and at the end of the day you can change and do this or whatever. But hey, this is like the general. Understood.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

Thing.

[Jocko Willink]

I should have the notes because they weren't just telling. They were giving me multiple different options. Like, well, J U J. They give me that option. They gave me a bunch of options. None of them were the way that we spell it right now.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And so had to hold the, hold the line on that one.

[Echo Charles]

Well, they. I guess the question would at the end of the day be what is the thing that we are doing when we say. When we say Jiu Jitsu? That came from Helen Carlos. How were they spelling it when they were like, hey, UFC 1, 1993, Denver, Colorado. This guy does karate. This guy does ninjutsu. This guy hoist. Gracie does Gracie Jiu Jitsu. How is that one spelled? Yeah, that's how we're spelling it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's how I spelled it.

[Echo Charles]

Otherwise we're doing something else.

[Jocko Willink]

That's like when these people try to tell me how to tie my belt. You know, I tie my belt the way Hicks and Gracie told me how to tell my belt. Roger that. That's what I'm doing.

[Echo Charles]

There you go.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, little quote here. The first duty in writing a sentence is to make it clear. Once Again, that's Deidre McCloskey. Here's a couple. Clear writing. They give a couple examples. Vague versus concrete. Ridgeways leadership impacted the 8th Army. It's kind of vague, right? Here's the concrete version. Ridgeway improved the 8th Army's fighting spirit much more. Concrete. Vague. Napoleon had a lot of leadership experience. Concrete. Napoleon had 10 years of leadership experience. Vague. The S4 is working the fuel problem. Concrete. The S4 ordered extra deliveries to fix the fuel problem. So just things to think about. And Again, well, reading these things aloud, you can. You can almost immediately see the differences. Cliche. Finding the enemy is like finding a needle in the haystack. Concrete. Finding the enemy is difficult. Cliche. She thinks outside the box. Concrete. She thinks creatively. I think outside the box is used so much right now that creatively is a better way of saying it. Hyperbole. The battalion commander wanted to kill them. Concrete. The battalion commander was angry. Hyperbole. Ridgeway was the epitome of military leadership. Concrete. Ridgeway was an effective leader. Now, look, there's gonna be times when either one of those is gonna work. One working better than the other. Then there's a section on active and passive voice, which is something that you learn in English, which you should pay attention to. Passive voice. The high ground was occupied. Was occupied by the battalion and the attack was defeated. As opposed to active voice, which is preferred in most cases. The battalion occupied the high ground and defeated the attack. Here's a simpler version. Passive voice. The operation was planned by Patton. Active voice. Patton planned the operation. See how those two work? And you see the superiority of it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So we always try and use active voice as much as we possibly can, unless there's a reason, and then it's got a bunch of, like, complex words versus simple words. Assistance versus help. Numerous versus many. Initial versus first. Sufficient versus enough. Attempt versus try. Utilize versus use. Expedite versus hurry. Erroneous versus wrong. Cognizant versus aware. So sometimes does it make sense to use a word that is more specific and really lands perfectly? Yeah, absolutely. But sometimes the word, the simplest straightforward word is the word that you want to go with. Here's a wordy version. Wordy versus versus wordy version versus concise version. Eisenhower took an opportunity to conduct a rapid assessment of the problem that he was facing. Concise Eisenhower assessed the problem. Wordy. CODA failed to demonstrate an ability as the commander to understand the operational environment he was operating in. Concise Coda did not understand the operational environment so much better.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, sometimes.

[Jocko Willink]

Sometimes. Yes, sometimes. If you're bringing more perspective, detailed nuance to a statement, that's important. Absolutely, absolutely. But there's a reason that you kind of tracked on that one. CODA failed to demonstrate an ability as a commander to understand the operational environment he was operating in. That's a lot, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully.

[Jocko Willink]

Coda did not understand the operational environment that is just, boom, Straightforward.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I think you're right at the end of the day, and I'm basically checking my bias right now because I do like. Like the Comedy elements of things. So in a lot of cases. So you know how you can downplay stuff and you can, like, up play stuff, you know? So basically you can use a wordy version to downplay something and you use a less. What is it? Concise version to upplay stuff. So. Okay. Leif Babin, our friend, we love him. He said. He says when he's talking about buds, when he's talking about training, we're talking about training. And he was like, I'm not. He's like, I'm talking about advanced training. I'm not talking about buds. Buds is just a screening process to screen out the people who we don't think have the characteristics to be successful on the battlefield. That's how he put it. It's a wordy version. Right. And you even said it. I don't know. When you. I forget. When you said. You were like, yeah, basically to weed out the pussies. That's what you said. That's the concise version. See what I'm saying? But the reason that I found that, like, funny is because when you think about. Yeah, but just emotionally, I think when you say weed out the pussy, that's kind of how it feels. You know, buds is hard. It's hardcore. You got to be tough. You got to be kind of hardcore. And when you make it through your badass. Right. That's kind of the feeling of buds anyway. Just the feeling. I'm saying the words. The feeling. So when you say it in that way, wordy, like, it just simply screens out the individuals we don't think have the characteristics of being successful in the battlefield. It's kind of like you downplay the badassness and just really reduce it to this really technical kind of thing. It's funny.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, because. Okay, I get it. Yeah. Because it is funny because it's also like when you say when someone's like, oh, yeah, we had an enemy fighter that was moving down the street towards our position, and we interdicted him and. And eliminated the threat.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

As opposed. As opposed to, like, oh, he smoked that for.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

So both. Exactly both those things. Have a moment where. Yes, that's the correct version to use for the correct response that you're looking to get for the message that you're trying to convey. Yeah, they. They both can be correct depending on the time that they're delivered. 1. There's one time where they would be totally incorrect to be like, we smoked him or we weeded out the. Like, there's times where that's Just not the thing to say. Just like there's times where that long, arduous, technical version would be the not thing to say.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's the way it works. We got to. We got to choose. That's why, that's why this is only a guide.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because you got to know your audience. You got to know the message that you're trying to convey.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Fast forward a little bit here. So avoid nominalizations. Nominalizations are nouns created from other parts of speech, such as adjectives. Quick becomes quickness, other nouns, favorite becomes favoritism. And verbs. Prepare becomes preparation. Nominalizations clutter writing because they require writers to add a verb to make sentences work. So and they just. This is to me is just the, the interesting thing about the English language. The nominalization. Conduct an attack. You could just say attack. Nominalization, conduct a defense or defend. Make preparations. Prepare. Dude.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Make a decision. Decide, take action. Act. Give a response. Respond. Bring to an end. End. Hold a meeting, meet. Make a recommendation. Recommend. Take into consideration. Consider. Have the ability. Can so very smart to do that. And almost done with this. But the final chapters submit and I'll close this out here because this is probably. This is kind of what I wanted to get to Proofreading. Proofreading for errors is the last step before submitting. Techniques for effective proofreading include. And these are the important things to think about. Let the paper rest for a day or two after the final edit. What does that mean in to us? It means if you're about to send a text, freaking write the text in your notes so you don't accidentally hit the send button, come back to it an hour later and reread it. Email. Same thing. You got to write an email to someone. Like that's. That's a meaningful email. Write it without putting the address. I was with someone the other day and they, they were like going to start making edits and they removed the address of that way they didn't actually hit send. It's problematic. So don't put the address in there. Write the email. And depending on how much time you have, an hour, two hours, next day you can read that thing with a fresh mind. So important to do that. Next one. Read the paper aloud to hear errors. Very smart. This is for me, this is the best. The first step to take. And it makes a huge difference. When I brought my warrant officers and master chiefs in and was like, okay, put up the evaluation. I'm going to read your first sentence aloud. As soon as I did that, everyone's. Everyone probably improved 50, right. Then just by going and doing that. Because things sound good or bad when you read them aloud.

[Echo Charles]

And okay, yeah, I guess this is kind of a side note, but still, I think relevant where you. You got to be responsible with reading that kind of stuff though, too, though, in this way. So you ever watch Fight Club?

[Jocko Willink]

Yes.

[Echo Charles]

We all love Fight Club. So the famous line in Fight Club is, first rule of Fight Club, you do not talk about Fight Club. When Tyler Durden says, it sounds dope. Always has, always will. We're gonna love it. There's a part in Fight Club where Ed Norton is at work and his boss finds a copy of the rules of Fight Club in like the printer or whatever. Right? He finds it and he comes in his office super irritated with the. With the guy, Ed Norton, and he goes, the first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is this yours. So he read it in that tone to make it sound stupid. See, I'm saying, so you got to be responsible with this kind of stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. And you. You have to proactively do that. So if I'm writing. If I'm writing you. Echo Charles, an email that I know is about a sensitive topic, something that you're very. You're very emotional about. I got to read it like that. I got to read it in a negative way. Cuz. And actually I know Jamie does this at the, at the assembly. They have a couple emails and they'll read them in two different tones. And where that came from was Jamie called me and she was like, tell me about this client wrote this email. And she's like, listen to this email. And she was pissed, right? And I go, okay. I go, let me read it. And it was totally different because when I say, hey, Echo, I wanted to ask you a question. Okay, Echo, I want to ask you a question. You see what I'm saying? Like, it's totally different just in. Just in the tone. So you're right. You have to pay attention to how that thing is going to sound. And you have to read it from the worst case scenario. Read it that Echo Charles is looking to be mad at me. So it doesn't say, hey, Echo, I wanted to ask you a question. It says, hey, Echo, I want to ask you a question. Totally different things. So you're right. You have to read things aloud. And, and so you'll get. Some of it will just be the comprehension of it. It. But the tone will definitely start to come out if you do it properly. And this one is a little bit more for the way that you've written it. It's read the paper one sentence at a time from end to beginning. This technique focuses the writer on one sentence at a time rather than big ideas. So if you really want to, this is. If you're really trying to clean up a document, you read one sentence at the time from the end of it, read it backwards, because it makes you. It makes you really focus on each actual individual sentence. The next one, ask a friend or someone else, preferably someone who is not familiar with the subject, to read it and give feedback. That's good. And I'd say you absolutely. If you have a document that's important, you have to have someone else read it at a minimum. You got to give yourself time away from that document. And there's. You reach a certain point. If you've edited something 50 times, like your 51st is worthless. I don't know that I should try and come up with a realistic number. And it's probably different for different people. Like, I've worked with editors before. Like professional editors, bro, they're. They're psycho because they can edit something 500 times and still be like, notice something that's wrong. Like, I remember we on extreme ownership, there was a, there was a really late version, like post publisher editors, where like leadership or something was spelled wrong. We're like, damn, dude, that's scary. Yeah, that's scary. So give yourself time away from it so it becomes fresh in your mind again. And that's. But it's. But also having someone that hasn't seen it yet is a very powerful way to do it and get things cleaned up as much as you can before you give it to someone else. Because otherwise, you know, I talk about mowing grass. So if you have like a field, you look out the field, it all looks like, let's call it five inch grass. It's overgrown, right? You don't see that there's rocks and sticks. You don't even see them. So you got to get out there and get it down to three inches. Now you can go out and remove some sticks. Once you got the sticks out of there, now you can get. You can start to really do good editing. So for the courtesy of the person that's going to be reading it, get, get it mowed down to a point that you've gotten the big sticks out of there. You don't want them hitting rocks and stuff on their mower. You know, it's. It's not cool because then they're not going to see the, the smaller errors that are in there.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, that and even that, that whole. It's like sleeping on it or whatever, like detaching yourself from it for a little bit to re. Introduce yourself to it, to see it with fresh eyes. It feels like all of this actually in one way or another applies to most creative like work when you have probably accurate the. So every once in a while you will find out or we'll realize that if you have something that isn't quite working right, let's say it's like, it's like not per. This could be better, this one little sentence in a book or whatever. But you're so tunnel vision from reading it over and over and over and writing and reading, reading over and over. You start before you correct it. I mean, you start, your brain almost subconsciously starts to slowly accept it as being like correct or just fine or part of the thing because you're just so used to it, you know. So now when you watch it, it doesn't stick out as hardcore as a big mistake. Because just because you're just used to it, you're used to it. You're not like you haven't accepted it on, on a creative level, you've accepted it on more, more of a routine level. You see, I'm saying. So then, yeah, when you, when you abandon it for a little bit, then come back, it'll start to stick up more, you know, if it's incorrect.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And then the last one, it just talks about software aids, which I haven't used Grammarly, Hemingway Editor, the Writer's Diet, Microsoft. I haven't used any of these. And now you, of course, now you've got Chat GPT and the other grok, which is Twitter's or X's AI. So you got other tools that can do this stuff now, which I haven't used. Those I've used, I've put stuff into. Like when I, when I edit on, I use Microsoft. They, they're giving you grammar, subject suggestions. You can get one thing that's kind of cool you can do with Chat GPT or some of these other ones is let's say you've got, you know, you've got a thesaurus that will give you another word for a word. But if you've got a phrase, you know, I'm getting nickel and dimed over here, right. What's another way of saying that you can go into Chat GPT and say, what's another way of saying nickels and dime? So There are some. It's almost like a sentence. The source.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That you can use. So those. Those can be good, but those are other ways to proofread. And there you go. That's what I got. Then the rest of this thing is like a bunch of sections on, like, fonts, which is funny for the military because the military makes fun of the fact that, like, you use the wrong font on this slide. Like, that's for real formatting, citations, bibliography, usage conventions. There's a freaking professional writing rubric in here, which is how to judge work, which I thought was funny. And then finally there's just the conclusion that they say publishing, writing is an essential part of being a professional soldier. Writing connects people and ideas, and it promotes professional discourse and debate. The writing and publishing process is challenging, but rewarding. Write and publish. You might change the arm, the army. So there you go. That's it. Writing connects people. Writing connects ideas. Writing makes you smarter. Writing will help you speak better. Writing will help you think better. Writing is not easy. It is a skill that you have to learn, and you should focus on it. You should recognize it, and you should go out and you should write more. You'll get better at it. It'll make you better at everything. So there we go. That's what I got. And by the way, we can't just write and think and speak and get smarter. Those are all cognitive processes. Guess what else we're doing?

[Echo Charles]

Lay it on me.

[Jocko Willink]

Physical activities. We're training. We're spelling Jiu Jitsu. Right. And we're training Jiu Jitsu.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

And we're getting after it. So that means we're gonna need fuel. We Recommend Jocko fuel. Jockofuel.com you can get protein. You can get hydration. You can get greens. You can get energy drink. You can get pre workout. I've started trying pre workout at certain times. It is kind of fire.

[Echo Charles]

It's a wild ride.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's a wild ride. So we got that. We got joint health, joint warfare, super. We got everything that you need. You need to be healthier, stronger, smarter, better. Jockofuel.com you can get it there. You can also get it at Walmart. You can get at Wawa, Vitamin Shop, gnc, Military commissaries, A feast. Hannaford Dash Drawers down in Maryland, Wakefern, shoprite, HEB down in Texas, Meijer up in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Publix down in Florida. We got you covered. Also, Lifetime fitness shields. And then a bunch of little gyms, small gyms, all over the place. Jiu Jitsu gyms, spelled correctly. Powerlifting gyms. We got you. If you don't have it there, email jfsalesacofield.com that's what we got going on. Also. Originusa.com making everything that you need to wear. I had a suitcase the other day that was entirely packed with origin. Usa.

[Echo Charles]

All origin.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we got it all. I guess I didn't have. We have there. There are origin socks. I don't have any at this time, which is a bummer.

[Echo Charles]

That makes one of us.

[Jocko Willink]

You got origin socks?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I do.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, well we got everything that you need. Workout clothing, Jiu Jitsu clothing, rash guards, GI's, Jiu Jitsu belts. By the way, we still haven't determined what belt is going to be utilized. We're sticking with the old one right now. The new one, I don't know. We'll see. Hunt gear, rain jackets, wind jackets, jeans, obviously boots. Just everything that you need. By the way, did you get the new boots yet? Did you get a pair of Mocktos yet?

[Echo Charles]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

Game changer.

[Echo Charles]

All day.

[Jocko Willink]

All day. All day. So check it out. Origin USA.com these things are not made by slave labor. They're not made by 12 year old girls who are being abused. They're not made by people that are chained in a factory somewhere in unsafe working conditions. No, this stuff is made here in America. Made by freedom. Originusa.com check it out.

[Echo Charles]

True. Also Jocko's has a store called Jocko Store. So hey look, we're on this path. Some of us together, some of us solo. You know, it's all our own path. But if you want to represent on this path, attire wise, discipline equals freedom is where you can get your shirts, hats, hoodies, some shorts on on there as well, some socks on there, various things. Jocko store.com hey look. So you know, so I was reading this book Habit Books, like a atomic habits. So one of the premises in there was reduce friction, right? Reduce the friction of your habit. You know, they make it, make it this, make it that. But you got to reduce the friction of your hat. You know how like. And you talk about this where if you want to get on a better diet or whatever, just keep the junk food out of your house. Yeah, that's reducing the friction. You see the junk food, there's friction there against your new habit that you want. See, I'm saying anyway, reduce the friction. So if you put on a shirt that says discipline equals freedom and you want to get, you want to improve your workout schedule or something like this reduces the friction. Hell yeah, bro. I dare you to skip a workout. Wearing discipline equals free. Not happening right now. It's not gonna happen.

[Jocko Willink]

Not happen. 100.

[Echo Charles]

Impossible.

[Jocko Willink]

100.

[Echo Charles]

It's literally impossible. 100. You know, also on jocko stories, the shirt locker. New designs every month subscription scenario. A little bit outside of the box. We get creative with it.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, you almost lost a Burke.

[Echo Charles]

Almost brought him right back in.

[Jocko Willink]

Back in what? You bring him back in with the.

[Echo Charles]

The. It was a covert anti drinking.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, that's right.

[Echo Charles]

Discipline. No, put it this way. Discipline instead of beer. How about that? That's more what it is.

[Jocko Willink]

I like it.

[Echo Charles]

It's a good one. Anyway, it's called the shirt locker. It's on jocastore.com so, you know, check that out.

[Jocko Willink]

Get some. Also primalbeef.com coloradocraftbeef.com we need. Look, we need lean sentences. Yeah, that sound good. We also need steak that tastes good. Go to primalbeef.com Colorado craft beer, beef.com steak burgers, hot dogs, jerky, beef tallow. By the way, from coloradocraftbeef.com just we got what you need. So if you need steak, you need beef products. Primal beef.com, coloradocraftbeef.com awesome people, awesome families, awesome companies. America.

[Echo Charles]

Let's go, bro. You want to real quick list a short easy recipe here. You know, speaking of friction. So Primal beef. Whichever. Get your ground beef right. Three eggs. So one pound of ground beef, give or take. Three eggs. Cage free, pasture raised ideally. Do you know Famous Dave's rib rub? You ever heard of this?

[Jocko Willink]

No.

[Echo Charles]

It's called Famous Dave's rib rub.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

They put some of that in there. Boom. Cook it all up in a pan.

[Jocko Willink]

One big basket, one big deal.

[Echo Charles]

Yep, one big.

[Jocko Willink]

How much does it taste like eggs?

[Echo Charles]

None. I like. No, I put it this. Yeah. When you hit a chunk of egg, you know. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, but it's weird if you don't smell an egg. An egg doesn't taste like anything. It's the smell of an egg. Like. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like when I'm eating Chinese food and there's some eggs in there. I don't. Doesn't taste at all like eggs.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Right or wrong.

[Echo Charles]

You're right about that. Yeah, you are. Now that I think of it. Well, okay.

[Jocko Willink]

You're damn right.

[Echo Charles]

So my. And with the eggs, this is how I do it. I cook it up first without the eggs. Right. At the last minute, I crack the three eggs on top. Kind of like gourmet style. Do not mix them in. I used to mix in a bunch of egg whites. I used to, but it's like, you know. Plus I hear the cholesterol from the egg yolks is good for you. Yeah, good fruit development in many ways. Anyway. I crack them. I crack, I don't mix them in. I put the, I turn it off. I put the, the, the top, the cap, what do you call it? The COVID So the eggs cook like just ever so subtly over the surface. See, I'm saying. Then I make jasmine rice.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, bro, good to go.

[Echo Charles]

Freaking mix them all together if you like. But yes, about 80. No, like 100 grams of protein in that one. So that's like a post workout scenario. Easily digestible. Carbohydrates.

[Jocko Willink]

Jasmine rice.

[Echo Charles]

Jasmine rice. Omega 3 fatty acids. Good brother. The whole spectrum of nutrients for. For gains. That's a good answer. Easy, quick, good, easy recipe right there.

[Jocko Willink]

Awesome. There you go. Also subscribe to this podcast. Also subscribe to Jocko underground. Also the YouTube channels. Psychological warfare. Written a bunch of books, by the way. One of them is getting made into a movie. Or actually it's kind of the first two that got made into a movie. Those are Wave The Warrior Kid, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Mikey and the Dragons and then a bunch. You know, speaking of creative process, final spin over there, wrote a little novel activity. So there you go. Bunch of books, leadership books, the whole nine yards. Also, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com for the deets. Did I say the deets? Yes, I did. I'm turning, I'm getting practicing. Communications.

[Echo Charles]

Hell yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, we got the muster that you can attend that. The next one is San Antonio, Texas, April 29 through May 1. We also have the council, we have battlefield. And then if you want us to come to your company, we will come into your company and we will help you with your leadership. That's echelonfront.com we also have an online training academy. These leadership principles that we talk about, these are skills. Just like writing is a skill, leadership is a skill. And you can use this leadership skill. Just like writing when you're writing a text to your wife or your husband, or you're writing a text or a formal email to your board, either way, it's the same skill set. Same thing with leadership. You're leading your spouse, you're leading your kids, or you're leading your board members. Use these skills. If you want to learn these skills, go to extreme ownership.com and also if you want to help out service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, want to help gold star families? Check out Mark Lee's mom. She's got an amazing organization. It's America's Mighty Warriors. And if you want to help them out or you want to donate, go to americasmightywarriors.org also don't forget about heroes and horses.org up in Montana with Micah Fink. And then finally Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood.org if you want to connect with us, I'[e-mail] and on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink and Echoes Attic with Charles. Just don't, just don't waste a bunch of time there because you could be writing, you could be getting smarter, you could be lifting, getting stronger, could be sprinting, getting faster. Don't let the algorithm make you dumber, slower and weaker. Thanks all the military personnel out there on the front lines protecting us, but also in the intellectual zone making sure our troops know how to lead and read and write and think. So thanks to all those military personnel teaching us how to think. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thanks for keeping us safe here on the home front and everyone else out there. Your mind is like your body. You need to learn skills. You need to train it, you need to exercise it. You need to make your mind strong. You need to make your body strong. You need to make your mind nimble. You need to make your body nimble. You need to train, you need to push, you need to fuel it properly. You need to make your mind better. And one of the best ways to do that is to write. It's also a critical component of leading and of winning. So get out some paper, pick up a pen, go get after it. Until next time, this is Ekko and Jocko out.