483: Grayisms. Thoughts on Leadership That Apply Right Now. From Al Gray.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast Episode 483 – Grayisms: Thoughts on Leadership That Apply Right Now

Title: Grayisms. Thoughts on Leadership That Apply Right Now. From Al Gray.

Hosts: Jocko Willink and Echo Charles
Release Date: March 26, 2025
Description: Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink, and Director Echo Charles delve into discipline and leadership in various arenas, drawing insights from General Al Gray's esteemed military career.

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1. Introduction to General Al Gray and His Heroic Legacy

The episode opens with Jocko Willink recounting the heroic actions of Major Alfred Gray during a perilous incident on May 14, 1967. In the darkness, three Marines inadvertently entered a mined area, resulting in the tragic death of one Marine and severe injuries to his comrades. Major Gray, upon learning of the accident, displayed exceptional courage by entering the minefield to assist his wounded fellow Marines. His selfless actions not only saved lives but also inspired those around him, embodying the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.

Key Quote:

"By his inspiring courage, bold initiative, and selfless devotion to duty, Major Gray upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval service."
– [00:05] Jocko Willink

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2. General Al Gray: A Distinguished Career

Jocko provides an overview of General Gray's illustrious career in the Marine Corps. Enlisting in 1950 and commissioning in 1952, Gray served in Korea and Vietnam, earning the Silver Star for his valor. His ascension through the ranks culminated in his appointment as the 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps from 1987 to 1991. General Gray was instrumental in advancing maneuver warfare and emphasized the importance of brainpower as a crucial weapon of war. His leadership during Desert Storm showcased the effectiveness of decentralized command, where officers and enlisted leaders were empowered to make decisive decisions on the battlefield.

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3. Gray Isms: Core Leadership Principles

The heart of the episode revolves around "Gray Isms," a collection of leadership philosophies derived from General Gray's experiences and teachings. Compiled by Paul Ott and published by the Potomac Institute Press, these principles offer timeless guidance applicable in military, business, and personal contexts.

3.1 You Are the One Responsible

General Gray believed in the principle of extreme ownership, where leaders are ultimately accountable for their teams' actions and outcomes.

Key Quote:

"You are the one responsible."
– [Various timestamps]

An anecdote illustrates this principle when General Gray took personal responsibility for a helicopter crash's aftermath in Korea, demonstrating moral courage and ownership.

3.2 Hold Them Together and Point Them in the Right Direction

During Desert Storm, General Gray emphasized the importance of maintaining unit cohesion and providing clear direction within the first critical seconds of leadership encounters.

Key Quote:

"The most critical leadership point is in the first 15 seconds, hold your Marines together and point them in the right direction."
– [Approximately 09:00]

3.3 Don’t Paint Rocks

Gray critiqued unnecessary and superficial efforts that detract from mission-critical tasks. Using the metaphor of painted rocks on a base's road, he highlighted the futility of focusing on trivial details instead of meaningful objectives.

Key Quote:

"Don't waste your effort doing unnecessary things."
– [10:53] Jocko Willink

3.4 Know Yourself, Know Your People, Know Your Profession

A fundamental tenant of Gray’s leadership is comprehensive self-awareness, deep understanding of team members beyond their roles, and mastery of one's professional field.

Key Quote:

"Know yourself, know your people, know your profession."
– [13:27] Jocko Willink

Echo and Jocko discuss the importance of turning information into actionable knowledge, emphasizing continuous learning and practical application.

3.5 Take What You Get, Make What You Want

This principle underscores adaptability and resourcefulness. Leaders are encouraged to maximize available resources and transform challenges into opportunities.

Key Quote:

"Take what you get, make what you want."
– [24:56] Jocko Willink

General Gray exemplified this attitude by accepting every assignment and optimizing circumstances to achieve desired outcomes, a key ingredient to his professional success.

3.6 Communicate by How as Much as What You Say

Effective communication relies not just on explicit instructions but also on implicit understanding and mutual comprehension. General Gray advocated for clear, concise directives that empower subordinates to act autonomously.

Key Quote:

"Implicit communications to communicate through mutual understanding... minimum of key well understood phrases."
– [26:56] Jocko Willink

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4. Application of Gray Isms in Modern Leadership

Jocko and Echo explore how Gray Isms are applicable beyond the military, extending into business, personal relationships, and everyday leadership scenarios. They discuss the balance between mental and physical toughness, the importance of empowering team members, and fostering environments where individuals can thrive and innovate.

Discussion Highlights:

• Decentralized Command: Empowering leaders at all levels to make decisions fosters agility and responsiveness.
• Ownership and Accountability: Leaders must take responsibility for their teams' successes and failures, promoting a culture of trust and integrity.
• Adaptability: Embracing change and being prepared with alternative plans mitigates risks and enhances resilience.

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5. Anecdotes and Testimonials

The episode features compelling stories from fellow Marines like Master Sergeant J.D. Baker and Corporal Robert R. Jones, illustrating General Gray's profound impact on individuals and the Marine Corps. These narratives highlight Gray's hands-on leadership style, his genuine care for his Marines, and the lasting legacy of his mentorship.

Key Anecdote:

Corporal Jones recounts General Gray's unexpected visit to a combat firebase in Panama, where Gray personally interacted with the Marines, boosting morale and fostering a sense of camaraderie.
– [44:54] Jocko Willink

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6. Final Insights and Conclusions

Jocko and Echo conclude by reinforcing the enduring relevance of General Gray's leadership principles. They emphasize the necessity of self-discipline, continuous learning, and the cultivation of both mental and physical strengths. The discussion also touches upon the importance of training successors, fostering a supportive and non-bureaucratic environment, and maintaining humility and openness in leadership roles.

Final Quote:

"Do as much good as you can for as many people as you can, for as long as you can."
– [Last section before ads]

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7. Skipped Sections: Advertisements and Promotions

In adherence to the summary guidelines, all segments pertaining to product promotions, event advertisements, and personal endorsements (from [69:05] onward) have been excluded to maintain focus on the episode's core content.

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Conclusion

Episode 483 of the Jocko Podcast offers an in-depth exploration of General Al Gray's leadership philosophies, immortalized as "Gray Isms." Through a blend of historical recounting, personal anecdotes, and practical discussions, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles provide listeners with timeless lessons on responsibility, effective communication, adaptability, and the essence of true leadership. Whether in combat, business, or personal endeavors, these principles serve as a guiding beacon for aspiring leaders aiming to inspire and drive their teams toward excellence.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko podcast number 483 with Echo, Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

During the night of May 14, 1967, three Marines who were en route to a listening post northeast of the perimeter became confused in the darkness and unknowingly entered an area heavily mined with M2 and M16 mines. One of the Marines inadvertently detonated a mine, which killed him and seriously wounded his comrades. Upon learning of the accident, Major Gray immediately proceeded to the area and realizing that the casualties required immediate medical attention, unhesitatingly entered the mined area to assist them. Disregarding his own safety, Major Gray, accompanied by another Marine, calmly and skillfully probed a cleared path 40 meters through the unmarked minefield to the side of the wounded men. Directing his companion to guide stretcher bearers along the cleared route, Major Gray moved one of the casualties away from a sensitized mine and began administering. Administering first aid to the injured Marines. When stretcher bearers arrived, he directed the safe evacuation of the casualties through the minefield. Subsequently, he maneuvered through the dangerous area to the side of the mortally wounded Marine and left the hazardous area only after he was assured that the man was dead. His timely and heroic actions in the face of great personal danger inspired all those who served with him and were instrumental in saving the lives of two Marines. By his inspiring courage, bold initiative, and selfless devotion to duty, Major Gray upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval service. And that right there is a quote from the Silver star citation of Major Alfred Gray, who eventually became the legendary General Al Gray, Commandant of the Marine Corps from July 7, 1987, until June 30, 1991. He always stood out because he's the only or one of the reasons that he stood out. He's the only commandant to have his official Marine Corps commandant picture taken in his camouflage uniform. So when you look at the long line of commandants of the Marine Corps, they're all in their dress uniforms except for General Gray, who's just in his cammies, reminding all Marines that they are riflemen and warriors, and they're meant for war and not for peace. So General Gray, he enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1950. He was commissioned in 1952. He served in Korea with the 1st Marine Division. He served in Vietnam as well. And as I mentioned, he was awarded the Silver Star there. He commanded 1st Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment. He made full colonel in 1972. He made brigadier general in 1976. He made major general in 1980, commanded the 2nd Marine Division. He was promoted to lieutenant general in 1984 and he's finally promoted to four star and commandant of the Marine Corps, like I said in 1987 until he retired in 1991 after 41 years of service. And while he was a commandant, he was. He drove maneuver warfare and brain power as the crucial weapon of war. He oversaw the creation of FM FM1 war fighting, which was we covered on this podcast. It's just an outstanding field manual we covered on podcast 35. So that was like almost 10 years ago. We covered FM FM1 war fighting. And he made war fighting not just the manual, but the action, the focus of the Marine Corps. And he had a lasting impact on Marines and sailors like me as well, who heard about him because he was the commandant when I first came in the Navy. He died on March 24, 2024 at the age of 95 in Alexandria, Virginia. Now there's a place called the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies. And, and they made a document called Gray Isms. Gray Isms and Other Thoughts on Leadership from General Al Gray. It was compiled by a guy named Paul Ott who was also Marine, was published by the Potomac Institute Press, and I think it captures some of the lessons from this great leader and from people who learned from him and they pass it on in this. You call it a book or a document? I don't know, but this book, we'll call it a book, Gray Isms and Other Thoughts on Leadership. So let's get to it. You can get this, by the way, you can just download this, it's online. Here's the intro. From the very beginning of working with General Gray, there were several things that became very obvious. Foremost are how much he loves his Marines along with the sailors who serve with them, and how much they love and respect him in return. He has great ad from admiration for all armed forces. Another thing is how humble he really is. It's never been and never will be about him. And part of that respect is off how often people have General Gray stories to share with you. We gave them a name, Gray Isms. So that's kind of where, where this stuff comes from. Fast forward a little bit. We were able to gain greater insight into this very special Marine who took what he got and made what he wanted. This book is a compilation of many sayings we have heard and heard repeated as they have been shared form from one Marine to another. And that's from Paul Ott, Corporal USMC 1961-1965. And they wrote this book in 2014. I think it came out in 2015. So, General Gray, there's some cool. The cool thing about these modern generals is there's, like, videos of him talking and you can see he's fired up. What are Gray isms? Gray isms are the embodiment. Embodiment of simplicity. The listing is in no particular order of importance. Grisms, like other words of guidance, become important when they are applied as evidence. From the many times these statements were repeated, they were. They are important to the Marines that remember them. If applied, they will become important to any leader. Straightforward. This guy's just a straight shooter. And guess what it starts off with. Well, the one I'm gonna start with. You are the one responsible. Boom, there you go. General Gray has always seen himself as the one ultimately responsible for what happened to his Marines. In 1990, after a helicopter crash in Korea, Marines were medically evacuated to a burn center in San Antonio, Texas. Sergeant Major Summers was with him when General Gray walked into the waiting room, told the families assembly assembled there that he was responsible for their son's injuries, and asked them what he could do to help. This took moral courage. So there you go. This is such an awesome example of ownership, because here's the commandant of the Marine Corps in charge of almost 300,000 Marines, and there's a helicopter crash. Now, was he flying that helicopter? Was he near that helicopter? Was he in charge of the helicopter's maintenance? Did he come up with a flight plan? Did he even know that thing was happening? No, of course not. He's in charge of 300,000 Marines. But he knows that as the commodore commandant, he is ultimately responsible. That's what I called extreme ownership in the book Extreme Ownership. Fast forward a little bit. It goes back to General John A. Lejeune, our 13th Commandant, when he said that the relationship between officers and enlisted Marines is not one of a superior to subordinate, but more like a teacher and a scholar. And he implored that all Marines should be responsible for their activities and that you owe it to your Marines to see to it that each one is stronger morally, mentally, and physically when he leaves you than when he joins you. And that's the cardinal thought process that Marine commandants share and accept as a responsibility. So that's the way it all starts off. You are the one responsible. There's a little story here. This is under the title Hold Them Together and Point Them in the Right Direction. During Desert Storm and Desert Shield, General Gray went to visit the troops often. The mission each time was to talk to as Many young officers and NCOs as possible. The message, the message, the most critical leadership point is in the first 15 seconds, hold your Marines together and point them in the right direction. Boom. The hardest thing to was when he had to come back to Washington. Sergeant Major Summers said that the general is worried about his Marines and the chemical threat. General Gray was very, very concerned with the possibility of heavy casualties As a result. We spent a lot of time going from one unit to another. I sat in meetings with him constantly. We would come out of the meetings and we would discuss what went on in the meeting. And it was always, what do you think, Sergeant Major? I also often shared with him my worry for him personally. He was so concerned that I was becoming increasingly concerned about his own health. The man didn't sleep, he didn't eat. He was constantly traveling, constantly working, constantly preaching the message of preparedness. And that's from Sergeant Major Summers, who wrote a book called Uncommon Men. So he continues on here. The greatest tribute to General Gray's philosophy for leading came during Desert Storm. There wasn't an officer or enlisted leader on the battlefield that was afraid to make a decision following the maneuver thought process, mission guidance, and commander's intent. So I'll say that again. There wasn't an officer or an enlisted guy that wasn't. That was hesitant to make a decision. They were going to make decisions. That's decentralized command continuing on. We had focused so hard on our capability, on training, on maneuver warfare, on all the things we did in the liberation of Kuwait. To me, it was the final examination. Does it work? Yes, it did. Our Marines went through that place like a knife through butter. We saw young officers and young corporals and sergeants who, in the true sense of maneuver warfare, didn't have to worry about getting authority from higher command. They understood the commander's intent, and that freed them to do what they had to do. So, again, this is decentralized command. Everyone is a leader, and they've got to understand not just what they're doing, but why they're doing it. Next title. Next quote. Don't paint rocks. You ever been on a Marine Corps base?

[Echo Charles]

No. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you ever seen white rocks or army base sometimes? Like on the side of a road kind of going along, outlining a road?

[Echo Charles]

Not that I can recall.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. If you go to. Unfortunately, you go to some. Some bases and there's white rocks there, like, kind of. They'll put them along the road, and it's probably not that necessary to beat your rocks. White don't paint rocks. His point? Don't waste your effort doing unnecessary things. Well, meaning people can go to great lengths doing things that are not required. Painting rocks in advance of a general's visit is just one example. We all know organizations that paint rocks and leaders that knowingly allow it to occur. Some might even expect it. Some paint rocks in more subtle but still wasteful ways.

[Echo Charles]

I don't.

[Jocko Willink]

You don't get it?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I mean, I think I get it. But why do they paint rocks literally? Why is there white rocks?

[Jocko Willink]

Literally? Paint the rocks because they. So all the rocks look the same, and they're all uniformed and they look clean and they look squared away like rocks.

[Echo Charles]

Like.

[Jocko Willink]

Like a rock the size of a shoebox. And paint 30 of those rocks white and then line the road with them, like. Yeah. Spaced apart, you know, 20ft.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. All right, so I still don't get why they do that, though.

[Jocko Willink]

Because it looks nice. Straight up in their mind it looks nice. And if you're a general and you're like, wait a second, the last guy had his rocks painted. Why have, like, shabby looking rocks?

[Echo Charles]

Wait, who He. So he has. What do you mean he has rocks? Like, when I drive.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, so imagine this. Okay, so imagine this. I was coming to visit you at your house.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And out on your driveway, you had some rocks that kind of line the driveway. And you want it to look nice for your visit. For my visit. Because I'm the general and you're the colonel. And so you're like, hey, Corporal, we need all these rocks to be the same. Paint them all white. And what's the Corporal do? We paint some white. And now I show up, I'm like, oh, those rocks look good. They obviously care about me. They show that they. You see what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Okay. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It goes beyond, to use one of my terms, functional cleanliness. Right. So we have functional cleanliness. Like, okay, makes sense. We're. Put some rocks on the road so people can see the road a little more clearly at night.

[Echo Charles]

Cool.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, now we're painting them white. Oh, now we're repainting. You see what I'm saying? It's a waste of time. That's what he's getting at.

[Echo Charles]

I got you. Okay, so the. The rock. The white rock painting scenario is commonplace in the Marine.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a little too. I've seen it. I. I think there's less of it now, but it certainly was a thing.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, for real?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

100%. Cool. See some white rocks lighting the road?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So he's saying, hey, bro, that's. That's unnecessary.

[Jocko Willink]

Don't. Don't be painting red.

[Echo Charles]

Gotcha.

[Jocko Willink]

Y. Next quote. Know yourself, know your people, know your profession. This is General Gray's fundamental tenant of leadership. He will quickly point out that he's not the first leader who believed it. To which we would respond. He personified it. To be a leader, one must begin with knowing yourself, the real you. Not what you think you are, but what others know you are. And it includes knowing what you don't know. Knowing your people knows. Going beyond their name, rank, and serial number. It means knowing them as people. Starting with each individual. Fast forward a little bit. Many think no one may know their profession better than General Gray. His office, even today, resembles a small library. When deployed, he often took a footlocker full of books to read. And when he returned, they were not only read, they were also marked up with highlighters and notes. There you go. And here's a quote from General Gray. In my humble opinion, the military is going overboard on information and underboard, if that's a word on knowledge. And we ought to concentrate more on knowledge and what that means and less on information. This is the. The idea of memorizing stuff as opposed to learning stuff. When I went to college, I. I hadn't memorized all kinds of stuff. And I'm good at memorizing. I can memorize anything, and I would memorize stuff, and it's good. But there's a limitation to it. You. It's so much better to actually understand something than it is to just memorize something. Got to understand the context of why it is that way and how it got to be that way. And then you have, in my opinion, you have deeper and longer lasting knowledge than I just memorized a bunch of facts.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. The. You know how they say that the world is. I mean, the problem isn't the limitations of access to knowledge or to information. It's the lack of knowledge that people have. So that if. Yeah, like in Jiu jitsu, right? Where it's like you can watch a million YouTube videos on a million moves, but doesn't mean you know jiu jitsu now. You know, kind of a thing. Yeah, you kind of got to.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, there's a physical barrier there too. You know, you have to do. You can't just watch a physical activity. You have to do it. It'll help somewhat to watch it, but you have to do the thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And that is similar here. You can read a bunch of military tactics about how to react to contact. And you can memorize different moves, but it's different. You get out there on that terrain and you see that little ravine and you see that finger sticking out. You see that enemies like moving behind concealment. Oh, and now they're moving to cover this. All these things are gonna happen, you'd expect.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah. And that's not to mention even if. And there's varying degrees of like, experience. You know, there's like training experience, there's like real combat experiences. All this stuff where if you don't have any of it, then you only have the information. It seems like it doesn't translate to knowledge at all.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, but it is so interesting that that gets. You can contrast that with the fact that this guy read so many books all the time. Right. And, and I, I can honestly say that I experienced that when I read about face so much that not so much like the, hey, we're in combat, we're getting shot at. Translation. But a lot of the administrative stuff, a lot of like, oh, you know, one of, one of the things that I got from Hackworth just off the top of my head, I mean, I stole all kinds of things from Hackworth, but understanding that the next echelon above you in the chain of command, like, doesn't get it. You know, that's the, that's the opinion. Oh, the next echelon doesn't get it. And understanding that that's not correct. It's just that and that you're responsible for making sure that they get it. That was a huge part of me being successful in building a good relationship with my boss. Instead of being like, oh, he doesn't get, I was like, oh, he doesn't get it because of me. Yeah, it's my fault. And I need to make sure that he does understand what's happening. I need to do a better job with the after actions reward. So doing those things, I read about them and then I saw them in real life, if I hadn't read about them, look, is there a 50% chance I could have figured it out? Maybe, but maybe not.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So reading about it gave me a heads up. And then actually doing it. And then it was like, okay, cool, this makes sense. So you could do the same thing with jiu jitsu where it's like, oh, if the person does this on the arm lock, you need to make adjust your hips over here and you go, oh. And you could read it or watch it. And then when you do it, you could have a pretty good chance of executing it. Maybe have to execute it a few times before you get it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But it's all adding everything that you can do to add knowledge into your. Add information into your brain that. That information then can be contextualized and turned into knowledge more rapidly.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully. In. In Jiu Jitsu is one of those. You can't just trial and error your way through Jiu Jitsu.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

At all. Like, if you don't know, someone's going to show you, someone is going to demonstrate, whether it's a video or a coach or whatever. You can't just be like, oh, yeah, I know zero Jiu Jitsu, and then just sort of figure it out.

[Jocko Willink]

We're about to have an Ecological Jiu Jitsu discussion. Are you tracking any of that right now?

[Echo Charles]

Ecological.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah. There's like a whole theory of training of ecological training versus, I don't know what they call traditional training, but basically ecological training in Jiu Jitsu, you don't get shown any moves. You just get told what the outcome is that you're looking for. And there's some people that. That that's how they're training, like, and so you basically make games get around their legs or whatever. So there's just. It's just. And. And I think there's obviously a good balance of all these things that make things work well, but that's where I thought. I thought you were about to just break into this. No, well, the ecological discussion, we obviously.

[Echo Charles]

Could, but in and of it. So that feels like we couldn't.

[Jocko Willink]

Because you don't know what it is.

[Echo Charles]

I do now.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, okay.

[Echo Charles]

That. You just told me.

[Jocko Willink]

People are real into it.

[Echo Charles]

I dig it. But I don't know. I don't know that that would be the best. And then again, I don't know. I'd have to know the details and really what it looks like in real life, but I don't know that that would be as beneficial as one might think if someone's starting from zero. So it's like, yeah, get around those legs. Because that was me my first day of Jiu Jitsu. I knew what. I didn't know what side mount was, but I knew what mount was. I know what Rear Naked Choke is. I know what arm bar is. I know what guard is. Oh, yeah, bro. I was trying to get there all day and I was freaking. Just gassing. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know any moves. And then if no one ever taught me moves, I don't think I would ever got there even.

[Jocko Willink]

I Mean, maybe you got there at a very, very, very slow pace if you had a certain type of mind too. Because there's some people, like you ever notice, some people say, oh, I just did this and it worked. And some people are like, they don't even know what they just did, whether it worked or not.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. But usually like, even people with that kind of mind, it's like there's some foundation that, that was taught to them. You know, like even like Helio Gracie himself, by the way, he's watching judo guys and, you know, Japanese jiu jitsu guys and like he's watching the framework. And then yes, of course he had one of these minds where he, okay, I can make these adjustments and make up stuff off of this framework, but you can't just like, can't just trial and error your way. I mean, look, am I going to say can't? I'm not going to be absolute and say that, but I'm just saying I don't see that as the way. But if you have a lot of knowledge. Oh, oh, frick. Yeah, all day. In fact, that's one of Jeff Glover's like, training methods is what he'd be like, hey, get to here.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh yeah, for sure.

[Echo Charles]

From this position, just get to here. And then you got to use all your knowledge that you learned, by the way.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So, yeah, that you learned. It's. That's like Jeff Glover being the, the original ecological Jiu Jitsu practitioner trainer. But I also used to do this with kids because little kids, they will actually figure things out that you didn't think of. And so when you tell a kid, okay, you put a kid in the guard and you say, okay, now get, now get to this other position. And you don't tell them how, they're gonna figure out like nine different ways. I would say seven out of 10 kids will figure out a way. Three kids will be like, hey, dude, you need to push over here. And that's just the way it is. Like you said, there's like a personality, a certain personality that is going to be very open minded and very risk taking and we'll try different stuff with adults. Like, you can't do that. Doesn't work as well because adults are like, oh, get around their legs. Our minds are too closed. When we're, when we're grown up, we need to be told what to do more. Little kids will just figure, figure stuff out.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And I think a big part of a big, a big part of why that's valuable for kids is because and this applies to adults. But I don't know, for whatever reason, maybe kids minds are just like. More like that, where, you know, how if something is relevant, then it becomes way more interesting. So if you're just like, hey, you want to get around his legs? And be like, okay, cool, I'm gonna do it. And sure, they'll just try anything. They'll, you know, whatever. They'll go. But they know they're attached. Their brain is attached to getting around the legs. So they're like, okay, they try this, they try that, they try this. And usually the other kid is not some expert kid. He's an another kid. You know, whatever. If it's some expert kid, trust me, their little creative mind ain't getting around those legs. See what I'm saying? So they're gonna do. And it's all fun. It's a game. They know the outcome, that they're going for whatever, and they get creative and they. They're like, okay, that's cool. And you can. But what it does is, at the end of the day, it makes that guard pass really relevant. So now when you teach them a move, they're gonna be like, oh, I can do that next time I'm trying to, quote, unquote, get around these legs. See what I'm saying? So it's. Now it's that relevant. Create. Creates this, like, demand, this hole that they can fill.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. And it contextualizes.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

Which is. Which is why I think this is important, that it's. Look, you need information. That's why you read books. That's why you study, that's why you learn. But then you need to have an opportunity to put that into action and. And contextualize and bring into the real world the information that you have. And you. That's what turns the information into knowledge. So if you're a trainer, it's very beneficial to do. That's another good point. If I had a SEAL platoon and I could see that the way that they're getting headcount was bad. If I told them, hey, the way you're getting your headcount, like, I'm watching them in rehearsal, and I can see that the way they're getting their head count is bad. If I said, hey, the way you're getting your head count is bad, they'd be like, well, this is how we want to do it.

[Echo Charles]

Okay?

[Jocko Willink]

I stopped telling them that. I would tell them after because guess what happens in the field? They have to get a headcount. They can't get one. There's confusion. There's chaos. They fail. Now they. Now exactly what you just said. Now they come back, their mind is open, and they're like. When you say, hey, I know a good methodology for getting a headcount in chaotic situations. They go, what is it? And you tell them, and boom, they're in the game. You can't. Before you go out, you're like, hey, this isn't the best way to get a headcount. It's going to work fine. I did it my last platoon. This way.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I'll just count them.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, whatever. Yeah. Yes, whatever.

[Echo Charles]

Just like, like, I'll just get around the legs. Easy.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's good to create a little bit of, A little bit of an opening, a little bit of a, of a, of a. Of a gap. When they see the gap, they more likely to fill it. When they don't see the gap, you. You hand them something, they're just like, what am I going to use?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, what's this for? Yeah, exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

It doesn't make any sense. This might be my favorite quote. Take what you get, make what you want. Take what you get, make what you want. What an attitude to have. It says. This is one of the most often repeated phrases of General Gray. He uses many ways in talking about his assignments. The Marines he has led, the Marines he has had the responsibility to lead. And in overcoming the obstacles he faced, while others sought out assignments that would further their careers, General Gray accepted every duty given to him and made the best of it. In the long run, it was a key ingredient to his success as a professional in the nation's corps of Marines. But what a great attitude. Take what you get, make what you want. You're not going to get anything handed to you the way you want it to be on a silver platter. It's not happening. This is not happening. You take what you get. Okay, this is what I got. Now I'm going to make it what I want. Freaking get yourself an attitude adjustment. Another good one. You cannot write a recipe for all situations. Doctrine is a guide. General Gray tells us he wrote in the forward to war fighting. This book describes my philosophy on war fighting. It is the Marine Corps doctrine, and as such, it provides the authoritative basis for how we fight and how we prepare to fight. It is not intended as a reference manual, but it is designed to be read from COVID to cover. This book does not contain specific techniques and procedures for conduct. It requires judgment in application. So remember, that doctrine should be a guide. Just like in jiu jitsu, passing Guard and where you put your hands and where you put. That's a guide. And there's some. I remember when Glover showed up and he had like back escapes. Someone be on his back and he'd do something that was completely against everything that I ever learned.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

What are you doing, Jeff Glover? Why are you doing this? What are you doing? Why are you doing this? And it's like, oh, because when I do this, they do that and I get over here and then I'm out. Oh, wow. So you can't write a recipe for all situations. This is also good in terms of self defense. When it's like, well, what, what situation are you going to be in? Downward stabbing attack motion with the overhead knife. Like that is cool. You can learn one self defense move for that. But that's not what's gonna happen in the street. It's gonna be different. So you need to learn the philosophies about how to fight about distance, about timing, about. About closing the distance, about what to do with weapons, about how to de escalate before the whole thing gets started. These are all things that you need to apply. And it's the same thing with combat. It's the same thing with leadership. Like, there are going to be times in leadership where it's, you, guess what you need to do. Jocko talks about the indirect approach all the time. There's gonna be times in leadership we need to go, hey, Echo, you need to stop doing that now. Totally direct. There are times that that happens. There are times that that happens. So we, as we learn skills, we need to learn to adapt those skills. And you ever seen that video of Larry Bird shooting a shot? He's behind the backboard and he shoots a shot over the backboard swoosh hoop like he's about to fall out of bounds. He gets the ball, he sees the hoop and just like shoots from behind the backboard. He never practiced that shot in his life. Right? He didn't practice behind the backboard shots, but he used that skill. He used the skills that he had to adapt into that moment. And that's what you need to do with leadership. That's what you need to do with jiu jitsu. That's what you need with combat. That's what you need to do with writing. That's what you need to do with life. Keep an open mind. You can't write a recipe for all situations. He says it doesn't cost any money to think. Thinking can be our greatest resource. Thinking can be the source of new ideas, new Approaches and new solutions. Thinking doesn't cost any money, and it just might save money. Isn't it interesting that we could actually sit around and, like, discuss and think through problems and it doesn't cost anything. Fast forward a little bit. Want a new idea? Read an old book. And he says this. I have always been a reader, and of course, I spent so much time aboard ship. For example, I would take a foot locker full of books with me to the Mediterranean and to the Mideast and read about the countries in that region and the impr. The impact of their religious history and culture. And this is my key component of this. It's important to look at people through their eyes, not just our eyes. So he's just trying to gain perspective of what the way other people are thinking. And he says, you name it, I read it. Fast forward getting to some core leadership activities here. You must care more about the people you are privileged to lead than about yourself. Everything that gets done gets done through people. Leaders must truly care more about the people they lead than themselves. To him, to General Gray, the. These are more than just words. They represent a way of life, his life. And he proved it by the example that he set. Unless. And here's another one, Unless you care more about others than yourself, you will fall prey to careerism. Careerism. Do they have that in a normal world or is that just a military thing?

[Echo Charles]

What is careerism?

[Jocko Willink]

I'm looking out for my career.

[Echo Charles]

I would imagine. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, they do. Then what am I saying? Of course they do. They do. It might not be as profound or as obvious, but, you know, in the military, like, you get this job to get this job and you get that job, you need to take this job and you get that job. You get that job and you. Can you see what I'm saying? Like, you're. We call them in the SEAL teams, ticket punchers.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it feels like it. It'd be a different dynamic in the military because just how. What you said. I learned this completely from you, by the way. I wasn't in the military. You know that about me. But that you say that if you have a career without any, like, black marks on it or whatever, you know what it's like, oh, that looks good. You know, more so than, hey, this, like, this guy made these cool changes with this. This new way of thinking, you know, like, it really brought this freaking outfit to the next level. It's less about that and more about, you know, staying safe or whatever in the real world or whatever. The Corporate world or whatever, it's like you are kind of rewarded for, like, bringing things to the next level a little bit more. But I will say this on an individual level. Oh, yeah, I think, I think. And I've even witnessed it.

[Jocko Willink]

I don't.

[Echo Charles]

I haven't really had that many. Well, I've had a lot of jobs. But yes, on an individual level, people will be like, no, no, I have a job to do. It doesn't matter how it affects necessarily the long term, whatever. I can say this week that I did my job good, you know, regardless of, like, the other repercussions kind of thing. Oh, I see that all the time, even right now.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And. And what you're talking about really is what we in the SEAL teams would call risk aver in the military in general. Risk averse. Right. So, oh, hey, we could go do this mission. If it goes well, that'd be awesome. If it goes bad, I'm gonna look bad. And generally speaking, generally speaking, people oftentimes will say, I'd rather just play it safe. Because the upside that you get for conducting an operation, the operation goes well, great job. Let's say in a point system, let's say you get five points because you went out, did a risky operation, and it went really well. You get five points for that. If it goes bad, you're getting negative 15.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you're like, well, I could get five, but I could lose 15. I'm just going to keep it at zero. I'm just going to stay safe. And there's a lot of people, unfortunately, in the military that kind of can take that. And see, in the corporate world, the same thing can happen. And because in the corporate world, like, oh, I'm gonna take a risk to go into this market. If I fail, if I win, cool, I won. Yeah, five points. If I fail, we lose a bunch of capital. We might have to shut down some of our divisions. Minus 15.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So it can be the same thing on both sides.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, probably.

[Jocko Willink]

Maybe the 5 and plus 5 minus 15 might not be quite the same because the minus 15 in the military is like, oh, you had. You lost people. People got wounded, People got killed. There's collateral damage. Civilians got killed. Like, those are so much worse than, like, oh, we did a great job.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. In. In the corporate world, real world, whatever we'll call it what private industry, whatever, that you can make big moves and get big payoffs. See, I'm saying, like, in the military, you're like, yeah, you can't get a raise you can't, you know, more money for the Navy.

[Jocko Willink]

For instance. You, you, you do a mission, like you've got a mission that comes up to go capture this bad guy. Well, who's this bad guy? Like, you could probably name three actual bad guys of the last 20 years, right? You got like, if you went down the list, you'd name three of them.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Including Saddam Hussein. You see what I'm saying? Most people like, so, so there's very few where everyone goes, oh, that is worth the risk. So you go out, you capture this bad guy. Great. Everything goes well, well, cool. You're, you're high five. You get, you get plus three on your, on your tab. Yeah. But go out and capture that guy that's going to get, look, if you go and you kill Osama bin Laden, cool. Plus 15. Right. Of course, you go capture Saddam. Cool. Plus 15. But most people that you're going to capture, it's like plus two, plus one maybe. Plus three. Cool. Now you go out, you do an operation, you have massive civilian casualties or you take casualties, people get wounded, people get killed. Minus 8, minus 15.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So why is it worth the risk? You see what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you can understand why these, why people are risk averse. And then it comes down to, okay, how, how do we mitigate some of that risk?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. It seems hard to measure massive success. Like it. In the corporate industry, whatever, private industry, it's easy to measure massive success. Like someone makes a huge move, they double revenue this year, it's like booms. Easy, tangible, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to demonstrate that in the military.

[Jocko Willink]

It is definitely difficult. Check next point. Never say I unless you are talking about making a mistake. It is amazing how the general consistently gives credit to others in all accomplishments, saying we while taking responsibility for a mistake or an error in judgment made by saying I. So pretty straightforward. You know what we really need to do? Well, you can accomplish anything you want if you don't care who gets the credit. Probably heard that one before. Here's one. No one makes a mistake on purpose. We tend to over supervise people and become concerned about how our effort will look when they make mistakes. We must turn our people loose and let them take actions. That is how they learn. Mistakes are to be minimized, but not eliminated. People can learn from mistakes and learning from mistakes is the best way to reduce future mistakes. Accepting mistakes can be seen as an investment in your people. That's a really good way of putting it. Accepting mistakes can be seen as an investment in your people. The greatest mistake a person could make can be the unwillingness to move forward because it involves risks. The failure to act. A mistake leads to mediocrity. And in a world moving forward at a rapid pace, mediocrity leads to failure. Should someone ever make an intentional mistake? No. As general Gray says, no. No one makes a mistake on purpose. So it's really good to remember that. And, and it's good to understand what people's intent is, because, like, when you got kids, they make mistakes, but what's their intent? If their intent was like, I'm trying to get away with something. I did this thing over here. Okay, that's bad. If their intent was like, I was trying to do this thing, and this bad thing happened, okay, cool. We get it. Mistake, right? General Gray says those who can't teach can't lead. If you're not teaching, you're not leading. Also says you can never spend too much money on training. Pretty straightforward. And this is something that I just talked about with Hackworth. General Gray points out the same thing. The next level of. Of authority is your natural enemy. General Gray believed the person best able to make a decision is the one closest to the situation, Especially when the next level of authority may be miles away or even in another country. Gaining approvals from higher levels can greatly reduce momentum and cause needless delays. While this Gray ism may be more tongue in cheek than the others, it clearly shows general Gray's dislike for what can be overly bureaucratic. Structures. Systems can aid and abet mediocrity. Bureaucracy, while needed, should be minimized whenever possible. With a smile. General Gray says headquarters has an insatiable appetite for information. Give them what they ask for, but pay no gratitudes. When General Gray was commandant, he became higher headquarters. He followed his Gray As I'm cutting 10% per year staff and resources out of headquarters and sending them to the field. There's cool videos of general Gray walking around talking to young marines, and he'd be like, when's the last time you were in the field? It'd be like, well, sir, I'm not. You don't even remember. It was that long ago. Need to get in the field. He wasn't playing around. Speaking of risk, There is nothing, nothing worth seeking that doesn't involve risk. General Gray believes that a risk averse or zero defect mentality is. Is the antithesis of leadership. It stifles innovation, motivation and leadership. Chaos and uncertainty create opportunities. Certainty is described as following established policies and procedures, making consistent and Safe decisions, low risk, minimizing mistakes, thoroughly planning before acting and building on what is. Uncertainty is described as creating new paths, making bold decisions, learning from mistakes, acting quickly, exploiting opportunities, and building on what can be. That's interesting. It's also, you can see the more you're building on what can be, the more risk there is, hey, we know these things are factual. We know what, we know what foundation we have, we can build on that. But when you're like, well, we might have this foundation and is a little nebulous right now, there's more risk. But that chaos and uncertainty, that's where the, that's where the opportunities are. Next. 1. Intent is the glue that holds everything together. Every mission has multiple parts. The task to be accomplished, which is the what and the intent, the reason why, along with the desired result of the action or the intent. Of the two, the intent is predominant. The intent must convey the leader's vision. It must be clearly understood at least 2 echelons or levels above and 2 echelons or levels below. This permits subordinates to take action and decisively, quickly and decisively, when the opportunity arises and when it is consistent with the overall intent. This is just classic decentralized command, making sure people understand why they're doing what they're doing and understanding what the intent is, they can go out and take action. And here's what General Gray says. Marines will do whatever you ask them to if you tell them why. Unless his intent is known, you are playing with half a hand. People know what they like doing, but they don't like being told how. Telling them how restricts creativity. In every new assignment, I would talk to all the officers and staff NCOs about my thought process. It is important that intent is known. It's a good one to practice with your kids. Like, don't tell them exactly what to do. Just give them some broad guidelines and tell them what the intent is. Continues on here. Knowing intent allows the individual closest to the situation to determine how a task can be accomplished. Intent is a prerequisite to decentralized execution. Knowing the intent, the why, the how doesn't matter. And this is from the War Fighting Book. The burden of understanding falls on the senior and the subordinate alike. The senior must make perfectly clear the result he expects, but in such a way that does not inhibit initiative. Subordinates must have a clear understanding of what their commander is thinking. Further, they should understand the intent of the commander two levels up. And this is one thing that I always point out is like, you should be Happy when someone on your team asks why you want them to do something, not mad. So when Echo says, why do you want it like that, I shouldn't be like, because I said so. I should be like, oh, here's what I'm trying to make happen. Here's the overall intent. That's good leadership. Next, you communicate by how as much as what you say, end quote. From war fighting, we believe that implicit communication, implicit communications to communicate through mutual understanding, use of using a minimum of key well understood phrases, or even anticipating. Anticipating each other's thoughts. Thoughts is a faster, more effective way to communicate than through the use of detailed, explicit instructions. This is when I wrote down the laws of combat for the first time. And the number two was simple. That was because I was watching a platoon out in the field and they were trying to communicate with each other in like full, detailed paragraphs of, of words. And you're, there's, you know, it's a, it's a training operation, but there's machine guns, fires, there's explosions going off, there's people yelling and screaming. And, you know, this platoon commander's like, hey, what we need to do is we need to move another 150 meters southwest down this ravine. Once we get down there, we're going to set up a. He's going on this whole thing. And what he really needed to say was pale, right? Like, just. That's why when it says minimum of key, well understood phrases peel right? That's all you need to know, dude. That's all anybody needs to know. We all know what that means. We don't need to know. 150 meters. We don't need to know. Perimeter at the end. We don't need to know about this ravine. We don't need to know any of that stuff. We just need to know. Peel right when you said we know what to do and we'll make it happen. So simple, clear, concise communication. Now this is interesting. This is a story in here from someone named Master Sergeant J.D. baker. You know who that is?

[Echo Charles]

I know who J.D. baker.

[Jocko Willink]

J.D. baker, yeah. Who has been on this podcast multiple times. Who. He did the, the Civil War, which we still need to finish. We got up to Gettysburg, but J.D. baker, Master Sergeant.

[Echo Charles]

So that's the same dude.

[Jocko Willink]

This is him? Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

All right.

[Jocko Willink]

This is J.D. i sent him a text. I sent him a picture of this yesterday. I'm like, this is you, right? He's like, absolutely. So here's a story from our, our, our brother, J.D. baker. In 1989, Marines were conducting combat operations in Panama. We were responsible for running combat patrols around the Arizon tank farm, located on the Pacific side of the Canal Zone. Marines operated out of a fire base located in the tank farm. Few, if any high ranking officials ever made it an appearance at the firebase, except one. As we were preparing for night operations, in came a couple of vehicles. We heard the commandant was coming to visit, but we never expected to see him at the fire base. Obviously, we were mistaken. General Gray had been at the Naval base looking to see all Marines when he found. When he found that most were in the fire base, he came out to be with the Marines. General Gray's presence lifted the spirits of all the Marines. He did not just hang out in the combat operations center. He made his way out to the fighting positions and spoke with all the Marines going to conduct night operations. He personally thanked the Marines for the job they were doing and said if they needed anything to send it up the chain. General Gray's visit spoke volumes for the Marines. They felt they had become comrades with the commandant because he took the time to meet and speak with everyone in the fire base. By the look of his staff members, this was not part of the planned itinerary. The presence of General Gray was felt by all. Master Sergeant J.D. baker, USMC, retired. So J.D. putting out word, and I talked to J.D. as he's saying, he's. He actually spent a lot of time with General Gray after. After he retired, which is awesome. Going through some more of these. I like this one a lot. What you did isn't as important as what you were thinking. Again, this is when people do things, look, they might make a mistake, but what were they thinking about? What was their intent? He says, in tactics, the most important thing is not whether you go lighter right or wrong left, but why you go right or left. That's Major General Al Gray. It's like so important. Got a whole section in here. Leadership by walking around. Marines called the Gray. Marines called him the Gray Ghost. Often showing up unexpected places and times. He would go out there and see people, Go out there and see what's happening. That was his mode. Here's a brilliant one. Do not make any more enemies than you already have. As I often say, it's not a good idea to form an antagonistic relationship with your boss, with your peers, with your subordinates. Why would you do that? What about with the supply department? What about with the. What about with the administrative department? No, don't make any enemies. Don't make any more enemies than you already have. Antagonistic relationships with people don't help you, they don't help them, they don't help the mission, they don't help the team. In Vietnam 1967, Major Al Gray said, there are two fundamentals when, when you're in a guerrilla and counterinsurgency warfare environment. One of them is you never do anything that's not good for the people you're trying to help. And number two, you don't ever make any more enemies than you've already got. Now here's one I have never heard before, but it's awesome. You can move elephants under their own power. Think about how smart this is. The statement would be great advice and insight from any leader. It's especially powerful when you realize the statement comes from the man who, as the 29th commandant, was in command of nearly 260,000 Marines. Managers may rely on the power of their positions. Leaders realize that power used is power lost. Some call it being empowering, which is power given. We prefer power assumed. Whatever you call it, moving people moving on their own power can move organizations large and small as well as elephants. So isn't that like, you cannot get a. Now, you cannot push an elephant. You can't pick it up and carry it. You have to get it to move under its own power. And if you can do that, that move, not only can that elephant move itself, it can move. It could move other things. It can knock down trees. But you can't. You, you can't throw the elephant at a tree to knock it down. You got to get that elephant to move under its own power. And that's the same. That's the best form of leadership. The best form of leadership isn't I'm going to push you to do something. It's like, how can I get you to do that thing on your own, under your own power? Quote from General Gray. Everyone moves on their own power, not yours. And the other thing I always fervently believed in, and I've said it 2,000 times in speeches, I've never met a Marine officer or enlisted, a good one that couldn't do 400% more if we let them. Good little quote from General Al Gray there. And now I'm just going to run into. There's a bunch of these here. Turn people loose. When asked about how he transformed to the Marine Corps, General Gray says he provided the guidance and then just turned the Marines loose. They did the rest over Supervision causes more problems. People can't grow, can't think if they're over supervised isn't it interesting to think this is like the Marine Marines. And when people think of Marines, they think of just following orders and that's the way it's going to be. And it's like, no. Develop the best in everybody. Achievement feeds on itself and creates more achievement. Powerful achievement feeds on itself. Man. This is going back to the book. The book is called. It's Malcolm Gladwell and he wrote a book, the one that talks about 10,000 hours and I can't think of the name of it right now.

[Echo Charles]

Outliers.

[Jocko Willink]

Outliers. So in Outliers, one of the key components in Outliers is like you get a kid to do good in soccer by hey, maybe because a little bit bigger, a little bit older, put him in the, maybe he's, you know, he's seven. You put him in there with the six year olds, what does he do? Kind of dominates. Like a year is a big difference. So he goes out there, dominates, scores four goals, maybe five goals. What does he want to do when he gets home?

[Echo Charles]

Play soccer.

[Jocko Willink]

Wants to play soccer, Wants to practice soccer, wants to score some more goals. So what does he do? He, he gets some achievements going to turn into more achievement as opposed to you take your 7 year old son, you put him with the 9 year olds, doesn't score any goals, kind of gets everyone's faster than him, he's slow. What does he want to get when he gets home? Play video games. So give some achievement. Achievement feeds on itself. Nice way to make things happen. Mental toughness is more important than physical toughness. It's mental toughness that gets you over the hurdle when you're exhausted. Hey, that being said, I'll throw this out there because people ask me this all the time about seal. Training is like, is it mental or physical? It's both. And it doesn't matter how mentally tough you are, if you haven't practiced climbing that freaking rope, you ain't climbing that freaking rope. That's the way it's happening. You need to, you need to be physically as hard as you can possibly be. And if you're mentally tough, you'll work that hard to get there. But having somebody that's not physically fit and thinking that they're because they're mentally tough, they're going to be able to hang with you, ain't it ain't true. It's just not true. It's just not true. That's the equivalent of dudes that are like street fighters. I see red, bro. Watch out. It's the same thing, bro. Doesn't matter what color you see, doesn't matter how mad you get. You get someone that's good at jiu jitsu or, or good at wrestling or good at boxing, and you take the big giant temper tantrum swing at him, and the good boxer just like, slip, and you're getting knocked out. You. You might even get knocked out with a straight right. Like not even a setup, not a 1, 2, 3, not a combo, no foot movement, nothing. Just crack. Like when you're an idiot and you go up against a good boxer, you're just getting KO'd. So mental toughness is important. Please do not underestimate the physical toughness as well, because doesn't matter how bad you want, it doesn't matter. Like there's, there's a, there's like some you can give to it. You know, if, if, if you took someone that was going to run, running is a good example, and they had to run as far as they could. Well, someone that is mentally weak, that runs all the time will beat someone that's mentally tough, that doesn't run.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, a mentally tough person that hasn't been, that hasn't trained for running against a non mentally tough person that hasn't trained for, obviously the mentally tough person is going to be gutted out like those blisters keep going, whatever. But the non mentally tough person, you know, Micah, she broke her leg, broke her femur at echelon front. She's running a marathon. She was like, I'm not stopping. And she was finally, I think she made it to mile 24. She had found a stick on the side of the road to try and finish. But then the doc or she's like, someone medical checked her or something, they're like, yo, you need to stop. And so she stopped. She made 24 miles. But mental toughness was good.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, solid check on the mental toughness.

[Echo Charles]

That's crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

But if she wouldn't have been mentally tough, she probably would have made it, you know, 16 miles. See what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because she gutted through. I mean, when does your femur actually break from running? You see what I'm saying? So did it, did it break at mile 19? A lot of people would have been game over right there. She gutted through it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Mentally tough. I mean, she was in the hospital. She had to get surgery. But we appreciate it. Go, Micah.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And you figure marathon, slower running. Yeah, they break, but it's not like in football or something where it's like, boom, one hit, one twist. Whatever Breaks usually.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's.

[Echo Charles]

It's not that. Unless they step in a hole or something like that. It's like stress, fracture, stress, break, break, break, crack.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know how. I don't know what the dynamics of it. Is it like. Is it like stress, stress, stress, stress, stress, crack. You know what I mean? Or is it just like stress, stress, stress, stress, stress, stress, stress.

[Echo Charles]

And. Wait a second. Let's check it. Oh, wait, that's already broken. Yeah, like, you know, 50 stress fractures on top of each other equals a break kind of a thing rather than one big break.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

All at one time.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. But I'm not sure if that's correct or not. This is our assumption.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Our assumptions that, like. Oh, it's. It doesn't just go.

[Echo Charles]

Yes. I think that's a reasonable assumption only because, you know, when you break your femur in one go, you're gonna feel that one. You're not gonna run one more step, even, no less.

[Jocko Willink]

I don't know.

[Echo Charles]

However many more miles depends on that.

[Jocko Willink]

Mental toughness depends on.

[Echo Charles]

It depends on the break, too, by the way.

[Jocko Willink]

True, true. And it depends probably on your. Yeah. On the break, where the break is, what the level of break is, how strong you are.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because if you're strong, your muscles might be able to power through a little bit more.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. You just get that good limp going. Yeah. And a lot of times, too, when you. We think I broke my femur, like, what's the image in your head? That thing is completely broken apart, you know, kind of a thing. So I. Yeah, you're right. You're right, you're right.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, we'll see. We'll. We'll dig down on that one. Next one. You must be ready to go tonight with what you have in your pocket. Okay. Little preparedness activity there. Treat people the way you'd like to be treated. Obviously. Take all the help you can get. This is an interesting one. Take all the help you can get. Boy, does that hurt the ego, doesn't it? So often it's like, I'm not. I'm not, you know, I'm. I'm. I'm okay. I'm fine. I don't need your help. No, actually, take all the help you can get. It's good attitude. Here's one that you've been hearing since third grade. Do your homework. Boy, but. Boy, but when you put that in the perspective of life. Do your freaking homework. Do your homework. Wherever two marines are, one is in charge and one is following it's. A common thing. I heard that a lot about the Marine Corps. Spend a little time every day making sure you have people who could replace you. This is why we're training our subordinate leadership. We're training our team to get up and take our place. You must train and educate your own replacement. Here's a good one. It's a poor carpenter that doesn't hit his thumb once in a while. He isn't driving many nails. The very best make mistakes. If you don't push yourself to your limits and beyond, you will limit your true potential. Yep, you're gonna get caught sometimes, you know, you train Jiu jitsu, you're gonna get tapped out sometimes. It's gonna happen.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Not if you just sit on the side.

[Jocko Willink]

If you sit on the side, you ain't getting tapped out. Yep, you sit on the side, you. That's the one way to not get tapped out. Sit over there and watch mistakes happen. The keys to learn from them. Here's. Here's one. Trains go down the tracks. You can get on or get off. Like, isn't that. That's like. Don't fight nature, right? You've got, like, the train is going down the track, and sometimes you got to look at it and be like, all right, are we going to get on this train or not? We going to get on this train or not? Because the train's going and we can't stop it. We can either get on the train or get off the train. Sometimes we think we can control more than we can. Sometimes you got to get on the train or get off the train. Make a call.

[Echo Charles]

Is so read. If you don't mind, read the quote again.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we go. Trains go down the tracks. That's the quote. And then it has a sub thing. You can get on, you can get off.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that. That. That strikes me, coincidentally, I've been thinking about this recently. We're kind of like, life just goes on, you know? And you know how you can. You know, actually you say this in times of, like, hardship, where you say, remember, don't dwell. Right. Kind of a thing. Where. So it kind of feels like that where life goes on. And the more you start harping on or dwelling on something in the past, good or bad, by the way, you know how, like, you think of that touchdown you made in high school, you know, or whatever. Good and bad, where life is going to go on, People are going to develop themselves. The world is going to change. It's like, bro, what are you. What are you doing. You still in high school making touchdowns? Or are. Are you moving forward too, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

Uncle Rico over here?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Or.

[Echo Charles]

Or in. Or. Or in bad ways, you know, where. Are you holding a grudge or are you still embarrassed about slipping and, I don't know, in freaking in the hallway or whatever, you know, kind of thing. It's like, basically, are you dwelling on something and is that holding you back from thinking about the. Actually, it. It. What sparked this thought is, I don't know this audio, but I'm trying to remember which one is audiobook. But. But it said something about, like, looking in the back versus looking forward. It was like.

[Jocko Willink]

Like the rear view mirror is only 4 inches wide.

[Echo Charles]

It was.

[Jocko Willink]

Front windshield is 4ft wide.

[Echo Charles]

It was one of those quotes, but it was like, you know, in one that I hadn't heard before. Yeah. I forget what it is, I'm sorry to say. But it was a good one. But anyway. Yeah, that's how that struck me right there where the. The train is coming down the track. What are you doing?

[Jocko Willink]

You know, to get on or get off?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like you can't stop it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Next one. Failure is an orphan. While success has many followers, we all know that one Loyalty goes down as well as up. A good plan well executed is better than a perfect plan delayed. There's patent all over that one. And then it says, the subtitle says, once things start happening, the plan goes out the window. Be ready to adapt. Whenever you make assumptions, you need an alternate plan. You can't predict the future. You can predict trends. It is. That's a really good. That's a really good note to remember, is that when you're making assumptions. Cool. You can make assumptions and you can come up with a plan, but if you got an assumption, you better put an alternate plan in place in case your assumption isn't correct. Very, very important thing. If you have any question about which alternative to choose, pick the one I told you to do. Now, here's why I like this one is because you've heard me say, Echo Charles, that I'm always looking to use your plan. Yeah, right. Like I'm looking to use your plan. Like whether you're my boss, whether you're my subordinate, whether my peer. You come to me with a plan that you got, you put together, and you want to do it this way. My goal is to do it your way. That's my goal. So if this just kind of a similar spin on that is like, oh, well, if I'm not. If I'm not sure about how to do it. And you got a good plan, let's go with it. Stay humble. People are like weapons. They have capabilities and limitations. You have to know them both. Oh, isn't that nice? Isn't that nice? There's certain times where you need a certain weapon that has a certain range on it and there's also limitations to that range and you might not want to use that weapon for that particular operation. It's the same thing with human beings. Don't be afraid to learn from others. Straightforward. And here's the last, the most lasting Grayism. Do as much good as you can for as many people as you can, for as long as you can. Outstanding. And then they have a little sub sub note here. It says an especial grazing for his very special wife, Jan Gray. When asked how he has remained married for so many years, General Gray said, tongue in cheek. You have to choose. You can be right or you can be happy. And now we get another interesting excerpt and fast forward a little bit. They have another interesting excerpt and this was from Sergeant Robert Jones.

[Echo Charles]

Rob Jones. Hell yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes. Rob Jones.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, the real Rev Jones.

[Jocko Willink]

The real Rob Jones.

[Echo Charles]

We're pulling out all the players.

[Jocko Willink]

This is like all our people. I did not write this book. Here we go. Rob Jones was still a corporal and had arrived at Bethesda only a day or two prior to General Gray's first visit to him. Rob was a recent graduate of graduate of Virginia Tech. In 2010, he had been serving in Afghanistan as a combat Engineer attached to 3rd Battalion, 7th Marines. While he was investigating the impact improvised explosive device, it exploded, leaving Rob a double amputee. But Rob has never seen an unhappy sunrise and he lifts all around him with his optimism. Good cheer. We can confirm that. There in his hospital room at Bethesda, Rob was talking quietly with his dad when an unknown but pleasant looking older gentleman in a coat and tie walked in. Hi, I'm Al Gray, the newcomer announced. Rob recalled thinking, do I know this guy? Some pleasant chit chat followed while Al Gray tried to find out everything. If everything was okay with Corporal Jones, if he needed anything, and if the doctors were taking good care of him. Finding nothing amiss, Mr. Gray shook hands with Rob's father and Rob and then handed the wounded warrior a commemorative coin that denoted the 29th Commandant, the Marine Corps. Rob studied the coin and then asked, how long have you had this? Oh, probably 20 years or so, replied Al Gray. Did you really get it from the commandant? Asked a disbelieving Rob Jones. Oh, that's me, chuckled Al Gray in response as he left. And in that way, Sergeant Robert R. Jones, United States Marine Corps, joined a mass of others who might say, who doesn't know General Al Gray? Al Gray, Marine forever continues to do as much as he can for as many as he can, for as long as he can. They are really words we can all live by. And he does live by. So there you go, Rob Jones. And I got some trading some text with Rob Jones and he was like, eat like, like all Marines of like Chesty puller. You know who Chesty Puller is. You also know who Al Gray is. And so he knew Al Gray was, but he didn't know that that was Al Gray because he was like. And he said to me, I think he sent me a text. Like I was, I was like, who's. Well, I don't know who this old dude is. I've never seen a picture of a 20 year old. You know, you see a picture of a guy that was 20 years ago when he was what, probably 60 years old. Now he's 80. He looks different. And so Rob didn't know what he looked like as an 80 year old man. So Rob's like, it wasn't my finest moment as a Marine. I'm like, dude, no one expects you to know what each commandant looks like when they're older. So there you go. Close with this section right here to U.S. marines. When General Gray first spoke, spoke after assuming command of the United States marine Corps on 30 June 1987. He spoke at length, paying tribute to his predecessor and longtime personal friend, General PX Kelly. He then turned to the Marines in parade formation, representing the entire Marine Corps, and said, quote, this great nation loves her core of Marines. They pray for us, they support us, they fund us. They also place a couple of demands on us. The nation demands that you and I and all others like us be a little bit special. The nation demands that we be the best led, the best trained, the best disciplined, particularly self disciplined force on earth. The nation demands that we teach nothing but winning in battle and in life. We can do that tonight and by God, you're going to make it happen in the years to come. God bless and Semper Fidelis. General Al Gray, Commandant of the Marine Corps 30 June 1987. So there you go. Some simple, straightforward, fundamental leadership lessons from one of the most respected leaders.

[Echo Charles]

That.

[Jocko Willink]

We'Ve known in this country for sure. So there you go. Important. If we're gonna be in Leadership position. Gotta be able to lead ourselves.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

And what that means is being smart, being knowledgeable, capturing information, turning that information into context that you can then put into action. That's being smart, being knowledgeable. Got to be healthy. Got to be strong. Gotta be strong. Look, we talked about mental fortitude.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Mental tenacity, mental toughness. Gotta have some physical toughness too. That means we're working out.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

We're getting after it. We're training. If you're training, you need fuel. We recommend jockey fuel. Hey, go to jockerfuel.com check it out. We've got all kinds of. We got everything that you need from a. From a physical and mental supplementation aspect. We got you covered. So we got energy drinks, we got protein, protein powders ready to drink protein. We got joint warfare. Time war, man. I recommend taking time war. I recommend taking joint warfare. This is. This stuff is. It's. Go read the reviews of them. It's awesome. So get this stuff. You can get [e-mail] you can also get it at Walmart. You can get a Wawa vitamin shop, military commissaries. Aphe's Hannaford Dash Doors in Maryland, Wakefern, shoprite, HEB down in Texas, Meijer in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris Teeter. We're now in Publix down in the Southeast. Lifetime fitness shields, small gyms everywhere. So check it out. If you don't have it in your small gym or your gym, email JF [e-mail] we'll get you. You need good fuel. You need clean fuel to go along with your hard work and your lack of excuses. Go to jockerfield.com check that out. Also, we're training Jiu jitsu. Look, you can use the ecological approach if you want to. It's fine.

[Echo Charles]

I don't.

[Jocko Willink]

It's fine.

[Echo Charles]

I'm still curious about the ecological approach and when to implement it because I still. I. And I'm. I thought about for a second and I thought all that. I don't know how that's a. The best approach, but I was thinking from like zero from white belt. But I think after a while it might be very beneficial.

[Jocko Willink]

And my assessment would be that there are times when it's very beneficial and there's times when you should do it and there's times you should gamify it and there's times where you should put. There's another big thing is they put conditional restrictions on what you can and can like you're not allowed to do this, but you can do this like so you can set conditions for to learn a certain way. I believe it's a. There's a lot of benefits to it, but there's also a lot of benefits to showing a move and drilling it like. So I think you got to use both. You gotta have an open mind. That's where I'm at.

[Echo Charles]

I dig it. Yeah, man. So the e. You know, situational training.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh yeah, for sure.

[Echo Charles]

Basically it's essentially a more specific version of that or a specific like approach to that which you can be like.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, you win when you get to their left side or when whatever. You can set up all kinds of things.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So you just over index on these very specific situations. So now when you're in a full role or competition or whatever, it's like when that situation comes up, you're like, you have so much experience.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And there's like all this, you know, research around the methodology that you learn and how you learn faster by doing than you do from observing. Well, again to your point, if you're count as zero knowledge and you just try and watch and learn, it's going to be much more difficult than when you. It's like when you teach a class to purple belts, they can pick up a new move very quickly compared to white belts who are like, you know, they don't understand anything. So yes, not to get. But I'll give you some videos to watch and you can go down the rabbit, the ecological training rabbit hole if you want to. I'll. I'll send you down there. But speaking of Jiu Jitsu, we're training Jiu Jitsu. If you're training Jiu Jitsu, you need Jiu jitsu gear. Origin USA.com American made gear. American made. By the way, we've always been doing American made gear. Get Jiu Jitsu, Geese get rash guards. Get shorts. Get everything that you need for Jiu belts. Everything that you need. Origin USA.com also jeans, also T shirts, also hoodies, also boots. New boots are awesome by the way.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, I believe so.

[Jocko Willink]

Do you have a pair yet?

[Echo Charles]

No, afraid not.

[Jocko Willink]

You just judging off the appearance from what I see. Yeah, they're. They're freaking great. Check it out. Origin USA.com we're not using slave labor. We're not paying people slave wages. We're not got them in sweat shops and dangerous situations. No, we're taking care of our workers who have trades, who are craftsmen, who are making things happen here in America. Support America. Support our manufacturing. We brought manufacturing I'm bringing it back. We brought it back. We're here. OriginUSA.com. check it out.

[Echo Charles]

You know, you ever heard of. I forget that. Actually, I don't even know the name of it, so I can't ask you if you ever heard of it. But this idea of the company paying their employees with, like, company credits that they can spend on only company stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah. That was like the old school day.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. In indentured servitude. So Origin doesn't pay with origin credits.

[Jocko Willink]

You can rent your. Yeah. You can use in the vending machine that we own. No, it's not like that.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, cool, cool.

[Jocko Willink]

Check also.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, also. Ja store called Jaco Store. This is where you can get your apparel while you want to. While you're representing discipline equals freedom. Or should I say the apparel that represents discipline equals freedom. Monarch journey on our path. Whether you're training jiu jitsu or just living life, I'm saying living life on the path with. Along with that, it comes the. What we call the shirt locker. It's a subscription snail. New design every. Every month. Hell yeah. A little bit outside the box. As far as, you know, the. The messages, the designs and stuff, but people seem to like it anyway. It's all injocko store.com. check it out. Like something. Get something.

[Jocko Willink]

Also, you need steak. Go to primalbeef.com or coloradocraftbeef.com we got awesome human beings making, producing, outstanding steak. Go check out their websites and then get some. You need steak in your life. You need jerky in your life. I just had some. Some teriyaki jerky from Primal Beef. It's so good. So good. Yes, but the only thing that's bad about is you can kill a bag in like a heartbeat. But yeah, check it out. Then you got the beef sticks. So you go back and forth between beef sticks from Colorado craft beef and beef jerky from Primal Beef. But the steaks, simple. Just what you need. Awesome people, awesome companies, awesome steaks. Also, check out and subscribe to Jocko underground.com, which is where we have our own little platform. That way we don't get controlled by anyone. We can do what we want. So check that out. Also, we got YouTube channels. We got Psychological Warfare. We got a bunch of books. I've written a bunch of books. Adult books. Adult leadership books. Yeah. When I say adult books, always people. It's a weird thing to say. Well, we got books about leadership.

[Echo Charles]

If you see store in the corner.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, store. Yeah. It's not. Doesn't. I don't write books. My books are not in there. I, I write books. Some of my books are for adults and some of them are for children. The adult books. There's no way around this. No, just say kids books and, and books. All right, so I've written a bunch of books. Some of them are kids books. So check them out. The kids books are awesome. They're getting turned into a movie. Yeah, the movie has been filmed. It's wrapped, as they say. It is in post production at this time. So the movie is called Way of the Warrior Kid. But it's gonna takes a while for these things to come out. But you don't have to wait. You can just go buy the series, Way of the Warrior Kid. Check that out. Also, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. All the problems that you have in your life are leadership problems. All the problems that you have in your business are leadership problems. All problems are leadership problems. And you solve those problems through leadership. And luckily, leadership is a skill that you can learn. We just learned some from General Al Gray. We teach leadership principles to you. Go to ashlomfront.com if you need us inside your organization or if you want to come to one of our events. Next big event, we've got, we've got the battlefield. We're going to go walk the Gettysburg battlefield. You heard from JD today. You're going to hear from JD at the battlefield. It's freaking outstanding. Go listen to the Civil War podcast I did with him and then come to the battlefield with us and walk the battlefield at Gettysburg. Learn those lessons. We also have the MUSTER Coming up April 29th through May 1st in San Antonio, Texas, where we have an intensive leadership course. You can bring people in your company, get your whole team aligned. Check those out. Echelonfront.com we also have the Extreme Ownership Academy, where we teach these principles online. Bunch of courses you can take. There's a couple free courses. Just check the free ones out. You don't have to buy anything. Go get the free courses, learn them. They'll be so helpful in everything that you do. Extreme ownership dot com. Check that out. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want help? Gold star families. Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee, she's an incredible woman. She started an incredible organization. After we lost Mark. After she lost Mark. After we lost Mark. First SEAL killed in Iraq. Just an incredible human being. And what did she do? She turned it into something awesome, something good. And that is America's mighty warriors.org where she helps out so many veterans and so many people. Check that out if you want to donate or you want to get involved. Also check out heroes and horses.org and finally, Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood.org and if you want to connect with us, I'[e-mail] I'm also on social media at Jocko Willink Echoes at Echo. Charles, Just be careful because the algorithm will kill you. It'll take all your time and you'll end up with nothing. So don't let that happen. Also thanks all our uniformed personnel out there with a solemn salute to our Marines, the few and the proud. You set an outstanding standard and we are thankful for your service and sacrifice. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, Secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for protecting us here at home and everyone else out there. From General Al Gray, 29th Commandant of the United States Marine Corps, words to live by. Take what you get, make what you want. Take what you get, make what you want. That's all I've got for tonight and until next time. This is Echo and Jocko out.