484: It Might Not Go The Way You Want. With Navy SEAL Command Master Chief, Jim Foreman. - Jocko Podcast

Transcript

Jocko Willink (0:00)

This is Jocko, podcast number 484 with Echo, Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

Echo Charles (0:05)

Good evening.

Jocko Willink (0:06)

All day, murderous bursts of machine gun fire hammered our position, shattering windows and impacting interior walls. Each round with the violence and kinetic energy of a sledgehammer wielded at full force. Some of the incoming rounds were armor piercing and punched through the thick concrete of the low wall surrounding the rooftop. All of our element of seals, EOD bomb technicians and Iraqi soldiers could do under such accurate enem was hit the deck and try not to get our heads shot off. Rounds snapped inches above us and shards of glass and concrete fragments rained down everywhere. Damn, some of those bastards can shoot. Yelled a SEAL operator. Pressed as close to the floor as humanly possible, we couldn't help but laugh at our predicament. RPG 7 rockets have followed in rapid sequence of 3 or 4, exploding with tremendous concussion against the exterior walls. Hunkered down inside the building, we were separated from the bone jarring explosion and deadly shrapnel by a foot or so of concrete. One errant RPG rocket missed its mark and sailed high over the building, trailing across the hazy, cloudless Iraqi summer sky like a bottle rocket on an American fourth of July. But if just one of those rockets impacted a window, it meant red hot fragments of jagged metal ripping through just about every man in the room. Despite the onslaught, we held our position in the large four story apartment building. When the fury of the attack subsided, our SEAL snipers returned fire with devastating effect. As armed enemy fighters maneuvered through the streets to attack, SEAL snipers squeezed off round after round with deadly accuracy, confirming 10 enemy fighters killed and a handful more probable kills. And that right there is an excerpt from a book called Extreme Ownership, which was written by Leif Babin and me. And that section, which was written by Leif, displays and shows and talks about not only the level of violence delivered by the enemy, which was significant, but also the effectiveness of our SEAL snipers. And on that particular operation, it wasn't just SEALs from task unit Bruiser. We had some help on that one. And one of the best things about being in the teams is obviously working with the best guys the world. It's also very random because you can be in the SEAL teams and you can be on a different cycle from someone else and you might not see that other person for months or years or sometimes even decades, but you still know them and you know their reputation and you track what people are doing, you hear stories, you read after actions reports, you see their name pop up on. On the advancement lists. But time goes by, and then for whatever reason, you happen to end up on the same battlefield at the same time, and you get to work with them for a day or two days or a week or a month, and get to do what we all joined to do. And you get to confirm that they are who you thought they were and their reputation is well earned and that they're frogman. And then they're gone again. And you continue to track their progress in their career through the stories and the advancement lists, and you continue to see them do great things, and you feel proud to know. And that's the teams. And when I was at Seal Team 1, there was a guy who checked in and quickly earned an awesome reputation. He fit in very well with the culture of Seal Team 1 at the time, which was Stalag Team 1. Very strict, very tough, very hard charging, very operationally focused, and probably overly professional in many aspects. But he knocked out a few platoons there, became a respected operator and a sniper. And when I went the officer route, he went to the Navy's Special Mission Unit, the maritime component of the Joint Special Operations Command, jsoc. And he made it through selection there and became a. An operator combat leader in the global war on terror. And fast forward almost a decade from after we left Seal Team 1, and that's when we were in Ramadi, and he was able to join our task unit on some missions to see exactly what we were doing and how we were doing it. And we all got to see his professionalism, his expertise, his humility. I like to think that that was some shared roots from that time that we spent at Seal Team 1 with BTF Tony as well. But he continued on his career path. He eventually completed 27 years in the SEAL teams, conducted 18 combat deployments, served as a team leader, Troop Chief, Squadron Master Chief, Chief of Selection Assessment Training Chief. And during that time, he was awarded the Silver Star, eight Bronze Stars, Purple Heart, and five Presidential Unit Citations. And this individual's name is Jim Foreman. And it's an honor to have him here with us tonight to share some of his experiences and lessons learned. Jim, good to see you, man. Thanks for coming out.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast Episode 484 – "It Might Not Go The Way You Want" with Navy SEAL Command Master Chief Jim Foreman

Introduction

In episode 484 of the Jocko Podcast, host Jocko Willink, along with co-host Echo Charles, welcomes Navy SEAL Command Master Chief Jim Foreman. Jim shares his extensive 27-year career in the Navy SEALs, encompassing 18 combat deployments, leadership roles, and invaluable lessons learned from both the battlefield and his transition to civilian life.

Early Life and Joining the SEALs

Jim Foreman hails from Fremont in the Bay Area of Northern California. Growing up with a twin brother and an older sister, Jim was actively involved in sports such as football, wrestling, and track and field during his high school years. An injury during his wrestling career led him to shift his focus to football, but academic challenges persisted, resulting in a suspension from Chabot College due to poor grades.

Notable Quote:

“I was bored. I think I got bad grades because I was bored.” [07:12]

Inspired by his brother and influenced by stories of Navy SEALs from his uncle, Jim decided to enlist in the Marine Corps. However, after recovering from a torn ACL, he shifted his aspirations towards becoming a SEAL, ultimately joining the Navy in 1991.

SEAL Training and Selection

Jim details the grueling SEAL training process, highlighting the intense physical and mental challenges of BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL training). He recounts failing the pool competition during dive phase but successfully passing on a subsequent attempt. The selection process emphasized not just physical prowess but unwavering mental resilience.

Notable Quote:

“This is people that don't quit. This is... they make you look like a CEO just by the amount of push-ups and sit-ups and running, all that stuff.” [20:36]

He emphasizes that SEAL training refines both body and mind, filtering out those who lack the mental fortitude essential for elite operations.

Deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan

Jim Foreman’s deployments spanned critical operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. During the Iraq invasion in 2003, he was involved in deep penetration missions aimed at dismantling insurgent networks. He discusses the strategic impact of targeting high-value individuals and the complexities of urban warfare, particularly in Ramadi.

Notable Quote:

“Things are not going to go the way you think they're going to go. They're just not.” [63:49]

In Afghanistan, Jim led sniper teams tasked with tracking and capturing war criminals and terrorists. He highlights the evolving threat landscape, including the rise of sophisticated IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices) that significantly increased the operational tempo and dangers faced by SEAL teams.

Leadership Lessons and Experiences

A pivotal theme of the conversation revolves around leadership in high-stakes environments. Jim Foreman shares insights on the importance of clear roles and responsibilities within teams, the necessity of adaptability, and the critical role of mentorship. He underscores that effective leadership ensures mission success and team cohesion, even amidst immense pressure and adversity.

Notable Quote:

“You have to know your job, your lanes, but you also got to know one above you and one below you.” [97:24]

He also discusses the dichotomy of leadership, balancing decisiveness with humility, and the significance of owning one’s actions to foster accountability and continuous improvement within teams.

Transition to Leadership Roles

As Jim advanced in his career, he assumed more significant leadership roles, including becoming a Master Chief and leading training cells. He developed Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) to clarify leadership roles and enhance operational efficiency. His efforts in training and leadership development were aimed at empowering junior leaders and ensuring that mission-critical tasks were executed flawlessly.

Notable Quote:

“You have to lead by example. Especially if you're pushing the mental toughness, you gotta be out there doing the training.” [97:24]

Coping with Retirement and Mental Health

After retiring in 2018, Jim faced the common challenges of transitioning to civilian life, including a divorce and the struggle to find new purpose outside of the military. He turned to art therapy as a means of processing his experiences, creating paintings that helped him confront and reconcile with his past. This creative outlet facilitated a deeper understanding of his emotions and the accountability he held for past missions.

Notable Quote:

“That painting took four years to do. It was significant because... I had some accountability for what happened.” [112:23]

Jim emphasizes the importance of self-forgiveness and the need to compartmentalize experiences to maintain mental resilience.

Post-Retirement Activities and Legacy

In his post-military career, Jim Foreman has remained active in leadership and consulting through ventures like Pharaoh Concepts and Active Crisis Consulting. He also founded Actions on Consulting, focusing on leadership and tactical training. Additionally, Jim is authoring a book that distills his leadership experiences and lessons learned, aiming to provide actionable insights for both military personnel and civilians.

Notable Quote:

“We have a lot of lessons learned. It's about holding the line and being a true frogman.” [142:22]

Jim highlights the significance of mentorship and continuous learning, stressing that effective leadership transcends the battlefield and is essential in all aspects of life.

Notable Quotes

“This is people that don't quit. This is... they make you look like a CEO just by the amount of push-ups and sit-ups and running, all that stuff.” – Jim Foreman [20:36]
“You have to know your job, your lanes, but you also got to know one above you and one below you.” – Jim Foreman [97:24]
“Things are not going to go the way you think they're going to go. They're just not.” – Jim Foreman [63:49]
“I had to have some stuff standard and I need this guy on board. So a lot of things like that, like corporations don't understand sometimes that like, hey, it's not just your department heads. You need to find your key influencers and sometimes they may be a counter influencer that's against you.” – Jim Foreman [131:42]

Conclusion

Episode 484 of the Jocko Podcast offers an in-depth exploration of Navy SEAL Command Master Chief Jim Foreman's illustrious career, leadership philosophy, and personal journey. Jim's experiences underscore the relentless pursuit of excellence, the critical importance of leadership in high-pressure environments, and the challenges of transitioning to civilian life. His insights provide valuable lessons on discipline, accountability, and the enduring impact of mentorship, making this episode a compelling listen for those seeking to understand the intricacies of elite military leadership and personal resilience.