487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy". With Bobby Holland.

Summary

Jocko Podcast Episode 487: What We All Can Learn From Being a "New Guy" with Bobby Holland

Released on April 23, 2025

In Episode 487 of the Jocko Podcast, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink engages in a profound conversation with fellow SEAL veteran and entrepreneur Bobby Holland. Titled "What We All Can Learn From Being a 'New Guy'," the episode delves into the foundational principles of discipline, leadership, and personal growth, drawing parallels between military life and civilian endeavors.

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Introduction to the "New Guy" Mindset

Jocko Willink opens the discussion by addressing a common query among new SEAL recruits: "What can I do to be a good new guy in a platoon?" He emphasizes that the traits required to excel as a new SEAL are universally applicable to being a good human being.

Jocko Willink [00:05]: "Being a good new guy in a SEAL platoon is actually the same as being a good human being."

Bobby Holland echoes this sentiment, highlighting that fundamental principles learned as a new SEAL extend far beyond military applications.

Bobby Holland [02:23]: "They're fundamentals that last a lifetime."

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Core Principles for Success

The conversation unfolds around several key mantras instilled in new SEALs, which Jocko and Bobby assert are essential for success in any field.

1. Keep Your Mouth Shut, Keep Your Ears Open

Jocko recounts his first day at SEAL Team 1, where the Command Master Chief delivered a stern message to the new recruits:

Jocko Willink [05:00]: "...keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open, don't be late, don't forget any gear."

This mantra underscores the importance of humility and active listening. Jocko stresses that leadership positions require even more listening rather than speaking.

Jocko Willink [07:06]: "If you can't show up on time, like can we count on you? That's a problem."

Bobby Holland adds that punctuality reflects one's dedication and reliability to the team.

Bobby Holland [07:17]: "It's kind of a betrayal to the team, you know, just signals that you aren't prioritizing your life accordingly."

2. Look for Work

Transitioning into the idea of decentralized command, Jocko explains that a good SEAL doesn't wait to be directed but proactively seeks tasks to support the mission.

Bobby Holland [16:04]: "You do your primary scan, secondary scan, and then you're looking around with your eyeballs looking for work."

This principle fosters initiative and ensures that every team member contributes effectively without waiting for orders.

3. Be Teachable and Eager to Learn

Both hosts highlight the significance of maintaining a learner’s mindset. Jocko shares how using a notebook to jot down instructions not only helps in retaining information but also signals attentiveness.

Jocko Willink [21:40]: "It is such a good sign when one of my subordinates goes, 'Hey, let me just make sure I understand what you're saying.'"

Bobby Holland reinforces this by sharing experiences of how being open to learning transformed leadership effectiveness.

Bobby Holland [23:39]: "People that were teachable and eager to learn would perform outstanding."

4. The Hard Way is the Right Way

Jocko narrates a harrowing experience during hydrographic reconnaissance where his team chose to follow protocol despite extreme fatigue and adverse conditions.

Jocko Willink [30:49]: "You gotta do the right thing. And no Marines, never would have known."

This anecdote illustrates the uncompromising nature of proper procedures and the long-term benefits of adhering to established protocols.

5. Don't Make the Same Mistake Twice

Acknowledging that mistakes are inevitable, both Jocko and Bobby emphasize the importance of owning up to errors and ensuring they are not repeated.

Bobby Holland [32:22]: "You got to own it. You got to own the shit out of it."

Jocko shares a poignant story about a fellow SEAL's honesty with a Master Chief, reinforcing the value of transparency and accountability.

Jocko Willink [34:22]: "Just tell the truth. Own it."

6. Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast

This principle advocates for deliberate and controlled actions over haste, ensuring precision and effectiveness.

Bobby Holland [42:16]: "Smooth and deliberate in some of the decisions that you're making. So you're not being hasty and emotional."

Both hosts relate this to decision-making processes, where taking a moment to assess situations can prevent costly mistakes.

7. Attention to Detail

Attention to detail is portrayed as a cornerstone of reliability. Jocko recounts scenarios where overlooked details led to operational failures, emphasizing that every small aspect contributes to the bigger picture.

Jocko Willink [73:52]: "How you do anything is how you do everything."

Bobby adds that meticulousness not only builds personal reputation but is essential for effective leadership.

Bobby Holland [75:32]: "If you don't know the details, you can't really lead that."

8. Be a Good Follower

Understanding the value of being a good follower is presented as equally important as leadership. Bobby shares insights on respecting the chain of command and supporting team leaders effectively.

Bobby Holland [75:38]: "You gotta be a good follower. Learn the mission. Get yourself informed, get plugged in."

Jocko complements this by highlighting how being a reliable team member enhances overall mission success.

Jocko Willink [84:14]: "If you can count on this dude to be here at this time with the right gear, a hundred percent, that is huge in its own right."

9. Maintain Your Body and Mind

Physical and mental conditioning are intertwined aspects of maintaining peak performance. Both hosts advocate for continuous training and learning to ensure readiness and adaptability.

Bobby Holland [90:13]: "Train and maintain both. If you keep staying, you keep in shape."

Jocko underscores the necessity of consistent physical training to prevent decline.

Jocko Willink [50:28]: "You gotta fight it every day, you gotta get it done every day, you gotta move every day."

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Applying Military Principles to Civilian Life

Throughout the episode, Jocko and Bobby draw parallels between SEAL training and civilian life, illustrating how the disciplined mindset developed in the military can lead to success in business, personal relationships, and everyday challenges.

Bobby Holland discusses his transition from the SEAL teams to entrepreneurship with Hooligolf, emphasizing the importance of being adaptable and proactive in learning new skills.

Bobby Holland [24:00]: "I'm doing all these things. I had to ask for help... I'm wearing all these hats."

Jocko Willink relates this to the broader concept of continuous improvement and the ability to pivot when necessary, a trait essential for both warriors and entrepreneurs.

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Closing Thoughts and Takeaways

As the episode concludes, Jocko and Bobby reinforce the importance of integrating these fundamental principles into daily life. They advocate for:

• Discipline Equals Freedom: Maintaining discipline in small tasks leads to greater freedom and success.
• Extreme Ownership: Taking full responsibility for one's actions fosters trust and reliability.
• Prioritize and Execute: Identifying the most critical tasks and tackling them systematically ensures mission success.

Jocko Willink [122:05]: "Learn and maintain both. Train and move."

The episode serves as a comprehensive guide for anyone looking to adopt a disciplined and proactive approach to personal and professional growth, inspired by the rigorous training and unwavering principles of Navy SEALs.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jocko Willink [00:05]: "Being a good new guy in a SEAL platoon is actually the same as being a good human being."
• Bobby Holland [02:23]: "They're fundamentals that last a lifetime."
• Jocko Willink [05:00]: "...keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open, don't be late, don't forget any gear."
• Bobby Holland [07:17]: "It's kind of a betrayal to the team, you know, just signals that you aren't prioritizing your life accordingly."
• Jocko Willink [07:06]: "If you can't show up on time, like can we count on you? That's a problem."
• Jocko Willink [21:40]: "It is such a good sign when one of my subordinates goes, 'Hey, let me just make sure I understand what you're saying.'"
• Bobby Holland [32:22]: "You got to own it. You got to own the shit out of it."
• Jocko Willink [34:22]: "Just tell the truth. Own it."
• Bobby Holland [42:16]: "Smooth and deliberate in some of the decisions that you're making. So you're not being hasty and emotional."
• Jocko Willink [73:52]: "How you do anything is how you do everything."
• Bobby Holland [75:32]: "If you don't know the details, you can't really lead that."
• Jocko Willink [50:28]: "You gotta fight it every day, you gotta get it done every day, you gotta move every day."

---

Conclusion

This episode of the Jocko Podcast offers invaluable insights into the mindset and principles that underpin both military excellence and personal success. By embracing the roles and responsibilities of a "new guy," individuals can cultivate discipline, humility, and proactive leadership that transcend traditional boundaries.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 487, with Echo Charles, and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

So I got asked a question the other day. What can I do to be a good new guy in a platoon? And. And this is a pretty common question, because when you show up at a SEAL team, you. You want to be a good guy. But as I thought about answering that question, being a good new guy in a SEAL platoon is actually the same as being a good human being, right? Yeah. And listen, being a new good new guy in a SEAL platoon, there's some things, right? You got to have weapons proficiency, you know, you want to be a good shot. You got to have tactical knowledge. You got to. You got to learn how to utilize terrain. You got to know your demo. Like, there's some skills that you need, but beyond those skills of the job, to be a good seal, to be a good frogman, you gotta have more than just the skills. And so as I thought about the things that I was told when I was a new guy, because you're gonna get guidance. What's that thing they say now? Unrequested guidance, unsolicited advice. You're gonna get some of that. But I'll tell you what, some of that stuff that I got told and that young new guys get told and that then I told and other older guys told the new guys, it's stuff that is. Can be very powerful if you take it to heart and you carry it through. And some of those things carry through my entire life. And so I wanted. As I started thinking about some of those things, I wanted to do a little podcast about things that land on you as a new guy that you can carry through your whole career. And so I actually reached out to Bobby Holland, Lead Bob, who was retired. He's a retired SEAL. He's a member of the E5 mafia and task unit. Bruiser went on to be a platoon lpo, a platoon chief, eventually became a warrant officer, retired after 21 years in the teams. He was on podcast 416 originally, and if you want to hear his backstory, then go listen to podcast 416. He's now the founder and the CEO of Hooligolf. Making what? Badass apparel for badass people.

[Bobby Holland]

That's it.

[Jocko Willink]

Hooligolf.com. yeah, that's what. That's what Lead Bob is doing now. But like me, he once was a new guy, and then he raised new guys. And so, Bob, we're gonna talk about some of that, then come back.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, man. Thank you for having me back. And I look forward to having this kind of conversation, man. It's, you know, something especially with where I'm at now. It's very much in my headspace because I'm basically a new guy all over again.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, how long ago did you. Did you retire?

[Bobby Holland]

Summer of 21.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Bobby Holland]

It's been a couple years.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah. And it really is the new guy. Some of the new guy mantras that if you keep those in your head, it will make everything better. It really will.

[Bobby Holland]

They're fundamentals that last a lifetime. Yeah. And you sometimes don't realize until you're thrust back right into that mode.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, look, there's principles of combat leadership that we talk about all the time. Cover. Move. Simple. Prioritize. Next, you decentralized command. The things that you've heard me say a million times, discipline equals freedom. The, the, the attitude of extreme ownership. Those are clearly things that are fundamental to everything that I've done, and those are the things that I passed on. But there's like some brass tax things that you hear when you're a new guy that stick with you. Now I gotta tell you the story about me being a new guy. I was with a couple other new guys. We were checking into SEAL Team 1 and we had to go see the Master Chief. And we, we walked into the Master Chief's office and the Command Master Chief and we were, we were actually standing at attention outside of his office. And he called us and he's like, get in here. And so we go in, we're standing at attention in front of his desk, and he points at each one of us one at a time, and he goes, you, you, you. And I was like, said, everyone here has made it through training. No one gives a that you made it. It doesn't mean you have to earn your trident here and you have to earn your reputation. Get the out of here. And we were like, okay. So that's. That's my first day at SEAL Team 1 from the command Master Chief. And what a way to take look when you're coming out of buds. You know, you've been told that this is the most difficult training in the US Military, and you made it. And they put a big American flag up behind you and you, you know, you. We didn't get our tridents, but you graduated buds, man. So you're feeling good and you might be feeling a little bit cocky. Well, Master Chief took that right out of us. So we had that happen. And then a couple days later we had all the new guys that had now checked in. Maybe it was a few weeks later, but, you know, guys were on leave or whatever, I think. Do we go to jump school? Yeah, we had already. So we went to jump school. So we had gone to jump school in Fort Benning, Georgia and then traveled back across the country. Guys are showing up in ones, twos and threes or whatever. So finally we get all the new guys, we all get assembled and we get our various indoctrination briefs from whoever. But the mass chief comes in again and he, he says, keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open, don't be late, don't forget any gear. And he left. That's, that's all he said. Keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open, don't be late, don't forget any gear. So cool. Again, his first statement. Keep your mouth shut. Keep your ears open. What a. It's so, it's like, you know, you hear that all the time, right? Keep your mouth shut, Keep your ears open. What he's saying is be humble and listen. And to this day, listen, listen, listen, listen is so important. And you think when you're in a leadership position that's time you run your mouth. Nope, it's actually time you listen more. So keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open, be humble. The next one, don't be late. Now, I was always very paranoid about being late. I would not be late. I would rather be five hours early when than 30 seconds late for something. The only waiver I gave myself on that one was when I was going to college. I was going to college with another team guy, the University of San Diego. And the parking was so difficult to get, but you might get lucky and get a parking spot or you'd have to get there two hours early. And so we had, we like shook hands and made a deal because he was a squared away guy too. And we were like, okay, listen, I'll be here around 10. It might be 10:08, it might be 1004. And he's like, I get it. So occasionally you give a waiver like that, but I think if you're late, it's just such a reflection of kind of, of everything. You know what I mean?

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, it's kind of a betrayal to the team, you know, just signals that you.

[Jocko Willink]

Straight up betrayal. Bobby's going hot, dude. Betrayal.

[Bobby Holland]

Aren't prioritizing your life accordingly. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

If you can't show up on time, like can we count on you? That's, that's a problem. Maybe, you know, I got that thing where I say, if you can't control your temper, right. How can you control anything? Well, if you can't show up on time, how can you execute a mission? Well, there was traffic. Well, didn't you plan for that, bro? We all had traffic or whatever the case may be. It's kind of a. It's kind of a sign of bad judgment. It's kind of a sign of a lack of understanding of the way the world works.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. Or it just may signal that you don't give a shit. As a new guy, you're not. That's not really a good signal. You want to put out to the team.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Well, remember Tony used to say everything takes a half an hour.

[Bobby Holland]

I know. And I was thinking this morning, we both showed up 15 minutes early. So I think, you know, Tony is the 30 minute standard and everyone else probably 15 minutes.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

Unless it's something really, really important, like you said. I mean, there's certain things that you just can't be laid on that you can wait around two hours. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And there's. There's also something in the Navy which is pretty important. It's missing movement.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Which is like a ship leaves and you're not on it. And if that happens, bro, you're in big trouble.

[Bobby Holland]

Maybe 30 minutes early for that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You want to be 30 minutes early for. You don't want to miss movement at all. So that's really important. And then the third thing was don't forget any gear, which again, if you're forgetting gear, it's kind of a reflection of just sort of you. Right. Like you had. You forgot this thing. The other thing I think is important about that is you can't go back in time and get that thing. Like, when you don't have something, it's. It's too late. And missing one piece of gear is. Can really disrupt an operation, depending on what's missing. I had actually Gif. Remember Gif was on the podcast?

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, he was. We were both new guys together. We were both radio men. And one time he forgot something. He forgot. I forget if he forgot a antenna or an antenna base or something that was very critical to making communications. And he came to me afterwards and gift. Forgive me for blasting you right now, but he came to. He. The credit to him was he came to me was like, bro, I forgot this thing. And. And I don't remember. Maybe he had a secondary. And he was like, hey, I forgot one, but thank God I had a second. Or maybe he just didn't make comms, but either way, it was like, because GIF was squared away. So for him to forget something, it made me even more hyper paranoid about making sure I had my gear.

[Bobby Holland]

So, you know, a lot of people see the sexy stuff that we do and, you know, highly choreographed, whatever. A lot of people don't see the behind the scenes and the very simple things we do that seem like redundant and kind of ridiculous. But one of the things Tony and I used to do. So on that Ramadi deployment, every single time before we went out on an op, every single op, we went out, we looked at each other and we went helmet nods, primary, secondary. We went through our whole load out there because, yeah, you can't be stepping out the door, missing something critical, whether that's for, you know, for the team effort or for you to fight as an individual. So it seems really, really basic. But, yeah, you got to. Got to make sure you have all your stuff. And, you know, two is one, one is none. Have some redundancy there. You know, I'm not. I'm not ruling out on an op with one battery that's in my nods. No, you know, or laser or whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

And one thing that I did that was cool is I would have, like, all my gear staged on a cot. So, yeah, when the cot was empty, I had my gear that was sort of like the preliminary check. Now, actually, this happened on my deployment, my first deployment to Iraq. I was out on this op, and I, I. We were rushed to leave. I think it was a tst, whatever excuse you want to throw at it. But as we're out there, I'm like. All of a sudden, I felt my back pocket. So on. On your cami pants, the old cami pants, there was a back pocket that had a button on it so you could, like, seal the thing. And that's where I would keep my blood chit. And, like, I had like $200 cash in there, and I had my military idea, had like one of those little plastic see through things, and I'm out there and I'm like, dude, I don't have that with me right now. And I was so pissed at myself, and I was like, how did I do this? And it was, like, mind boggling to me. And luckily, you know, that's stuff that you only need in a really extreme situation. Luckily we came back. But what had happened was my back pocket had, like, folded up when I put my pants on, and it was actually just tucked up under my waist. So I had it. But it was one of those things where I got away with it gave me the guilty feeling that I had screwed up, and I became even more paranoid.

[Bobby Holland]

So, yeah, I say I have nightmares like. Like, no shit. I remember being a platoon chief because the last thing you want to be is the, you know, digged up platoon chief who's forgetting his stuff. So I would have this recurring dream to where, like, I forgot my gun and I'm on a mission. You know, the guys are looking at me and I'm just like.

[Jocko Willink]

That'S. That's the nightmare. That's the true nightmare. So that was kind of like, we'll get in some more of mine. But those are. Some of the. Those are the first things that I remember when I got to the team was you, you, you. And then, keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open, don't be late, don't forget any gear. And those things right there clued me in for the whole career to this day. Don't be late, don't be. Forget any gear, keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open. Those are. Those. That is outstanding advice for a new guy in a SEAL platoon, and it's outstanding advice for any human being out there. And I still check my gear. I'm still. I'm a little bit too paranoid. You know what I mean? A little bit too paranoid. Echo, you seem to be nodding enthusiastically at that.

[Echo Charles]

I know what you mean.

[Jocko Willink]

Check. All right, so let's get into some of your. Some of your stuff. What do you got?

[Bobby Holland]

Look for work.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, so. Good one.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. This originates for folks listening, and this is a kill house term. At least it was when we were coming up. I'm not sure if it still is, but essentially what that means from the team guy parlance is you do your primary scan, secondary scan, and then you're looking around with your eyeballs looking for work. So you're looking for people that need help. You know, you may have someone who's dealing with an unknown, wrestling in an unknown. They're dropping something else that you're going to have to draw down on. So you're looking for work. And, you know, obviously that beyond the kill house, that just applies to all sorts of things in life, you know, business, just everything, just being a part of a team. You know, do your job, look around. If you're committed to the team and the mission, um, you know, put them above yourself. Uh, and yeah, that's. That's honed in. I mean, man in buds, you know, it's just. It's hammered everything we do, every evolution that we have, there's a, there's, there's a post op to be done. Um, you know, there's, there's work that needs to be done. We got to clean the boats, we got to clean this. And it's, it's very easy. If you're looking very narrow focused, like, oh, I'm good, my gear's good, I'm gonna go turn in.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, that's bad.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, yeah, very bad.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's bad. You know, there's, there's a little bit of decentralized command. This is sort of a, this is sort of the new guy version of decentralized command. Like, hey, dude, step up and look for work. Oh, you get into a perimeter and you're carrying a 60, don't wait for someone to tell you what to do. Go find a little bit of high ground or find that little null, find that piece of COVID and set up your position. And the reason this comes out is because when, and it usually is directed at new guys in the beginning because you're coming out of buds, you're in a platoon, you're so used to being told what to do. But that is not a good seal. A good SEAL is not a robot that has to be directed on what to do. A good SEAL looks for work and goes and executes on it. That's what a good frogman is going to do. And so that's why you'd hear like guys up in the rafters in the kill house going, you know, hey, look for work, look for work. And you see a guy that's a, he's just standing there with his gun at the low ready, not doing anything. Well, like you said, there's a security threat that needs to be picked up. There's a hallway that needs to be held. There's a, there's a person that needs to get cuffed. There's all these other things that are happening and you have to look for work. And the extreme example is like, you don't want to be the guy with your hands in your pockets as freaking a pallet is being unloaded. Like, you don't want to be that guy. You want to be freaking working. And there's always work to be done. So it's a good one.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. And you know, in the teams, if you're not that guy, you are going to suffer. Like, you're not going to get away with that. And that can find its way in many forms. But, you know, I was also thinking about the base principle of that. It's. I mean helping your teammate and you know, one, one story I didn't get to tell last time I was on, which I think this applies to just being a really solid teammate, is a time when Leif helped me out when I was going down. And I mean that like in the literal sense, but you know, looking, looking for your teammates when they're struggling, trying to find ways to help them out in this.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, this heat exhaustion.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

So in this particular case we were doing, we'd done a series of, of just, you know, patrols during coming from the BTF house. So it's like multi day operation. We're just exhausted and smoked and anyways, I was a pig gunner on this one operation and we were like sprinting in the streets and we're doing bounding, you know, when, when you're at the rear of the patrol like you are moving. So I'm doing these sprints, you know, wearing, you know, 60 pounds of gear and it's 120 out. And you know, these are all my excuses by the way, but I'm super smoked. I have, you know, just excreted every bit of sweat that I have. And we get to, we end up bouncing into a house, take that down, just. I don't even know the purpose, honestly. But our terp, one of the terps that we had with was starting to go down and he reached out to me, he's like, hey Bob, I'm not doing so hot. And I took some water, threw it over his neck. I'm like, you're good. And then no sooner did that happen that I was like, wonk, wonk, wonk. And this is the first time I've ever had like any sort of, you know, heat issue at all. Through all the training, three platoons of training buds, nothing coming up, you know, summer football. I saw the world like starting to close down and I don't know if I went over the life or if he saw me just in a bad place, but I told him I was like, man, I'm about to go down like this is happening. I think we were still a click out from the BTF house and he made the call, he's like, give me your gun. And we swapped guns. So as emasculating as that was as a frogman, I gave him my, my pig, my awa. He carried that damn thing, got us home and I stumbled in, made it in and then kind of like totally collapsed once we got there. So I mean, you know, obviously not, not one of my finer moments, but that's what you got to do to win sometimes is you gotta, gotta help your. Help out your teammates, especially when they're really, really struggling. And yeah, and I think Johnny Kim hooked me up with like, you know, eight bags of fluid after that as I was in a full body cramp, you know, for 12 hours.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. So that's a good one start, Good one to start with. Look for work. What do you got next?

[Bobby Holland]

I think maybe you kind of hit on this a little bit, but be teachable, be eager to learn, and, you know, have a notepad in hand. So those all, all go hand in hand there. And you know, it goes into being humble, show up humble, ready to learn, and, you know, show up prepared too. It doesn't mean you're showing up to training. I'm going to get everything I need there. It means doing some of the work, doing the homework prior that may mean. So one thing as it applies to you guys is, particularly when I was in a leadership position, lpo in chief later, is we did a lot of pre work with our new guys before starting unit level training. So rather than take these guys fresh out of sqt, straight to the kill house and let them, you know, drink through a fire hose, like, what I did going through training is let's go through the basics, let's talk through in a, you know, much calmer environment, you know, learning environment when we can reach them, get them acclimated.

[Jocko Willink]

People don't learn well when they're freaking, totally freaked out.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. And that's part of it. I mean, a lot of our training, the merit is, you know, stressing us out, the pressure and working under that pressure. But in terms of learning some of the fundamentals, it's not a great way to start. So, yeah, we would build those fundamentals and they would show up ready to learn. And that always propelled us to a higher level of performance, you know, as a unit.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's a huge one. The notebook thing is like such a trick. Up, down and across the chain of command. You know, I'd have my little wheel book and if like my boss tells me, do something and I break out my notebook and I'm like, hey, let me just make sure I got this. That is such a good sign when one of my subordinates goes, hey, you know, hey, boss, what's going on with this? And I pull up my notebook and say, hold on, let me, let me just make sure I understand what you're saying. It is such a good sign. And I'll tell you, I didn't initially do it because it's like, it would make the person think I'm paying attention. I initially did, because when. If I don't. You get so much information during a day. You people are constantly telling you things. If you. If I didn't write it down, it would. I'd lose it. So initially it's like, oh, let me pull out my notebook so I can write down what you're saying to make sure I'm tracking it. And so I think that's not only a good thing to do, but it also. The image it projects is like, hey, I'm paying attention.

[Bobby Holland]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

But the same thing when I was running trade at and we would have guys coming through, and it was weird. You never know what you're going to get, right. I might have some guy that have. Has a ton of experience and thinks he's the best person in the world and comes in like, you can't teach me anything. And they do terrible. They just would do terrible. And as a matter of fact, there's an officer that's portrayed in the movie Warfare who is the guy that comes in, and the officer that was on site kind of got rocked, and he was a little bit messed up. And so he goes, he tells the officer that shows up, hey, you got this. And that officer's like, cool. And he just starts running stuff. And that guy came through after that had happened, and after the rest of that whole deployment, that individual officer came through training with me to prepare his platoon. He was then a platoon commander. Because he was an assistant platoon commander, he became a platoon commander. And that guy was. Even though he'd been through all that, don't perform well, had a great reputation doing all that, when he showed up, he was like, exactly. Notebook in hand, like, hey, hey, sir, you know, what'd you think of that? What could I do better? Just a totally humble attitude. And because of that humble attitude, guess what? He did great. His platoon did great. Now, I would have other guys that would have either less experience, more experience, but they didn't think they could learn anything. They thought they knew everything. And it was such a bummer, man. I'd be like, well, hey, man, I know you. I know that might have worked, or, I know you might have been through this before, but. And it was just like, well, I've always done it this way or whatever. And it was just so painful to try and get through that. And the bottom line is people that were teachable and eager to learn would perform outstanding. And people that were unteachable and didn't want to learn would do freaking terrible. And so no matter where you are, no matter how much experience you think you have, no matter how many times you've done the thing, just freaking be teachable and be eager to learn, and it's gonna have such a huge impact.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, man. And, you know, stay curious, right? Like, the best performers are intensely curious and they're trying to get better each and every day. So you're only gonna do that if you show up humble, ready to learn, and think that you don't know it all.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, how much have you learned in a startup scenario with, with Huli golf.com?

[Bobby Holland]

How much time do we have? Man, I tell you what, when I started out, this, and when you first came to me, we were having this conversation about what we're going to talk about here. I was like, man, I'm living the new guy life. So I've had to since leaving the military. I went to business school and I was a new guy there. I'm showing up one of the rare people that don't have any business background. So I have no disciplinary experience in anything, right? So I'm, I'm doing all this stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm showing up with another, blowing up and machine gunning people.

[Bobby Holland]

How does my experience as a breacher work in the boardroom here? But yeah, so I, I mean, I had to do all these things. I had to, I had to ask for help. I, you know, they, they give you all these modules to teach yourself advanced math and like pre calculus stuff, like all, all this. It's like overboard stuff. But yeah, I dug into all that and, and it just continued. It's like in months, you know, we had our sights on Hooli. Okay, how do I do the job, you know, of, of a CEO? How do I do the job? How do we launch this thing? How do we market it? Suddenly I'm a sales guy, I'm cutting videos, I'm doing design shit, doing accounting. It's like you're wearing all these, these damn hats and no one's hand holding you to do this. So it's either, you know, you have the cash. If you're fortunate enough as a startup to have the cash, you can hire all this talent and you can handle those things. That's great. But if not, you're gonna have to figure it out.

[Jocko Willink]

And yeah, but for everyone else, for.

[Bobby Holland]

Everyone else, get on that YouTube, start checking out tutorials, you know, reach within your network and get smart. And yeah, man, I've been doing that. And you know, that that's, you know, worked out really well. Just point. I. Each day I just tried to get a little bit better, try to get Hooli, you know, just in a little bit better footing, more efficient, try to learn from our customers and all that. And yeah, you know, and I also. It's the same methodology. This shit just. It translates to life and how I've applied myself to golf in general. So golf is insanely hard. And you got to be eager to learn. You got to dig in there, you got to figure out there's, you know, just a lot of parts of the golf swing that take a lot of time to work through. A lot of YouTube videos, a lot of instruction, a lot of nerding out. But, you know, if you want to get better at anything in life, golf, business, being a good team guy, you got to be here to learn and you got to put in the work, man.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, so be teachable, be eager to learn. What's next.

[Bobby Holland]

The hard way is usually the right way. And closely related is do it right or do it again.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, there's always that temptation, right? There's always a shortcut that you think you're gonna get away with. It's always there. Luckily, you know, you got BTF Tony. BTF Tony's not not doing it the easy way.

[Bobby Holland]

No, I mean shortcut. He's what comes to my mind, like immediately whenever I. I saw that, I was like, oh, that's Tony. I mean, the things that he instilled, man. I remember doing planning stuff for training and operations and just watching him plan and talk about infill. And his thing was always, we got to do the hardest. The hardest win is generally the best because generally the enemy is not expecting you to come through that shitty muddy bog. So, you know, yeah, that sucks. But tactically, it's putting in much better footing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I've where I guess I learned this not necessarily the hard way, but doing the right thing at the right time. And I was working, we. We were doing hydrographic reconnaissance for the Marine Corps. I was in an ARG platoon off the coast of Southern California. We went out in the middle of the night and did like the five hour freaking hydrographic reconnaissance in a big sea state. It was a total nightmare. We get all of our soundings, we do the freaking stuff, we gather our slates back up, we drive back out to the big ship. The cartographer, which is the guy that makes the charts echo Charles. The two cartographers take all the information, they build the little map or the little chart, turn it over to the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps. Then comes we, we go back in the water, Go back in the boats, back in the water. We go on the beach, we call in the Marines. The Marines come in. It's now been, you know, 48 hours of being awake and freaking, being freezing cold and swimming and all this. And the Marines come in and they land and they get on the shore. And the colonel in charge of the Marines is like, that was not good. We're doing it again. Go back to the boat. So all the Marines turn around, they go back to the boats. We go back to the boats. We get on the boats. They're like, hey, the Marines did not like the landing. They want to do it again. They want to do the whole thing again, starting with your hydrographic reconnaissance. We're like, okay, so we all freaking load the boats again, get our wetsuits on, drive over the horizon. We with our little boats, you know, three hour transit, whatever, get our boat pool set up and we're getting ready to get in the water to do a hydrographic reconnaissance that we had just done, like whatever, 36 hours before. So it's not like the beach had changed and we're all freezing and we're all tired and it's still a big, giant crappy sea state. And we're in our boat pool and we're about to get in the water and someone says to our platoon commander, who is a prior enlisted freaking stud and one of the best guys ever, someone goes, are we going to do this thing again? I thank God it wasn't me. But someone said, are we going to do this thing again? And our OIC said, well, we don't have to, but would that be the right thing to do? And it was all quiet, just like that. And we said, get in the water. Swimmer in. And. And it's so true. Like, you know, just, you gotta do the right thing. And no Marines, never would have known. The big Navy would never would have known. We could have turned in the same chart that we had made the night before, but it would not have been the right thing to do. And, and that is like the true frogman is not looking to cut those corners. And the only reason we didn't want to go is like cold, wet, tired, right? Like that's where you go through buds. Because cold, wet and tired is just part of life and that's how you do your job. So shut up and get in the water.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, sometimes you got those demons, though, that are chirping at you, right? Oh, maybe we can maybe we can just skip this one.

[Jocko Willink]

It's always that little. That little weakness. Weaknesses in there. And especially from a leadership perspective, it's like, yep, you better do the right thing. You better do it the hard way. The hard way is usually the right. Hey, not always. It's not like you do something hard just because it's hard. If there's a better way to do, there's a smarter way.

[Echo Charles]

Cool.

[Jocko Willink]

We're all about that. But if it's the right thing to do, do the right thing. Good one. All right, what next?

[Bobby Holland]

Don't make the same mistake twice.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

So there's a lot of. I almost say a lot. I mean, you're expected to make mistakes as a new guy, and obviously we're going to make mistakes throughout our lives and careers and all that. But there's a way. There's a way to handle these mistakes and it's very important, particularly in the teams as a new guy. And you got to own it. You got to own the shit out of it. Because if there's any resistance, you know, and it's clear that you're not taking ownership, you're not learning your lesson, you're going to suffer. And I mean, again, this applies to everything else. It's just, you know, you guys talk about ownership all the time and that's what this is. It's owning up to your mistakes. And then most importantly, you know, the debrief. What did I do wrong? How do I avoid it again? And then, you know, doing the remediation or whatever that is to make sure it never happens again.

[Jocko Willink]

The escalation between your first mistake and your second mistake of the same thing in the. In the teams is a lot like you make a mistake, it's like, hey, hey, dude, here's what you did wrong. Like, make sure you don't do that again. And like you said, it's kind of expected if you make that same mistake again, it escalates quickly because now you're just being dumb. I was on a trip back in the day and we were. I was in training cell with a couple of the guys and we were like advent to a certain area and there was. It was an area where there was bars and clubs and nightlife, as they say. Echo, Charles. So, you know, I was a young single team guy and was with some of the boys and there was a master chief, a Vietnam master chief that worked in this particular area and he was, you know, like a Vietnam master chief. And so we go out and one of the guys Got into like a fight, you know, and he kind of like scraped up his knuckles. And the next day we're at work and, you know, it's not a huge town, so, you know, word travels around and, you know, of course the SEAL master chief's gonna kind of know some of the law enforcement or whatever. But anyways, we show up to work the next day and this buddy of mine has like, you know, scratched, bruised knuckles, right, from cracking somebody. And the master chief's like, hey. He's like one of those master chiefs. He's like, hey, what happened to your hand? And the dude's like, oh, I, I think I fell down the stairs or something stupid like that. And the master chief looked him and goes, I've been in that team for 28 years. What happened to your hand? And he's like, I punched someone in the face. It's like, totally good to go. Like, just tell the truth. Own it. Yeah. Or you're, things are going to get worse because of course, you know, he knows police, like, it's all going to, they're going to get you like, it's going to, you just don't, you can't cover things up. Own it. You make a mistake, don't make it again and carry on.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. You know, one thing that comes to mind, it's easier to make mistakes as new guys because you're expected to make a certain amount of mistakes. It's harder when you're more experienced guy, even a leader, to make a mistake. And how you handle that is even more important. I had a case where I'm just going to be diamond myself out today. Just all good, just repenting on some of my team guy mistakes. But I was on my fourth platoon, so, so this was after, after Ramadi, I went to a training command. I was perhaps a smidge rusty coming back and we were doing a jump and.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, you were a smidge rusty on jumping. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jack.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. When, when you're at a training command, you're, you're sucked into, I, I, I was at buds, so I was doing, you know, very basic training there and we had done some quality or whatnot. But anyways, we were doing this jump normal kind of profile. I was a little bit rusty and they had me normally being a bigger, heavier guy. You're at the back of the, of the train jumping out because you fall faster than everyone else for whatever reason. They put me out front and anyways, they're given the signals and one of the signals, which is the standby signal, is A thumbs up. So they. They hit the bottom of the floor and they thumbs up. And I was like, fuck, yeah, let's roll. And basically just jumped out 15 seconds early. And the entire train jumped out. So we were hovering probably over Mexico a little bit, but after that, I didn't even realize what I had done when we jumped, I was like, damn, we're kind of far from the dz. We all made it back. And then the guys were polite enough to let me know, hey, why'd you jump on standby? And then Standby Bob was born. So there's been many Bobs, but for a while, I was Standby Bob. And you gotta take on the chin, man. You know, you gotta. You gotta own it up. And especially if you're in a leadership position, you know, it sucks sometimes to take that, but you gotta. You gotta just take it, man.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you're. There's a very decent chance if you do something like that, you'd end up with a modified nickname.

[Bobby Holland]

But if you fight it, the nickname lasts forever.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, if you fight it, it's gonna stick even more.

[Bobby Holland]

But no one knows me Stand By Bob anymore. Except for a select few. Maybe now a couple more. I'll get a couple more.

[Jocko Willink]

But there was a video of. It wasn't me. It was in my platoon. I wasn't free fall qualified, but it was in this is my first platoon. And like, there was a whole debate on the ramp of a guy saying, like, go. No, no, no.

[Echo Charles]

Go.

[Jocko Willink]

No, no go. It was like it was all in video. It was just comical. So that's why we rehearse, you know, that's why we rehearse.

[Bobby Holland]

Well, you know, I mean, this goes to. We're talking about humility. And the longer you're in, the more likelihood you are to get complacent. And I've had a couple periods of my career where I got a little complacent and complacency kills. And that's why you gotta fight it at all costs. There's another. We'll throw this in the mistake category here, but I watched Warfare this last week. Fantastic movie, man. Watched the episode with Joan Elliott, man, and really powerful stuff. But when I was watching that movie, I was seeing so many of the sights and sounds and feels that I was familiar with, it was blowing my mind. But there was one scene in particular that is like, holy shit, I feel like I've seen this. And no spoilers here. You already had them on. But anyways, there's a scene where they're Looking through the scope and you see these people scampering into the building. Like, I saw that and I saw that, and so I was on. I was on a gun. I wasn't a sniper, wasn't trained sniper, but, you know, we all rotated through, you know, watch rotations essentially. So I spent a lot of my time on an A dub looking down the sector. But I would rotate through sniper rifles. You know, I was trained to shoot rifles, but not as proficient as a sniper. But anyways, I was, I was. I saw this movement and I zoomed in and was looking at that. And right when I did that, out of my periphery, I saw a puff of smoke from across the street. And I looked and I locked eyes, you know, not beyond the scope, but with this shooting an RPG like right in my face. And that thing zoomed in and I, I, you know, swept the scope over and it was zoomed in because I'm looking, you know, a thousand yards down and it was just blackness, nothing. I was basically, you know, not able to get that guy. And yeah, we got hit by PKM soon after. But, yeah, you know, those are the mistakes that you don't want to. Don't want to have to learn. But, you know, luckily we didn't get hit and just, you know, don't make that mistake again. And, you know, and whether or not that was a mistake or they just got one up on me from being zoomed in or not being. Being aware of the immediate part of our sector. Combat's hard, man. And sometimes, you know, even you're trying to do all the right things, you're just going to get gotten sometimes.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. What. What did you. I had my first appointment to Iraq. We were in this position and do you remember when they had flir on the, on the humvees for a little while. And so we were in this position and I had my Humvee in this kind of like bunkered position. And we were looking across the river. This was in Baghdad. And we're looking across the river and we're scanning for a while and all of a sudden this, this. And we had snipers out, but I had the flir, you know, so I was like, okay, I can help the snipers a lot. And so I'm looking across the river and all of a sudden, you know, this kind of, this kind of vehicle rolls by and then it kind of rolls by again and then it stops and, and then like, guys get out and I'm like, oh, it's, you know, these guys are definitely setting up and they start, like, they open the trunk, you know, so now I'm like, okay, cool. This is. We're about to. We're about to kill some bad guys because we were. We're on this FOB that had been getting attacked a lot. And so now I'm like, zooming in. I'm, like, trying to PID weapons. Trying to PID weapons. I'm talking, you know, snipers. Like, hey, guys. Right? It was. There was a bridge right there, and it was. Was like, right by the bridge, and they were like, we got him. We're tracking. And as I'm sitting there, like, totally focused on that boom, we get hit with RPGs from, like, another spot. And it was. So as soon as it happened, I was like, dude, I just got so played. Because they did made the total obvious thing for. To draw all of our attention, including mine. And then we got hit from probably 300 meters away, which is. I did not see any of it. We just like, oh, yeah, we just got played. That is, you know, the enemy's going to be smart. What do you remember? I know you're on that podcast I did with Joe and Elliot. We did, you know, we kind of talked about the turnover and how, you know, what my feelings were when we turned over. It was like you felt like you were letting your kid go, like, for the first time in the deep end or whatever, and it felt really hard to. To leave. How did you feel?

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, I think that's the sentiment there is, you know, because you know that there's a learning curve. And I. I knew where we were in April 2006, and then where we were by October. We were completely different humans and operators. And. Yeah, you just. You feel for the guys and you. You wish them the best and not knowing what they're going to face, you just hope that, you know, they're going to learn the lessons they need to learn the easier way.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. Tough one.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. All right, what's your next. What's your next new guy advice? Life advice.

[Bobby Holland]

Yep. We talked about humility. I think we're good on that one. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. One of my favorite team guy scenes. Love that. So from a. From team guy perspective, this is a shooting term, and it's really about being smooth to draw your sights and a smooth trigger squeeze, and that. That is preferable to being fast jerky, throwing your rounds off target missing, and having to take follow on shots. So that's kind of the, you know, the. The principle that applies to shooting, but I think In a broader context. Yeah, Maybe stretching it a little bit. But you guys talk about, you know, OODA loop and detaching, and I think those are closely related in terms of just being smooth. Right. Being observing, orienting smooth and deliberate in some of the decisions that you're making. So you're not being hasty and emotional.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's such a classic team guy saying. And I don't even know where. I think it might have originated from one of the shooting schools that we went to, but I'm not sure. Maybe it came from the Vietnam guys, I don't know. But, you know, when you shoot and especially when you're a new guy and you're trying to beat one of the older guys, so you're going to fat, and the faster you try and go, the more shots you throw in, the worst job you do. And just to be like, all right, just do what you're supposed to do. Slow, smooth, smoothest, fast is a huge benefit. And I think it also applies, like what you're saying is not rushing decision making. And look, you're gonna have to make decisions. But sometimes. And again, as. As much as we talk about being default aggressive and making things happen, there's. Sometimes it's like, okay, hold on a second. Let's. Let's see where this. Let's let this evolve a little bit. Let's let this play out a little bit. Let's see where this is. Let's see if this is the real problem. Because just like I just talked about a guy that's in the vicinity of this FOB that has been getting attacked in the nighttime when there's a curfew and he's out and he's opening up his trunk of his car, that seems like the biggest problem. And it got me totally sucked in. But if I would have been like, okay, cool, let's take. Let's take a bit. Just. Just widen the parameter of the FLIR thermal imager. And I would have seen the other dudes popping up with a couple RPGs that they're about to get slam into us. So taking a step back, not getting target fixation, not rushing to judgment is a. Is a good policy. Not just when you're shooting, but when you're. When you're living. Be smooth, Chuck. Next.

[Bobby Holland]

Take care of your gear, and your gear will take care of you.

[Jocko Willink]

Ain't that the truth? Yep.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, man. So seems, you know, I pretty common sense in the statement. But one thing I think about in particular being a breacher, just to give the level of attention to detail on my gear just to get an example of being a seal and being a SEAL breacher. But we have to operate our systems at night. We primarily do direct action missions at night. So everything that we do is under darkness, under nods. So when you're part of a breach team in particular you're dealing with a charge, a number of charges, you know, no nel firing devices. And you know, not to get too much into our procedures, but there may be a procedure where, you know, it's a two man job and there's some orchestration of that stuff. And I mean this could be a total goat rodeo if you're not applying the attention to detail where it needs to be and how your gear is set up. But these charges have, there's a booster connected to it, there's this. And if it's not placed in your pouch the right way and at the dark you're going to pull that out. I had this folded in exact precise way. It wasn't upside down, it wasn't this so I could reach in. I know when I'm grabbing it, exactly where it's at and I know there's like an adhesive to it. I've pre staged like a tape ball at the end of it because I, I don't want to be looking down, I want to feel, you know, but I don't have the dexterity in my gloves. So you know, you know exactly where everything's at. You got the, no, no, wrapped this side. You know, if I'm passing it off this way or that way, the, the firing device is laid on just this way so that you know, everything comes out and it's maximum efficiency on target. So that's just one example of the level of attention to detail on the gear that I applied. But in the teams in general, our gear is king man. From day one. Our weapon systems, keeping them up and running, the post op, the pre op, making sure they're ready to go, op testing them, all of our life saving equipment. I was probably, you know, if there was an award for the slowest parachute packer in the teams, it was probably this guy. I wasn't putting anything to chance, man. I was always the last one. They were packing my shoe, you know, sweat just pouring off. But take care of your gear and your gear will take care of you.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I was, I was over jumping and I was on deployment back in the day and, and, and we are jumping into some desert location and you know, we land and we pack and you know, cool. And we're kind of like, you know. You know, we had a couple very proficient, like, leapfrog type jumpers in the platoon. They're like, come on, guys, like, hurry up. And like, okay, of course, you know, and so I kind of like, you know, rushed through a pack job and then, you know, we jump again. And like, okay, my parachute's still open. Well, now we get down the ground again. And now the wind's picked up, so now we're out in the desert trying to pack our rigs and the, you know, things blowing, and we're literally, like, taking rocks and putting them onto the chutes. And, dude, I completely trash packed this rig, and the didn't open.

[Bobby Holland]

Damn.

[Jocko Willink]

So, yeah, I had to cut away and really didn't feel good about it. But, you know, I was like, you know, is that smart? And it was also part of it, you know, it was not only, hey, like, I'm trying to hurry because I'm trying to get it done, but like, that peer pressure of like, come on, dude. Like, you don't want to be. You do not want to be the guy that's holding up the hilo. Like a hilo. A whole helicopter is waiting on you. And, you know, so I wasn't. And I wasn't the last guy done packing. Of course I wasn't, because I trash packed that thing and it didn't open.

[Bobby Holland]

So this is the teams right here. Rather than doing the deliberate thing to take care of yourself yourself, you don't want to let down your buddies.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's 100. It maybe not the best call in that particular scenario. And the other piece of gear you got to take care of is your body. Like, you're 100. You're, you know, and you're just. You know, the SEAL teams and the military is very rough on your. On your body. And a lot of times guys don't help it, right? They don't help the process. Like, they eat like crap, drink alcohol, don't. I think one of the worst things that. That people do is stop working out for three weeks, stop working out for a month, whatever the case may be. Oh, you went, you know, you went on a trip or you got back from a trip or your family this. And guys stop working out for six weeks. And all of a sudden, when you get back to working out or you get back to the field, you think you can still do what you were doing. And it's like, you know what, that works when you're 20. Like when I was. When I was. Got out of buds Bro, I could show up. What? It didn't matter. You're, you're in shape from buds for a while. Like they just, it just, it just is part of you. But then eventually you're like, oh, I would see guys not work out and who do you think's going to get hurt? Like if you haven't worked out and then all of a sudden you're sprinting, carrying a freaking down, man, like you're getting hurt.

[Bobby Holland]

So, yeah, especially dues of our advanced stage. I mean, once you get over 40, you got to keep moving because if you don't move it, you're gonna lose it and you may not get it back.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you caught it. You gotta fight it every day, you gotta get it, you gotta get it done every day, you gotta move every day. I really do think, like I've been very lucky on, you know, training and you know, Jiu Jitsu. Like, I mean I get, I've gotten dinged up from Jiu Jitsu, but I'm still training and I'm still training hard. I'm still lifting, still running, still doing stuff hard. And I think one of the biggest, the main reasons for that is the fact that I don't stop moving and I never go. You know, it's been a few months since I worked out, dude, that's, that's when you're getting hurt.

[Bobby Holland]

Do you still do muscle ups?

[Jocko Willink]

Yes, yes. Actually, technically right now I have some tendonitis in my right arm that we're, we're getting there. Yeah, but so it's not at this moment, but yes, muscle ups are part of the thing.

[Bobby Holland]

Good for you, man. I was never a muscle up guy. My shoulder mobility, never. I've only done a couple.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

My entire life. But I was always impressed. I remember back in the day. Yeah, you're doing a bunch of muscle ups.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we had a, one of the new guy officers came over to Ramadi and I don't know if you remember, I had rings in the like gym there and this guy came up to me. He's a good, he's a good dubious. And ensign, you know, brand new officer, he's like, he's like, hey, sir, you know, I've been having some troubles with my shoulders or do you have any recommendations? And I was like, yeah, muscle ups.

[Bobby Holland]

So, yeah, on that, the, the teams are getting a lot smarter. You know, I mean when we come up, when we came up, there was no thought of taking care of yourself. It was just run yourself into the ground. And that's why if Everyone in our generation just became broken at some point, but now it's, it's built in. You know, they got, they got touchpoints throughout. You got, you got nutritionists, you got trainers. Yeah, it's pretty good.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And they don't like, they're not as abusive to their bodies as we were, which is awesome. So there's progress there. And then the other thing I'll say on this is I've taken this. Take care of your gear and your gear will take care of you. I've also changed that to take care of your people and your people will take care of you.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So if you treat your, your team like they're not going to care about you, but if you take care of them, they'll take care of you. So this applies to everything. All right, what's next? What do you got?

[Bobby Holland]

Become an asset and make yourself indispensable. Very important. Yeah. In the teams, especially as a new guy, that's what you're trying to do as fast as humanly possible is become a reliable entity that people trust and that, you know, they'll bring you on the mission because it's not guaranteed that you're going on the mission and, or if you do go, that you're not going to get marginalized into some position, you know, in the back of the trainer or whatever else. So, you know, it's about putting in the work to get yourself there. A lot of work on your own, finding the mentors that you need and then taking advantage of opportunities, you know, when they come. There was one, one vignette I could think of as a new guy. I had a new guy buddy with me that we'd done butts together until I got rolled. And then I met him, we joined the same platoon, Charlie. And anyways, he was a comms guy and he wasn't super happy with the level of comms training and support at that time, like early 2000s. So we had some new, like emerging technologies and we just weren't where he thought we should be. And as a new guy, he just like geeked out and he got all the manuals, he started reaching out to SMEs and on that deployment he actually ended up creating some innovation. I won't get too into the details, but it had to do with. Basically we got, we got tasked to do the exploitation of like a strategic level operation. So after the operation went down, we went and did some exploitation and we're sending photos that like high level folks were seeing. And he was able to do this in an environment that had never been done before, you know, so just because you're a new guy doesn't mean you can't innovate and bring value. You know, it's. The ball's in your court. It's just, you know, how far can you get? How fast? You know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. In fact, as a new guy, you might have a little bit more of an open mind than for sure than other people. And like, especially when it comes to technology, like, people like me may not be all that technologically savvy, but if you roll in there and you can make things happen. Yeah, that's. It's so critical and it's, it's oftentimes it's like the, you know, hey, this is, this is how someone does the business, right? This is how we do it. And they don't see the holes or the gaps that you might be able to see when you go, wait a second, why are we doing, why do we have this? Why don't we just get this app over here? Why don't we just program this thing or whatever the case may be? Wouldn't it be more efficient to do this? And they just don't see it sometimes. And so rolling in there and of course you got to be humble. But if you roll in there and you can say, hey, we can make this more efficient. We can accelerate our progress here by doing these things. It's. It's very beneficial. That's a huge part of it. And then, you know, as simple as this might sound like you, the first thing you said was if you're reliable, like being a reliable human that is going to do the right things on the right time and be on time and have the right gear like that is, believe it or not, a legit freaking asset. If I can count on this dude to be here at this time with the right gear, a hundred percent, man, that is, that's huge in its own right. So good way to become an asset.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. Damn right.

[Jocko Willink]

What's next?

[Bobby Holland]

Keep your world small.

[Jocko Willink]

What does that mean? What do you mean by that?

[Bobby Holland]

So as a new guy and this, this kind of, you know, from training to being a new guy is don't, don't get overwhelmed with, you know, the big picture and all these things. Keep your world small. You know, focus on the procedure, the teams, everything we deal with in close quarters combat, you know, immediate action drills, maneuver warfare, you know, it's all if this, then that. It's all set of procedures. So looking at, you know, I think pool comp is like the Best example that people know about in our training pipeline of, you know, pool comp is this series of underwater. Or it's. It's an underwater test where they're stressing you the hell out. They're taking away your air source, you know, getting you near drowning and then letting you work yourself out of that procedure there. And, you know, if we go all the way back to there, it's keeping your world small. And, okay, I don't have an error. First I got to check, make sure the air is on. The air is on. Tracing the hoses. So it's easy to get overwhelmed in extremely stressful situations. But keeping your world small, especially as a new guy, when you're not as familiar with all the things that you're doing, the more you could focus on the procedure. It's led me to get through a lot of stuff beyond just being a team guy. Business is a roller coaster, and you can get jerked around a lot emotionally if every little thing that happens, you're kind of losing your shit. So focusing on the fundamentals, the things you got to do to get better, recognizing where to make the adjustments, and, you know, I mean, man, translates to life and everything else. And, yeah, you know, one. One thing, that one team guy vignette, that is a very strong one. You talk about having a cutaway. I had. I had myself a little free fall issue once as well. And I believe keeping my world small, like, saved my damn life. So, like, little backstory here is this is, like, circa 2000. I was dealing with some really bad back issues. I was platoon chief. I was just fighting through it, and we had a jump week, and we were progressing through that jump week and culminating in a combat equipment jump. And, yeah, I wasn't going to not train. It's just everything I did hurt really bad. And so maybe this pertains to something else we've already talked about here, but we're jumping with a ruck, and I found it best to lighten up that ruck a little bit, really, just to alleviate the sitting around, having that thing, it sits in between your legs. You're sitting for hour, hour and a half. Just excruciating pain to have anything pulling on me. So anyways, I lightened up that ruck, and then we went out and proceeded to do the jump, and I waddled up to the door and I threw myself out. And I don't know if it was a combination of the. The lightness of the ruck or how the straps became loose, but that damn thing turned into a Sail. It caught air and I started violently flipping, essentially for like 7,000ft. So I. I was violently forward flipping.

[Jocko Willink]

Forward flipping?

[Bobby Holland]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

That's bizarre.

[Bobby Holland]

It is bizarre. Yeah. So the, the ruck. The ruck had basically caught. You know, it's in between your legs and it had, like, dropped down and was catching wind like a sail. So I. I was trying to. I was trying to counterbalance it and trying to, like, basically sit fly and do some other things. And I was having a hard time getting. Getting stable. I. I would basically get stable for a second.

[Jocko Willink]

Mm.

[Bobby Holland]

And then I would flip again. And so, like, through this whole time, I was surprisingly, like, pretty calm through it. Although I knew, like, if I didn't get my shit together really, really fast, this was going to be bad. And I also knew, like, I can't. I can't pull this as I'm flipping, you know, because we'll get tangled and I'll be down. So, you know, it's very keen that I had to figure this out and pull at a precise moment. And I did just that. I found a sit fly position. I was stable for, like, three seconds. I pulled that damn thing into pulling at the right altitude and floating down with everyone else. No one else had a clue what the hell I'd been through. But, you know, I think just one of many examples of, you know, high stress pressure situations where, you know, just focus on the procedure, trying to correct your position and not. Because if you're just worried about death, you're gonna die.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, you're gonna die.

[Bobby Holland]

That's it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I've always, when I first saw that, I was like, keep your world small. I've heard people talk about, like, training, like, Bud's training. Don't think of six months. Don't think of one month. Don't think of first phase. Think of, like, I'm going to make it through this log PT right now and make it to breakfast or whatever. So that's one. But the way you're describing it really makes me think of, like, prioritize and execute. Like, okay, there's a lot of shit going on right now. I could die. But right now what I need to focus on is getting stable so I can pull my rip guard. That's the most important thing in the world. None of this other shit matters. And that's what I'm take care of. So, yeah, that's when there's a lot of crazy things going on. Like, what's the most important thing? What do I need to actually focus on right now? I Can't do four things at once. You know, you probably couldn't even at that point. You know, you're probably done checking your altimeter. You've like, I've just got to get stable and freaking pull my rip cord. Like, not worried about this, not worried about that. I don't care where the DZ is. Like, I need to get stable and pull my rip cord. That's a little prioritized. And execute.

[Bobby Holland]

That was it, man.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Bobby Holland]

All right, next, rehearsals and visualizing to enhance performance. So, like, this is definitely something, as our pipeline has evolved, that has been more ingrained into the training. At least it had been when I left basic training back in 2021. And I know the team's got a lot better about this. We. We kind of hit on this earlier. You, you know, about the value of doing rehearsals, but at that micro level as an individual, you know, running yourself through, you know, if you're doing a training evolution, if you're doing an operation, whatever that is, running through the procedure, rehearsing that and actually visualizing, you know, as close as you can replicate whatever it is you're going to be doing, there's a lot of value in that. And obviously, we've seen a lot of this in sports. Sports nowadays, there's just a big movement towards visualization, performance. It's, it's. I mean, it's big in golf. Professional golfers are doing it. Obviously, a lot of the other athletes have been doing this for a while.

[Jocko Willink]

But one thing that was something that kind of got lost for a while was when I first got to the teams, it was for a mission, you were supposed to prep gear 1/3 of the time, plan 1/3 of the time, and rehearse one third of the time. 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. And for a while, it became like 90% planning, which really translated to 90 sitting around making PowerPoint slides that the commanding officer could be impressed with your. Your fonts and whatnot. And we really got away. I saw. I saw people getting away from rehearsals, and luckily I was always very, you know, as adamant as I could be about that 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. And look, there was a certain time where there was a certain things where it's like, you know, you're going to have to freaking put this major PowerPoint thing together so that the. Whoever is going to see it and go, wow, it looks like you're really unprepared for this. It's like, no, we haven't rehearsed at all. We're not ready for Shit. No, actually the deal is 1/3. 1/3, 1/3, 1 third gear prep, which we would get pretty efficient at. Gear prep. We really wouldn't take that much time. You know, maybe if you got back in the day, if you got hit with some mission that you, you hadn't been doing, right? Like if you get suddenly hit with a, a duck drop otb, it's going to take you a third of the time to get that gear ready. And then the next day you're doing a, you know, a target assault and the next day you're doing a combat swimmer op. Like, it will take you more time, but we get in that rhythm of like, oh, we're doing a, we're doing a D. A we're doing a D A We're doing a driving da we're doing a driving da. We're like, oh, we're doing a, an overwatch and overwatch over. Like you, you don't. It doesn't take one third of the time to prep your gear. But rehearsals and, and, and that also goes with rehearsals too. Like we rehearse getting in and out of the vehicles. Well, if you haven't done a land a vehicle op before or you're working with people you haven't worked with before, yeah, you need to spend a third of that time getting in and out of the vehicles. How are you going to line up the vehicles? What are you going to do if there's a down vehicle? What's your toes toe. Your rig for toe situation, who's changing tires? Like all that stuff? You. But we would do like just operation after operation after operation where you could do a three minute walkthrough getting out of the vehicles one time and everyone's like, yep, cool, we're good. Everyone knows what vehicles are in. Yep, cool, Got it. So you could spend a little more time planning and a little less time with rehearsals and a little less time with gear prep. But ultimately, knowing what those numbers are and understanding the importance of, of rehearsal, which man walking through something one time is. It increases people's capabilities like five times.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, man, this is something we did a lot in Ramadi too. So like every time we did a da, we would do exactly what you're talking about. And it seems from an outsider looking in like amateur level shit, you know, pulling up vehicles are in this order, they're looking this direction, guys are stepping out fields of fire and then, you know, the assault is moving this way or whatever. We did that every single time. And you know what? Every single time. I also did was every breach that I did, every single breach I did overseas is we did a walkthrough like that. So you've done dozens, hundreds of breaches, guys. All experienced dudes. And we're doing very basic level walkthroughs because if nothing else, you're creating muscle memory so that it's instinctive that when we're on target, we know what the target looks like, we know we're going right. And obviously anything could change. Right. You train to your plan A and then you read and react based off your SOPs after that. But what we did is we came like really efficient about breaching and assaulting and we're minimizing our time on the X because we've rehearsed this over and over again. I know I'm going left, you're going right. This is what's happening. And bam, that charges, you know, off and we're inside before anyone knows what's happened. Yeah, that applies to, you know, so.

[Jocko Willink]

Many different things, doing walkthroughs. Good. Next.

[Bobby Holland]

This is another popular team I want. And two is one, one is none.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, Chuck.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Make sure you got your gear.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, got your gear.

[Jocko Willink]

You didn't have some redundant gear?

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, I, I got a good story here. So when I was on last time, I told a story. I won't recount the entire thing, but basically we were doing a training operation, big Navy exercise training with the submarine. I had like a near death experience. Zodiac flipped, yada, yada. Well, after that whole thing transpired, we still had the entire operation to do. That was just the insert. And so we. What did. What had happened at that, we flipped the Zodiac on, you know, pulling the Zodiac off the submarine, launching. All of our shit got soaked and we got some gear that basically got damaged. So we inserted our swimmers and our radio had been just soaked. So basically it was inoperable. And we had had an issue. Sea state had kicked up and so we had to change our link up with the Mark 5s were supposed to pick us up out in the middle of the ocean essentially. And due to sea state, we had some changes. We were relying on this communication to get relayed. Well, it never did or never got back to us. And come that morning, we're floating out in the ocean waiting for pickup. It just never came.

[Jocko Willink]

This is just such a freaking typical freaking team guy disaster. It just adds up like every little thing. Oh yeah, we flipped the boat, which is no big deal, except for the radio flood. Except we need to. It's like I have to just yell.

[Bobby Holland]

And it turned into a lot more. So we missed our link up our extract. Night becomes day. Just flown out there were super smoked. Chris was out there with me too. He was one of the other Zodiac drivers. We're just smoked. Been flown out in the ocean all night and we were all soaked from the sea state. And anyways we made the decisions like, all right, well I guess we go back to land. We can't talk to anyone. We're floating out here in the ocean. We went back. This island that we were on was there was thousands of seals and sea lions and we just pulled up amongst them. We just racked out, you know, several stuff out, tried to drive.

[Jocko Willink]

Where was this? Was it like around San Diego is near.

[Bobby Holland]

I want to say like San Nicolas, St. Nick.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, yeah, I've been there. That's what there's freaking elephant seals on there and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Oh it's. Yeah, it's like a little wild out there. It's a little western.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. There were zero shits by the time we were so smoked. We just pulled up to this. I mean it was like the National Geographic filming. Yeah, thousands of these guys and we laid out and basically had no columns with anyone and you know, just hoping people were going to find us.

[Jocko Willink]

Who was with you? Was it like a platoon?

[Bobby Holland]

No, no.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, we guess like the boat we.

[Bobby Holland]

We dropped off, it was a platoon op. We dropped off a couple of SR teams and I think two Zodiacs. So there were like four, four of us, two per boat. Four of us alone enough. Right. And so we, we were stranded on this island throughout the day and then we saw a P3 flying overhead and I think we got them on Embitter or something at some point. But we notified the Mark Fives where we were and then they came to pick us up that evening, showed up, we thought our night was over seas day kicked up weather, kicked up it's storming bow breakers and the boat got stuck out in the middle like I guess we ran over kelp and went in the jets. So we were stuck out there all night through the next next morning. So yeah, I mean going back to his one one is none. Right. We, if we have two radios, if we have a redundant capability, our night is two days less long.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, Rob spent a lot of time out there. That little San Diego AO of operations. We get driving back down motors towing with a 35 horsepower spare engine, like just drifting into Mexican waters. Coming up on HF radio calling like port facilities, trying to see if we could get help. Yeah, the water. Don't play around. Don't play around. All right, next.

[Bobby Holland]

If you're not going to be smart, be hard.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a good one.

[Bobby Holland]

I mean, I think you should be bothered, really.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

But definitely as a new guy, you're gonna have to be hard. You're gonna have to carry more weight than everyone else. You're gonna be working longer hours than everyone else. So, you know, that's it.

[Jocko Willink]

If you're gonna be stupid, you gotta be tough. Yeah. Yeah. Jack concur.

[Bobby Holland]

Yep. Yeah, man. You, you mentioned with the, you know, pod with Joan Elliott about the, the overwatches, like how, how hard those actually were and how that was captured, I think, you know, pretty well in, in that movie Warfare. But yeah, those were some long, gnarly ops, man. And, you know, long patrols in super hot nasty, you know, carrying a ton of weight and then, and then you get there and you're standing watch essentially waiting for bad to happen. Yeah, those were some, some long, gnarly ops. And our new guys were studs, man. They, they handle that again, you know, exactly as they were trained to do and represented. But yeah, just kind of came to mind.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I remember sitting in like Cop Falcon and I was just sitting there and I had been sitting there downstairs. Like the army had moved in. They're starting to build the combat outpost. You guys pushed down to Four Store. I think it was Four Store. You guys pushed down there. And I'm like sitting there and I am in a full athletic sweat. Like, I'm sitting, I've been sitting there for like two hours. Like I'm not moving. I'm just sitting there and I'm in a full athletic like drip, drip, drip, drip. And that's how hot it is. I mean, it's 120 degrees. It's freaking totally ridiculous. And yeah, that's the way it is, man.

[Bobby Holland]

Yard. Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

Check. Next.

[Bobby Holland]

Attention to detail. So I mean, this is in, in that phrase is just hammered in buds. But I mean that's, this is actually.

[Jocko Willink]

Hammered in Navy boot camp.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Really, like, because he's Navy boot camp. You know, this is a kid that's 17 years old in Navy boot camp and he's going to be, you know, loading the ordinance onto an aircraft and making sure that it's done correctly. And so they really want to make sure that you have attention to detail and the team's the same damn thing.

[Bobby Holland]

It's it, man. Everything we do is high risk, whether that's training or operations. And all of It. It's a lot of little details, man. And all the, all the, all those details matter. The order matters sometimes.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. And. And one thing that you notice is that's part of your reputation. You know, if you're not. If you're. If you're constantly dropping the ball on the little things, you know, how can I count on you to do the big things if you can't even get the little things right? And, you know, someone might be like, well, you know, this isn't that important now. Well, it is that important, like the little things. That's like that saying how you do anything is how you do everything. Yep, that's one of those. Another little, like, team guy ish saying of the little things are gonna matter. That's how you get your reputation. You know, if you show up late, you forget things, you forget that little thing. You're not in the right uniform. All those little things add up, man. They all add up.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. And, you know, before you become the leader, as you're progressing through whatever career that is, you know, if you don't know the details, you don't know the jobs and the smaller parts, points of performance of the job, then you can't really lead that. So it all starts from the fundamentals of the attention, detail.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, man, they matter. Got any more?

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. Be a good follower. You know, I know you. You guys talk a little bit about this. The, you know, the, the dichotomy of being a good leader. The, the opposite of that there was reciprocal of that is being being a good follower. And, you know, sometimes that could be challenging, but it's super important. And yeah, man, you gotta, you know, part of that is, especially as a new guy, like, learning the mission. Like, you may not understand all the things, but it's, you know, getting yourself informed, getting plugged in, you know, understanding the chain of command and knowing how to respect leadership and how to, I mean, just be a good teammate. So one example, I was thinking with Leif, Leif made it really easy to be a good follower because he was a really tremendous leader and I really appreciated his style. As leaders, you. You pick and pull from different leaders that you have. And, you know, he was less experienced in the teams than I was, but like, super mature, great, great leader. And, you know, he had a. This is like a superpower in terms of leadership, but just a way of connecting with his people at a very human level. And, you know, he's funny as shit. And that's, you know, I'm not sure if everyone gets Gets to see that really, really funny guy, engaging dude, and he's willing to have discussions with you, but in the same sense, he knows how to make a call and, you know, when it's time to fall in line and listen to that. And one such case I had is we were doing an operation. I think this was. What's that? Village right outside of.

[Jocko Willink]

I know what you're talking about.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. So we were doing an operation there, and we had a, you know, normal direct action mission there, and we hit the target, actually. The breach went off and we rushed, you know, the room, kind of like a mud room, and fireworks started going off in there. Not sure if you remember this, but the, the Josam incident. So essentially we, we come into this room and, you know, gunshots are happening. Like, it's like, damn, this, this is a hot target. Guys are starting to prep frags. Like, it's on.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

You know, sucking out of the doorway and make entry and ends up being like an old guy in kind of a dry hole. And, and, you know, I'm certainly perplexed, like, what the hell happened? It turned out one of our Iraqis in the back of the train had an ad, almost smoked all this. But anyways, after that whole event, we got the intel. Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

The guy's over here, a couple houses down.

[Bobby Holland]

A couple houses down. Kind of like in an apartment complex. And, you know, being the preacher that I was, I wanted to blow up everything, just standard. And Leif had seen something that I hadn't seen. He'd seen some, some small shoes sent out the.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, like multiple pairs of kids shoes outside the door. Yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

Yep. So, you know, Leif kind of gave me the initial guidance, say, this, this is what we're doing. And, you know, there was a little bit of not pushback, but I, I, I think we should do this. Leif was like, you know, negative, not, not doing that. So. And I immediately backed off because I. Once you get that signal that this is not a discussion, this is a call. So I think that's part of straddling that. Being being a good follower. Knowing. Knowing when you got to get in line. Yeah, it's part of it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And the Leif being funny part. So I. On that podcast I did with Joe and Elliot, Leif had sent me a bunch of emails between him and Elliot, and because they were, they were real tight bros. And the funny thing is, so I got him, and I'm like, all right. So I had to, like, edit them down because there's, like, inappropriate stuff in there. And so, and then I told Leif, I was like, hey man, thanks for sending those emails. Yeah, I, I edit them down, you know, just to clean them up. He's like, oh, I already edited him down. So I had to edit it down, the edited down version, you know, but there was a bunch of. Bunch of smack talking in there and stuff like that. And. Yeah, and that's. I always, you know, I always joke that Leif is like a lot nicer than I am. You know what I mean? Like, he's just nice, you know, he's just a nice. Whatever. What's that, like Southern etiquette type dude? You know, he's just super nice to people and I'm. I'm not. I'm like a New Englander who are born like, you know, angry and cold. You know, that's sort of my more. My more my general atmospherics that I give off, I guess. Even though, you know, I like to have fun too occasionally. Just not while we're at work. So. All right, that. Is that, Is that your list?

[Bobby Holland]

I. I have one more.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, let's go.

[Bobby Holland]

Funny one. Okay, so this has no context beyond the context I'm giving it here. But never miss an opportunity to take a piss.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Bobby Holland]

I think this does apply.

[Jocko Willink]

This is a good one.

[Bobby Holland]

He's a team guy, but I got a story as a new guy. We were doing a. I believe we were working in Fallon and we're doing. Back then we did a lot of SR training and like hardcore SR training. Long inserts, long infills. This was supposed to be a 20 minute insert and you know, multi day opera carrying a bunch of.

[Jocko Willink]

So I'm like, did you pre hydrate?

[Bobby Holland]

Oh, dude, you know it.

[Jocko Willink]

That's a big one. So echo Charles. You're gonna go in the field for two days, three days, and you gotta carry a ton of water. You can actually drink enough water before you go that you won't need water for the first day. Yeah, like, I'm serious. That seems crazy. But you can do it. And generally speaking, you kind of want to do it because you don't want to. There's nothing worse than being thirsty. Talking about, you know, when Bob was going through heat exhaustion or Maddie, you don't. That's a terrible thing. You're a total. You're a total soup sandwich. It's just terrible. So like the pre hydration of just pounding water is what everyone does and you think, cool, I'll piss right before I get on the airplane, hopefully. Or right, right before I get on the hilo. And then it's 20 minute insert. Cool. No, you don't even think about it that much. Yeah, because normally if you got to take a pitch, take a piss, you don't always have those opportunities. All right, proceed.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, so we're moving. And I did exactly that a pre hydrated because we had a long patrol after that. And so 15 minutes comes by. I'm like, okay, we're getting close. 20 comes by. I'm like, we're really close. And 30, it's like, okay, this is mnet, but I'm starting to. I got a piss. 30 becomes 45. Now we're in an hour. And I'm doing that. I'm doing the pee pee dance and I'm hurting. And so like, we get. I think we're 90 minutes in, and we get, we get to a hover and I'm like, oh, my God, thank God, it's now time. And we're hovering for about five minutes and I'm like, it's happening. And then we take off and we're another half an hour, I'm beside myself. And eventually two hours in, we land. And, you know, whatever, I, I go admin for, for a couple of minutes here. But the funny part, and when you were mentioning earlier about, you know, we're never going to stop a hilo for this one guy. Well, when we hovered that 90 minutes end, it's because the other hilo actually had them land because the guy had to piss really bad. And so.

[Jocko Willink]

And they didn't tell you?

[Bobby Holland]

They didn't tell me. Yeah. For the young team guys out there, bring a Gatorade bottle. When you're on a kilo, just bring.

[Jocko Willink]

Gatorade and you're all good.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. Good girl. And that's it for me.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, I got, I got some here. Some again, I was just kind of like going through my thoughts and of life. All right, well, and some of these we kind of hit on a little bit, but I'll bring them up again just, just as a little bit of an angle. Here's one. Team gear, platoon gear, personal gear than yourself.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So when you come back from an operation, you take care of the team gear first, which is like the, the freaking boats or whatever. Then you do platoon, go platoon gear, which is like your boats. Then you do your personal gear, then yourself. So don't be getting in the shower before your weapons clean. And don't clean your weapon until the Humvee is refueled and prepped. And if you, if you break this Procedure. It's a freaking mortal sin in the teams. It's a mortal sin to take care of your own before you took care of the platoon. Shit, that's the way it is. So that's my, that's my number one, number two. This came from my lpo, my first platoon. Always go out. And what he meant, because he was a partier, what he meant was always go out, like to the bar, to the pub. You land somewhere in some foreign city and the, you know the plane's gonna be on the ground for three hours. Go out. That's what he meant. I like rearranged it in my head to mean, like, hey, you go out. Like, you get a chance to do training, you get a chance to do a mission, you get a chance to. I don't care if you're gonna go out and I'm gonna be the, the freaking backup boat driver, but if that's what I, if that's a job I'm gonna be able to get, I'm gonna take it. You always go out if there's a training mission. Because I know it sounds crazy, but you get that point in the teams where you're on your third, fourth, fifth deployment and you're like, well, you know, SR team's going out. You know what? They only need six guys. There's eight guys in our squad. I can, I can stay back in the talk and do comms. Like, no, always go out. And that's a good attitude to have. There's the old one. Why sit? Why stand when you can sit? Why sit when you can lie down? There is validity to that. Like, if you get a chance to take a rest, take a rest. If there's a chance where nothing's going on, lay down, put your feet up, elevate your feet above your heart, you know, and sleep. You're gonna need sleep sometimes.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, that in buds, and I'm not sure if this was a tradition that you guys had or if it still goes on, but there used to be this hideout spot that.

[Jocko Willink]

There was no hideout spots when I.

[Bobby Holland]

Was in buds, the after chow, like the, the. The trick was the hack was we would eat fast and then we would go to this hideout spot and you would take a 15 minute nap. And that 15 minute nap was like a million man boss. But yeah, like, you know, you want to see a whole platoon of sleeping team guys, just take them up in the plane getting ready to jump. Every single dude is passed out.

[Jocko Willink]

I made one, which is, don't be so far forward leaning that you're in the leaning rest. So the leaning rest is the. Is the army term for, like, being in the push up position. They call it the front leaning rest. And yet you'd have these, like, officers that would be like, hey, we want to be forward leaning on this. And they would be so far forward leaning, like, hey, we need to prep the gear and do the rehearsal. Do this. All this stuff. You haven't even gotten tasked with a damn mission yet, and you're so far forward leaning that we're prepping for stuff that's not going to happen or could change radically. So it's good to be forward leaning. But don't be so far forward leaning that you're in leaning rest. Hey, use the chain of command. I know this might sound crazy. Use the chain of command up and down. And where does. What I remember about this is guys would come to me because I was bros with a lot of different dudes and like, guys that were four or five levels below me in the chain of command. They come up be like, hey, can we get this piece of gear? And I would always say, like, did you talk to your lpo? Did you talk to your chief? Like, you know, go talk to your chief, because your chief probably can make this happen without me. And by the way, your chief might have a reason why he doesn't want to do that. So go talk to your chief. And same thing. If guy's doing something jacked up. I'm not. My. My initial instinct isn't be like, go right to them. No, I'm gonna talk to a chief and say, hey, have you seen what Echo's doing? He seems like he's a little off track. Oh, let me find out what's going on. So just use the chain of command. No big deal. Never turn out a school you're offered. And then when you get to the school, be number one in the school. Yep, that's a. That's a good one. Your reputation is everything. And everything you do is your reputation. Everything you do, everything you do is your reputation, and your reputation is everything. So when you're doing dumb shit, don't do it. When there's an opportunity to cut a corner that you think no one's going to see, everyone's going to see it. They're going to find out about it, and they're going to hold it against you forever.

[Bobby Holland]

Y. True.

[Jocko Willink]

So just be careful. This was one that I learned early on. Avoid wearing. I think. I think this was in Mareno's book too. I think that's Where I remember it from, avoid wearing a uniform at all cost, but if you have to wear it, look perfect. That was 100% the way I operated. Like, I would do pretty much jump through hoops to avoid putting on a uniform, but if you got to put it on, you look freaking 100% squared away. Don't show up looking like a dipshit.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, I think, like, to that just to drill down on that. It's a part of showing people that you can play the game. Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

So it's not about being this prim and proper. It's. It's about doing what you need to do at that moment. And yeah, I think that's. That's part of it, man.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And I mean, this, this certainly as you remember, you know, in tasking a bruiser, I was like, hey, when you leave, I didn't care what you look like. On Shark Base, which became Camp Mark Lee, I didn't care if you wore flip flops, a freaking pair of surf shorts, and a Metallica T shirt when it's just seals. But when you left the base and you went to the chow hall or you went to work with one of the battalions, you. You got to be in a freaking squared away uniform. And a squared away uniform for us is like the bare minimum for the army or the Marine Corps. Like, they are more squared away than us with their uniforms, but at least you're going to be in a proper military uniform.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, it's a. I'm not sure if I mentioned this last time I was on, but I worked with the guy. He was the CMC maybe of the group at that time, and he came out to visit us in Ramadi. I worked with him later at buds and he was taken back. Like he remembered it vividly when he came to visit us. He's like, you know what really impressed me was you guys were so squared away looking when I arrived. Right? So like that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to, you know, send these signals to your chain of command leadership that you're squared away. You can follow directives and you can be reliable and trustworthy. And. And what does that cost you? It costs you nothing. Looks word way.

[Jocko Willink]

Just being professional and people are judgmental and look, what's this? What's the saying? Or you didn't put it in this thing. But you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. Look, a military human who's been wearing a uniform. If it's a. If it's a Master chief or a command sergeant major or a battalion commander. Like they've been in the military for 20 years if they, they cannot help looking at someone and judging them based on how they look and how squared away their uniform is or how shitty their uniform is. So you freaking squared your away and they go, oh cool. These guys are at least, you know, the professional unit, so totally important. And you know, there's this old document floating around. It's Huck Harbors 69 steps to Frogman Perfection.

[Bobby Holland]

I love it.

[Jocko Willink]

And I'm definitely. Some of these are, some of these are from that. I got to give the, the shout out to that. One of them was don't get mad, get a degree. And look, what it's basically saying is when you're in the military, the military is going to take a lot from you. You know what I mean? Like, you're going to, you're going to sacrifice for the military. And don't get mad about that. The military has programs where you can go to college, where you can get a degree, where you can get housing allowances. Like there's all these things that the military can do, but you got to have to take advantage of them. So don't get pissed off at the military. Just figure out how to take advantage of it. But what I like about that is you can apply that to anything. You can apply that to anything. Like you can get mad about stuff or you can figure out how to utilize it. Stay with your swim buddy. Of course. And what's, you know, this is, this is such an important foundation of the SEAL teams is you always have a swim buddy. And the reason you always have a swim buddy. And I think it's more prominent because in, in the army they have battle buddies. There's, there's similar ideas in other, in the rest of the military, but in the SEAL teams, because we're in the water and the water is such a high risk environment, you have to have a swim buddy. You have to have a swim buddy. And so we get that, you know, pushed onto our brains while we're going through basic skill training. And part of the embedded portion of that is that you, your buddy comes first. Like your, your buddy comes first. This is like cover move, which is one of the things that you mentioned is I am going to take care of my friend. And you know, it's funny because we always used to talk about like it would be, I would much rather get shot in the kill house by one of my friends than shoot one of my friends. Like, not even not Even a question. And so the fact that that's, that's one of these things, like you always put your, your buddy first, you put your squat, your fire team first, you put your squad first, you put your platoon first, you put the team first. All of that comes before you. So that's part of it. The other part of it is there's this thing with communications and your cryptological gear, and it's the old safes that we used to have had two combinations on them, which meant that you needed two people to open the safe.

[Bobby Holland]

Tpi.

[Jocko Willink]

Tpi. Two person integrity. Here's what's kind of cool about that, is if I'm about to do some knucklehead shit, Bob, like two person integrity, for me to be like, hey, this seems like I think I've got a good idea, you know, and if you, if I do it solo, cool. I have no two person integrity. But to have at least someone that goes, hey, hey, Nako, are you sure about this? Or like, maybe the consequences of what you're thinking might not be worth the effort here. So I think that's another important component. And it doesn't always save us in the SEAL teams, because sometimes like, hey, Bob, I got a great idea. And you go, that sounds great to me. But oftentimes it's like, hey, I think I got a good idea. It's like, well, we, we might want to rethink that before we roll on it, so stick with your swim buddy. Here's another one from Hawk Harbor. A miserable day in the teams is better than the best day of the office. Or maybe that one's not. Maybe that one's mine, but there's something similar to that. And again, this is just framing up life, right? Worst case scenario, you're at the team and there is an inspection, and you gotta put your uniform on for 40 minutes while there's an inspection. It's like. And team guys will about that stuff too. Are you kidding me? What the hell? Like, what kind of tyrannical rear echelon is this? And it's like, bro, you've. You haven't even been to work in three days.

[Bobby Holland]

Well, if the guys aren't complaining, then I start worrying.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Another one from Hulk. Breaking contact is not surrender. Good thing to remember. Breaking contact is not surrender. Just because you disengage from a fight doesn't mean you're surrendering. It just means you're disengaging from that particular fight at that particular moment. So there's times where the prudent move is to back down. There's times when the prudent move is to leave. I know. Even, even we got ambushed a few times my first deployment to Iraq. And you know, their temptation would always be like, stop, go back and assault. But it's like, oh, we, we're okay. We, they, they fired two RPGs and they missed with both and they fired a bunch of machine gun rounds at us. And now we're gonna, like, we made it through unscathed. The temptation is like, oh, AC130 can see them. Okay, cool, let's turn around and go back and get him. When we never did, it was always tempting. We always had another mission that we were going on, but it was always very tempting. But just thinking, like, you know what, I think we'll be all right.

[Bobby Holland]

This is their terrain too. And you don't know what IDs lurk in front of you.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. Have a plan. Isn't it interesting? Seems so obvious. Have a plan. Like, oh yeah. But I'll tell you where this would come into play with me. When guys would be getting out at the 10 year mark or the 8 year mark or the 12 year mark, and I'd be like, oh, cool, what's your plan? And they'd kind of give me the, the tilted head look because they didn't have a plan. Well, how are you going to pay your rent in three months? You know, like, how are you going to pay your car payment? By the way, I saw you just pull up in your new freaking super duty Harley Davidson version F350 that you paid $88,000 for. Well, you didn't pay it all because you only put in $4,000 down payment. So your car payments, like 1100 bucks a month. How are you gonna pay for that? So what is your plan? And as much time as we spend in the SEAL teams planning for us to roll out and do execute things with no plan whatsoever. And look, it's cool. You can do this with your kids. Like, here's the plan, here's what we're doing. And having a plan will keep you out of trouble. Having a plan will keep you efficient. Having a plan will make everything better in your life. Now you gotta be able to react, be able to react when things don't go as planned.

[Bobby Holland]

But have a baseline with some reasonable contingencies.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, with a couple contingencies. Just in case this, just in case that we're covered. And right along with that is another good one. Plan your dive and dive. Your plan. So you come up with a Plan. This comes from diving. You know, you come up with a plan. Bob and I are swim buddies here. We're going to dive this, do that, do that. And then when we get underwater it's like, well, actually I think I'm in a different spot so I'm going to do something radically different and everything goes to shit. So as much as possible, plan your dive and try and stick to it. You can't always stick to it because this is contrary to like, oh, the plane goes out the window at the first contact. Look, there's, that's, that's a little bit of, that's an exaggeration. Right. And can that happen? Yes, that can happen, but it really shouldn't happen. Your plan should be good enough that. Oh yeah, we get contacted, look, our standard operating procedures come into play and we'll execute an immediate action drill. Occasionally your plan goes out the window. Occasionally should be rare that your plan goes completely out the window. Now listen, if you've planned a hyper detailed plan and you think everything's going to go according to this hyper detailed plan, that ain't going to work. That ain't going to work. But if you have a plan, a good plan, a solid plan, a plan that is flexible, then you shouldn't have to abandon your plan just because something didn't go as expected. So plan your dive. Dive your plan. Occasionally do you got a very drastically. Yes, occasionally you do. Don't cling to your plan if it's not working. That's a leadership thing where it's like, no, we're keep doing this. Stick to the plan. Stick to the plan. It's like, oh, the plan is not working. If the plan is not working, stop it. But don't abandon your plan too easily.

[Bobby Holland]

Again, if you have reasonable contingencies along the five stages of the operation, there, there's little checkpoints, you're hitting that. If this happens, we're doing this. If this happens, we're doing that. So yeah, no reason you shouldn't be abandoning your plan unless it's completely gone.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, here's like one of the most pragmatic things I have on this list. Bring a beanie and a Gore Tex jacket. Like I'm telling you what, bring a beanie, bring a wool beanie and a Gore Tex jacket. I don't care. You know, you're going out for a three hour operation and, and there's a couple different types of Gore Tex jackets, but you know, I'm talking about a shell and you got like a heavy duty one and you got a lightweight one. And look, sometimes the lightweight one, like you're going out for three hours. It's. It's pretty moderate temperatures.

[Bobby Holland]

Cool.

[Jocko Willink]

No big deal. Bring the lightweight one. But if there's a chance you might be wet, if there's a chance, bring that heavy, nice, freaking badass Gore Tex jacket. Because when you get stuck on St. Nicholas island for 19 hours waiting for the Mark Vs to come and recover you and you have no possible way of staying we warm, you're gonna freaking hate your life and possibly get hypothermic. So. God, those, those were the best jackets. The old school, extreme wet, cold weather Gore Tex jackets. They're standard military issue. They were freaking heavy duty. You could put that thing on in the worst weather and, and be like, pretty okay. And in those jackets, they had this big velcro pocket on, on the left and right side. So where the zipper is, you didn't have to undo the zipper, but you could just rip this big Velcro thing inside that thing. I had a wool beanie. I always had those things with me. Now look, did I have them in Ramadi? Was in 120 degrees. Nope, that's the one. You know, AO. But if it's not a, if it's not over a hundred degrees, I'm gonna say that maybe 90 if it's not, because I'll tell you what. Go to go to our desert training facility.

[Bobby Holland]

I have a story in mind. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah. You'll freeze your nuts off. Go ahead. What do you got? Yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

No, I. I had never gone until my fifth pump out there. I'd never been out there when it wasn't the summer.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh.

[Bobby Holland]

And so I did, I did a, you know, a workup out there, and I think we went in December and I'd never experienced rain or cold. And we did, we did a training OP where it was like, you know, one platoon's doing Achille in a village or something, and the other platoon is basically holding, you know, outward security, if you will, external security on the mountains there. And it was supposed to be just a short iteration, like an hour. And it was one of those trick fuckery events where it was a remain over night Jack. And it, it rained. And I check our platoon Charlie, or sorry, was it. No, it's Bravo. We're stuck on the mountain all night. Get some getting pissed on. And that was one of the coldest moments I'd had since buds. I was there with my oic and we were just jackhammering and just regretting not Having a beanie and some Gore Tex.

[Jocko Willink]

Beanie and Gore Texas go a long way. It's kind of like in Southern California. Bring a hoodie. You know what I'm saying? Bring a hoodie. Now, look, I've been trying to explain this to my wife and I have no idea how it's not landed yet. But, you know, we'll be going out at 2:00 in the afternoon. 2:00 in the afternoon, bro. It's in San Diego. It's 70, 75, it's sunny, it's a little bit hot. You might want to take your shirt off, like, you know, you're good. And then you fast forward, the sun goes down, bro, all of a sudden it's 48 degrees, it's cold. You have a hoodie. It's no factor. It's actually meant for a hoodie. Southern California is meant for a hoodie. They made hoodies for Southern California for that very reason. So, you know, no factor. And I look at my wife, what's she doing? She's jackhammering. Now I gotta give her my hoodie. So I've surrendered. Trying to convince her I put a extra hoodie in the vehicle for two.

[Bobby Holland]

Is one, one is not. Yes, full circle.

[Jocko Willink]

Because I'm sick of giving it up and being like, cool, I'll just freeze. I told, I literally looked right at you and said, bring a hoodie. And you said, it's nice out, bro. It ain't that nice out. That's, that's the bottom line. So bring a beanie and bring a Gore Tex jacket. That's, that's my advice to you. And then the last one I got, I think we, we talked about this a little bit already, but train and maintain your body and mind. And you know, the Hawk harbor thing says something like, train your body and mind. And in the SEAL teams and I think in life, we generally tend to get too focused on one or too focused on the other. We either spend all of our time training the physical physicality of it. In SEAL teams, like so much is based on your physicality that you people don't. People ignore, hey, the knowledge. And then I think in the civilian sector, a lot of times it gets focused so much on knowledge that people forget about the physicality. And so I think it's important to, to train and maintain both. And what we're learning now too is in order to maintain, especially your brain, in order to maintain your brain, you gotta, you gotta introduce new things to your brain, you know, you gotta introduce new things to Your brain, otherwise it gets going to get stagnant. So learning new skills, learning new languages, learning new instruments, just learning things is beneficial. And you have to look. Sometimes you say you're not that interested in something or you can't find something cool. You just have to find something that you're interested in. You got to try and learn it, as silly as that might sound. And then what we already talked about, physically, you got to keep moving. You got to keep moving. So otherwise you're going to lose it. That's what I got. You're. You're, you're kind of a learner. Echo Charles.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yes, I believe.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, you're like, you know, you get these things. I mean, they're all kind of computer centric, generally speaking. Oh, is there things that aren't generally speaking? Have you started playing ukulele for real yet? Could you ask me about it like a year ago?

[Echo Charles]

Dabbling.

[Jocko Willink]

Are you dabbling currently?

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Bobby Holland]

Do you have it here?

[Jocko Willink]

Can you play a song?

[Echo Charles]

Cannot play. Play a song, bro.

[Jocko Willink]

There's songs that have one chord.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. Then I can play a song then.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, so you.

[Echo Charles]

In principle. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you. So you're not, you're not playing dabbling.

[Echo Charles]

I'd say dabbling is accurate, bro.

[Jocko Willink]

Let's. Let's just get you a song down.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It's freaky. The ukulele's, that's. Yeah, but you, you spend more of your time learning about the computer techniques, tactics. Techniques, Techniques and procedures. Oh, yeah, what you say? Oh, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Yesterday, that was a good one.

[Jocko Willink]

Now, what was interesting about that? There's a couple things that I noticed about that.

[Echo Charles]

What.

[Jocko Willink]

What program was that?

[Echo Charles]

I forget, I forget the program. There's a few of them, but you might be familiar with this where it's like you get a picture and then you use these new AI tools and it'll start animating the picture into a video. Whatever you tell it to do.

[Bobby Holland]

Like Adobe Firefly, maybe.

[Echo Charles]

I. There's a bunch familiar. Yeah, but, but yeah, you. I mean, we've seen it before, you know. Well, I have seen many of them, so, yeah, I looked into that and yeah, it's pretty. It's fun. It's not there yet.

[Jocko Willink]

What surprised me about it was as the angle changed, you got to see things that were behind me in the actual photo that you couldn't see at all in the picture. But it made things up to go there, right? Well, actually freaking impressive.

[Echo Charles]

It grabs elements and it's like, oh, there's a tree back there. And, oh, is there. Is that a. This is. You know, I'm the AI Talking. Oh, is there another tree? Oh, I see a road. I see a brick wall. And then. So it zooms out and pans up and whatever. And then you had to recreate this whole environment.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

It's very interesting. But with that, it just says, since it only can see a face at one angle.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

You know, there's a.

[Bobby Holland]

It gets weird. You get this shadow, you know, weird shifty face thing going on.

[Echo Charles]

Turn into a different person is what it'll happen. And what will happen. So even with you, actually, oddly. Okay, so there's this classic photo of Jocko, like, with his gun or whatever, and he's all angry or whatever, and there's a brick wall behind everything. He was happy in that one, but. Yeah, but. And it's like. It's not black and white. It's like a. What you call. There's a name for sepia or sepia or something. Right. Like one of, like, a warm brown. So he's standing against this wall with a gun. More like someone's like, hey, Jocko, let's take a picture.

[Jocko Willink]

And he was actually. It's in the take. The picture's taken in the streets of Ramadi, so it's not like I was out there freaking coking and joking, bro.

[Echo Charles]

No, he was very unhappy to be taking that picture. Apparently, that's what it looked like on the picture.

[Bobby Holland]

But Leif was always smiling. Yeah, in the same picture.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Well, this might have been Jocko smiling, but either way, they look the same, in my opinion. So I. I took that one and made a video into. Actually made a bunch of them. But the one. The one A showed you was like one of the first ones, whatever. And then. So I was like, okay, make Jocko start laughing and then something else. Right? And then. So he's standing there all mad, then he just starts laughing all crazy. But he turned into a different person a little bit.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Actually, I'll show it to you after this. I have it on my phone. But yeah, it's. That's one of those things where, you know, when you see that done, you're kind of like, oh, this is gonna, like, take over a bunch of stuff. And I. With this particular one, I was like, I don't see it. I don't see how it'll take over anything, really. But when the novelty wears off, it won't really, because, like, in old. This is what they. What they kind of introduced when they introduced it it was a lot of like old photos, let's say of your great grandparents. Right, the black and white, whatever, and they start animating them or these old, you know, and then after the novelty wears off, you're kind of like, wait a second, they didn't really do that. This is a computer recreation of something that didn't happen at all. So it's kind of like, okay, it's fun, it's cute, but no one's gonna really, you know, attribute that much value to it at the end of the day. That was my hypothesis.

[Jocko Willink]

But it, but there, there are obviously some seriously beneficial things that you could do or productive things because you could make a scene. You know, if, if you were to make a movie and you needed to show something that you didn't, that didn't happen, or that you didn't have the budget to put in the, the movie, then you could animate it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully. And, and yeah, there are, there are certain applications, but I didn't see that as fulfilling the lack of, for lack of better term, the hype that was behind it at the time.

[Jocko Willink]

I saw a movie that was completely generated by like AI and it looked pretty freaking good. It was like a, it was like a three minute or maybe like a two minute movie. Yeah, I think it was made by Unreal. Unreal Engine.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, but that's, that's.

[Jocko Willink]

It was a car scene. It was like shootout, I think, but it looked freaking great.

[Echo Charles]

I mean, I don't know that Unreal Engine generates AI stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay, well, maybe it wasn't, but I don't freaking know. I'm not.

[Echo Charles]

Yes, that's obvious. Demonstrated that. But no, no, but I'm saying that's what I thought at the time. And then when I see like little, I saw little things where I was like, oh, I see where they could go with it. Remember Forrest Gump? Yeah. Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Remember the recreated scenes of like JFK and all that stuff? And, and if you watch it now, you're like, oh, that's not real or whatever. But the air, the AI stuff. Now they could have done that with the, with that scene and it would have looked way better. Yeah, you got to kind of tweak it and stuff. But it would have. So there's little specific applications now my mind has changed is what I'm saying. So that's why I went in there. I was like, probably got to get to know this stuff because probably could do some cool stuff, small stuff. I'm not gonna make a whole movie, I don't think.

[Bobby Holland]

But the more pictures, the more information you give it, the better it's going to be.

[Echo Charles]

That's a different thing. Yes, but that's another AI Thing that's like, you know, if you're doing a deep fake or so, you know, something along those lines. But this one is literally to be like, hey, this photo right here, since it's a special photo, very unique, like, once, literally one photo out of existence, do something with it, make it into, like a fun movie or whatever. And so, yeah, I'm kind of convinced a little bit more now that it's going to have this. There's going to be some value there.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, it's. It's definitely helping us on the marketing side. I mean, just coming up with marketing materials and backgrounds and stuff like that. It's. It's going to be interesting to see where it is in a couple years.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully y. But, yes, I'm a learner. Yeah, sure.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's what you've been learning.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, a few things. Other. Other stuff as well. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I feel like when I sit down to try stuff like that, like, I don't have enough contextual knowledge that I'm just like, opinion, you know, it's like trying to learn Jiu Jitsu. You're, like, looking at it and you're like, you know, this is an uma plata. And you just go, dude, what. What is happening?

[Echo Charles]

Right? You're like that. You're more right than you know. And I know I say that sometimes joking, but that applies to kind of anything. So if it's like, hey, I want to. Let's say, hey, you're, you know, say either move it or lose it kind of a thing. So if it's like, hey, I'm gonna do Jiu Jitsu, right? I'm a start. Jiu jitsu. I'm 40 years old or whatever, but I'm way out of shape. Where it's like that. At the end of the day, that doesn't matter as much as you might think. But it doesn't matter. If you kept staying, if you kept in shape and stuff like that. Going to jump into Jiu Jitsu, no problem. It's way easier. Seems so. Yeah. You could. Jocko, maybe not Jocko Lee Bob. You could open up Adobe After Effects. We'll say, have, you know what After Effects.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, I've been in there and I've done a lot of these things. Again, like what I was sitting on earlier, wearing a lot of hats. Being a small team and like you, you got to figure out, so I've. Yeah, a lot of these technologies, like a Illustrator.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Bobby Holland]

I taught myself how to design an illustrator.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

So I'm pretty impressed with your shirt designs too. Like, thanks, man.

[Bobby Holland]

I appreciate it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, like the fact the first time you told me that you designed them, I was like, oh, and you only had a couple at the time. But now that I've seen like the full, the full spectrum of Hooligan golf shirts, including the one you're wearing right now. But they, like, you obviously have figured out how to do it really well because you got kick ass designs. They all look cool. Yeah, it's dope.

[Bobby Holland]

No, thanks, man. And just to be clear there, we have a designer as well. So I haven't done all the designs. This pattern was done by someone else. But yeah, it's creating repeatable patterns, which is a whole technique in and of itself. But, you know, I mean, kind of circling back to what we're talking about earlier is early on in Hooli, we were trying to come up with these kick ass designs. And it started, you know, I had these concepts and working with the designer, it was taking a really long time to get from. Here's the idea. You give me the first draft back and forth. We're taking really long. And so I was like, why don't I just learn this damn program? Because then you can give me something, I can make a couple of tweaks on my own and we're just good, you know. So we turned something that took like five months to like two weeks.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I'm laughing because I've had to design things in the past years and I send like the most rudimentary freaking sketches to Echo and then he makes them execute.

[Echo Charles]

Translate it, Translate. But see, like, okay, we'll take Illustrator, for example. You know how to use Illustrator. Just, we'll say for the fundamentals of Illustrator, I'm good now. Okay, okay, good. You're good at Illustrator. So now if you open like Photoshop, you're going to be like, oh, I can use Photoshop. You're hitting the ground running. As opposed to Jocko. He's going to be like, he's going to open Photoshop and be like, this is literally a different language to me. So it's like, what am I going to spend all this time just learning what I'm looking at? That's a whole, like, that's not even one process. That's a bunch of processes. You know what I'm saying? But then now you go, okay, I can use this Photoshop. It's Pretty good. Now you can open like advanced stuff, like After Effects or something. And you like, okay, this is hard. But I can see how hard it is versus Jockey is gonna. Everything's just gonna look like a different language. You see, I'm saying. So you can't really learn as much.

[Jocko Willink]

That is how it looks to me.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, I don't comprehend this at all. Zero comprehension.

[Echo Charles]

That's how it looks for most people. So, like, think about code. You ever watched or you ever see, like, code written out?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Like computer code.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Okay, so HTML. You know what HTML is? I, I, it's called the hyper. Yeah, it's called HTML. It's not even considered code. That's how like basic it is. Right.

[Bobby Holland]

No one knows what it actually stands for.

[Echo Charles]

Just hypertext markup language. But, but there's HTML, then there's like JavaScript and there's like C Sharp. Then there's like, then there's like Python. There's all these different codes and they have different levels of advance. You look at any code, it's all code. But certain people, if they know the basic code, they're gonna be like, okay, I know what this code, they're just going to have a platform to kind of stand on. You see, I'm saying to learn that next thing. And if you don't, you kind of lost.

[Jocko Willink]

I got a. A company that I'm involved with called Black Box blackbox AI. It's amazing because it is taking English and turning it into code. So you can literally make a program just by telling it what kind of program you want. It will code for you. And we got some stuff. I'm. I want to do something where I just make. To show people how easy it is. Because it goes from what you just talked about, where I look at Photoshop or whatever you said, Adobe Illustrator, and it's, it's completely foreign to me. But Black Box AI, I look at it and there's just a prompt box and you can start to communicate in English, which I'm very familiar with.

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

To get it to begin to perform and execute the writing of code, which I don't know anything. I don't even know what HTML stands for. And yet I have this thing programming things for me. It's pretty amazing.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, this is. So I use Chat GPT in a similar fashion and it's getting better, like each and every month, but it's another tool. Like you can ask it to do that and it'll, it'll get you to.

[Jocko Willink]

A certain level if you Use Black Box. It's better because Black Box is strictly for coding.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, and they, so if you take all the, if you take all the resources that chat GPT takes and you know, they put it towards understanding books and understanding, you know, podcast. There's everything. But what blackbox does is it's just code. So it just studies code and reinforces code and checks code over and over and over again. So when you put stuff in there, it's, it's infinitely more accurate than what the other AI program programs are doing. So yeah, it's pretty sick. It's pretty sick to see. And, and like since I get to see the numbers behind the scenes and like percentage of accuracy. It's incredible. Yeah, it's incredible. It is better than human. You know what I mean? And I'm not just talking about Jono human knuckle dragger. I'm talking a human that codes for a living. This thing, these, they don't make mistakes. You know, it's like that accurate. And the fact that it just checks and rechecks itself, it's. It. The world's changing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. It's going to be interesting to see how it evolves. Right. Because. And not talking about this in particular, but just AI the way it's moving, I mean, has the potential to like copywriters, people who do emails and these other things. Like you can just press the button now. So you know how that is going to evolve? Is that going to eliminate some sort of industries or.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, there's definitely going to be industries that are being eliminated. And the interesting thing is, is. Is what's going to be taken away is the creativeness. Right? The creative and the. It's going to be interesting. I was, I always tell the story about, you know, the White Stripes, the band.

[Bobby Holland]

Oh yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So Jack White. So he's got this thing where, you know, he, he explains how they make pop music and the way that they make pop music. For instance, the way he explains it is they take a snare drum and they'll like hit the snare drum, drum a hundred times and they'll look at the computer, you know, sound dynamics of, of all of them and they pick the one that is most perfect and they take that, that one snare hit and that's the one they use for every hit on the snare in a song. And they do the same thing with the symbol and they do the same thing with the hi hat and they do the same thing with the guitar and the piano and everything else. So everything is perfect. Perfect. And so when you hear it, a human being can tell that there's something soulless about this music. Now, look, that music is popular. This is like all the popular music that Katie Perry and whoever like, the popular pop music is all computer perfected. And that's why we listen to White Stripes. And he's like, oh, yeah, we recorded our second album in the. In the stairwell of my rented, you know, townhouse, and put mics in the different rooms. And. And that's why you can hear that there's mistakes.

[Bobby Holland]

Depth.

[Jocko Willink]

There's depth and there's soul to it. So when. When you start talking about writing. Okay, so we can have. There's going to be things that are. So you know what it's like. You know, you can get a diamond. You know, they can tell like a fake diamond versus real diamond. A fake diamond has no flaws. It's too perfect. And a real diamond has, like. Doesn't matter how perfect. You get a 10 out of 10 as a real diamond, you can still go, oh, yeah, there's a little. Little something wrong there. And guess what has more value? The one that's real. And so I think there's going to be some. Some sort of gap between those two, between, like a perfectly written piece that was written. And just to land so perfect with you, Bob the consumer, this email is going to go out to you and it's going to sound so perfect, and you're going to be like, you know, is this thing real? You know, something in the back. You might not even think that consciously, but subconsciously, you're like, oh, cool, I'm getting this. Is the algorithm coming at me. Whereas something that has a human element of, like, whether it's humor or irony or drama, that, that, That a computer now looks. Is it gonna be able to create it eventually? Can you say, like, hey, put. Make this funny. Make this shocking. Have you seen that thing that's talking about Tulsi Gabbard? It's, it's. It's Grok. Like angry Grok or something like that.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's like, Tulsi Gabbard don't give a. She'll tell people what's what. Like, you're like, oh, it sounds like what a human would say. So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they'll be able to overcome and maybe say, oh, yeah, make the snare drum human. And it'll add the variations that are needed. So did I just talk myself out of my. My theory?

[Echo Charles]

No, no, no. You're both, you're both of Your little theories put together is one unified theory. Okay. That is correct.

[Bobby Holland]

Artificial general intelligence. That's. That's the one that like the AI becomes self learning to the point to where it's like very, very human. That's I think what lot of folks are concerned about.

[Echo Charles]

Like, so even with graphics and video, especially computer generated video, you run into that problem too. Or things are too. Like if you want to do digital camera movement. Right. If you want to do a, let's say a pan or a whip pan or something, it'll just go. It's too computerized. Right. So it doesn't look like someone was holding that. So af after a certain amount of time, whatever people invented a thing or whoever does these, does the code for the, for the program. They have a thing called easy ease. So it's easy ease in and out. So it just goes. Basically it's an acceleration. Right. Instead of. It kind of accelerates into it. Right. But even that's too smooth, just like how you're saying where it's like, sure, the computer can try to fake it, you know, but you still. Like a person is so imperfect even to the smallest thing. And with some stuff, not everything with some stuff people can just tell, you know, like the. They need that imperfection to, for it to be convincing. And it's such a. It's on such a micro level that if it's not there or if even if that's replicated.

[Jocko Willink]

Right.

[Echo Charles]

You can sort of feel it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Some things more than others. So after a while they added a feature called camera shake. So it like it feels. But even that if you get really used to it, if you're really used to the camera shake.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

No matter how much you adjust it, you're like, it's not the same.

[Bobby Holland]

Too much of a pattern, but too.

[Jocko Willink]

Much of a pattern get there.

[Echo Charles]

Yes. So this is what they do.

[Jocko Willink]

Randomized camera shake or something.

[Echo Charles]

But even the randomized. It's like I don't think a human hand camera shake is really randomized at the end of the day. I think it's based on something, something nature, you know. And we're in touch with that on a level that maybe might not. Might go beyond just our consciousness. So this is what they do with a camera shake. They'll take little presets and this is how they're made. Let's say Lee Bob has a camera. He films a black wall with a white square on it or a white X. He'll just film it with his hand. That's a real camera Shake. Now, they'll take that footage and base the camera shake in the program on Lead Bob's actual camera shake, pixel by pixel. You see what I'm saying? Then you can get these camera shake elements and presets, and then you get.

[Bobby Holland]

Millions of those inputs. And then it's truly like, you know.

[Echo Charles]

It starts to be. Yeah, it starts to be, but I feel like. I don't know, brother. Certain things where it's really. I don't know. They'd have to go so deep. And after a certain amount of time, maybe, but I don't know. I don't know. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, it becomes this big argument, like, what if right now we're living in a simulation? And it's based on that idea where it was like, yeah, there was just computers and people, but the computers were like, hey, we're too computery. We got to be more like people. Oh, that's not quite as convincing. Let's, you know, let's refine that into this imperfect thing. And then after a while, it's like, and here we are. See what I'm saying?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. There's a. Another thing. There's some spark, right? There's some spark of creativity that comes into the world. And, you know, my. One of the ways that I explain this to people is you may or may not be able to produce a spark. And if you go down to Guitar center, where they sell guitars, and you hang up a sign that says, I need a guitarist that can play the following albums, and you can name the most complex, complicated albums. Rush, Led Zeppelin, just. Just name them all. And. And you will get probably five people from every guitar center in America that say. Will say legitimately, yes, I can play all those. And yet, when you call them, you're like, what do you do for a living? And they're like, oh, I. You know, I work at, you know, Olive Garden or whatever. Like, I'm a waiter or I'm. And even though they're so skilled at the technique, technical aspect of playing guitar, they don't have whatever little thing it is that allows them to create music. Now, you take, like, Kurt Cobain, who was, I mean, obviously a skilled guitarist, but he wasn't, like, some technical genius or he wasn't a technical expert at guitar. He was a very good guitarist, but he wasn't better than a guy at Guitar center that can play every Rush song. And so. And yet he could go, dane, Dan. And he had that little spark of creativity, and, you know, he made music so there is some. And I don't know. This is. I don't know if we can have a computer where, with all the millions of inputs that you just talked about, Bob, like, billions of inputs that it get, can it create something totally unique that has the actual spark of creativity?

[Bobby Holland]

It's possible, but what's to distinguish, right? Like, if the AGI comes to fruition of it developing like a human mind, you know, I mean, like, we all develop from. From babies to where we are now with the. It's a collection of experiences and trial and errors, you know?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. I guess it feels like you'd have to consider why it would need to be like a human mind. Because human mind is like. And I was talking to Dr. Luke about this, like, why would a computer want to do whatever it wants to do, right? It's like, okay, you answer that question. And it's like, why does a person want to do what a person wants to do? So it was like, okay, so if I can get a little bit crass here. So let's say there's a group of guys, right? And they're in a room and they're trying to, I don't know, they're building, I don't know, some tables or something, and a girl walks in. Now they're there to build the table, but a girl walks in. Some guys are married, some guys are not. Those guys attention goes to that girl. And so their motivation in being there changes in a lot of ways. So it's. It's sexual motivation, and it's for a bunch of different reasons. So. And then those. Those reasons are linked to a bunch of other stuff, right? And it's. And that's it. That's the fundamental, like, roots of being a human, some of them. Now, why would a computer replicate that or how would it seem saying, like, can. Can a computer get jealous? You know, you'd kind of have to program that in, you know, can. Can a computer, like, get distracted in a sexual way? You know, because that's kind of part of our being a little bit. See what I'm saying? Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like hunger and ego and jealousy and anger and all those. Like, you're gonna write some good rock and roll songs when you're angry, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

You're gonna write some good blues songs when you get dumped, right? Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I'm gonna paint some good. Some good paintings when you're distressed about something, right?

[Echo Charles]

And when you think about it, computers always have, like, this mission, right? This pro. Like, this computer Is there to do something. You know, even if you say, hey, free associate as a computer. Computer would be like, okay, that's my new mission. Free association, right? People will have our mission. Hell yeah. No matter how focused and concentrated we are on this mission, we can still get distracted in principle. You know, we can get distracted. We can get like all these things can deviate, make us deviate from the mission.

[Jocko Willink]

And not to mention, you can get distracted from nothing but be but what's inside your own head.

[Echo Charles]

And that becomes in and of itself a thing. You see what I'm saying? So it's like this. It's almost like there's two different systems running. No matter how advanced the AI gets, it's like. It's almost like something has to be in there to kind of direct it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

The same way a person is.

[Bobby Holland]

If they start merging, you know, sentience with biologics, then maybe that gap is closed down.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, but even that's a different thing. You know, I think that. I don't even think that would be considered general.

[Jocko Willink]

Whatever intelligence, I. I often compare it to life because, you know, we know what chemicals and molecules and atoms are inside of like an amoeba, but we can't make one. We can't make one come to life. Like, we don't have. We can put all the. Stir it together, mix it all up, but it doesn't turn into an amoeba, which is the simplest, you know, cell form there is. And so maybe this is one of those, like, things that cannot be crossed. You can't actually ever spark that creativity in AI, But I guess we're going to find out the coming years. We find out real quick too. And. But maybe you can get real close to it. You know, you can get real close to it. Like right now we can, we can gross. We can graph skin cells, we can make from stem cells, we can make it grow into something, but we. There's a one line we can't cross.

[Echo Charles]

I feel, I don't know, we've been talking out of school for the last however long, but I will add this to the mix of ignorance that we're talking about. I feel like there is. I feel like eventually we will be able to. I feel like it's like, you know, that last thing, it's probably not just one thing. It's probably like a last little group of puzzle pieces and it's gonna have to do with something that we're just not paying attention to right now. You know, how, like, certain things where it's like you put all the ingredients in and you're like, why isn't it happening? Oh, wait, I had to put in the oven for half an hour. That's the ingredient. I wasn't thinking about that. I was thinking about all the ingredients. See what I'm saying? So it's like, it'll be something like that, I think. I think, like, it'll be like, oh, wait, maybe some time. Like. Like crazy amount of time, too. And then after that certain amount of time, now, this. This collection of whatever chemicals has the capability to do this stuff now. Or it's time plus something, you know, something that we're just not paying attention to right now. It feels like that's going to be the little factor.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, when. When we're old men is going to get weird, you know? Feels like it a couple decades away.

[Echo Charles]

Well, we're keeping learning, though, so. Yes, yes, of course.

[Jocko Willink]

That goes. Learning and. And contemplating. Contemplating philosophizing over here.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

We'll get some feedback. I wonder if people want to hear the philosophization of the whole scenario. Most likely not. All right. In the meantime, some good rules, you know, Training. We're getting better, we're getting stronger. Training our mind, training our body. Gonna need fuel for that situation. We recommend jockey fuel. Hey, check it out. We got energy drinks. What do you got over there? Pink lemonade?

[Bobby Holland]

I do. Is that your go to Black cherry vanilla?

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, nice.

[Bobby Holland]

Number one for me. This is number two.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I'm. That's probably number two for me as well. My number one is still iced tea lemonade, which I'm on my second right now, which is kind of cool because I don't always. You know, I like to come in to the podcast. I almost always. Well, 99 of the time I'm drinking a go during the podcast or just before the podcast, but getting into two, it's not every time, you know, but that's what we're doing. Jocko fuel. Check out jockofuel.com. we got energy drink. We got protein, we got greens, we got hydration. We got. We got Cold War, you know, we got everything that you need. Joint warfare.

[Echo Charles]

Some of the things that I feel like we don't draw as much attention as we could, which it has one of those hidden. Something that might be interpreted as a hidden value is the magnesium, the krill oil, like that kind of. That kind of stuff. That's not like, oh, hell yeah, protein. Get my. Like, of course. That's freaking good. Of course. But if you look into, like, magnesium for example, and the benefits of that and how we're kind of like unhealthy because of lack of magnesium. I think you'd be surprised.

[Jocko Willink]

Go check it out. Jockeyfuel.com also check it out at Walmart, Wawa Vitamin Shop, GNC, Military Commissaries, Aphes, Hanford, Dash Doors, Wake for, and Shoprite. HEB down in Teos, Meyer up in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris. Somebody posted a Harris teeter, like had the full display going on Publix, Dick's sporting goods. Right now we got a little test scenario going. I think we're in 200 stores. So go clear the shelves at Dicks. There's one right around the corner here, by the way, Publix down in Florida, which is outstanding. People been getting into Publix too. Appreciate it. Appreciate you go going into Publix and just buying. I posted the other day before, during, after. This was jiu jitsu specific, but it's not just jujitsu specific. Driving to Jiu jitsu. Go get to jiu jitsu. Have that little nice little energy. Right? During jiu jitsu, hydrate, good to go. Because I'm sweating like a damn pig during Jiu jitsu. But just keep hydrated, get done, get home, mock. There it is. Before, during, and after, you're good to go. Yeah, totally good to go. So check that out. If you don't have jocko fuel at your gym, email jfsalesjocofuel.com we'll get you hooked up. Also, you need clothing. Originusa.com we got hunt gear, we got jeans. We got what, rash guards. We got shorts, we got boots. Boots. Did you get the new boots yet? You didn't get them yet, did you? You're gonna like the new boots. I agree. I seen them freaking gtg. Gtg. I look, do I get a little bit of a hookup?

[Echo Charles]

Kind of a little bit, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But I got a pair of blacked out ones.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Why is that not murdered out, as they say.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, hell yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And well, it's because. Because of echelon front. You know, it's professional organization, so you got to have some professional looking boots. I can't have a big white sole, so I got a blacked out soul from the team.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, you got a blacked out soul.

[Jocko Willink]

And then I. I blacked out the threads myself with Sharpie. Sharpie good to go. No factor. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, yeah. I remember black and stuff out the teams blacking that thing out. So. Yeah, all 100American made, 100American made materials. Check out originusa.com we. We, you know, people are trying to bring manufacturing back to America right now. We brought it back already back. So there you go. Check out originusa.com true.

[Echo Charles]

More clothing merch, if you will. Jocko store. We got discipline equals freedom stuff. Shirts, hats, hoodies. We already knew that. We got socks. We already knew that. But we are. We do have an upcoming collab. The little brand called Huli. Yeah, little nice. Hey, look, a lot of people have been for years too, by the way. Mainly Bob. We already know this. We've been talking about this for a while. But for years, literally years, people have been like, hey, I need a cool, cool shirts. Freaking sweet.

[Jocko Willink]

But I have a job.

[Echo Charles]

I have a job. Exactly right. I got to go to work or whatever. How can I represent at work? See what I'm saying? I'm like, hey, you know, and I looked into it. Then I stopped looking to, you know, back and forth as far as like solving that problem. But now we're going to do a collab with Hooly and now we got some. Some college. Sure. Some polos.

[Bobby Holland]

Pumped to do it, man.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that'll be.

[Jocko Willink]

So do we decide on the design yet?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, just the basic bro. Represent.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Flag X, flag to the core.

[Jocko Willink]

Nice.

[Echo Charles]

All day.

[Bobby Holland]

Pretty soon as well.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that'll be good. It's not out right now, but yes, soon. Be on the lookout for that. Yeah, Very good. I was impressed. I am still am obviously impressed with like the fit because that's like a thing. Let's face it. Like, I don't wear polos that much. So when I wear one, I'm like, cool. It's a polo. Like, whatever. But like, all polos aren't created equally. Like the fit, the material, like the whole thing. Just like any other T shirt.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, thanks, man. We. We put a lot of time and effort, you know, launching and then iterating from there to make sure we can provide the best products possible.

[Jocko Willink]

You got shirt locker?

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Shirt locker. By the way, lead Bob, is a subscription scenario. New design every month.

[Jocko Willink]

The reason I bring this up is because somebody posted a shirt locker shirt and I texted you and said, wait a second, is this one of our shirts? And you said, yes. And I said, I need 4XL. Not 4, not 4, not XXXXL, not 4X. Yeah, yeah. 4 times 4 times 4XL.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Who made that? It's freaking dope, you know, so it's like a. With the. With the death core flag carved into its head. Yeah, dude, it looks Legit. And then you finally got some freaking runic writing done properly, which I've been asking you for a long time.

[Echo Charles]

We made a.

[Jocko Willink]

Made it happen. So that's a dope shirt.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you get me, did you set some aside for, for me?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. So we gotta wait for the end of the month because everybody gotta get theirs. Hey, look, we all love you, but let's face it, you know, our people, they come first people.

[Jocko Willink]

And they'll take care of us.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly right. The team comes first. But yeah, when they got. They all have theirs. And you're gonna get yours 100%.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay? So if you need some of those, you need some T shirts, you can check that out and wait on that one.

[Echo Charles]

That particular one says comfort is a curse.

[Jocko Willink]

And I like that too, because there's sort of like a whole like, you know, know, ritualistic thing.

[Echo Charles]

Kind of cursey.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's kind of a cursy thing. Yeah, that's. That's like a voodoo type scenario. So if you want them T shirts, check that out. Now also, look, sometimes we got jobs, sometimes we're gonna need to wear a polo shirt.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's.

[Jocko Willink]

By the way, that was a standard thing in the SEAL teams. Like it was a certain mode of dressing. If you had to go on a, on a commercial flight in civilian clothes, you'd have to put on a collared shirt. They said.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Now look, you could get a lame polo shirt.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, like not fitting right, just whack.

[Jocko Willink]

Or you get yourself a hooly golf shirt.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, 100%.

[Jocko Willink]

Tell us about Hooly. Hooligolf.com what do you got, Bob?

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, first of all, I just want to thank you guys for, for having me on, you know, real, real honor, privilege to be here and yeah, I wanted to take this opportunity just to thank everyone who supported Hooli last couple years. So we turned 2 in April.

[Jocko Willink]

Yay.

[Bobby Holland]

Happy birthday. It's been a hell of a ride. But I mean, to be honest, we wouldn't be here without our loyal customers and with the help of so many. So I just wanted to take that opportunity. If you're out there and you've played a part in, in getting us here. Thank you so much. And for everyone who has been getting the word out, please continue to do that. You know, we really appreciate, appreciate. We're trying to, you know, we make golfware for action guys. We're trying to reach out to and connect hooly with the action oriented, competitive minded people out there. You know, athletes, former athletes, gym rats Crossfitters, hunters, fighters, surfers, like you name it. If you share this mindset, you like to get after it and you have a penchant for golf. It's not a must have, but we are your brand. So please check us out. Hooligolf.com we got some killer threads. Polos, tees, hats, and we have a whole range of styles. Right. So if you don't want to be showing it off, like what I got here, a little bit, you know, bright pattern here, we got stuff that's a little bit more chill and relaxed.

[Jocko Willink]

So I like how it just called the freaking subdued tiger stripe black on gray. Would you call it a loud color?

[Bobby Holland]

It's, it's a, it's, it's a pattern. So I mean, if, if you're not into wearing patterns, we have some non pattern stuff as well.

[Jocko Willink]

And I got to say, if you don't like, I don't play golf at all. Like, and I am not going to play golf probably for another, let's say 25 years. Maybe when I'm like 95, I'll start be like, all right, let me get out there. But doesn't matter. Hooley look, I still have to wear a polo shirt. I still have to wear a collared shirt. And why would I be wearing a lame polo shirt or a lame collared shirt from somebody that's whack? I would not do that. I would wear something that's dope. So. And you actually have the Hooli is, is it, is a polo shirt and a golf shirt the same thing?

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah. So the whole reason why this whole damn thing started in the first place is if you golf, you have to wear a polo. It's like most, there's some courses that are rules that are a little bit more relaxed. But you know, it was this transformation from, you know, this knuckle dragging dude that I was most of my life and career to you going to play golf. You got to look the part. Might as well have some fun with it. You know, we use high performing materials, we got some kick ass designs. And so yeah, if you're gonna golf, no need to go out there looking like a nerd. Or if you're just, you know, living life or traveling, going to work, you know, we can elevate that look a little bit and have a little bit of Hooli flair.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Bobby Holland]

That adds some, some character and there's, you know, a story and ethos behind this brand. We're not just pumping out.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Well, what I appreciated was because I was like hey, Bob, like, I dig the patterns that you're making, I dig the designs and all that stuff, but I gotta wear a regular ass polo. Like, I can't go present to a company and be in. Like, you got the one that's a.

[Bobby Holland]

Bunch of hand to hand combat.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, hand to hand. A bunch of little skeletons all over it fighting each other or like bunch of little men on it, like doing hand to hand combat with golf clubs. Like, so there's all these things that they're cool, but like, I don't need that. I, well, I need that. But I also need to have a professional shirt, which most people or many people that are here, I don't care. Look, if you're, if you work construction and you got to go in and present to, you know, one of the owners of the buildings, like, you got to look professional. Hooley Hooly has got you covered. If you work at an energy company and you're, you know, a lineman, but you got to go and talk to the boss and present him about some plan, you got to go in there, can't roll in there and like your, your field wear, you got to have something that steps up a little bit. So regardless of what you do, when you got to look, look, we ain't going into freaking Wall Street. We're not bankers, right? We're not wearing a suit and tie. That's not happening. But there are times where you got to elevate above a T shirt and that's what, that's what we got Huli for. So. And another thing where this plays in is let's say you own a company. Let's say you own a company and you got a, you got a crew of, you know, 30 dudes that work for you and you got to have them all look presentable because they got to show up for an event somewhere or they got to go present to clients and, and you don't want to have them all looking different like a soup sandwich. It's like what you mentioned about tasking a bruiser. People notice you look professional. So don't, don't get your, your team like a bunch of junk polo shirts that are trash. Get them some professional looking badass shirts that they go, oh yeah. And there's a little unity and everyone goes, oh yeah, we're not, hey, we're not just representing some freaking lame ass brand. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

You want, you. When you get, hey, when you give someone a shirt, let's say you own a company and you give someone A shirt. You want them to be like, oh, he thought about this. This is for real. This isn't just like a shirt that, you know, whatever. Go down to the. Go on the website and order these shirts and do it. No, bruh.

[Echo Charles]

That's a big deal too, by the way. Like, you know how. Like, you know, know to little team of people, they show up, they got their polos on, but, like, they don't fit right or whatever. You can tell. Okay, maybe they went to one of these thrift stores or, you know, one of these, what do you call, club stores where they just buy in bulk, right?

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah, Real.

[Echo Charles]

The cheapest.

[Bobby Holland]

No hard and soul.

[Echo Charles]

Give away freaking cheap stuff or whatever. And then, yeah, they look more like a bunch of slackers. And look not. Not consciously. You're not like, oh, that polo isn't squared away. So therefore you're a slacker. It's not that. You just feel the vibe a little bit.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, a little bit. You think, oh, that. That shirt was probably designed by AI. But you see someone in a hooly shirt, you're like, that thing was pro. That thing was literally designed by Lead Bob, and the whole team knows that. Lead Bob, Lead Bob, he was attention to detail guy. He was professional. He was on time. He was squared away. Now he's designing your shirt. Don't you want that shirt? Isn't that what we're doing?

[Echo Charles]

That's what we're doing.

[Jocko Willink]

So you definitely got to keep that in mind.

[Bobby Holland]

Just. Just to follow up. You hit on something. I just want to be clear to anyone listening out there is we do have a bulk and wholesaler program. So if you do work for that construction company, we love doing jobs like that. It's. Yeah. So anyways, check us out. You can either go to the website or email [e-mail]. would love to get that going for you guys.

[Jocko Willink]

Hey, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna put myself on record report here, kind of. All right. Don't even know if I should bring this up, but I'm going to. This is out of character. Have you ever heard of a Tiffany's bag? Do you know there's a jewelry store called Tiffany? Yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Tiffany's ankle.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's like a jewelry store.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And apparently it's a really nice one. And if you get, like, your wife something from that store, it doesn't really matter what it is, but if you roll it with that bag, bro, she's happy.

[Echo Charles]

Like, oh, in the house, like, after shopping. Yeah, the Tiffany's bag.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah. Or like, she opens up the. The present or whatever for mother's Day, and she sees a Tiffany bag. Brad, it doesn't really matter. You know what I mean? You roll in that Tiffany bag because it shows, like, hey, I'm in the game. I got you the Tiffany bag. The whole thing. Right, I understand. That's kind of like when you give someone a hooly shirt, right? They're not like, yeah. They're not like, oh, cool. You just went down to freaking whatever s smart and got me a polo shirt. It's like, no, we didn't shop smart. It's different.

[Bobby Holland]

Shop S smart.

[Jocko Willink]

We shop smart. Shop S smart. No, we got you the Hooli shirt.

[Bobby Holland]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so. And they like a nice little bag. The little Hooli bag with the little thing on the top.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Bobby Holland]

Impressive attention, detail. I tried to, in this next career, apply all of that. And you're right. I mean, every single polo that we make, it's. It's originated from a thought. And there's a lot of, you know, blood, sweat, and heart and soul in everything that we make. And we'll continue to get better and make more cool shit.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on Jack. Hooligolf.com Check out Primal Beef.com and Colorado Craft Beef.com. just go get steak. We need steak with that fuel. Look, you can have Molk 100%, bro. By the way, moke is a good, good freaking dessert, dude. Good dessert. We got a new flavor coming out. I don't know if it's been exposed yet. Has it?

[Echo Charles]

I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

You don't know?

[Echo Charles]

Tell me.

[Jocko Willink]

All right, we got a new flavor.

[Echo Charles]

Wait, wait. The powder or the RTD powder. Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, of course there's new. New flavors coming out, but, yeah, you be. Before you eat your dessert, which is a mol. Get some steak. Get some coloradocraft beef.com primalbeef.com also subscribe to the podcast. Also check out jocko underground.com. and we got YouTube channels, but you got a Hooly Golf YouTube channel.

[Bobby Holland]

You know, we haven't done much with that over the top. Hooly was our YouTube channel. We'll work on that here probably this next year.

[Jocko Willink]

It's not been a priority at this time.

[Bobby Holland]

Not a priority right now. Got. You got to prioritize and execute.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, well, we got YouTube channels, right? We got the Jocko podcast official. We got the Jocko podcast clips. Echo Charles. He's like, I'll make it the clip. He's put, like, nine clips on it. Good Job, dude, everyone is really appreciative.

[Echo Charles]

There's more than nine.

[Jocko Willink]

Thank you.

[Echo Charles]

But you know, we out there.

[Jocko Willink]

Jocko Fuel has a, has a YouTube channel. Origin USA has a YouTube channel. Check all those out. Also written a bunch of books. Check out the books. I've written kids books. Read a bunch of kids books. I get letters from kids that did their first pull up.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I get letters from kids that started Jiu Jitsu. I get letters from kids that learn their times tables. I get letters from kids that squared their life away with this book. So get your kids, get your neighbors kids. Get your, your nieces and nephews. Give them the warrior kid books. Check those out. Also, Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. These are the principles that we learned in combat, on the battlefield, and these are applicable in any leadership endeavor. So if you want to come to one of our events, the next event is in San Antonio. There's still a couple tickets left. It's San Antobe, San Antonio, Texas, April 29 through May 1. Come and check it out. We have a bunch of other events and we can come into your business and we can help you with your leadership situation. And by the way, if you have problems, they're leadership problems. We also have an online leadership training academy, which is not just for like, oh, you're in a leadership position. You're the CEO of a company. You're a, you're at the chief of a fire department. It's not just for them, it's for you that's sitting there with, you're at the bottom rung. You've been in your job for a year and a half. You, no one reports to you. You can learn from the Extreme Ownership Academy. And it's going to help you in every aspect. It's going to help you build relationships. It's going to help you interact with other people. It's going to help you advance, get promoted, do better, make more money. It's going to help you with those things through leadership. And that can be [e-mail] and finally, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a incredible organization that has helped so many of our friends. Also check out America's. Also check out heroes and horses.org which is Micah Fink's organization, helping SEALs get and, and not just SEALs helping all veterans or a bunch of veterans find themselves up in the mountains find their soul again. And then Jimmy May has got his organization, beyondthebrotherhood.org so that's America's mighty warriors.org heroes and horses.org and beyond, beyond the brotherhood.org if you want to connect with us for Bob and hooligolf, check out hooligolf.com and then on Instagram at hooligolf. And then Bob on Instagram is lead Bob Holland. Check out episode 416 if you want to learn more about that. And if you want to connect with me, check out jocko.com and then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink. Echo is at Echo. Charles, Just watch out for the algorithm. And once again, thanks, Bob. Coming back. Thank you for having it. Good to see you. Thanks for your services, a frogman and your continued pursuits of building a business here and helping our economy grow with Hooley Golf. Thanks to all our military out there, veterans who pass down these lessons to help us be better new guys, help us be more effective in combat and help us be better people. And then thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all of the first responders, thank you for protecting our way of life here at home and for everyone else out there. Look, we went through some good mantras today that are gonna help you in every aspect of your life. So keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open, don't be late, don't forget any gear, look for work. Become an asset. And you become an asset by always training and maintaining your body and your mind. And in order to do that, just keep getting after it. And until next time, this is lead Bob Holland and Echo and Jocko out.