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496: Toxic Leadership. This Is How You Spot It. This Is How You Know. - Jocko Podcast | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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496: Toxic Leadership. This Is How You Spot It. This Is How You Know.

Jocko Podcast

Wed Jun 25 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast Episode 496 – "Toxic Leadership. This Is How You Spot It. This Is How You Know."

Host: Jocko Willink
Co-Host: Echo Charles
Release Date: June 25, 2025
Description: Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink, and Director Echo Charles delve into the nuances of toxic leadership, exploring its characteristics, types, causes, and the impact of positive leadership on mitigating its effects across various domains such as business, military, and everyday life.

1. Introduction to Toxic Leadership

[00:00] Jocko Willink opens the episode by addressing a recurring question: "What should I do if I have a toxic leader?" He emphasizes that the term "toxic leadership" is broad and often misunderstood, prompting the discussion to delve deeper into its specific characteristics and manifestations.

2. Defining Toxic Leadership

Jocko references a scholarly paper by Colonel Denise F. Williams from the Army War College titled "Toxic Leadership in the US Army." The paper aims to:

Define toxic leadership.
Consolidate expert views on the personal characteristics of toxic leaders.
Identify 18 distinct types of toxic leaders.

Key Definition:
Toxic leaders engage in destructive behaviors and exhibit dysfunctional personal characteristics that inflict serious and lasting harm on their followers and the organization.

Notable Quote:
[02:20] Jocko Willink: "The intent to harm others or to enhance the self at the expense of others distinguishes seriously toxic leaders from the careless or unintentional toxic leaders."

3. Personal Characteristics of Toxic Leaders

The discussion outlines a spectrum of personal traits associated with toxic leadership, ranked from least to most severe:

Incompetence
Lack of necessary skills or understanding to lead effectively.
Malfunctioning
Leaders focused on their own insecurities, neglecting mission and followers.
Maladjusted
Insecure leaders who feel they don't belong or haven't earned their position.
Sense of Inadequacy
Deep-seated self-doubt leading to destructive behavior.
Malcontent
Bitter leaders who harbor resentment over past failures.
Irresponsibility
Refusal to account for actions, often blaming others.
Amorality
Inability to discern right from wrong, acting outside moral codes.
Cowardice
Lack of resolve in making tough decisions.
Insatiable Ambition
Unquenchable desire for power and success at any cost.
Egotism
Exaggerated self-worth that hinders self-renewal and team collaboration.
Arrogance
Conviction of superiority, leading to blame-shifting.
Selfish Values
Values excessively centered on self-interest over organizational needs.
Avarice and Greed
Obsession with wealth accumulation, often causing ethical compromises.
Lack of Integrity
Inconsistency between words and actions, fostering distrust.
Deception
Attempts to hide character flaws and self-serving motives.
Malevolence and Maliciousness
Hatred for others, seeking their misfortunes for personal satisfaction.
Malfeasance
Blurring the lines between unethical and illegal behavior.
Haughty and Callous Behavior
Disregard for others' needs, fostering a toxic and fearful environment.

Notable Quote:
[10:05] Jocko Willink: "So much of this boils down to that insecurity. And look, there's food insecurity. That's the thing."

4. Types of Toxic Leaders

Colonel Williams identifies 18 types of toxic leaders, each with unique detrimental behaviors:

Absentee Leader
Detached, uninvolved in day-to-day operations.
Incompetent Leader
Lacks necessary skills, resulting in poor task execution.
Codependent Leader
Overly reliant on others, leading to emotional repression and organizational neglect.
Passive-Aggressive Leader
Resists demands through procrastination, inefficiency, and unpredictable outbursts.
Busybody Leader
Energetic but unfocused, manipulative, and disrupts organizational clarity.
Paranoid Leader
Convinced others aim to undermine, leading to excessive control and hostility.
Rigid Leader
Inflexible, unyielding, and resistant to new ideas.
Controlling Leader
Micromanages every aspect, stifling follower initiative.
Compulsive Leader
Seeks perfection, exhibits emotional outbursts due to internal turmoil.
Intemperate Leader
Lacks self-control, engages in morally questionable overindulgences.
Enforcer Leader
Loyal to a toxic superior, amplifies the primary leader's detrimental effects.
Narcissistic Leader
Seeks admiration, exploits others due to deep-seated insecurities.
Callous Leader
Unkind, demands unrealistic standards, enjoys fear-based control.
Street Fighter Leader
Charming yet brutal, builds gangs within organizations to manipulate outcomes.
Corrupt Leader
Driven by power and greed, engages in deceit and unethical behavior.
Insular Leader
Isolates their inner circle, disregards broader organizational welfare.
Bully Leader
Consumes others with fear, vindictive, and physically abusive.
Evil Leader
Commits atrocities, particularly prevalent in political arenas, requiring collective intervention to counteract.

Notable Quote:
[16:32] Jocko Willink: "Responsibility is incredibly important. Obviously, this is what extreme ownership is all about."

5. Causes of Toxic Leadership in the US Army

Several factors contribute to the prevalence of toxic leadership within the military:

Human Nature and Hierarchical Needs
Maslow's hierarchy suggests that unmet basic needs can hinder leadership development, causing individuals to stagnate at lower levels of the pyramid.
Inherent Paradoxes in Military Leadership
Certain traits desirable in military leaders, such as decisiveness and control, can become toxic when taken to extremes.
Inadequate Mentoring and Emulation
Junior officers often emulate existing leaders. If toxic leaders are present, their behaviors are perpetuated through repetition.
Short-Term Tolerance Due to Mission Focus
Leaders may tolerate toxic behavior because, despite its negative impact on individuals, it may contribute to short-term mission success.

Notable Quote:
[85:14] Jocko Willink: "The simple answer is that toxic leadership reflects an aspect of human nature."

6. Why Toxic Leadership is Tolerated in the US Army

Jocko identifies several reasons for the Army's tolerance of toxic leadership:

Short-Term Effectiveness
Toxic leaders often achieve immediate mission objectives, making it tempting for superiors to overlook their detrimental behaviors.
Oblivious or Complicit Superiors
Higher-ranking officers may be unaware of the toxicity or prioritize mission success over the well-being of subordinates.
Promotion Dynamics
Toxic leaders who deliver results are often promoted, reinforcing the cycle of toxicity as they ascend the ranks.

Notable Quote:
[99:50] Jocko Willink: "Their superiors are either oblivious to toxic behavior or more likely they're so satisfied with the results in terms of mission accomplishment that they choose to overlook the human cost of getting the job done."

7. Impact of Positive Leadership

Positive leadership is presented as a viable solution to mitigate toxic leadership:

Identification and Early Intervention
Recognizing toxic traits early in a leader’s career can prevent the escalation of toxic behaviors.
Good Leadership Practices
Mentoring, training, and fostering an environment of integrity and accountability can counteract toxic tendencies.
Systemic Changes in Reward Structures
Ensuring that toxic behaviors are not rewarded by the system can reduce their prevalence.

Notable Quote:
[100:35] Jocko Willink: "If toxic leadership is not rewarded by the system superiors in the army, then perhaps it will cease to be prevalent."

8. Conclusion and Recommendations

Toxic leadership is a pervasive issue not only in the military but across various organizations. While complete elimination may be unattainable, strategic measures can significantly reduce its impact:

Enhanced Identification:
Implementing robust mechanisms to identify toxic leaders early in their careers.
Educational Initiatives:
Training superiors and peers to recognize and address toxic behaviors effectively.
Promoting Positive Leadership:
Encouraging leadership styles grounded in integrity, humility, and team-oriented values to overshadow toxic tendencies.

Final Advice from Jocko:
“If you can recognize the short game and the long game being played and the big picture and small picture, they're like dimensional, you know, if you can understand that, like, deeply, I think you'll be all right.”
[94:56] Echo Charles: "Try and detach. See your weak points and try and get better. That's what we're doing."

Key Takeaways:

Toxic Leadership Defined: Leadership that causes significant and lasting harm to followers and organizations through destructive behaviors.
Spectrum of Toxic Traits: From incompetence to outright malevolence, toxic leaders exhibit a range of negative characteristics.
Diverse Types of Toxic Leaders: Recognizing that toxic leadership manifests in various forms, each with unique detrimental impacts.
Root Causes in the Military: Human nature, hierarchical challenges, and inadequate mentoring contribute to the persistence of toxic leaders in the military.
Tolerance Due to Short-Term Gains: Superiors may overlook toxic behaviors if immediate mission objectives are met, perpetuating the cycle.
Mitigation through Positive Leadership: Early identification, education, and fostering integrity can help reduce toxic leadership's prevalence and impact.

Notable Closing Quote:
[103:05] Echo Charles: "If you can recognize the short game and the long game being played and the big picture and small picture, they're like dimensional, you know, if you can understand that, like, deeply, I think you'll be all right."

Note: This summary excludes promotional content, advertisements, and non-content discussions present towards the end of the transcript, focusing solely on the substantive exploration of toxic leadership.

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Transcript

Jocko Willink (0:00)

This is Jocko, podcast number 496 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

Echo Charles (0:05)

Good evening.

Jocko Willink (0:05)

So I get asked a lot of questions for years, get asked question questions about toxic leadership, right? Questions like, what do you do if, you know, what should I do if I have a toxic leader? Or how do you handle a company when there's toxic leadership? That kind of thing. But the problem with the term toxic leadership and toxicity and specifically toxic leadership is that's such a broad term. And you know, when someone tells me they have a toxic leader could mean a whole bunch of different things, even though we kind of all know what it means, right? It means bad leadership. That's what everyone's implying. Well, I found a paper written by an army colonel that was at the, at the Army War College. And it just a paper about toxic leaders and the characteristics of toxic leaders and then the types of toxic leaders that they became become. And I think it's really, when I read it, it's one of those things how, you know when you get a certain type of car and then you look, you're driving around and you keep seeing that type of car everywhere. Yeah, fully, it's like that. But as you start reading the descriptions of the characteristics and the types of toxic leaders, they're like, oh yeah, oh yeah. And most important, you can check your damn self to make sure that some of these traits that are out there aren't in you. So let's jump into this paper right here just to first give off the credit here. The author of this is Colonel Denise F. Williams. The title is Toxic Leadership in the US Army Kicks off here. The extent to which toxic leadership exists in the US army is a question that demands thorough examination. While most publications on military leadership focus on the positive aspects of good leadership, this project examined the current literature on destructive leadership styles. This paper sought a definition of toxic leadership, consolidated expert views on the personal characteristics of toxic leaders, and compiled 18 types of toxic leaders. The project serves as a review of toxic leadership in the U.S. army. It derives insights into toxic leadership in the army, why it exists, why it is tolerated, and what impact positive leadership may have on this phenomenon. So that's what it is. That's what it's a paper about. But clearly, and you're going to see this real quick, this ain't just about the Army. This is about any type of, and not just the military, but any type of organization that exists in the world. And, and that's another crazy thing is people think that because someone was in the military, they were a good leader. And because they were an officer, they were a good leader. Because they were a commander, they were a good leader. Or a colonel, they were a good leader. Or a general, they were a good leader. Or an admiral, they were good. That doesn't mean that at all. Doesn't mean that at all. There's absolutely horrific toxic leadership at every level of the chain of command. And of course, there's a bunch of great human beings as well, but we're talking about the toxic ones right now. So I don't want to make it sound. That kind of opening makes it sound toxic leaderships everywhere. It's. It's common, but it's not the preponderance. Right. So starts off, army leaders must set high standards, lead by example, do what is legally and morally right, and influence other people to do the same. They must establish and sustain a climate that ensures people are treated with dignity and respect and create an environment in which people are challenged and motivated to be all they can be. Cool. There you go. U.S. army Field Manual 2022 Tack 100. Telling about what. What a. What solid leadership is. Solid leadership is the cornerstone of a successful military. The US army absolutely depends on it. What happens, however, when that solid leadership turns out to be solidly bad? What happens when leadership is so bad that it hangs over an entire organization like a toxic cloud that suffocates everything and everyone that it comes in contact with? Does this happen in the Army? If so, why does it happen? Why does the. Does the army tolerate it? Why in the world would the army tolerate toxic leadership? Can positive leadership play a role in eradicating it or mitigating against its detrimental effects? So there you go. There's the setup. Toxic leaders can be characterized as leaders who take part in destructive behaviors and show signs of dysfunctional personal characteristics. To count as toxic, these behaviors and qualities of character must inflict some reasonably serious and enduring harm on their followers and their organization. So there's like a definition right there that we have to pay attention to. If you're a toxic leader, but you have no impact, it doesn't really matter. You gotta have some kind of negative enduring impact on the organization. The intent to harm others or to enhance the self at the expense of others distinguishes seriously toxic leaders from the careless or unintentional toxic leaders. I've known quite a few unintentional toxic leaders in my day as well. You know, people that were just. And this paper goes into it, thus, there are varying degrees of toxicity in this damaging disorder. At one end of the spectrum, dysfunctional leaders may simply be unskilled, unproductive, and completely unaware of the fact that they are lacking in the necessary talent to lead. At the other extreme, toxic leaders will find their success and glory in the destruction of others. Be it psychological or even physical, they will thrive on the damage they can inflict on others. In any case, this toxic leadership plummets productivity and applies breaks to organizational growth, causing progress to screech to a halt. So there's your toxic leadership. Now we get into this whole thing starts off with the personal characteristics and man, I kind of got. What's the term here? I kind of got engaged when I started reading this part. Experts said I have identified a number of characteristics attributable to toxic. The following compilation of traits provides a starting point for better understanding of toxic leadership. Although all of these characteristics are significant, they are listed from the least significant to the most severe. It's pretty cool. In most cases of toxic leadership, the leader will present not just one, but a combination of traits. Intuitively, the more of these traits the leader displays, the more toxic the leader is considered. Many authors explain these unfavorable traits in terms of psychologist Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Maslow categorized human needs into a five level pyramid and suggested that people move upward as needs at a particular level are met. And we were talking, when we were talking about this on the, on the Underground podcast, I think we were talking about Maslow. The levels start with basic physiological needs, forming the base, and then ascend through safety, love and belonging to esteem and finally self actualization. So this starts with like food, water, air, shelter, safety and security. And then it goes up. Those are the, those are the physiological needs. And then it goes up. Safety, love and belonging, esteem, and then finally self accu. Actualization. Until needs and desires are met at any given level, the individual cannot progress to the next level. While trustworthy leaders usually operate at a level four or five, destructive leaders are still concerned with meeting their safety needs at a level 2, or possibly their love and belonging needs at a level 3. Their behavior indicates that they have not begun to address their esteem needs at level four. This results in many of the following negative personal characteristics. So if you're not feeling safe and secure in your scenario, you got problems. This is why. What is it? Money is the root of all evil. Yeah, well, you could take that a step lower and just go like food. You know what I mean? Because if you don't have food, yeah, we, you know, you and I are fighting. Yeah, Right. If there's only one freaking hamburger.

Jocko Willink (11:41)

Just like if the food is scarce, they're going to be on edge. When they think their value is not there, they're going to be looking, looking to lash out, acting up. Now, unfortunately, it doesn't. This doesn't really start with one of these things that's rooted in insecurity. The first, the first characteristic person, personal characteristics, incompetence. Incompetence results from the lack of the required skill, capability, aptitude that are required to complete the function. It may include a failure to understand the mission or task at hand, a continued failure to comprehend the problems and issues associated with the task, and ultimately a failure to determine the best way to solve problems and overcome issues. Look, that's just an incompetent person, right? They, they could be, they could be secure, they could be a normal person, but they just don't get it man. They just have a hard time with it. It could be a technical task, it could be a a cognitive task, it could be anything, but they're just not good at it. And maybe they can learn some of it over time, but they're just not there yet. And that's the lowest level according to this personal characters. That's like the lowest level of toxic leadership is you're just incompetent. Next one. Malfunctioning leaders who malfunction are focused on their own insecurities and are therefore unable to focus on the mission, organization or followers. Most of their time, energy and effort are spent on themselves, leaving little attention or interest for any anything else. Not only does the leader malfunction, so does the organization, so this person's focused on themselves. So obvious to everyone. By the way, that's mal functioning. Now we get maladjusted. Leaders who are viewed as maladjusted are insecure about their own accomplishments, often with good reason. Having avoided the personal risk, discipline and hard work needed to succeed in earlier circumstances, they are maladjusted to their surroundings, their position, their organization, and certainly to their followers. So they know that they don't really belong there. They didn't work hard enough, they didn't take the risk that was necessary, they didn't put the discipline into their world. And so they know that and they feel insecure about that and they're going to cause problems and that rolls right into the next one. Sense of inadequacy. Similarly, all toxic leaders have a deep seated sense of inadequacy. The sense and that's impress. This says all toxic leaders have a deep seated sense of inadequacy. The sense of inadequacy may be based on either real or perceived chinks in the armor, but nonetheless the self doubt is ever present. In its most extreme form, this self doubt can bring about a leader who only feels competent when destroying others. Oh that's so freaking fitting. So again now when these when these inadequacies and this insecurity starts to grow, the only way you feel good is by crushing someone else. Malcontent. The malcontent leader is an extremely bitter leader, an unhappy person, a disgruntled soul who is angry about past failures and determined to make the world pay. This leader is not satisfied with anything self others circumstances and displays this dissatisfaction through angry outbursts, rants and tirades. So one thing that I it says that they are angry about past failures. And one thing I I I feel like it's not Just angry about past failures. I think these people can sometimes be upset that they haven't gotten the recognition that they feel that they deserve. So they. They did something, and they think that they deserve the. The recognition and the glory for that thing, and they don't get it. And now they get determined to make the world pay for it. That's sort of the Cain and Abel story, right? Cain did not get the recognition from God, and so he killed his brother Abel, who got the recognition. That's what it is. Next one. Irresponsible leaders who possess the characteristic of irresponsibility refuse to answer for their actions. They have reckless disregard for the costs of their actions to others as well as to themselves. They see no need to do what is right because they see no penalty for doing what is wrong. I actually put the irresponsible one kind of, like, lower down in my mind. Someone that's incompetent. Those two are like, I would go incompetent and then irresponsible. Like, you ever work with someone and they just do dumb.

Jocko Willink (22:46)

Next is cowardice. Then this is a big jump, big jump to cowardice. Cowardice in a leader is about much more than a simple lack of physical courage as on the battlefield. It is about a lack of resolve, determination and steadfastness in times when tough decisions must be made. It is about being unable or unwilling to make tough decisions. This type of leader does not recognize this weak point and is therefore not able to make necessary change. Yeah, this is just someone that's just backing down continually and not standing up and doing the right thing. And then that. Again, this is a little bit of a strange progression here. It goes. Insatiable ambition. It goes from cowardice to insatiable ambition. While ardent ambition may qualify as positive personal characteristic for a good leader, insatiable ambition does not. A leader who has an unquenchable desire for power, prestige, money, success and glory will obviously do whatever it takes to satisfy that desire at any cost. It may mean compromise of operation, organization, people, or all of these. This leader will put ambition above all else. So we just jumped to me, you're, you're just Gwent from like, hey, the dude's a coward. But you know what? Like, hey, you won't make a call, but we can step in and make a call. Or hey, he's doing something that doesn't make sense so we can correct him. Or hey, he's ignorant about this so we can. He doesn't know how to do this. He's incompetent. We can. Like, those are all things that are sort of in a category that we can Deal with insatiable ambition. Now all of a sudden, we. We just jumped. Our issue level just jumped up quite a bit. This person is doing whatever it takes, whatever it takes to satisfy what they're. What they want, which is power and glory. And then it goes right into egotism. As with ambition, a healthy ego by itself may not be a particularly negative attribute. However, egotism in a leader is a dysfunctional trait that can destroy organizations. The leader's exaggerated sense of self worth, constant focus on self, and inability to distinguish between the real self and the imagined self clouds self perception and thus limits the capacity for self renewal. So, you know, clearly this is a huge one. I. I think that I would actually flip these. I think there's a person that can have an ego, but they also recognize, you know, like, okay, well, I can talk to them. I can. I can help them see that in order to help them move towards their egotistical goals, they still need the team to win. But the person with the insatiable ambition, they seem like they're. That seems like it's stronger than egotism. And again, I'm being, you know, semantic about these words, but they are very, very closely related and clearly things that destroy teams and organizations that I always.

Jocko Willink (31:04)

Yeah, that's it, man. That's. It could go. Could be one way or the other. And that rolls Right into arrogance again. To me, arrogance. I always looked at arrogance as a precursor to egotism and really a precursor to insatiable ambition. And again, maybe I don't understand the words 100 or maybe we just have different understandings. But to me, Eric, like a, like a, a free, you know, you can meet a 20 year old Jiu jitsu kid that's kind of arrogant. You know, he's going to a tournament, he's, he's bobbing his head back and forth. Seems a little bit arrogant. You know, I don't, I don't, I don't. I think that seems below like egotism. Yeah, but here we go. To take, to take this idea of self worth a step further. Leaders who are arrogant and overly certain of their own superiority to all others are not only consumed by their self worth, but also by the fact that they are convinced that they can do all things a cut above others because of their self perceived perfection. They cannot fathom making mistakes. This arrogance prevents them from acknowledging their mistakes and instead leads to blaming others for all that goes wrong. Nothing will ever, nothing will ever be their fault. But they will not hesitate to find and lay blame wherever it is otherwise convenient. It again, like how we, how we break these out. We can do it a bunch of different ways, but this is, you know, this is the opposite of extreme ownership. This is the ego taking over and it's not good. And see again, now this next one is called selfish values, which to me is like the, the even precursor to the precursor, right? Oh, this person's a little bit like I would, I would call you selfish before I'd call you arrogant before I'd call you egotistical. Right? That's probably the order that I would go. And then I would eventually get to this guy Echo Charles got an insatiable freaking ambition like he's not stopped. That's kind of the mode out. Because selfish values is like a lot of people have selfish values. We all have selfish values. Yeah, like that little kid that you took my toy. The toy I'm not playing with. Dude, I want that thing. Selfish values, good leaders are those who genuinely care about the mission, organization and their subordinates and put those entities before self. Toxic leaders by contrast, do not develop values that place organizational needs high. The concept of selfish values encompasses more than merely lack of self selflessness. It encompasses that notion that the values someone holds are focused excessively on self. For the most part, values are directed toward the good of others or the good of all or sorry that for the most part Values are usually directed toward the good of others or the good of all. Toxic leaders maintain values that are purely self centered and self promoting. Next one up, avarice and greed. One of the self centered values results in yet another dysfunctional, dysfunctional characteristic of avarice and greed. Those in this category place an inordinately high value on the accumulation of wealth, wealth and financial gain. Avarice and greed will take a toll on the organization and the people in it. Check again. You know, when you start talking about how people react, you know the, the saying money is the root of all evil. Like when you don't have any money, you're going to people. People do things that they shouldn't be doing. Yeah. When people are obsessed with money, they do things that they shouldn't be doing. We were having a family talk the other night about the movie the Wolf of Wall Street. Have you seen this movie?

Jocko Willink (43:57)

One, one thing that again, I feel like this is a more common thing. But also the reason I'm kind of surprised that this type of thing is so high on the list is that even in the definition says they have hatred for others. That's a feeling they wish for misfortune. That's like a feeling they, they secretly cheer. So like this is, this is a person that's not really taking action as a leader to, to. To undermine or set echo up for, you know, plant some freaking drugs in your locker at work so you get busted at school, you get in trouble. Like that's. This doesn't talk about the actions. But I guess that's where we get into the next one which is malicious. Maliciousness takes malevolence a step further. These leader leaders actually inflict the harm on others. They feel such malice towards. Towards often whether there is personal gain in it for them or not. Rancor, malice and enmity and spite are the trademark emotions of these leaders. And they enjoy the insult of revenge on others. Yeah, so I guess I spoke too soon. And the next one is malfeasance. Finally, haughty, arrogant and insecure toxic leaders sometimes cross the throat thin border between unethical or unprofessional behavior and illegal behavior. This can result in malfeasance. Their perceived self importance has them convinced that rules and laws do not apply to them. It's exactly what you were just talking about. This can result in behaviors that are internally and externally devastating to an organization, especially in the public sector where public trust and confidence are greatly valued. The worst case scenario occurs when a number of these negative traits are combined in in a leader. It is now evident why so many authors use Maslow's hierarchy of needs model. A number of these dysfunctional personal characteristics illustrate the leader, the toxic leader's inability to get past low level survival needs, level three and in many cases level two. Then it goes on here and therefore they have issues of insecurity, yearning, sense of loss, fear, obsession, obsession and compulsion. In less extreme cases, the individual may be getting safety needs satisfied but misses out on the love and belonging needs. This type of leader has feeling of self consciousness, feelings of being unwanted, feelings of worthlessness, emptiness, loneliness, isolation and incompleteness. So there you go. Those are the characteristics of toxic leaders. Now the next thing is the types of toxic leaders. What do these People actually do. At first glance, toxic leadership connotes an evil bullying person. But the reality is that toxic leadership can be present in much milder types or in a multitude of types between these two extremes. Recall that the penultimate of toxic leadership is in the harm done to the organization and the followers. The nature and degree of that harm results helps to characterize the toxic leader type. So the first one is the absentee leader. The absentee leader is a detach, is detached from the organization and the people. He is in charge with leading. He is only involved in the decision making, future planning and program executing. Because of his physical presence in the organization, he seems to be mindless because his mind is only on himself and obtaining approval of others for himself. So that's the first one, just someone that's not really in the game. Next one is incompetent leader. He may be incompetent due to lack of skill, but may also have careless, careless, dense, distracted, sloppy or slothful. He may be unable to effectively act and react in times of situations of uncertainty and stress. And he may be unable to successfully communicate his ideas, educate his subordinates, or delegate any authority to his competent supporters. There you go. That's just an incompetent leader. We see them. Key last one there is unable to delegate any authority to his competent supporters. Because even if you're not quite a competent leader, but you can delegate, then you can have other people pick up the slack. You're going to be good to go. I saw that all the time in SEAL platoons. Maybe the leader wasn't the best. Maybe the chief was the best, maybe the platoon commander was the best, but he would just delegate and like let the let the boys go. The codependent leader. The codependent relationship is based on the codependent following a harsh set of rules in order to conceal the behavior of the dependent. This results in the emotional repression that creates great stress for the codependent person which he then takes into his leadership behavior. He will act and react to the followers in his organization in the very same manner as he does to his or did to his dependent accomplice. He will take personal responsibility for their substandard performance and make no attempt to correct it for fear of hurting their feelings. He will take take on more work and responsibility than is rightfully his and then become very angry with the amount of work that has been pushed on him. He is a peacemaker who would rather cover up problems than face them in an effort to balance the group's system. The result on the followers and the organization is distrust, uncertainty and neglect for addressing bonafiti. Bonafide problems, issues and future and the future of the organization. That's like people that fuel off a drama, you know what I mean? And they're just like. That's the. They're just kind of in the game with the drama. I always was. I was always kind of astounded by relationships, you know, especially when, you know, when. When I was younger, and I'm not saying like a kid, but like, you know, in my mid-20s. And you'd see people that were girlfriend, boyfriend, you know, they'd be just like fighting and screaming. But then they'd be there the next night fighting and screaming. They'd be the next night fighting like, dude, what is happening? This does not look like fun to me. But it's fun to them.

Jocko Willink (55:14)

Next one. This is one everyone likes to talk about. The passive aggressive leader. The passive aggressive leader has a tendency to resist demands to adequately perform adequately perform tasks. He has an intense fear of failure and is therefore reluctant to deliver his best performance because it may not be up to the standard and would then result in failure. If he does too well, it may mean that he will be promoted and then be accepted, Expected to perform at an even higher level, which could in turn result in failure. His unwillingness to perform well equates. His unwillingness to perform well equates to procrastination, dawdling, stubbornness, forgetfulness, and intentional inefficiency. The passive aggressive leader is impetuous. He will have a sudden outburst of anger or frustration and then immediately be regretful. He will complain, complete his task, but then be resentful for having it forced upon him. Followers Live on pins and needles, constantly wandering, constantly wondering when the next outburst will be and for what reason. The organizational response is resistance and aversion on the part of the followers who wish to prevent an outburst under such conditions. Positive change to the organizations near impossible. One thing that is interesting to me about that is it's, it seems like it, it's on it's subconscious, you know what I mean? Like the procrastination, dawling, stun, stubbornness, forgetfulness and intentional inefficiency. Like those things are. It says intentional inefficiency. I think oftentimes it's unintentional. It's people that are, they're, they're passive aggressive for the very reasons that are printed here, the very reasons that they're saying. Which is, which is a tendency to resist demands because they're fearing of failure. They don't want to deliver the best because they don't want to. They don't, they want to still have something. They're back, you know, like I could have done better but. Or they don't want to get promoted because then, you know, they'll be. Have a lot of responsibility. And I think those are subconscious and therefore these behaviors are subconscious. And they don't even know that they're executing these behavior behaviors. In my mind, or at least I've seen a decent amount of passive aggressive. Some of them are conscious of it, sure, some of them are, but some of them are just, they have that in the back of their head and they therefore behave this way. They don't even, they couldn't identify, you know, if you said, hey dude, why do you keep procrastinating? They wouldn't be like, if you, if you put a lie detector test on them and said, why are you procrastinating? They wouldn't say, you know what? I'm afraid of actually executing the task because it's, then it might, I might be judged and I, I'm afraid of failure. No, if you said why you're procrastinating, be like, well, you know, I, I would be doing it, but you know, there's this other thing and blah, blah, blah. They, in their, in their heart, they don't even realize what they're doing. Yeah, that's kind of my opinion on the, on that next one. Next one is a good one. The busy body leader. The busy body body leader is energetic, restless, constantly in motion and full of unfocused vigor. He may give full focus to one project or topic for a period, then jump to another for no apparent reason, leaving those around him in a confused daze. He yearns for the spotlight and must be the center of attention. He works long, hard hours, but is unlikely to remain focused on any one given task. He is relentlessly scanning, roving, pressing, talking, traveling, planning, plotting, giving speeches, cajoling, joking, flattering, and working, always working, or at least making a grand performance of working. The busy body leader is manipulative and firmly establishes himself as the center of information flow in order to further manipulate those around him. He will fail to make decisions that resolve conflicts among subordinates, assuring that the flow of complaints and information about conflicts, and therefore attention received, will be continuous. His manipulation, unfocused energy, and persistent movement leave the organization bewildered and unclear about where the focus is or should be. And again, in my mind, I don't think this is conscious. I think a lot of leaders that behave this way are doing it as a defense mechanism. They're insecure, they're not quite sure how to win, and so they do all this stuff. Next is the paranoid leader. The paranoid leader may be brilliant, but of mediocre, of mediocre intelligence, or somewhere in between, he is convinced others are trying to chip away at him, his performance, his leadership, and ultimately his achievements. Regardless of his brilliance or lack thereof. He's completely insecure about himself and his skills and is pathologically jealous of other gifted people. He will not tolerate any variety of criticism because his view, because he views it as a personal attack and attempt to undermine him and his authority. He will become hostile toward anyone who pursues, perceives, who he perceives is trying to undermine him. Despite how innocent or genuine a remark or action might be, the paranoid leader assumes there are hidden intentions behind it. This fear and paranoia drive him to seek total control of everything that takes place in the organization. Excessive staff meetings and reporting are often the result of this need to keep close tabs on those around him. If someone else attempts to exert control or appears to be attempting control in any part of the organization organizational activity, he will deal harshly with this individual. In time, followers will learn to be passive and keep all comments, opinions and observations to themselves. This passivity, along with jealousy and hostility, foster an organization full of fear, anxiety and trepidation. The only initiative exercised such an organization is that which the paranoid leader can force through by himself. Scary. The rigid leader Man, I wish I would have taken notes when I was in the military. Each individual leader and what I saw the leader. And you know, that's another thing that's interesting is you see various levels of each One of these things being there or not being there and complimenting or. Or emphasizing or de. Emphasizing various characteristics. Because if you've got someone that's very controlling, but they're also wanting to progress, like they can count, they can. They can help each other. Sometimes some of these characteristics and then sometimes it's just a total disaster. The rigid leader is stiff and unyielding and is unable or unwilling to accept new I or to adapt new ideas, new information or changing times. As one might expect, rigidness may very well have its place in leadership. Leadership as determination or steadfastness of purpose. But in the current age of constant change, flexibility has the overwhelming edge over rigidity. The rigid leader is convinced that he is right and that he is the only one who is right. He is therefore loathe to entertain any other opinions. He will surround himself only with followers who thinks as he does, so that he does not have to be confronted by conflicting or dissenting opinions. Boom. The controlling leader. Very rigid. Very similar to the rigid leader. The controlling leader takes rigidness one step further. This is a perfectionist who craves certainty and surety. The only way controllers feel they can achieve the certainty and surety that they need is to make the decisions themselves. While the rigid leader will surround himself with like thinkers and delegate certain authorities to those who agree with him. The Controller. The controller leader cannot and does not delegate. He will be intimately involved in every decision, big or small. The controller leader is process oriented. And while he does not have a grasp of vision of the and the future of the organization, he's extraordinarily preoccupied with the processes related to the conduct of daily operations. He is disdainful of people who are not excited or involved in the implementation of efficiency incurring processes that make everything neatly identified and hierarchical.

Jocko Willink (63:04)

Because of the controller leaders rigidity and perfectionism, him his followers suffer personal angst and fear because they have no input to the process or the outcomes. The skilled intelligent followers are stifled while others merely go through the daily motions. All are micromanaged again leading to absence of positive change. Sounds like a freaking lovely work environment. The Compulsive Leader. The compulsive leader possesses traits of the rigid leader and the controlling leader. With a twist. He is similarly rigid, but has but but has the need to completely control all aspects of his life and pursues perfection to an extreme. But he also has emotional glitches of which he's probably unaware. He is angry. Angry, resentful and rebellious on the inside and believes it is wrong to express his true feelings. His need to firmly control his own feelings results in his efforts to control everything else. However, because of the inner turmoil, it is common for such persons repressed anger to be expressed in sudden and violent outbursts. The outbursts and violent behavior contribute to an atmosphere of fear and anxiety among followers. The Intemperate Leader the intemperate leader lacks self control. He is unable to appear, abstain from overindulgences and incapable of cautiousness when he overindulges. The excesses may be simple or complex, but they are most always morally questionable. If the intemperance in private is private in nature, there may be limited organizational consequences. But these overindulgences rarely stay private. When they become public, they also become distractions. When the behavior is more egregious and enduring, as in substance abuse, it is destructive. Thus, a lack of self control raises questions of morality. If the intemperate leader cannot uphold a personal commitment to himself, his followers realize that his commitment to them and the organization is of little value. The followers become distrustful, disillusioned and cynical. And the organization ceases to be productive. That's what's interesting about that one is it shows how when you're in a leadership position, you are being judged by your behavior. Not just your performance at the job, but like what else are you doing in your life? And if you don't have good self control in life, you're gonna lose credibility and respect from your team. So keep that in mind. The enforcer leader is subservient and often second in command. He follows his leader and implements the leader's desires. If his leader is not a toxic leader, he will be a detailed, oriented paper pusher, loyal to the boss, the organization of the system. However, if he does work for a toxic leader, he will become quite toxic himself. He wants the approval of his boss and cares only about that approval over that of any of the followers in the organization. The enforcer leader may never achieve the principal position in the organization, but he will be instrumental to the success of others. And the others in question are often are more often than not toxic leaders. A responsible non toxic superior will probably recognize the enforcer leader and remove him from the organization. The enforcer leader's impact on an organization is doubly damaging because his behavior has enhanced and multiplied that of the primary of the primary toxic leader. Yeah, ran into some of those dudes along the way, I can tell you that much. The narcissistic leader for the narcissistic leader, the world revolves on the access of Self and is driven to succeed by a need for admiration and acclaim. Although self observed, absorbed, he lacks self esteem. Although deeply ambitious, he feels inferior. Although he desires to be great, he's unable to take pleasure in his accomplishments because he wants more. His lack of self esteem, feelings of inferiority and inability to value his own successes result in mistreatment, manipulation and exploitation of others. All for the sake of his own self worth. The narcissistic leader is so confident that he is the best and only one who can do things that he does. He is unable to recognize that others are capable of performing to his standard. He leaves his followers feeling inferior and doubtful of themselves. He leaves the organization longing for recognition. Check the narcissistic leader followed by the callous leader. The callous leaders uncaring and unkind and dismissive of others needs, wants and wishes. He is arrogant, patronizing, unpleasant, abrasive and often hot tempered. He demands. His demands are not only unrealistic, but delivered in near abusive manner. Perhaps most distasteful aspect of the callous leader is the one at his core, he enjoys his reputation of being harsh and abusive. That's a freaking interesting right? That person that's like, yeah, you're damn right that's how I roll.

Jocko Willink (68:16)

I'm hardcore. He takes pride and pleasure knowing that his followers fear and cower before him. His effect on his followers is a degraded self image and diminishes morale. Next, the street Fighter leader. Perhaps alluring, the street fighter leader is egotistical yet charming and he maintains a competitive vision of winning at all costs. He is good to those who are loyal to him and can help him with his wins. But he can be brutal to those who disagree with him or offer a dissenting opinion. He tends to build gangs of supporters and then uses the gangs to fight the battles he feels he must win. Accordingly, if there are dissenters in the organization, they will be ostracized from the gain gang and duly punished. He will define himself by how much he wins and by how big his empire grows. At the range root of his egotism and competitive nature is his unyielding need to be the one in charge. This unwavering need to be dominant produces power struggles when challenged. The Street Fighter leader has a strong sense of inadequacy which drives him to prove himself to all those who he sees as superior to him. Although the Street Fighter leader might be productive leader who achieves short term goals, it is at the cost of a cooperation, cooperative and open organization where varying ideas can be exchanged. It is his unwavering belief that he is right and that support for him is right for the organization that allows this toxic leader to attract and manipulate organizational gang members. Ultimately this can destroy the moral, the morale of the organization. Yeah, those, that's a, that's a more common. And again, the SEAL teams is filled with great freaking leaders, but there's also plenty of them that fit into this category. This is a pretty common like military type leader, especially in the SEAL teams, where you have that, you have that opportunity, kind of build little gangs and be like, oh yeah, this is what we're doing. And it's also. I've talked about this before, but the, the fact that you're only going to be in charge for two years, you know, you're in charge for two years in the military. Most military in the SEAL teams for sure, you're in charge for like two years. And so for two years you can get some freaking great results. And then you leave and the guys are miserable, but they still work hard because they're freaking team guys. And they still get the job done, but they're miserable and, but then you're gone and you got the job done. So guess what? You're getting promoted, boys. Something else that caught me about that. Yeah, it's like this person you have to, you, you have to have, especially at the lower levels, you got to be able to make happen. Right? It's like a super positive quality to make happen. But then once you're, once your organization grows to a point where you can no longer make happen by yourself and you have to use decentralized command, that's a transition that not everyone can make because it feels good. I made this happen. I did this, I did that, I did something else and everyone knows that I did it. That's a big ego hit when all of a sudden it's like, well, the team did it. And I didn't really get my hands on that and I didn't actually do that thing. I'm still overall in charge. But you know, Echo actually did the thing and it can be hard for people to make that transition. That's why, you know, you see like a company, like a, like a company, like a startup will grow under that CEO, that the founder, and he's making things happen, he's getting things done. And then as it grows, at a certain point he's still trying to operate the same way. When you can operate now, you know, you could do that when you had nine people in the organization. You could just freaking, hey, everyone, come in tonight. We got to get this done.

Jocko Willink (77:01)

The way that if you can frame it correctly in your brain. The corrupt leader. Power and greed motivate the corrupt leader. He will lie, cheat, or steal to fill his need for money and power. The line usually feeds the need for power, while the cheating, stealing feeds the need for money. It's clear to the followers, which is interesting. Interest. It's interesting that this even talks about like money because you got to get pretty high up, I guess, I guess there's military things that can happen that involve money, but there's not like a lot of them, you know, there's. I guess you could, you could be like giving, buying a weapon system and getting a kickback from like the company, you know, you. I, I guess that. But that's. There's not a lot of money that changes hands in the military. You know what I mean? There's just not, it's just, you know, it's just. There's just not a lot of money that changes hands. But, or, or even, you know, like gain, material gain, you know, there's not a lot of material gain to be had. Like maybe you get issued like an extra set of cammies, you know what I mean? Like, you know, you could, you know, pull a fast one to make that happen. But, but in the civilian sector, there's, there's definitely more of that because that's what drives the civilian sector. So the line usually feeds the, the need for power, while the cheating stealing feeds the need for money. Is clear to the followers that the corrupt leader will put his own needs and desires ahead of theirs is a matter of self absorption similar to that of the narcissistic leader and reminiscent of ignoring the needs of others. Characterist by the calic Characterized by the callous leader, the corrupt leader steps further into the immoral, unethical and often illegal realm. Eventually, the corrupt leader is found in a labyrinth of deceit. Whether it is for power or money, the corrupt leader cannot be trusted. And when subordinates and followers know this, the organization suffers. Boom. The insular leader. While those in the inner circle of the insular leader may not suffer directly from his actions, there is a cost to the others. To others. The insular leader separates him, himself and his organization from everyone else and then utterly disregards the health and welfare of those not in his organization. Careful that one insular leadership may be observed primarily in the political arena, where national boundaries are apparent and leaders may have a tendency to protect their own constituents above all else. Check. And then there's the bully leader. The bully leader is pugnacious, bitter, intensely angry at the world, and vehemently jealous of others who outperform him. The bully leader has needs to put others down, to invalidate others and to devastate others in addition to taking pleasure in his abusive behavior akin to that of the callous leader. For the bully leader, hurting others is the main goal. He will invalidate others in order to validate himself. He will boast about his contributions, whether valid or not. He appears to be confident in himself and his abilities, but in reality is terribly fearful that others will find out how incompetent he is. The bully leader is prone to ranting and outbursts, particularly when such actions may degrade and humiliate someone. In his mind, this makes him appear to be powerful and in charge. He will make threats and instill fear in others in order to establish an environment that gives him an advantage. If people fear him, he will have more control. However, the bully leader is secretly a coward and will back down when seriously challenged. Yet he will then linger in anticipation of the right time to exact his revenge on the challenger. The bully leader is mean, pure and simple, and the influence he has on the organization and his followers is nothing less than devastating. His goal is to hurt others, and he does exactly that. The positive side of the bully leader is that he will probably not last. His bitterness, anger and vindictiveness make it difficult for even close associates to continue their support. Such leaders will have a lasting effect on the they brutalize even after departure, check the bully leader yelling and screaming and cutting other people down. And then we got the last one, the evil leader. And this is like a serious escalation, right when the bullies leader becomes when the bully leader's brutality becomes physical to the point of committing atrocities, he becomes the evil leader. For the most part, the evil leader is found in the political arena in form of the evil leader of a nation. While the study of toxic leadership certainly invites the question of the role of followers in creating and harboring the toxic leader. This is especially salient in the case of the evil leader. This leader and at least some followers commit atrocities. They use pain as an instrument of power. They use the evil leader must have evil followers to remain in a position of authority. There will also be bystanders who take on the Role of followers. The only way, the only way such leaders can be stopped or at least slowed is by followers who are willing to take them on. It will have to be the bystanders who gain strength in numbers, a collective power, and are not part of the evil followers who must intervene. So we just escalated to freaking Hitler and Stalin and Mao. So there you go. That's the evil leader. Fast forward a little bit here. It seems that when most people experience toxic leadership in the military, they assume that their situation is an anomaly. They assume that their toxic leaders, just one person, the thousands who slipped through the cracks and made it to a leadership position without qualifying skill set to be a leader. They assume that the army generally knows and grows and promotes good, conscientious, trustworthy leaders and that if bad, if a bad one slithers through, it's without question outside of the norm. They assume it is their bad fortune across paths with this irregular abnormality. They are wrong. Although it would not be correct to assume that toxic leadership is running rampant in the ranks, it is unquestionably more prevalent than just a few bad seeds. And that is true. You know, it's not, it's not the overwhelming. But you'll run into them for sure. You'll for sure. And not just in the army. You'll run into them in the navy, in the Marine Corps, in the Air Force, in the Coast Guard, in the border patrol, in the police department, in the fire department, in the corporation that you work at, in the freaking volunteer group that you're unpart of, the charity that you, you know what I'm saying? It's like everywhere and it's a different varying degrees of impact. Sometimes it's like that low, you know, that low level toxicity doesn't kill you. It makes you kind of sick. Makes you feel bad. May, you know, we were joking the other day. I had like mold in my house. You ever heard that?

Jocko Willink (85:58)

So even though it doesn't matter, these things are like human traits that reveal themselves sometimes. Back to the book. The simple answer is that toxic leadership reflects an aspect of human nature, which is what I just said. As discussed earlier, humans fall victim to a series of hierarchical needs. Recall that Maslow points out the. The needs at the lowest level must be met before advancing to the next level. Unfortunately, some humans struggle with getting these needs met. And that's. That I think is such a huge piece of it is when you get a really good leader. And you know, this is something in the book the Dichotomy of Leadership that I wrote. It's like you have nothing to prove, but you have everything to prove. A really good leader doesn't feel the need to prove it anything. You know, they just. When I think of General McFarland, Colonel McFarland, when I work for General McFarland in Ram, you could see that he didn't have anything that he was trying to prove. He Wasn't trying to prove that he was in charge. He wasn't trying to prove that he was the highest ranking guy. He wasn't trying to prove that it was his brigade. Like, you didn't even catch any of those vibes from him, his open mind and like, hey, yeah, I. It was more like, I guess I am the guy that's going to be making a decision, but what do you think? Type attitude. And when you see really good leaders, they just don't have anything to prove. And when you see bad leaders, they have more to prove. And the more they have to prove, generally speaking, the worst leader that they're going to be. And some of that comes with hopefully maturity. And some of it comes from where you kind of view yourself. Like, for me, I think I was always calibrated to where I was and I always felt like I was doing a good job at what I was doing. And I felt like I fit there. Right. I was never like, I should be in charge of these mother. You know, I wasn't. When I got to a SEAL team, I was like, dude, I made it. I was kind of stoked that I made it. And then, you know, I was a new guy and I was like, I was like a good new guy. Was I the best new guy? No, I wasn't the best new guy. Was. I was the worst new guy. No, but I was like, I was good. I was a good new guy and I saw myself as a good new guy. I didn't see myself as a best new guy. I didn't see myself as the worst. I saw myself as I was. And then I was a one cruise wonder. And when I was a one cruise wonder, I was, I viewed myself as a good guy that has one deployment under my belt. And now I'm a one cruise wonder, which is kind of a funny thing, but. Because we think we know everything, but obviously we don't know, you know, I kind of, I kind of saw myself in a realistic way. And I didn't have some visions. Right. I didn't have some, some. My ego was somewhat aligned with the reality of the situation.

Jocko Willink (88:43)

And that continued, you know, when I, when I was in training cell. I was in training cell. You're kind of in a position of authority. SEAL Team 1, you know, three deployments under my belt, Whatever, peacetime deployments to like on a ship, driving around, drinking, but, you know, that's what we're doing. So I had three of those deployments. Now I was in training cell, I was in training, so I Wasn't like, you're damn right I'm in training Cell, you better listen to me. But I was like, oh yeah, I'm in training. So yeah, it's kind of where you end up after you do a few deployments. And I know some stuff about this. I can help you. Right. By the way. And there were some times where I was harsh for sure. But you know what it reminds me of is in Jiu Jitsu. In Jiu Jitsu, when you, when someone is better at you than Jiu Jitsu. Well, when, when I explain to people like, oh, you're, when you start Jiu Jitsu, you're going to get beat by everyone. It doesn't make someone a better human being than you when they beat you at Jiu Jitsu, what it means is that they've trained more than you have. This is like, this is like belts, you know, probably up to black belt. Honestly. Now look, you get someone that's a, that's a hyper awesome athlete and they're training five hours a day, like, okay, they're going to beat you because partially because they're training five hours a day and partially because they're a badass athlete. And at some point, you know, some people that will beat you, it's just because they're a better athlete than you are. You've been training longer than them and they beat you because they're a better athlete. That's one that, that does happen in Jiu Jitsu. It does happen. But my attitude was like, yeah, you know, this person is beating me. Like when I was a purple belt, get beat by a brown belt, dude, I didn't think, dude, there's so much better than me as a human. My literal thought was, they've trained more than I have. And so when I was in training cell at Seal Team 1, I wasn't like, you're damn right I know this shit. You don't. It was like, no, I've actually just been here for seven years right now. I've done three back to back deployments. I was a radio man. I know how to work the radio pretty good.

Jocko Willink (96:05)

Continuing on here, this is about why toxic leadership exists. Some struggle, some human struggle with getting the basic needs met. They get delayed at a certain level of development and are never able to move on. If at this, if this is at level two, the level of safety, or level three, love and belonging, the result may be low or no self esteem. Nearly every type of toxic leadership previously defined has self esteem concerns as its root. Rooted in low self esteem, some of these people make it into the army and into leadership positions. Another reason may be the inherent paradoxical nature of military leadership. A review of some toxic leadership types reflect some desired qualities of military leadership. Yes, this is the dichotomy of leadership, right? Unlike some milder traits and types such as incompetence, malfunctioning, inadequacy or absentee, many more of these severe traits and types, such as busy, rigid in control and forcing, confident street fighter, may be characteristics the army values in a leader. It is the extent to which these characteristics are applied that represents a problem. Again, this is the balance of the dichotomy of leadership because do you want someone that's busy and hardworking as leader? Of course you do. Do you want someone that's in control? Of course you do. Do you want someone that enforces things? Yeah, of course you do. You want someone that's competent? Yes, of course you do. Go overboard with any of those things, you got a problem. In moderation, these features may seem may be seen as good and acceptable in extreme, they are toxic for the most part. These toxic military leaders tend to do little in moderation and do most everything in the extreme. Inadequate development is another cause of toxic leadership. Mentoring is a critical aspect of army leadership. Officers are taught at an early age to find leaders to emulate. Junior officers are advised to observe and emulate older senior successful officers to determine what they have done to be successful. If there were no existing toxic leaders, there would be none to emulate. However, since there are toxic leaders, it is inevitable that toxic leadership will be replicated. It will continue to propagate because it is seen as some as a pathway to success. That is not. No doubt about that. You used to be able to tell like you'd get some guy that was a platoon chief and he'd be like a freaking tyrant. You go, hey dude, who's your first platoon chief? And they'd tell you be like, oh, Jack, or get some officer that's an idiot or an egomaniac and you're like, hey, who's your first platoon commander? Who's your first skipper? And they tell you not cool it. All transferred right on down the pipe.

Jocko Willink (98:29)

Why is toxic leadership tolerated in the U.S. army? Let us now address the difficult question why toxic leadership is tolerated if not promoted in the US Army. Perhaps the most obvious reason, albeit, albeit disturbing, is that toxic leaders seem to get the job done at least in short term. Yes, that is true, unfortunately. And I think the main reason why toxic leadership exists in the army is because that two year thing, you can freaking put up with a idiot for like you don't even, it takes you a few months to realize that they're how bad they are because you're like, oh, they'll, we'll teach them, we'll mentor them, I'll build a relationship with them, I'll start figuring out and you think it's going to be okay. And then by the time you're done with your workup, you're getting ready to go on deployment. This dude's a freaking idiot. But if we fire him right now, the other platoon is going to get, you know, the good missions. So we're just going to keep our mouth shut, we're keep doing what we're doing and you do, you go out, he acts like an idiot, but it doesn't matter. You got the boys, you boys get the mission done. Now this guy's getting promoted. So I think it's that short two year thing. Their superiors are either oblivious to toxic behavior or more likely they're so satisfied with the results in terms of mission accomplishment that they choose to overlook the human cost of getting the job done. What effect does positive leadership have? If toxic leadership can be identified, can it be cured? If superiors and senior leaders take appropriate action, perhaps they can mitigate the negative effects of toxic leadership. The appropriate action on the part of the superiors and is good leadership itself. Leading, mentoring, training and educating in a responsible, honest, non toxic manner may be the best way to combat this phenomenon of toxic leadership in the U.S. army. Perhaps if toxic leadership is not rewarded by the system superiors in the army, then perhaps it will cease to be prevalent. The hard thing about that is a lot of those, when someone has a big ego, it's really hard to coach them, it's really hard to mentor them, it's really hard to teach them because they already think they know everything. And that is a problem when, when, when, when there's a delta between a difference between how you and I see each other. And I see myself as. Even if you're my boss, but I see myself as kind of technically, you know, you're my boss on paper. But the reality is I'm kind of superior to you.

Jocko Willink (109:16)

Awesome. Also check out primalbeef.com and colorado craft beef.com. we got awesome steaks made by awesome people, awesome companies. So you need steak, I need steak. We all need steak. ColoradoCraftBeef.com PrimalBeef.com Check them out. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also Jocko Underground. We're getting ready to record a couple of those right now. We answer all of your questions, so check out jocko underground.com YouTube. We got a bunch of books. I've written a bunch of books. Dave Burke has written a book. It's called need to Lead. You can pre order that right now. Let the manufacturer of the book know. Let the Publisher know that we need to print more of these. We do that by pre ordering the book need to Leave, need to Lead by Dave Burke. Also, I've written a bunch of books. Everything from novels to kids books to books about discipline to books about leadership. You can check those out anywhere you get books. And then of course, I have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. Whatever problems you have inside your organization, the root cause of those problems is leadership. It may not be toxic leadership. There may be a low level of toxicity. Maybe you don't even barely even notice. It just like feels like a little sniffle. Your nose feels a little jammed up. Maybe you got something more significant. Maybe it's dragging you down. The problems that you have inside your organization are leadership problems. At Echelon Front, we fix those problems through leadership. So go to echelonfront.com we can, we can embed in your organization and help you with your leadership. Also we do events. If you want to come to one of our events, check it out. Echelonfront.com we got the muster, we got the council, we got battlefield, we got ftx, we got the women's assembly. We got all kinds of things that you can come and check out. Echelon front.com we also have an online training program. It's at the Extreme ownership academy. Extreme ownership.com this is where we take these lessons that we've learned to make sure that you're not a freaking toxic leader. We can. You little symptoms you got, you got a little something. We'll apply some radiation to that spot and get rid of the toxicity. Learn the skills of leadership. Extreme ownership.com and then if you want to help service members active and ret retired, you want to help their families, want to help Gold star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. Amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out Micah Fink's badass organization heroes and horses.org and then finally Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood.org and if you want to connect with us, you can check out jocko.com and then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink Echoes at Aqua Charles. Just be careful because that algorithm on there, which is programmed, which is artificial intelligence which will get inside your brain and wreck your life. Be careful. Don't let it happen. Set a little timer. 7 minutes. 7 minutes. 7 minutes you can waste on that. Then get back to your real life. Thanks to all our military personnel. Out there sometimes. I know that you have to put up with some toxic leaders in order to protect us in our way of life. Thank you for what you do every day to overcome those challenges and keep us safe. And also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. I know sometimes you all deal with toxic leaders as well. Well, thank you for dealing with them in order to protect us here at home and everyone else out there. As is our habit, we blame other people. And you may have spent the last hour and a half listening and identifying all the toxic qualities that everybody else around you has. And while there may be some toxic leaders around you, you can't really control them. You can control yourself. So be a good person, a humble person with integrity and honor and be competent in your job and be responsible and keep your ego in check and put the team ahead of yourself and you'll be in a good spot as a good leader. That's all I've got for tonight. Until next time, the Zeko and Jocko out.