498: Regardless of the Distractions, You Know What To Do. Do It.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast Episode 498 – "Regardless of the Distractions, You Know What To Do. Do It."

Hosts:

• Jocko Willink – Retired Navy SEAL
• Echo Charles – Director

Release Date: July 9, 2025

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1. Introduction to Leadership Credo and Combat Leadership

The episode begins with Jocko Willink and Echo Charles delving into the Marine Corps Institute's "Leadership Credo", connecting its principles to combat leadership and broader applications in business and daily life.

• Jocko (00:07): Introduces the Leadership Credo document, emphasizing its relevance to understanding stress, friction, and human will in leadership roles.

2. Understanding 'Credo' and Its Importance

Jocko clarifies the definition of "credo," highlighting it as a guiding statement of beliefs and actions.

• Jocko (01:19): "A credo is a statement of beliefs or aims that guides someone's actions."

Echo engages in a light-hearted exchange about the term, illustrating real-life communication dynamics.

3. Leadership in Combat vs. Everyday Scenarios

Jocko underscores that leadership isn't merely about holding a rank or title but earning respect and inspiring action through understanding factors like fear, courage, stress, and mission focus.

• Jocko (04:00): "Anyone can be put in charge of a group of Marines and lead them to the chow hall. However, it's not as simple to motivate a Marine unit to continue fighting during difficult circumstances against a determined enemy."

Echo relates these principles to personal experiences in Jiu-Jitsu, discussing how overcoming challenges in martial arts parallels combat leadership.

• Echo (05:02): "Sometimes in Jiu Jitsu, no one can simply be better than you. It's not just a test of your skill, but your will."

4. The Role of Will in Leadership and Combat

The hosts explore the concept of willpower as a cornerstone of effective leadership, especially in high-stress environments like combat.

• Jocko (12:51): "Controlling your emotions is a learned process. Little kids have not learned to control their emotions, which is why they have temper tantrums."

Echo discusses personal anecdotes about managing emotions and using them constructively, emphasizing self-control as essential for leadership.

5. Managing Emotions and Stress

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on recognizing, controlling, and leveraging emotions to maintain effectiveness under pressure.

• Echo (15:55): "If you can control your emotions, they can help you. But when you can't, they become detrimental."

Jocko reinforces that mastering emotional control is crucial not just in combat but in all leadership scenarios.

• Jocko (16:48): "Fear is a powerful force in battle. It is common to all men, rarely discussed and understood. Instead of denying fear, you need to think about it, plan for it, and learn how to lead yourself and your Marines in spite and act in spite of it."

6. Friction in War and Its Broader Implications

The discussion transitions to friction—the unpredictable challenges that complicate even the simplest tasks in combat, mirroring obstacles in civilian life.

• Jocko (56:45): "Friction is the force that makes the apparently easy so difficult. It's not a difficult concept to understand because you can see it daily during both peace and war."

Echo relates friction to everyday distractions, such as traditions or personal habits, illustrating how self-imposed obstacles often hinder success.

• Echo (68:42): "Many of the friction in your life is self-generated. It's important to keep in mind that friction from any source has a way of sneaking up on you."

7. Overcoming Distractions to Maintain Mission Focus

Jocko emphasizes the necessity of maintaining focus on the mission despite the myriad distractions that can arise, both external and internal.

• Jocko (70:13): "You can't let yourself get distracted. But if you're paying attention to the things that distract you, that's a huge help."

Echo adds that recognizing and addressing distractions is pivotal in achieving goals, whether in combat or personal endeavors.

• Echo (70:46): "Distractions like traditions or personal comforts can take your eyes off the goal. You gotta tend to that."

8. Strength of Will: The Leader's Role

The hosts conclude by reiterating that a leader's strength of will is paramount in guiding others through adversity. Leadership isn't just about directing others but also about imposing one's own discipline and willpower to achieve objectives.

• Jocko (70:58): "A leader's will, in an effort to keep your unit fighting and focused on its mission, is the single most important factor."

Echo echoes this sentiment, highlighting that self-discipline is the foundation upon which effective leadership is built.

• Echo (83:14): "Discipline equals freedom. We're representing on this path that we're all on."

9. Key Takeaways

• Leadership Credo: Understanding and embodying the principles outlined in the Leadership Credo is essential for effective leadership in high-stress environments.

• Willpower: Mastery of one's own will and emotions is critical for leaders to inspire and maintain the morale of their teams.

• Friction and Distractions: Recognizing and managing both external and self-imposed obstacles ensures that leaders and their teams stay mission-focused.

• Self-Discipline: Leaders must impose discipline on themselves daily to set an example and drive their teams toward success.

• Emotional Control: Being aware of and controlling emotions allows leaders to utilize them constructively rather than being hindered by them.

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Notable Quotes:

1. Jocko Willink (00:07): "Leadership is the art of getting things done through people."

2. Echo Charles (05:02): "Sometimes in Jiu Jitsu, no one can simply be better than you. It's not just a test of your skill, but your will."

3. Jocko Willink (12:51): "Controlling your emotions is a learned process... Self-control is essential for leadership."

4. Jocko Willink (16:48): "Fear is a powerful force in battle. Instead of denying fear, you need to think about it, plan for it, and learn how to lead yourself and your Marines in spite and act in spite of it."

5. Jocko Willink (56:45): "Friction is the force that makes the apparently easy so difficult... It's part of combat and everyday life."

6. Echo Charles (68:42): "Many of the friction in your life is self-generated. It's important to keep in mind that friction from any source has a way of sneaking up on you."

7. Jocko Willink (70:13): "You can't let yourself get distracted. But if you're paying attention to the things that distract you, that's a huge help."

8. Jocko Willink (70:58): "A leader's will is the single most important factor in keeping your unit fighting and focused on its mission."

9. Echo Charles (83:14): "Discipline equals freedom. We're representing on this path that we're all on."

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Conclusion:

Episode 498 of the Jocko Podcast provides an in-depth exploration of leadership principles derived from combat experiences, emphasizing the critical roles of willpower, emotional control, and the ability to manage friction and distractions. Jocko Willink and Echo Charles offer valuable insights applicable not only in military contexts but also in business, personal development, and everyday challenges. The discussion reinforces that true leadership is about self-discipline, understanding human behavior under stress, and maintaining unwavering focus on the mission amidst inevitable obstacles.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 498, with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

[Echo Charles]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

So Last podcast number 497, we covered an article by retired United States Marine Corps Colonel Joseph H. Alexander, and it was about combat leadership at Iwo Jima. But that the place I got that document from was from a Marine Corps Institute document which is called Leadership Credo. And just in going through that document, look, there's some pertinent information related, related to the article that we read about stress and friction and human will and of course, about leadership and the lessons that it teaches. I was thinking, you know, we can use these lessons. Of course. So let's get into this document right here. Marine Corps Institute Staff Non Commissioned Officers Career Distance Education Program. Leadership credo. Leadership Credo. A credo. Do you know the definition of credo?

[Echo Charles]

I know what creed is, but yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

It'S a very similar thing. CREDO is a statement or beliefs or aims which guides someone's actions. So you're. You're right. Krita. Have you noticed there's been a little bit of news going around where people will ask a kind of a gotcha question and then the person doesn't know it and they just look bad?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You've seen some of this.

[Echo Charles]

I'm familiar with this trend for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

So I feel like I just did that to you a little bit.

[Echo Charles]

What?

[Jocko Willink]

Do you know what credo means? And you're like, kind of. Not really. I don't.

[Echo Charles]

I. I understand what you mean, but I don't think that applied to me because I don't.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Chuck, under no circumstances am I required to know what CREDO means in my everyday life.

[Jocko Willink]

I think for you, kind of, honestly, you don't really have any requirements to know anything.

[Echo Charles]

Very low requirements. Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

So check. Leadership Credo starts off with a quote. No man is a leader until his appointment is ratified in the. The minds and hearts of his men. The Infantry General, 1948, which is really important to remember because if you think just because you got a rank put on your shoulder or you got a title, you think now you're in charge. Doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything if the people that work for you don't respect you. It also says, leadership is the art of getting things done through people. That's General Al Gray. Gray isms, 29th commander, Marine Corps. Carrying on leadership is the defining quality of Marine senior NCOs and officers. Good leadership inspires and motivates Marines to accomplish the mission Leadership. Emphasis on will. Leadership inspires others to take action. To provide inspiration, the leader must affect the Marine positively. To do this, the leader must first understand the factors that determine a Marine's will to fight. These factors include fear, courage, stress, and a shared sense of the mission. So, look, of course we're talking about Marines right now, but if you talk about your company or. Or your business or your team, the things that. The factors that play into a person's will to work hard to take the step to execute. These factors, like a Marine's will to fight, include fear, courage, stress, and a shared sense of mission. Although these qualities are intangible, they often determine the outcome of combat. Okay, fair enough. But please take a note. Take a moment to think about the fact that these things apply to whoever you are. You don't have to be a Marine in combat. Motivating Marines. The best leaders can motivate Marines to perform actions they wouldn't ordinarily perform. Anyone can be put in charge of a group of Marines and lead them to the chow hall. Why is that? Echo Charles put you on the spot again.

[Echo Charles]

Well, because we're going to the chow hall.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah. So anyone can lead the Marines to chow hall. However, it's not as simple to motivate a Marine unit to continue fighting during difficult circumstances against a determined enemy. Such a challenge requires effective leadership. So keep that in mind. If you're on the. If you're on Iwo Jima and you've just lost 40 of your guys on D Day alone might be a little bit more challenging. Fast forward a little bit. Marine Corps legacy. The Marine Corps has a long legacy of success in battle. The cornerstone of success has been leadership. Leadership by Marines who, in combat, refused to bend to the will of the enemy. This legacy of leadership, of getting things done through people, is now your mission. Combat is just getting. Just breaking the will of someone else. Do you feel that in Jiu Jitsu?

[Echo Charles]

Sometimes.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Sometimes you just get caught. Right.

[Echo Charles]

Well.

[Jocko Willink]

Which is different than when your will gets broken. Right.

[Echo Charles]

So when you were saying that. That I was thinking about Jiu Jitsu, where it's like, okay, but have I.

[Jocko Willink]

Ever broken your will in Jiu Jitsu? Yeah, you know, because I was gonna.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, a few times.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So. But you gotta figure, though, I feel like Jiu Jitsu has this very unique. Well, sometimes I might feel like it's a unique characteristic where no. Someone can just simply be better than you. That's why in the beginning of Jiu Jitsu, when you first start or let's say you've never done it before. Someone will get you and be like, no, no, let's go again. And then they'll get you again. You're just kind of more concerned. Oh, frick. Yeah. Will all day. Exactly right. Freaking sick Jeff Glover on one of these guys, he'll be like, what? I don't get it. You know, so put it this way. Someone who maybe I outweigh or you outweigh by a lot but is way better than you, they're not gonna. It's not like it's not a really.

[Jocko Willink]

A test of your will.

[Echo Charles]

It doesn't just feel like maybe in some different sort of way.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But yeah. Yeah, but as opposed to you get used to Sloan or one of these dudes who's gonna kind of break your own. It's a very different experience.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

So yeah. Yes and no.

[Jocko Willink]

Keep mission focus. You must think rationally, make good decisions and inspire your Marines to renew their efforts. You must keep yourself and your you Marine's mission focused. Furthermore, you must do this despite a clever, cunning, active enemy who is constantly devising and implementing ways to kill you and the Marines. You lead this idea and you, you haven't been, you haven't gone off on a tangent on this in a quite some times. I'm probably breaking my own, my own rules. But sir used to be real into distractions.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Maybe it's because you have less distractions now than you used to. Maybe it's because you learned how to overcome them or maybe you've submitted to them. I'm not 100 sure.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Wait, what do you mean? I, I.

[Jocko Willink]

You used to talk about distractions.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And how distractions were like a huge part of the friction that people face in life.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And this is, this is what is they're talking about here. And they go into it more later. So I'm just warming up. You get your mind warmed up because you used to distract us with all kinds of stuff. Leadership challenges. You will face tremendous challeng challenges as a combat leader. Some of your Marines will freeze, cower or panic under fire. Horrible wounds and deaths of friends and fellow Marines could become overwhelming. And we read some of this on that last podcast. Guys that are just completely locking up or breaking down competent battalion commanders. Eight, 10, 12 days into battle, leading their men and they break down and they can't perform. They're crying. They got to be evacuated. The entire unit may suffer unimaginable hardships from heat, cold, thirst, hunger, or fatigue. The prompts of civilized life may Be stripped away. And you and your Marines will be fiercely bent on simply surviving. So there are some of the challenges. And this has a little quote in here that we might be familiar with. For us, combat was a series of changing events characterized by confusion, awesome violence, gripping fear, physical stress and fatigue, fierce hatred of the enemy and overwhelming grief over the loss of friends. Think about that combination right there. Awesome violence, gripping fear, physical stress and fatigue, fierce hatred and overwhelming grief. That's what these guys are experiencing. We endured vile personal filth in a repulsive environment saturated with the stench of death and decayed in combat. I saw little, knew little and un, understood less about anything that occurred outside K35. We had our hands full fighting and trying to survive moment to moment. And that of course is EB Sledge, Sledgehammer with the old breed. But what a characterization of emotions and thoughts. Confusion, awesome violence, gripping for your physical stress and fatigue, fierce hatred and overwhelming grief all at once. And that's what you're feeling for day after day after day after day. Now he talks about the two challenges. The book talks about the two challenges face that we face. To achieve success in the face of these challenges, you must study and understand them. You will study two challenges and explore the problems that may cause the leader. One, the will to fight and two, the friction of war. So the will to fight Combat is the supreme test of wills. It is a clash with an enemy who is determined to kill you. The enemy's will keeps him fighting. If you can defeat the enemy's will, you can bend your enemy to your will. In combat. This is your central aim. And I think what's really important is to identify that. Like when you identify it's it's will against will and you have to break their will. And now you understand the the pieces on the board and the way you move these pieces. If it's going to help break their will, make the move. If it doesn't help you break their will, it's not worth it. Here's a firsthand account. Prior to the First World War, all armies fought fought in comparatively close order. The psychological reaction of the individual soldier was not so def decisive since the fighting was done not by the individual, but by the mass. And the mass was held together by drill and discipline. Moreover, the psychological impressions of battle were simpler. In modern war, the impressions are much more powerful. Usually we fight against an enemy we cannot see. We no longer fight in great masses, but in small groups, often as individuals. Therefore, the psychological reaction of the individual has become increasingly important. As commanders, we Must know the probable reaction of the individual and the means by which we can influence this reaction. And that's Captain Adolph von Schell from Battle Leadership, which we covered on probably the. One of the first 20 podcasts we did here. And then here's another one. Because war is a clash between opposing wills, human wills, the human dimension is central in war. It is the human dimension which infuses war with its intangible moral factors. War is shaped by human nature and is subject to the complexities, inconsistencies, and peculiarities which human which. Which characterize human behavior. Since war is an act of violence based on irreconcilable disagreement, it will invariably inflame and be shaped by human emotions. So what I was thinking about here is, is that an advantage or a disadvantage to you, right? You get put into a situation, are the emotions that you're. That, are, that, are, that are taking place both yours and your opponents. Are they advantageous to you or are they disadvantageous to you? And if you're not, keep. Because sometimes, do we not want to, like, capture the emotions of the team and, and accelerate those motions? Yeah, of course, but sometimes. Are the emotions getting out of control? Yes, of course. Now we gotta, especially like a negative emotions, we gotta, we gotta try and subdue those as much as we can, suppress them a little bit. But positive emotions, we want to elevate them. And then what about your own emotions? Because those can also be tricky. They can help you out or they can hurt you.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I, as you know, I've spent some time alone these past few days. So you start thinking emotions is another one of those ones that I thought about for a while as I'm doing circles in my yard by myself. But it's, and this, this is going to seem real obvious, but, you know, when you kind of think about it, it's like you kind of think about the depths and how deep it goes or whatever and all the different situations it applies to, but it's. Yeah, you can have, you can have elevated, elevated, elevated emotions and it'll still help you. The only thing that makes emotions, as far as I can tell, the only thing that makes emotions a negative is when you can't control them. So you can take a negative emotion no matter how much or how little, and if you have it and you use it for what you're trying to use it for, it'll help you. Same thing with positive emotions. Same thing with even, like, stuff like being sad. Like, you know how, you know how, like you would think on the Surface, like, oh, no, no one would want to be sad, you know, like, that's a.

[Jocko Willink]

That's the sad movies.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly. Right. Listen to sad songs.

[Jocko Willink]

You just like. People go to horror films.

[Echo Charles]

Exactly.

[Jocko Willink]

My family. My kids watch horror film. Well, yeah, my kids watch horror films.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, all of them.

[Jocko Willink]

My wife can't even be in the house if there's a horror film on.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Ain't happening.

[Echo Charles]

That's the heart. The horror film's weird because there's an element, you know, people who like horror films, and some to a degree, I do too.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But it's just more. I feel like no matter how scary and gory and all this, like, you know, intense stuff going on there, you kind of can retreat to the inner safety of the fact that this is just a movie, you know, it's kind of like, you know, when it rains outside and it feels cozy because you're out in here, you know, kind of a thing. So it's almost like there's that going on.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But nonetheless, that's. But the sad thing doesn't. Isn't really explained. Like, that doesn't feel like it anyway. Like, let's say you go through a breakup and you're one of these feelers, you know, and you go through a breakup and then you want to listen to, like some sad song. It's like you want more sadness. It's weird. It's like you get pleasure in these. If you can kind of control, like. But when you. When you can't control it, whole freaking hate being sad. I hate being mad, sad, scared, bro. All these negative emotions or whatever. It's like, bro, if you can't control it, it sucks. It's bad. But if you can control them, they're going to be good. Even like positive emotions, if you can't control, you get too excited. And here's. Here's one of the things I thought of too, by the way, while I'm walking circles in my yard. Positive emotions are one of the main contributing factors to me getting injured a lot of the time because I get distracted by the excitement or the this or the that, I don't pay attention. Then I slip or I freaking don't brace, like, because I kind of hurt myself doing deadlifts. It was just. It wasn't terribly. But it was just a little bit. And it was like I was just getting too fired up, you know, and. But so I didn't pay attention to my technique, you see what I'm saying? And that can happen a lot. That's why, like, Little kids, they get excited, then they stub their toe on the side of the freaking thing because they tried to run through the door. You know what I mean? So it's like that kind of scenario. If you can, if you can control it, you'd be good.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. And believe it or not, you can. You controlling your emotions is a learned process. I mean clearly little kids have not learned to control their emotions. That's why they have temper tantrums. And then hopefully like a teenager has learned to control some of their emotions, but they haven't controlled them all yet. Right. They're still going to do some ignorant type activities, they're going to lose their temper, slam the door or whatever, be all mad. But hopefully by the time you're an adult, you have control over your emotions and your emotions aren't controlling you. But in combat or in a contest of any kind, how are these emotions? You know, you're the fighters that like, oh, I'm going to get him. You ever seen a fighter that was about to win cuz he put a guy back on his heels and it goes ham and like gases himself out or gas himself out on a, on a freaking guillotine choke and they're just dead after that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, man.

[Jocko Willink]

So that's like an, an emotional or. You ever seen the emotional fighter that come out mad? You know, like you talk so much during the, during the pre fight conference that I'm just like so mad I just go go crazy and get emotional and I lose the fight.

[Echo Charles]

Right. If you can't control it. Because some guys, let's face it, some guys, MMA is a good one where when they're mad but you can tell they're just using that anger as like this fuel for their game or whatever. In fact, you know, back when Dean won 80, I think it was. Yeah. ADCC like he had, he'd like when he won the absolute, he like lost. Right. His weight loss the day before. Yeah, yeah. So, so I forget who I think it might have been. Kid. He's. I think he's the one who said this might have been. I forget who it was. But he said no Dean, you could tell he was mad. He was like his anger, he used it as fuel and that's why he won. And I was like, huh, that would make sense. I don't know if that's true or not. But I, I remember thinking just like I'm thinking now, like bro, that's the thing. You can totally use negative energy and anger and all this stuff for good and for, and for it to be beneficial if you can control it.

[Jocko Willink]

That's the facts. Those are the facts right there. All right? To overcome the enemy's will, you must inspire and maintain a strong will to fight in your own troops. Combat can cause a wide range of human responses, from freezing under fire to acts of extraordinary valor and courage. The leader must ask, how will my Marines react to enemy contact? You can never be certain because so many intangible factors affect human will, such as fear, anguish, esprit and unit cohesion, to name only a few. Furthermore, your Marines reactions to combat will vary from man to man. And from time to time, some will fight more bravely in one engagement, but less than the next. But one point is certain. You, the leader, have tremendous influence on the fighting spirit of your Marines. And again, doesn't matter what the leadership situation is, that leader has a huge amount of influence on the people. Can be really positive, can be really negative. Combat stress. In combat, certain factors and reactions can inhibit a Marine's will to fight. These factors and reactions fall under the category of combat stress. Factors causing combat stress include stress, fear, panic, shock, fatigue. Some reactions are called acute stress reactions because they cause immediate loss of performance. An example of acute stress reaction is the fear you would experience if you suddenly came face to face with an enemy tank at close range. Yeah, although you heard me on the last podcast, like, I don't know how a tank. I don't know how an enemy tank is suddenly appearing to you at close range. Like, you'd be hearing some noise, some factors and reactor and reactions called cumulative stress build stress over time and include fatigue, anguish, and repeated exposure to danger. So on the last podcast, they talked about these two types of combat fatigue.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

One was immediate and acute, like, hey, I'm on the beach, we're getting mortared and machine gunned. I'm getting in this first crater that I find and I'm not getting out. As opposed to you're 14 days in, 16 days in, 18 days in. And now you break from the continuous fear and stress and it goes into that a little bit. Acute stress, sudden expect sudden, unexpected, relatively shortened duration. And very intense fear is the most common source of acute stress in combat. Fear is a reaction to danger. Since combat is inherently dangerous, dangerous fear is universal among men in battle. This makes fear not a sign of cowardice, but part of combat. Yeah. Yep. I like how they say that it's just part of combat. There is no not part of combat. If you're going into combat, there's going to be machine guns and there's going to be fear.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Humans instinctively want to survive, and combat threatens them with death. Fear of injury, fear of pain, and fear of being permanently disabled are normal in a combat situation. As men see other men being killed and injured in combat, their fears become more intense. They know the same can happen to them at any moment. And of course, the unknown is a great source of fear. And this is something that I talked about in the book Mikey and the Dragons. Right. You don't know what's going on. Man, that anticipation is so much worse than the thing. Yeah, it's so much worse than the thing. You, you know, it's being backstage with fighters or grapplers. You can see everyone all nervous, and then they. Then, you know, once you get out there, you're just doing your thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully.

[Jocko Willink]

Obviously, certain weapons cause a lot of fear. The amount of fear usually depends on what the Marine perceives he can do about it. For example, being mortar to bombed may raise great fear in infantrymen because he usually cannot respond directly to the source of the fire. Marines or, sorry, mines and booby traps have the same effect. On the other hand, the infantrymen may deal with better with fear caused by receiving enemy small arms because he can usually fire back. This is something that's important to think about in your world because there's certain things in your world that you can't really control. You can't even. Like, the market changes and you're afraid the market's going to change. Well, you can't really control that. So what can you control? What can you deal with right now? What can you impact? But sitting around and worrying about something like the market is not going to be helpful to you. You're better off freaking. Just getting out there and getting after talks about the German Stuka dive bomber, which had, like, the siren mounted on it. So when it would attack the dive bomber, it'd be like. And how that caused much more fear than normal, which is kind of makes sense. Yeah, it's kind of horrifying and cool at the same time. Fear causes both physiological and emotional reactions. Physiological reactions include trembling hands, nausea, perspiration, and increased breathing and heart rate. These reactions are not necessarily bad if. If effectively controlled, they help the body prepare for danger. In fact, controlled fear increases your ability to react to physical threats and survive them. Right. So you're. You get that adrenaline flowing, you're kind of hyped up. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Of course, we don't want to live like that because then it can Become a bad thing. Panic is a sudden burst of emotion that results in flight. It is particularly dangerous to a unit because it spreads rapidly. Isn't it kind of crazy? It's like the ultimate form of group think is a panic situation. A group panic. Oh, like in combat. After studying incidents of panic During World War II S.L.A. marshall noted two distinct steps in a unit that panics. First, some friendly action, such as the unexpected withdrawal of an adjacent unit, was misunderstood. Soldiers watching the adjacent unit withdraw panicked because they feared they would be isolated and surrounded by the enemy. This, in turn, caused the panic to spread quickly, and the entire unit fled. Yeah, like they talked about in World War I, how a runner, meaning, hey, Echo, go take this message to the rear and tell them we need more weapons or more ammunition. So you go. You start running back, and someone says, you, he's running.

[Echo Charles]

I'm running.

[Jocko Willink]

Next thing you know, it's five people, 10 people, then everyone's running.

[Echo Charles]

That's a weird. No, it's actually not weird. That makes sense if. Let's say you're on the downtown San Diego daytime just walking, and someone's walking towards you or in front of you, whatever, right? And they all of a sudden just start running.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, bro.

[Echo Charles]

You're at least gonna feel it. You know, it depends on your personality, but you're at least gonna. Whatever caused people to panic, you're gonna feel that it's weird. No other context except for them just running all of a sudden. It's weird how that is. It's like. It's almost like.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a. Like a tribal instinct, right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, it's like an instinct. Like, you know how people, like, they say. A lot of times they. They say it in this weird kind of esoteric way, but they're like, oh, yeah, we're all kind of. We're all connected or whatever, but you can kind of zoom out and be like, wait a second. Maybe there is, like, this thing that's connecting all of us, you know, and then someone interrupting it kind of like short circuits us for a little bit. You know how they interrupt in these little teeny tiny ways?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And there's got to be some. So we're up at Bull Hill Ranch for the council, and when we were up there, we know we ride horses, and actually, I've been riding horses for the last few. Because the way the schedule's set up. But the first time we went up there riding horses, there was, like, an incident with the horses where two of the horses got tangled up. They started fighting and there's like 35 horses, but they all got, like. Some of them. Some of them just started running. Right. The one I was on, I had to, like, chill that thing out. And I'm not an experienced horse rider.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

And by that, I mean that was my first time riding on a horse. So I'm like, going, okay, buddy. Like, okay, it's okay.

[Echo Charles]

It's okay.

[Jocko Willink]

But you could feel, like, the tension and same thing when you see a dog park or like, a dog. Like one dog starts running, they all get nuts, Right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so it's not that different that a human sees a human running and you think, what?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Panic.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, man.

[Jocko Willink]

So your behavior, especially from a leadership perspective, when you start to panic. And another thing is, like, where. What is your psychological state when you see someone else running? These guys are in combat, they're already afraid, so at least he's in war. That's all they need to see. Check. And then it says, panic usually begins in the rear and moves forward. This is why maneuver warfare tactics stress getting into your enemy's rear. But you must remember that a capable enemy will be trying to do the same to you and will sometimes succeed. Your Marines tend to panic. Your Marines may tend to panic when they feel cut off, isolated, or encircled. And then it says, shock or freezing under fire is the most common reaction to uncontrolled fear. You may observe Marines who completely lose the ability to act when they suddenly find themselves in danger and overcome by fear. Fight. Remember when it used to just be fight or flight, and then it became fight, flight, or freeze? Because people realize, like, that's the most common thing is locking up.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you ever locked up from fear?

[Echo Charles]

No. I mean, I feel like I have, but I can't remember a very particular time. Yeah. I feel like you'd be like, you're in the headlights. Right? Kind of a scenario. Yeah. Well, I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Some will cower in their fighting holes or sleeping bags, unable to fight no matter the circumstances. Others will have the will to fight, but find themselves physically exhausted and unable to move to fire a weapon. Yeah. And people just accept it. I was watching a thing about Everest the other day, and it's just at a certain point, people are like, yeah, I'm not. I'm not going anymore. Well, then you're going to die. And they're like, well, I guess I'm going to die then.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I mean, they might not say that, but when someone is saying, hey, I'm going to leave you here unless you get up and start walking and they're like, go ahead.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

They're just accepting death.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

I don't know if that's quite the same as fight or flight or freeze, but that's more like will just. Their will is broken.

[Echo Charles]

Right. Like they're. They'd rather. Like death is like a relief of some.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Existing torment or something like this. Yeah. The freeze feels like. It's like your brain kind of, you know, on a certain level kind of shuts down because it doesn't know what option to pick like, you know, like the, you know, the front part. I guess the front part of your brain is like, okay, logically, if since this is coming from here, I'm going to come from here, go from here. And since I see other stuff over here, I'm going to not. You know, it has this like decision making like sequence, you know, but when the one it kind of short circuits because it's like too much to process or whatever. It's like, it's like almost like a flash of. You have zero options, therefore you act on all available, which is none.

[Jocko Willink]

Which is just locked up. Locked up.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. That's what it feels like, you know.

[Jocko Willink]

And then it gets another source of courage. Any of these reactions may be temporary, lasting only as long as the danger is present, or the reaction may incapacitate a man indefinitely. However, fear can also be a source of courage. The fear of letting his comrades down is common in men who are about to enter battle for the first time, particularly against incohesively tightly knit units. Marshall noted the following in Men Against Fire. When fire sweeps the field, nothing keeps a man from running except the sense of honor, the bound obligation to the people right around him of fear, of failure in their sight, which might eternally disgrace him. So that's. That's what's keeping you there. I don't want to look bad in front of my friends. As Tony Fratty once said, I'd rather die. He was like horrified of heights and he had to remember that he had to freaking rappel off some giant building in Hong Kong and he was just scared. Like no part of his humanity wanted to go. Yeah, but he definitely didn't want to look weak. And so he just went. Just overcame the most primordial fear. But he just doesn't care. It's like better to die. And I 100 relate to that. Like I just. Yeah, I'd rather just die than go out looking like a. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, the. I got asked that question on the podcast. With Chris Williamson the other day, it was like, you know, overcoming fear. And I said, go.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, very. And I think that's something that you learn, you know, you learn in the military, at least for sure, that waiting is not gonna help you. Your fear is not gonna dissipate. Yeah, it's gonna get worse. I was. I was skiing, and it was like, springtime. Things were getting pretty thin, and there was, like, a legit little.

[Echo Charles]

Hesitation.

[Jocko Willink]

No, no, no, no. It was. It was a legit. Like, this is going to take some courage. You know, I hate to use that word when I'm talking about skiing.

[Echo Charles]

Hell, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But it was like, potential danger, right? Potential injury, right? Rocks, snow, ice, steepness. But I'm standing there, and in my head, I was just like, yep. I'm going like, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, oh, you think it's. You think it's. Well, you know, like, conversations are happening, and I'm just like. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Just learn that. You just gotta go.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yep. That's real. My daughter did that when we're skiing.

[Jocko Willink]

And is she skiing or snowboarding?

[Echo Charles]

She was skiing. I was snowboarding.

[Jocko Willink]

By the way, I got a Snowboard snowboard for you.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right.

[Jocko Willink]

My. My. My boy's got Cardiff snowboards.

[Echo Charles]

Okay.

[Jocko Willink]

So I got one for you. It's coming.

[Echo Charles]

Man, that's. Thanks, bro. I'm fired up about that. But, yeah, so he was like, like.

[Jocko Willink]

He said, echo's really into snowboarding. Right. I was like, hey, really is a strong word, but would he, like, probably to have a car to snowboard? Most likely.

[Echo Charles]

I'm too freaking down for the cause.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So your daughter.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, we're on the top of the mountain. I'm like, you know, at this point, I was like, was I. I wasn't brand new, but I was, like, kind of new. But I'm with her. So you know how, like, at this point, was she maybe, like, 9 years old? Maybe, I don't know, 10? So I'm thinking, like, that's what I'm worried about. Like, I don't need this girl freaking charging this freaking hill and then hurting herself. And I'm responsible, you know, and I'm, like, relatively new. I'm not like, some pro snor snowboarder where I can just freaking mosey down. No, I got this, you know, kind of a thing. So I'm. There's an element of nervousness. And she was scared. I don't know if she was scared or not, but we were hesitant up there. So I'm like, okay, wait. Like, if she falls down, maybe I can go over there and kind of, you know. So I'm making this plan. She's like. So she's looking at it. Looking at, not saying nothing. Looking at. She's like, I'm going. And she just goes. I was like, oh, I didn't feel, like, the control. But then I was like, huh? She just. I feel like she just charged.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

She was like, bro, I'm tired of just standing up here and, like, waiting, you know, for the unknown to, like, overcome me, you know?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. I always have felt in combat, for sure, like, being aggressive and having aggressive mindset is safer than being scared and being passive.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Same thing with Jiu Jitsu. Like, if you show up at Jiu Jitsu and you feel like, oh, we're doing this type, oh, we're doing stand up, and you're feeling like, lackadaisical, or you're feeling like, I don't know if I want to do stand up today. I want to get hurt. If you're doing stand up, freaking get it on. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, get it on. Don't. Don't be, like, weak like that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, speaking of fear and overcoming fear, I put this together the other day, which was pretty wild. So I was actually at the council, and we were talking. You know, we cover every subject, the council, and we get, like, granular. But, you know, they ask questions about all different aspects of life, including family. And one of the individuals was asking, you know, had, like, an incident with his daughter, who was nine years old, and he didn't, you know, he didn't, like. The outcome of the incident wasn't. It was nothing. But the first thing I relayed to him was the. The story that you and I have discussed, which is like, hey, Your son is 5.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, yeah. And then I went to the fact that I just said these things that your kids do at a young age, it has almost zero impact on the trajectory of their life. And the example that I ended up really nailing was Rana, my daughter, when she was probably 8 years old or something, she was so horrified to compete in a Jiu Jitsu tournament that she, like, got dizzy, got pale, was, like, sick and fell down and, like, couldn't compete. She was so horrified of competing. And what made me think of this example is, like, she just competed the other day and looked like she was going to a party. Like, she was having so much fun, smiling and dancing and, like, Just loving life. And it's my point in saying that is if you've got kids and you think that this little. One little tiny data point on their personality, it. You think it's like the. The beginning of the end.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

When in fact, it probably has almost Zero impact. Almost zero. Zero impact. Like, it's got to be like, a point.00001. And maybe the. The impact it'll have is, like, push them in the other direction.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, maybe Rana, at some point was like, well, I'm gonna get more. You know, I'm gonna become more confident or something like that. But if you can't freak out when your kids are little. Now, listen, if your kid has some pattern, some negative pattern for months at a time, then it's like, okay, you know, maybe I need to help them out. But a lot of it is just like, whatever, dude. Like, it's just a little kid doing a little random thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You can't put a bunch of money on that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. I learned a lot from that day. And, you know, as time goes on, you start to recognize that. That kind of sequence of things. So it. It's almost like, you know, also another expression that you say. It's like, it's a data point. Right. So it's like, yeah, it's a data point, but it's kind of even less. I mean, it's a data point at the end of the day, but it's just one single unit at a certain time, too. Things change, man. It's like, you know how. Like the idea of late bloomers.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Physically, I mean, you know, the late bloomers can apply to a lot of stuff. I understand. But physically, you know, people, they have their growth spurt, like, in their late teens or their 20s sometime. So that's like saying, oh, wait, he's like the second shortest kid in his kindergarten class, therefore, he's gonna be, you know, like, he's not gonna grow that much or something like this. It's like the same, like, evaluation process. Oh, yeah. It's like one data point at a very specific point in time. Yeah, exactly. Right. So, I mean, and that you saying that about Rana, like, I didn't know that about Rana, like, that she was, like, that nervous or didn't want to compete or whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

Horrified.

[Echo Charles]

And I'll tell you right now, but if.

[Jocko Willink]

If she sold me the other day, she never did a competition she didn't cry at.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

That's even once she. Which she would win, she'd cry.

[Echo Charles]

That's borderline Unbelievable. Given how she is.

[Jocko Willink]

She is, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

She's having all kinds of fun. I mean, it's ridiculous. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yes, sir, I do.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. It's almost like a different. It's. You wouldn't, if you were. If you didn't understand what we're talking about, you would think there's no possible way that a kid that started like that would finish like this. It wouldn't seem possible.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So if you got kids and you have fear because your kid, you know, didn't want to do something or didn't perform the way you expected, or quit early on, some little thing or. The other end of the spectrum is someone that's a little kid that's super determined. Those kids get burnt out, they don't want to do anymore.

[Echo Charles]

So just chill. So here's a mistake. And I say this is a deviation from, from the Marine Corps in war for sure. But the principles with the kid is relevant. It can work the other way too. So you know how, like, this is a common thing where let's say the mom or the grandma or whatever thinking from my experience, where let's say your kids. All right, I'll say my experience. My daughter was good at swimming and she could stand like cold water for some reason, like, better than all of us. Everyone, like in. During the winter time. I know it's not east coast or nothing like this, but San Diego, when it gets winter time, the pool gets colder than normal. I don't want to get in there, but she's like, she don't care. It's like literally a non factor. I'm from koiva, you gotta bear with me. But she'll just jump in like, as if she's not trying to impress nobody. She just jump in because, yeah, it's all jump in the pool. You know, she. She'd always been like that. And she got good at swimming real early. So we're like, oh yeah, let's put her in swimming. So we put her in swimming. She's like, I don't really like it. I was like, hey, just, just give it a good try. Cuz me just like Jiu jitsu, right? Where it's like, hey, once you get your first submission, you're going to be hooked. I. I already know, like, anything you get success at early, you're good. Chances are you're going to like it, right? And I knew she would do good. So she joins swimming and of course she does good. She wins like her meets, like, she won. She. She wins first place every Single time, except for like two second place things. Right. Win this. I'm like, oh, bro, this girl's going to be the swimmer. You know, But I was already hip to this notion where if I'm. If in my mind, oh, she's gonna be freaking the swimmer, I'm gonna like, be too overbearing. Yeah. And I'm gonna turn her off of, you know, because I know everything, right. So, you know, it's like I risk that. And I knew that, so I had to stick my. With my word. But I was on the inside. I was like, I. I felt that. I was like, oh, my gosh, this girl, she's gonna love it and it's gonna be, you know, I'm ready to get her, her all kinds of support and like all this stuff. Right. But I didn't. Sure enough, she was like, I mean, it was cool, fun to win, but I don't like swimming. She simply didn't like it. So it's like, just because they're good at it and like it at this point doesn't mean you start rearranging your whole life and their whole future for that one thing, you know, you gotta let time and, you know, just one data point.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And the other thing is, like, think about what you were doing when you were nine years old. You know what I mean? Like, it's totally ridiculous now. With me, I was running around in the, in the woods, like, with a freaking charcoal cork blackened and rubbed on my face, wearing a camouflage top, trying to shoot my buddy Jeff with a BB gun, bro.

[Echo Charles]

So was I, though.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, exactly, bro.

[Echo Charles]

I wasn't, I wasn't joining up. That, you know, that was not my, my thing, but. Which is actually part of the point.

[Jocko Willink]

How come you didn't join? What, the military? Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

I wanted to be an architect, actually.

[Jocko Willink]

What's interestingly but like cake nuts. You didn't see cake nuts going. You're like, yeah. You know what?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. They were like, well, Jeremy's dad was a Navy seal. And then Kikoa and Jeremy, they're just like, yeah, this is what we're doing, you know, kind of a thing.

[Jocko Willink]

And, and they didn't drag you into it.

[Echo Charles]

No, no, no. They were, they wanted to be like Navy SEALs. I was like, bro, I don't want to be a Navy seal. Doesn't make sense to me. Whatever. But they were, he had like a very specific. Like.

[Jocko Willink]

But they didn't get you hyped on it at all.

[Echo Charles]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, even if you were around playing BB guns, shooting BB guns in the woods. And. And your buddy's like, yo, we're gonna go do this for real. And you weren't like, hell, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

No, no, bro. I was way more of a mellow person, I think. I wasn't like.

[Jocko Willink]

But there's mellow teen guys.

[Echo Charles]

That has no bearing on my personality or what I wanted to do at all under anything. And you got to think, too, on. In Kauai, the military culture is not super strong. So it's not like. That's not like the. You know, if someone's just floating in the. In the winds. You don't. I don't. I hardly know anyone who went in the military. I think I know like three, four guys besides Jeremy Cake Nuts. Actually, one. Yeah. One of my best friend, he went. He was a pilot and then one guy went into the army, that I remember. So, yeah, I don't know, it's probably a whole thing. A whole right number of listeries.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, if you would have gone, maybe you would have learned about overcoming fear. Fear is a powerful force in battle. It is common all men, rarely discussed and understood. You'll feel it yourself. Instead of denying fear, you need to think about it, plan for it, and learn how to lead yourself and your Marines in spite and act in spite of it. Yeah, this is still just something that you can't really 100% get control over. People are going to be afraid, but it is very good to let them know what they're feeling. If they know what they're feeling, it makes it easier to overcome. I know we had some MMA fighters and I would. I had a kind of a standard speech for the MMA fighters when I'd see that and those nerves start to kick up and just talk about, hey, there's some things you can't control over. In Iraq, you could be driving down the street, get blown up, killed by a freaking roadside bomb. That can happen. And you know how much I worried about that? Barely any, because I couldn't control it. I worry about getting shot or getting to a firefighter, having one of my guys get wounded or killed. But there's some things you can't control. And just like when you're about to go in this cage and fight this person, there's some things you can't control. You might. You know what, you might get caught with a freaking left hook that knocks you out. You might get caught with a cut with a. Caught with a straight right that you just go down. And you know what? You've trained as hard as you can. There's nothing more you could do about it right now. What. You can just go out there and fight your fight, focus on what you can control, and that's what you got to deal with. So same thing with guys. You two guys, like, in combat, like, going to the bathroom a bunch of times before an operation, you're like, dude, you nervous? No, I'm not nervous. Yeah, you are. It's all good, man. It's all good. You're supposed to be.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, that. How you would say, say that. And even recently, where you. When you say these feelings you're feeling are normal.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

When you. Anytime you indicate that it's normal, it's. It's like you almost give them permission to have those feelings and then not panic for having those feelings, you know, kind of a thing. Because the element of panic is kind of like. Especially when you look around, you can't read somebody's mind. Like, sure, this guy seems a little bit nervous, but, bro, on the inside, I feel like 10 times as nervous as this person looks, you know? So you think there's something kind of wrong with you and you might short circuit or. Or whatever, you know? But then once someone says, oh, no, no, that's normal, you know, and that's like, oh, wait, I can feel like this. And then you feel, like, way less, like, destructively nervous. You know, I remember with football camp, where in college football camp, you know, like 2A days and condition, like, it's. It freaking sucks. It's. It's not a very fun experience, given the whole football experience is the least fun part. And it's however many weeks or whatever. And then you get a lot of new guys from, you know, out of town and stuff. And, you know, some of the freshmen, they're new to the state, and it's like, you're just doing football, and it's like you get homesick real quick. And I remember thinking, shoot, man, am I, like, not cut out for this? Because I am not enjoying this anymore. Like, football is not fun right now. And I got to do dedicate my, quote, unquirt life to it. I'm like, freaking, bro. Some question marks were coming in my head. And then about that time, this other guy from a. Like, I was from Hawaii, and we're still in Hawaii, so it's kind of whatever. This other guy from, like, Kentucky, he was like, he's just straight up overtly saying, this isn't for me. I'm. I'm leaving. I'm. I'm gonna quit. Like, this just. This isn't for me. And they're like, what? What's not for you? He's like, man, this is just not for me, man. I. And he couldn't put his finger on it. It. The thing is, probably we're all going through that. It's like, bro, it's. It becomes less and less fun. You feel claustrophobic, you feel like you're in prison. Like, all these little feelings that it's almost like you can't put your finger on, they add up after. After a certain amount of time. And then everyone would laugh on them. Like the veterans, the guys who have been there for a while, they'd like laugh and he'd be like, what the hell? Or whatever. He's like, he's like, bruh, that's how it is. Like, he's like, it'll be better when school starts, right? I remember one guy said that and then he's like, I don't know, man, I don't know. And then he kept saying it for days. It's not for me. Every single person would say, haha. They'd laugh and they say, it'll get better when school starts. I'm thinking, oh, this is like normal. Like, everyone feels like this and everyone like, knows what to say. Everyone knows the process, you know? So then I felt, I felt way better after that. I was like, okay, I guess this is normal. So I guess I'm allowed to feel like this.

[Jocko Willink]

Exactly. Yeah. No, that's a key component. And you can, you can help your kids out with, with that a lot too.

[Echo Charles]

I have ever since.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, it's okay. You'd be afraid right now. Oh, it's. Oh, yeah, you're going to a new school. Everyone's nervous going to the new school.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, I've said that to a thousand people coming into Victory MMA when they're like, well, I've just never trained before. Like, yeah, there's four more people in the class that you're going to right now. They've never trained before.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And you're all going to get in there, you're all going to do fine. It happens every day.

[Echo Charles]

It was so funny because, well, I got the words from you, like, hey, that's normal. Instead of saying, hey, don't worry about it. Like, instead of saying, hey, don't feel this.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Be like, no, no, yeah, yeah, of course. You know, you're sad, you're mad or whatever. And it applies to everything, not just, not just fear. So I'd use it with my daughter because, you know, like, girls, when they breach Puberty and all this stuff. They feel like insecure and oh my God this and all that. And bro, I would use that thing every day. I'm like, oh yeah, that's normal. That's part of like this whole process or whatever.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And I've got gone and talked to a lot of people, both military and law enforcement and mil and yeah, military law enforcement where it's like, oh yeah, you went, you went through something really terrible and you feel sad, angry, confused, depressed and, and chaotic in your brain. Oh yeah, that's normal. Cool. Yep. It'll go away. Like it won't go completely away. It won't go away overnight. But like you're going to live on, you're gonna keep doing stuff and you'll feel it sometime. You'll think about your friends that you lost. Oh yeah, you miss your friends that you lost. Yeah, that's totally normal. Totally normal. So drive on back to the document. The cumulative effects of combat stress are the greatest of all. In World War II, nearly 25% of all casualties were related to stress. In some units, stress casualties were equal or equal to or greater than those from death and injury. Dang. Early combat experience usually builds confidence and steals a man for comp for future combat. However, this is true only to a point. As stress mounts with each new enemy contact, a Marine's performance suffers and adverse reactions begin. Some men develop fatalistic attitudes, joking about death, believing it's only a matter of time before the number opens up. Been there, done that. They may throw caution to the wind and behave irrationally in the face of fire. Others may experience great internal conflict as stress builds and they try to overcome their loss of courage. All those things are all, all things that can take place. It's funny the, the, the like irrational anger and stuff. I got to see that sometimes, you know, guys that would be just guys would be, I mean and you see this in any organ in any situation. When people are stressful, when there's a lot of stress put on, they lash out, they break, they yell, they scream. Like that's all just normal, this is the way it is. Yeah, but then you put them in combat for extended period of time, that's going to maybe even happen even more. And the other thing that's funny is when you come home kind of people forget about that, you know what I mean? Kind of like we forget about the bad stuff. Stress related suicide. Such men may deliberately seek death as the only honorable escape from their predicament. Others may take their own lives during the six hour aerial bombardment. Prior to Operation Goodwood, the 1944 Allied breakout from a Normandy beachhead, at least 25 German soldiers committed suicide. I tried to find a source for that. I couldn't find it. I'm not saying it's. I'm not saying it's not true, but I. But that's really fascinating. I would think if I thought I was gonna die and I was a soldier, I would do everything I can. If I'm gonna die to kill as many of my enemy as I possibly could, I wouldn't just do their job for them. You know what I mean? That's a really weird outcome. But I guess if you're suffering a bombardment for six hours and you're just knowing you're gonna lose and you're just waiting to die in some horrible way, you're like, oh, well, I'll just finish the job, I guess. Today. It is generally accepted that all men have a breaking point. There is no doubt that troops, however well led, can only take the stress of battle for so long, then they break. Any commander at any level who tries to overdraw the account is courting disaster. The mental and physical constantly interact. Therefore, physical fatigue, hunger, disease, thirst, and above all, the stress of adverse climactic conditions. Climatic conditions can reduce the physical state of the soldier to such an extent that his will to fight is broken. So, yeah, fatigue makes cowards of us all, but so can cold, so can heat, so can freaking sores on your feet and, and mosquitoes gnawing at you. Like all, all those little things combined together, they can break your will. And by the way, that was Major General T.S. hart. Each man's breaking point is difficult. Oh, sorry. Identifying each man's breaking point is difficult, if not impossible. Some men draw from a deep well of courage, while others break early from. From the anxiety of entering combat for the first time. Rest and encouragement can replenish the will only to a certain degree. So they're saying, like, oh, yeah, if you, if you get broken, rest is only going to replenish you to a certain point. I think that depends on how broken you let them get. Yeah, I think if they get a little, a little bit, you know, so a little, a little fracture can heal back up, but maybe like a compound fracture that's completely broken, sticking through the skin, maybe that's not going to heal up all the way. While most of your Marines will never reach their property breaking point, some will. Depending on the severity of the breakdown, their incapacity may be short or long term. Many psychiatric casualties are reversible if they receive prompt treatment as close to the front as possible. So that's kind of in line with what we've been saying. But some severe cases require long term treatment in rear area medical facilities. A few never recover. So there you go. Get them off the front lines, get them into the helpless, quick as you possibly can. If you got somebody at work that's starting to break, they're starting to get stressed out, you're starting to see them, they're not eating, they're looking sick, they're feeling, they're getting sick, they're freaking out, they're losing their temper. Give them a break. People need a break sometimes. Over time, the cumulative effects of anxiety, anger, anguish, fatigue, boredom, and repeated exposure to danger reduces combat effectiveness in almost all men. As you lead marines in prolonged combat, watch carefully for signs of stress related breakdown and treat quickly. Stress casualties can be just as debilitating as those caused by death or physical injury. So as a leader, you got to be paying attention. Many factors determine a marine's will to fight. Combat factors such as fear, stress, fatigue and fatigue affect each marine differently. Since it's impossible to predict or measure the impact these combat factors will have on on your men, you as a marine leader must do your best to you can to prepare yourself and your men. Study and learn human behavior in combat and use your own actions and example to positively affect your men's will to fight. You are the most important factor keeping your marines fighting. And as much as all I just laid out, this is an interesting quote. Here it is my belief that no one can give a prescription for a correct application of the principle of psychology in war. The only thing of which we are certain is this. The psychology of the soldier is always important. No commander lacking in this inner knowledge of his men can accomplish great things. It's like it's so variable that they don't actually say, hey, here's how you handle this. It's so variable that's like, oh, this guy might be in one day totally stressed out, get him to the rear. This guy might let make it 14 days before he gets stressed out and you send him to the rear. I guess the only thing that's not variable is you have to be able to identify it, you have to pay attention to it. And then when it happens, you got to pull somewhere to the rear. Also. It's pretty, pretty clear that people are more afraid of what they can't see than what they can see. And they're also more afraid when they don't have control versus when they have control. Like, for me, I always felt more, more scared in a vehicle than on foot. Because in a vehicle you have less control. In a Humvee, I'm the vehicle commander. I can be like, stop, go. Turn left, turn right. In a tank or in a Bradley. Like you have. No, I have no control. I'm sitting in the back with a bunch of freaking soldiers or Marines. And that, that, that thing is going, that Bradley's going where it's going. And if it gets blowed up, you're just getting blowed up, you know. So I had the most tension, I would say, like fear, but the most, like discomfort in a Bradley with the least amount of control. And then the Humvee with a little more control than on foot. I'm in control. So this next section deals with the other thing that we have to contend with as a leader, which is the friction of war. And it says friction is the force that makes apparently easy. That makes the apparently easy so difficult. Friction inhibits effective performance when a plan fails because the trucks do not arrive or the link up unit gets lost. This is friction. Friction is not a difficult concept to understand because you can see it daily during both peace and war. So portrayed war appears a simple enterprise. But in practice, because the countless factors that impinge upon it, the conduct of war becomes extremely difficult. That's from war fighting Marine Corps. Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult.

[Echo Charles]

Ooh.

[Jocko Willink]

The difficulties that accumulate end by producing a kind of friction that is inconceivable unless one has experienced war. Friction is the only concept that distinguishes real war from war. On paper, that's Carl von Clausewitz from his famous book on war, which we have not covered. People ask me a lot of times why we haven't covered on war yet. We will at some point, but the main reason we haven't is because I prioritized other books that I think more accurately reflect what I've experienced. And that's why I like BH LaBelle Hart, who is kind of counter to. He's the Other. He's kind of the. Maybe this is strong, but a little bit more opposing of the cloud switz view, but the classics view. There's plenty of good takeaways that we should pay attention to, myself included. Maybe I'm like, here, what are those? Like a hipster with music?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Like a hipster with music is like. Oh, that band.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, they're. They're so popular. I don't listen to Them. Yeah, I'm like an elitist. You know, I like the. I like the. The more lower unknown, not the Bejold Hard is unknown, but he's definitely not as popular as Cloud Switzerland. Yeah, but then again, we've covered upon really popular stuff too. I mean, freak. We covered Napoleon, for crying out loud, and. And Sun Tzu. So we've covered the greatest hits, but we have. But there's a great assist we haven't covered yet. And that's Coswitz. Maybe I need to get in the game.

[Echo Charles]

Maybe.

[Jocko Willink]

Check noted. Opposing wills. It is impossible to fully appreciate friction in combat until you've experienced it. Enormous friction is generated simply by the fact that combat is uniquely dangerous. And the reality is that the. The enemy is trying to kill you. The very essence of war. A clash between opposed wills creates friction. The enemy is not an inanimate object, but an independent and active force that seeks to resist your will and impose your own will on you. This dynamic interplay between the enemy's will and your will makes war difficult, complex, and full of friction. So we were talking earlier about paintball versus live fire.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

This is an interesting thing. So in. When you're using paintball and people are shooting at paintball at you, and you don't really want to get hit, but you still don't really mind that much.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

You see what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So on the one side, I might run across the street and grab Echo and drag him back, even though there's people shooting paintball at me, I'll do like a full freaking Medal of Honor run to freaking save you. Right. And. But. But we might think, oh, well, that's not really realistic because you aren't actually getting shot at, so you're not actually going to die. But it kind of gets leveled out because the people that are shooting at me, my guys are putting down cover fire on them. So the fact that they're still shooting is a little bit unrealistic. They might be not be taking such accurate shots because they're freaking, like, scared of getting shot themselves.

[Echo Charles]

So it.

[Jocko Willink]

It evens out a little bit.

[Echo Charles]

Interesting.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, you wouldn't be so brave, but the enemy wouldn't be so accurate.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Gotcha.

[Jocko Willink]

This kind of reminds me of I'll be training with, like, I. I had this discussion actually with Miha because, like, if. If I get a heel hook on you, but we're just. We're just training, right? So I get a heel hook on you, well, I'm not gonna put the full effect of the heel hook to where I'm gonna hurt you. But also you're not going to go as crazy defending it, nor are you going to take it as far as you would if we were in competition.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So I think it kind of evens out that if we were training I put a heel hook on you. It was a good solid heel hook. I go to, I go to start, apply the press and you. But I don't apply it so hard because I don't want to hurt you. At the same time, you're not defending as chaotically. But more important, you're, you're taking it further because.

[Echo Charles]

A little bit brave on that one.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, you're a little bit more brave because I'm a little bit more chill.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

But if we escalate both those things, we're probably pretty realistic. So if I was going harder but you were taking it further, then, you know, we probably get to a place where just the training, the 85%, like, well, you know, you know, you might say to me, like, if you get out of a heel hook, you might be like, I might say, like, I would have had you if I went all the way and you would have been like, well, I would have defended more and I would have taken it to a more of a limitation.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Because let's face it, we're not, we're not training our ACLs, you know what I'm saying?

[Echo Charles]

Very hard.

[Jocko Willink]

So I think when you're training appropriately, it does reflect very closely the real thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that makes.

[Jocko Willink]

Not quite the real thing, but the real thing.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that makes sense. Actually, I never thought about that. That's true. Like, yeah, you're way, you're way more inclined to, you know, stay in the pocket. See if you can't wiggle out of that arm bar or he'll hook or whatever. When the guy's not freaking cranking on that thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep.

[Echo Charles]

Like it, like he's trying to really rip it off, you know, like he would be in the competition. Right.

[Jocko Willink]

And, and, but also if you get my arm in a competition, I might let that thing pop two, three, four times and I can still functionally fight. It's just that I'm injured now. You know, I can still get through the fight. So there's a little bit. It's very realistic. Surprisingly.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, you get that word balance.

[Jocko Willink]

Except for maybe with chokes. Because chokes you can take out.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, let's go, 99. Let's go. Sources of friction. Friction comes from both external and self imposed sources. External friction is imposed by fractures such as enemy action, the terrain, the weather, or mere chance. Self imposed friction includes factors such as a lack of clearly defined goals, a lack of coordination and unclear climbing complicated plans. Isn't it interesting that the freaking friction that we have to fight against a bunch of it comes from us? Please keep that in mind. A bunch of the friction in your life is self generated. It's important to keep in mind that friction from any source has a way of sneaking up on you. Despite awareness and planning countless minor incidents, the kind you can never really foresee, can combine and create friction, causing you to fall short of your goals. I think that I personally am very good at predicting friction. It's like I know that things are harder than they're going to be. I know that friction is going to sneak in. You know, it's like BTF Tony used to say, every. Everything takes a half an hour. Like you think it's going to take, hey, we'll just take 10 minutes to reload these radios now. It's going to take a few freaking half an hour. Everything takes a half an hour. That's a little, that's just a little element of friction. That's just universal.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

For combat. For a combat leader, friction has two important implications. The Marine Corps war fighting doctrine teaches that while you should try and minimize self induced friction, the greater requirement to fight effectively within the medium of friction. This means accept friction as part of the combat fight. This means accept friction as part of combat and fight effectively despite it. That's really good. Maybe that's what I. There, there's. Let me put you this way. I'm not often surprised when things don't go like perfectly. You know what I mean? I'm not like, oh my God, what happened? No, I'm like, oh, okay, I get it. That's friction. Oh, that little thing went wrong. Oh, it took longer than we expected. Oh, the, the people didn't show up. Oh, the thing went. Yeah, I, I'm like used to that. Overcoming friction requires will learn to prevail through your persistent strength of mind and spirit. It helps to remember that friction affects both you and your enemy in combat. That's. That's a good one, right? Hey, the enemy's cold too, right? Or the enemy's hot or the enemy's tired. So while you strive to overcome the effects of friction, you must attack. Attempt to raise your enemy's friction to a level that destroys his will and ability to fight. If you can operate at a higher tempo than your enemy despite friction you'll be victorious. Brian Stan. Brian Stan was hyped on freaking tempo, dude. Operational tempo. That's what he was. He was a full supporter of operational tempo. To generate and maintain a high tempo within an environment of friction, you must control subordinates by using mission orders. So this is when we get into a very important part from a leadership perspective. Mission orders. The way that they use that term in the Marine Corps and the military at large is like, this is when you tell someone what the mission is, what the purpose is, what the commander's intent is. Not like, hey, I need you to do this specific thing. You don't say that. You say, this is where we want to get to get us there. And it. And the. That's actually a really good example of like, instead of trying to give someone freaking street by street directions to get somewhere, instead you just say, hey, you're gonna head north and you're gonna look for this landmark. And when you see this landmark, go just a much more. I don't care what route you take to get there. None of that matters to me. But here's where you need to get to. You can figure it out. You can use gps. You can use the freaking map and compass. You can use the Thomas road maps or whatever. Remember those old things? Probably use them for the moving company.

[Echo Charles]

No, no, no.

[Jocko Willink]

Well, what they're saying here is that to avoid friction, you need a high tempo. In order to have on a high tempo, you've got to give people mission type orders. And that is, this is your task, this is your purpose, this is my intent. Go make it happen. Sometimes you will see leaders use detail orders to closely control subordinates in an effort to eliminate friction, which means they're focusing inward rather than take friction in stride. Historically, however, this has seldom worked. Yeah, that's called a little something called centralized command, which does not work in the face of friction. Your most important challenge is to maintain focus on your mission. Friction generates constant and urgent pressure to lay your mission aside. This is Echo Charles talking about distractions. Casualties demand your immediate attention. Communications break down. Your neighboring unit you told word would be would attack has not done so. Your key subordinate leader has just been killed. These are all little points of frictions. All these distractions and more will press upon you, forcing you to lay aside the mission. This challenges your strength of will. You must be strong enough to keep yourself and your unit focused on the mission, despite the pressure to do otherwise. So there it is, Echo Charles, right in line with the Marine Corps. These distractions. Yeah, and it Will, you got jammed up by a lot of distractions back in the day. Are you doing better now?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, big time. Because of understanding that. Well, and the. The real. Put it this way, the. The premise that kind of was. Furthermore, we'll say was you'd be surprised what kind of forms distraction can come in. So a lot of times it's like comfort, you know, comfort is like a distraction.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Or it is a distraction or like some kind of relief or, you know, I don't know, pleasure. I don't know. Like, there's a lot of distractions. Mm. This obvious one's like, you know, tv or. I don't know if you have a goal or whatever, but, like, they have. There's like an expression. What's it called? The shiny object syndrome. You know, it's like that kind of stuff.

[Jocko Willink]

A lot of people. There's a kids movie that has, like, a thing that chases a squirrel all the time. You're not familiar with this kids kids movie, Squirrel? You hear people say that now that's the. It's the new shiny object is squirrel.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah. It's all distractions. But, yeah, if you can. I would almost argue that a lot of time, most of the time, people don't get to where they want to go because of some sort of a distraction.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. That's certainly very. Plays a huge part.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And sometimes the distractions, like, it's here, it says your key subordinate leader has just been. Been killed. It's calling that a distraction.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I mean? Which is pretty psycho.

[Echo Charles]

Right.

[Jocko Willink]

But at the same time, you got to accomplish the mission, and you got to assume that if you don't accomplish the mission, it's not only going to be your subordinate leader that gets killed. You got to get across that airfield, you got to seize that high ground, whatever that thing is. If you don't do it, you're going to lose a lot more than just your subordinate leader.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you can't get distracted, but yeah. If you're paying attention to the things that distract you, that's a huge help.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because a lot of people being distracted, they don't even know it.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Don't even know what's going down, bruh.

[Echo Charles]

Tradition can be a distraction.

[Jocko Willink]

True.

[Echo Charles]

From like, it's.

[Jocko Willink]

It's pretty much the way we've always done it. Just keep doing it.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time. Or you're. You're trying to. I don't know. Oh, you're trying to, like, cut down. You're Trying to make weight, you're trying to lose weight. Trying to reach a certain, like, weight physically. These. That's. I feel like that's like the real obvious mission that a lot of people are on.

[Jocko Willink]

Right?

[Echo Charles]

But no, but, oh, Christmas dinner. See what I'm saying? It's the tradition.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah, Christmas dinner. I was like, what does this have to do with anything?

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, bruh. I can distract you. Like, that's the tradition. So it, like, distract, you know, takes your eyes off the goal. You gotta tend to that. Right?

[Jocko Willink]

And in order to do that, you gotta impose your will. Right? So the leader's will, in an effort to keep your unit fighting and focused on its mission, your own will, the will of the leader is the single most important factor. Being a leader requires great strength of will. Marines sense their leader's strength of will. If your will is weak, your Marines will yield easily to fear and stress. If your will is strong, it will instill and strengthen courage and determination in your men. Going to close this out, close out this section because there's more in this, in this book, and I'm the. It kind of drifted into some things that I didn't think were. Would be as pertinent for our people. I'm going to close this out. The story from the Korean War, and it says Captain Robert H. Baro, Commanding Officer, Company A, 1st Battalion, 1st Marines, provides a powerful picture of strength of will in combat, in battle, at best. SLA Marshall described Barrow's exceptional leadership during the 1st Marine Division's legendary mark march to the sea from the chosen Reservoir in December 1950. At dark on 8December, the snowfall ceased and the cold intensified down along the canyon, the canyon road near the Watergate, a brisk wind was piling on the drifts as high as a man's head. At the battalion cp, which was partly sheltered by the canyon wall, the thermometer read 30 degrees below zero. Up on the wind swept crags where Able Company was clearing Chinese dead from the bunkers to make room for its own ranks and at the same time preparing to evacuate its own casualties down the iced slopes of the mountain. It must have been a touch colder than that, though. There was no reading of the temperature. All the batteries had frozen. Weapons were stiffening. The camp long since had run out of water because of the freezing of canteens. To ease their thirst, the men ate snow and seemed to thrive on it. But many of the problems raised by the weather. But of the many problems raised by the weather, the most severe one was getting an average man to observe what the field manuals so EAS easily described as a common sense precaution. For example, prior to marching from Chinhong Ni, Captain Barrow of Abel had made certain that each of his men carried two spare pairs of socks. But that safeguard did not of itself ensure his force through. The men with the feet sweated from the labors of the day were all at the point of becoming frostbite casualties by the hour of the bivouac. Captain Borrow continues quote, I learned that night that only leadership will save men. Under winter conditions, it's easy to say that men should change socks. Getting it done is another matter. Bootlaces are become iced over during prolonged engagements and snow drifts. It's a fight to get a boot off the foot. When a man removes his gloves to struggle with the laces, it seems to him that his hands are freezing. His impulse is all against it. So I found it necessary to do this by order, staying with the individual until they had changed, then making them get up and move to restore the circulation, end quote. That process, simple and telling, consumed hours. By the time Barrow was satisfied that his command was relatively snug, it was wearing on. Toward midnight, right then, his perimeter was hit by a counter attack. An enemy force in platoon strength plus striking along the same ridgeline from Hill 1081 in approximately the same formation which Barrow had used during the afternoon. All that needs to be told about this small action is summed up in Barrow's brief radio report to Lieutenant Colonel Schmuck. Quote, they hit us. We killed them all. So there you have it. There is going to be resistance, right? There's going to be friction. And the most important force in those scenarios, the force that we utilize to overcome fear, to overcome inertia, to overcome friction, to overcome resistance, is the human will. And we have to remember that a leader can impose his will, or if he's not careful, he can impose his weakness. And then it is very important, critically important, perhaps for most people listening, most important, to remember that you are your own leader. You are the soldiers. Yes. You're the captain. Yes. You're the battalion commander. You're even the freaking general. You are in charge of what you do. You have to make the calls and you are going to resist. You, and you can't do that. You can't allow the prisoners, the inmates to run the prison. Right? You can't. You got to impose your will on yourself. Don't let your own troops yourself. Don't let yourself down the easy path. You can't do that. You have to Take the hard path. You have to force yourself to take off your gloves and untie your frozen laces and change socks so that your feet don't become frostbite. You have to force yourself to get up in the morning and go do physical activity so that you don't become weak. You have to force yourself to put away the donuts and eat something healthy. You have to impose your will. That is where the leader's will comes into play every single day. It's in your own head. So keep that in mind. And that's what we got. And speaking of will and speaking of discipline, we need to impose discipline on ourselves, impose our own will every day. Training, fighting, running, lifting, stretching, reading, writing. Just got to be doing everything. When you're doing that, you're gonna need fuel. We recommend the best fuel, actually. We recommend you try out Jocko Fuel. Hey, check it out. Jockey fuel.com. we got the real goods there. We got deals there on jockey fuel.com. we got. We got free shipping over 99 bucks. On jockerfuel.com we got subscriptions that get you up to 20, 20 off and a bunch of free gifts there. So we got it. We're trying to take care of you. Trying to take care of our core people, right? The troopers that are out [e-mail], if you're one of the troopers there, we will give you. We'll give you the goods. So check that out. And you know what we've got there? We got protein. I just drank a moat protein. Freaking tasty, by the way. We drank some milk I also had. So today I've only partaken in Jocko Fuel products. A hydrated, a go, a mo, and I have another go that's kind of like we're sipping through because we got. Because it tastes good and that's what we're doing. And we got what I have this morning. Joint warfare time. War super krill this morning. Yeah, that's every morning for me. I'm a little nuts because I have three super krill at night, three super krill in the morning, three joint warfare at night, three joint warfare in the morning. And I have time more every morning.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's. That's a. That's a mega dose for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. But, man, here I am over here getting after it. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, I do.

[Jocko Willink]

So you might want to check all that stuff out. If I go. If I go on a trip, I bring some of that Cold War. So you got some Cold War over there. You Partake in a little cold war right now.

[Echo Charles]

Well, I brought it for a video, but the answer is still yes. Of course.

[Jocko Willink]

When I go somewhere and I have to shake hands with 1000 people and I have to ride on four different airplanes filled with disease ridden people. Cold war all day cold. So that's what we got. Go to jockerfield.com to check it out. Or you can go to Walmart, Wawa Vitamin Shop, GNCs, military commissaries, AOPHES, Hannaford Dash Stores, Wakefern, Shoprite, H E B down in Tejas, Leif was pointing out to me that sometimes you got to look around a little bit because it might not be exactly. You might not find like go with the energy drinks. You might not find it might be in a different section. You can ask somebody, he be super cool. Same with Meer. If you got to ask somebody, ask somebody. Same with Wegmans, Harris, Teeter, Publix, like all these regional freaking places that are kind of the place to go in their various neighborhoods. If you, if you don't see it where you might expect to see it, just ask somebody pointed out where it is. And then we've also got a lifetime fitness shields and then a bunch of little gyms, little gyms, big gyms, Victory MMA and fitness. We got jockey fuel, a lot of it, which is real nice. It's a real nice little situation there. If you need it in your small gym or in your business or your chiropractor, in your hair salon or in your massage office or your cold plunge facility or your, what are the gymnastics joint?

[Echo Charles]

Dental.

[Jocko Willink]

Dental office. Like you don't want your kids drinking sugar. No, no. So if you, if you got a, if you got any kind of business and you want to give them the goods, email jfsalesjocofield.com we got you covered. Also if you want communist free clothing, go to originusa.com and get clothing that is made without. It's 100% communist free. No communism can be detected at all. We are communist free clothing built by Freedom. Originusa.com we got workout clothes, we got hunt clothes, we got jiu jitsu clothes, we got jeans just to wear when you're taking your wife out to dinner. By the way, there's, there is a female jeans that are slightly in the works right now.

[Echo Charles]

Really?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Echo Charles]

Like exclusive female, like women's jeans that.

[Jocko Willink]

Women's jeans? Yeah, women's all right. I got that habit from the military. It's just like the most like way to describe a female. It's just female. You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

Like textbook. Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You don't know. You don't play any gray areas in the military, you know, male, female, Those are just two things we're talking about here.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So sometimes that still I wouldn't say like a lady or women's. Like you were able to easily as a civilian just be like, oh, women's.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

But no, I was thinking female.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I mean?

[Echo Charles]

I figure when you go to like one of these stores, you know, with fashion items. Yeah. You're gonna go in the women's section, not the female section.

[Jocko Willink]

But if you go, if you go to the Navy exchange, you go to military uniforms. There's male and female, I'm pretty sure. Don't quote me on that. It feels like that's the way it should be, I feel. But females, women, sure. We will have you covered in the future. But go to origin USA.com and get yourself some communist free clothing. No communism whatsoever detected.

[Echo Charles]

It's good.

[Jocko Willink]

So there you go.

[Echo Charles]

Yep. Speaking of clothing, jocko store.com Mostly like t shirts, some hats on there, some hoodies and stuff. But it's discipline equals freedom.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

See what I'm saying? So we're representing on this path that we're all on, by the way.

[Jocko Willink]

100.

[Echo Charles]

Oh yeah, big time. So yeah, just wing goes freedom. Good. Get after it. Actually I'm wearing to get after it right now. You know, these various ideas while we're on the path, you know, you can represent. We have a thing called the shirt locker. It's a new design shirt every month. People seem to like that a little bit outside the box as far as the creativity goes, I think anyway. But yeah, people seem to like that one. So check that, that one out. It's on Jocko store calm. We have new stuff coming out over the next two weeks, so be on the lookout for that. And if you want to be updated on new stuff in the future. I don't spam nobody. Just put your email, sign up for the email list. You sign up on the little thing on the form.

[Jocko Willink]

Can we expect spam?

[Echo Charles]

Do not expect spam. Look, if you're into spam, emails or whatever, sorry about it, I don't have anything for you. But if you want to be updated, maybe even some discounts down for a little discount from time to time. Yeah, put your email in there. I'll hit. I'll. I'll hook you up there anyway. Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Jocastore.com also primal beef.com Colin Craft beef.com you know, you need steak, you need all beef. Hot dogs, you need, you need ground beef. Get the good stuff. Actually, it's great stuff. I just had a Colorado craft beef ribeye last night. It was freaking tasty. That being said, it was a Colorado craft beef ribeye, but I used the Shawn Glass Primal beef methodology for cooking it.

[Echo Charles]

You got the hybrids.

[Jocko Willink]

3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1.

[Echo Charles]

Okay. All right.

[Jocko Willink]

Get it done. Check those out. Great steak from great people. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also check out jockoenerground.com Also check out our YouTube channels. Bunch of books. Next book you need to probably get is called need to Lead, by speaking of the Marine Corps, Dave Burke.

[Echo Charles]

Good deal, too.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, good deal. Dave Burke. He's got a book, need to Lead. I've read it. I wrote the forward to it, by the way. You know, just over here writing the forward. So it's a great book. Lots of really good information and good angles on things from that aviation perspective. Also, I've written a bunch of books, including a bunch of kids books. So check those kids books out. Way the warrior kid. 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. We got a movie coming out starring Chris Pratt. You ever heard of him?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, I hear, yeah. Great things.

[Jocko Willink]

You like his acting skills?

[Echo Charles]

Yes. Of course.

[Jocko Willink]

You could do better than him. How do you grade your own acting? Because you are in the movie Way of the Warrior Kid.

[Echo Charles]

Oh, in the, in that movie.

[Jocko Willink]

Have you seen yourself in it yet?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

How would you think?

[Echo Charles]

I, I, I'd say, what, like a one to ten scenario? Yeah, my acting, given my role. Ten.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay.

[Echo Charles]

Couldn't have done it.

[Jocko Willink]

What about when you starred in your movie?

[Echo Charles]

Oh, yeah, yeah. 1.

[Jocko Willink]

I thought your acting was better than that. Thought it was pretty good. No, I thought it was pretty good.

[Echo Charles]

Put it this way. I had my moments of maybe five or six, but I'd say, generally speaking.

[Jocko Willink]

I'd have to rewatch it.

[Echo Charles]

It was a learning experience.

[Jocko Willink]

I'd have to rewatch it, try and check it out. So anyways, we got a bunch of books, kids books, adult books. Check them out. Also, Echelon Front, we solve problems through leadership. If you have problems in your world, they are leadership problems. And the way that you solve them is through leadership. We have a bunch of ways to infer this information to you. The lessons that we learned in combat. You can come to one of our events. You can attend one of our events. We have the muster down in Florida, December 7th through the 9th. Every. By the way, these things sell out everything. I'm talking about will sell out. So if you want to go contact, go to echelonfront.com and click on events and you'll see which one you want to go to. The battlefield. We're actually doing new battlefields. It's not Gettysburg. We're doing another Civil War battlefield out on the East Coast. So fresh look, very cool, very interesting. It's kind of, kind of awesome when you like to show up there for the first be like a plank owner or the first one of these. And then of course, we got the women's assembly down there in San Antonio, Texas, September 11th through the 13th. And also we have a consultancy we can embed in your business, do an assessment, figure out where the shortfalls are and help you with your leadership, get your entire business turned around and on the right track. So go to Extreme ownership. Go to echelonfront.com for that. But then if you want, if you want to have some online training to learn these skills of leadership, go to Extreme ownership dot com. Whether you're a frontline individual contributor or whether you're the CEO or chairman of the board of a massive company, there are skills that you need to win. And extreme ownership.com can teach you those skills. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America. Mighty warriors.org also check out Micah finks heroes and horses.org I think I'm going to try and go. They have an event like a, like a dinner or something, like a big fancy dinner. Which fancy for Micah Fink means he's like, what are we going to just campfire. Yeah, campfire. I don't know, but, but it's nice. And try and get up there for that. Heroes and horses.org check it out. And then Jimmy May's organization, beyond the brotherhood.org and if you want to connect with us, check out jocko.com or on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink. Echoes Charles Just don't spend too much time on there. You got better things to do. You know it, I know it. Also thanks to the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps for holding the line around the world and leading from the front. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, Secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for holding the line here at home to keep us safe. And for everyone else out there, here's one more quote from Marine Corps Doctrinal Publication 1 MCDP 1. We know it as war fighting and it says discipline is not just a matter of following orders. It is a matter of self control and self direction. A willingness to do what is right regardless of the circumstances. End quote. That's what we have to do. Self discipline, self control and self direction. You know what you're supposed to do. Regardless of what distractions present themselves, you know what you're supposed to do. So go do it. And that's all I've got for tonight and until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.