501: Bullets To Burning Buildings. With Army Combat Medic Rob Black

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Podcast Episode 501: "Bullets To Burning Buildings" with Army Combat Medic Rob Black

Release Date: August 13, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 501 of the Jocko Podcast, host Jocko Willink, alongside Kerry Helton, welcomes Rob Black, a former Army Combat Medic who served in Ramadi, Iraq. Now a dedicated firefighter and paramedic in California, Rob shares his harrowing experiences in combat, his transition to civilian life, and his ongoing battle with PTSD. The episode delves deep into themes of discipline, leadership, mental health, and the profound impact of military service on personal life.

Rob Black’s Military Journey

Rob Black begins by recounting his deployment to Camp Ramadi in June 2006, where his unit was stationed in a highly volatile environment with constant mortar attacks. He explains the strategic importance of Ramadi and the challenges faced when transitioning authority from one brigade to another.

Notable Quote:

[00:08] Jocko Willink: "Once we arrived at Camp Ramadi in June, everyone could tell we were not in the north anymore."

Rob details his role as a specialized medic embedded with Brigade Recon Troop and Task Unit Bruiser of SEAL Team 3. He highlights the intense camaraderie and the high casualty rates faced by his unit.

Notable Quote:

[00:40] Rob Black: "We were a specialized unit within our brigade. If there was something another unit couldn't do... they called us."

Combat Experiences and Leadership

Rob shares specific combat incidents, including the tragic loss of his comrades Sergeant Story and Sergeant Best, and another medic, Sergeant Quick. These experiences were pivotal, leading to deep psychological scars and survivor's guilt.

Notable Quote:

[28:36] Rob Black: "And that was when I was like, this is for keeps. And you don't realize, like, how much you can have disdain for other people because they just killed your friends."

He emphasizes the crucial role of leadership in survival and maintaining morale during missions. The leadership taught him to "fight like you're already dead," instilling a mindset essential for survival in combat.

Notable Quote:

[19:05] Rob Black: "Group punishment works. Like, if you do not fall in line with what the platoon's doing, like you, you're all going to pay for it."

Transition to Civilian Life

After his service, Rob transitions to a career in firefighting and paramedicine. He discusses the stark contrast between military operations and civilian emergency services, highlighting the unpredictability and constant demand in firefighting.

Notable Quote:

[05:45] Rob Black: "I love it. It's the best job in the world because it's never the same thing."

Despite his successful transition, Rob struggles with PTSD, compounded by the demands of his firefighting job and the haunting memories of war. He candidly discusses his battle with mental health issues, including substance abuse and suicidal thoughts.

Notable Quote:

[85:57] Rob Black: "It took me having a mental breakdown, wanting to end my own life, to get down to the foundation, to like, rebuild the home."

Coping with PTSD and Mental Health

Rob delves into his journey of overcoming PTSD, emphasizing the importance of therapy, honesty, and community support. He shares personal anecdotes about his darkest moments and the pivotal role his wife played in his recovery.

Notable Quote:

[114:29] Jocko Willink: "How do you grab control of that way, that frame that you're going to put on things? Does somebody external have to help you with that?"

Rob explains the strategies he employs to manage his mental health, such as meditation, grounding techniques, and reframing negative thoughts by questioning their validity.

Notable Quote:

[124:20] Rob Black: "It's all about framing. It's like, no, I'm not worthless because I do have a lot to give. I have a purpose. I do deserve to be here."

He urges others facing similar struggles to seek help and break the stigma surrounding mental health, particularly within high-stress professions like the military and firefighting.

Notable Quote:

[130:27] Rob Black: "I hope no one's listening to this and like you're having these thoughts too, like, reach out please, because I promise you it gets better."

Firefighting Career and Leadership

Rob discusses the rigorous schedules and demands of firefighting, comparing them to his military experiences. He highlights the importance of teamwork, continuous training, and maintaining a positive, proactive attitude to handle the unpredictable nature of fires.

Notable Quote:

[134:18] Rob Black: "There were stories of guys that just didn't come back. They're like, yeah, like they left there because you'd go to Kuwait and like, check in all your stuff and fly home. They just never would come back."

He also shares his passion for teaching and mentoring new paramedics and firefighters, emphasizing the significance of passing on knowledge and fostering a supportive community.

Reconnecting and Moving Forward

Towards the end of the episode, Rob reflects on the upcoming 11 AD Ramadi reunion in January 2026, expressing anticipation for reconnecting with former comrades and supporting Gold Star families. Jocko and Rob reiterate the mutual support among military and first responder communities, stressing the importance of remembering fallen heroes and supporting each other in overcoming personal battles.

Notable Quote:

[152:56] Rob Black: "There is hope. Do not give up. You aren't a worthless piece of shit. Like it's okay to be depressed. It's okay to have some bad days, some down days, to have like terrible thoughts."

Conclusion

Episode 501 of the Jocko Podcast provides a raw and honest portrayal of Rob Black's experiences as a combat medic and his subsequent life as a firefighter battling PTSD. The conversation underscores the critical need for mental health awareness, robust support systems, and the enduring bonds formed in the crucible of combat. Rob’s journey from the battleground to civilian life serves as a powerful testament to resilience, leadership, and the unyielding human spirit.

Final Notable Quote:

[160:28] Jocko Willink: "Don't ever give up. There are going to be some high points, there are going to be some low points. They're going to come, they're going to go, but don't. No matter what, don't give up."

Key Takeaways:

• The intense combat experience in Ramadi had a profound impact on Rob’s mental health.
• Transitioning to civilian life as a firefighter provided new challenges and avenues for anxiety.
• Honest communication and seeking help are crucial for managing PTSD and mental health struggles.
• Continuous support from family, friends, and the community plays a vital role in recovery.
• Leadership and teamwork are essential both in military operations and firefighting.

Resources Mentioned:

• Ramadi Reunion 2026: An event for all who served in Ramadi, including spouses and Gold Star families.
• Rob Black’s Instagram: @areohbe1984
• Jocko Fuel: For energy and protein supplements – jockofuel.com
• Origin USA: For tactical apparel – originusa.com
• Echelon Front: Leadership consulting and resources – echelonfront.com
• Extreme Ownership Online Leadership School: extremeownership.com
• America’s Mighty Warriors: Supporting veterans – americasmightywarriors.org
• Heroes and Horses: Healing veterans through equestrian therapy – heroesandhorses.org
• Beyond the Brotherhood: Support for transitioning SEALs – beyondthebrotherhood.org

This episode is a poignant reminder of the enduring effects of combat, the challenges of reintegration into civilian life, and the importance of overcoming stigmas associated with mental health.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is Jocko, podcast number 501 with Kerry Helton and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Kerry.

[Rob Black]

Good evening.

[Jocko Willink]

Once we arrived at Camp Ramadi in June, everyone could tell we were not in the north anymore. Mortar attacks occurred daily and we were located right against the enemy held parts of the city. I said that correctly. The enemy controlled over 75% of the city, from government buildings to hospitals and neighborhoods. However, we held the edge of the east and the west sides of town. We had a transition of authority scheduled around June 2006 from their brigade to ours. We would officially assume control of the operation and they would go home. The plan was set on the night of the turnover of authority. Our brigade would attack the city. We would simply push from east and west and meet in the middle. No matter how long that took, our unit was again attached to another battalion and we were still serving conventional roles. But as a bonus, we would be in a close relationship with Seal Team 3, Task Unit Bruiser, and began planning for our small kill team operations. We were a specialized unit within our brigade. If there was something another unit couldn't do, an area they wouldn't go in, or a sniper they couldn't kill, they called us. We were embedded with the Asymmetric Warfare Group, personnel who helped us develop small kill team tactics, sensitive site exploitation procedures, and mission analysis techniques. We partnered with the Navy SEAL Team Task Unit Bruiser and built lifelong friendships with them as we fought against the enemy. And that right there is a little excerpt from a book called Chop that Up, which is by retired command Sergeant Major Dan Pinion. And Dan was the first sergeant of the Brigade Recon Troop in Ramadi Task Unit Bruiser. We worked alongside them a ton, and they were a small group of well trained, well led soldiers. And they were moved around the battlefield from hot spot to hot spot wherever the fighting was most intense. Whoever needed support, they were sent. And because of this, this troop, the Brigade Recon Troop suffered the highest casualties of any company sized unit in Ramadi. And we covered some of this and we reviewed the book Chop that Shit up with Dan Pinion himself on podcast 482. But before we hit record on that, Dan had brought one of his guys down. One of his buddies. And I had a chance to talk briefly with Rob Black, who was Dan's combat medic in Ramadi, who did one tour, one tour in the army. And that one tour put him on the ground in Ramadi in that, in that Brigade Recon troop. And he got out of the Army. He's now A firefighter. He's a paramedic out here in California. And meeting Rob, I asked him if he wanted to come and share his experiences in the army on a podcast. He was a young frontline medic, first tour in Iraq, and he saw intense combat on a day to day basis in the worst parts of the city against a determined enemy. And thankfully, Rob agreed to come on and talk about his experiences before, during and after his time at war, his successes and his struggles and how he got through them. Rob, thanks for joining us, man. Appreciate it.

[Rob Black]

Hello. Wow, what an intro. Good lord.

[Jocko Willink]

Got the day off from firefighting.

[Rob Black]

Oh, yeah, right on, man. Luckily on vacation this week.

[Jocko Willink]

That's, that's, that's a good deal. Firefighting's kind of cool when it comes to that, right?

[Rob Black]

I love it.

[Jocko Willink]

Is it like that across the whole country? I know in California it's like you work 24 hours, then you get three days off, then you work 24 hours, then you get three. They get time off.

[Rob Black]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

So does everybody do it that way?

[Rob Black]

No. So there's different like schedules and shift patterns. The department I work for, we're currently on an 11 day work period. It's about to go to a possibly 10 day work period and it's kind of funky. So we used to do 72 hour shifts. So it used to be three days on, four days off. And with our union, our collective bargaining, we. It's gotten cut down significantly because like the mental health issues that's been at the.

[Jocko Willink]

Wait, you do 72 hours straight?

[Rob Black]

Yes. So crazy, huh?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

So it's kind of a schedule that was, it's been around since like the 1970s. So now with like modernization, population growth, call volume, they take into account all that data and everything and they're like, okay, that's like kind of way too long. So.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, because you don't get to necessarily sleep, right?

[Rob Black]

Yeah. Depending on where you work. Like, I work primarily in the city of Marino Valley. So it's, it's a pretty large city. I love it there. I've been there since 2014 and was a firefighter there, paramedic there, and now I'm an engineer there. I was fortunate enough to go back there, but yeah, three days long. It, it can be rough at times. Like you really have to like truly depend on each other. Especially when it's like big incident happens, just endless calls. But like that's what's so fun about it, is just it's never ending. And that's what I love about the job. Like in Its totality is that you never go into work and it's the same thing. Like you could have a plan. Like last shift we were doing like we had to redo the stickers on the ladders. And then you go into work and then all of a sudden the tones go off. Then you're on a rolled over car on the freeway, something like that. I love it. It's the best job in the world because it's never the same thing. Because I don't know what I'd do at a desk. It's the.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on.

[Rob Black]

So. Yeah. But the schedule patterns do change depending on department, what their call volume is. And it's crazy that like 65% of the nation is volunteer firefighters too. So in California, we're paid because we live in Southern California, like obviously like a geographical paradise. Right. But the Great Basin causes a lot of these like horrific winds that just drive the, the fire season crazy because it causes those Santa Ana with the wind pressure changes and we just get those volatile winds. We just happen to live in that area of the country where wildfires run crazy. Yeah, we do it. But where else would you rather live though?

[Jocko Willink]

Nowhere.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, cuz you can go to the mountains, the beach, everywhere. I love it down here.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, California is epic. Well, we'll get into some of that firefighting stuff, but let's get a little bit. I want to, I want to just get a little bit of background on you. So where you grew up in California, right?

[Rob Black]

Yes, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

What was that all about?

[Rob Black]

Grew up in Bo Park. So right next to Knott's Berry Farm. That was actually like my first job.

[Jocko Willink]

What'd you do there?

[Rob Black]

I worked at Lucy's Lunchbox and then I worked at Edison in Soak City, like the water park during the summers. And I did food service. This is my very first job. My mom took me over there, dropped me off. I did like a little interview. They're like, oh, you're hired.

[Jocko Willink]

Were you like 16?

[Rob Black]

Yeah, I was 16. So it was really fun. It was good for like the times I met. I actually still talked to a couple of guys that I worked there with, but for a 16 year old, it was great. It was a lot of fun.

[Jocko Willink]

And what'd your parents do?

[Rob Black]

My mom's a bus driver. So she worked for Octa for well over 30 years, I believe, like 33 years. So she like instilled in me like the work ethic. She'd get up three in the morning, go drive her route, come back, pick me up from school. Always there. My dad worked for Food for Less as, like, a distribution. I believe he did, like, truck distribution. And he bounced when I was 8. So one day he came in, said, I'm gonna go live with Uncle Dan for a little bit. I didn't understand what that meant. I have a daughter who's seven now. So now it's starting to hit me. Like, holy crap. Like, that was kind of like the age. Like, her birthday is in a couple months. And my dad came in, said, I'm gonna go live with Uncle Dan for a little bit. And I said, okay, well, I'll see you later. Because I didn't understand what that meant as a child. And he left for a year. Didn't call, didn't write, asked. I asked where he was on my birthday. My mom's like, I don't know. I haven't heard from him. And, like, give all credit to my mom. Like, she kind of shielded us from all of that crap that we didn't need to know.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's legit.

[Rob Black]

Fighting that battle for, like, myself and my sister, like, because I had no idea what was going on. I didn't understand, like, why my dad wasn't around. And little did I know, like, that caused. And we can get into it a little later on. Like, my dad leaving was, like, the seed that was planted that. Why the trauma that I went through in Iraq was, like, so horrific, because it, like, planted the seed of, like, abandonment. So, like, when my friends passed away in the military, like, it just. It dug up all those old feelings from when I was a child and developing, and it caused a lot of problems.

[Jocko Willink]

But when you're eight, you're just like, oh, well, was dad coming back tomorrow?

[Rob Black]

I was playing Game Boy, and I. I knew my Uncle Dan, like, just from holidays and stuff. But, like, we just had this, like, very estranged relationship. Like, I was growing up. He would. They went to. It was like, a vicious court battle. I remember they wanted me and my sister to testify, and my mom stopped it. She's like, absolutely not. Like, she was great. She protected us from everything. It, like, a great role model, instilled the work ethic. But then he would get me and my sister every two weeks. But, like, our. Just our relationship, like, wasn't there. Like, I collected baseball cards and coins when I was a kid. Like, I told you, like, I'm a dork, but, like, I collected, like, baseball cards. And he was still buying me that. When I was, like, 14, I was like, dad, I haven't. I'm not even into this anymore. It was just he went from like, being my father who was always around, to, like, this just man that I now had to go with every two weeks. And it was just. I don't know, we kind of like, grew apart.

[Jocko Willink]

So what were you into in. In like school and whatnot?

[Rob Black]

So I was. Played football at halftime. I was in the band. So I went to school in La Palma, California. I went to Kennedy High School.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on.

[Rob Black]

I was in the drum line. Yeah. So it started in fourth grade. My mom dropped me off one day. I said I wanted to play drums and just took off from there.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you play and did you play like rock and roll as well?

[Rob Black]

Oh, yeah. So I had a drum set. Uh, one of my best friends, Sean, he played guitar. So I'd go on like tabcrawler.com and kind of taught myself how to play guitar and bass. Was I any good? Probably like, absolutely not. I could like, fiddle around and do some power chords. But I was. I was super, super into band.

[Jocko Willink]

What kind of music did you like?

[Rob Black]

So me and my wife just went to Warped Tour this last weekend. So that. That kind of like, encompasses like, the style of music that I really like. Like Rise Against SEOs and Pennywise. We saw Anberlin. They were incredible. Like, just. It was great. State champs, like, just pop punk. I think, like A Day to Remember would be like my ideal band where I'm like the super hard breakdowns, like drop D guitar, like chugging breakdowns, and then super poppy choruses. Like, I Miss her. I love it. That's like the best style. But yeah, so I had a drum set, tried to start a couple bands in high school. It's just trying to get a bunch of 16, 17 year olds to like, get on the same page.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you name any of the bands?

[Rob Black]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

Okay. No, because I had bands growing up and we would change our name like every couple months.

[Rob Black]

What'd you play?

[Jocko Willink]

I played bass guitar and sang and. And none of those very well. In fact, for all of them, pretty bad. I could, you know, you can kind of get away with bass. And probably one of the most controversial things that I've ever done online was I said that if you can play guitar, you can play bass, right? Yeah. I know people freaked out then. But you. Let me, Let me, Let me say this. If you can play guitar, you can play bass. I mean, you can play bass. You not be. Might. Might not be able to play bass. Not like, you know, Geezer Butler or anything, but you can play bass. You can. You can play the bass. Line. You know, it's not that hard to play a simple bass line, which is what I did. I played a simple bass line and sang. And we always, we. I always joke we made more like band T shirts, you know, because we'd always make T shirts for our bands. We made more band T shirts than we made songs. You know, I think I was just really stoked about the idea of just being in a band.

[Rob Black]

So the big question is, did you pluck or did you use a pick?

[Jocko Willink]

Both. Both.

[Rob Black]

Both.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I. It was kind of, you know, it's. You know, I mean, again, I just went and saw Black Sabbath final show ever.

[Rob Black]

Oh.

[Jocko Willink]

And you know, just watching Geezer Butler, who's always been, you know, Black Sabbath's my favorite band of all time, and watching Geezer Butler play, like, you couldn't imagine doing what he's doing with a pick. It just not happening, you know, he's just so freaking insane.

[Rob Black]

Like Flea.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Just.

[Rob Black]

It's incredible what they do.

[Jocko Willink]

But. Yeah, we never, you know, we're gonna.

[Rob Black]

Have to hear some vocals.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, just basically just picture me, you know, yelling like an idiot. That's pretty much the vocals, you know, we had. So my buddy, he had the. Because we went to the studio one time and we. We laid down, we. We made a bunch of songs and he. My buddy Elgin has the master like reel to reel tape tapes, like the four track. I don't know how many track. I think it might have been eight track, but it was a big reel to real thing, old school. And I was like, bro, we got to get like the. We got to get that. We got to get the music off of it. Cuz there was a couple.

[Rob Black]

Oh, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Quite frankly, there's a couple bangers on there. Couple bangers. K Dog, you'd be into it. There was a song that I wrote called Myself Strong, which was pretty legit, but so he brought him to like the most forensic sort of recovery place. And they're like, hey, there's. We can't. We can't get anything off these. So it's all lost. Yeah, it's all lost. Which is very sad.

[Rob Black]

You still remember the songs though. Like you.

[Jocko Willink]

I do. I can. Yeah. Yeah. Between the two of us, we could probably put it. Put them back together.

[Rob Black]

So it's just you and your buddies jamming.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, jamming.

[Rob Black]

Isn't that the best, though? It is like just hanging out and like bringing up like, hey, let's just do a couple covers.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

It starts from there and then you try and make Your own. You're like, wow, this is extremely hard, dude.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm the opposite. Well, so I still, like. I still play. Like, we. I have my buddy's garage. He has, like a little mini studio in his garage. We call it the Hole. And we still go in there and jam.

[Rob Black]

Oh, that's right.

[Jocko Willink]

And the funny thing is is we. We joke because we don't play hardly any covers ever. And we just play 33 minute freaking. Just crazy songs that we only play one time ever.

[Rob Black]

So it's like the Doors.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's like. Yeah, we're like a freaking crazy jam band.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, but that's rad.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's cool.

[Rob Black]

That's cool. Freaking huge stress reliever too.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

Music is great.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

It just takes you into another place.

[Jocko Willink]

You still play drums?

[Rob Black]

No. So, like, I don't know. Like, I just lost interest in it one time, which is weird, right?

[Jocko Willink]

That is weird.

[Rob Black]

So, like I said, you need to.

[Jocko Willink]

Get them back, dude. Especially one of those digital kits can put on headphones.

[Rob Black]

I know. I was. I was just talking to my wife about that. You could buy, like, the digital ones. Do headphones make hardly any noise? Yeah, yeah, I know. I was super into music and then I just kind of, like, lost it. I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

So at what point did you start thinking about joining the military?

[Rob Black]

So I was in high school in 2003. I graduated in June of 2003. And that's when the invasion started. It was March of 03. Correct, when invasion started. So my uncle was a paratrooper in Vietnam. He was in the 173rd Airborne. And so I was talking to him and it just came up. He's like, well, what are you going to do? I was like, God, I don't know. Like, all my buddies are going to go to Cypress College. Like, I think that's a good idea. He's like, I think it's your time.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn.

[Rob Black]

And I was like, oh, like, you have a lot of problems, Uncle Jack. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if I want to be like you, Like. And he's. He's passed away now, but him and I have always had, like a. We had like, a very interesting relationship.

[Jocko Willink]

Is this your. Your mom's brother?

[Rob Black]

My mom's brother. So she would see. She saw him coming home from Vietnam. And when I told her that, hey, I talked to Uncle Jack. He thinks it's a good idea for me to join. And this is when, like, you turn on the TV and it's like the Invasion. The invader. We are invading Iraq. Like, we've reached Baghdad. They're pulling out. Saddam's like, the. What was it? The big statue. Like, the big. She's like, no, go to college. I will pay whatever it costs for you to not go. And then for some reason, I was like, okay, now I'm going. I was like, I need to do this, like, for myself. And especially, like, I told some of my friends and, like, people in high school, I was like, hey, I'm thinking about joining. And they laugh. They're like, you, like, you're gonna go? I'm like, yeah, man. Like, what does that mean? Like, so it was kind of like. I don't know. It kind of, like, inspired me to, like, really want to do it. And I had an interest in medical. I knew I wanted to do something medical. I just didn't know what. Like, I. I watched Saving Private Ryan, and I really, like, connected with, like, Wade. Like, he was the medic with the. With the rangers that went through, and he was. He always seemed, like, the calm, cool, collected, like, took care of everyone. Like, hey, give us a fighting chance. Like, I love that scene. And so when I went around to the recruiters, then I went to the Navy, and they said, we can only promise you. And I'm not sure how the Navy works, but I believe it was a branch. Like, we could offer you, like, medical branch, but whatever is open at that time, then you'd be placed there. Like, if they needed X ray techs at the end of basic training, then you'd go do X ray or dental or whatever. And then the army was like, no, you will be a medicine. I was like, okay, perfect. So that was, like, my decision point. And I met it. I made, like, a little. On my cell phone, like, a little thing, like, two weeks after I graduated high school, I'm gonna make a decision. I'm gonna either join or I'm gonna sign up for college. And I made the decision to talk to my uncle one more time. He showed me all his medals, and then I was kind of like, wow, this is gonna sound really lame, but, like, my dad left, and so I looked up to my uncle, and he's, like, showing me his medals. And he was kind of like he, like, impromptu father figure, in a way, I guess, striving for, like, his approval. And I was like, hey, man, like, will you go with me to the recruiter? Talk to the recruiter? And he was like. I'd never seen him interact with me that way. And I was like, holy Shit. Like, I think I'm getting this. This guy's approval. And I joined, and then I went off to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, for basic and then went to.

[Jocko Willink]

How long. How long did it take you to. Once you signed up? How long did you wait around for before you went?

[Rob Black]

So I signed up in two weeks after high school, so probably early July. And I left October 9th for basic training because they had, like, the delayed entry program.

[Jocko Willink]

Was your mom completely freaking out at this point?

[Rob Black]

Pissed. Pissed. She's like, why are you doing? Like, you know there's a war, right? And I'm like, yeah, but I'm probably not going to go.

[Jocko Willink]

And what did you say you had for siblings?

[Rob Black]

One sister.

[Jocko Willink]

Is she older or younger?

[Rob Black]

Older. She's. Her name's Mary, so she's five years older.

[Jocko Willink]

And what was she saying?

[Rob Black]

She didn't really.

[Jocko Willink]

Whatever.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, she was kind of like, just supportive. She was very supportive.

[Jocko Willink]

And so you go out to Fort Sill. How was boot camp? Were you. Did you regret your decision or were you into it?

[Rob Black]

That was my first time on a plane.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn.

[Rob Black]

I had, like, that's. That was my life in Orange County. Like, I worked at Knott's Berry Farm. Like, my biggest concern was, like, if the froyo machine was broken, like, I. I was like, boysenberry Gang. Like, just. It was. I mean, I was born on third base. I didn't hit a triple. Like, I know that. You know what I mean? Like, I. I was very, very fortunate. Like, the life that I had in, like, and my upbringing. Like, I know that. And so that was my first time getting on a plane ending or, geez, going to Fort Sill. And I remember it was just so flat, like, because that's where the artillery is. Like, that's home of the artillery. Like, king of the battle. It's just flat, windy. And I do remember, like, the. In processing, I was still like, this is kind of weird. I'm not, like, sure what I'm doing. But the second day of, like, boot camp, we were, like, sitting down for the PT test, and we all had our. Like, we had these colored vests on. And I remember sitting down and you had to turn around so you couldn't watch the guy that was going. And you had to put your heads. Your head between your knees so you couldn't watch. So they didn't want anyone seen. And that's when I had that, like, thought of, like, what the hell am I doing? Like, because it is, like, five in the morning, like, and we're out here Doing a PT test. Like, I was just in band, like, not that long ago, you know, like, I could get college paid for. And now, like, they're telling me I get a GI bill so I can go to college after. Like, this is kind of crappy, man. And then, and then it breaks you down so much to realize that you're like nothing. And you have to work as like a team to succeed. Because regardless of what people say, group punishment works. Like, if you do not fall in line with what the platoon's doing, like you there, you're all going to pay for it. And it's great. And then I went to medic school at Fort Sam Houston, Texas. That was 16 weeks.

[Jocko Willink]

And how was that medic school? Now that you're a paramedic, when you look back, how, how, how good was your training? Like in the SEAL teams, the medics in the SEAL teams, they get freaking awesome training. Like, it is outstanding. I want to say is a. It's over a year long.

[Rob Black]

That's insane.

[Jocko Willink]

And they get an incredible amount. They do like, they go into like emergency rooms and work on people. They get live tissue training all the time. It's crazy the amount of training they get. How is your training?

[Rob Black]

So the first eight weeks is national registry EMT training. So you're an EMT basic. So you. Actually, the first eight weeks is like the, in processing of EMT school. So you're getting up to a national standard of training. The second eight weeks is military training, like military medicine. Like how to just all the tips and tricks. You're basically just a trauma machine. So to correlate that on the outside was kind of hard because usually, and for the most part in the military, everyone's healthy. Like, nobody has like seizure problems, heart problems, nothing like that. So when I went to paramedic school, the trauma aspect was easy when I was doing that portion of it. But in paramedicine, that's so like very little of like what you need to know to be a paramedic. It's very sick. Geriatric patients with chest pain, diabetics, seizures, all these like, all the pathophysiology like that. I had to learn all the cardiology, the pharmacology, like, it was all new. So I do remember meeting up with the SEAL team medics a couple times. We just like, looked at each other's aid bags. And I believe one dude was a sniper too. He's like, I'm the medic and the sniper.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we actually, believe it or not, had a couple guys that were medics and snipers.

[Rob Black]

Well, I remember rapping with him, like, during one of the briefings, because we went to one the of your guys's, one of your briefings. We stood on the outside. I was still blown away that you guys were like, on a first name basis. Because I was like, I don't even know why I'm in this room for one. Because we're doing outer cordon for you guys. Like, for you guys to go and do the work. Like, we're just the. We're gonna hang out on the outside while you guys go take care of that. But we were all briefing in there, and you guys are just calling each other by your first name. So, like, calm, cool, collected, and, like, it was just so, like, well orchestrated. It was like the Chick fil a drive through. You guys are just, like, so smooth, like, and operationally sound. I was like, holy crap. Like, I don't know. I was just blown away with, like, how. How smooth it went, like, the briefing down to, like, the entire operation, like, hearing the SEAL teams on the radio. There was no inflection in the voice. It was calm, cool, collected. And I remember, like, I believe we talked about it before, like, cop Falcon. Like, there were three, like, IA injured.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

And the radio traffic was just like, hey, we have three injured. Yeah, we're gonna exfil. And it's like, dude, these. These guys are machines.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yep. We had a good crew. And I'm thinking about the snipers, the sniper medics that you're talking about right now.

[Rob Black]

It was. It was one guy that I talked. I believe he's like an Asian guy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, that's. So that's Johnny Kim. You know, who's.

[Rob Black]

That's like the astronaut. Right. So I saw that. I saw like, a news article. And I'm like, dude, I'm pretty sure. Sure I met that dude.

[Jocko Willink]

You did?

[Rob Black]

Because we were. Him and I were sitting. We're outside, just going over, like, our. The breakout session after the op, the brief. And I was like, hey, what do you carry in that thing? And he was showing me, like, his 8 bag and just rapping with him. And he's. And I looked at his weapon. I'm like, dude, that's a gnarly weapon. He's like, yeah, I'm a sniper too. I'm like, yeah. And I heard, like, now he's a freaking astronaut.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, and this is after he went. He's a doctor too. He went to Harvard medical school.

[Rob Black]

Come on.

[Jocko Willink]

So, yeah, that's Johnny One upper. Huh? Yeah, he's. He's. He's an awesome guy. And actually the other. The one of the other snipers in that platoon was also a corpsman. It was Kevin Lace Daubers, his nickname. But he was another medic sniper, which is definitely a weird.

[Rob Black]

That's crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a little bit rare. You know, it doesn't happen a lot. The fact that we, first of all, we had 13 snipers in my task unit, which was a lot of. That's normally, like, maybe you'd have five or six maybe, but we had 13. It was again, like, when you have corpsmen that are snipers, two of your medics are snipers. That's just.

[Rob Black]

That's insane.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, just random overkill. But. So when you're in medic school going rewinding a little bit back to going to medic school, what do you. You. Do you feel like you got pretty good training there?

[Rob Black]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

So you were ready to rock.

[Rob Black]

You're basically like just a trauma machine. So one of, like, the final drills is you have to be able to treat four critical patients with one aid bag. And it's kind of cool. Like, they. They set up, like, loud speakers, and I have to go in. They have, like, flashing lights, is simulating like a battlefield. And then you have to, like, crawl over to, like, the casualties, assess them like tourniquets, bleeding control, say, like, what your interventions would be. And you have to treat four critically wounded patients to pass. So I thought it was really good. Yeah, the. The training that I got. And then I got orders to go to Friedberg, Germany. That's where Elvis was stationed.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, that's right.

[Rob Black]

He was in the military Ray Barracks.

[Jocko Willink]

There you go. Freaking legit. So you show up. How's it when you show up there?

[Rob Black]

Oh, it's good. I was actually put in the 501st Forward Support Battalion because the Brigade Reconnaissance does not have a medic assigned to them until they deploy. So I was actually in an aid station unit until we deployed.

[Jocko Willink]

And did they tell you, hey, once we deploy, you're going to go into recon trip?

[Rob Black]

No. So that was kind of a funny story. We did all this training, like, up until, like, we knew we were going because 1st Armored Division deployed in 2003 in the initial. They came back in 2004. So we were. We were slated to go back in 2006. So we knew we were going in January of 06. I was in the support battalion. So all of my training was geared towards, like, casualty receiving.

[Jocko Willink]

So, like, being in Charlie Med.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, Charlie. So I was in Charlie Med. So in a way, it worked out to my benefit because I knew all the Doctors, all the PAs. I still keep in contact with some of those people, but I was in Charlie Med. And before we deployed, I did a couple operations with Dan and to for the training. And when BRT requested a medic, they requested me. So I got called into my CO's office. They're like, hey, you're being reassigned. You have orders to go with brt. And this was, like, right before the deployment. So I got those orders before we went on two weeks of leave before we were going to deploy. So I got the orders, did Christmas, and we were deploying, like, two weeks after January.

[Jocko Willink]

So. So what. How were you. How did you get caught up on, like, your soldiering skills?

[Rob Black]

I didn't. So that's what. That's what was wild is I did a couple, like, just. I was attached as the medic to brigade reconnaissance for some, like, training stuff. But then when I got assigned to him, I was kind of like, on the outside, I'm like, what do you guys do here? Like, what's a Calvary Scout? Like, So I was, like, way behind the learning curve. So I looked up, like, their job description, what they actually do. I'm telling you, like, I was, like, way behind. And little did I know that they'd be. They were on, like, the forefront of, like, hey, we, like, go into, like, gnarly shit. It was a huge culture shock. Not only, like, fitting in with all those guys, because I went from being in platoons and a company, like, CO ed so like, with women. And then I got to BRT and I had. I remembered, like, doing pt. Like, one of the first times I had dirt on my pants, I just got lit up by the exo. He's like, I don't know who the. You think you are. I don't know. We don't do that around here. Like, your stuff will be clean and you'll be wired tight. I'm like, okay, this is this game time. Like, needs to be wired tight. So I kind of got, like, a little free pass because I was a medic. But, yeah, I. I learned. I tried to learn their job to the best of my ability. The guys were great on, like, training. Every time they were doing training, I'd jump in, be like, hey, like, what are you guys doing? I. They noticed that. So, like, later on in the deployment, when guys were going home on leave, like, they had me be a driver. And this was when we Got there, we went, we landed in Talafar and.

[Jocko Willink]

Then that's where you guys kicked off deployment, was in Talar.

[Rob Black]

That's what a.

[Jocko Willink]

A little background. So Talafar, what was it the third ACR had been up there with. With Colonel at the time, McMaster, HR McMaster. And he. They had used the counterinsurgency strategy up in Talafar and it had worked really well. And so this brigade that was up there, that took their place, the one one ad, when they got up there, there was not a lot going on in a good way because what McMaster and third ACR had done had settled out the insurgency. And that then freed up that the 11 AD to go to the other area that needed to be suppressed, which was Ramadi.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, we were up there for I think approximately four months. And then we got the order to start con. We had pack everything up and we're going to Ramadi.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you feel like you got like a little more up to speed while you're up there as far as your soldiering skills?

[Rob Black]

It gave me that. That time that I needed to like, learn who they are, what they did, how they operate. Like, this is what a cavalry scout is and this is what we need from you. Like, because it being the medic, you're kind of like those extra hands if need be. But also, like, I wanted them to rely on me. Like, I want. I didn't want to just be an observer. Like, I wanted to be part of like the team.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

Because I wanted to help as well. So it gave me that time to watch their training go through. Like, what they do, what they actually do, like everything. Radios, mapping, all of that. Like, so it gave me that time to kind of step up and kind of learned their job in a way.

[Jocko Willink]

And Dan Pinion, like, you know, he was on the podcast, what was it, a couple months ago, and. And you see Dan Pinion, you know, he looks like a. I mean, he, he looks like a normal guy now, you know, I mean, he's just a normal guy. Like, we all look like normal guys and he looks like a normal guy, bro. Back in the day, like when he, dude, he was a freaking beast.

[Rob Black]

Hard ass.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, he was. He was kind of like a, A. What do they call it? They call it central casting. Like, he was straight out of central casting for like first Platoon First Sergeant or Troop first Sergeant. He was just a big stud, like, angry looking dude and just a beast. And that's. That was your. That was your leader?

[Rob Black]

Yes, absolutely. So that's what. Yeah, Very well said. I'm not even sure what to say to that. But, yeah, like, that was our leader, and it was due to. Due to the leader and, like, not trying to jump forward too much. But, like, the guys I was with, like, Sergeant Marco, Sergeant Gonzalez, Sergeant Garcia, like, that whole leadership core, like, kept us alive because I. When. When we got orders to go to Iraq, I. I got bought into that, like, hearts and minds. Like, we're going over there to, like, you know, help people and being a medical. Be like, oh, yeah, I can get to, like, help the community and do, like, community medicine. And those guys had already deployed. Like, they've been there, done that. I believe Sergeant Marco, he was in one of the ACRs that, like, pushed up, like, guys on their second deployment. And I was kind of, like, naive to the whole thing. And I remember sitting there one night, we would have to pull guard duty and biage, and that's where we were stationed, was biage, Iraq. It was, like, just on the outer skirts near the Syrian border. We do missions to the Syrian border to see if they were bringing arms in or anything like that, but nothing ever happened more than, like, a couple mortar attacks. And I was just, like, dying to get in combat because you're hearing these stories of, like, oh, dude, when we were in the. And this. My medic's so good. The medic that I had before did this. The medic before, like, did that. And I'm like, dude, I can do that too. Like, you know what I mean? Like, jealous girlfriend. Like, dude, hey, guys, like, I'm right here. And you never. You never can totally prepare for combat, like, because instinctually, like, the first time I was ever shot, I didn't even know what happened because I. I was standing on a wall. A cop, Grant. I was standing on a wall, and a couple shots hit, like, the cinder block and brick wall in front of me, and it shot up all the debris, and I dropped to the ground, just. And this is like, my brain is off. I have no clue what's going on. I dropped down, and Sergeant Gonzalez ran over to me. He's like, where are you hit at? Because he thought I got shot because I dropped down and I said, what's happening? He's like, we're getting shot at. Are you hit? And I said, I think I'm good. And he checked me me. He's like, fire back. I remember I raised my rifle up. I was like, I don't see anything. He's like, just fire at anything. And I just shot at a building. Like, I chose a building. I'm like, boom, boom. And then I was like, oh. Like, I just got shot at. Like, my brain just could not process what was happening.

[Jocko Willink]

How old are you at this point?

[Rob Black]

I was, I just turned 21. Like, I, I had my 21st birthday two weeks before we deployed.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

So, like, I was home on leave for like Christmas leave, and then 21 years old, like, we got shipped out. So that was like at cop Grant got shot. I was like, dude, I have no clue. And then after that, you're like, kind of good. You're like, oh. Like, that's what rounds sound like when they're being shot at you. And like, what movie is it? Like, the Crack and the Whiz? Like, yeah, the crack is like super close. The whiz means it's like near you. And you get used to, like, hearing it. You're like, oh, that's not even close to us. That's not even near us. But like, you, you never know how you're going to react or what you're going to do or even prepare to be shot at or even fire back. Like, it's, it's, it's a life altering experience.

[Jocko Willink]

When you. So when you rolled down from Tal Afar down to Ramadi, what was it like? Was it like April or May or something like that?

[Rob Black]

I believe it was maybe.

[Jocko Willink]

And you know, like, you know, you've been mortared a few times up there, but nothing, Nothing crazy. How, at what point did you recognize, like, the seriousness of Ramadi versus the other battlefield?

[Rob Black]

I was so naive. Like, we would do missions and do you remember those, like, white apartments in Ramadi? They call them like the Chinese apartments. So I remember we would, like, drive by and like, get a couple pop shots or anything like that. Um, and we were getting hit by IEDs, like, quite, quite frequently, but they were never, like, hurting anyone. Like, it'd be like small bits of shrapnel. And then we got orders to keep going up and down Route Gremlin, which neighbored the train station and the university. So when it got to Its worst was August 4th. So that's when we were doing, I believe it was civil affairs. And I'm sure Dan will correct me, like, if I'm wrong, but we were doing civil affairs on another town over, and White Platoon was heading back in and near the university and near the train station, White Platoon got hit. So in the book it explains that, like, it's an S curve right in the road where Sergeant Story and Sergeant Best got hit. And it Was also our interpreter who passed away as well, and Mike Hayes, who got thrown from the vehicle to say that the road is an S curve. It's a little more dynamic than that because it's a road that's going from a raised like hill. And the left turn is inclusive in that S turn. So when they planted that ied, it was a command detonated IED that ran into the train station. They were making a left hand turn on an Esther. So it already, like the Humvee was already kind of tilted. And I remember we heard this like, loud explosion because we were, we were pretty far away. This loud explosion, I believe.

[Jocko Willink]

Were you. Were you on base or were you in town?

[Rob Black]

No, I was in town. So white and red pl. We were both doing missions out at the same time, just in different locations. But we were all. I believe we were somewhere near the university. And then white platinum, we heard the calls for white platoon. Like, hey, we've been hit. We drive over there. I grabbed all my. We're driving. You could see the column building, like just a black column of something burning. I'm like, what the is that? Like, and like, I'm saying, like, naivety, like, you don't know what you don't know. And before it was like, oh, they got hit by an id. Like, everyone will probably be okay because that's what's happened before. Like patterns repeat themselves. You know what I mean? So we pull up, we pull outside security, we get out. And the vehicle was on its side. I remember that. I believe Doc Herit already took Hayes. I believe he was gone. Or, or they might have still been there. And they said, hey, story and best are either inside or they got thrown. And I remember I walked around the outside of the vehicle and there was a hole blown in the underside of the vehicle that was larger than the turret. So that hole that was blown in the vehicle reached all four tires. And I remember, like looking through it. I was like, dude, I can see through that thing. And so me and, me and one other guy, like, I grabbed my aid bag and I remember walking through a field, like near the train station because we were looking for him and I, we were calling out to their. Their names, like, hey, you know, Clint, where are these guys? And we were looking at each other. And then someone told me, like, they're still in the vehicle. And I was like, no, like, there's nothing left of the vehicle. What do you mean they're still in the vehicle? And it's just this, like, this unreal, like, thought that, that they're gone. Like, what do you mean they're still in there? Like, they were just here. Like, they were just playing poker a couple nights ago. Like, those are your boys. And the interpreter was in there, too, when it hit me that it was like, this is. This is, like, the real deal is we would carry body bags on our vehicle. And they told me to go get the body bags, and I was like, what the. Like, what the? Like, I put them in there. Like, so I was the driver, so I had to inventory everything. I knew where everything was on that piece of equipment, grab the body bag. And I think Sergeant Marsh walked over with an arm. It was the interpreter's arm. Just ain't an arm. He's like, open the bag. I unzipped it, and he, like, dropped it in. And he's like, all right, take that over there, or whatever. And I was like, dude, what. Where am I? Like, what the Am I in right now? And that's when I was like, this is for keeps. And you don't realize, like, how much you can have disdain for other people because they just killed your friends. Does that make sense? I remember getting back to our tents, and I just broke down crying because I was like, what did we miss? Because we drove over that road multiple times that day. And how long has it been there? It was a command detonated ied. They had to have dug it up. They've had to disturb the road in some way. They laid wire into the train station and detonated it. How did we all miss that? Like, it's just the guilt that you carry with. Like, dude, maybe I. Maybe I should have saw it when I was driving, because I drove by it on my left side, getting out to the village that we were in. Like, it. It's unacceptable. And I don't know. I. I think about that and being over there every single day of my life. Like, it's. It's terrible. Like, it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, we were. You know, speaking of Johnny Kim, we were. He was not only a sniper, not only a medic, but he would also do lead nav in our. In the Humvees, and he'd be in, like, the front vehicle in the nav position, and we were going across the bridge. ECP3, I think, drove across that bridge. We're gonna go driving our vehicles to COP Falcon, but we went through Tamima to get there, and we're driving slowly, you know, like, really trying to be careful, looking for pressure plates and, you know, whatever. What do they call us? Crush wires and stuff like that, as opposed to looking for command debt stuff. But we're looking, you know, we're driving and I'm in vehicle too, you know, because normally driving vehicle too. And so I'm just sitting there and all of a sudden, like, the vehicle stop. And Johnny like, thought he saw something and he like, guys get out with white lights to try and look around and find the what. We don't think it's anything. So we drive, we continue to cop Falcon. And then like an hour later, the. The IED guys like find like a triple stack there. So. So we found it, stopped, looked at it, or like, looked for it and decided it wasn't anything and just drove over it. Like, like no factor. So, yeah, the randomness of combat is very strange. And that's a good case. You know, you're saying you guys drove by that all day long and that probably, you know, like you said, those guys take time, put stuff in there and they'll leave it in there for days, if not weeks, if not months, just waiting for the right time when they can think they can get away with it. So for the earth to have been disturbed three weeks ago, you're not going to see that anymore. You know, it's like. And they did a good job. They would, you know, they would like put dust and sweep around it and, you know, put trash on it, whatever. Like, you wouldn't be able to tell.

[Rob Black]

EOD showed us one time a pressure plate that I thought was like, really ingenious. Like, say what you will about them, but they were pretty, pretty intelligent. Like the handsaw blades. They would take two of those and just space it with cardboard and connect the, the two wires to it. So those two saw blades would never touch because of the cardboard. But you drive a Humvee tire over it, it's going to connect those two saw blades and talk about like, efficient, cheap. And you could keep redoing it over and over and over, but just with just two saw blades running over an ied, like, I don't know, it was just. It was wild.

[Jocko Willink]

So we fast forward a little bit. Tell. Tell me a little bit about what the Brigade Recon Troop was doing. And I'll start by saying this. It was almost the exact same thing that my seals were doing, which is going out setting up Overwatch positions in areas where the enemy was expected to be. The enemy had been. We thought the enemy might be traversing through. There was going to be other operations that were taking place where Overwatch was needed. You know, we were. And oftentimes we work together, mutually supporting Each other. But what was like kind of just talk like what a day to day getting spun up for an operation, Briefing the operation, going out and doing it. What was it like for you?

[Rob Black]

So we would always it depending on what we were getting. A lot of times we'd get route clearance once a month we got to do going to buy up like the Baghdad International Airport to pick up the recruits for the Iraqi army or the police force. And then we would do, we would convoy them out there and then come back. We were stoked because we got to get Burger King and Cinnabon and all. The Biop had everything, man. They had that little bazaar where you could buy all the new movies and everything. Yeah. For like five bucks. Talk them down to like four. Like man, give me three of them and I'll give you ten bucks.

[Jocko Willink]

Cinnabon. Yeah.

[Rob Black]

Oh. So how good was it? And it was like cheap McDonald's. Like, where's this going from? But we were just stoked to get out of there. The but like then we started doing like the small kill team stuff and, and it was, we did it before but like I said, like nothing ever really happened. And it was a, it was a huge learning curve like for me as well, like what do I do on these things? Because I'd always be in the back like while guys would like breach doors going in, taking over the buildings. And more than likely we were taking over two at a time. Because for a small kill team, you want two positions it if so one can watch the other one. That way it's a little bit easier. So we get the brief. Let it be known like enemy contact is either imminent, highly likely. I always worried about like moon illumination because no joke over there, like, like you can see everything if the moon is bright because there's no pollution, no smog, no nothing. It's just the hum of everyone's personal generators outside. So the illumination played a big factor in everything.

[Jocko Willink]

The other thing that was interesting about you guys was you might be supporting any battalion that was there. You know, you guys supported the Marine sometimes, which was 3, 8 and then 1 6. You guys supported the 135, the 137. And you know, Colonel McFarland, he was putting you guys, you know, wherever there was friction, wherever there was things going on, he would do the same thing with us. And know sometimes we would work together, sometimes there was multiple things to support. And it's weird, you know, on, on August 2nd, you know, I had Colonel Dean, who was a commander of the 135 on the podcast. And, you know, on August 2nd, that's what. That's when Mark Lee was killed and Ryan Jobe was badly wounded. And I had. I had forgotten that on that day where we were conducting that operation with the 137 in downtown Baghdad, I had a whole nother element of seals that were. With the 135 at the university, doing a big, massive clearance at the university. And it just, you know, like, it was a pretty mellow operation in relatively relative to what operations could be like and definitely relative to what was happening in downtown with the 137. But I had forgotten, like, oh, yeah, we were there and had a whole support element, had in. Had SEAL intel guys out there, like, doing interrogations and whatnot. And so, you know, depending on what was going on in the city, my seals were getting moved around, and we were moving around to support what was happening, and then you guys were doing literally the exact same thing. And if it was a big enough operation, they'd throw. You know, we. We'd both have elements out there in various overwatch positions. I might have two or three, you might have one, two, or three. And we'd be mutually supporting all ourselves and then mutually supporting each other.

[Rob Black]

How crazy is that? That, like, all that happened, what, 19 years ago, and now we're sitting here. We're sitting here talking about it, and we didn't even know it. Being in the same room together, I. It's wild. It's wild how things work out. And I don't know. I truly do believe that, like, things happen for a reason, but there really was, like, no rhyme or reason. It was, like, whatever job needed to get done, they'd call us. Whether it was route clearance support. I hated support.

[Jocko Willink]

You guys were doing route clearance. What were you doing?

[Rob Black]

We'd get attached to the engineers, and they would go out with, like, the buffaloes and just so you. You'd be, like the Humvees behind, literally looking for mines. Yeah, that was for igs. Like, I would rather walk through downtown Ramadi without an IBA 100, then drive anywhere. I'll walk. I don't care. I don't want to drive this thing. Like, it's terrifying because, like, they couldn't shoot anyway. Like, they'd shoot at you, and it was always, like, just pop shots or whatever. But driving was the most terrifying. I always thought, like, route clearance. Like, this is. This is it. Like, this is where we're. We're gonna get hit.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. My first time going in Buffalo, which was the ied vehicles, man. I was just catching a ride from one side of Ramadi to the other, but they're still going to do their job. And it's really weird because, you know when you're, when you're out on patrol, whether you're in a Humvee or whether you're on foot, you are actively like patrolling. Right. You're checking your field of fire, you're scanning, you're thinking you're gonna get blown up. You're looking at the ground.

[Rob Black]

If I was, if I was a dude, where would I be hiding?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, exactly. You're going through all that stuff. And so here I am in a Buffalo and I'm literally just a passenger.

[Rob Black]

You're trapped.

[Jocko Willink]

And by the way, they're, they're high up, they got big ass windows, tilts.

[Rob Black]

Over like, what are you guys doing?

[Jocko Willink]

And, and it's air conditioned. So I'm sitting in this thing for the first time and I was like, it was really kind of. I felt like the way like a sightseeing person must feel when they go on, like you're on a train double Duck decker bus through London and you're just looking around. That's what it felt like.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, and of course, the whole time you can still get blown up.

[Rob Black]

Oh, for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

Those guys, you know the heroics of those route clearance guys, day after day.

[Rob Black]

Multiple times a day.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And they would get hit with an ied, which meant the IED was now cleared and they would continue on the mission.

[Rob Black]

Nuts.

[Jocko Willink]

It was freaking nuts. So what you're talking about, when you guys would, when you guys would do route clearance, all you're doing is getting in your Humvees and following the freaking buffalo.

[Rob Black]

Yeah. We're driving a coffin. Like, we're just waiting because we were just providing support for them.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

Like if some shit happened, we'd break off and go, go attack the element that attacked them so that way they could finish their mission. I don't know how. Those dudes, like, big props to the engineers and all those guys that did route clearance every day, like, God bless you. Like that. Those guys, man. And like, talk about a scary job. But I don't know, I tell people that all the time I'd rather walk naked through Ramadi than drive. Yeah. Any day. Because it was terrifying.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. That. Yeah. But I'm thinking for you guys, that's just one of the rotating missions that you did was, oh, by way you're going to go do.

[Rob Black]

It was never like a set. We'd get like durations of like set schedules. Like we had to go to COP grant for two weeks. It, it seemed to be like shorter durations of missions or hey, come up here. We're going to go do a small kill team. We're going to support this element. This element, like it was always like kind of random, which I kind of dug. Cuz it was never the same thing over and over. Which kind of like maybe that's why I like firefighting because it's never the same thing over and over.

[Jocko Willink]

And, and, and you came to my base one time for a briefing. That must have been crazy because also I was really strict with uniforms with my guys when they left my compound, but if they were in my compound, I didn't care. Like you want to wear flip flops and you know, surf shorts and a T shirt, whatever. Just when you go out and you interact with the conventional forces like you will be in a squared away uniform. Well, in a squared away uniform as a SEAL can put on, which is not that squared away. But you come down there and you were, you like damn, this seems pretty laid back. What was your impression?

[Rob Black]

I was shocked. Like I was telling you earlier, like first name bases, like that does not happen in the regular army. Like you address everyone no matter how close you are, like by rank and like, I don't know, it was just, I was blown away but like, just operationally. But I believe like to survive you need to be that close knit because during combat it comes down to like it's not right or wrong, it's like the dude to your left and your right. Like you're not fighting, you're not fighting for any political agenda. If you're on the right side of history. No, like you're fighting to get home. Like it gets to a point where you're like, dude, if I, if I don't, like Sergeant Gonzalez would always say like fight like you're already dead because we are going to die here like if you don't perform. And the worst thing, the worst action is inaction. Like especially when you're taking fire if, if anything happens, just not being able to decide what to do. And I learned that early on, like from the leadership and the mentorship of them. But like seeing how you guys operated, it was obviously intimidating. Like you tell anyone like hey, we're gonna go to the SEAL base and of course we're all like, you guys better have your like washed clean. Like they're gonna be looking at us because like we're going to be doing outer cordon security for, for these guys, like so they need to be able to rely on us is intimidating. I believe our sniper, David Cantor, I believe he caught on one of the small kill teams, like shot a dude that was like approaching your position with a couple grenades and you guys gave him a coin.

[Jocko Willink]

Hell yeah.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, it was, I don't know, gnarly.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, you, you lost guys those the story and best. August 4th and then not even a couple weeks later you guys had Sergeant Quick get killed.

[Rob Black]

It was 19th.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

Of August. So we were with story and Best. Like we were. We were in the city, we were already out with Quick. We got woken up and we're told. Or we were in the. We were in our tents and we got brought in and we were told that like Quick got hit. Why platoons in some like. And we need to do the qrf like Quick Reaction Force, like that's our dudes. Like everyone just ran out as quick as they could and got in our Humvees and just waited and we were idle because they already exfil them back to the camp. And then that's when we were told like story didn't make it. There were a couple other guys that were wounded. But what was really weird about that, that operation was it. It flip flopped like red, white, red, white. So we did that same mission the day before and Sergeant Quick, like he and I had like a very interesting like relationship. So when we were in Kuwait one time I left the quarters without my cover and I was with one of like I was with one of my buddies because you always had to travel in pairs. And he's like, hey, where's your fucking cover? And I think I was just going to take a piss or something. Like it was like super short, gonna go right there and come right back. And I told him, I was like, I forgot it. There's no excuse Sergeant. And he's like, I fucking like that answer. And I said it's not gonna happen again. So like ever since then, like him and I had like a pretty cool relationship. We would joke around a lot and it was funny when, when I was going out on the mission first and he's like, hey black, don't let anything happen to yourself. I don't know what I do or I don't know what I do with myself. If anything thing happen to you, something to that extent, I'm paraphrasing. So when I saw him the next day and I said, hey, don't let anything happen. I don't know what I do with myself without you just joking. And that was the last words I ever said to that man. So, like, we got word that, like, he passed away. And I think I was a newly promoted corporal, and in the army, it's kind of a lateral E4 position. Like, if you show that you're showing signs of, like, leadership, they can laterally promote you. And I was like, a newly promoted corporal. And there. And I promise there's a point to this story. So after Sergeant Quick passed away, they called all NCOs to the talk. And this was Dan. Like, Dan pulled us up there, and I'm not sure if he mentioned it or anything, but he had. He called all of us into his room. And in the talk, it was like, the radio room. He had his own room. And he called us all in there. Shut the door. And do you remember they issued us those stupid side plates. Like, and they were like, hey, this is like, this new thing. And I was like, dude, I already got birthing hips. Like, I can't wear side plates. I can't be wider than I already am. And so I remember wearing the side plates. He called us in there and under his bed, he pulled it out and threw it in the center of the room. And it was Sergeant Quick's iba. So. And that's. That's the correct term for it, right? The iba. Trying to remember. And it was after he'd been hit with grenades. So, like, you could imagine, like, him placing that in the center of the room. And he said, his blood is on all of your hands. He's like, what's missing? And one guy, I don't even know who it was, he's like, his side plates, he's like, would he have lived with his side plates? And. Probably not. He's like, but you guys need to check each other to make sure. You guys are wearing your. This is the last time I'm ever going to say it. And that the image is just, like, burned into my brain. Like, he just died and you're throwing his gear on the ground. And it's taken years to, like, try and realize, like, and to try and understand why he did something. So, like. Like, shock value, I guess. But it instilled that, like, this is life or death. Like, you guys need to check each other. If you get lackadaisical on. On the protective equipment that we wear, it will kill you. And it worked.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

Like, man, that was, like, so brutal and horrific. Like, I don't know, it was just. That was tough.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

Because I remember I was. I was like, brand new to this NCO thing. Like, why am I in here and seeing that, I was like, man, like, it's brutal.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah. Those side sappy plates.

[Rob Black]

Oh, my God.

[Jocko Willink]

I remember they actually brought a truckload of them down to Cop Falcon. So we're at Cop Falcon, and they brought a truckload of them down to COP Falcon and started handing them out.

[Rob Black]

Yeah. I was like, what the is this? Like, we're already heavy enough. Like, it's already hard enough to move. It's already hard enough to get around. I remember they gave us. There was, like, a prototype for. For. It was a fan. It was like this cylindrical device that you could put on the back of your iba. And when it would blow air, it was just a fan that would blow air up your plate. They're like, hey, you're gonna try this out. Like, whose uncle is making money off of this thing? Like, right now, selling this contract to the government.

[Jocko Willink]

And then I'd see, like. Like, some gunner on a 1/3 on a 113 or. And, dude, they would have every piece of body armor that you could put on. The collar thing, Remember the shoulder thing?

[Rob Black]

Oh, my God, the shoulder pads, the.

[Jocko Willink]

The cut. Like, the groin protector.

[Rob Black]

So, like, the gunners would have to wear all that stuff. Like, it. Like, if you were driving, you had to. And, like, the side plates were a. Like, trying to drive with those things, especially, like, the radio in the way, and this is a freaking pain in the ass. It was so much gear, and it was so freaking hot as hell heavy.

[Jocko Willink]

And your op tempo talk, you know, you're talking about red going out, white going out. Who were you? Which one were you in?

[Rob Black]

I was ready.

[Jocko Willink]

And then how often are you going out?

[Rob Black]

Depending on the mission. So sometimes we'd go out together. And then if it was a mission, like route clearance, then we'd, like, switch off. Or if it was like a small kill team, like, just for instance, like that small kill team, we went first, white went second. Or however it played out, it was all dependent on, like, what the. What the leader's intent was for that mission and what the operation needed.

[Jocko Willink]

And then you were always on qrf.

[Rob Black]

Oh, yeah, if they were out, then we were always on qrf.

[Jocko Willink]

Standing by to go.

[Rob Black]

Standing by to go. One minute you had to be ready to go, engines on, ready to take orders. So always we were just in our tents all day. Especially if our own dudes were out, like we were. Some guys would just hang out at the Humvees, like, when our dudes were out. Just play cards.

[Jocko Willink]

It's, you know, I, when I was a kid, I never pictured a war to be like, it's, it's 50ft away, you know what I mean? Like, it's, we're here, we're on a base, we're playing cards or we're eating chow or whatever, but in three minutes you can be like in a complete and utter gun show. Yeah.

[Rob Black]

Just getting shot where you don't even know where it's coming from. You're like, where the is that? Like, where are we getting shot at from? It's just wild because it, at the they. And they'd always fire a couple shots, then run. So like by the time where you even could like look to see where it was coming from, like, oh, they're gone. Like very rarely was it like they're going to shoot and stay there because they know that we're going to freaking annihilate them. Like their guns aren't zeroed or especially like I remember a Bradley one time locked onto a window and just driving like 50 miles an hour. Just its barrel followed and just destroyed that window. How fast it could go and how ferocious it was. Like, it was gnarly.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Bradley's are freaking legit.

[Rob Black]

Crazy, crazy fast.

[Jocko Willink]

So in, in the book, you know, Dan talks about David Dietrich and he was kind of like a kid that was sort of struggling to, to make it. And he, he finally gets to go out on an operation. This is December 29th. He finally gets to go out in. And you know, Dan's sort of like is saying, hey, you know, fix your headgear. I forget it was his headgear is I pro or something. And, and Dietrich like gives him a big hug and like, hey, this is the best day of my life. Or something along those lines. Again, I'm paraphrasing. But you know, the kid was totally fired up because he wanted to be a soldier. He wanted to go to combat. He had worked his ass off. You guys had been training him and trying to get him up to speed. And finally he's up to speed.

[Rob Black]

Speed.

[Jocko Willink]

He goes out and he ends up getting killed. It would. Now, were you the medic, you were the medic on that operation?

[Rob Black]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

What do you, what do you remember about it?

[Rob Black]

Just for like a little context of that. We were supposed to go home in December.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

Because we were. It was a 12 month order. So we got there in January. They were trying to get us home by Christmas. Like that was the rumor. Like the rumor mill was always like, hey, they're trying to get us home by Christmas. Christmas, third ID should be here. So they should relieve us. If not, like, first thing in January. And I forget exactly when I want to say it was around, like, Thanksgiving. And credit to our officers because, like, they. They always said, like, we're never going to hide anything from you guys. And as soon as they knew, they told us. They're like, hey, we're extended for up to three months. I remember calling my mom. I'm like, hey. And she thought I was in an aid station anyway. Like, she had no clue what I was doing. And I remember calling her. I'm like, hey, they're keeping us here. Because it was like John McCain wanted the 20,000 troop boost in 2007, so we had to stay. So this is like, now we've been through all this combat. Like, we've lost friends. Guys have, like, literally lost body parts. Like, we were just so, like, tattered. I believe one out of every three of us got a Purple Heart. Like, we were just, like, trying to get by. And then in November, it's like, hey, we're not going home. It's like, okay. So every mission after that, you're like, we should be home by now. Like, this is like, why are we going on these missions? And so.

[Jocko Willink]

And by the way, you know, when I had General McFarland on here, I forget the exact numbers, but from, like, the time you were extended, the one one ad lost, like, another 30 soldiers. You know, it wasn't like, oh, we're extended. We have to stay longer. It's like, no, we're extended. We have to stay longer. And we're going to continue to have to fight every single day against a determined enemy.

[Rob Black]

Oh, wait, the weather cooled off. They wanted to kill us. It wasn't a hundred. And outside to where they, like, were miserable, too. Like, when it cools down, like, they want to get us, like, and they'll wait. They waited for us. And. And on December 29th, it was. We went to COP Firecracker to support the Marines. We pulled up into their AO and we got this small kill team mission to where we would take over two buildings. We infilled at night, as we always did. Infilled at night. And then did our operation throughout the night. Got everything set up. And I remember I was laying down, and then all of a sudden I. I heard over the radio. Like, we heard the shot. So everyone's up, and we're like, oh, fuck. And you kind of, like, sit there. Cause it was just a single shot, and it's like, okay, like, when's it going to start? Like, like, you know, just all hell breaking loose. I remember I sat up and I'm like, okay, like, let's wait and see, like, how this plays out. Listen to radio traffic and then go from there. I sat up and I forget who was on the radio. They're like, hey, we need black over here now. Like, this is bad. So the way it worked is we had two, we had the two houses, but you had to go outside of the house and turn a corner to get to the other one. So I was in house, let's say A and Dietrich was shot in house B. Well, we would go downstairs and every time we infilled at night, we'd take those like big ass zip ties that they'd give us to like, use his handcuffs if we took any prisoners or anything. We just zip tied the door like completely shut. And at this time, like, we're still not hearing anything, nothing's going on. But they were saying that like one of, one of the guys is hit and we didn't know who it was. It's so like, I remember like cutting, like, I think it was Sergeant Gonzalez or Sergeant Beal was like cutting the zip ties off the door. I'm like, hurry up. Like, oh my gosh, like, get those things off. Like, we need to get to our dude. And we knew it was a right and a right so we needed to get out. I was in the middle because they're like, you get in the middle like, so we can watch like, because you're not, like, you're the medic, like, we need to get you over there. So I got in the middle. Sergeant Gonzalez led. We made a right, made a right. We're pounding on the door like, hey, let us in. And you could hear them cutting their zip ties on their door inside. And it was just this like masonry building, like this concrete, like a concrete building. It had a stairway up and then up again. So it made like a 90 degree turn. When we got to the second floor landing, the one of our guys there, Bago, was just holding a Israeli dressing on his head. And I'll never forget, like, the look he gave me because, like just the whites of his eyes were like, dude, what the. So I remember I, I, I dropped down, I took my off, dropped my bag. The first thing I said is like, where do you get shot from? And they said, that window over there. And there's a window is probably 10ft away. I said, get someone on the window, like, because they're either gonna throw grenades in because they already know we're in here, or, like, at least get someone over there to look like so we don't take more casualties. I drop down. I took the Israeli bandage from Baka. I said, I got it, and I, like, I pulled it back, and it was like. If. If you had to describe, it was just like a human brain. It looked like someone mixed, like, jello and, like, chicken fat. And just, like, the amount of heat that was leaving his body was, like, insane because a lot of heat leaves through your head. So, like, I peel it back and it's just, like, steaming. Like, you just took the pot off of, like, boiling water. And I put the. The dressing bag on his head. I grabbed his hand because he was. He was still shaking. And I said, hey, Dietrich, if you can hear me, squeeze my hand. Because he was still breathing. And, like, he didn't give a response. I said, buddy, if you can. If you can hear me, squeeze my hand, please. Like, we're going to get you out of here. So place the dressing back on. Wrap it up. He's still, like, losing heat. I threw a collar around his neck, and I just remember, I was like, hey, someone give me the litter. Someone threw a litter on him. Then he started to do. When you have, like, severe brain damage, your body starts to get in to what they call, like, decorder kit and disarate posturing. So I'd only read about it in books, like, from, like, the military training. And he started, like, posturing. So I was like, oh, shit. Like, this is bad. We get him on the litter, and as we're carrying him down the stairs, that, like, aggressive turn from upstairs, like, on the landing, we couldn't get all of us to carry him at the same time. So I was like, give him to me. So I grabbed him, and I just started carrying him down the stairs. And I said, let's put him back on the litter when we get outside, carry him downstairs. There's just, like, brain matter like, all over me, just everywhere. Where we put him back on the litter, it's like, hey, I need four guys to tell me, carry him. And this is when, like, Dan was at the end of the road is probably like a quarter mile away. Like, we. We were in the middle of freaking nowhere. I get down, he's posturing. Now he's posturing in. He's, like, shaking. I'm like, dude. He's like, this is. This is horrific. I. I said, dietrich, like, you're good, dude. Like. Like, you're good. Like, we're. We're already outside. Like, we're going to get you out of here, man. And fucking then, like, grenades started popping off, and it was just the fucking machine gun fire. I didn't know where the fuck it was coming from. Like, my only concern was, like, him. So I covered him and I'm just, like, blocking him because I didn't know where shit was coming from. They were like, hey, fucking pop smoke. Like, when I tell you. Like, our leadership over there was fucking top notch. Like, they. They took care of us. Like, they were the most brutal, like, war fighters that you could ever imagine that could make decisions under pressure for the greater good of the platoon and. And us. They knew to pop smoke. They had communications with getting him out of there. And they, like, laid down suppressing fire. Like, it was just so perfectly coordinated that we were able to, like, pick him up. Pick him up. We ran him out of there and got him. Got him off to the aid station. But it was then we had to, like, run back to cop Firecracker and that. Like, we're still in the middle of the city. It's like, dude, what the. Like, we know they're out here. They. We know they're watching us. The streets are empty. Like, you know, some shit's gonna go down when all the kids leave. Like, when the kids are playing outside, it's like, oh, dude, nothing's going to happen now. When all the kids leave the street, you're like, oh, like, what's going to happen? Like, when people start emptying the street? But Lieutenant o' Hare asked me. He's like, do you think he'll be okay? And I said, well, he's never going to be Dietrich again. And they called us. They called us into a meeting. It was in, like, one of the top stories. I caught Firecracker. And they. They let us know that he passed away. And I was like, man, like, I. I just started crying. Like, I didn't know. I didn't know what to do. Like, I felt like I failed him. Like, I. Like, why. Like, why didn't I save him? Like, that was my job. Like, that was all I was over there do was, like, to save lives. And then to compound off of that, it was story best. Like, why didn't I see that ied? Like, why'd I say it quick? Like, I don't know what I do with myself if something happened to you like that. Like, what? Like, this is hell. Why am I here? Like, what am I doing? And you just want to, like, quit and give up. Because they just keep coming for you day after day and then not. But, like, three days later, route clearance mission. You're like. Like, I am going to fucking die over here. And all I was. I remember telling myself, like, thank God. Like, I don't have kids. Or, like, thank God I don't have a fucking wife. Like, my mom will be sad, but, like, dude, like, this is. This is the fucking end. It was brutal. And nothing ever prepares you for that. Like, how do you prepare for that? Like, watch your friends pass away. It's. It's fucked up.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you. Did you take leave. Whatever the. The. When you go home for two weeks, did you do that at some point during that deployment?

[Rob Black]

I did. I.

[Jocko Willink]

When was it?

[Rob Black]

I went in July. So, okay, we'd still. We were in Ramadi, and that's when we were just getting, like, peppered by the IEDs, like, every once in a while. And my first day back, I want to say it was like, July 24th. So we were doing. We were over by the university once again. And this is, like, kind of taking it back. So now we're back in July. We were driving by the university, and I was the tail vehicle, and all of a sudden, like, the vehicle in front of me just blows up. And I couldn't. Like, I didn't hear anything. And it was the vehicle directly in front of me. Just like, I have never in my life experienced or seen just kinetic, raw energy, blow a solid Humvee just into pieces. Just obliterated it. And you know how, like, the Humvee window, like, the windshields are flat. I remember I'm tall, so I had to, like, bend over, and I looked up, and I'm just watching, like, shrapnel fly in the air. And then it hits me. I'm like, oh, our dudes. Like, our dudes are inside. This is my first day back off a leave. So, like, I just did. Hung out with my grandma, my uncle. My uncle's asking for stories. Hey, man, what kind of. You getting in over there? Like, yeah, like, he's all into it. And Sergeant Marco told me, he's like, you stay right there. Do not get out. Because they were planning the secondary IDs, so we thought it was a. Like, the primary, waiting for the secondary. There were four people in that vehicle at that time. So Sergeant Gonzalez, he gets out of the vehicle, he's on fire. Like, he's jumping on the ground, like, rolling around. There's another guy. His name was Robertson or Robinson. He was a replacement. And Another dude, he was in the backseat. He got out, and he was, like, trying to kick himself away from the Humvee because now it's cooking off. No movement from the driver door, and the gunner was thrown. So Sergeant Marco gets out it, and we're still, like, right by the university. So I'm like, holy. Like, we're in a horrible spot. Like, they can see us from everywhere. And my gunner, Nina, I was like, dude, I'm getting out. Like, I'm going. And Nina's like, if you get out, I'll shoot you. And so I'm just sitting there holding my aid bag, like, just ready to go. And it felt like eternity. I'm like, dude, just like, let me go. Finally, he turns around. He's like, come up. And Strickland wasn't getting out of the vehicle. So we, like, we open or I open the door, it's just like, shit's popping off, it's on fire. Strickland would always drive with his arm up on the radio. So I opened the door. He's kind of, like, hunched over. And I remember I. I just grabbed him, like, by the. The handle on his back. Pulled him out. Like, he was weightless. Like, just so much fucking adrenaline that I had. And I was pulling him off, like, out of the Humvee. And I looked down. I'll never forget. Like, I was dragging him, and I looked down. His arm is hanging on by, like, just the skin, like, and I was dragging it in the dirt. So I had to, like, pick him up onto my chest and, like I said, like, weightless. Picked it up. Patched him up. Robertson, his foot was, like, blown open. Had a gnarly head wound. Patched him up, went over to Gonzalez. I'm like, where are you hit? He's like, my legs, my legs, my legs. He kept saying his legs, legs. And I couldn't find anything. And we got everyone out of there in, like, 13 minutes. Like, it was super, super fast. But that was, like, my introduction back from leave, and that was. And, like, w. Was thrown. The gunner, I believe he broke his pelvis or his legs. Like, he was just thrown super far. But those were like. I don't know. That was. It was gnarly.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. The reason I asked is we. Well, first of all, in the SEAL teams and in the Marine Corps, we do shorter deployments than you guys. Yeah, we do, like, six or seven month deployments. You guys are doing freaking 12, 14, 15, 16 month deployments. And so you guys get leave in the middle of it, which I. I Honestly don't know. Like, that seems like it'd be really psychologically hard to do, go home and just be everything normal for two weeks. And then especially like you're gonna go back and you know what you're getting into. That seems like it'd be really hard to do there.

[Rob Black]

There were stories of guys that just didn't come back. They're like, yeah, like they left there because you'd go to Kuwait and like, check in all your stuff and fly home. They just never would, would come back. Just stories. I never personally witnessed it, but I, I could see how that would happen. But I know for me it would be the guilt. Like, I wouldn't want, like, I wouldn't want another medic unless it was like Doc Herod there with my guys. Because I was like, if anyone's working on them, it's going to be me. And that's what, that's what I took at least like, some pride in. Like, if my guys are going, like, I'm going too. And I hope I did a good job and good by them. Um, looking back, you can always like, pick apart everything. Like, maybe if I would have done this, maybe if I would have done that, but you just, you end up in this cycle of like, self loathing that is not good. It's not healthy and it just, it's toxic. And it's like I just became a miserable person. Like, just because like, survival's guilt, survivor's guilt for one is, was like a huge thing. Like, I wish I would have died because some of those guys had wives and kids. I'm like, then part of you is like, I wish I would have died. You're like, huh, fuck, I could probably, I could probably do that now. I could probably still kill myself. And it's. I, I know it's like taboo to like, talk about it, but it, it's the reality of everything. Because the brain is a very, very scary device. And the way that it's wired that if you tell yourself something about enough times, like, you'll actually start to think it's true. And over time, I wouldn't talk about things that were actually like, going on in my head and like, thoughts that I would have. And it just compounded on top of itself, on top of like my job, like, horrific that I'd see at work that would bring up like, old memories. Like this still to this day, the smell of a burning vehicle. I have to like, take a second and be like, okay, I'm not there. Like, like, I'm not In Iraq, because that smell was the first time, like, in Iraq was the first time I smelt a burning vehicle. And my brain associates that with my dead friends. So luckily, like, over time, I've told myself, like, all right, if I smell it, like, it's not. I'm not there. I'm safe. I'm fine. But it can just be a roller coaster of. Of, like, pain and anguish. And I became a pretty terrible person to, like, not only like myself, but to be around. But I just wouldn't talk about it. And I wish. I wish back then, like, looking back, hindsight's always 20 20. I wish I would have, like, gotten the help that I needed. I wish I would have been honest because I was going to the therapist, but I was never, like, 100% transparent. Like, I would never go to. I wouldn't show up to the therapist and be like, hey, I watch videos online of Humvees getting blown up and wishing that I was in the Humvee, like, because I was scared of them saying, like, you need to get locked up in treatment. And then I would never tell them, like, hey, I. I fascinate with, like, killing myself. It was always like, I'm good. And they would say, like, how are you doing? Like, no, I'm good. Doing good. The antidepressants are working. Like, they weren't. They were not working. Like, they were making it worse. And it. And I got to the point, like, I would just go years with just saying I was okay. I'm okay. I'm okay. I wasn't okay. Like, I wish. I wish I would have, like, reached out to my friends and been like, hey, man. Like, hey, are you going through this, too? Like, I'm, like, super infatuated with, like, ending my life. And I would never tell anyone that. But I also, like, got off on it because it was my secret. Like, I just held onto it. Like, it was a. Like, it was a sense of power. But in reality, I was just. I was losing it, like, every day. And, like, through therapy, they. They explained that, like, your neurons can get, like, rewired. And when you go through something, like, so. So traumatic, like, like, what happened in Iraq, it's not necessarily the events that happened in Iraq. It's when your brain was developing, the seed was planted. So when I lost my friends there, like, your brain associates that with, like, possibly my dad leaving. So I went to therapy. I ended up having to go to 30 days in Utah.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And you're now in the mindset of, like, accepting that you're gonna die.

[Rob Black]

Oh, yeah. I, I thought, I thought I was dying over there for sure.

[Jocko Willink]

And then. So how is, you know, you're powering through, you're going in the field every day or every other day at a minimum. You're on qrf, you're sitting in overwatch positions, you're doing route clearance. And every time you go out, it's like the, the gut wrenching, like, oh, yeah, this, you know, probably coming today.

[Rob Black]

You hit a point where you're so numb, you're like, fuck it. Like, it's not like if I'm gonna die, it's how, like, and I hope it's glorious. Like, you get. It's twisted and then you look at, you don't even look at, as horrible as it sounds, like the population there, you don't even look at it as like humans. You look at them, it's like a threat. It, it's terrible. Like, the way that you would, like, view another human being, like, it was totally different. Like, the, just the, the parallels that happen, like from getting there, being like, yeah, hearts and minds, like, I'm a medic, I can actually help people. Community medicine to like, I, I need to like, either kill everyone just to make it back home or I need to find a way out of here. Like, just the two extreme parallels that I never thought I'd get into. Like, my brain wasn't, I don't think, equipped to, like, deal with that. I just, I didn't realize what I was getting myself into.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. You know, I've. I was having a conversation with a Marine that was in Ramadi with us, and, and he had a hard time coming home. And I was like, bro, it's not normal. It's not normal for a person to like, risk their life every single day and watch their friends and their troops and people that rely on and people that they're responsible for to die.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Repeatedly. Like, that's not. Hey, I get it. You know, everyone experiences death. You know, if you're a hunter, you go out, you killed. You know, you go out, you kill an elk, you kill a deer. If you're a farmer, you know, or a rancher, you kill a cattle. If you're a normal person, you know, your parents get old and they die. You know, occasionally someone, you know, gets sick in a terrible situation and they die. But like, to just be surrounded. Like, when I was a kid, I had, I had a friend that died. I think he had some kind of a heart problem. And this was maybe in fourth or fifth grade. And you know, it was like, shocking. But that was one kid. And you're a little kid. I don't even think you're really old enough to process it yet. But when you're in combat in Ramadi and it's like, oh, oh, another person just died today. Oh, let's go to another memorial service. Oh, another. Oh, now it's one of my friends. Oh, it's another memorial service.

[Rob Black]

Every other.

[Jocko Willink]

Over and over and over and over again. That shit's not normal. And so for people to. For people to get tripped up and be like, oh, well, number one, I'm gonna die. And if I don't die, then there's something wrong with me because, yeah, I should be dying and there's no way I'm gonna make it home anyways. And by the way, these people are. That are trying to kill us all them.

[Rob Black]

Hate them.

[Jocko Willink]

Yep, hate them. And you know, people talk about like, oh, you know, you know, like the Vietnam vets would go back to Vietnam. And people like, oh, Jon, do you ever want to go back to, like, Iraq? And I'm like, no, no. Well, what about when you're older? I am older. I don't want to go back. Like, it's not happening. I don't want to go there. I want to see it.

[Rob Black]

No.

[Jocko Willink]

So as you're. What happened mentally, like, as you started getting short as all of a sudden it's like, oh, you, you think you.

[Rob Black]

Might actually be going home to insult to injury. I was stop loss twice because my ETS date was in October. Because I signed up October of 2003. I signed a three year contract, so I was supposed to go home October of 06. Like, that was my ETS date. Our deployment started in January. So I stop lost until the duration of like the end of the deployment and the night out process. We got extended. I got stop loss again. They're like, hey, you're extended out another time. I'm like, God, like, I'm going to get caught up, man. Like, this is terrible. And so I was at the point, like, man, I just need to get the fuck out of here. Like, I just need to get home like you. I didn't have a plan. I had no clue what I was gonna do. I just needed to get the fuck out of Ramadi. Like that. That was my plan. And finally it came down. Like, we got the orders. Like, we're packing up all our shit. We're giving all the Humvees to the Iraqi army. So like, and kind of. And you get like insulted you're like, fuck, dude, I worked on that thing for a fucking year. Like, that's my baby. Like, that thing kept me alive for a year, and now we're just going to hand it off and they're going to shit all over it.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, they ain't going to run for two more years.

[Rob Black]

Yeah. With all the. With all the gear in it and everything. So we turn it in, and then I remember, like, starting to pack up the Conexes to go home to get through customs, and I'm like, at what.

[Jocko Willink]

Point did you stop running operations and how much more time did you have the pack?

[Rob Black]

I believe we stopped running operations, and I'm sure Dan could answer it. Like, we got home on Valentine's Day in 06, so I want to say, like, mid February. So we probably stopped running operations about two weeks before that. Two to three weeks before that.

[Jocko Willink]

So at that point, you kind of knew. You kind of, like, thought you made it.

[Rob Black]

It was the anticipation. It was like, hey, it looks like we might be going home. Then we started to see, like, the rumor mill is. Is terrible. We started to see, like, the third ID Connex is showing up. So we're like, oh, fuck. Like, it's happening. Like, we're going to get the fuck out of here. And then we had our last mission. They said that was it. Start packing up your. And I was so. I was like, I cannot wait to get the. Out of the Army. This is not for me. Like, this is like. And maybe if I didn't deploy, my wife has asked me, like, do you think you would have stayed in the military? And I told her, if it wasn't for combat, maybe because it was such. It was a cool career. Like, you. You're told what to do, when to do, how to do it. Like, everything is very structured, you know, like, what's going on? But I didn't realize, like, the combat just like, I can't do this again. And I.

[Jocko Willink]

And just so you know, that was not a normal tour, like, at all.

[Rob Black]

Yeah. Realizing that now, I'm like, holy. Like, that was. Man, that was brutal. Like, the just brutality of man. Like, just. I don't know. Like, it. It's hard to. To not think about it and, like, associate it.

[Jocko Willink]

It's a weird. It's a weird dynamic for the SEAL teams. So when we were wrapping up deployment and we're turning over with guys from Seal Team 5 and I guess one different. Very different dynamic. I suppose there's going to be some people in the army that you would know the people that are coming to replace you might know a few of them. But. But like in the SEAL teams, we know these guys. Like, they're. They're like our friends. And it was, you know, when I had Elliot and Joe, who were, you know, we were talking about warfare, the movie. Those are the two guys that were wounded on that operation. But just knowing these guys and knowing that what they're getting into, and there's no way you can convey it to them. Like, I literally told them. I was the task unit commander. I literally told them. I'm like, you guys are going to take casualties.

[Rob Black]

And.

[Jocko Willink]

And, you know, just talking to him, they're like, yeah. We were like, okay. You know, kind of almost didn't believe me. And. And I can see that, you know, and you're like, you got it. Like, everything you can do, like, pay attention to everything matters. Like. And so when you're leaving these guys, it's like the most horrible feeling because it's almost like, you know, and, you know, that they don't quite know yet. And it's. It's like, it just feels terrible. It'd be like, you know, if. If you're watching something bad happen and your kids are there and you're like, all right, I'm just gonna leave now, and there's nothing you can do to help them.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And that's what it felt. It felt like, like we didn't want to leave. And then you also know, like, well, you can't stay. It ain't happening. And that was a horrible feeling leaving.

[Rob Black]

Those guys because you can only express it so much. Like, hey. Cause there was like that. That phase, the transition phase, where like, hey, this is. This is what we did. This is what worked for us. Pay attention to this radio frequencies that, like, you're trying to pass along information, but there's no. There's no way to prepare you for what. What was outside of those wires in Ramadi.

[Jocko Willink]

God. So you get on the bird and you're heading home. How's that?

[Rob Black]

I went from being Sergeant Black in Ramadi, Iraq, in February to Rob Black out of the military in April. So it was about a six week transition because we got. We got back out, processed, and then I was back home with my mom. Like, it was. It was just like culture shock. Like, there wasn't really a huge, like, transition period. And I remember just everything pissed me off.

[Jocko Willink]

Did you have a plan?

[Rob Black]

No, not really. I knew that I wanted to go to school, and I knew that I wanted to do something, and I Had that EMT card from going to medic school. I was like, I'll get a job on an ambulance. So I got hired at Care Ambulance, which was an ambulance service out in Orange in LA county. And I worked there for several years. And I worked with some guy. He's like, hey, man, like, why don't you go to paramedic school school? I was like, that's actually pretty good idea. And then in paramedic school, guys are like, hey, man, like, why don't you try the fire service? Oh, that kind of sounds kind of cool. And it just kind of happened. Like, I was never that kid that, like, grew up, like, playing with fire trucks or anything. It just, and it, it ended up being like that. But my background was always, like, medical. So I got, like, into the dorky stuff, like the paramedicine stuff, which I still love to this day. I, I, I help teach at the community college when I can, on days off. Like, it's a lot of fun. Um, but it was a, it was a rough transition because I felt I always walked around with, like, a chip on my shoulder, like, like everyone owed me something or, like, people should respect me. And I just remember someone told me what one time, like, nobody owes you anything. Like, and it's true. Like, say what you want, like, the world does not owe you, and I don't care who you are, what you've been through. Like, the world does not owe you anything, and nobody is going to tiptoe around you. And that was a hard life lesson for me to learn because I was like, yeah, I've been through combat. Like, I've been in this. Now that it's over, I can be like Billy Badass. You know what I mean? Like, talk about it in the past tense. When, like, several months ago, I was like, God, I just want to get out of here alive. Like, you know what I mean? Mean, like, it, it's, it's just, it's wild, like, and it even seems like a fairy tale sometimes. Like, talking about it just, like, how, how everything, like, transpired and how everything, like, worked out, it's just, it's kind of hard to believe sometimes because even, like, when guys, like, I'll work with some guys, I'm like, you were in the Army? Yeah. I was like, you're weird. I'm like, yeah, I know, man.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And again, it's not like you were just the army. I mean, you were a freaking, you know, you awarded the Combat Medical Badge. Like, that means you were working on people in the under fire. That's what that means. And so what. What's like, you know, you're talking about these feelings that you're having when you get home. You know, it's what we. It's what we call ptsd, right? This is what we call it. You're working as a medicine. What does your life look like? And what does PTS do into your PTSD doing to your brain while you're. How old are you now? You're 24 years old working as an EMT. You're 25 years old working as an EMT.

[Rob Black]

I was 22. Because I was 21. I was 21 during the deployment. I literally got out of the military in April, and I got hired by Care in June. So within a matter of, like, five months, I went from, like I said, Sergeant Black to Rob Black. Driving an ambulance around LA and Orange.

[Jocko Willink]

County, and you're rolling up on car accidents, rolling up on morbidly obese people that are freaking covered in their own shit.

[Rob Black]

Oh, every day just like, yeah, heinous shit. Those are my favorite. I'm just kidding. The same people that call over and over and over again. Yeah, the EMS system is. It's wild. And little did I know that that was compounding what had. What had already happened to me. Cause, like, like I said, you're just reliving it in a different aspect over and over again, over and over and over again. And like I said, I w. I wish I would have gotten help because it came to a breaking point, like, eventually, like, after I met my wife, I was drinking a lot. There'd be times where I would drink, like, every day constantly. And then there'd be times where I just wouldn't drink and my mind would just, like, go crazy.

[Jocko Willink]

But what is your mind going crazy? What does that describe that to me?

[Rob Black]

Trying to process, like, all this information. Like, I had so many thoughts going on that I can never get anything organized. Like, I would always get, like, hyper fixated on one thing. I'd get distracted and be like, okay, I need to do this. And. And I used alcohol to kind of, like, calm myself down because that was all I knew. And you. You don't know what you don't know. And I was like, oh, a beer will just help me, like, you know, calm down. And then I'd get excessive with it. And just like. Like most veterans, you struggle with, like, some substance abuse stuff, and I'd abuse it and just drink a lot until I'd black out, because that was the only thing that would help Me sleep at night. Like, I would wake up. I would wake up during the day, and I would beg for nighttime. I'd be like, man, I just can't wait to take my Benadryl so I can fucking just not be awake anymore. Because I. I hated myself. Like, I just did not. I. I would wake up, look at myself in the mirror, and be like, I hate you. Like, who are you? Like, it was just miserable because I just could not. I could not, like, organize my thoughts. I was just all over the place. I was miserable. I was toxic to other people. Like, I would. I would talk down to other people. I thought that I was better than other people. Like, just things that were so unhealthy when I was the problem. It's like, this is a me problem, not at anyone else problem. And it was. It wasn't until, like, I ended up meeting my wife Taylor's Oldest time we met on Tinder. True romance is Tinder.

[Jocko Willink]

Like the pure hookup one. You. Carrie, you got to tell me.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, that's.

[Jocko Willink]

That's like pure. Like you're just going there kind of hook up.

[C]

Though it. Maybe it was. It was kind of the only game in town for a little while. And then you had all these other little services crop up. And then Tinder became kind of the hookup one.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, I talked to the young guys at work. There's all kinds of shit out there now. It's like fish in a barrel, man. Like, all the young firemen, they're like, audience. You live vicariously through them. It's wild. I couldn't even imagine, like, the dating scene nowadays. But we met. She's a horse girl. So if you ever love the rough touch of a woman, like data. Horse girl. She's actually trailering down. She's competing in. In Del Mar. Oh, right on this week. So she's training equestrian. Yeah. So she does like hunter jumper. Like, so she jumps the fence. She's actually like, super talent. She qualified for freaking Nationals.

[Jocko Willink]

Damn.

[Rob Black]

In Las Vegas. She's a stud, man. Like, if you saw.

[Jocko Willink]

How did you manage to freaking pull that off, dude, you're drinking and freaking being depressed and acting crazy.

[Rob Black]

I know. Like, what a disaster. She likes fix me ups. So that's. Yeah, she loves. She loves hot messes. So. And to top it off, she's a freaking lawyer too. She's an attorney. Like, full blown doctorate attorney. Like, if you. I know I'm fighting out of my weight class. Like, you'll see a picture of me and her and you'd be like, what, what is she doing with him? Like, what's wrong with her?

[Jocko Willink]

So, so when you meet her, how old are you when you meet her?

[Rob Black]

I was, it was 10 years ago.

[Jocko Willink]

So how old are you right now?

[Rob Black]

30. So I'm 40 now. I age like milk.

[Jocko Willink]

So you're 30 years old.

[Rob Black]

I look terrible.

[Jocko Willink]

You're 30 years old. You're. And when you meet her, you still drink and you're still feeling like.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, but she was drinking too. Like we were a fireman and an attorney living in an apartment together with nothing to do. And we were just partying like, hey, where's, where's the next party at? Like going to San Pedro, hitting like the fish markets, just drinking all day. And then she calls me. It's actually a funny story. She sends me a text message of a positive pregnancy test. And I was driving on the 8 freeway to get my physical for work. And I wrote back, and if, if you know, like our dynamic of like our relationship. Like, she jokes a lot too. Like she would fit in very well with like police, fire, military, like that kind of like culture. And I wrote back, haha, fuck you. And then like I didn't hear anything and I'm on my way to the physical and she calls me, she's like, this is not a fucking joke. I'm pregnant.

[Jocko Willink]

This is not a drill.

[Rob Black]

I'm like. And I was like, there's. There's no way. Like, what are you talking about? You're pregnant? And I had to pull over and I puked on the side of the road. I went to my physical, my blood pressure was like 190 over something like. And the, the poor girl like intaking me, like checking me and she said, are you okay? Like you do not like, look okay. I said, I know this is weird. I just found out that my girlfriend is pregnant and I don't know what I'm doing with my life, like, wild. So that was like the start of our, our relationship and we have been together ever since.

[Jocko Willink]

So when did you get married?

[Rob Black]

We got married in. When she was pregnant. When she got pregnant.

[Jocko Willink]

And then, and then at what point? So you're a firefighter now you're married. It's, I think or you know, whatever, you're married, you got a kid on the way. It seems like you're going in a pretty good like from the outside. You're a firefighter, she's a lawyer, she's an equestrian master. You got a kid on the way, you're now married. Like you're kind of like, if you, if you paint that picture for a human being in Southern California, you're set for life. Like, you're, you're, you're in the top, you know, 1% of life winners, right?

[Rob Black]

You would think, right?

[Jocko Willink]

That's what it looks like from the outside, but what's going on on the inside.

[Rob Black]

And that's what, that's where, like, the whole factor of, like, just struggling with, like, the PTSD kicks in. And it was the weirdest thing. Like, we get married, we have our daughter. I'm not drinking as much. Like, I'll have some drinks, like, when the baby goes to bed, whatever. But then, like, the dark thoughts start creeping in. Like, I'm like, man, like, why do I deserve this life? It's all about framing, right? So, like, what you're talking about, like, damn, you have like the perfect life on paper. I'm like, yeah, but why do I deserve this? Isn't that terrible? Like, isn't that a terrible, like, view to have of the world? Like, why am I here now? And we made the decision. We're like, well, I mean, you know, she needs a, she needs someone to play with. So we had another kid. We had as a second daughter. So it all came to a head, like, and it was never anything that was like, line in the sand. Like, you're fucking up. Like, you're, you're doing this. It was all tiny little things, like, like, hey, we don't do that anymore. Because I'd leave for my shift, I'd come home and it would always be like, oh, no, like, she doesn't eat that anymore. Okay, well, it's been three days. Like, I'm trying to catch up. I was always trying to play catch up. Like, I was like, I was this part time dad that was just filling in for a couple days just to leave again. And she was at home working full time as an attorney, taking care of two kids. Like, she's just eating it in the face. Like, just, she's doing everything like rock star. And then I come in and just screw everything up. But it's all up here in my head that I'm screwing it up. When in all actuality, I was just, I was present, like, and I was there. But I would get in my own head and be like, man, I'm such a failure. Like, I don't deserve this life. Like, like you said on paper, like, I have a wife, a house, a family. Like, we got the dogs, we got the horses. Like, everything is great, but inside I just, I lost it. And so it. It came down to, like, one day, like, I would get like, super infatuated with, like, killing myself, like, just to be.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And you guys had. There's. I remember Dan talked about this and he's got in his book. But Diaz and Rogers, he had two guys that were in that troop with you guys in Ramadi.

[Rob Black]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

And they both killed themselves.

[Rob Black]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Diaz was in 2018 and Rogers was in 2021. Did you hear about Diaz at this.

[Rob Black]

Time and when it happened? Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And did that, like, seem like, oh, there you go. Like this. This is. This is a possible.

[Rob Black]

And that's what I'm saying here is like, you're. You're a product of your environment. And like, you surround yourself with it. Like, you hear. You hear the things. I go 22 a day. Like, guys are killing themselves all the time. And you feel like that's like your only. Only, like, recourse or your only answer. And like, the self loathing builds up. You get in your own head. I was going to therapy, but not being honest, I'm on these antidepressants that are making me feel like, not only tired all the time, but they're making me have, like, these lucid dreams that.

[Jocko Willink]

Are like, can these therapists just. Sorry for. Can these therapists, like, do. Do they not. Are they not able to be like, ask a couple questions where you get trapped some way where you kind of have to admit to it?

[Rob Black]

Yeah, I wish. No, because, like, you're just like.

[Jocko Willink]

Because today I'm fine.

[Rob Black]

Yeah. Because I was not fine and I wasn't honest. And feel free to interrupt me. It's like, it's literally your show. Like, that's what. That's what it says, you know? But was the strangest thing, like, we went to the Orange county fair in 2019, and it was around this time, like, July of 2019, and all I did was like, I pulled one of the girls out of the car seat and I put her in the wrong side. Like, because they have, like, their designated sides. And I'm like, oh, crap, I did that wrong. And then all day I just got in my own head. Like, shit, man. Like, I can't do anything right. Like, why can I not do anything right? And we had, like, the picture perfect day at the OC Fair. Like, just had a great time. Good family day stuff. Pictures from it. Like, it was incredible. And then all of a sudden, like, something in my brain switched and. And I know that, like, my daughters will hear this one day. But, like, I remember looking at them at the rearview mirror. And, and I said the answer is like, everyone would be so much happier if I was gone. Like, because then there wouldn't be these problems of me like choosing the wrong seat or like, you know, I, I got him like the wrong bottle or I got him the wrong food. All these things that just seems so like minuscule like in the totality that is life. But like in my own head I was like totally screwing everything up. I still remember looking at them like in the car seats, cuz we have like the backwards facing mirrors. And like looking at them and be like, damn, they're gonna be so happy when I'm gone. And then I got this like this period of like elation. Cause I finally had the answer. I was like, oh, I'm gonna fucking kill myself. And I was. Even my wife was like, God, you've been in such a good mood lately. Like you're so like delightful to be around. And I'm like, yeah, because you don't know what's coming. Like I'm gonna off myself and, and my wife knows everything. I've been very, very open about everything. And if anyone's listening to this and like you're having these thoughts too, like, reach out please, because I promise you it gets better. Like it is your own brain. And it's not that there's something wrong with you, it's just your brain trying to understand what happened and make sense of what you're going through and how to get past it. It's just simply an understanding thing and you can be taught and walk through delicately through clinician work and be guided through this. And there is hope and you do matter and do not, please do not kill yourself.

[Jocko Willink]

So what, what made you okay? Did you come up with a plan? Were you like, okay, tomorrow night?

[Rob Black]

Yeah, so I was whatever. I had a, I have a 1911 in my room. And like we would get the girls down for bed. Like my wife would be in bed, she'd go to bed early because she would always have to wake up super early for work. She's like, you wakes up at like 4 o' clock in the morning, just hits it. And like there would be nights where I'd like go in there and I would like check the closet and I just like hold, hold the pistol and she'd be like asleep in the bed and just feeling the weight of it was like empowering. And then I'd like hold the clip in another hand. I'm like, yeah, I'm about to fucking rock this through my Brain. Like, it was. It was dark. But then when you're. When you're in that state, it sounded like a good idea. Like, it sounded like, hey, do you want to come on the Jocko podcast? Like, hey, yeah, that sounds cool and healthy. Like, it made sense to me. Like, my brain was wired. Like, this is the answer, and this is going to fix everything, and this is how I'm going to get out of this situation. Like, it sounded like. Like, you and me talking right now. Like, it sounded like totally normal and healthy. Like, it is terrifying. Like, one thing about the human brain is it can get rewired and just become a nightmare. And then I would get on my phone and watch videos of, like, dude's getting blown up in Iraq again. I was taking myself back there, like, watching those old sniper videos of, like, the Musha Dean. Like, all. Like, all the stuff that I'm sure you've seen, like, from the other side, like, and just got, like. Like I said, like, infatuated with it, and it was terrifying. So it finally came to a head, and I ended up needing treatment.

[Jocko Willink]

How did you. Like, what was the. The. The turning point where you said, you know what? Instead of me freaking killing myself, I'm gonna. Who'd you talk to? Did you talk to your wife? Or what'd you do?

[Rob Black]

No, it's. I took. I took a bunch of Gabapentin. I took a bunch of Zoloft Slugapenton. It's used for several different things. My doctor prescribed it for, like, anxiety, so I took a bunch of it to, like, numb myself. I drank a ton of vodka, and I was gonna. I was gonna do it then, but I got so, like, so jacked up, I couldn't go through with it.

[Jocko Willink]

And then you.

[Rob Black]

So I ended up getting transported to the hospital, and then in there, that's when my wife said, like, you. You need help.

[Jocko Willink]

Got it. So thankfully, you got two freaking. You got. You blacked out. You passed out. And then your wife, you need to go to the hospital. She takes you to the hospital, and she's like, yo, you need some freaking help.

[Rob Black]

Oh, I went in an ambulance. Like, oh, it was like, the real deal. So.

[Jocko Willink]

So what is it. So what is the process now?

[Rob Black]

What.

[Jocko Willink]

So what happened after that? So I think you say you went to Utah for treatment.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, so I ended up going to Utah for.

[Jocko Willink]

Why Utah? Like, you're in California. Why. Why? Is there some special program out there or something?

[Rob Black]

Yeah, so there was. It's a place called Deer Hollow. So I will say one thing. Like, the. The fire service in a whole has kind of made, like, the whole mental thing, mental health thing. Like, kind of not taboo anymore. Like, we're. We're openly talking about it, and my department specifically like it. Kudos to them. And I'm not trying to, like, blow rainbows up their skirt or anything, but, like, the notifications were made that, like, I had this incident, and they said, okay, send him to wherever he needs to get help and we'll deal with everything later. Like, they put me off on leave. The proper notifications were made, and I got connected to this place in Utah that could help me.

[Jocko Willink]

Is there something specific about that place or.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, they help veterans, fire eaters, ems. Like, I got up there, and they had, like, patches from all over the country, like, with police, fire, ems. Like, it just helps a bunch of, like, that community. And I got there, I'm like, what am I doing here? Like, I'm gonna lose my family. I remember getting on the plane, like, what have I done? I've just screwed up my life. Like, how am I ever going to be able to, like, face my wife again, face my kids again? Like, it. Lots of shame. And shame is just, like, something that's extremely toxic. It's out there in the ether. Like, it was very, very, like, embarrassing.

[Jocko Willink]

Did your wife know about, like, the suicidal thoughts, or did she just think you were just an alcoholic, you were being an idiot?

[Rob Black]

Yeah, she. She just thought I had a problem.

[Jocko Willink]

And so now when you get up there, you check into this place, like, what. You know, this process. And I think you said it was education and rewiring of the brain, but, like, how do they do that? What does that sound like? What are they talking about? What does your day sound look like?

[Rob Black]

So initially it was you'd wake up, do breakfast, and you're all living together, and everyone has, like, different stories. So you'd wake up, you do your counseling sessions, your therapy sessions, and it was. Have you heard of emdr?

[Jocko Willink]

Is that the flashing red lights or is it the magnets?

[Rob Black]

I believe what it's. I forget exactly what it stands for, but it's like a kind of, like, hypnotizing therapy where they wave your fingers in front of your face and it's for, like, rapid eye movement. It's supposed to, like, help you recall, like, events. And so up there, I guess it was neither.

[Jocko Willink]

I said flashing red lights or magnets. I've. I've had a bunch of friends go to all different kinds of treatments, so I thought EMDR was one of those.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, and it, and it sounds like a bunch of like, my wife calls it hocus pocus. She, she, she's like, if it works for you, that's great. But like, that's like, not for me. But they dug up a lot of stuff, like, from my childhood that affected me. That was like the problem. So like, the Iraq stuff was just like insult to injury. It was like re. Breaking an arm. So it was like, you need help from your childhood memory. So then it went from like, Iraq was like, not even what they were focused on whatsoever, but living in the community. They're watching everything about you and how you operate. And they were like, yeah, your, your childhood was screwed up. Like, you have serious abandonment issues. And like, that's why you joke so much. That's why you try and make everyone laugh because you're scared that everyone's gonna leave you. I'm like, oh my God. Like, it, it's crazy what they did in that environment. But you're constantly around counselors for 24, 7, 365, one on one counseling, talking to other, other members there. But it also gives you the time to like, decompress and be like, what am I doing? They, they invited my wife up there, so she had my mother in law and father in law watch the kids. She flew up to Utah. And I didn't know that they were planning this. I was like, yeah, me and my wife are fighting. Like, obviously we went up there and we did like a skit and it was like, okay, like, let's pretend like you two are in like a lover's quarrel. And like, it started with a skit and it ended up with like me telling. I forget, like, how it transpired. And she's like, well, what the hell? Like, why can't you just deal with your problems? I said, what the do you want me to say? Do you want me to tell you that, like, for the past several years I've wanted to blow my brains out? Like, is that what you want from me? Like, and it turned in to like this scenario to her, like, leaving and crying and we sat outside on like the lawn. I'm like, look, I'm. I am so sorry that I'm like, this. Like, you don't deserve this. Like, you as a person do not deserve this. Like, you don't deserve to be put through this. Like, we have children together. You deserve to be happy. And I'm not pulling my weight as a partner. Like, I feel terrible because I'm just, I'm not pulling my weight for you. And she. I don't know why she stuck through it with me, but she did say she's like, if you continue your. Like, if you don't get help and you're not honest with therapists, like, you will, like, we're gonna be gone. Like, I'm not gonna have you around our kids. Because I was. It was just so bad. But, like, that. That 30 days up in Utah kind of, like, helped me decompress. Constantly being around the therapists, that's when, like, the cat was out of the bag. I'm like, okay, I'm suicidal. Like, they're like, okay, well, like, what makes you think about that? So, like, what you were speaking about earlier, like, why don't therapists, like, trap you? Well, now the secret was out. Like, this guy gets on these, like, ragers where he just drinks until he's so numb that he doesn't think about his problems, and then he wants to kill himself. So they already knew the path I was going down. So, like, my guard was down. Like, they already knew how to attack me, and they just broke it down, like, piece by piece by piece over the 30 days. And my wife came up. It was. It was horrible. Like, just watching her go through that, like, and knowing that she stuck with me, like, I don't. I could never. I could never repay her for that. Like, being the mother of my kids and then going through that and, like, just me being a mess. Why? Just because I have, like, daddy issues from when I was a kid. They got, like, perpetuated by, like, that happened in Iraq. And then I was feeling all sorry for myself and, like, none of the that happened to me. If I would have been an adult about it and actually took it head on and said, I have these problems. This is a me problem, and I need to fix it. I would have never gotten to this point. But I also think if I never got to this point, I wouldn't have the life that I have. Like, now. We had our son. Our marriage is great. She's riding horses. Like, I do not drink anymore. I take my medicine as prescribed. I'm honest with my. My doctors. Be like, hey, yeah, I'm having some fucking down days. Like, okay, well, like, now it. It's kind of funny because, like, now they're like, well, are you thinking about. You know? And I'm like, no, I'm not. Like, like, they're trying to diffuse a bomb. Like, we were. We went to go see that warfare movie. My wife is like, are you sure? Like, yeah, I'm ready Because I can handle things. I just handle everything up front now.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. A long time ago, I had it from my friend Peter Atti on the podcast, and he was. Was a ER doctor in Baltimore in, like, when Baltimore was just, like, the worst area. And one thing that he said was that when families would, like, have someone get shot, right? If the family. If the family was like a. A little bit of a solid family, losing someone from their family would make them tighter. But if the family was, like, had little fractures in it, then having someone in the family get killed would make the family, like, explode. And I thought that was a very close correlation to, like, kind of what you're saying, which is people that you're in the military, you're going through something, or you're a firefighter, you're a police officer, or you're just going through life, and you have something in your past that's like a little crack, right. Like a little crack you had with your dad leaving. And you don't know what the hell's going on. You're eight years old, you have a little crack, and when you get put into the fire of. Of combat, it's like all of a sudden that crack just opens up, right. And gets worse. And then it sounds like you not like just trying to pretend that the crack's not there and just act like it's not there and just kind of turning your head to just gets worse and worse and worse as opposed to going, oh, there's a freaking crack here. Yeah, I see it. It's getting worse. I need to get it together. I need to put some cement in there. I need to freaking fill it in and. And. And make it solid again. And I think that's a. A huge piece of it. And just the way you're saying this stuff, like, being able to reframe the way you look at things, like, isn't it crazy to think the way you're. The way your thought process was, hey, I've got a beautiful wife and. And two kids and a great job, and I don't deserve this.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Because my friends that didn't come home, they should be here instead of me. As opposed to, hey, I've got a great job, a great wife. I got two kids now. Three kids. I'm doing my best to earn the fact that I got to come home. And I hope my guys are proud of me like that. Those are two just totally opposing frames that you can put on the world that you're in. And do you think that. I guess this is my Question. How do you grab control of that way, that, that, that frame that you're going to put on things? Does somebody external have to help you with that? Like, how do you make that happen?

[Rob Black]

I think the factor for me was like the external factor. Like I had that event happen. I wish from the beginning I would have, because I always felt like it would have been like an impediment on my wife and the kids. Like, hey, I need to go get treatment. And she would have said, what? You need to leave for 30 days? Why do you get a 30 day vacation? And it, it was just, I always, I didn't want to ask for anything. Like, I don't like being in the way of anything. I don't like being a problem for anyone. Like one of my biggest like flaws is I hate asking for help. I even noticed that like in my day, like even in my job, like if there's something like dirty hose or something that I need help with or like getting paid out. I hate inconveniencing people. And that's a me problem because normally people would want to help. Like, hey man, like, can you help me go? Like, it'll go a lot faster if you help me like come clean this hose or whatever. And I just didn't want to be an inconvenience. I didn't want to get in anyone's way. And I think like what you're saying, framing, perspective, it, it's 100% that. Because it's not that I don't deserve the life that, that I have. I do deserve it. It's just, it's been a bumpy road to get here, man. And it's. I wish I was honest with myself before, but I don't know if I would be here unless that happened. And I know that's very like contradictory and like all over the place, but, but it's true. It took me having a mental breakdown, wanting to end my own life, to get down to the foundation, to like rebuild the home. You know what I mean? And it, and it's true. Like families that are, that are like tight knit, like now with me and my wife, it's like, okay, well we can handle, you know, whatever. Like the kids are getting home, sent home for sick from school. It's like, okay, like, cool, we can deal with that. It's actually like made us stronger. But it's just the open and honest portion of it.

[Jocko Willink]

You, you talked about kind of like having bad days. First of all, what is a bad day? And second of all, what's Your what's your immediate action drill? Like, what's your contingency plan when something like that happens?

[Rob Black]

So, like, normally, like a bad day to me would be like, I just get over stimulated. Especially with like, three kids at home. Like, just everywhere. Thing is, things are just thrown all over the place. Something's broken. Like, I just get overstimulated. And out of nowhere, I'll just get these, like, bouts of depression to where I'm just sad for no reason. And it happened to me, like, several weeks ago. My wife's like, well, what's wrong? I'm like, I don't know. I'm just fucking sad. Like, I just. I don't feel good. And it just comes out of nowhere. It comes in waves. But. And it's more like the hocus pocus. Like, I found meditating when I heard about, like, meditation and like, listening to, like, certain sounds, at first I was like, ah, this is kind of like, lame. And then I was guided through it by someone who actually does meditation and does, like, the therapy for meditation. And on Amazon music, they actually have, like, American. Native American flutes.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob Black]

So that's like what I throw on. If you search Native American flutes, I turn that on. I do meditation. I start doing grounding. Like, okay, I'm laying in. Usually I go in my room. I'm laying in my bed. I can feel my blanket. I can feel my pillow. I know walls are around me. I know I'm safe. Why am I having these thoughts? And are they true? The biggest thing is like, are they true? So when things would happen, like, with the kids, be like, man, I'm fucking worthless. Like, am I truly worthless? And it's all about framing. It's like, no, I'm not truly worthless because I have a lot to offer, a lot to give. And you just start, like, breaking down those statements in your head, like, I'm worthless. I'm a piece of shit. Like, I don't deserve to live. And you just kind of like, take those head on and be like, all right, well, no, I. I'm not worthless because I do have a lot to give. I. I have a purpose. I do deserve to be here. I've worked hard to be here. And then you just kind of like, live in the moment. And I try and clear my brain from everything and just think about nothing. And the. For. For me personally, everyone's going to be different. The grounding and the listening to, like, the Native American flutes or like, the yoga music has helped a ton. But just trying to prove that Everything that I think is wrong because as soon as you start poking holes in the dam, like, eventually it'll open back up.

[Jocko Willink]

And just FYI, man, like, I. I have four kids, but in my military career, I had three, and then I had four. The fourth one towards the end. But, like, bro, you just got to.

[Rob Black]

Deal with, like, you just got to.

[Jocko Willink]

Be like, oh, yeah, there's just. Oh, there's applesauce all over the, you know, computer keyboard. Awesome. There's, you know, a shitty diaper that's on my pillow. Good to go. Like, like, it's just. That's just the way it is. Like, you got to get into it.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, exactly. No, it's. It's just wild. And I would get so worked up for the longest time, like, trying to have a clean house. It's not going to happen. Like, you're just. You're raking sand.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rob Black]

There's just ever. It's a. It's chaos. And I'm trying to embrace it because everyone says, like, dude, you're gonna miss it once it's gone. Like, the little feet running down the hallway like that. Like, you will miss those days, and you're gonna miss having the house, like, just a disaster. So I try and, like, embrace it. Like, when I feel myself getting, like, worked up or, like, super sad, I just sit there and, like, sit around everyone and be like, look, like, this is chaos, but. But we're in it right now.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, the, the other thing is, is, like, when you say, you know, you get sad, right? Or I guess you're using the word depressed.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

For me, it took me a little while to, like, recognize and ex and start telling people that that's fine. Like, you know, oh, you know, you lost some of your friends in combat and you get sad about it sometimes. Well, yeah, of course you do. Like, that's totally normal and totally fine. And, you know, it. It might be something that you see or something that reminds you or something that, you know, good or bad, something good happens, and you start thinking, well, why do. Why do I get this? Like, and that's. It's just, like, that's okay. That's just normal. It's part of being a human being. You know, I think that is a. I think that's one thing where people can get a little bit sidetracked is they think, wow, you know, I, I, I was in combat 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago. Why am I sad right now that this happened to this guy? There must be something wrong with Me, it's like, no, actually there's nothing wrong with you.

[Rob Black]

There's not, actually.

[Jocko Willink]

You're just sad because you lost your friend and it sucks and you're thinking about them and that's the way life is.

[Rob Black]

And so it's a good thing.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

You're remembering them like, hey, man, at least they're being thought about. And you could carry on their memory too. Like, it doesn't have to. Like, sometimes you just wake up, you're sad. Like you were saying it. And it's fine. You're a human being being. Sometimes there isn't always necessarily a reason. Like you just subconsciously, like, like I've said, like, sometimes I just get down and that's fine. But like, definitely I'm more self aware than I used to be because that depression would turn into self loathing. Like, because I'd be like, oh, I'm sad. I'm such a pile of that I can't even be happy. Like, see? And it would just spiral it. I'm telling you, man. Like, I was. Like, it was bad because I would just believe everything in my head that I told myself.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I like that. I like that little question you ask yourself. Is it true? That seems like a. Like, Like a little. A little. Seems like it's not that big of a deal, but actually if you start pulling the thread on that, is it true?

[Rob Black]

You start unwinding. It's like the ball of yarn.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, no, actually, that's not true. I'm not a piece of.

[Rob Black]

Thank you. Therapy. Yeah, they taught me that, like, is what you're saying, Drew. I don't know. They're like, no, it's not. So every time you have a thought, like, is it true? Like, am I really worthless? No, you're not. It's not true. You just have to make sure that anything that is in your head, like, it's not reality.

[Jocko Willink]

And you still go see a therapist on a regular basis.

[Rob Black]

How often? Right now it's like once every three months. Because everything's like kind of under control. Like, that whole event happened in August of 19. So, like, now I've gotten. I'm very open about everything. Like I said, I'm an open book. Like, if anyone needs to, like, reach out, like, hit me up on Instagram or whatever, like, I'll. I'll put my, like, Instagram ID or whatever. If I'm an open book, man. Like, I think this stuff is very important. We need to crush the taboo of like, like, mental health is weakness, because it definitely isn't because I'm not kidding. Like when I came out and I went back to work and that was another thing was like going back to work, I'm like, how am I going to be around these firemen after they know that I've just had like a mental breakdown and I had to go to happy camp for 30 days. Like, how, how am I even going to show my face? But I'm not kidding. Like, say what you want about like going over, going and getting therapy. I've had more people come up to me and like, hey man, when did you know it was time? Because I'm having these thoughts too. And that's what's important is that we start the conversation around it. You know what I mean? Like, hey man, like I'm sad, man. I get sad too. You get like common humanity between two people, especially two people that have like the same, the same life experiences. Like you and I were both in rati. It's like, hey, it's okay that we both get sad. It's normal. Like what we went through was hell. When you feel like you have someone else that has also been through that with you, it builds a community. And for veterans, fire, police, ems, like it's okay. It's okay to have some bad days, some down days, to have like terrible thoughts. Because what we do is you see the worst of the worst. And I just hope we break that stigma of like going and getting help like eventually. And I truly believe that we're getting there seeing like the younger generation of like firefighters and paramedics. It seems like they're more open to it and hopefully we will get there. And, and I will say like, my department was incredible. Like when I went through my stuff and it's only gotten better. It. We're more self aware, they're more open to it. There's more programs out there. They're very, instead of reactive, proactive, which is good. And that it seems to be the case with departments all around the nation and we hope it keeps going that way.

[Jocko Willink]

So firefighting, you say you work 72 hours on.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And, and then four days off. Something along those lines.

[Rob Black]

It depends on if you have vacation or we'll have like a drop week. So it'll only be 48 days.

[Jocko Willink]

So 72 hours on straight and then you only get four days off. Like that's a lot of work in one month. Do you do that? That's the schedule all the time. There's no time where it's more than.

[Rob Black]

Four days and it rotates. Oh well, there's like when the fires pop off, like there's a thing called the staffing pattern which you'll get stuck on duty for, for resources. The only thing that'll get you home is, is if you have what's called the like annual vacation, like we call it aav. So you'll get sent home if you have vacation, but other than that, it's just a hold all. But there, there, it's like when all the fires were popping off and do.

[Jocko Willink]

You need to do, do you get overtime?

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

So you work 40 hours straight and then whatever the other 32 hours you're getting overtime pay or.

[Rob Black]

No, our pay is all combined together. So it's all calculated together and it's all like through our bargaining unit and like through the union. So our, we have planned overtime. So anything past that is time and a half. So the money's good. But like we're, we're starting to see like the generation that, that wants to go home, they want to like have families and get time off.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

So it's good. And like I said, our department, it's hopefully going in the right direction with like dropping another day and going to 48 on and then 96 off or whatever the, the pattern will be. Whatever it, whatever it turns out to be, it's, it's a move in the right direction because they've noticed that, that it's hard on the firefighters. And I know everyone's like, oh yeah, poor firefighters. But like it's.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, in a three day days all the time, over and over again. That's. That seems like a lot to me.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, it can be, but it's a lot of fun. I love it. Yeah, I love it.

[Jocko Willink]

Now how do you like, compartmentalize what you're doing at work? You're seeing people that are, you know, ODing, getting hit by cars, suffering all these medical problems plus fires and the whole nine yards. Do you have some kind of a protocol for like separating what you're doing at work and not dragging that home with you?

[Rob Black]

Usually on my first day home, I'll like go sleep. Usually if I'm tired, it like it gets worse. It can like perpetuate things. So my wife has noticed it. Like, hey, go take a nap. Like you're tired, you need to go sleep. And like I said, I'm just more open about how I'm feeling. Like I'll say like, hey, like I feel like really angry right now. Like I just feel like amped up. She'll tell me, like, go for A run, go out, go do something. Like, I'm just, I'm more open with like how I'm feeling when as before, I felt like it was a problem.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, do you get a chance to PT when you're doing 72 hours on.

[Rob Black]

Yeah. So you get union mandated one hour every day. But that's for like, that's only if God can we edit that out. True.

[Jocko Willink]

So you get, do you get a chance to. Do you get a chance to PT during the day?

[Rob Black]

So one hour every day is dedicated to pt. So we'll like go to the gym. We have a gym at the stations. We. Some guys will go like play basketball, just have fun with it.

[Jocko Willink]

What? But if you get a call, obviously that's.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, then you gotta go. And obviously like mission dependent. Like if there's a big fire that.

[Jocko Willink]

Breaks out and then how much sleep do you get usually? Generally Speaking, on a 72 hour whatever cycle, how much sleep do you think you get?

[Rob Black]

There's some shifts where like it's super quiet at night, like where we're not getting that many calls. And then there's just some shifts where it's like pound town.

[Jocko Willink]

So it takes a little bit of luck of the draw. Like Friday, Saturday.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, like there's times where like Tuesday, it'll be like a Tuesday. I'll be like, what is happening? Like there's, there's no rhyme or reason. And like I said, I work in the city of Marino Valley. Like that place is always busy and I love it. So it's, it's just luck of the draw because you could go work at a busy house and run. Like I remember why my wife came out and she rode out with us on the engine. We didn't run a call till 4 o' clock and she was like, I thought this place was busy. And I'm like, it is like typically. But of course she's there. We don't run any calls. But typically you just, you get really good at naps. It's like being in the military. I could sleep anywhere. Like at Warped Tour, I slept next to a fence, I slept on a tree. Like you get really good at taking naps. So.

[Jocko Willink]

And what advice do you have for kids that want to go and be firefighters? What's a good, what's a good stepping stones? How should they make that happen?

[Rob Black]

Right now is a great time because just like everywhere, like in the workforce, they're just having a hard time like finding people you could look at, like your local fire departments. The Explorer program is great. If you're between the ages of 14 and they say 21. If you're above the age of 18, try and get into, like, a reserve program. But looking at your local community college, seeing if they offer any fire science classes, go to your local fire department, be like, hey, man, I'm interested in being a firefighter. Like, I said, hit me up on Instagram. I'll send you the websites, whatever information you guys need. But now is a great time to try and get a job as a fireman because. Because we've hit this, like, precipice of, like, the seasoned firefighter is kind of like a dying breed. Like, there. There used to be this culture of, like, guys would work as a fireman, like just a straight fireman for years and years and years. And it was always respected. And now it's. The population has grown so much and the departments are getting so big that guys are promoting a little faster. So we're having this, like, in the interim, we're just having, like, a lot of movement and a lot of structure, and it's good because we're growing. But right now, it's kind of like a dying breed. Like, when I. So at my department, I worked on an engine for several years, and then I got to, you know, like, the big ladder truck with, like, the driver in the front and, like, the driver in the back. I finally made it to, like, the driver in the back. Well, my fireman, Sean Tauscher, he's like, if you took a computer and you built a fireman, like, that was my partner. And then I'm this goofball paramedic that, like, comes along and be like, hey, I'm on the fire truck now. And it was. It was like being in Iraq, man, like, trying to learn the scouts jobs and, like, trying to follow along. Like, I never realized how bad I was at my job until you're with someone that is, like, a master of the craft. And then I was with guys like Dallas Smith, Matt Bryant, he's a big jiu jitsu guy, too. So my captain that I worked with, he's a blue belt. He's kind of a big deal. Heck, yeah. Love loves your show, too. So he's going to love the shout out.

[Jocko Willink]

And you were what, Firefighter of the year.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And how did you. How did you manage to get fired?

[Rob Black]

They ran out of people, so they. They ran out of people to vote for. Definitely wasn't based on looks, that's for sure. Yeah, I like to be organized, so I like to come up with, like, Trainings and things. And I kind of put myself out there. I'm on, like, a training cadre with, like, the new hire firefighters. And I think your peers just slowly noticed that kind of thing and they took a vote and luckily I won it.

[Jocko Willink]

And then you're also teaching at a community college and teaching what, firefighting?

[Rob Black]

Paramedics. So I help teach. I'm an adjunct faculty, and then I help teach new paramedics and EMTs wherever I can feel. I don't do that as often as I would like, but I go in there whenever I can. I love it because it, like, rejuvenates me to back when I went to paramedic school and how much I loved it. Like, that was probably one of the best years of my life. Being there and seeing those kids and, like, how excited they are and, like, all the questions that they have, they're like, well, what happens when you do this? And you're like, like, it's cool. Like, it, like, it's. It's fun. And just seeing, like, the new generation, like, coming up, I will say, like, the younger generation, they're so technologically advanced and so smart and quick with recall. Like, you could sit these students down and be like, tell me everything you know about magnesium. Tell me everything you know about calcium chloride. They'll bam, bam, bam. They're like, smoking them, like, out of the water. But if you sit them down in front of a Vietnam veteran and they have to do this, like, talk like, total collapse. They don't have the interpersonal skills because to no fault of their own, they grew up with cell phones and texting. They don't. They don't have the element of human connection that, like, our generation had.

[Jocko Willink]

You can, you can see that, huh?

[Rob Black]

Oh, 100%. They're. They blow us out of the water with smarts. But it's the hard part is applying, like, what they know in the book and being so analytical into real life. Like, or knowing when, like, someone's gaming you. Like, if someone's trying to, like, pull one over on you. Just, like, the street smarts of it. Like, you know what I mean? If someone's being a smart ass and, like, not answering your questions, like, that's where I see students, like, struggle. So we'll take paramedic students and it's like, dude, like, you have the knowledge. It's just applying it. But I love, I love teaching because it reminds me of when I was like that too. Like, learning, like, oh, man, I can't wait to get out there. That Excitement and that drive. Because, like, if we could just harness, like, the younger generation of, like, paramedics and firefighters, because they're excited, they just need direction, and it's. It's just helping them and guiding that enthusiasm. And especially with, like, the fire department, we've. I hope we implement, like, a search culture. And what I mean by that is victim rescue first. Like, a victim rescue first mentality. So over the years, like, especially with, like, the. The economy and, like, how people are having trouble finding employees, like, the fire department is no stranger to that as well. Like, we're like, collateral. Like, we're having trouble finding people, too. And like I said, like, the dying breed is still the dying breed of, like, strong career firemen. So we're getting, like, these newer guys. And in the fire department, we've kind of taken, like, a defensive posture, like, to where we're quick to pull the trigger on. Like, all right, let's just go defensive. Like, let's not, like, really risk a lot, but. So by implementing a search culture, just aggressive search tactics, when we pull up first on scene to a structure fire, like, that should be our first thought. And that's what I'm trying to, like, push to this younger generation. And I love it because it's out there. They just need the guidance and, like, the backing from, like, they need, like, the support from it. Understanding it.

[Jocko Willink]

So when you show up to a fire and your first instinct in your should be like, we need to make sure there's no one in there.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, let's just make sure. Like, don't be so quick to pull the trigger. Like, ah, let's just go defensive. Like, hey, let's get in there and do it. An aggressive freaking search. Like, let's do victim search right now.

[Jocko Willink]

And some of that judgment's based on what the structure is, right? It's nighttime and it's in an industrial area, you're like, yeah, there's probably no one in there but you. Like, no, we got to search it anyway.

[Rob Black]

It's all knowledge, skills, ability. Like, if you've been there, done that before, you know the layout of the land. Like, hey, this is in my first due. Like, I know this building super well. The. The homeless population usually hangs out, like, back here. Let's go search. Like. Like, let's get this search mentality back. So the younger generation loves it. We just need to guide them in that direction, and that's what I hope for. Like, I get excited about it, man, because I love it. Like, that's the best job in the world was being on a truck company and, like, getting off and doing a search. Like a nice. Like, not nice, but, like, a good, aggressive search and just having an aggressive fire culture, even with paramedicine. Like, let's be aggressive with it. Like, let's make a difference with these patients. Like, it is the worst day of their life. That's why they called 911. Let's give them the treatment that they deserve. Let's give them the medicine. Let's be aggressive as a culture. So it's just hoping to instill that, because I hope to leave the fire service better than I found it. And luckily, I found out that I love teaching as well. Do I have all the answers? Absolutely not. But I'm pretty good at finding them out. And, like, no. By no means. Am I like, a martyr or am I speaking on behalf of, like, all fire departments or anyone at all? This is just my personal opinion and what I see and what I hope for. So I hope no one's like, hey, man, what's this guy talking about? It's. This is just what I see, and that's my hopes and purely just my personal opinion.

[Jocko Willink]

No, it's awesome.

[Rob Black]

I want to be aggressive.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, That's. I got friends in the fire department, and I've worked with fire departments all over the country. Really. And. And my company, Echelon Front, goes and works with fire departments, and love seeing that attitude of, like, we're gonna fight the fires, we're gonna make things happen. And that's. That's badass. And it's bad.

[Rob Black]

Doors down. Get a good interior attack going. Get horizontal ventilation going. Like, let's rock this thing. Let's put this thing out. Like, let's not just let it burn to the ground. Like, let's get in there, guys, like, talk on the radio, coordinate this thing and put it to bed.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. And they did. They. The firefighters. The San Diego firefighters saved my gym. You know, the building. I mean, it got damaged, a lot of damage, but they were. They fought that fire. I mean, they went inside, they had guys on the roof. They had to do what you call it. Vertical.

[Rob Black]

Yeah. Like, horizontal ventilation. That's when they're on the roof. Or like, you could do.

[Jocko Willink]

They cut big holes in the roof to get the heat out of there so the firefighters could get close, stop it. Like they did. They did a full debrief with me, walking me through the whole thing, how they fought it.

[Rob Black]

You're turning me on.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it was pretty freaking.

[Rob Black]

Just some roof ops.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, dude, they would have thought they. It's all repaired now. But I mean there was. They were up there with the chainsaw saw, big holes through it all. And, and they were in communications because the guys that were in the fire, they couldn't get close enough because it was too hot. So they called those guys like more holes. Get more out of there. And, and they were able to save the building.

[Rob Black]

Heck yeah. Yeah. A coordinated attack. Like so that's what we're talking about. Get holes in the roof, get lines in. Coordinated attack. Get it over with.

[Jocko Willink]

You could see when they took me in for the debrief, you could see where they had, where they were running their fingers along the wall. Like there was a big mirrors in the locker room and you could see there's soot all over. You could see where they were following the wall because there was. They couldn't see in there cuz it was too smoky.

[Rob Black]

Oh heck no. So that, that's what's scary is like going into them. Like you're visibility is like super low. So you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. I love it, man.

[Jocko Willink]

I did. I worked apartment and I, I didn't do it. But they have like the. Some kind of. I don't know what they'd call it, but it's like a maze.

[Rob Black]

Oh, confidence box. Yeah, confidence where you get falling through there and they're trapped on purpose. Like when we do it, we'll like tie stuff around like their breather, like their bottle, like to get them trapped. Because it's all about, it's all about like what we've been talking about. Like I'm okay. Like I'm okay. I just need to like back up, pull it off my bottle and like get through this.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Have you ever seen one of those things, Carrie?

[C]

Negative.

[Jocko Willink]

It looks like you know, like a little rat maze, but it goes up and down and like little tiny holes you got to get through and they fill it with smoke. You can see it's not, it's not a, not, not one for a claustrophobic dude. Like tight spaces.

[Rob Black]

It's fun. I'm a big dude, but I love stuff like that. It. It's fun and like they'll, they'll have like a slide on it. They'll put objects like we have barrels that will push over. It's cool. It's just meant to show you like that you are safe in your gear to get that confidence that when you are putting out your gym, like you are safe. Like trust your equipment.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

It's badass, man. Like, I. I have a lot of hope for, like, the future of, like, the fire department, fire, ems. Like, it's a great culture. It. Right now is a great time to get started in it. So if anyone's aspiring, please, like, reach out. I'll give you whatever I have.

[Jocko Willink]

Right on, right on. I'm awesome. Does that get us up to speed? That's where we're at. What's your. What's your Instagram you were talking about?

[Rob Black]

My Instagram is a R E o h b e 84.

[Jocko Willink]

What the hell does that mean?

[Rob Black]

Oh, wait, it's 1984, so it's my name phonetically. A R E is R, O H is O, B E is B.

[Jocko Willink]

So it's like 1984.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, 1984. What do you mean? What is that? You have a guy on here named Echo Charles.

[Jocko Willink]

That's true, but that's his actual name.

[Rob Black]

No, I know, but what kind of name is that? Yeah, it's 1984.

[Jocko Willink]

So a R E O H O.

[Rob Black]

H, b e. 1984. Or just search Rob Black on Facebook. I don't know everything. I'll never claim to know everything, but I can help whoever.

[Jocko Willink]

So we got the. Before we. Before we wrap up, we got the 11 AD Ramadi reunion taking place in January of 2026. Everybody that was there and spouses and gold star families are all invited to come. There's been, you know, guys from basically every unit were. We're been in contact. We're having meetings, getting it all set up. General McFarland's, you know, he's.

[Rob Black]

That's a big deal.

[Jocko Willink]

He's still. He's still in charge.

[Rob Black]

Yohane.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, and. And just awesome. And it's been very cool to reconnect with a bunch of those. And that's how I got in touch with Dan Pinion. Like, there's. I got a few more guys from Ramadi lined up to come on the podcast. But yeah, if anybody's listening to this that was in Ramadi, please look up. It's a ready first reunion. And look it up. It's. There's a Facebook, there's a website, trying to get people to register right now. There's an Instagram. It'd be awesome to see you all down there, to see everyone again. It's been wild, you know, because there's. There's, like, going. We have these. One of the Zoom calls, right, with all the dudes. And, you know, some of them were, like, enlisted guys, but some of them are the commanders, you know, and Everybody in between, and it's wild to sit down and you haven't seen these guys in almost 20 years. Because it's a 20 year reunion. You haven't seen these guys in 20 years. But, you know, it's just like I have the instant feeling that we're in a brigade meeting.

[Rob Black]

Yeah. It's like nothing's changed. Like.

[Jocko Willink]

Yes, there you are. Yes, sir. Roger that. Is it funny how taking lead on that. Yeah, it's just like, boom.

[Rob Black]

Isn't it funny how the leadership is still the leadership, like even 20 years later, like the. The role players are still doing the role playing. Yeah. I had no idea like, like what we were saying, like going into Ramadi, like, I didn't even know what a cop was. Like, what do you mean? We're building combat outposts. Like, what the heck does that mean?

[Jocko Willink]

Dude, I cannot believe that was your. Your. Welcome to the army. You're gonna, oh, train up to be in an aid station? Oh, no, actually, no. You're gonna be the brigade recon troop. What does that mean? Oh, it means you're gonna be going out.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And going in overwatch because it's just nuts, man.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And. And seeing what you've done and seeing you look what the struggles you've gone through. I think a lot of guys have been through that and it'll be. It'll be awesome to sit down and meet and greet with a bunch of people that we haven't seen in 20 years.

[Rob Black]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

I know you said you haven't logged in for your vacation time yet.

[Rob Black]

We bid in October, but let's go. Oh, absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

Somebody give this guy some time off up there.

[Rob Black]

No, I'll get it.

[Jocko Willink]

It's going to be freaking legit so people can find you. There's your. Your Instagram. A R E O H B E 1984. Carrie, you got any questions?

[C]

I did have one question. So, Sein White White album. Anthony Green.

[Jocko Willink]

What.

[C]

What are your opinions on that album?

[Rob Black]

I just saw Anthony Gree at when we were young. It still got it right on. He's in a new band. I forget what it's called. We saw them. They opened up for Taking Back Sunday and the Used. We went to that, like, concert on the Friday night.

[C]

Yeah, but Circus Survive, maybe.

[Rob Black]

Yeah. So that was his side project. Right, right. Circa Man. You're taking it back. I love like the song Seven years. Bury your head. They perched on stilts. Oh, man. Love it.

[C]

We. We actually caught a. Me and a buddy of mine caught a Circus Survive show. No way in In LA a few years back and it was awesome, man. Anthony Green still got it for sure.

[Rob Black]

Good energy. Like he. He puts on a good. Like he's just a energetic dude. Like in his stage presence is really good.

[C]

100%. What's the playlist looking like now? Like, what do you got going on?

[Rob Black]

For me, yeah, it's the same garbage I've been listening to. Like, I'm so stuck in the. Like, if I try and get into new bands, I'm like, I'm just to go back to what I love. Like the Rufio still yellow card blink 118. Like all the right on typical bands that I. I still love.

[C]

Nice. I got caught up in, you know, post hardcore 2003 to like 2009.

[Rob Black]

That's what's hardcore.

[C]

And that's just. Yeah, you mentioned A Day to Remember too.

[Rob Black]

Freaking still the all time low. Me and my wife saw Avril Lavine last year.

[C]

That's awesome. Yeah, I. I did definitely a little bit of the used too.

[Rob Black]

Oh, we saw them live with Taking Back Sunday. Holy smokes. Incredible. Like one of the best shows I've ever seen. My. Like, it sounded like the album. Like it was. You know, when you see bands and sometimes it's like disappointing. Like, man, that kind of sucks. It sounded like the album. They were incredible.

[C]

Right on. Yeah, I went hard.

[Rob Black]

I went harder.

[C]

The harder route. But definitely those guys were in the mix.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[C]

In on the chill days. Throwing on some CSN or. Yeah, anything.

[Rob Black]

Oh, sorry.

[C]

No, no, no.

[Rob Black]

Big, big dick over here. My bad. Sorry, sorry.

[Jocko Willink]

I went a little harder.

[Rob Black]

Yeah, sorry. I like Real Music Guy. I'm putting up 225 for sets, bro. My bad.

[C]

Repping it up.

[Rob Black]

Have you guys had a carb since the Bush administration? Like, Jesus Christ. What are you guys eating? Elk over here? God damn elk and milk. Yeah, just beefy. God, make me insecure, Jack. What else?

[Jocko Willink]

Carry.

[C]

That was it?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Nothing else? No. No freaking deep Ramadi questions. I always wondered like, for you guys, for like you sitting here because you. Because you've been hanging around for so long and just he, you know, sitting here with someone that was seeing like my guys from the outside and what did we look like? I'm always curious, like, what. You know, what was that? You kind of gave us, you know, some of that today, like rolling organized.

[C]

It's always. It's always cool to like get another piece of the picture as somebody on the outside looking in. Where we hear from the task unit bruiser guys, right? And then we hear from the leadership, General McFarland, you know, and some of the other key leaders. And then we, we hear from some of the Marines and the army guys that were on the ground. It's just all these different perspectives that paint this picture of what it was like in the battle of Ramadi. One of the things that you brought up today that I thought was super cool, Rob, was what it was like to go meet with and plan with the seals. You know, we know what it's like from the bruiser side. I feel like as a listener, you, you've described how you presented that to the bruiser guys, where it's like, hey, we're going to be squared away. We're going to be in uniforms, we're going to have haircuts. Every. Everything's going to be super squared away. But to see it from the army perspective too, where it's like, oh, we gotta wash our, our stuff and make sure we're.

[Rob Black]

Well, you're going into a, into the seals talk like you're being one. You're being invited in. So you're like, oh, like, I hope we don't screw this up. And then you need to instill that. Like, can we trust these turds? Like, if we show up and we look like a bag of ass, they're gonna be like, these are the guys watching our outer cordon.

[Jocko Willink]

Like, what's funny is that's exactly the same thoughts we had. Like, you know, we were like, we need to show these guys that we're squared away. Oh, and, and the other thing is, is, like, we looked at you guys the whole time. We looked at all the conventional units. Like, oh, cool, we're gonna go do an op. It's gonna take us an hour. Maybe we'll do an overwatch. It's gonna take us 24, maybe 48 hours, maybe 72 hours. We'll be out there and then we'll go back and we'll. We have air conditioned spaces and we got, you know, my guys had the video game freaking thing set up and we got decent chow, and it's like, oh, yeah, when we're back, you guys are gonna go back out again. And then you're gonna back out again, and then you're gonna go back out again. And so we knew that you guys were just getting after it every single day. And that's why we had so much respect for you guys. And that's why we did everything we could to, to support you guys as much as we, we possibly could. I know, I got some, some more Battalion commanders coming on in the near future. And it was the same thing. Like for us, you know, for us being in a SEAL platoon, like we, we got 30, 40 seals, you know what I mean? When we're doing a big operation, it's 30, 40 seals. When we're going to battalion op orders where there's 700 freaking dudes going in Iraqi army, US army, 30 or 40 or 50 armor pieces going in, bro, it's like you're in a movie. Like I was in heaven. I was like, this is freaking.

[Rob Black]

Well, that's what you guys, you guys live for that like that's why you guys join the SEALs.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is no. And I, I talked about this with General McFarlane, but everybody feels the same way. It's like the inter service rivalry that you hear about is like, just was not there, you know, it's like, what do you guys need? How can we help? We're here to support and, and that's the way it had to be.

[Rob Black]

That is true. Like the humility amongst like the, the CO ops, like how everything was working out like at least. And I was, I was very like, Dan's going to give you the, the perspective from like the leadership and like how he was running his platoons. I was just, the only thing I needed to worry about was like, did I have rounds in my rifle and did I have a couple IVs and some band aids?

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah.

[Rob Black]

So it just like filling in those gaps and like giving the different perspective. Like I hope I provided that.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, for sure, for sure. And we've had, we've had a few of the frontline dudes here, you know, just front line soldiers that were out there getting after it, getting after it and then getting after it some more. That's what you guys were doing. It was freaking. It was, we watched in awe as you guys, as you guys did your thing. So. Anything else, Carrie?

[Rob Black]

No, sir.

[Jocko Willink]

Freaking epic. Rob, any, any final thoughts, brother?

[Rob Black]

I, I just hope if, if anyone is listening. Do not give up. It does get better. I know it sounds very like you've heard it before. During like my darkest times, I did rely on a lot of my friends that I've had like lifelong friendships with and they were all there for me. I could never repay them for what they did for me, my wife, my, my kids. Like there is hope. Do not give up. You aren't a worthless piece of shit. Like it's okay to be depressed. It's okay to be have good days, have bad days and it happens. And it's going to keep happening over and over again. Like, it's a lifelong journey with this, like, mental health crap. And we can all get through it together, like, as a community. Military, fire, police, ems. Like, we, we. If we all band together, like, there's nothing that we can't do. God, that sounds super, like, lame, right? It sounds like a.

[Jocko Willink]

It also sounds super true.

[Rob Black]

No, it truly is, but it sounds, like, very gimmicky.

[Jocko Willink]

You know, we just talk about being on the battlefield and how it's like, hey, whatever you need, we're there. We'll support each other. And it's the same exact thing you're talking about.

[Rob Black]

It truly is. And. And my Instagram's out there. I'll give you guys, like, my information if you want to put it up. Like, if any. If anyone has any questions about, like, the fire department, EMS getting into it, if I can help in any way, shape or form, like, at least guide you in the direction, because I. I never have all the answers, but. But I will try and find all of them. I have a lot of resources, too, like, a lot of friends that. That could help me out as well.

[Jocko Willink]

It's awesome, man. Well, great, great final words, man. Don't ever give up, man.

[Rob Black]

Never.

[Jocko Willink]

Thanks for joining us. Thanks for sharing your experiences. It's just awesome. Awesome to see you. Thanks for your service in radius. As I said, man, it was an honor to watch you guys. It was an honor to serve alongside you guys and. And know that we were mutually supporting each other on the battlefield and we can still mutually support each other now.

[Rob Black]

Absolutely.

[Jocko Willink]

So we'll never forget you guys. We'll never forget the heroes that you guys lost. And thanks for your service in the fire department as well. I know it's a hell of a job. And thanks for continuing to lead and serve to this day, brother. Thank you.

[Rob Black]

Thank you. Thank you for having me on and thank you for this opportunity. I. I truly appreciate it.

[Jocko Willink]

Awesome.

[Rob Black]

Thank you.

[Jocko Willink]

And with that, Rob Black has left the building. Freaking awesome to see him. It's going to be awesome to see all of you that served in Radi with us down in Texas in January, come to the reunion. The Ramadi reunion. It's. It's gonna be epic seeing everybody. They got music planned, they got events planned. I think there's some kind of golf activity going down, so if you can, you know, try and make it happen, it's gonna be. It's gonna be really cool. It's been very cool to see all the. A bunch of the people on these Zoom calls that we're doing. So if you can make it down, look, look at the, you know, Rob, great guy, you know, clearly had some struggles, had some stuff to get through. And, and like he said, don't give up. And like he also said, you know, we support each other on the battlefield. Let's keep supporting each other. You know, let's keep supporting each other. So if you were there with us, if you're a gold star family, please come down to Texas for the ready first Ramadi radio reunion. We look forward to seeing you there, and that's what we're doing. Also, I know that, Carrie, you've been, you've been struggling a little bit lately. Not so much with mental health, but more with trying to hit your, hit your protein activities, right? Is that what, is that what we're doing?

[C]

Well, struggling in a good way, I would say it's not like a, a bad struggle. You know, we're just trying to hit goals and, and you know, sometimes that's.

[Jocko Willink]

Challenging because Rob was talking about the beef in the room, right? Rob was talking about that. So we trying to, what are you trying to hit protein wise?

[C]

So 200 grams, you know, trying to hit 200 grams a day. And what I, a while back, I.

[Jocko Willink]

I, So what are you going with 1 gram per pound of body, Lean body weight or of ideal weight or some, something like that?

[C]

Roughly.

[Jocko Willink]

That's what you're doing.

[C]

Roughly. But 200 grams, I started tracking it again a little while back. I go through these folks phases, right, where I'm like super dialed into my tracking and then life happens, right? We get busy. So started tracking again and I, I noticed that my protein was way down. I was, you know, getting like 120, 125 grams. Just because I'm only eating two meals, right? I'm skipping breakfast. I'm doing like a big lunch, big dinner type thing.

[Jocko Willink]

How many grams are you getting? 125.

[C]

It was like, it was roughly 125 because it was two portions of meat a day, right?

[Jocko Willink]

And, and one of those portions wasn't a four pound steak, four pound piece of ribbon ribeye.

[C]

And that was before. And you throw like a protein shake on top of that, right? So that gets you to like 130, 130 grams. It's like we got to get those numbers up.

[Jocko Willink]

Those are rookie numbers.

[Rob Black]

Rookie numbers.

[C]

Gotta get those numbers up.

[Jocko Willink]

So how many molks a day does it take to get your numbers?

[C]

So I'm kind of fortunate, right, Because I'm at the Jocko Fuel media offices and we, we kind of got the goods. Right?

[Jocko Willink]

So I can get that stash.

[C]

So we get that.

[Jocko Willink]

Know what I texted the other day? Are you in the office?

[C]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I needed? What? I needed Jaco Fuel. I was low, I was low on iced te Lemonade energy and I was going to be like bro, I'm going to swing by there and grab a little something, something that stash. Yeah, I ordered it. By the way, if you order Jocko Fuel right now, like I just ordered, I ordered four cases of icy lemonade. Go.

[Rob Black]

Let's go.

[Jocko Willink]

And it's here like I, it's like here in three days, something like that. So we, we got you covered. So do you, Are you making those kind of super power shakes too? Like protein shakes with. Do you put three scoops in?

[C]

I've triple scooped and so it's RTD usually in the morning or you know, early afternoon and then in the evenings before the meal I'll, I'll hit another like shake blender style and double scoop for sure. Sometimes you get, you get crazy. Get that third one in. But that helps with consistency too. You get that like milkshake.

[Jocko Willink]

What flavor you going?

[C]

Chocolate. All day.

[Jocko Willink]

All day.

[C]

I, I've been, I've been heavy on the chocolate train.

[Jocko Willink]

Uhhuh. Yeah, I got some. Have you tried the pro series yet?

[C]

I've tried the pre workout and I gave, I gave Ashley at Jocko fuel like a 4 paragraph feedback.

[Jocko Willink]

Cuz you were so hyped.

[C]

I was so hyped, man. It is insane.

[Jocko Willink]

The, the protein is, it's, it's really, really delicious. So we got, we had a pro series coming out anyways, all the stuff that we're talking about, you need some fuel. You need Jocko fuel. You need energy, you need hydration, you need protein, you need cold protection. Immunity, protection. We got you cover. Go to jockey fuel.com and check that out. Also you can check out origin USA.com. i know. So I sacrificed my Chelsea boots which Echo is upset about apparently. I never would picture Echo. First of all, it's hard to even picture Echo wearing any types of shoes at all. If he is, he's wearing those, whatever those Converse like elastic Chuck, no laces. That's what he sports or slippers, you know, flip flops as we call them. But I, in front of him, I gave you the Chelsea boots, bro. He's holding the grid. He's holding a grudge.

[C]

I watched it on his face, face like as you passed me the boots. Like his Expression dropped. He was, he was upset.

[Jocko Willink]

But they're working out for you?

[C]

Oh, dude.

[Rob Black]

Yeah.

[C]

So we had a little. We had a little date night scenario the other day. And yeah, I, I had to shoot you a picture afterwards because those are so clutch when. And I'm not, I'm not a super fashionable guy, you know, but you know, little button up, whatever, short sleeve, button up some jeans and I throw you out. I throw on those Chelsea boots, man, and it is, it is game over. Compliments from G Money on those. So, yeah, big, big fan. Those Chelsea boots are insanely comfortable.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, they are. They are comfortable. I did try them on before. I gave them away. They're just not really my. You know, to say I have some style of some kind is kind of a weird thing to even say. But they're not something I would be wearing, right? So I'm not gonna just have them sitting there in my closet. I wear the, the mock toes kind of. That's what I wear right now.

[Rob Black]

Uniform.

[Jocko Willink]

And then obviously Origin jeans all day. You know, they have. I got the first where my wife got a pair of the test pair of female Origin jeans. So those are common and they're like. My wife was freaking pumped. She was like, dude, these are great. These fit perfect and blah, blah, blah. So we got some, we got some ladies jeans on the way. I think we're gonna run like 3 or 4, 000 pairs, something like that. So we'll let you all know. But the thing is, the stuff's made in America, of course. 100 so you don't have to have something that's embedded with a communist. Communist threads.

[C]

Communism free.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, it's communism free. 100 so there you go. Originusa.com. hey, speaking of fashion, you're wearing a jocko store shirt. The sugar coated lies shirt. What, what is that, Krispy Kreme or something? This is the gank.

[C]

This is a rip of the Krispy Kreme logo. But this is actually a shirt locker shirt. So this is one of the kind of cool designs that you will see in your shirt locker subscription. And of course this one especially every time I wear it, people are like, where do I get that? You know, I gotta, gotta let them know.

[Jocko Willink]

Let them know. Sterlo locker. Check out jocastore.com if you need anything to wear. We got you covered there. Books. I've written a bunch of books. But also, once again, Daniel Pinion, command sergeant major, retired. He wrote this book called Chop that Up, which is the best title. And when you get the story behind that title, you'll, you'll know what it's all about. But check out this book. You heard some of, some of it today with Rob Black, also covered it on the podcast. But check out the book, man. Great book from a great guy. And then Echelon Front, you know, we talked about some of the things that we experienced in Ramadi today. And you know, there was a lot of lessons learned, a lot of lessons learned from a leadership perspective. And we took those lessons and we eventually started teaching these lessons learned to. Well, originally we taught them to seals, and then once I retired, we started teaching them to civilian companies and teams and whatever. So they caught, they caught on because they're effective, they're approved in combat, and they'll work. No matter what leadership endeavor you're into, they will help you. So echelonfront.com, we got leadership consulting, we got events that we do, we do keynote speeches. We will help you in your leadership journey and it'll improve every aspect of your life. And then also embedded in Echelon Front, we have extreme ownership.com, which is an online leadership school. And so many people, so much good feedback on it. So leadership is everything. Leadership is everything that you're doing. If you're interacting with other human beings, you're leading. So check out echelonfront.com check out extreme ownership.com and we got you covered. Also, if you want to help service members, you know, you, we, we lost Mark Lee in Ramadi on August 2nd. And Mark's mom, she turned that into the most positive thing you could imagine, which is her charity, America's Mighty Warriors. Incredible organization, helps out so many veterans. If you want to help or you want to support, you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org again. You can hear the struggles that Rob went through. It's tough, tough when guys come home and heroes and horses.org takes guys, takes veterans, takes them up into the mountains. I think it's a 41 day vision quest. You get a horse and then you break the horse or whatever. I don't, I think they call it breaking. Maybe they have a nicer word for it now because it's different. They do it in a different way. It's like you, you build a relationship with the horse and the horse starts to trust you and then you can ride the horse and then you ride the horse in the backcountry for 41 days of Montana. It's freaking awesome. Great impact. On people. So check out heroes and horses.org and then Jimmy May has got an organization beyond the Brotherhood. Again, it's beyond the brotherhood dot org. It's taking guys that gotta get out of the SEAL teams that need to move on to the next chapter of their life. So you can, you can check that out as well if you want to connect with us. So here's Rob Black. He made a lot of real generous offers, you know, for people that want to reach out to him. Whether you need some help, you know, with your mental health, need some help getting into the fire department, becoming a paramedic, emt, whatever. He's obviously a super generous guy. And he's on Instagram and he's at a R E O H B E 1984. And if you want to connect with us, you can check out jocko.com and on social media, I'm Ocko Willink carries HarryHelton. Just be careful. Don't waste a bunch of time on there. It'll wreck your life. Once again, thanks to Rob Black for joining us. Grateful for your service as a firefighter and as a soldier. It was a hell of a fight there in Ramadi, the fact that you were 21 years old and you and your crew just stood tall and took to the fight to the. Took the fight to the enemy. It was an honor to serve with all of you. Thanks, all of our military personnel out there around the globe right now with a reverent salute to the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines, the ready first Brigade Combat Team for the blood, sweat and sacrifice in that godforsaken city. Thank you for what you did over there. And I hope to see all of you at the reunion in Texas, January, 2026, 20 years. I'll see you there. And finally, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, all of you, first responders out there every day, just like Rob Black. Some cases with Rob Black. Thanks for keeping us safe here at home. And for everyone else out there, just remember what Rob closed out with. Don't give up. Don't give up. There's going to be some high points, there's going to be some low points. They're going to come, they're going to go, but don't. No matter what, don't give up. That's all I got until next time. This is Kerry and Jocko out.