Jocko Podcast 503 Summary

Title: Delta Force, Mogadishu, and the Legacy of Black Hawk Down.
Date: August 27, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink
Guest: Norm "Hoot" Hooten

Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Jocko Willink sits down with retired Delta Force operator Norm “Hoot” Hooten to discuss a lifetime of experience in Special Operations, culminating in his pivotal role during the Battle of Mogadishu—immortalized in "Black Hawk Down." Hooten shares raw accounts of his tumultuous childhood, his entry into the Army, Green Beret and Delta selection, combat in Panama, the Gulf War, and—most extensively—his memories and lessons from Mogadishu. The conversation extends into leadership, adaptation in Special Operations, post-military transitions, and the enduring impact of combat on veterans and their families.

The episode is characterized by vivid storytelling, insight into the evolution of special operations tactics, and profound reflections on loss, adaptation, and legacy.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Early Life & Upbringing (02:44–18:31)

• Tough West Texas Childhood:
  Hooten describes growing up with little supervision on a ranch near Bracketville, Texas, with simple rules: "be back before dark and don’t play with rattlesnakes" (03:32). He recalls a family legacy entwined with violence and bootlegging.
• Chaotic Family Dynamics:
  His father was frequently jailed (bootlegging, fighting, homicide-related incidents), shaping Norm's early exposure to violence:
  "Violence doesn't scare me, but the consequences do, because I know what it did to my family." (07:40)

2. Joining the Army: Finding a Path (18:31–40:22)

• Aimlessness to Enlistment:
  Lacking direction, working odd jobs, and ending up in trouble—"Stopped in East Texas running whiskey for my dad" (19:57)—Hooten ultimately enlists following advice from a magistrate and a nudge from observing peer enlistments.
• First Encounters with Military Discipline:
  Norm lands in trouble quickly during Basic, describing a brawl with two South Boston buddies: "First weekend off...I've been in army eight weeks, I was in the brig." (27:29)
• Early Ambitions for Special Forces:
  Inspired by iconic images, Norm volunteers for Green Berets, struggling through the Q Course as a young "SF baby" while more seasoned soldiers dominate.
  • Quote: "Had it not been for two Marines...I would have been back on a ranch in Texas or in prison." (39:41)

3. Special Forces, Advanced Training & Early Deployments (40:22–69:00)

• Commo, Scuba, Language:
  Hooten details intense training in Morse code, Turkish (top of his language class), and grueling Special Forces dive school—"Felt like I was in the pool with cowboy boots on." (44:28)
• Deployments & Missions Pre-Delta:
  • J-sets, working in Saudi Arabia training local forces (roof shingle project).
  • Exposure to legendary Green Berets and early commando culture—“I was raised by those guys.” (44:17)

4. Transition to Delta Force (The Unit) (71:09–97:01)

• Delta Selection:
  Recruited in mid-1980s, Hooten experiences the unique secrecy and culture of the nation's first tier-one special mission unit.
  • "Selection is a never-ending process." (74:03)
• Early Operations:
  • Panama: Involvement in the operation to capture Noriega—stories of close calls, blooper reel moments, and first exposures to urban combat (81:05).
  • Gulf War: Shipboard life ("Happy I joined the Army and not the Navy!") and working joint operations with SEAL Team 6.
• Influential Relationships:
  Extensive cross-training with SEALs, Rangers, and British SAS, culminating in the Joint Operational Readiness Training Cycle that deeply integrated elite forces.

5. The Battle of Mogadishu: Black Hawk Down (110:07–183:32)

Lead-Up and Planning

• Mission Creep:
  Initially, Somalia deployment is seen as a "peacekeeping, side-mission," not the squadron's main priority (113:54).
  The team rapidly adapts as it evolves into a full-scale manhunt for Aidid.
• Fast-Paced Templated Operations:
  "We had template plans—a library to pick from so we could go in 15 minutes" (118:19)—mirrored by Jocko’s experience in Iraq.

October 3, 1993: Battle Details

• Initial Assault:
  The mission unfolds rapidly—after confirmation, "it went from being nothing to horns blowing," launching the force into Mogadishu (121:12).
• Unexpected Escalation:
  Early success is shattered when Black Hawk helicopters are hit by RPGs. "That has to be just a miracle shot..." (128:23)
• Street-to-Street Combat:
  Hooten graphically recounts team movements, confusion over comms, blue-on-blue near misses, heavy casualties, and the emotional impact—“Never just one thing, things start to compound” (129:52)
• Desperate Exfil & Lessons:
  Pinned down overnight, running out of ammo and IVs, the team is eventually reached by a makeshift UN/Mountain QRF.
  • Quote: "If Van Arsdale hadn’t made that call, I don’t know what would have happened." (160:56)
• Aftermath:
  Hooten describes the surreal return to the stadium, learning of a second crash, the challenge of incomplete information, and the lasting ache of the unit’s losses.
• Leadership Reflections:
  The psychological switch from optimism to risk-awareness in planning ("Lost my optimism after that...") and the hard lessons incorporated into subsequent SOF training and tactics (183:40).

6. Legacy of Mogadishu, Lessons Learned & Evolution of SOF (183:40–206:33)

• Major Post-battle Innovations:
  • Adoption of armored vehicles (“You can dramatically reduce casualties with proper vehicles" (188:39))
  • Integration of ballistic helmets, NVGs, and realistic force-on-force training
  • Greater interoperability between SOF branches and units
• Cultural Adaptation:
  The story of the "five monkeys" (200:44) illustrates the dangers of rigid tradition—change must be driven by experience, not inertia.

7. Post-military, Jiu Jitsu, and Life After Service (208:06–258:48)

• Transition & Education:
  Hooten recounts struggles with leaving the military, being encouraged by his wife to attend pharmacy school, ultimately contributing as a VA pharmacist focusing on substance use and PTSD among vets.
• Jiu Jitsu & Combatives:
  Hooten was instrumental in bringing Gracie Jiu-Jitsu into Delta Force pre-UFC, transforming hand-to-hand training (211:09).
  • Quote: "I learned a lot about life through Jiu Jitsu. Not a philosophical, Mr. Miyagi guy, but… you gotta learn to love the things that are good for you." (223:14)
• Veteran Outreach & Business:
  Moved by seeing substance abuse among veterans, Hooten eventually leaves the VA and enters the whiskey and cigar business (Hooten & Young). The products are deeply tied to honoring fallen comrades.

8. Closing Thoughts: Family, Service, and Legacy (258:48–end)

• Family’s Service:
  All three sons serve (Ranger, Marine, Army), and daughter prepares for law school.
• Survivor’s Guilt & Memorializing the Fallen:
  "Seeing the families when I came back and how it affected them still troubles me the most." (177:09)
• Summary Message:
  Adapt, learn lessons, honor those lost, prepare for adversity, and lead in the moment of truth.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Violence doesn’t scare me, but the consequences do—because I know what it did to my family.”
—Norm Hooten [07:40]

“If you want to talk about my childhood, that’s what I remember most… in and out of jail, man.”
—Norm Hooten [07:10]

“If it hadn’t been for two Marines… I would have been back on a ranch and probably in prison… Good kids can end up in bad places.”
—Norm Hooten [39:41]

“It was the first time I was like: this is hard.”
—Norm Hooten on the Q course [32:52]

“[Mogadishu] made us look at everything a lot harder… I lost my optimism after that. I was like, everything’s going to go wrong.”
—Norm Hooten [199:56]

“We were preparing for the war we were in, not fighting the last war.”
—Norm Hooten on changes after Somalia [191:54]

“You have to learn to love the things that are good for you, not just the things that feel good.”
—Horian Gracie (via Hooten) [223:14]

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Hooten’s Childhood & Upbringing: [02:44–18:31]
• Enlistment, Basic, Q Course & Early Special Forces: [18:31–40:22]
• Specialty Training, First Deployments: [40:22–69:00]
• Delta Force Selection & Early Ops: [71:09–97:01]
• Gulf War, Integration with SEALs & Rangers: [97:01–110:07]
• Battle of Mogadishu: Events & Aftermath: [110:07–183:32]
• Training Evolution & SOF Adaptation: [183:40–206:33]
• Post-military, VA, Combatives, Jiu Jitsu: [208:06–258:48]
• Whiskey, Business, Family, Legacy: [258:48–end]

Observations & Tone

The tone throughout is candid, gritty, often humorous in the face of adversity, and grounded in hard-won wisdom and honor for the fallen. The dynamic between Jocko and Hooten is one of deep professional and personal respect, bringing out both technical analysis and the human cost of warfare.

Suggested Listening: Standout Segments

• Hooten’s vivid recounting of the street fight in Mogadishu [127:53–152:51]
• Reflections on the cost of loss for families [177:05–183:32]
• Discussion on training, tradition, and fighting complacency in SOF [183:40–206:33]
• Bringing Gracie Jiu Jitsu to Delta, the evolution of combatives [211:09–234:29]

Closing Message

The episode serves as both a memorial to those lost in Somalia and a manual for learning, adaptation, and leadership under fire. Hooten’s journey from a chaotic Texas childhood to the pinnacle of special operations, his survival, and his lessons for future warriors underline the episode’s central message: If it can go wrong, it will—so prepare for the worst and step up to lead.