Jocko Podcast 507: Leadership and Accountability at the VA with Secretary Doug Collins

Date: September 24, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink, with Echo Charles
Guest: Secretary Doug Collins, U.S. Secretary of Veterans Affairs

Overview

In this powerful episode, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles sit down with Doug Collins—pastor, lawyer, retired Navy chaplain, veteran Air Force colonel, former U.S. Congressman, and now Secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). The wide-ranging conversation dives deep into the complexities of the VA: its mission to serve veterans, its organizational challenges, and the critical importance of leadership and accountability. Collins candidly discusses mental health issues facing veterans, his unconventional career trajectory, lessons from war and politics, and the overhaul underway at the VA.

Main Themes

• The Human Cost of Leadership Failures at the VA
• Transforming the VA: “Why?” and Accountability
• Veteran Mental Health, Transition, and Loss
• Political Lessons: Partisanship, Media, and Decision-Making
• Personal Leadership: Growth Through Adversity, Family, and Faith
• Action Steps: What Veterans and the Public Can Do

Key Discussion Points & Timeline

1. The Stakes of VA Leadership: Lives in the Balance

[00:06–03:53]

• Jocko opens with the tragic story of veteran Charles Ingram, who died by suicide after failures at the VA:
  • "When functioning correctly, the VA absolutely saves lives... But it is no easy task. And like any endeavor, leadership is the most important factor." – Jocko [02:33]
• Contrasts with a success story from another veteran:
  • "The VA literally saved my life. The only two stops left for me were death, prison, and the VA made sure I had options." [03:11]

2. Doug Collins’ Background: From Rural Georgia to Cabinet Office

[04:04–07:15]

• Grew up in North Georgia, son of a state trooper.
• Early work in ministry, sales, and military service as a Navy Chaplain.
• "I've had really the benefit, if you look at over time. I've been with Marines, Navy and Air Force. So I have a broad experience on each side." – Collins [06:02]
• Transitioned to law and politics after daughter born with spina bifida; story of faith and family courage.
  • "Don't be afraid to realize there's seasons in life and sometimes you're not ready." – Collins [08:23]

3. Life’s Transitions: Faith, Honesty, and Facing Difficult Conversations

[07:15–10:50]

• Open conversation with his wife Lisa about dissatisfaction as a pastor led to bold life moves.
  • "It's not how you make love. It's how you make war. It's how you handle the difficulties... If you don't have those honest conversations... then you're really two separate people living in the same place." – Collins [10:07]

4. Military Deployments: Balad, War Trauma, and the Chaplain’s View

[11:47–19:42]

• Deployment as an Air Force chaplain at Balad during Iraq Surge era.
• Heart-rending stories of mass casualties, hospital heroics, and soldiers’ personal struggles.
  • “There was one week I picked up the paper, and five faces that I knew... I had either been by their bedside, knew where they were.” – Collins [13:19]
• Chaplaincy as readiness: “My job was to keep you ready.” [13:42]
• The toll of remote war, short deployments, and dual lives for today’s service members:
  • “What has that done? What does that do to the human mind?” – Jocko [25:04]

5. The Cost of War & Transitioning Back

[27:36–36:45]

• Weighing the moral and strategic cost of conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan.
  • "It raises the bar on where we should be and how we should be." – Collins [28:25]
• Candid on his own post-deployment transition: buried stress, no time to decompress.
  • “I'm the classic case of what you shouldn't do. I... never once reflecting, hey, maybe I need to take a few minutes here.” [31:36]
• Honest insights on delivering death notifications in pastoral and military settings.
  • "You acknowledge who you are... and at that moment, you've pulled the pin, so to speak, and you gotta be ready for anything." – Collins [35:54]
  • "Why is not the right question. What is the right question. What now?" – [36:46]

6. Loss, Mourning, and the American Way

[39:09–46:40]

• Jocko and Collins reflect on loss, the importance of rituals, and the challenges Americans face in processing grief.
  • "There's not one Single person on this planet that hasn't had to deal with loss... That's the process that people go through." – Jocko [40:58]
• Writing personal letters and eulogies as a therapeutic process.
  • "I got up and I wrote him a letter... and I just wrote it to him. Talked about the things that you just talked about." – Collins [48:35]

7. Career Lessons: Law, Politics, and “Full Contact” Washington

[52:17–63:01]

• From storefront lawyering to U.S. Congress, balancing faith and advocacy.
  • “Christ stood with me on my worst day. How can I not stand with somebody on their worst day?” – Collins [54:08]
• Congress as “NFL-level, full-contact politics,” extreme partisanship, and social media spectacle.
  • "It's pure raw power at the national level... Washington is the ultimate peak of national politics." – Collins [55:27]
  • "I've jokingly described the Congress as the WWE." – Collins [61:02]
• Challenges and small wins (e.g., Music Modernization Act with Hakeem Jeffries).

8. Experience with President Trump, Campaigns, and Political Media

[69:46–81:27]

• Insights into Trump’s resilience, campaign culture, and media onslaught.
  • “No better president in the last... 100 years that could have withstood what he withstood and did what he did to fight back.” – Collins [71:13]
• The media environment: fatigue and loss of trust, power of direct communication.
  • "You just knew he was going to win... President Trump is a force of nature unto himself." – Collins [74:49]
• Cabinet appointment based on knowing "how the sausage gets made" in D.C.

9. At the VA: Scope, Challenges, and Change

[83:04–97:49]

• The VA as the largest civilian agency: 170 hospitals, 1,200 clinics, 380,000+ personnel.
• Massive bureaucracy, culture of excuses, and need for unified standards.
  • "My favorite line, and it still is to this day... I just ask why. They'll say, well, here's what we're doing. I'll say, why? Well... Explain to me why we do it this way." – Collins [85:11]
  • "We added in 10 years... over $100 billion in budget and 100,000 people, and... our metrics, service... all went the wrong way." – [86:06]
• Real reforms: Reducing claims backlog, standardizing processes, leveraging social media for accountability.
  • "What gets measured gets done." – Collins [86:54]
  • "I'm of the opinion that no veteran who's earned a benefit should have to have anybody to help them get that benefit." – [88:56]
• Acknowledges ongoing failings and encourages direct feedback.
  • "I have the veteran at my heart center getting up... But I'm also tired of a society that looks at veterans as victims. We're not victims." – [91:55]

10. Closing: Camaraderie, Accountability, and Call to Action

[95:54–97:49]

• The anguish of veteran suicide rates—“right now we’re losing 17 or more a day.”
• Calls on fellow veterans and the public: maintain connections, check on your people, don’t buy media cynicism.
  • "I'm calling all veterans... It's amazing how we had a camaraderie when we were in and we seem to forget it when we leave... text them, call them, do something." – Collins [95:58]
  • "If you keep telling them that the VA's bad or you keep telling them this and you don't go follow up with the right answer, then they're going to stay away." – [97:10]
• "Our standards are going to be high... If we're doing it wrong, I'm going to fix it. But if we're doing it right, I'm going to fight you with it." – [97:35]

Notable Quotes

• On Life and Service:

  • "Don't be afraid to realize there's seasons in life and sometimes you're not ready."
    – Doug Collins [08:23]

• On Loss:

  • "What is the right question? What now? It's not why. You may not ever get that answer. ...What do I do now to take what I have and move on?"
    – Doug Collins [36:46]

• On Chaplaincy and Leadership:

  • "My job was to keep you ready... readiness is not just about physical, it's your mind."
    – Doug Collins [13:42]

• On Politics:

  • "If the Congress is NFL, Senate and House is NFL, and campaigns are NFL... what we're doing now in the cabinet is more Olympics."
    – Doug Collins [55:27]

• On the VA:

  • "We are a service organization designed to help veterans. We're not an organization designed to help ourselves."
    – Doug Collins [87:01]
  • "What gets measured gets done."
    – Doug Collins [86:54]
  • "If you've got the feedback, let us know. We're willing to take feedback and I'm willing to make changes."
    – Doug Collins [88:32]

Key Timestamps

• [00:06] – Opening story: tragic VA failures and stakes of leadership
• [03:53] – Secretary Collins joins, shares background
• [13:19] – Battlefield chaplain stories and war’s emotional cost
• [27:36] – Discussion: war’s true cost, lessons for America
• [31:36] – The necessity of real transition for veterans
• [35:54] – Notification protocol for families—raw truth
• [39:09] – Mourning, ceremony, and personal loss
• [55:27] – Full-contact politics in Congress and Cabinet
• [83:04] – Collins describes the VA's scale and problems
• [86:54] – Reforms and “asking why?”
• [95:54] – Closing: veteran isolation, suicide, and call to reconnect

Final Thoughts

This episode exposes the immense responsibility resting on the VA and its leader. Doug Collins combines bureaucratic candor, battlefield clarity, spiritual humility, and relentless “why?”—a rare blend. He reassures veterans that change is happening, voices are being heard, and holding the VA (and each other) accountable is a mission for all. His call to action is simple but powerful: check on your people, demand excellence, and remember—“if we’re doing it wrong, I’m going to fix it. If we’re doing it right, I’ll fight you with it.”

For veterans and families seeking assistance or wanting to give feedback:

• VA Social: @SecVetAffairs (& @DeptVetAffairs)
• Website: va.gov

"If you're listening to this and maybe you're out there somewhere and you think you're alone, you're not."
– Secretary Doug Collins [95:54]