Jocko Podcast 509: The Need to Lead—Lessons from Dogfights, Dunker Drills, and Ego Checks

With Dave Berke
Date: October 8, 2025

Overview

In this episode, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink welcomes friend, Marine Corps fighter pilot, and Top Gun instructor Dave Berke to discuss Berke’s new book, The Need to Lead: A Top Gun Instructor’s Lessons on How Leadership Solves Every Challenge. The conversation draws from Berke’s high-stakes experiences in dogfights, water survival training, and on-the-ground combat leadership—exploring how the universal principles of leadership apply in war, business, and life. The episode is a deep dive into the mindsets and attributes required for effective leadership, including humility, the dangers of ego, the necessity of detachment, and the reality that perfection doesn't exist—but relentless self-improvement absolutely does.

Key Discussion Points

1. Writing The Need to Lead: Process and Inspiration

• Dave Berke's transition to author:
  • Initially wrote in a dry, after-action style, lacking emotional resonance ([04:26–05:49]).
  • Jocko’s feedback was essential: “People learn through stories” ([05:49]).
  • Learned the craft by iteration, realizing that storytelling is a more powerful way to teach lessons.
• Cover & Title Choices:
  • Multiple fighter jets adorn the cover—each meaningful to Berke ([07:03–07:47]).
  • The title, “The Need to Lead,” borrows from the classic Top Gun quote, but also reflects a genuine truth in leadership ([22:56–24:08]).

2. Leadership Lessons from Air Combat—“It’s Not About You”

• Opening Dogfight Story ([09:15–15:18]):
  • Berke believed his own skills would determine the mission’s success, but a dogfight humbled him—his wingman saved the day, and he learned it’s team execution (not individual heroics) that wins.
  • Jocko links this to the four Laws of Combat: “Cover and Move,” “Prioritize and Execute,” “Decentralized Command,” and “Simple.”
  • “This was the moment that dispelled the myth that leadership is about doing everything yourself. If you’re doing it well, you’re not the one out in front—the team is.” —Dave Berke ([15:18]).

3. The Universal Nature of Leadership

• From cockpit to family life:
  • “Flying is leadership. The attributes required to successfully lead a flight are the same ones that allow someone to lead anywhere.” —Berke ([21:00])
  • Jocko and Dave discuss how principles of military leadership directly apply to families, sports teams, nonprofits, and business ([30:03–33:19]).

4. Four Core Beliefs of Leadership (Echelon Front Doctrine) ([25:24–39:04])

1. Everyone is a leader
   • “It’s foundational...it’s not based on your position in the org. It’s for everybody.” —Berke ([26:31])
2. Leadership exists in every capacity
   • “There’s no uniqueness to the environment… The things you do to be successful with your team apply in every aspect of your life.” ([32:23])
3. Every problem we face is a leadership problem
   • “If every problem is a leadership problem, then by definition, the answer is leadership.” —Berke ([36:32])
4. Leadership is a skill
   • “That person you put on a pedestal—they learned those skills, which means you can learn them too.” ([39:04])

5. The Power of Story: Key Chapters Highlighted

Every Problem Is a Leadership Problem

• Combat Story—Pinned Down in Crossfire ([39:04–46:29]):

  • Inaction paralyzes. Only by choosing to act—though it’s risky—can a leader influence the outcome.

  • Quote:
    “Even when circumstances feel completely beyond our control, we still must act.” —Jocko ([49:03])

• Business Example—The Blame Shift ([51:47]):
  • Leaders blaming “them” or “they” are dodging responsibility.

Humility Is the Most Important Attribute

• Peer Review Gut-Check at Basic School ([54:09–61:53]):
  • Despite being top-ranked, Berke’s peers saw arrogance:
    “Lieutenant Burke would be one of the best Marines in the platoon if he didn’t already think he was.”
  • ego blinds self-awareness. Only when shocked into humility did he become a true team player.

Complacency Is a Killer

• Dogfight with “Trim”—Top Gun CO ([68:06–76:49]):
  • At the peak of his career, Berke was complacent, assuming victory—trim snatched it away with skill and experience.
  • Quote:
    “Be unrelenting. Leave nothing to chance… coax every inch out of that jet. It could save your life.” —Trim ([73:47])

Detachment Is a Superpower

• Water Survival “Dunker Drill” ([80:03–91:40]):
  • Underwater panic is the most literal test. You must detach from emotion and assess objectively, or you fail.
  • Key to applying detachment everywhere: recognize your own “red flags” (clenched fists, raised voice, withdrawing, etc.) ([89:03]).

Perfection Is a Lie

• Carrier Landings (“Wave Off, Bolter”) ([96:06–114:36]):
  • Under stress, Berke tried to hide deviations, chasing perfection instead of making small, constant corrections.
  • “The sooner you accept your deviations, the faster you’ll fix them… There is no perfect pass. I’m just looking for corrections.” —Chip, LSO ([112:29])
• Standards:
  • The highest grade a landing gets is merely “OK”—perfection doesn’t exist.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Leadership Beyond Combat

• “The attributes required to successfully lead a flight are the same ones that allow someone to lead anywhere.” —Dave Berke ([21:00])

• “If every problem is a leadership problem, then the answer is leadership. And that’s the most liberating...Because you can go, here’s 30 things I can do differently.” —Dave Berke ([36:32])

On Ego and Humility

• “Lieutenant Burke would be one of the best Marines in the platoon if he didn’t already think he was.” —Peer feedback ([57:34])
• “Self-awareness was zero.” —Dave Berke ([58:24])

On Complacency

• “99.9% of the time, what you had would have been enough to win. But not this time. Be unrelenting. Leave nothing to chance.” —Trim ([73:47])

On Perfection

• “There is no perfect pass...the sooner you accept your deviations, the faster you’ll fix them.” —Chip, LSO ([112:29])

On Detachment

• “If you freak out underwater, you 100% are going to fail. There’s no—you will fail.” —Jocko ([82:12])

On Learning and Growth

• “Leadership is a skill. That person you put up on a pedestal—they learned those skills, which means you can learn them too.” —Dave Berke ([39:04])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–04:26] — Introduction, Berke’s background, The Battle of Ramadi, origins of the book.
• [09:15–15:18] — Opening dogfight story; lessons in teamwork and humility.
• [21:00–32:23] — Leadership in and out of combat; principles are universal.
• [36:32–39:04] — Every problem is a leadership problem; choosing ownership.
• [54:09–61:53] — Ego check, peer review, humility, and the journey to true leadership.
• [68:06–76:49] — Dogfight with Top Gun CO; confronting complacency.
• [80:03–91:40] — Water survival (Dilbert Dunker); learning detachment under stress.
• [96:06–114:36] — Carrier landing story; perfection is a myth, value of self-correction.
• [114:36–End] — Book promotion, advice, wrap-up, and closing quotes.

Key Takeaways

Fundamental Leadership Mindsets:

• Every problem is a leadership problem: Don’t focus on external causes—take internal ownership.
• Humility over ego: Greatest growth often comes from painful self-assessment.
• Combat complacency: Past success breeds risk; relentless vigilance is key.
• Detachment is essential: Emotional panic, whether under fire, underwater, or in conflict, blinds leaders.
• Perfection is a myth: Constant, honest correction beats the pursuit of flawlessness every time.

Universal Application:

• The principles forged in combat and cockpit are equally vital in business, family, and ordinary life—leadership is always the answer.

For Further Learning

• The Need to Lead by Dave Berke available for pre-order—releases October 21, 2025.
• Visit Echelon Front or ExtremeOwnership.com for leadership training, development, and resources.

Final Words

“Keep our egos in check and keep trying to improve… Without that brutally honest self-assessment, failure becomes imminent.” —Dave Berke, The Need to Lead ([126:02])