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- [00:00]
Jocko Willink
This is Jocko, podcast number 510 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.
- [00:05]
Dave Burke
Good evening.
- [00:06]
Jocko Willink
Also joining us once again is Dave Burke. Good evening, Dave.
- [00:09]
Dave Burke
Good evening.
- [00:10]
Jocko Willink
We are continuing the conversation about Dave's new book. The book is called the need to Lead. It is available for pre order right now. Release date is October 21, 2025. Ten years after the book Extreme Ownership came out. It also comes out on the same day I left the city of Ramadi with Leif Babbin and Seth Stone on our way home and the rest of the guys that remain there. So it's kind of a interesting date for me, a meaningful date for me. So if you're listening to this, we started the conversation about this book on the Last podcast, number 509. So if you haven't listened to that one yet, go back and listen to it. And on that first podcast that we did, number 509, we cover the first half of the book. And the first half of the book is called the Mindset of a Good Leader, and that's the first five chapters. And now we're going to look at the second half of the book, the second five chapters, which is called the Actions of a Good Leader. So we have the mindset and we have the actions. And Dave Burke, top gun pilot F18 pilot F16 pilot F22 pilot F35 pilot and you and I were talking, you flew the Raptor. You were up there for like three years flying the Raptor.
- [01:46]
Dave Burke
Yeah, more than that.
- [01:48]
Jocko Willink
And a flight in the Raptor for, let's say, how long is a flight in the Raptor?
- [01:54]
Dave Burke
Hour and a half. Hour.
- [01:55]
Jocko Willink
Hour and a half. How much does that cost it?
- [02:01]
Dave Burke
I don't know the number, but it costs the taxpayers a decent amount of money.
- [02:04]
Jocko Willink
How much? I mean, how much gas do you burn?
- [02:07]
Dave Burke
You probably, you know, depending on it, if you refuel, between 18 and 30,000 pounds of gas, depending on what you're doing.
- [02:15]
Jocko Willink
So this is. You're talking 50 grand an hour, something like that.
- [02:21]
Dave Burke
Yeah, sounds about right.
- [02:23]
Jocko Willink
How many sorties would you fly a day while you were up there?
- [02:26]
Dave Burke
Usually up at Nellis, we. I do one.
- [02:29]
Jocko Willink
One a day.
- [02:30]
Dave Burke
Yeah. Top Gun, you're flying at a different pace, but up in Fallon or up. Up at Nellis with the Raptor, one flight a day was pretty common.
- [02:36]
Jocko Willink
How did you fly a Top Gun a lot?
- [02:38]
Dave Burke
There are times four hours a day.
- [02:40]
Jocko Willink
Five hours a day.
- [02:41]
Dave Burke
Hours is not necessarily the best way to measure it, but I would routinely at Top Gun fly two Sometimes three a day. And you could burn a tank of gas at Top gun in like 30.
- [02:50]
Jocko Willink
Minutes because you're putting the pedal.
- [02:52]
Dave Burke
Yeah, you're just firewalling it all the time.
- [02:54]
Jocko Willink
What about off of a carrier over Afghanistan? How long are those?
- [02:58]
Dave Burke
Those are seven, six. Seven hour flights are long flights.
- [03:02]
Jocko Willink
How many times you have to refuel in six hours or seven hours?
- [03:05]
Dave Burke
Four or five times.
- [03:07]
Jocko Willink
Those things just suck gas.
- [03:09]
Dave Burke
They're just, they're burning gas. Once you get up to altitude, they're much better. But it takes a lot of gas, especially a heavy, combat loaded jet, to get it off the carrier. Up to altitude takes a lot of gas.
- [03:20]
Jocko Willink
Don't you refuel as soon as you get off the carrier?
- [03:22]
Dave Burke
Yeah, traditionally, like the carrier will, will give you some gas to get you. Afghanistan was unique because it took a whole hour flying over land over Pakistan to get into Afghanistan. It's a landlocked country. It's way off the coast. So flying off carriers or really from anywhere, you had a long way to go. So you had to get gas from the ship before you left.
- [03:39]
Jocko Willink
So you get gas from the ship. What does that mean?
- [03:42]
Dave Burke
Back then it was S3S. Now it's F18S. But a jet that's configured to take off has a bunch of tanks of gas, a pod or probe, a basket you could plug into, and they would just transfer. So you take off, you top off to whatever you burn from starting up to getting up to altitude, Whatever that amount was you'd burn, you'd get that in the front.
- [04:02]
Jocko Willink
You get refueled by another F18.
- [04:04]
Dave Burke
Sometimes that's, that's how the carrier does it. An F18 will take off with, they call it five wet, five tanks of gas, 2,400 pounds each. So 12, 13,000 pounds. You take off, let's say you burned 4,000 pounds from your total internal fuel. You get, you fill that back up up at altitude, which is nice because an airplane's much more efficient up there than you could go for a long time.
- [04:26]
Jocko Willink
God, logistics.
- [04:27]
Dave Burke
It's a lot carrier aviation. There is, there's nothing like it. Nothing like it in the world.
- [04:34]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, there's a. See, the Navy SEAL Museum has opened up down in downtown San Diego. So it's right by the USS Midway. So if you're interested in carrier aviation, you have to go to the Midway. You have to go to the Midway. It's so, it's so awesome to see. And after the last time we talked, I was, got a, I got a little bit sucked down into the YouTube algorithm, watching some stuff and watching some carrier landings and whatnot. And it gets. Yeah, it's. It's just a bizarre world. It's like bizarre that we even thought of all this. Yeah. But here we are. Here we are. Awesome. All right, well, let's get into the book then. The, the book, obviously it's called the need to Lead a Top Gun Instructors Lessons on How Leadership Solves Every Challenge, Written by Dave Bourke. Forward by Jocko Willink. Jack A lot of people think that's the best part of the.
- [05:35]
Dave Burke
People say.
- [05:35]
Jocko Willink
A lot of people are saying the reviews are incredible about the forward. All right, part two. Actions of a good leader. The this is chapter six is called take ownership. Ramadi, Iraq barracks room June 20, 2006 this was the second interruption in as many hours. A young Marine stood in my room. He'd entered without knocking, his face telegraphing concern. Sir, there's a call for you in the radio room. I think it's important. A wave of adrenaline rushed through my body. In the silence, I could hear the click of my laptop closing. After a deep breath, I followed him out the door to the operations room and years I'm going to refer to a call sign here, which is. The call sign is Simple. This is another Marine captain that was in charge of an fct, which is a Fire Firepower Control team. These are. That's your guys, right?
- [06:37]
Dave Burke
This my guys?
- [06:40]
Jocko Willink
Continuing on. On this trip to the radio room, my heart rate was elevated and I had to consciously elongate each breath. Whatever was on the other end of that call, I had to be calm. My emotions were contagious, and right then, the only thing I could do was not let them affect my team. Simple Chip here. What's up? I asked. My chest tightened. During the second it took for a response, Chris was hit, reloading him in a Bradley and headed back. We're going straight to Charlie Medical, simple replied. Simple's voice remained steady even as he relayed this distressing news about Chris Leon, the model Marine who was his radio operator. This was why simple was so effective in combat. Emotion doesn't help. He was problem solving. He was in problem solving mode. And this was the guy you wanted in your foxhole, Rocksteady, in every situation. Roger. I'm heading there now. I'll keep a radio with me so you can update me on the way, I said. I jumped into the pickup truck I had at my disposal to get around base and head to the medical facility just a few hundred yards away. During the short drive, I got A follow up call. Chip, he's in route. The army has him. He's stable and breathing. Were about five minutes out. I exhaled for what felt like the first time since hearing the news. Simple was preparing the medical team for what to expect and knew I would relay everything he told me. Mere minutes after I got there and coordinated with the medical team, an Army Humvee burst through the vehicle entrance, followed by the massive Bradley, its diesel engine announcing its arrival. With raucous authority, Doc and I watched the ramp drop from the back. As planned, Doc climbed into the troop compartment to help lift the stretcher. Two soldiers already had control of the bottom handles, so I waited at the base of the ramp for them to pass with Chris. I would grab Chris's hand, I thought, and walk with him to one of the operating tables inside the facility. As the stretcher pass passed, I saw Chris's face, his head wrapped in field gauze, a plastic mask covering his face. His helmet and body armor had been removed. The entrance wound from the bullet was visible above his left temple. There was no need to reach for his. So you go from the terror of one of your guys being wounded. You have no idea how bad it is as a leader and a military commander. You assume the worst. And then you get a radio, radio call that he's stable. And I can't even imagine the complete ecstatic emotions that ran through your body then. You're expecting like, hey, it, like the world between, you know, someone being badly wounded and someone being dead, that's, that's everything. And then you see him and you realize he's, he's dead. I had, there were some SEALS overseas and I was a traded at the time and there was a SEAL that had been really bad, badly wounded. And I got a call from the guys overseas and you know, they were telling me they were kind of, they were very, very emotional and telling me about the guy's condition and you know, I said like, is he going to live? And they were like, yeah. And I said, nothing else matters.
- [10:55]
Dave Burke
First.
- [10:55]
Jocko Willink
You know, it's interesting, I always refer to the fact that Mark Lee was the first SEAL killed in Iraq and Corporal Chris Leon, the first Anglico Marine killed in Iraq. And Anglico had been there just as long as the seals have been there, you know, since the beginning 2003. What's going through your mind at this juncture?
- [11:19]
Dave Burke
I mean, I think you, you captured it pretty well. You know, the Marine that came in, obviously the story is much longer in the book. I cover all the detail, but we always had someone manning the radio in case something was going on. I had a team out in the in sector. Adam and his guys were there. So when the Marine came in, he'd been in. I'd been interrupted a thousand times in that deployment. It was fine. Hey, sir, you know, this, that, whatever, just updates. I knew, I just knew every way he carried himself. I knew it was a problem. I didn't know the extent of it, but I could just tell by the way he carried himself, the look on his face, he's like, hey, sir, you need to take this call. And I just, I just had a feeling. I, hey, this is going to be really bad. And when I talked to on the radio and simple was bringing his team in, it was the first time I, I was able to piece it. Like, I knew it was bad, but I knew he'd been shot. And you know, it's just, it's. That's always bad. And it, it's probably Jocko.
- [12:18]
Jocko Willink
It's.
- [12:19]
Dave Burke
I, I've got this in my head. You could probably picture the route. It's, it's, I don't know, a three minute drive from my, where I, I lived to where the hospital was. Charlie Med. In that three minute drive, I get the call, we're on our way in, he's stable and he's breathing. And I'm like, I kind of have the same reaction. I was like, oh, like, okay, well, we're going to figure this out. But, but the worst case scenario, I now don't have to consider what I'm going to, how I'm going to react to the worst case scenario because he's okay. And obviously when you see, when you see that, like, I just, I could tell. I mean, just. You could. I just knew he was dead. It was, it was much more shocking, I think, to me had I not gotten the call. I was kind of prepared for that. But there was this moment of like, relief and I was sitting there with relief. Like, I was. I know, I don't know if it sounds weird to say this. I was excited to see him because I was looking forward to being a comfort to him. Like, I was excited for him to see me to be like, hey, dude, we got you. And I had built that scenario in my head. Like, I'm gonna hold his hand. And doc and I had kind of rehearsed like, okay, you go to the top of the stretcher. I'll be down here. I'm gonna talk to him. Like, it was all built on putting him at ease, making him Calm and giving him a friendly face of like, hey, dude, we got you. And so when he came down the ramp and I saw what it looked like and what he looked like, I kind of. I mean, I just. I just froze there. And I do remember this feeling of. Of just a combination, I guess you describe it of, like, shock and denial. Like, it. I think the reality of that war, I was probably always operating at, like, 98% reality. And the piece that I wasn't operating, it was like, this was going to ever happen to me. You and I had been to Charlie Med. I don't know how many times I've been in the memorial, which. That facility sat right next door to the. To the hospital dozens and dozens of times, and this was. There was no escape in this one.
- [14:23]
Jocko Willink
Did you think so you just mentioned 98% reality. Did you have in your mind that you would, like, your guys. You wouldn't. You wouldn't take casualties?
- [14:36]
Dave Burke
I had it in my mind that we're all going to come home. No Anglico had ever lost a Marine. We'd had. We'd get casualties. We got people hurt. We had people shot. We had. We had all sorts of things happen in Anglico. No one ever been killed. And, you know, I was. I guess, in quotes, I was prepared for that, but I wasn't until when that happened, I'm like, oh, this is. I never really thought it was gonna happen.
- [15:08]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it's weird, too. Kind of the opposite story. Ryan Jobe. So when he got shot, it was like, you know, I talked to Leif, and Leif, like, you know, he was being as positive as he could humanly be, but he just, you know, seen Ryan's, you know, face blown apart and. Yeah, it. And then when he ended up, you know, making it back to Charlie Med and making it home, it was like, very. You know, I haven't really thought about that much because, you know, Mark was killed the same day. But, yeah, there was like a. The opposite that you had, which was, you know, I thought Ryan was, you know, was dead. And then he turned out to. To. To have made it back and know eventually made it back to America before he died. But, you know, I. I definitely had the feeling that it. It didn't make sense to me from an odds perspective that we could go through deployment, you know, without taking some significant casualties. And part of that for me was, you know, someone getting killed. And just, you know, again, you cover a lot of this stuff in the book. And I'm. I'm reading some of the various parts, this. But we had gone into South Central Ramadi for the first time, set up Cop Iron, Combat Outpost Iron, which we had done a big joint. You know, that was a big joint mission with the 137. It was actually Leif Splatoon that went over there across the river. I think we talk about this in one of the books, but it was. You know, there was a. There was a village there that was called Moosh Village, which we eventually cleared, which was. That was. Again, that was Leif Splatoon, because that was on the. The western side of Ramadi. And you and I were running C2 on that one. It was like. Everyone thought, you know, moosh Village is gonna be crazy. But just north of Moosh Village was where we put Combat Outpost Iron. And we went in there, built the combat outpost. I don't know what the date was, but we were there for. We were there for maybe a day or two days. The seals were. And then we left to go back and start getting stuff ready, and your guys either took our place or, you know, showed up there. And so now Chris was on the roof of that combat outpost, and he got shot by a. By an enemy. You know, I. I hate to use the word sniper, because it's almost like you're giving credit to them, but somebody that knew how to shoot decently shot Chris. Fast forward a little bit. Within a few hours, I found myself standing on the same helicopter pad I had arrived on four months earlier, this time watching Chris's body rise into the sky aboard a Marine Corps Hilo. I'd hoped never to witness an angel flight, what the Marines honorably call such a somber occasion. Yet there I was. This was the worst moment in my 23 years of service and the lowest point of my life as a Marine. I was devastated to realize as a leader that I could not protect one of my own. The morning of the following day, I brought my entire team together to talk about our mindset moving forward. Chris was the first Anglico Marine killed in Iraq, and it sent shock waves through the entire community. I didn't want to lose anyone else, but we had a job to do. While I don't remember my remarks specifically, the gist of my speech was that Chris's death was tragic and unfortunate, but that no one should blame themselves. It was a lucky shot by an insurgent sniper, one of many that claimed the lives of hundreds of American service members. We couldn't and shouldn't dwell on it. We needed to stay vigilant and committed to supporting the army for the final three months, just like we'd done before June 20th. And with that, the war continued for us all while filled with continued fighting and sustained combat. Thankfully, the rest of my men survived and made it home. But the burden of losing Chris has never left me. I carried the memory of him and his sacrifice and everything I did throughout the rest of my military career. I carry it to this day at every opportunity. I recognize Chris Leon sacrifice. He deserves to have his story kept alive. By doing so, we can remember the heartache of the unavoidable cost of war nearly 10 years to the day I returned home from Ramadi. I read Extreme Ownership before I'd even finished the last chapter. I felt as though before I'd even finished the first chapter, I felt as though I'd been punched in the gut like a tsunami. A sense of failure washed over me as I read how Jocko told his team that the failure of the fateful Blue on Blue mission was his and his alone. He stood in front of his subordinates, peers and superiors and took complete ownership for everything that had happened. Having been in the exact room where he spoke, I could picture it perfectly. I could imagine his words, body language, tone and voice. Then I thought back to the moment, the moments I spoke with my team immediately after Chris's death. I thought about what I did and didn't do as a leader and what I said and didn't say. I never fully took ownership of what happened. Instead, I deflected blame. It was a life changing experience for me to read Extreme Ownership and recognize that in the most critical failure of my entire life, I hadn't accepted complete responsibility. In doing so, I failed the team I led. Chris's death was 100% my responsibility. When I first spoke to my men about Chris, I served up cliches and banal platitudes. I wanted to assure them that it wasn't their fault, that they couldn't have done anything differently. I thought that hearing those words would somehow make it make it make sense for them. It did not. What my men needed was to see their leader take ownership of Chris's death. While the world then they inhabited certainly involved random chaos and disorder, I needed to take ownership of everything that I could. I failed to do that. I should have told my team that moving forward I'd train each FCT on adjustments to our rooftop operations or that I'd engage with Jocko's seals to learn from their ongoing counter sniper tactics. We could implement different protocols, change procedures, something, anything. Instead, I did nothing. But assign blame to the randomness of war, the chaos of the situation, which meant I as their leader, had nothing to change, which meant there were no corrections to be made. But there were, and I did not address them that day. After Chris was killed, I needed to make changes. I didn't because I was comfortable excusing this tragedy as an inevitable consequence of war. We were in combat with unavoidable danger and risks around any corner. Yet I gave up the most powerful tool in my arsenal. Control. I surrendered it. Not only after Chris's death, but before, when I could have preemptively stopped those dangers. Prior to that fateful day in June, I should have responded to looming risks and fought against them. We knew sniper activity had been increasing throughout the war and SEALs were conducting counter sniper operations as it was reaching fever pitch. I missed opportunities to be proactive. And although it may not have guaranteed Chris's survival, I would have had more control over the outcome. I didn't want Chris's death to be real. That's the reason that halfway to the barracks to tell my men about him, I drove back to the hospital to confirm. Certainly wasn't something I wanted to own or admit could happen again. I didn't accept the depth of my responsibility as a leader. So I relinquished my most critical opportunity to lead. I just never understood that until I read the book. Yeah, I was reading that and it was definitely very heavy to read. Very heavy to read. And you know, you and I have had conversations about that. And that is, it's, it's, it's the burden. It's the burden of combat leadership. And that is when you lose people in combat, it is your fault. And are there random things that happen? And does the enemy get a vote? And yes, there's chaos and there's disorder, but you're in charge. And when you're in charge, you have that responsibility. And that's the, the lesson that you put here is the takeaway. Take ownership of everything and, and don't wait. Leaning into some preemptive ownership with that.
- [25:19]
Dave Burke
Yeah, I mean, it is hard to hear you read my words. I mean, it takes me back to that moment and it takes me back to the whole arc of the experience of losing Chris. I don't remember what I said, but I can picture it fairly well. I know where I was standing. I know what I was saying, and I know what I was thinking too. I certainly know what I felt. Man, I got probably a lot on my mind. I don't want to wait too much time on it. But, you know, there's a balance. There are things beyond our control. That is the world that we live in. And combat is a place by which things are going to happen you can't control. And, you know, I don't want to overstate. Like, I listed a bunch of things I could have done before and a bunch of things I could have done after. That was part of my own reckoning of realizing where my failures were. That wasn't. That's not a recipe to guarantee what the outcome. I could have done all those same things, and the outcome could have been the same. And the point isn't. That isn't even the point. But, you know, that ground combat experience for me was. Was a. Whatever the word is for a out of my comfort zone experience. I mean, there's the. The contrast between being the senior instructor at Top Gun months earlier to being a ground combat leader in Ramadi with your seals. That's a. That's a. There's a big difference there. You know, for me, if I think about God. So many thoughts. You cannot write a leadership book if you don't talk about the concepts of humility, ownership, and teamwork. They belong in every book. I also wasn't going to write a leadership book that just restated the concept of ownership that you articulated in the very first chapter of that book. And as I thought about how I was going to discuss or explain the lesson it meant to me, what I had to do is be really honest with myself of when the concept of ownership really, really, I think, made sense to me. And it was when I was reading it, and reading that book was like, oh, I'm gonna read. I'm gonna read Jocko and Lace book. This would be cool because these are my friends, we serve together, and I'm really excited to read what they wrote. And then it's like, holy crap. It's humbling. But I think also very required for me to be. For me to be.
- [27:49]
Jocko Willink
For.
- [27:49]
Dave Burke
To meet, for me to have been successful at Echelon Front, for me to truly understand what we are trying to do. With what you made, I had to be honest with how that landed with me. Was that chapter, wasn't you talking about your story. That chapter was talking to me about mine. And my story was at the hardest thing I've ever done, the lowest point I've ever been in. Did I actually do the things that you were teaching? And I didn't. And that was a really hard thing to accept writing that. It was really the first time I really put into words But I've carried that feeling with me for a long time of what I didn't do. And I don't like that feeling. I don't. I don't like that feeling. And I don't live where I, like, had I done this, it would have been okay. I don't live like that. I don't have that sense of I could have changed the outcome. But if you really think about what I did in the wake of that experience, or I guess a better way to put it is what I didn't do is I attribute the rest of us coming home. I can't take. I can't take credit for that because I didn't do the things that I should have done. I just like, hey, this is what happens in this war. Just carry on. And there's some truth to that. There's some truth to that. But there's so much that was missing there, and I felt I had to capture what that meant to me. So it's relatable in a way that people can go, hey, this applies to every aspect of your life. And our tendency is to just avoid that. And took me 10 years to figure out that that's what I've been doing.
- [29:20]
Jocko Willink
Well, I'm teaching the young junior officers. One of the things that I. I've talked about with them is, hey, you can. You know, you got to make a call to go left or right. You can make a call to go left, and you. You. You guys take a left, and they step on an ID and three guys get killed. And that was a. Is that a bad call that you made? Well. Or you told them to go right, and everyone walked off and you made it back to base, or you told them to go right. They hit an ID and, you know, you lose three guys, or you told them a little left, and everyone made it back to base. Good decision, bad decision. With the information that you had at the time, the piece of it that doesn't change, is it that it was your decision? And another very similar thing to that is the whole idea of being on rooftops. So being on rooftops in Ramadi carried an amount of risk to it. But the. The risk was there's two. Two major risks. One of them was snipers, and the other one was having grenades thrown on the rooftop. Which soldiers were killed by grenades thrown on rooftops? Mike Monsoon was killed by a grenade thrown on a rooftop, and three of other guys were wounded. So there's an argument, well, hey, why would you go up on the roof? Well, the answer is Very simple. When you're on a rooftop, you can cover more angles than you can when you're looking through windows. So you're. Everything is a trade off. And by the way, if you've seen the movie Warfare, those guys were not on the rooftop. They were inside the building, on the upper deck, and someone put a grenade through the window. That. So it's one of those things where, well, did you decide to go on the rooftop or did you decide to go in the building? Maybe you got away with it, maybe you got caught. But regardless of that outcome, you have to. That. That was your decision that you made as a leader. No one talked to you, and hey, they might. They try to talk to you. Platoon chief said, this platoon chief told us to go up there. Yeah, but it was your call and you're up there and this is the consequences. And here's where I actually think that. And, and, you know, as we, as we mentioned, there is randomness that is completely beautiful, beyond our control. There are things that we truly cannot control. And can you stop? You know, can you truly stop? Can you never go on a roof if you're taking, if you're walking through Ramadi? Nope. You have to go on rooftop sometimes. Do you have to move down the street where there's IDs? Yes. If you're going to accomplish, if you're going to do your job, you have. There's going to be risks. You can't completely eliminate those risks. And you have to know that as a leader, and you have to own that as a leader. And I think as hard as that is and as brutal as that is, I actually believe that that is the healthiest thing that you can do, because if you just throw it to chance and look, there's, there's some things that are chance, but if you know that you did, you made your decisions based on the information that you had at the time, you own that decision. I think that is more healthy than putting your hands up in the air and saying, well, it was just bad luck that day. Does bad luck play a role? Oh, absolutely. Bad luck plays a role. But everything outside that one, that one element, everything outside that element, we did everything we could. And I think that is a healthier way than shrugging your shoulders and saying, well, that's just bad luck. There's going to be bad luck. There's going to be things you can't control. That's the way life is, and that certainly is the way combat is. But you have to take ownership of everything that you can of Everything that you can. And I believe that when you take ownership of that, instead of pointing the fingers and blaming the circumstances and blaming bad luck, I think that actually hurts in the long run more than knowing that you're doing your job. And by the way, people will make mistakes in combat too. People will say, hey, they'll send people in the wrong spot, they'll assault the wrong building. You know, you read those chapters in when Leif was with Chris and Chris, or Leif could have easily said, go ahead and engage that. You know, Chris saw somebody with a scoped weapon. Chris saw someone with a scoped weapon, reported the building. Leif ran it up the chain of command, deconflicted. The army said, there's no friendlies in that building. Take the shot, kill that enemy sniper. And it would have been totally understandable if Leif had said, yes, Chris, there's no friendly in that building. That's an enemy fighter. Shoot him. And it would have been completely understandable if Chris said, roger that, boss, and taken that shot. And if he would have done that, he would have killed an American soldier because there was a problem with the deconfliction. That can happen. Those things can happen. And if you leave it to chance and you shrug your shoulders, those things are much more likely to happen. So, yeah, I think the healthiest thing to do, even though it's painful, is to take ownership. And, you know, for, you know, I was the, I was a senior SEAL in Ramadi. Every operation that we did was mine, was mine. And that's the way things work. Yeah. You go forward a little bit, you talk about the ultimate form of ownership is what we call preemptive ownership. And this, again, this is, you know, one of the problems with extreme ownership is it's looking to the past. Hey, a mistake was made. It was my fault. Well, preemptive ownership is, hey, if a mistake gets made, it is going to be my fault. Therefore, I'm going to implement these things to prevent mistake from happening as much as we possibly can. Strange thing about your job is a single seat fighter aircraft. What happens in that bird is literally yours. There's no, there's no finger pointing to be done, even down to the maintenance. I mean, you do a walk through you, I mean, I guess someone could make a real bad mistake with some kind of maintenance protocol.
- [36:51]
Dave Burke
It's hard to. When you're by yourself in a jet, it's really hard to find someone else to blame for anything goes wrong in that jet. So, yeah, I, there's always, you know, like some Crazy thing. But, I mean, generically speaking, who are you gonna blame? You know? And that's. That's 100 true. And everything you just said about that, I mean, that was really what. That's really what reading that chapter did to me. You know.
- [37:22]
Jocko Willink
It'S everything.
- [37:22]
Dave Burke
You got to take ownership of everything. I don't know. Well, I know for me that I wasn't doing that. And I think I had gotten to a place where I was comfortable, you know, I wasn't running around, like, pointing the finger and blaming. I don't. I haven't been living my life. I hadn't been living my life in my life, or I'm some sort of victim of things going on around me. But when you read that and you think about what that means to you, part of it is, for me is recognizing I need to be able to cross the bridge on that moment. And if there's one good thing that that has done for me, it's really hard for me to find another circumstance now and be like, well, that's not really my fault with this as a backdrop, right? Like, this is the ultimate for me. And the benefit of that is you can look around. I can look around at everything else and be like, hey, dude, this is not going to be that hard. Find out what you did wrong and fix it. Look in the future, prevent it from happening.
- [38:18]
Jocko Willink
It's just what you got to do. And by the way, you know, I think I. I think the only part about Chris that I read was I think you called him the ultimate Marine or something like that. And. And you. You give, you know, more detail in the book, but just a total stud.
- [38:34]
Dave Burke
Total stud.
- [38:34]
Jocko Willink
Just a total stud. Just outstanding across the board and doing his job and loving doing his job, by the way, you know, which is. That's something, you know, you. You'll hear the phrase, like, oh, he died doing what he loved. Right? You hear that? This kind of sounds like what you call a cliche or a platitude, but, man, I take a lot of comfort in that fact that, you know, you know, I just. Just was with up at Mikey's grave and, like, knowing. Knowing. I mean, I know 100. 100. That Mikey wanted to be doing exactly what he was doing. Exactly what he was doing. That's what he wanted to be doing. Mark. Same exact thing. Ryan job, we actually got to hear him say, you know, even though he got shot in the face, even though he's blind, he's like, I want to come back. Because that's exactly what he wanted to be doing. And Chris Leon's the exact same way. Go. You can go look at a picture of him right now on the Internet and you will not see one ounce or one. The slightest indication of any hesitation of any kind whatsoever. That is a United States Marine in combat supporting his brothers and that you can see it 100% in his face with no, not even any indication of any kind of anything other than that. And like you mentioned in the book, the opportunity to share his story and let people know is. Is an. Is a pretty. It's an honor to be able to do that. And you did a great job of it in the book. And yeah. Is your leaders out there, whatever little tiny excuse you're grasping onto. And look, look, the moos, the moos, the enemy fighters, yeah, they're. They're the ones, you know, they're the ones that pulled the trigger. They're the ones that killed Chris, killed Mark, killed Ryan. They're the ones that killed Mikey. Like. Yes, but we have to take ownership of everything that we can. As much as it hurts, and it does apply to everything. And, and you get here into the. The Real world application, which once again, you start off with a. With a quote. And the quote is completely applicable to what we're talking about. The quote that starts off with from one of our clients at Echelon. Fun is how am I supposed to take ownership of something I didn't even do right? And, you know, this guy goes on, I'm not trying to be difficult, and I know it's time for a break. I. I like what you're saying, but some things are just not my fault. And so you break that down and you actually break it down in this one, in this chapter is like in. In a family scenario, you know, someone's like, you know, they're having problems with their wife. And of course, how well does it work out when you push, you know, place the blame on your wife for something that went wrong instead of taking ownership yourself? I guarantee, you know, I've been married for, coming up on, I think, 28, 29 years, something like that. People like, you know, what's the secret? I tell you, the secret straight up, is extreme ownership. That's straight up the secret. And that's one of the stories that you tell anyone for the application. Fast forward here to the next chapter is called Listen. Pacific Beach, California. One mile west of Interstate 5. September 26, 2006. It was the middle of the afternoon, and the blinding sun lit up every side, alley and driveway. My eyes Scanned left to right and back again as my vehicle moved methodically down the street. A kid on a bike wore a backpack. I instinctively changed lanes, giving a wide berth. There could be danger anywhere. An IED in a trash can, a sniper on a rooftop. Observing, watching everything for potential threats was an inexorable part of my life in Ramadi during the height of the insurgency. So much so that it was as much a reflex as blinking. On that drive, that bright sunny day, I wasn't thinking as much as I was anticipating and ready to act. So there you are. And you'll Notice the date. September 26, 2006. What day did you get home?
- [43:42]
Dave Burke
That's the day.
- [43:42]
Jocko Willink
That's the day. Check.
- [43:44]
Dave Burke
That's the. That's the hour.
- [43:47]
Jocko Willink
And so you're driving in the car and you know, I'll fast forward a little bit. I heard the din of arbitrary chit chat grow. Because with your family. The vehicle filled with background noise and voices, but the words were indiscernible and I was losing focus. What were they talking about? There was nothing to discuss. We should have been closely observing everything exactly as. As we'd always operated. Everything else was superfluous. I could feel myself becoming agitated. The cacophony grew until I couldn't take it anymore. Stop talking. I barked abruptly and loudly. Everyone froze. My sharp words had sliced through the chatter like a blade. But the inhabitants of this car were not my troops. So there you go. A little decompression happening.
- [44:33]
Dave Burke
A little.
- [44:34]
Jocko Willink
A little ptsd. That's what that is. Actually, it's the short fuse. And these are textbook ptsd, by the way. Yeah, bad dreams, which you mentioned. I didn't cover them, but you mentioned the bad dreams, the short fuse, which is textbook. And hyper alert. Three for three. Yeah. How was it? How was when you got home?
- [44:59]
Dave Burke
Well, chapter tells quite an interesting story. I mean, it's funny hearing you listen here, listening to you tell the story that I wrote. And you know, you do this really well.
- [45:08]
Jocko Willink
You pick certain.
- [45:09]
Dave Burke
You can read the whole chapter. It's going to take forever. But you know, I land, I get in the car, I got to drive from the San Diego airport to our house in PB. It's like, I don't know, 12 minute. I mean, it's a short drive, dude. And it's like a gorgeous day. You know, September in San Diego is just like epic perfect. And I'm in the car with my mom and my wife, like the two most important people in my whole world that I just have been missing. I just wanted to get home to. And. And I'm home. I'm home from Ramadi. And, you know that feeling of, like, when you come home from Ramadi, it's like. It's a.
- [45:43]
Jocko Willink
You're home. It's a big deal. What was your. What was your decompression on the way home? Like, remember? I mean, my buddy. The first deployment to Iraq, and my buddy Johnny, who's my brother, and he was. He was on a long deployment, and he was at the ragged edge end of it, and he goes, dude, bro, tomorrow we're gonna go on a metal tube, and then 24 hours later, we're.
- [46:10]
Dave Burke
Gonna be in BB. Yeah.
- [46:12]
Jocko Willink
So that's pretty much what you were dealing with.
- [46:14]
Dave Burke
We went to, like, Kuwait for, like, two days or something, you know, waiting for the. I think we flew in out of Kuwait, if I'm not mistaken. I'm almost positive. And I remember, like, Kuwait was, like, a thousand degrees. It was just miserable. And you're out of Ramadi, and, like, I think we went through some decompression thing. But in your being, like, I don't.
- [46:29]
Jocko Willink
Want to be here.
- [46:29]
Dave Burke
I want to be home. This is ridiculous. And anyway, you know, it take. Takes all, like, six or seven minutes on the drive home that I. I. I don't have a really good sense of, like, you know, the. The. The arc of getting to the point where I, like, screamed at them, but it kind of. When I yelled at them, like, kind of startled myself, like, whoa. And I can still. I mean, that's a. That's a hard chapter to write. It's a very hard chapter to listen to because I can really. I can show you the street on the map. I can place it, and my wife is in the passenger seat. My mom's in the back seat. But when I say it, I turn to the right, and I can. I can still, to this day, like, see the look on my wife's face, which probably, you know, had, like, 10 different emotions. Like, she felt bad.
- [47:12]
Jocko Willink
She was.
- [47:13]
Dave Burke
She was sorry. But underneath, that was, like, almost like a look of, like, she didn't recognize me. So you got to remember, I met my wife when I. When I checked into Top Gun. So she meets me, and, you know, it's like, my boyfriend's a Top Gun instructor, which we like. Yeah. I mean, like, it is the most idyllic, ridiculous fun. You could not have a better scenario to start a relationship.
- [47:41]
Jocko Willink
Weekends in Tahoe, just.
- [47:42]
Dave Burke
All of it, dude. All of it. All of it. And there was, like, a moment of Like a lack of recognition on her face to me. And I could see her seeing, I could see that in her face looking.
- [47:52]
Jocko Willink
At me like, did she understand what was going on in Ramadi?
- [47:57]
Dave Burke
I mean, I think to a degree there's, I mean, no, as much as a 20 something year old girl who's, we got married in, you know, the previous May. I deployed in September. So as much as that person can know. Yeah, she knew all of it, which is essentially nothing. She certainly didn't have any sense of like I was going to carry that. You just write three textbook things. She didn't have no, she had no frame reference for that. But, you know, that was a moment like kind of came and went and I was like, I think I apologize profusely. I'm like, I'm sorry. I kind of lost track of things and. No, we're good, no problem. You know, she goes, my mom goes home and I'm back home with my wife and I, you know, it's the first night we're back home and I wake up that night with that nightmare. And it's a very vivid nightmare to me. I can, I can replay very clearly. But it was like, I mean, it's like crap out of the movies. Like I, I, I sit up like in a cold sweat. I'm, I'm, I'm hyperventilating. She's, she, her eyes are like saucers very quickly, like she's realizing like something's going on and I am too. You know, I'm like, I know this is not normal behavior or I guess it's not standard behavior that makes sense. So like it was like, welcome home, you know, like welcome home to this, this, this whole act that I brought with me.
- [49:18]
Jocko Willink
You have to adjust.
- [49:22]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [49:23]
Jocko Willink
And I'm going to fast forward to the adjustment. While not necessarily easy at first, the correction was simple. I needed to listen more. That was it. I had to recognize, identify and intercept my typical path to be the first, loudest, and often the only verse voice in the room. And that's exactly what I did. I just stopped talking so much. Instead, I got back in the habit of inviting her to be herself, just as she had been before Ramadi. Ironically, it led to a discovery I hadn't anticipated. Shifting my talking to listening ratio also taught me to listen to myself. This is where I was kinda. Oh, when I read that, I was like, okay, Dave's gonna take a little exploration here. For months I'd been trying to silence the voices in my head that felt frustrated and angry. I did Everything possible to stifle those emotions, but it proved impossible. So instead of trying to block them out, I turned them on their head. The more I listened to my own internal voice, the more I was able to recognize and diagnose whatever emotions I was feeling. Listening to myself, acknowledging what I was feeling, and dealing with whatever that issue was almost immediately improved my own mental state, just as it improved our marriage. When I listened to Whitney Moore, listening was how I understood what was going on and what allowed me to get past it. Ignoring my own voice was as dumb as ignoring Whitney's. So there you go. There you go. It's funny, we were just answering another question on. On the Underground podcast, and it's like, you've heard me say this before. Like, you got to tell yourself the truth, but it's really important. You got to listen to yourself, too. You got to listen to what the. You know, what are. What is going on in your head, and you got to listen to it because you can't. You can't ignore it. Right? You have to have the conversation, and you can say, okay, I'm listening to you, and what you're saying doesn't make sense, and therefore, I'm not going to act on it. But I understand it, and now I can. I can deal with it. You say. Something else occurred to me, too. Whitney had been the better leader throughout our impasse because she had been listening to me, to what I needed. So a little credit to Whitney. Yeah, Ignoring what's going on in your head is not going to work out well. And you know what's interesting is I wonder. I wonder how close, you know, you know, the. The feelings that you had about Chris. And, you know, I wonder. I wonder how close you got to uncovering those thoughts at that time. You know, like, what is this. What is this feeling that I have right now? Why don't. Why don't I. Why do I feel this. And why is this bothering me? Why is this keeping me up? Why is my having bad, like, all those things, you know, it's hard. Yeah, Yeah.
- [52:15]
Dave Burke
I mean, I think about even why I wrote that and why that story was so important. I mean, one thing I know for sure, totally independent of. Of my story there that I was telling is, like, just in general, in life, listening is such a good thing to do. Like, it's such a. It's such a. It seems so obvious to say that, but it is such an overlooked and underappreciated behavior just in life in general. Just stop talking so much and just listen. Just Listen. Even people that are upsetting you or frustrating you or disagreeing, like, just listen to them and how so much better your life is in every aspect of your life, personally, professionally, your marriage, your kids. And obviously, I alluded to this in there yourself. I'm just listening. People just talk so much. And this, you know, this was a key lesson. Like, hey, you got to just listen more. You know, you didn't talk to it. One of the. I had just created. I. I had to recognize that I'd fallen into this habit, and in my world, like, talking made sense. And I. I give some examples. Like, okay, when you're. When you're by yourself in a jet, it's obvious you are the primary talker. You're the only talker. When you are the vehicle commander of a Humvee and you're controlling the aircraft, you're. You're communicating to the airplanes, you are the primary talker. Makes sense. When you are an instructor at Top Gun and you are teaching classes and giving debriefs, clearly you are the primary talker. And I had just. I had just created a habit by which that was just kind of normal. And so I'm This. I'm in this primary talking role. And then I come home, and you said it like, you know, ptsd, the baggage, like. And listen, I got to make it clear, like, what I endured, people have gone through so much worse. And I don't want to overstate, like, the significance of this, but this was what happened to me. And there's all sorts of different ways I think to approach this, but in my mind, like, what I came to realize is just about all of the solution to my problem that I came home with. I had control over. I had so much control over solving my frustration. What was the only thing you said? Like, heightened, you know, awareness, you know, trigger, hair trigger. And I think one of the things was somewhat comforting was like, oh, this is all I'm. This is. I am. I can control all of this. And I know it sounds like, almost like, too simple to say, just listen yourself, but I. I don't think. I think that's correct. That's. That is. The whole conclusion of this is like, oh, I'm. I'm mad about something, or I'm frustrated or I'm getting anxious or whatever. Those things are, like, stifling out. Like, I'm just gonna ignore that. Like, well, that's dumb. Just listen to it. It's like, why? And there's so much more inside there. But two main things happened. One is like, just remind us. Like, just stop talking, dude. Like, the last thing you should be doing is telling your wife anything like, this is insane. And it wasn't like that before. Our relationship wasn't like that before I left. I came back, and all of a sudden she's in this, like, hyper deferential mode. She just scared shitless about what's going on with me. She just wants to take care of me, and she just kind of, like, deferred to me and whatever I needed to help get through this. And in that period of time, like, she kind of lost who she was in our marriage. I'm like, this is. I came to the. Like, this is not a functional relationship. It'd been like, I cannot. We can't survive like this. And the other part too was like, hey, there's stuff going on in my head, like, why would you ignore that? Why would you ignore what's. What you were feeling and thinking? And to your point, like, I don't have to react to that, but I can't pretend it's not going on. And I don't want to say it was like, overnight, but once I. I cracked the code on that, like, it was very, very quickly things normalized, stabilized, and got very, very much back to normal. Once I learned that habit of like, oh, okay, I got it. And it was just. It was so much easier. And that stuff applies everywhere, man.
- [56:11]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, I know we. I know we have the. The saying default aggressive at echelon front, but here's another good default. Listen. Just listen. And I'll tell you a lot of times, if you actually. A lot of times we. Our ego. Our ego's sitting there telling you, like, everyone wants to hear what you have to say. There was some pretty freaking hilarious clips that rolled into my algorithm. And it's like a guy who's. Who's like inside voices telling him to do stuff. And they're like. I think one of them was like, he's at a wedding party. And the voice is like, hey, everyone wants to see you do the worm. The worm dance. And he's like, yeah, yeah. Well, I don't know. He's like, oh, they definitely want to. And so we have that voice in our head that's going, oh, everyone wants to hear your opinion. Everyone's just waiting for you to give your opinion. No, no, actually, they don't. They don't. Your default should be. No one actually wants to hear what I have to say. That should be your default mode. That's part one. And by the way, if if you hear me say that and you go, gosh, that must be so bad for other people. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's actually you that I'm talking about. You. No one wants to hear what you have to say. No one. So don't. Don't say anything. The other thing is, and this is such a. Such an awesome answer is people will, you know, we'll be working with a company, and someone will tell me, you know, well, how do you deal when someone's really mad? How you do when someone. Someone's really frustrated? How you deal when someone's really upset? How do you deal with someone's pushing back? How do you deal with someone has a different idea than yours? And it's like, oh, it's all the same answer. Listen to them. When someone's angry and they're raising their voice, listen to them. When someone's frustrated and they're attacking, listen to them. When someone has a different idea, listen to them. When someone is pushing back, listen to them. And if you learn how to listen. And by the way, you kind of also have to put your ego in check and that whatever they're saying might be right. And, oh, yeah, they're mad because you did something stupid or you did something that was egotistical or you did something that looked out for yourself or you did something that hurt them. Like, all those things. Listen is the best way to diffuse emotions. So keep that in mind. And also, you know, you mentioned that, you know, what you'd been through was minuscule and what all of us went through, you know, was minuscule compared to, you know, any. Pick an island, you know, pick a European village that, you know, all those things. And also. But, you know, your reaction to it was also, you know, relatively not that big of a deal. You know, they're kind of the what I say 3 for 3 on these PTSD things, but they weren't exaggerated to a point where it was, you know, some huge problem. But, you know, you don't want to exist in a relationship with your wife and make her feel, like, nervous and whatever. So the lesson, listening is the most overlooked and underestimated leadership behavior. And then you go through the five components of a, a relationship, trust, respect, listening, influence, and care. You have listening. You add in an ing of that as opposed to listen. Right on. They wanted us. We discussed doing that with the four laws of combat leadership changing. Simple to simplify. So you have cover move. That's an action to take. Simplify. That's an action to take, prioritize, and execute. That's an action. Take. And decentralized command is actually an action that you can take. Hey, Decentralized command. But we decided that since that's what we actually taught, that's what we stuck with. Just simple. Plus, it's a little simpler. Fast forward a little bit. Self awareness isn't always easy, but it's critical. It's crucial to being a successful leader in business and life. Often it's difficult to comprehend just how much time we're talking. But there's a simple test. The next time you're around others at a dinner table or anywhere else, take stock of the conversation. Actively pay attention to the dynamic. Calculate how long you are talking relative to how long others are. If you're the one with more food on their plate than anyone else, stop talking and let someone else share. Even if you're the best storyteller, everyone still. Everyone else still wants to be heard. So keep it short and don't overdo it. Just be quiet and listen. That's classic. Yeah. Dude, check your plate. Yeah, still got food on it. Shut your trap. Yep, that's right. Real World application. This one. Erica was the charged nurse. That meant she was responsible for scheduling, compliance and making sure all other nurses were doing their job. I mean, I'm the charge nurse for a reason. Erica declared. I have the most experience, and I have seen these problems more than anyone. Believe me, I get it. So Erica's fired up. Erica's fired up. Yeah. And. Yeah, man, put a muzzle. Put a muzzle on yourself. It's going to be helpful. Tyndall. Am I saying that right?
- [61:29]
Dave Burke
Tyndall?
- [61:29]
Jocko Willink
This is the next chapter. Yeah, this is a chapter called Change. Tyndall air Force Base, Florida F22 Raptor Training March 2008 so the Raptor you described to me at one point, the Raptor, is like a Porsche. Yeah. Is that. Is that correct? Is that accurate? Yeah, totally. It's just not a. Not a GTO judge with an eight cylinder, you know, not a drag racer, but a Porsche because it's powerful but maneuverable. Can you. And it's a dog fight.
- [62:04]
Dave Burke
It is.
- [62:05]
Jocko Willink
It's a dogfight machine, right?
- [62:06]
Dave Burke
It can dog fight. Yes. Better than anything.
- [62:08]
Jocko Willink
Better than an F16. Yes. Better than an F20. Better than an F18.
- [62:12]
Dave Burke
Yes.
- [62:13]
Jocko Willink
Better than F35.
- [62:14]
Dave Burke
Keep going. The answer is yes.
- [62:16]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it's.
- [62:16]
Dave Burke
Is it.
- [62:17]
Jocko Willink
Is it the optimal machine?
- [62:18]
Dave Burke
You're gonna get a dog fight. Get it? Do it in F22.100%. It's the most it's like you said, it is insanely powerful, but it is so nimble and can be so light. So how it combines all those attributes is makes it very unique and it.
- [62:35]
Jocko Willink
Can out climb these other aircraft.
- [62:37]
Dave Burke
Yep.
- [62:37]
Jocko Willink
It's just a beast.
- [62:38]
Dave Burke
It's just a beast. It's just better at everything. It's just a beast.
- [62:42]
Jocko Willink
Is there an F22 squadron?
- [62:44]
Dave Burke
Yeah, several.
- [62:46]
Jocko Willink
And their purpose is to dog fight.
- [62:50]
Dave Burke
Their purpose is air dominance. How you achieve that? There's a whole range of ways to do it. But yeah, there's a bunch of F22 squadrons and they're.
- [62:58]
Jocko Willink
How did you get to an F22 squadron? Your nickname is Good Deal Dave.
- [63:04]
Dave Burke
Dave man.
- [63:05]
Jocko Willink
So fill us in, Echo.
- [63:06]
Dave Burke
All right, the short version, it's a lot. Long story, I'll try to keep it as short as I can.
- [63:10]
Jocko Willink
Is this an Air Force squadron?
- [63:11]
Dave Burke
This is an Air Force only airplane. No other country has it. No other. It's only just the Air Force. So the, the around 2008 time frame, the Marine Corps is like, okay, we're gonna buy the, a new airplane. The airplane's called the F35. It's coming in a couple years. They were kind of doing some math. It's going to be here in a few years. That F35 was what's called a fifth generation fighter. It was going to replace F18s and Harriers with which we had had since like the early 80s. So the Marine Corps hadn't bought and introduced a new airplane in decades, like almost 40 years. The air Force had bought and started introducing the F22 in 2005. And there was all sorts of problems introducing a new jet. They hadn't bought, built and introduced a new airplane in also decades. And it's just, it's just friction, man. It's new, new technology, it's stealth. It's something they'd never seen before. And so the Air Force had all sorts of issues introducing this new airplane. The Marine Corps is like, okay, well we don't want to learn these lessons ourselves. We're going to take a guy, send him to the Air force, to the F22 for about three or four years and his number one job is like, learn all these nuances and all these challenges of introducing a 5th gen fighter to a service. And that guy will come back to the Marine Corps and as we start, start standing up the F35, he'll have all this resident knowledge. So it was like the ultimate good deal is this guy, whoever this guy was going to be, and I Said in the book it wasn't going to be me. It was going to be somebody goes, Flies. Raptors learns how the Air Force introduced a brand new fifth generation fighter, the first of its kind. First time in decades, he'll take all that institutional knowledge, he'll stand up the first F35 squadron and he'll, he'll help us not make a bunch of those mistakes.
- [64:59]
Jocko Willink
So it was not only a ticket to fly the F22, it was a ticket to go to the F35. It's all.
- [65:04]
Dave Burke
But Gary, I mean, is the closest you can ever get to a guarantee that I knew I was going to go from F22s to F35s, which is exactly what happened. And that was the ultimate good deal.
- [65:14]
Jocko Willink
How big is an F22 compared to an F35? It's big.
- [65:17]
Dave Burke
It's. It's noticeably bigger. It's probably.
- [65:19]
Jocko Willink
It's bigger.
- [65:21]
Dave Burke
F22 is significant. If you put an F22 next to an F35, the F35 will look small. Small.
- [65:25]
Jocko Willink
No kidding.
- [65:26]
Dave Burke
Yes, the F22 is a big airplane.
- [65:28]
Jocko Willink
Compared to an F35, but it still can outmaneuver it. It's.
- [65:32]
Dave Burke
It's unmatched.
- [65:36]
Jocko Willink
And is that just the design? Because that's what it's designed for all sorts of things.
- [65:41]
Dave Burke
It's the, It's. Yes, you're correct. There's some long engineering story. The short answer is exactly what you said. That's how it's built. And if you've ever seen. Speaking of YouTube, just Google, I'm sorry, just YouTube F22 air show. And you'll see an airplane do something. No, the airplane can do. It's just like, it's just ridiculous. And I got to fly it and.
- [66:01]
Jocko Willink
You got to fly it for like four years, man.
- [66:05]
Dave Burke
Yep, just about.
- [66:06]
Jocko Willink
Just under all out of Vegas.
- [66:08]
Dave Burke
Well, I did all my training in Tyndall was where this chapter starts. Okay, so In February of 08, I go to Tyndall. I think I probably spent maybe three years.
- [66:16]
Jocko Willink
How mad was every other Marine Corps pilot you at this point?
- [66:19]
Dave Burke
Mad though? I mean, the craziest part is I, I said it in the chapter. I just said on this thing like I wasn't going to do it. I was on a deployment in the F18 as the XO and the number two of a squadron. I had already dropped my letter and already put in to get out. And I'd gotten accepted into grad school. So on this deployment, I extended on this deployment to make the deployment. And I was getting out of the Marine Corps on the deployment. The the notification comes down, they're going to accept applications for this Raptor job. But I'd already like we're. I'm getting out and my boss already everybody knew. I'm like, well, you know.
- [66:58]
Jocko Willink
Where'd you get accepted to college?
- [67:01]
Dave Burke
Dartmouth. Tuck School of Business. Gonna go get an MBA at an Ivy League school. Sounded cool at the time.
- [67:05]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And then they dangled that F22 in front of me.
- [67:09]
Dave Burke
Then I applied.
- [67:09]
Jocko Willink
And it is still kind of weird that they even selected you knowing that you were going to get out. It was very weird.
- [67:17]
Dave Burke
Freaking good deal.
- [67:18]
Jocko Willink
Dave has arrived.
- [67:20]
Dave Burke
No complaints, man. It worked out.
- [67:23]
Jocko Willink
I was about to ask you about what it was like getting into the new bird, but we're about to get into that, so here we are. Tindle air Force Base, Florida F22 Raptor Training March 2008 My tantrum was epic. It rivaled that of of a sleep deprived toddler being told he can't have any the toy he wants. Only I added a stream of explicit expletives that would make a sailor blush. In keeping with the tone of this book and the fact that my children will likely read it, I'll let you fill in the blanks. What the are you doing? What the is wrong with you? How in. How in the is this happening? What the is going on? Why the is this so hard? After the first outburst, I started thinking bigger. Why the can't you do this? How did you even get here? How are you going to figure this out? What the are you going to do now? In the moment, I felt as though my brain might be disintegrating and I couldn't understand why. By the time I hit the 10 minute mark of training, I had essentially given up on the mission and started to rant. To that point, nothing I tried to do worked. And because I was inside a modern flight simulator, it was all on camera for my instructor, a relatively young Air Force captain, to watch. Out of shock, morbid curiosity, or perhaps sheer entertainment, he let me go on until I'd gotten everything out of my system. Thank goodness Instagram didn't exist yet. Whatever it looked like from this, from his point of view, the display couldn't have been flattering. There I was, in high definition, the first and only Marine ever to fly the world's deadliest fighter. Completely losing it during a simulator training event. It was awful. So what's going on with that? Like, are the controls backwards?
- [69:08]
Dave Burke
Are they. I can explain what's the deal yeah, every time. You know, this is the third chapter of the second half of the book. And it's just a reminder of like, these are the most unflattering stories. So if you, if you think you're gonna get some hero story in this book, you can attest for me, on behalf of having written this, like, every one of these stories I look back on, I just cannot help but shake my head. Like, it's so embarrassing to picture me in that situation. And I explained it in great detail in the book. All the reasons why, like, what, what is going on with this dude? And, and the backdrop is you already got to it. It's like what got me to the cockpit of the Raptor was, dude, top of my class in, in the basic school to get a flight training spot. Top my class in flight school, get selected for Hornets combat deployments in the carrier. Top Gun number one student, Top Gun, like all this stuff. Senior instructor, Top Gun ground combat leader, been in ramadi, flew the F16. And. And I get, I get hand picked for this job with maybe 150 other applicants. I'm the dude. And I get there and it's like, on paper, there is not a more qualified naval aviator to be doing this job. And I get in. The first part of Raptor training is like how the systems work. Like how the engines work and how the hydraulics work and like navigating around very easy. Just, there's nothing tactical about it. Just this pipe and this lever and this, this battery. Like, you learn that stuff super easy. So I got through the first phase of training very quickly in the Rapture because it wasn't. You just listen and take notes and study and this is fine. This was the tactics phase. How do you employ this jet? And I can't go in like a ton of detail, but I will just, I'll explain it this way is. I had built in the F18 and the F16. A lot of habits. I had done things so many, I could basically fly those jets in my sleep. Like, I just, I knew what to do. I had, I had been an instructor at Top Gun. I knew everything there was tactically to do. I was so comfortable. It's probably like at the height of your, like, hey, go take your seals and clear out this building. You'd be like, roger, no factor. You just know what to do. It doesn't mean it's not hard, but, but you're not like, you. You're not insecure about understanding what you're supposed to do. Very, very simply put, the, the two things that makes the F22 unique unlike any other. Remember, this is the first and only fifth generation airplane in the world at the time. The first one is, is something that's really hard to, to understand is this is a stealth airplane. When you're in an F18 or an F16, you don't spend any time wondering if people can see you. You are visible. From the second you take off, everybody good, bad radars, everybody sees you. In a Raptor, you are number one. The biggest benefit you have is they can't see you. So all of your decisions, where you point, where you move, all the things that you do, the number one criteria that you're considering for your movements is to stay invisible. You don't even. There's not a brain cell that you use in an F18 to avoid detection. You just, you just know that they see you. So every decision you make is different. And the problem is, is like, once you start getting into the tactics, what you rely on is tactics. It'd be like if I told you everything you knew about Jiu jitsu, like, there's a new thing now and it doesn't work. You're like. And I go, hey, just forget all the stuff that you learned. You're like.
- [72:31]
Jocko Willink
So I actually have an exact comparison.
- [72:34]
Dave Burke
Well, you, I, I know it, it'll be good. And you can, you'll have to elaborate on that. Picture me in the cockpit is like, okay, we're good. We're going to do an intercept. A very basic tactic against this other enemy aircraft. And like everything I do on habit, he's like, that's wrong. Don't do that. Like, and I'm paraphrasing, it's a little more complex than that. But ultimately, every bias, every tendency, every inclination, every instinct I had was wrong. And so not only is all my experience not a benefit, it actually, it's a liability. It's the opposite. It's worse. If I had shown up, had never been in an airplane, I would have learned quicker, if that makes sense. So I'm in this thing, like, and I'm realizing, like, I don't know what to. I had not felt like that in an airplane in a decade. And I'm in an airplane, I'm like, I. I don't know what to do. And intercept after intercept, I'm. I. And I get to a point, I'm like, I kind of like in the cockpit, like, I don't. And I had, like, it just, I, I kind of said something like, what the is going on? Like, I said that out loud. And, like, then the next intercept, and it's like, oh, my. And. And that's it. At some point, I'm just like. I kind of, like, dropped the. You know, I was in a sim. I did nothing. I kind of just like. And I just. Just, like, lost it. And thank God the instructor was a really cool dude. And you. There's, you know, there's like. There's some comms in there. Like, I get through this whole thing. And he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I need a minute. You know, he's like, hey, dude, take all the time you need. Like, he was super cool with that whole thing, but it was a realization of all the things I thought were the benefit, the reason I was there was all these things that I had, all these experiences, all this knowledge, all this capability, all this skill. And like I said, it wasn't that. It wasn't helpful. It was actually the opposite. It. It was. It was a liability. And it got me to a place where it's like. It was a. It was a absolute low point. I'm like, may I? Maybe I don't even belong. Like, this is bad. It was. It was an epic meltdown. It was rough.
- [74:37]
Jocko Willink
My exact comparison to that. So, as you know, I spent my adult life in the SEAL teams, and when you're in the SEAL teams, you know, you're. You're either, you know, obviously go on deployment, you're going against bad guys, humans. But also, you know, I spent 20 years training and approaching targets and setting up on targets and, you know, avoiding being seen and, you know, operating, trying to kill other human beings. So I end up getting into hunting, and I'm elk hunting. And so I'm kind of, like, out in the woods for the first time with my buddy John Dudley. And this is. This is the exact same thing. So my whole life I've been, you know, trying to hunt humans, and now I'm trying to hunt elk. Well, there is the most significant difference. The number one priority when it comes to hunting humans is you don't want them to see you and you don't want them to hear you. Right? So you're, you know, you learn how to use the terrain. You're watching where your feet go, like, all that stuff. You know, what you have to watch out for. With elk, like, far and away, the biggest thing that you have to be concerned with is smell. So, like, everything that I had learned and their. Their vision isn't that good, their hearing is. Is good. But they don't. They don't really react to it as much as a human does. And so you have to. You take all the tactics that you learned about terrain and movement and all this stuff and dead space, all these things, you look, camouflage. You throw all that out the window, and it's all about, hey, you. You. You have to be, you know, you have to have the wind in the right direction. You have to be, you know, walking into the wind, so the wind's blowing your scent away from them. And so everything that you learned is just blown out the window. So that's exactly the situation you're in. Everything that you would do to avoid, you know, contact and all this stuff is just gone because they can't see you anymore. And that's the same thing with an elk. An elk literally can't see you. They really can't see. I mean, you got to be really obvious. You're going to be moving, like, actively, and they'll. They'll see you. But their eyesight sucks. But their sense of smell is incredible. So there you go. That's my. There you go. That's my deal. That being said, there are a bunch of similarities, because once you figure that out, then you are playing a very similar game. Yeah. Which did that come into play? Eventually, of course.
- [77:03]
Dave Burke
I mean, clearly, at some point, I cracked the code, right? And a lot of it was. All my instructors are like, hey, take all the time you need. We've all been there. They'd all gone through that same transition. And I think the coolest part about that was they also understood it was, like, twice as hard for me because I'm now a Marine. And you know this. If you take how, like the Navy and the Marine Corps and the Air Force, just this. The language is like, whatever we say, they're like, we don't say that. We say this instead. So you have, like, this constant, like, this translation of, like, all the words that you use. They got, oh, we have a different word for that. And so I'm in this really tough spot where I'm having to learn all these new things, and then this whole, like, take everything I know and throw it out the window. They were very patient. And, yeah, it took a little bit longer, you know, a couple more months than I would have liked. But then, like, with everything, oh, I got once you get it, like, oh, then you got it. And. And once you get it, you get it. And I did eventually get it. And my raptor experience was nothing but positive. But this moment, I can't even Remember his name. I wish I could. If this guy, who. My instructor reads this book, he's gonna be like, that was me. I was there. I remember it. I wish I could remember. I hope he does. And as soon as he says the name, like, I'll remember it. He was a young captain, you know, he's probably out of the Air Force at this point. He's gonna. I guarantee you he went back. It's like, dudes, you should have seen what the.
- [78:26]
Jocko Willink
What.
- [78:26]
Dave Burke
What the Marine did. Like, I'm sure it was a story that got out and well deserved. But to their credit, all those guys were, like, so cool to me and help me. And then the light comes on. Like, cool. And then I spent the rest of my career loving this new. Like, it was awesome. I loved it. But it was a painful, humbling. I was just so, so resistant to admit that everything I'd done to put me in the seat of that airplane no longer mattered. And it was just. I just. I couldn't do it. I just. I just had a hard time accepting what got me there. Wasn't going to get me any farther. And that's a. It was a tough day, man.
- [79:03]
Jocko Willink
Does this increase our respect level for Chuck Yeager and, like, the test pilots? I would be like, oh, what, you got a jet? Let me get in that thing. I'll fly it.
- [79:12]
Dave Burke
Figure it out. Yeah, I have high regard for that mentality of like, you don't know what you're doing. Be open minded. Be willing to be flexible. Don't take your preconceived notions. And whatever you do, don't take the answer into the cockpit before the problem reveals itself. And that's what I like. I know this tactical problem. I know exactly what do. I've seen this tactical problem 50 times, 500 times, no factor. That didn't work. Okay, run it again. Hey, that didn't work. Okay. And by, like, run for him. Like, I literally don't know what to do. I keep dying. Why am I dying? This is ridiculous.
- [79:44]
Jocko Willink
The mechanics of flying. Tactics out the window. Like, tactics don't count.
- [79:49]
Dave Burke
Mechanics of flying are, like, the same. The same. It takes you about 10 minutes to go. Okay? The stick, the throw. Like, the mechanics of getting good at, like, being really good at takes a little bit of time, but the Mechanics of flying. F18, 16, 20. Like, it's all the same. The tactics are everything.
- [80:04]
Jocko Willink
And then how long is it to switch from one aircraft to the other one? Like, go.
- [80:13]
Dave Burke
So this is the story of going from the. The F18. F16. They're very similar. Kind of keeping them together to the F22 was really hard. When I went from 22 to 35, it was like no facts, no factor, super easy because the, what makes them similar is 95. There's a, there's a couple small difference. You get used to those little things. But those two airplanes are so much more alike than they are different. And the flying part is just not. That's not the hard part. It's knowing what to do. And it's like if like it's take 15 years and every instinct you have and it's now wrong. And that is just, it's, it's in a place where like you don't want to spend a lot of time like you know, going a thousand, like thinking about what you're doing. When you're going that fast, you don't want to have to be thinking too often. You want to be pretty quick on the decision making matrix. And I had gotten good at that. Like, boom, I can decide for something. You know me, I talk too fast, I think too fast. Like I'm comfortable in those settings. And so the, the time to decide what to do. Things were getting past me and I was like, bad situation, dying, failing before my brain could even like even know what's going on. And so it wasn't like I didn't know what to do. It was like, I don't know what's happening right now. And that led to like the most epic tantrum of a grown man, you know, in high def in front of this other dude who's like probably eight years junior to me. Just like, keep going, sir. Just get out of your system. You're good. I'm like, thanks, bro. He was awesome. He's a great dude. Thank God.
- [81:43]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. With my ego in check, you go on to say, I found myself listening and learning from people who are younger and younger and less experienced. Less and less experience. To my surprise and delighted helped. Embracing the change came quickly in part because the results presented themselves immediately. My performance and tactical training improved dramatically as I demonstrated the ability to execute maneuvers that made the F22 so lethal. I was eventually selected as the commander of the F22 division at Nellis.
- [82:12]
Dave Burke
It's crazy.
- [82:14]
Jocko Willink
An unheard of opportunity for a marine, but one which I took seriously and for which I will forever be thankful. Things had come for full circle. I was now leading a crop of newly transitioned Raptor pilots still struggling with change. So you ended up being the commander of the F22 division and that's an Air Force division. Yes, bro.
- [82:34]
Dave Burke
I know, dude.
- [82:35]
Jocko Willink
It's crazy. That's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And how long did you have that billet for?
- [82:40]
Dave Burke
About a year.
- [82:40]
Jocko Willink
You took a Air Force officers. What level is that?
- [82:46]
Dave Burke
Colonel.
- [82:47]
Jocko Willink
A lieutenant colonel Slot Majorly. Yeah.
- [82:49]
Dave Burke
Trigger Volgo if you're listening. Thank you. That was all trigger triggers. Awesome, dude.
- [82:55]
Jocko Willink
Freaking epic. Good deal, Dave. We are learning it all over again, bro. There's a reason. Here's the lesson. We resist change, but we shouldn't. And I'll start this one off with a quote as well. What happens to companies that don't innovate and adapt over time? What happens to people when they refuse change? In almost every case, companies that don't change collapse. Just as people who don't change are doomed to fail. Your real world application starts off with a quote. It really is how we all, how we've always done it. God, it's so people should choke themselves when they hear that. But they don't. They still say it. That time worn phrase was quickly followed by and I know how that sounds. He nearly winced at his own comment. He knew. So there you go.
- [83:43]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [83:43]
Jocko Willink
What was his deal?
- [83:45]
Dave Burke
Dude, this was a company man that had been like dominating their, their, their space for like a long time and like they kind of rolled up some other competitors. Like they were doing great and like in the previous couple years, like really in the last 18 months, like their numbers started to drop. Their you know, kind of a tech based company and they, they were marketing in like a pretty niche area and they'd hired a bunch of new people. Like oh, we had this awesome recruiting process from the best schools and some of the best minds in this, this kind of like tech marketing space to try to win in their feel that they had been the best company. But for the last 18 months like oh, our numbers are going down. And the craziest thing is they had this, this whole story about who they brought in, how smart these kids were, how much they, you know, they were going to contribute. And every time one of these new kids had an idea, they're like, we're not doing that. And I'm paraphrasing, there's obviously way more depth. And when they would and when these young kids had the audacity to say why not? Instead of just doing what they're told, the answer was essentially this. We know what we're doing. We've always done it this way and it's worked. And what they're dealing was like they were dealing with a muni where these young kids were like, oh, I'm going to leave. I'm not going to work for you. This is stupid. You don't listen to anything I said. And you know, you're in this meeting and you're kind of talking through like, what's the problem? And the problem was like, oh, they don't know what they're doing. And then you, you know, you ask a couple earnest questions and then at some point they go, oh my God. And they kind of look around like, oh my God. We're not, we're not letting. We're not listening to what they're saying. They're telling us we have to make these changes. We're not doing it. So it's so obvious from the outside. I know how. And the point is, like, I know how. That's much easier said than done from the inside. But dude, resisting change is going to kill you. You resist change over time, it's going to kill you in your company.
- [85:36]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. And there's an even a more extreme irony behind beside like hiring freaking young people that have all these great ideas because they have great ideas and then not listening to them.
- [85:48]
Dave Burke
It's crazy, right? It's crazy. Well, that's the stuff we see. And, and the fun part is taking like, oh, that reminds me of when I got in the F22. Like, I don't need to listen to you. How do you think I got here? Dude, you know, I know what I'm doing. It's like, oh, actually you don't. And it's not good.
- [86:03]
Jocko Willink
Check chapter nine. Put the team first sea of Japan 23 miles behind the carrier February 2000 and by the way, the font that's used for those little date time settings is like a military top gun looking font, which I appreciate. I'm a. I'm a font. Affectiono. Affectionado. Yeah, so I like that you get that vibe. It's like the vibe from any military movie that's going to tell you where it's taken place. 100%. What is that? Courier new or something?
- [86:35]
Dave Burke
Yeah, that sells it. But it could picture the like the little.
- [86:38]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, 99 taxi lights on. My stomach immediately turned inside out. If another carrier pilot is reading this, they get it because 99 taxi lights on is possibly the most dreaded call of all of naval aviation. On the ship, radio calls are normally preceded by your aircraft number and the information that is communicated after that number applies to only you. 203, you're cleared to climb to 4000ft. 107 descend and maintain 1200ft. Other pilots may hear the call directed at you, but if you don't hear your aircraft number, it's just background information for them and not paid much heed. When a radio call is preceded by 99, however, it means the information about to be transmitted applies to everyone. It's an efficient way to share critical information needed by all airborne jets to coordinate the recovery. Back to the ship. 99, the carrier is in a turn. 99, expected fire. Final bearing is 350 degrees. Everyone pays attention to typical 99 calls, but no one gets nauseated. 99 taxi lights on, however, has the same effect on the stomach as week old sushi. It's not a call that helps anyone do any coordinating or adjusting. It just tells everyone that weather, the weather is bad. End of days, apocalyptic bad. Yeah, bro, you did a good job writing this book. This is such a good chapter. So 99, what it means is everyone listen and then turn your lights on. Means we can't see any of you guys at all. The weather freaking sucks. So dude, you go through this story, it's like, it's like edge of your seat reading because it just sucks. Get the book, get the book. I'm gonna fast forward a little bit so you, you basically now you're coming in, you're. You're on a. What is that? Okay, so it's. You can't, you can't. Let's set the stage a little bit. You can't see the ship, can't see anything. You can't. There's no where you're at South China Sea? Is that where you are? See Japan. See Japan. There's. There's no other option?
- [89:04]
Dave Burke
Nope. No divert.
- [89:05]
Jocko Willink
It's like when, when my first child was born, my wife was in labor and my wife looks at my mother in law and says something along the lines of like, I don't think I can do this. And my mother in law looked at her like.
- [89:20]
Dave Burke
This is happening.
- [89:21]
Jocko Willink
This is what's happening. You know, and so this is the same thing. Like, there's no, like, hey, I don't think I could do this. Oh, and by the way, we have a podcast guest coming who didn't get aboard. Yep, he didn't get aboard. And he caused a problem and he didn't get aboard. And he got ejected from the pipeline after all the training and he went to the, he was a navy guy, academy guy. Couldn't get aboard, didn't get aboard. Went to the detailer, flew to the detailer and said, do not send me To a ship. He's like, well, I got something else for you. Yep. He said, send me to buds. And he goes, well, right now I got a ship for you in Hawaii. It's not going to be that bad. He goes, I'm not going on a ship. I'll take buds. And he goes, well, if you, when you wash out, when you wash out a bud, since you just washed out of carrier training, when you wash out a Buds, it ain't going to be pretty orders like you got right now to Hawaii. He said, send me to buds. So he ended up Vietnam seal, epic seal in Vietnam.
- [90:29]
Dave Burke
So I would kill to be, to listen to his story.
- [90:31]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, it's coming, it's coming out on the next couple podcasts. But what a great guy, great leader, but. And you know, he was like extremely humbling, you know.
- [90:42]
Dave Burke
The ship is no joke, man.
- [90:43]
Jocko Willink
The ship is no joke. The ship is no joke. So you can't see the ship. So what do you just. It's pure instrument, pure instruments, 100%. And are you seeing, does it paint like a fake picture of where the ship is? No, you're just looking at the horizon. What's that instrument called?
- [91:03]
Dave Burke
The hud. Yeah, the hud. The heads up display.
- [91:05]
Jocko Willink
The heads up display is showing you.
- [91:07]
Dave Burke
What it's a, it's a computer readout of the horizon. Your angle of bank, your, your altitude.
- [91:12]
Jocko Willink
That's my point is you see the horizon, but it's not the real horizon. Correct. It's fake.
- [91:16]
Dave Burke
Yes.
- [91:16]
Jocko Willink
So you see a fake horizon. Yep. You see kind of where you are and is, does it give you any indication of where the ship is?
- [91:23]
Dave Burke
Yes. You have a little computer generator and it tells you like, and distance is called dme. Yes. So you have all the information you need and we get good at deciphering that. So that's like that by itself is not disorienting. It's just a skill you learn. Like, okay, this arrow means this, these number means that. And like it's fine. And by the way, even on a clear night, quote unquote night, you can't see the ship until maybe the last, you know, a really nice night, you could see the ship 6, 7 miles away, which is cool.
- [91:49]
Jocko Willink
Which is how many minutes?
- [91:51]
Dave Burke
Four or five.
- [91:52]
Jocko Willink
Okay.
- [91:52]
Dave Burke
Like you. Oh, I see it on the horizon. And certainly the last two minutes you have a really nice clear picture. And ironically, like, the darker it is, the more clear the ship is because the contrast of the lights. But up until like the last, literally the last 20 seconds for the most part Even when you do see the ship, you're still flying those instruments. So flying the instruments is fine. It's just. You get used to it, bro.
- [92:14]
Jocko Willink
Is some of this aircraft carrier landing, I just realized some of this is faith based, you know what I'm saying? Like if you're not seeing something until 20 seconds, that is a faith based evolution.
- [92:28]
Dave Burke
Yes. There's a lot of faith being put in all sorts of things. Your technology, your procedures. But other than. I think I had one and I had one other landing like this in right off the, right off San Diego. Every other landing at some point you see it with your eyes and you're like, okay, it's no more. It's. You see it. Which is. I don't care who. Like, that's human instinct, is that once you see something, for better, for worse, like that's what you want. I just want to see this thing. I can see the boat, I can see the ball, I can see the lineup. I can, I can land.
- [92:58]
Jocko Willink
So normally you get, at best case scenario, you get five minutes of seeing the ship. Sometimes it gets down to two bad scenarios. It's going to be like 20 seconds. All right, there it is.
- [93:10]
Dave Burke
Cool. Yeah, that's right.
- [93:11]
Jocko Willink
So all you can, can see is black.
- [93:14]
Dave Burke
It's kind of an interesting thing. I talk about it. The first thing I see is like green streaks. Remember I was talking about that? Like there's these. I'm in the clouds, but everything, it's. Everything is off. Like it's dark, so it's just pitch black. But I see these green streaks going up over the cockpit. Can't. The glass and I can't figure out what those are. They almost look like electrical, like staticky things. And what it was, was a snow. Snow would build up and fly off in chunks and little white streaks were flying up over the can.
- [93:43]
Jocko Willink
And because your lights are on, it's hitting the snow. Or is it just the lights from inside the cockpit?
- [93:48]
Dave Burke
Yeah, it just, it's just the way it was reflecting off the little din, the little glow of that. So I'm like, oh, we're like. I understood before the landing that we were in a snowstorm. I understood that. Can't see anything, but you can see the snow pile up and just these little. It's hard to describe. I just call them white streaks.
- [94:05]
Jocko Willink
So you're in, you're seeing little white streaks. Your visibility is zero. Zero visibility, literally zero. Zero.
- [94:12]
Dave Burke
Correct.
- [94:13]
Jocko Willink
You're from California. But you, but you did live in, in Nevada. So you drove in the snow Before I. Virginia.
- [94:20]
Dave Burke
I'd. Yes. I.
- [94:21]
Jocko Willink
It's weird. Echo. Charles. Ever driven in the snow before? In a snowstorm?
- [94:24]
Dave Burke
In a. Yeah. Yeah I have actually.
- [94:26]
Jocko Willink
At night?
- [94:27]
Dave Burke
No. No it was not at night.
- [94:29]
Jocko Willink
So if it's at night and it's a bad snowstorm you turn on your lights and you. You can see less because it just makes bright white cloud. Like bright white things in front of your face.
- [94:40]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [94:40]
Jocko Willink
Like super super thick fog.
- [94:42]
Dave Burke
Same thing.
- [94:43]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Probably something similar to that. So you can see nothing. They're talking you on. I'm trying to figure out where to pick this up. The three mile mark I began my final descent toward the ship. Normally by this point I would have seen the visual cues on the carrier to validate my alignment and confirm I was set up for a good final approach. Not tonight. There's nothing to see but flashes of snow, my HUD and the glow of my taxi light shining up from the nose of my jet reminding me of how deep in the weeds we all were. My eyes never left my instrument readouts again. This is a faith based operation. God. I was so paranoid I would get off course or altitude and make a fatal mistake while I dropped through 450ft. A shrieking whoop whoop blared in my headset as my jet notified me of my descent through my final altitude check. So that's a normal warning.
- [95:47]
Dave Burke
Correct.
- [95:47]
Jocko Willink
Like you get to 450ft and it goes beep beep.
- [95:49]
Dave Burke
Set the ride out on purpose. You set it to 450 as. Like that as your final alert. Like hey you're. You're. You're getting really close to the ground. To the water. Yep. It's by you do it by design. It's part of the sop. You know it's there.
- [96:01]
Jocko Willink
Normally I would have anticipated the startling alert. A sign I was mentally focused and toggled it off right as it sounded. But I was so overwhelmed it completely caught me off guard. Next was the call from air traffic control. 203 on course on glidescope. Three quarters of a mile. Call the ball. So he's saying to you okay dude, we got you. And he's just watching you on radar because they can't see anything at all.
- [96:24]
Dave Burke
They're in the bottom of the ship on radar.
- [96:28]
Jocko Willink
203 Clara. What's Clara mean?
- [96:31]
Dave Burke
Clara means I do not see the ball.
- [96:33]
Jocko Willink
203 Clara. I replied trying to hide it. Hey, do us all a favor right now. Just make that call right now. What did you say? Like 203 Clara and Claire is a term used to inform the LSO. I didn't see the ball or the ship or on this night, anything. 203. Keep it coming. And that's how they're talking, right?
- [96:55]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [96:57]
Jocko Willink
They didn't see me either. Because otherwise, what would they have said to you?
- [97:01]
Dave Burke
They'd say, paddles, contact. You're high, you're low, you're on. They'd say, I see you. You're on glide slope. And they're like. Their way of saying, I don't see you is keep it coming. Like we're looking. Eventually we'll see you. So you're about. This is about the 18 seconds from landing. You're three quarters a mile behind the ship. I tell them I don't see them. And they say in Navy speed. And I. They say, we don't see you either.
- [97:23]
Jocko Willink
Roger. Coming. They didn't see me either. I continued to fly the instruments, having never been this close to a ship without seeing it. 203 paddles, contact. They finally saw me. So what does paddles mean?
- [97:39]
Dave Burke
The LSOs, the. The landing signals officer, they have a radio and. And they're talking to you. Back in the day, World War II, see these old videos, the guys stand out, and they're holding on their hands these paddles, and they'd hold them up and down and flip them around. And those visual cues from the paddles would tell the pilots is before these radios, it was a visual. They were holding these paddles railroad white, and they'd flip them around. So the nickname of an LSO is. They call them, hey, you're a paddles. So I was an lso, and part of my job on the ship was I was a lead. I trained and led an LSO team. Your nickname is Paddles.
- [98:11]
Jocko Willink
So that's his call sign, paddles. So 203. Paddles, contact. So that means I see you.
- [98:15]
Dave Burke
Lso is the. Is paddle saying, we see you.
- [98:18]
Jocko Willink
Yep. They finally saw me. Right. For lineup. Power. Is that you? That's it?
- [98:25]
Dave Burke
No.
- [98:25]
Jocko Willink
Okay. Listening.
- [98:26]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [98:27]
Jocko Willink
And you say P O W E E E R. Yeah, like power.
- [98:31]
Dave Burke
That's exactly.
- [98:31]
Jocko Willink
Is there a little.
- [98:32]
Dave Burke
You'd be a great lso. That was exactly right.
- [98:34]
Jocko Willink
And are they. Is there like even a smidgen of, like, a little bit, like, power, like you.
- [98:41]
Dave Burke
You are taught, and we learn this as lsos. If I say little power. Power.
- [98:47]
Jocko Willink
Power.
- [98:48]
Dave Burke
You can tell same word. And you. The inflection is built into what I want you to hear. Because if I say power, you're like, okay, cool. Like, that's a small shot of power. If I say power, that's a long blast on power. So that extended eee, there's an inflection with that with him, which is saying, like, you have to do this immediately. And a lot and way more than a little power would be like, almost an indiscernible little shot of power. He's seeing something you don't see, and he's just keeping you from settling. That call was like, holy, dude, we need this. Like, I just instinctively just like, threw the left hand.
- [99:28]
Jocko Willink
And why is he telling you to do that?
- [99:30]
Dave Burke
Because by the time he sees me and recognizes where I am, I'm.
- [99:34]
Jocko Willink
I'm dangerously low, and power is going.
- [99:38]
Dave Burke
To climb me back up.
- [99:40]
Jocko Willink
Lift you up a little bit. That's right. And that's just because you're going slower. And so when you add power, or is the angle of your aircraft pointed slightly up at this point, so when you add power, just immediately heads up a little bit.
- [99:52]
Dave Burke
Yeah. So you set in carrier aviation different than Air force and commercial and civilian flying, is when you land in the carrier, you set the angle. We call it angle of attack. The whole point of setting the angle is. And you know, on the. On the screen, you'll see it. But like the. When the tail hook comes down, the hook has to be in a certain place to grab the wire. And so if your jet is flat, the nose is down, the hook is up. The hook will go over the wires. If you're too cocked up, if your nose is really high and the hook is really low, you'll hit the ship. So you set this angle.
- [100:26]
Jocko Willink
What is it, like 10 degrees? It's.
- [100:27]
Dave Burke
It's. You're on a 3 degrees glide slope and an 8.1 degree. Why? I know that it's 8.1 degrees.
- [100:34]
Jocko Willink
That sounds like a good thing to know.
- [100:36]
Dave Burke
We knew all this. Yeah, totally. We tossed train all it. So that 8.1 degrees sets the perfect angle of the hook. And so your entire descent, you maintain that. And all power does is if you add power, the jet rises. If you take power down, the jet lowers, but you never change the angle. The instinct is, if you're low, as you can imagine, is you want to pull back in the stick to bring the nose up. That's the. The worst thing you can do because it gets you slower, you'll fall more, and the hook goes even farther down. You increase your chances of hitting the ship. So you do not mess with the nose. You got to keep the nose exactly perfectly trimmed. So if you get Low. The only solution then is adding power will bring you up on the glide slope. That call is his way of saying, like, dude, you need to add a lot of power right now. And I was a little bit off. I was a little bit lined up in the wrong. So right for lineup, if you can picture as you roll the jet, when you roll the jet, you lose a little bit of lift because your wings aren't flat anymore. So you're going to fall even more. So he's saying, right for lineup, you're going to get even lower. So you really need to add power, dude.
- [101:40]
Jocko Willink
What is the qualification course to become an lso?
- [101:43]
Dave Burke
Just like everything else in the Navy, man. You go out, you take a bunch of classes, you get some academics and some sims, and then you go shadow an experience lso.
- [101:52]
Jocko Willink
How long do you shadow us experience LSO for?
- [101:54]
Dave Burke
So my. I got selected to be an LSO before my first cruise. I did a bunch of fields, a bunch of field training with qualified LSOs. And then eventually, you know, they make you watch. Then they, like, you sit next to them, then you talk, and they're next to you. And then at some point, you've proven that you can do it. By my second deployment, I was a team lead. Like, I ran my own team, so took a full deployment, but by my second deployment, I was in charge of a team.
- [102:18]
Jocko Willink
Does everyone become an LSO?
- [102:20]
Dave Burke
Negative, dude. LSO, especially for the Navy, like, they'll pick, like, two or three guys.
- [102:25]
Jocko Willink
It's.
- [102:25]
Dave Burke
It's.
- [102:26]
Jocko Willink
It's.
- [102:26]
Dave Burke
Their best guys are LSOs.
- [102:29]
Jocko Willink
It's a.
- [102:29]
Dave Burke
It's a very coveted qual in the Navy. The Marine Corps doesn't. You know, the Marine Corps is always kind of like, whatever, but it is. If you're an LSO at the ship, that is a coveted qual that people really want. And they. They give it to the guys they put a lot of faith in. It's a qual that I. I am really look back on with very fondly. That was a win called and a team lead lso. It was awesome. You are the guy bringing home all the jets. And you know what?
- [102:54]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [102:54]
Dave Burke
99 times out of 100, you don't need to do anything. No factor. Every now and then, you are the difference between Dave Burke crashing in the back of ship and Dave Brook laning that guy.
- [103:06]
Jocko Willink
That's what it sounds like here.
- [103:07]
Dave Burke
That's.
- [103:08]
Jocko Willink
That's what he did, right for lineup power. My response was pure reflex as I shoved the throttles forward, not all the way, but just enough for A good shot of thrust, trying to give the LSO what he wanted. Bam. Tug. Wait, what? Holy crap. I was aboard and I never saw a thing. Faith based landing, Instrument based landing, Team trust landing. That's nuts. And you only had one other complete, complete, no visual landing.
- [103:42]
Dave Burke
I had another 00 landing. It was day San Diego. Just one of those days where the, you know, the, the marine layer rolled in, caught us off guard. And like the ship I, I got aboard in 00 and that one was kind of crazy because it was in training and training is the wrong word workups, not training work as a Hornet squadron. And it just, when I launched, it was like, man, it's totally good day. This one we kind of took off like it's kind of a sketchy day maybe or at night, you know, it's two in the morning kind of thing. Maybe we shouldn't be doing this. The other one was like middle of the day work up and totally caught the whole ship off guard.
- [104:18]
Jocko Willink
Does on that, like on that day anyone to go, hey, dude, go ahead and land at North Island.
- [104:23]
Dave Burke
How do I say this? That sounded like a total tool. I was the only guy to get aboard every other jet diverted to North Island.
- [104:33]
Jocko Willink
Maybe you earn in some of those deals.
- [104:36]
Dave Burke
If and for any of the, like the coolest part about that story I just told you, Ron Rostek, if you're listening, he, he just like hit me up on like LinkedIn. He was on the flight deck when I had that 00 landing on the ship. And he's like, sir, totally remember that other landing? Like your eyes were as big as saucers. But you're the only guy that like, he just messaged me. I have that. I should probably show it to you. But like as you can imagine, like I'm, I'm kind of shaking right now. Re recalling that stuff. Those are like some of the most memorable experiences of my entire lifetime. This is 00 landing. That is a absolute like you. I didn't use the words before that. The concept of being faith based like you kind of like what just happened? The margin for error is so small. And the, and the. If you get outside the margin for error, it is. I mean we're talking jets exploding. Like, it's just death.
- [105:40]
Jocko Willink
It's death.
- [105:41]
Dave Burke
It's. It is. So the fact that when I'm like, what just happened? That is, I'm like, I was like, what just happened? Like, if there was somebody next to me, I would have looked him like, what just happened? It was, it's so hard to Describe like you were just like, I cannot believe that just happened. How did I land? And that's how I felt. I talk about that like crazy.
- [106:03]
Jocko Willink
And if people couldn't get aboard, is there like a Sea of Japan? Do they just. I mean have there been situations like that have occurred in the world where it was like we had to send tankers down there and get people like transition to another area or whatever?
- [106:18]
Dave Burke
Very uncommon. We also, there are what we call blue water ops. Like the ship has to be certified. The pilots have to be certified for no divert operations.
- [106:28]
Jocko Willink
No divert, meaning you can't divert to anywhere else.
- [106:30]
Dave Burke
There's sometimes the nearest land bringing over.
- [106:32]
Jocko Willink
To north island, bro.
- [106:34]
Dave Burke
That other one was like, Burke's out there.
- [106:36]
Jocko Willink
Just feed up on the desk. Yo.
- [106:40]
Dave Burke
The craziest thing about that one is like they all went to the beach and like, like went home and I'm like, like stuck on the ship, you know, it was like ridiculous. But it's very uncommon. The ship is well equipped to handle that stuff. So like there the tanker, like. But dude, every now and then it's a thing. It's every now and then it's a problem. It's.
- [107:04]
Jocko Willink
It's just goes with the territory. 00 daytime San Diego. And when did the aircraft pick you up? Did winded paddles? Same thing. Whereas like moments, literally moments before, very similar.
- [107:18]
Dave Burke
I think that this, the. The difference in the daytime and the nighttime and that's. And the, the north island or the San Diego one and the Sea of Japan one. When we started coming back on that daytime one here in San Diego, two things. One, it's daytime, so it just feels different. It just, just feels different. I don't care who you are. It just. It's easier during the day.
- [107:41]
Jocko Willink
Okay, I was gonna say.
- [107:42]
Dave Burke
And. And so that one is an interesting landing. You know, this like the marine layer. Typically around here the marine layer is like search around 800 and stops around 1500. So it's crystal clear above and crystal clear below. And so we spent the whole flight like above it. Like it's a clear blue sky day. We're training, we're fighting hard. And when you're coming back to land, you're like, okay, I'm going to go in at 1500, break through it and I'm going to break out it. You know, I'll break out with like a half a mile, no factor or maybe the full thing. And it's one of those. You're like, clara, what? And like paddles is like makes a quick call, I get Aboard kind of a similar situation. The difference between those two is on that one, I'm just a young guy listening, just doing what I'm told.
- [108:20]
Jocko Willink
On the same daytime on the San.
- [108:22]
Dave Burke
Diego one, you also. I had no sense that this was going to happen. There's no, like, fear. There's no anxiety. You're like, man, whatever. Marine layer is just a thing around here. You just go in at some altitude and come out another. So when that happened, I landed. It was like, holy crap. And like, the next jet behind me didn't get aboard. You hear that, the jet flying away, and you look up, you don't see anything. And on the radio, they're like, 99, your signals divert. Everybody go to north island, which is like. Or maybe they even went to Miramar. Like, the Marines probably went to Miramar. The Navy guys went to North Island. It's beautiful. Like, it wasn't some big thing. This one was like, everybody has to get aboard or they're going to. They're going to crash or run out of gas or it's going to be a major thing. I knew that for like 45 minutes. And so, like, that 99 tax light on call probably came 30 minutes before my landing. So you're just sitting up there in the cockpit, heart rates, like at 150. You're just like, nauseous. Like, how. How am I going to do this? I will. This is the only way for me to, like, say, I know what your wife was talking about having not done. That's exactly how I felt was like, I don't think I can do this. And I think even mentioned there, I'm like, I don't think. I don't think I can do this. That's. That was the feeling I had. The other ones, like, it just happened. Like, what happened? Just kind of came and went and like, it was crazy. My buddy Ron was on the flight. He's like, oh, my God, dude, that was crazy. Your eyes were like saucers. I'm like, I know, right? This was totally different. Totally. We're deployed, we're underway. We're. We're. It's on my front. We're taking, you know, our sweet time to get there. But we're gonna go to Iraq. Like, it's a totally different scenario. This was like, way worse. Anyway, freaking good times. Naval aviation, man.
- [109:58]
Jocko Willink
Did you. So you might heard me talk about this a couple times, but I've been talking about how, like, mindset wise, like, humble, humble, humble, humble. When it's time to execute, put my night Vision goggles on. Like, dude, I'm. I'm getting it done. I'm gonna make the shot. I'm gonna do the thing. We're gonna make it happen. But you didn't have that feeling.
- [110:17]
Dave Burke
Nope.
- [110:17]
Jocko Willink
You were like, dude, I'm scared shitless the entire time.
- [110:20]
Dave Burke
This is my first deployment. It's the first month of deployment we had left San Diego. The first stop is Japan. This is like one of maybe. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if I look back at my logbook, this is like the fifth or sixth night landing of my entire operational career. And I'm just. And also, like, I won't lie, like the night carrier. Like, I'm so at some point you get you. You learn to manage it. I am at the basically the absolute very beginning of my night carrier landing career. So on a perfect night, I'm scared. On a perfect night, I'm scared. So this is just like, this is insane for me, young Chip. Like, like, there is definitely a time I'm in that cockpit. I can feel it. I can feel myself right now feeling this. Like, I don't know if I can do this. And you want to talk about the worst possible mindset to have in the cockpit of a single seat fighter. Like, I don't know if I can do this. And I carry that with me all the way to landing. Like, it's a very. That's why this chapter's in the book. That's why I wrote this story is this was a. That was a major hurdle for me. Yeah, Big, big thing.
- [111:31]
Jocko Willink
It's. I'm kind of surprised. Like, you know, I would expect you to be like, look, I was all. I was all nervous. And then, you know, a certain point I turned my downwind turn, took that final, you know, left turn starboard or whatever, port side turn. And I was like, I'm going to make this happen. But you were just like, horrified. Horrified.
- [111:52]
Dave Burke
And I, as, you know, like, I expand in great detail on what I'm thinking during this whole thing. Like, this is not a. This is another. Like, this dude is kind of barely hanging on. Like, barely hanging on. Good times.
- [112:08]
Jocko Willink
And here's the whole point of this chapter. You say literally nothing happened to my jet on that ship without that entire team. And you talk about it. Everyone did. I couldn't start an engine, taxi 1 inch of the flight deck, take off, land, or launch a weapon in combat without the support of countless people. And while it was me and my F18 dropping bombs who got the recognition in the newspapers and on TV I was only one cog in a machine of 5500 men and women doing the miraculous. It was the. The epitome of team effort. Is this the. Is this the. This is 2000.
- [112:42]
Dave Burke
2000.
- [112:43]
Jocko Willink
And this is where you dropped guided munitions for the first time.
- [112:46]
Dave Burke
Later in this deployment, I dropped the first JDAM in Iraq big time. And there's a little piece in there.
- [112:54]
Jocko Willink
I just.
- [112:54]
Dave Burke
I think it's a good deal there. First one, man. There's a little thing I think is worth mentioning is because. So I land, and I eventually make my way down to the ready room, and dudes are like, high five. And like, bro, good job. Like, I'm getting all this. Congratulations. And there's a little part of that I write in there, and I'm like, I was so stoked. I was so freaking stoked. So I'm like, hell, yeah, dude. I am. I am now etched in the. In the annals of naval aviation. I did the impossible. And then, like, a couple hours later, I'm in my room, and I'm like. When I'm alone, I'm like, I felt like a fraud because I'm like, I didn't. That was like, I literally. I don't know what happened. And what happened was I just. I flew my instruments, and the guy's like, power right for Roger, click. I'm in. But to say, like, oh, I did that. I really. I had a hard time. I struggle with that. And what I came to realize, like, dude, first of all, obviously, the LSO, clearly, but 20 other things happen that made. I was. I certainly played a role in it, no doubt. But, like, to say that, like, I did that, I really had a hard time with that. I could not get that out of my head. Like, dude. And there was a very humbling moment because up until that point, you're like, I'm the man. You know how I know I'm the man? Look every look around. Dave Burke in that cockpit. He's the man. And that one, like, I just couldn't get past, like, damn, dude. I just kind of felt like I felt. And I wrote it in there. I felt like a passenger in my own airplane. It was a weird feeling. And that was like, dude, you got to get out and see what's going on. That's when I started to learn about the ship and the jobs and the people and what they're doing. I'm like, oh, man, this thing is so much bigger than me. Hard to lesson to learn to teach a brand new young fighter pilot. Hey, this is not about you? What do you mean it's not about me? Like that movie, that's me. And like, so it was a very humbling thing to realize all these other things are going on. And that landing is what got me to think about that. Like, damn, dude.
- [114:48]
Jocko Willink
You know, again, going back to this idea of dealing with like, high stress situations and like, humble, humble, humble and then kind of, you know, execute. As I thought about how I figured that out, part of it was like, oh, and then when you join the military, like, okay, you're going to climb over the top of the Cargo net at Buds that's, I don't know, 50ft up in the air. Like, it's not comfortable if you're, you know, even if you are comfortable with heights, you're, you're basically flipping over the top of this thing and like, you can fall and die. Okay, cool. If you fall, you die. Let me, let's put it to you that way. And then the slide for life is the same thing. Like, you're, you know, you're going to get badly injured if you fall, but you, you know, you do it. And it's actually before that you're going over like the low wall and then the high wall and then you go over the cargo net and then you do the slide for life and then you're going to rappel off the tower and then you're going to rappel. Then you're going to fast rope off the tower and, and then you're going to rappel out of a helicopter and then you're going to fast rope out of a helicopter and then you're going to jump out of an aircraft static line. Then you're going to jump out free fall. So you're doing like all these things and each time, you know, let's say you're a little bit scared when you're going over the high wall a little bit, but you learn how to suppress it. And then you go over the cargo net a little scared going. But you learn how to suppress it. You go off the side for life, learn how to suppress it. And I don't know what you're doing with those feelings, but you know how Echo Charles deals with it, how Dave Brad Burke deals with it and how I deal with it. We might, I don't know what we all do individually, but we all figure out that there's this thing that's going to come over us and we're going to make, we're not going to pay attention to it or we're going to Deal with this way. We're going to breathe, we're going to look, we're going to, you know, tell ourselves we're badass, or say, I'm going to follow the protocols. Whatever you're going to do, you're going to do. But at some point, and I'm thinking about all the wickets that you have to go through to be in that position. They knew. I mean, because you think about. I mean, how many aircraft were in the air? Yeah.
- [116:35]
Dave Burke
12.
- [116:35]
Jocko Willink
So to all 12 people got aboard. 12 out of 12, like, that's pretty freaking awesome. To do something that is so difficult and so horrifying. And yet 12 out of 12 guys got a board. Yeah. And got it done. And who knows? You know, I bet if we interviewed all 12 of them, some guy to be like, oh, yeah. Whenever I got in those pressure situations, I would tell myself, look at the instruments. Pay attention to this. You know, they all would all have these little protocols.
- [117:01]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [117:02]
Jocko Willink
Of what they're gonna do, how they're gonna get through it. I'm the baddest guy on the planet. You know, I'm ready for this. I've trained for this, whatever those things are. And some of it might also be like, dude, I'm falling. Like, I have one cutaway from parachuting, like, where I got rid of my main parachute because it was not functioning. And, like, if you asked me what I didn't. Like, what was. What was I thinking? I was just, like, literally just doing what the things, you know, Like.
- [117:24]
Dave Burke
Oh.
- [117:25]
Jocko Willink
Yep. Look at my altimeter. Look up again. Check it. Shake it out. Nope, nothing. Look at the altimeter. Okay, this is.
- [117:30]
Dave Burke
Is.
- [117:30]
Jocko Willink
This is a decision time. Yep. 2,000ft. Cool. Arch, arch. Look, grab, look, grab pole, pull. Check, check. Okay, we're good. Like, it was that there was absolutely no.
- [117:41]
Dave Burke
Fear.
- [117:42]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Now, that same jump trip, I was watching one of my friends, and his parachute wasn't opening. And I'm yelling at him, I'm under canopy and I'm. He can't hear me, but I'm like. Well, I'm, like, caught away. Caught away. And, like, I'm scared for him.
- [117:59]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [117:59]
Jocko Willink
But two hours earlier, I had cut away with no emotions, and now watching one of my friends go low and. And he just got lucky because he didn't cut away. He should have. But his. His parachute eventually, like, opened, kind of, and he landed. But my reaction to that of watching it was like, dude, Paul, Paul, you cut away. And I was scared for him, but when I was in the situation, I wasn't Scared. I was just following the protocol. So, you know, you have that little procedure, and I. I did also break that down is like, what do I do in those situations? I'm not gonna go like, oh, I'm looking at something. And it's. I'm hesitant of, like, oh, wait a second. I feel that. That fear in doing something. I'm like, I'm going. I was skiing at Mammoth, and I was up on, like, for me, a very sketchy situation, and I was skiing with another dude. And we get out, like, we walk out to this end and do a little hike up, and now we're sitting over or standing over this thing, and there's rocks and snow and ice. And I can. This does not feel safe. A, this does not feel like a good decision. B. And I can. I can kind of tell by what the other individual is saying that he might not do, in fact, likely is not going to do this drop in. And, like, in those 1.5 seconds, I freaking launched and did it and pulled it. But I. I got back to thinking. I was like, oh, yeah, that was me executing that thing. I did. Even in the moment, I wasn't like, hey, when you're in a situation like this, you go, no, no. I was just like, oh, fear. Rocks, ice, snow, drop. Boom, boom, go. Like, that's what we're doing. And honestly, when I looked back on, I was like, I don't think I was in a. In a mode of thought. Yeah. It was just like, I know what to do when this feeling comes. You go, yeah. And that's what I did. So it'd be interesting as you think about this. Like, think about what was. What, like, was actually going through your mind, and it might be like me cutting away a free fall. Just like, yep, power up. Good. Cool. Toggle up. Yep. Watch the horizon. It's. It's in the right spot. And you've been taught those things. You're going to follow the protocol, and that's what you're going to do.
- [120:22]
Dave Burke
Yeah. The worst part about definitely was when you're in holding and you're just doing laps for probably 25 minutes, it's like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then, you know, then you start the process. Like you said, like, you're. It's all I talked about.
- [120:36]
Jocko Willink
The.
- [120:36]
Dave Burke
You know, the rat out went off. I'm like, oh, crap. I should have not. Like, that's a bad sign. I should have not have been caught off guard by that. So there's all the indicators, but definitely just sitting up There, like, waiting for your turn. It's the worst because she's up there.
- [120:47]
Jocko Willink
It's like, I talked to down there. I talked to a young kid that was. Just got his, you know, like, free fall, and, you know, he was all fired up, like, oh, yeah, I got, you know, four jumps today, my first day free fall. Freaking awesome being up there. Blah, blah, blah. And I go, oh, that's cool. Do you like it? He goes, oh, yeah, it's freaking awesome. I go, oh. I go, were you scared? He goes, I was scared shitless. So, you know, it's like one of those things, right? Scared shit. Let's go. Go. All right, lesson for this chapter again, we kind of mentioned it, but it's the most important thing is it's not about you. It's about the team. A leader owns the responsibility for everything the team does and fails to do. You talk about COVID Move here. Teamwork must work together. No silos. If the team wins, everybody wins. Talk about relationships. And I'm sure you must have an incredible like. Like when you're working with the people, what are they called? A plane captain. Is that right? Yeah, that's the individual that's in charge of your aircraft. Is he in charge of just one aircraft?
- [121:46]
Dave Burke
No, he's got multiple.
- [121:48]
Jocko Willink
That must be your bro.
- [121:49]
Dave Burke
He's your boy. The power line guys, Those are your boys? Those are your boys.
- [121:53]
Jocko Willink
You buy them a case of beer on Fridays, take care of them.
- [121:56]
Dave Burke
I was the power line oic was my first, like, real job with Marines was. I was the officer in charge of the power line team. Those dudes, you. You take care of those guys? Those are the guys. They're awesome.
- [122:09]
Jocko Willink
Real world application once again, starting with a quote. Last year was the best we've ever had, and I'm facing what feels like a mutiny. The chief people officer was beside herself as she walked me through the recent personnel changes her company was facing. And you go into a story about a pharmaceutical company, and this is a good one, they have, like, a conference. And you're, like, talking about the conference. Who Was there? All 12 sales leads, 4 regional managers, and the entire executive team. Teresa explains. You know, you're talking about the conference. What was the focus? We went through all the growth numbers, clients, production, revenue, profit. It was a bit of a celebration for all those successes. Heck, yeah. And you fast forward a little bit. Did you keep the rest of the team aware of everything that happened at the conference or let them in on the great results? We didn't really do that, but they're paid well and that paycheck is an acknowledgment of those results. And you say, let me ask you this. What message do you think it sends when you bring a few people in a supervisory roles to the off site in Las Vegas and leave the rest at home? There you go. Little earnest question. Activity final chapter chapter 10 prepare for your departure. Niceville, Florida VMFAT what do you say? VM FAT VMFAT 501 Commander's Office November 26, 2012 FMFAT 501 Warlords at the time, we were the first and only operational FAT 35B squadron in the world. And you give some details on this $130 million aircraft?
- [123:48]
Dave Burke
Bro.
- [123:53]
Jocko Willink
Bro. $130 million aircraft. That's freaking epic, dude. I was, I was outside the other night and I was sitting there with my family and we had just eaten dinner and I see like something on the horizon and I'm like, that's weird. And it's like going fast and it's like bright and it. I realized pretty quickly once it got a little higher up that it was the. It was one of Elon's rockets going up into space. And I was like, damn, dude. Like the entire coast of California just watched this dude's plane or aircraft just blast off. What does one of those things cost? Echo Charles? Rocket.
- [124:38]
Dave Burke
I don't know.
- [124:40]
Jocko Willink
Apparently quite a bit. This may not be quite a rocket into space, but 130 million dollar aircraft. How many of them you got in your squadron?
- [124:48]
Dave Burke
I signed for the first 14 ever made. 14 jets. It's a lot of money. That was crazy.
- [124:58]
Jocko Willink
In 2012, no other lieutenant colonel in the world was responsible for more assets than I was.
- [125:02]
Dave Burke
Was.
- [125:03]
Jocko Willink
I personally signed custody forms for the first 14 F35s ever delivered. Three of them purchased by the United Kingdom. It tallied nearly 2 billion, an unheard of amount for a commander in my role. Just a little FYI, the USS Michael Mansour was $2.8 billion just for procurement and 7.5 billion when they add in the, the R D. But I guess in the Marine Corps they're not going to have anything that big.
- [125:33]
Dave Burke
Not as an O5. Yeah, yeah.
- [125:36]
Jocko Willink
It's crazy.
- [125:36]
Dave Burke
A typical squadron, you know, an F.18 squadrons, 12 jets, you know, I don't know, 50 million or something like that.
- [125:41]
Jocko Willink
It's.
- [125:42]
Dave Burke
It was just a different calculus at the time.
- [125:46]
Jocko Willink
Well, luckily there was no pressure. The Commandant of the Marine Corps paid me a personal visit to wish me luck. He wanted to emphasize how important it was to fly our new New jets, as much as they could tolerate, to prove their capability. He also reminded me of how tenuous things were, as if I needed the additional pressure. Chip, I know this isn't fair to say, but if you crash a jet, we will lose the F35 program. Why would you guys lose the program if you crashed a jet?
- [126:14]
Dave Burke
That jet. At the time, there's a. I have a photo of it of me and him having that conversation in the ready room of my squadron that some. My sergeant major snagged a picture of it. So I've got that for posterity. The program was so far behind and so over budget and so underperforming at that time. And it was really. The B was the biggest problem of the three variants that in the Marine Corps, you know, the Stovall version that we had gotten to.
- [126:39]
Jocko Willink
Is the Marine Corps version the only one that does take off vertical takeoff? Yes.
- [126:44]
Dave Burke
It's a major modification of the A variant, which is the Air Force horns. A conventional jet.
- [126:49]
Jocko Willink
The Air Force just can't even do a vertical takeoff at all.
- [126:51]
Dave Burke
No, it's just a regular airplane. They have no need for that. So the Mariner is like, we'll have the same jet, but put an engine in it where you can land straight up and down. So the Marine variant was. Was causing a lot of problems. And I say that comfortably.
- [127:05]
Jocko Willink
Like, this is known.
- [127:06]
Dave Burke
This is known. We were on probation, and the Department of defense had gotten to a point.
- [127:10]
Jocko Willink
Does it have an extra engine?
- [127:13]
Dave Burke
It has a major extra component called a lift fan. And it also has.
- [127:17]
Jocko Willink
That's the thing that pops up behind the canopy.
- [127:19]
Dave Burke
Exactly. And also the engine has this thing called the three bearing swivel. So you take an engine and you can, like, rotate it till it points down. This is major change.
- [127:28]
Jocko Willink
I was gonna say this. I did not. I didn't know the Air Force couldn't even do this.
- [127:32]
Dave Burke
Neither. The A and the C can't do that. They're just very conventional airplanes, bro.
- [127:35]
Jocko Willink
This is, like, totally different.
- [127:38]
Dave Burke
Totally.
- [127:38]
Jocko Willink
I mean, what's the price tag increase on the A versus the B?
- [127:43]
Dave Burke
It's probably $30 million different.
- [127:46]
Jocko Willink
This is.
- [127:46]
Dave Burke
It's changed a lot now. It's much, much. Things are much better now. This is at the time that to your question, like, we were at a point where we were kind of losing the battle to justify this, all these changes, and we were years behind because.
- [128:03]
Jocko Willink
Couldn'T you just put a tail hook on it and just use it for aircraft carrier only?
- [128:06]
Dave Burke
Well, you could have just bought the C. The convict. The Carrier version or just gotten rid of the B altogether. And the Marine Corps have just relied on the other services. There's all sorts of potential risks inside.
- [128:18]
Jocko Willink
There, because what do you need? What do you need?
- [128:20]
Dave Burke
Vertical takeoff for smaller deck carriers and austerior airfields. There's a totally justifiable reason for it. We need it. But we had not proven the worth and the value of that jet at a time where there's a lot of scrutiny, appropriate scrutiny, to the point. And also the other thing, The Marine Corps was all in on one airplane. We had the Hornet and the Harrier, which were going away. We had no plan B. The Air Force had five other jets. The Navy had super horn. Like, the Marine Corps was in a very tenuous, precarious spot. There was no alternative to have the, you know, the, the, the inherent flexibility of a stowable platform, the maritime K. All the things that make the Marine Corps unique. This was it. There was no alternative. And so he came down, he's like, hey, man, I know how this sounds and I appreciate it. He was, he was actually, was awesome. But he was telling me the truth, the unvarnished truth. And he was also telling me, like, it's like, you know, it's like, you can't crash your car. You're like, okay, I want you to know that even without you telling me that I'm going to do everything in my power to not crash this car. I didn't need that guidance. But it was his way of saying, like, you need to know the magnitude of what's going on. And at the exact same time, you have to fly this way more than people think. Can it be? You have to prove. And his number two, the deputy comment for aviation, was like, you fly the wings off those planes as best you can. So I'm getting like, fly, fly, fly. Do not lose an airplane.
- [129:53]
Jocko Willink
How many F35s have been lost?
- [129:57]
Dave Burke
I can't tell you exactly the number. It's. It's a, it's a relatively small number, I can say, at least statistically, it is a very safe airplane. Like, the mishap rate of that jet is very, very low, Especially for the first 10 years of a jet. It's probably the safest jet, statistically speaking, for the first 10 years. Probably has one of the lowest mishap rates ever. And the, like, mechanical contribution mishaps is very, very low. But this is 2012. Totally, like, unknown dude, under the microscope. Like, I'm gonna, I, I'm gonna fly the first. Like, okay, by yourself. Good luck. Like, we Were just. We're uncharted territory, man. It was a crazy time.
- [130:36]
Jocko Willink
And you had trained up the squadron at this point. Yep. And you spend some time in simulators. All of it.
- [130:42]
Dave Burke
Yep.
- [130:43]
Jocko Willink
And. But at some point, like you put a guy by himself because there's only, there's. Is there any two seaters?
- [130:48]
Dave Burke
No. And that's another thing Marine Corps had never done. That's another thing the Raptor did the first flight in the Raptor, there's no two seat F22. So I had gone through that whole experience of like, what does it mean to. It's one thing to like, okay, jock, we're gonna go on your first flight. I'll be in the backseat.
- [131:02]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, of course.
- [131:02]
Dave Burke
I've been flying for 30 years.
- [131:04]
Jocko Willink
Like, the difference between that and you're just by yourself is insane.
- [131:09]
Dave Burke
It's insane. And nobody else other than me had ever done that. So every other guy's first flight in the F35 was the first flight in a new jet by themselves. I had done that in the Raptor. So I understood the slightly different approach you take to make someone safe. Usually. Like, it's one thing to get to a criteria where you could fly with an instructor. Then you'd get to what we call the safer solo criteria, like your fourth or fifth flight. Like, okay, you can now do this by yourself. First flight, day one. First time you ever get in that jet, you're taking off by yourself. It's just a. It was a point in time in Marine Corps aviation history that I just happened to be where I was at that time. Just a unique circumstance. And the commandant wanted me to know the gravity of the situation. He was awesome, man. It was good to go, but it was tenuous, Jack.
- [132:00]
Jocko Willink
And meanwhile, of course into all this, your daughter gets sick. And it's like kind of one of those worst case scenarios where things are not good and you don't know why. You know, it's like, it's real easy when you go and your doctor says, oh, this is the problem. And now we have something to address. It's not like that. It's unknown. And fast forward a little bit. Of course, the timing of it all could not have been worse when it came to the two billion dollar project I was supposed to be managing. Pilots needed to be trained. New best practices need to be put in place. The entire new F35 protocol needed to be developed and learned, all while the dogs barked at the gate. And now I was gone. Because you left.
- [132:44]
Dave Burke
I left.
- [132:46]
Jocko Willink
And you didn't even like you just left. You left. What was the situation? She had to go to a different hospital or something like that.
- [132:53]
Dave Burke
Yeah. There's a bunch of detail.
- [132:55]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [132:55]
Dave Burke
But I'm like, living literally sitting at my desk. Whitney calls me, and she's like, something. The effect of, like, I'm worried. And I'm like, me, too. This had been going on over the weekend. We were kind of like. We knew something was up, didn't know what. The other part of the problem is my daughter at the time was 18 months old, so she couldn't talk to us. She couldn't say, I feel this way. She was just acting a way that just was wrong. Whatever it was, Whitney had reached her threshold. Like, hey, I. I'm her calling me. I imagine you're like, my wife never called me at work ever. Like. Like, I don't. She just didn't call me at work. It just wasn't a thing. Not because I had, like. Oh, you don't call it just.
- [133:36]
Jocko Willink
She.
- [133:36]
Dave Burke
I just. So she calls me at, like, one in the afternoon or something, like, okay. And she's like, hey. It's basically like, I can't do this anymore. I'm like, roger. So I went straight home. As soon as I got home, we put her in the car and went right back to the base, because it was. It's Eglin is a small base, and it has, like, a little. Like a little clinic, you know, and you go there for your little checkups and stuff, and, you know, a pediatrician. And we get there. I'll make a very long story short. The doctor who's this unbelievable guy, he's like, this doesn't look right. He kind of saw. He looked at her face, looked at her eyes, did a quick lab, you know, took a blood draw, did the labs, and he's like, hey, you got to get to a real hospital. Like, immediately. I'm like, in my flight suit. Like, I just ran home, came back or something. You know, whatever the logistics were, it's all very blurry. But, like, that night, we're at the Pensacola Hospital, which is about an hour and a half away, is the nearest big hospital. And by the next. The next day's morning, the doctor's like, we can't help you here. And put her on a life flight with Whitney out of Pensacola to a hospital up in Atlanta called Children's Healthcare of Atlanta, the Eggleston Hospital. So if you hear this shout out to them, they're freaking awesome. And I'm, like, watching them fly. When a life flight and I'm like, what? You know, like, I, I actually can't really recall much of what happened in those 36, 48 hours other than I went home and I drove up to Atlanta. It's like a six hour drive. All that's a blur to me from like, she calls and then my memory, like, I certainly remember getting to the hospital, having the doctor like, this is bad. Getting the other hospital like, this is bad and we can't help you. And then the other hospital, like, we show up and, and, and I now spend like three weeks sleeping on the floor of that hospital. I have no recollection. I do not have a recollection of even talking to my exo or sergeant major. I know I did. I'm sure. I'm like, hey, whatever. But it was so, like blurry. I'm like something like, probably like, I'm going to the hospital, I'll call you later type thing. I don't even. I have no recollection what it's. In fact, I probably should ask. I know who the two guys were. I probably should, like, do you remember that? I don't know if they do or not. I'm just gone, dude. Like, my daughter is really sick. We don't know what's going on. I share a lot of like, details in there, but I'm just. Next thing I'm going to land at this hospital and then that's, that's what I remember.
- [135:48]
Jocko Willink
And how long, like, when did the, when did the squadron form up and when did this happen? Do they like commission the squadron? How does that work?
- [135:58]
Dave Burke
Yeah, the administrative part of the squadron, like it became a real squadron, like a commissioning and a ceremony had happened, you know. Well, before I got there, the guy before me stood it up. He went there. This other guy went there to be the F35 CEO to, to fly the jets. I told you, like, the jet was like three years behind schedule. That's part of the reason why the command I was calling me, it was like, all this is supposed to be three. Might be. It was years behind schedule. So the guy I replaced, he should have been the first pilot, the first operator. They should have operationalized. None of it happened. I mean, it was a real squadron. Had a building, had a flag, it had an emblem and stuff.
- [136:34]
Jocko Willink
Didn't have planes.
- [136:35]
Dave Burke
Didn't have planes.
- [136:36]
Jocko Willink
Is that a real squadron?
- [136:37]
Dave Burke
No, it's, it's so. It certainly we. So I was the CEO when we declared it operational ioc, initial operational capability. So the administration of the squadron was fine. But in terms of Like I'd have to like double check the timing of it, but like we're talking a relatively short period of time of getting jets flying. I think I started flying that summer and it's probably, I'm guessing I did up three or four months, something like that Squad was kind of like, so.
- [137:06]
Jocko Willink
You at least had the time to get things up and running.
- [137:08]
Dave Burke
Things were I had gotten qualified, I probably qualified four or five other guys out of the, out of the, you know, we were, we were starting to move.
- [137:15]
Jocko Willink
Got it. Yeah. And then you disappear and I'm gone. And as you say in the book, I simply left and fast forward a bit. Yet the application of decentralized command across 501, 501 paid off. Thankfully, my team thought independently. They focused on the mission. More importantly, they made decisions that were in the best interest of the squadron and prioritized the team's success. In short, they led. Despite all my experience as a fifth generation fighter pilot and instructor, the ultimate measure of my performance now would be how well the squadron performed in my absence. True decentralized command. You disappear and they continue to function. And you go into some of that in the book lesson, good leadership outlasts the leader. One day you will not be around. And in the real world application you say this. The caller ID disturbed me immediately. I knew the phone number well and always enjoyed talking to its owner. She was a client I'd come to love working with as much as any at Echelon Pro. Normally her calls and texts were welcomed and appreciated, but it was Sunday afternoon and we had no event scheduled on the calendar with her, her teams. For over a month. I was sitting in a lounge chair in my backyard as Whitney and I enjoyed a lazy day at the pool, watching our kids and a few of their friends enjoy the Southern California weather. We had come to love. Already anticipating something bad, I got up and walked around the corner to take the call. Hey Janet, I said, feigning excitement. Janet was the chief administrative officer and had worked directly for Jack for over a decade. The quiet on the other end confirmed what I already suspected. The voice on the line feebly said hello, then delivered news that was even worse than I expected. Jack passed away yesterday. Oh my God. I'm sorry. What happened? I don't know what to say. I stammered. What happened? He was at dinner with his family. Janet couldn't get through the story and stop mid sentence. We shared a long, painful silence. I I knew to wait however long Janet needed to regain her composure. It felt like forever. He said he had a backache and asked to leave early. He collapsed by the entrance and died in a restaurant. She said it was the worst of situations. Restaurant workers had called 91 1, but it was too late. He had a massive aneurysm and there was nothing anyone could do. Janet, I'm heartbroken for everyone. I can't imagine. Janet continued. Jack loved you so much. Your team has made such an impact on all of us. His entire life changed for the better in the last few years since reading the book and connecting with you all. But we don't know what to do right now. I don't know what to do. You're the first person I called after meeting with the executive team this morning. Most of the firm doesn't even know. Everyone is in shock. Terrible, terrible situation. And. Well, fast forward a little bit. A few days later, I landed in Seattle and made my way to their office, anticipating chaos. What I witnessed completely amazed me. I saw a group of people doing exactly what they needed to be doing, despite how raw the emotions were. The team had rallied around each other, detaching from those emotions as best they could to keep things working. An interim CEO had been put in place to handle day to day operations. A task tracker was put up on a whiteboard in the lunchroom for everyone to see and add to. All major clients had been called. The downstream teams had been informed of what happened and priorities were defined for them. Anything critical to the firm's long, long term stability was assigned to an owner, while less important tasks were identified and put on hold. I witnessed decentralized command in action. And everywhere I looked, I saw the right people doing the right things and making decisions that helped the team. Yeah, I mean, I remember when all that stuff happened. It was, it was terrible. And, and you know, I haven't made this, what's this caveat yet, but we, when we write about the companies that we work with, we change the names of the people involved, we change the industry. You know, we, we, we tweak the incident enough that people won't be identified. But you know, this was a terrible situation where a company we had a great relationship with and still have a great relationship with, they had a terrible thing happened to their founder and leader. But then you got to witness this. What we teach, what they learned, put in action.
- [141:56]
Dave Burke
Yeah, this one, this one's awful. That story is, is so heartbreaking. And yeah, we, we make very, I made little adjustments to each to not identify who the client is. And then that's a little bit for their protection. This one very Obviously, is. Is. Even with the little adjustments, it's very close to the mark. And, in fact, I wrote this book. I put a little caveat in the front. I said something to the effect of, hey, these are stories based on my imperfect memory. I think they're pretty close. I was definitely telling stories that were about me, so it wasn't like, somebody else's point of view. It didn't put anybody else at risk. This is what I think happened, and it's pretty close. There's two stories that I wasn't totally confident I had right, because they involved another person. First was that chapter dog fighting Trim. I sent trim the chapter. I'm like, hey, dude, I got to make sure I get this right. And he was like, you nailed it. He made a couple of changes. It was Bravo 17. And. But it was important to get it right, because I knew he was involved, and I wanted him to read it and go, that's what happened. And so I sent it to him, and he read it, and he's like, dude, you cut. You captured it. This one, I knew when the real girl who read this, I was. It was really important that I got this right. And I had this sense of, like, not anxiety, whatever the word is. Like, I was anxious to get to have her read this, and I sent, you know, center this copy of the advanced copy of it and had her read it. And I was just kind of waiting. And thankfully, she got the book, and she's like, I was gonna go straight to the last chapter, but I read the whole thing. She kind of read it in one, like, in one night. And then. And anyway, she called me, and she was kind of in tears. She's like, it's perfect. And she said, like, thank you. Not as a compliment to my writing, but that I had captured what she experienced as kind of his closest friend being so close to that. And that the way that we captured the lesson, the way we wrote about this in this book was truly a reflection of what happened to them, because this story of that guy who died in this totally unexpected prime of his life in front of his family is the worst story. And yet the lesson that we got to take away from this. And I really have to give Jamie Cochran credit because she included this story in her muster brief called the barriers for extreme ownership. And she tells these stories of impact at the very end, and this is the last one she tells. And she coined that phrase when we were just thinking about what this meant, me going there, seeing this team like, holy cow. In the worst scenario, this guy's leadership had influenced the company so much that they were. They were okay without him. As she coined that phrase, good leadership outlasts the leader. And there is no better compliment to him and his leadership in that. In his totally unexpected absence, his team was okay. It was hurt. They hurt. It was awful. But they're okay. And this company, this is years ago. This company is thriving. Their. His memory is alive and well. We are still close to them. They are still important people to us. But it is the ultimate reflection of. You better be thinking about this now, because you don't get to pick when your team is on their own. You don't pick that date and time. And part of the chapter in my story was I had that thought, like, okay, I got my young guys at this point, I'll start to get them ready for this. And underestimated the need for decentralized command because I had that thought of like, oh, I'll be here for two years. I'll know when the time is right. And my daughter threw that timeline out the window. And it reminded me of. It isn't just decentralized command. It's the recognition that your team, your family, whatever it is, success is what they do when you're not there, when you're not around. And you don't get to decide that. And his is the ultimate version of that story. Like it was. It is out of left. This is a hell. I mean, Extreme Ownership changed his life. He loved you. That book, everything from fitness, everything, his entire life changed. Everything attributed to his experience with Extreme Ownership. And I think like, maybe two weeks before this happened, he came to an ftx. Yeah. And I had this thought, like, what am. I had to get on a plane to get out there. And I was worried. I was worried that it was going to be chaos and I didn't end up. It was remarkable. And it was the ultimate compliment to him is that his leadership outlasted him. And it's a huge lesson for all of us.
- [146:28]
Jocko Willink
I'm going to close out the book with this little section right here. There is nothing more important than the skill of leadership. It is what allows people to thrive in a world filled with chaos and trauma that we can't always anticipate. Anticipate the best leadership outlasts the leader. Prepare your team to outlast you. Give them authority to perform their tasks, make decisions, and stand on their own when the occasion calls for it. It's the only way you can ensure they'll win. No matter what happens. Be humble and Forget about perfection. Don't get complacent or be afraid to change. Listen to the team and put them ahead of yourself. Empower your team and lead yourself. Empower your team and yourself to lead through the worst case scenarios by taking preemptive ownership. Every problem is a leadership problem. From top gun to war and from business to life. The solution is you're in your own hands. To find it, you need to lead. So there you go. Another thing that you've got in this book is you've got this application guide, kind of like an Echelon front type application guide, where you go through kind of how to work through the chapters, you know. Chapter one. You ask questions that people should be asking, you know. Chapter one. Every problem is a leadership problem. What are the top challenges you are currently facing in your position? At its core, every problem we face is leadership problem. How can you view these problems through the lens of leadership? This is always a classic one. Because people, people say, well, it's, you know, the market or it's the union or whatever you want to say it is. It's the product, it's the thing, the supply chain. It's a leadership problem is what it is. It's a freaking leadership problem. Chapter 2. Humility is the most important attribute in a leader. What are some of the common phrases your ego says to protect you? And again, this is like a little application, little things that you can do, little drills that you can do that will help you. You have in some of these things or in all of them actually, you have immediate action drills. This one is who is one person you need to build a relationship with but have let your ego get in the way. What will you do to put your ego in check and build that relationship? Beginning just earnest questions that if you're honest with yourself, they're going to help you. Chapter three. Complacency is a killer. In what areas of your life have you become complacent? Chapter four. And then I'm just hitting some like highlights. Chapter four. Detachment is a superpower. What routine can you create to better train your mind to detach when necessary? Here's the immediate action drill. What was the last argument you had about how can you detach from your point of view to see the other person's perspective? Very smart. Chapter 5. Perfection is a lie. Immediate action drill. Take a low impact risk. The next opportunity you get, what was the outcome and how did it ultimately impact execution? Chapter six, Take ownership. One of your questions here, when you know there's potential for things to Go wrong. How can you take preemptive ownership? That's good. Chapter seven, Listen. How do you show people you're listening to them? It's a good one. Chapter eight, Change. Immediate action. Joel, what is one thing in your life you need, you know, needs to change? What is one action you can take to move it? So there's just a good, you know, thing, a good thing to follow, a good thing to guide you. The last one is immediate action. Joel, on your next project or assignment, who is one person on your team you can ask, asked to take lead. What a brilliant little idea. How will this help the person and the team's growth and development? So there you go.
- [150:22]
Dave Burke
We got. We got a ton of good feedback on that application section that we actually pulled it out and created this companion guide that's, like, bigger and more. And, like, more. Even more organized than that, because people are asking, like, how can I use this? Like, oh, cool. We have to make this its own thing. So just like the extreme ownership and dichotomy companion guides, there'll be one for this to the exact same thing. This is how you use this stuff.
- [150:44]
Jocko Willink
Boom.
- [150:45]
Dave Burke
So it's out there if you want it.
- [150:47]
Jocko Willink
Well, we can all use some immediate action drills to get better. And if you do, if you do this stuff, every aspect of your life is getting better. And it's so cool because there's just so many examples of this now. You know, people that have turned their life around, you know, turned their business around, turn their marriage around in a positive way, turn their family went round, get their kids back in the game, like, all these things. Take ownership, listen, change, put the team, like, all these things. So important. Leadership is just the cornerstone of life, really. Mental, physical, vocational. I like that word, vocational, you know, because leadership is a cornerstone of your vocation. What you do for work, your family, obviously, relationships, it's all leadership. So you need to learn the skills of leadership. You need to understand leadership. And we can thank Dave Burke for making all of that, the understanding and the learning of leadership a little bit easier thanks to this book, the need to Lead. The verdict on the title. How do you feel now?
- [151:59]
Dave Burke
I feel good about the title.
- [152:00]
Jocko Willink
Echo Charles. Top Gun fan?
- [152:02]
Dave Burke
Yeah, big time.
- [152:03]
Jocko Willink
100%.
- [152:04]
Dave Burke
100%. Especially how you brought it together at the end there.
- [152:06]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, I see you like that. Little closer there.
- [152:10]
Dave Burke
100%. Yeah.
- [152:12]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, I. You know, I wasn't. I honestly, I. I didn't even. I. I'm not that much of a fan of Top Gun, the original movie.
- [152:20]
Dave Burke
Sacrilege.
- [152:21]
Jocko Willink
Not not, like, against it or anything. I probably saw one time, but I never actually. I didn't watch it until the other night when my wife's friend Maggie was in town. And, like, she was. She loves Top Gun. And so there I was watching Top Gun. And. But I didn't. I didn't, you know, the need to leave. The first time you said it to me, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't connect it to the movie at all. Yeah, it. I just thought, oh, you know, cool. Like, that's cool. And then it became a little bit less cool when you told me about the. The movie and you like, it's from Top Gun. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, okay. But then once I saw the movie again and read the book, freaking nailed it. All day. All day. So if you're listening to this right now, order the book, get the first A dish comes out October 21st. Great addition to your leadership knowledge. That's what it is. Dave Burke wrote his first book. Freaking outstanding.
- [153:19]
Dave Burke
Thanks, man.
- [153:19]
Jocko Willink
Got a freaking winner right here. A winner, Dave. Anything else?
- [153:26]
Dave Burke
I don't have much else to say other than I. I mean, it's kind of surreal to hear you read the book that I wrote, but all of this comes from what we get to do at Echelon Front and the lessons that started. If extreme ownership doesn't get written, none of this happens. The way that we communicate, the way that we talk, like, none of this happens. And so to get to be part of that and add something to that is. It's, like, the coolest thing, man. It is an honor to have. Have something to contribute to the. The lessons that are out there. So I'm grateful, man.
- [153:56]
Jocko Willink
I appreciate it. Yeah, well, you know me. I'm over here being grateful that you wrote a book. And let's get the word out there, man. All day, freaking pumped. And it is also, you know, if you're a person out there that's like, got some ideas in your head and you want to write, you know, go for it, number one. And number two, it's hard. And it took Dave some grinding work to get this to where it is. And, man, you did a great job. And I could see even echo Charles, when I was reading about landing on the aircraft carrier. You're getting fired up over there. You know, we can go to the video if you don't believe me. You were shifting in your chairs. You were, like, rubbing your hands together. That's sketchy, dude. 0. 0.
- [154:35]
Dave Burke
I felt it for sure.
- [154:36]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the whole book's like that. The whole book's like we got zero. Zero scenarios going left and right. All hands. So 99. All hands. The need to Lead by Dave Burke. The. What are we calling it? The next book in the extreme ownership series. Yeah. Is that what we're. Is that what this thing is that works? I think it fits well. So also you're gonna exercise your brain and your leadership skills of the book. Gonna have to exercise your body as well, you know, lifting, training, Jiu Jitsu. How's that Jiu jitsu going for you? Echo Charles. How's that last. How's that last sesh?
- [155:20]
Dave Burke
You know, I'm glad I was there. You know, it's good to. Good to, you know, do it.
- [155:24]
Jocko Willink
Feel good. About that one, bro, that was like, it was a net positive. There was like pent up scenarios also there. Yeah, a little bit. Do you, do you drive home, like not liking me? Well.
- [155:42]
Dave Burke
I'll say. I have mixed emotions the whole time. How about that, you know, hey, I'm.
- [155:46]
Jocko Willink
Happy to be here like everybody else.
- [155:47]
Dave Burke
You see what I'm saying?
- [155:48]
Jocko Willink
In the zone. We in the zone. So when you're training, you need some fuel. You need some. You need some fuel, you need protein, need some energy, need some joint supplementation. You need creatine. We got all those things for you. Jockofuel.com. check it out. Jockofuel.com. what do you. What do you got, a orange hydrate over there? We didn't have any orange. That's your flavor. That's your, your fanta flavor. This is your orange go. Anyways, you guys know what you need. Jocafood.com. check it out. You can get it at Walmart. You can Wawa Vitamin shop, gnc, Military commissaries, apes, Hannaford dash doors, Wakefern, Shoprite, Heb Meyer, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Publix. Just, just all over the place. Hy vee. You can get it. Lifetime fitness shields and a bunch of small gyms. So that's what we got. We got jocko fuel for you. Check it out. Get yourself some also origin USA. Origin USA. We got jeans, American made, 100% new kind of jeans. Maverick jeans, like pure cotton.
- [157:03]
Dave Burke
Maverick.
- [157:04]
Jocko Willink
I think they're called. Maverick.
- [157:05]
Dave Burke
Hell yeah.
- [157:05]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, we think of that. Good deal, Dave.
- [157:08]
Dave Burke
Yeah, okay.
- [157:09]
Jocko Willink
How'd you get the nickname Chip? Cuz that was your actual call sign. Where'd it come from?
- [157:13]
Dave Burke
I knocked my teeth out in flight school.
- [157:15]
Jocko Willink
How'd you do it?
- [157:15]
Dave Burke
I hit myself in the face with my own g Suit.
- [157:18]
Jocko Willink
How'd you do that?
- [157:19]
Dave Burke
My helmet, during a conversation, was sitting on a desk, and I knocked the helmet off the desk as I kind of moved my hand to, like, show something. And as the helmet fell, I reached for it. I kind of leaned down and reached. And the G suit. It was. I was wearing my G suit. There's a. A hose with, like, a buckle on the end of it that plugs into the jet. It's like a metal. Almost looks like a hose buckle. And as I reached for the helmet, I hit the hose. The hose came up, hit me in the face. Have you ever seen the movie Dumb and Dumber? Yes. I did that to both of my front teeth. Knocked a triangle out of both of them. And as you know, if it's not emergent, Navy medicine is like, we'll get to you when we can, because you're not gonna die. So I had to walk around the squadron for, like, a week with these two holes in my face. Dumb and Dumber. It could have been. It could have been way worse than Chip. And some of the options were way worse, but thank God, like, they're like, we'll call him Chip and moved on. But it happened in flight school, and it's.
- [158:11]
Jocko Willink
Do you remember any other options? Dude. Can't say I'm invol.
- [158:15]
Dave Burke
Like, all sorts of craziness.
- [158:16]
Jocko Willink
But, yes, you know, well, Maverick was Maverick's. Was that Maverick's dad's call sign as well in the movie Top Gun, or was his call sign something else?
- [158:26]
Dave Burke
I don't recall that being the case.
- [158:28]
Jocko Willink
Okay.
- [158:28]
Dave Burke
But that's a cool call sign that.
- [158:30]
Jocko Willink
You would never see in a real Navy.
- [158:32]
Dave Burke
Yeah, it's not a thing.
- [158:33]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Yeah.
- [158:34]
Dave Burke
Wait, why not? Because it's too late. Because it's cool. Yeah. Like, oh, he's. He's a maverick. He's awesome. Like, your call sign is going to be the. Hopefully, you know, not too painful, but it's going to be the dumbest thing you've done, and they're going to make you remember it. So there are no. To my knowledge, like, there's no cool call signs in the Navy. The Marine Corps, they're all just like, either like, kind of like, not a big deal or like, you did something really dumb.
- [158:59]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. Or your name.
- [159:01]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [159:01]
Jocko Willink
Your name kind of requires it.
- [159:03]
Dave Burke
So. Iceman Viper. No chance. Okay. No chance. If you have a cool call sign, it's probably an acronym, and you don't realize it's like, it stands for something really unflattering, like, you know, like, you know, Ike, like, oh, hey, it's my buddy Ike. Ike actually stands for I know everything, which is them. They were saying, like, you talk too much and you think you're really smart. So even if it sounds cool, it's probably has a meaningful. That is really uncool. And they just feel.
- [159:34]
Jocko Willink
Well, we got Maverick jeans, which does sound cool. Does sound cool.
- [159:38]
Dave Burke
Is cool. The whole deal.
- [159:38]
Jocko Willink
And they're 100 cotton.
- [159:40]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [159:40]
Jocko Willink
So there's no, like, there's no stretch. They're old school.
- [159:42]
Dave Burke
Yeah.
- [159:43]
Jocko Willink
You have a pair of jeans growing up in Hawaii.
- [159:45]
Dave Burke
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [159:46]
Jocko Willink
They probably. They didn't have no stretch back then. So we're bringing that back. Originusa.com 100 Made in America what freedom has made these jeans. American hands have made these hoodies, these t shirts, these boots. 100American made. Origin USA.com check it out. Also, obviously, we got some books. I've written a bunch of books about leadership. And now Dave Burke has written a book about leadership. The book is called need to lead. Order it. Echelon Front. We have a leadership consulting company. This is what we were talking about today. We talk about leadership all the time. This is what we do. We've seen it in every type of environment. Not only we see it, yes, in our military careers, but now that we have been working with civilian companies for over a decade. We have experience in every industry. So if you have issues inside of your organization, those issues are leadership issues. And we will help you with those leadership issues through leadership. The skills of leadership, the alignment of leadership. That's what we do. Go to Echelon Front. We also have an online training academy where you can learn the skills of leadership online. Go to extreme ownership.com for that. If you want to help out service members, active and retired, want to help with their families, they're gold star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mightywarriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org and don't forget about Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood.org now listen up. We talked a little bit about RADI today and we are all going to a reunion. Go to rad reunion20.com if you were connected to the 11 ad in 2006, you're invited. If you're a gold star family, you're invited. Army, Navy, Air force and Marines, we were all there. We're all in that battle. So if you were there with the 1:1 ad, go to ramadireunion20.com and sign up for the reunion. It's going to be January 16th and 17th down in Texas 2026. Our 20 year reunion. It's been 20 years. We'll see you there. If you want to connect for Dave, his Twitter X and his Instagram is at David R. Burke B E R K E. And for us, you can check out jocko.com or on social media I'm at Jocko Willink Echoes at Echo. Charles, be careful. The algorithm. Also thanks to all of our military members around the world right now for holding the line and protecting freedom and our way of life. Thank you for your service. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, Secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for holding the line and protecting us here at home and for everyone else out there. Once again, from Dave Burke. Good deal, Dave Burke. Chip Dave Burke from his book, the need to Lead. Here we go. This is a quote. It is in our human nature to find reasons we are not responsible for whatever is going wrong in our lives. Without ownership, when projects fall behind schedule, it can easily be blamed on external forces and factors beyond our control. Excuses are a satisfying, albeit temporary, fix to soothe our ego and exonerate us from blame for the problems we face. We might feel as though they absolve us of responsibility, but they actually rob us of the ability to address and fix what is wrong in our lives. Taking extreme ownership annihilates those excuses, which is a beautiful thing because it destroys the single largest impediment to fixing what is wrong. It gives us the power we need to truly change what undermines our success so problems get solved. And that's what we got. Keep your ego in check, everyone, and keep trying to get better. And that's all we've got for tonight and until next time. This is Dave and Echo and Jocko out.