C (3:35)

I did. I actually wrote it. I didn't have a ghostwriter like everybody else.

A (3:39)

Well, not everybody else has ghostwriters. I haven't had a ghost writer.

C (3:42)

I know you didn't. That's why I brought it up.

A (3:44)

It's tempting. And I'll tell you when we first, When I talked to my. When Leif and I started going around talking to publishers, some of the feedback we got was, well, you guys should just get a ghostwriter. And you know, when I go back and look at the first drafts of that first book, I kind of realize why. But you know, our writing wasn't just wasn't good yet. And it takes a little time, but yeah. So that's cool that you wrote your book. Great title, by the way, Where Cowards Go to Die. And I'm sure we'll get into where that came from. But the book, the book is. I mean, it's a great book. We're going to talk about your relation to EB Sledge, which is a distant great cousin or something like that. But very cool to read the book. And it goes through. You know, you wrote it in a style and you. And we talked before we hit record, you were talking about you Pulp Fiction debt, which is a good way of saying it. So it jumps around, but it makes it a very interesting read. And you're, you're, you know, much like Pulp Fiction. You're figuring out things as it goes along and it paints a really cool picture, but it does give you it does give us, the reader, a little bit of background about how you grow up. And I want to get into some of that right now, and then you can add some context around it. But let's go to the book Where Cowards Go to Die. It says, my father was a first in many ways. Long before people considered nursing an acceptable field for men to enter, he stepped into the position and was often ostracized, much like Ben Stiller's character in the movie Meet the Parents. That is classic. And this is what, in the 80s? So this is really ostracized.

C (5:15)

Oh, it was weird. Like, I just thought he was a doctor. You know, I was like, oh, he comes home and scrubs and everything else. And then when I found out he was a nurse, and I would tell people that, they were like, oh, that stinks.

A (5:30)

And as you said, I never thought much about it, but kids would tease me because my dad was a nurse. When you're a child and your dad comes home and scrubs an overcoat, you assume he's a doctor. So when other kids poked fun at his position, sometimes it led me to scuffles on the paper playground. However, when your dad is a nurse in the AIDS wing, during the early days of an epidemic that people believe is airborne, you might as well be a pariah. Once people at our church found out my dad was treating homosexual men and women, they looked at him with disgust. They wouldn't sit next to us for fear of contracting the disease or getting the sin on them.

C (6:06)

Yeah, it was weird. Yeah.

A (6:09)

And where is this weird growing up? Oklahoma.

C (6:10)

Oklahoma? Yeah. Tulsa, Oklahoma. It's like the buckle of the Bible belt. And I just. My parents met at, like, a Bible college and everything. So we had. We had grown up in church. And I remember my mom specifically, one day we were in the car, and she was like, you cannot tell anyone the wing that your dad works in, like, at all. Because everybody believed, oh, you know, it was airborne initially, or you could get it by kissing somebody. And so. And we knew the difference. You know, we knew the science.

A (6:42)

What year were you born?

C (6:44)

81.

A (6:45)

Yeah. So this is, like, prime everyone's AIDS horror.

C (6:48)

Yeah. Yeah. And it. And it's not just, like, the gay and lesbian community. It's like drug addicts, too. So there's. There's a lot of stigma that goes along with it. But my dad had always just had this compassionate heart, and he wanted to take care of the marginalized. And so he had a friend named Dan who was one of the first people. And this is how wild the story is. One of the first people who started interacting with men and women who had aids. And, like, nobody knew what to do. So he was running, literally a kind of a. It was a trailer on a tract of land treating these men and women because they just didn't know what to do. And my dad was so inspired by his friend Dan that he was like, okay, I'll start up the first, like, AIDS AIDS wing in, In. In the hospital. And so eventually my mom was, you know, kind of standoffish, and then my dad brought her in and she eventually became friends with, like, a lot of the patients who were dying at the time and, like, even would hold their hands. And I found her one day crying in our. Our kitchen because one of her friends had died. So it was just growing up in that manner, it was. It was different to kind of see that. And it always led me towards being a little bit more compassionate towards, you know, towards people. But also at the same time, it was difficult growing up because, man, like, dude, people just wouldn't. If they found out, they wouldn't sit next to us, they wouldn't talk to us. You know, I write about this in the book that at one point my parents. Friends were having a vote on whether they could stay friends with them.

A (8:27)

Dang. So, yeah, breaking it down to a democratic situation.

C (8:30)

Yeah.

A (8:31)

You know, you, you mentioned that you, at one point, you know, you're a kid and you tell your dad, like, hey, dad, can't you just not help these people? Like, I want to be. I don't want to be ostracized. And your dad says, benjamin, he said, laying a hand on my shoulder, if no one helps these people, who will?

C (8:44)

Right.

A (8:45)

That left a pretty big impact on you. Now, meanwhile, you're grown up. You know, church is a part of it, but this is the, this is like in the 80s, you have, let's see, pastors of the 1980s and 90s promoted wealth, blessings, politics, and the shunning of those outside the church. And, you know, you talk a lot about how you saw that. You saw sort of, hey, this is this. These. These church people may not be living in a very Christlike way.

C (9:16)

Yeah.

A (9:18)

Another little, little influence you had in your world is Karate Kid Part two.

C (9:22)

Oh, man. Saw it in the theaters.

A (9:24)

And you started. You started taking, you say, a Christian karate class.

C (9:29)

Yeah.

A (9:29)

What differentiates that from a regular karate class?

C (9:32)

So it, it was weird. My parent, everything. Oh, my God. Okay, so let's back up here for a second.

A (9:38)

We're going to start Throwing out. Because we also have this thing that you started playing saxophone because you thought Kenny. You thought Kenny G was going to get him chicks.

C (9:45)

I did. I. I literally legit. And, dude, the sax is back now, man. They're bringing it, like, synthwave. And, I mean, they're putting it in, like, metal stuff now, too, like, Sleep Token. I'm like, oh, man, I should have stayed with the saxophone. But no, I. So you got to remember, and I'm sure you remember that, and people who are a little bit older, like Gen X and elder millennials, will remember this, like, satanic panic was, like, big during that time period. I can't remember. I read about it in the book, but it's like 60 Minutes or Dateline or somebody. They started linking, like, metal music to, like, the occult. And I was a metal head. And then, like, I loved, like, all the things that were goth and. And, you know, like, the Big Four, you know, Megadeth, Metallica, Pantera. Or not Pantera, Slayer and an Anthrax. And I've seen all of them. But it was just when you were kind of, like, outside that, like, church environment, you were doing those things. You had tattoos or whatever it was. It was like this very standoffish, like, kind of time period in. In the world. And so, you know, I grew up thinking, like, if you played a record backwards like, that, you know, you'd hear some hidden message backmasking. Yeah.

A (10:59)

Oh, yeah. I played a lot of my records backwards.

C (11:01)

I didn't do.

A (11:02)

I was just like, where is it at?

C (11:03)

Are they saying to worship Satan now? Like, but they would pick, you know, weird stuff, like Journey, like, you know, Steve Perry, Send Her My Love, or.

A (11:12)

You know, Don't Stop, really, like a Satanic.

C (11:15)

I know, like, and the belief was, like, you were gonna do meth and, like, stab your parents and become this degenerate. And, like. Like, Tipper Gore, Al Gore's wife, like, started a task force against this stuff. So. And that's where we got, you know, the parental advisory stuff. So, like, a lot of my upbringing was masked by kind of this, like, I had the things that I loved, but they were not acceptable because of the church environment. And yet, at the same time, the church environment that I was growing up in was very much about there's this thing called, like, prosperity gospel and word of faith. It's, like, kind of name it and claim it. And, like, if you really have enough faith and you're gonna be super loaded and rich and God's gonna drop a Maserati on your Porch. And like, a lot of people still kind of believe that where they get this, like, genie God character. And so for me, it was. It was very difficult to kind of reconcile the two. And I was like, I think this might be bunk at one point. So.

A (12:13)

Yeah, yeah, you name the chapters in the book. Are they all songs, all metal songs? Yeah, they're all. So I recognized, I think, 85% of them. Chapter four is called Freak on a Leash. You know, that's a great corn song. And you talk about church camps. Church camps were all the rage growing up. I'm not sure how many I'd been to, but in the mid-1990s, I doubled up. Not wanting to be left out of summer fun, I joined a friend and some acquaintances at a Methodist church camp. Despite attending a non denominational church myself. We were, we young teens, however, were more interested in girls than experiencing God. So is that. Is that kind of like the thing? Like you're going to this camp and you're just thinking, well, it's gonna be a good place to meet girls.

C (12:58)

Yeah.

A (12:58)

Do a little Bible activity and then hang out with girls?

C (13:03)

Yeah, yeah, like, that was the thing. I knew that all the girls from my, like, high school and other places, they were going to these camps. And the crazy part too is, like, we weren't really interested in what they were talking about. Most of the kids were sneaking out into the woods to hook up or smoke weed.

A (13:19)

So it was like a social gathering in a way.

C (13:22)

It really was. I mean, you have to remember in Oklahoma and Texas and other places kind of in that area during that time period, in order for you to even be considered a good businessman, you had to be a church parishioner. And so it was something that your kids did. It was kind of like this status. And so everybody would go to these things. I'll tell you this. I remember I went to school one time. Do you remember the WWJD bracelets?

A (13:50)

Yeah.

C (13:51)

You guys remember those? Yep. Okay, I'm sure.

A (13:53)

What would Jesus do?

C (13:54)

Yeah, I saw like, everybody in my high school wearing them. And this one kid, he was like, super popular. I was like, oh, I didn't know you were Christian. He's like, oh, I'm not. I just saw everybody wearing these.

A (14:05)

Just straight up, huh? Yeah.

C (14:07)

He's like, oh, it's a fashion statement. And like, that's what it really was like during that time period. And so, yeah, it was because of my own, I would say, core wounds, where I was like, you know, that the guy with long. I literally had Hair down here, and I parted it in the middle. And my brother called it a butt cut because it looked like a butt crack doing in the middle of my head. Cause I wanted to look like, you know, the band, so. And I'm wearing those flared JNCO jeans, like, as the style was and, like, the band T shirts.

A (14:37)

What was your gateway musical band that got you into, you know, was it. Did it open with Metallica? Yeah, it was Metallica because the Black Album came out. That was a super popular album. Yeah, people like me that were into Metallica since we were, like, since 1983. And when that album came out, we were like sellouts. Like sellouts. What are you doing making songs that are less than seven minutes long? But it did exactly what. What musical. The musical world thought it would do is it brought Metallica completely mainstream. Completely mainstream. And then what happens is people start listening to older albums, and then the next thing they figure out that there's other bands out there.

C (15:17)

Right.

A (15:17)

Like Slayer.

C (15:18)

Yeah. And like, for me, I would honestly say the gateway was probably grunge, like Nirvana and Soundgarden and that, you know, all those bands were influential. I remember when Kurt Cobain died, and my first concert ever was Foo Fighters. And it was shortly after he died. Dave Grohl had started it. So I knew, like, all the history and everything. And then that just led, you know, when the Black Album came out, I was like, this is awesome. And then I went back, like you. Like you said, and I listen, I was like, oh, these albums are better than the Black Album. I was like, ride the Lightning is sick. So.

A (15:53)

And corn, of course, which I was. I was an early adopter of corn. I saw corn before the album came out in New York City in a place like that was probably a little bit bigger than this room that we're in right now. And I was like, oh, who the hell are these guys? This is epic. Bozak. John Bozak brought me to that show. All right, so this is just. You're at one of these church groups. My problems began one evening during one of the mandatory church services. In the middle of the speaker's message, he asked how many of us liked Metallica's new album. Excited that someone understood me, I raised my hand. Then he exclaimed in a booming voice, it's satanic.

C (16:32)

Oh, there you go.

A (16:33)

And then they had a straight up cd burning like fire.

C (16:37)

Oh, these were huge. Like, that's just one instance. It used to be like, every church camp, like, talk to some kids that grew up during this area. We all have These memories, you know, and there's. I write about this, like, there's always some dumb kid who's, like, trying to impress a girl. And everybody's like, kind of feeling, you know, the weight of the message. Cause they're, to some degree, they're emotionally manipulating. You know, being in the civil affairs and psyop community, you start to realize real quick what that looks like, especially years after the fact. So there's.

A (17:09)

Especially when you're 15.

C (17:10)

Yeah. When you're. You don't know it then, but as you grow older, you're like, oh, there was a level of emotional manipulation there. And so everybody's, you know, tossing their CDs in or cassettes and stuff. And I had bought three cassettes of the Black Album. And that's how much I wore it out in my tape player in my 1987 Honda Civic with a stick shift skull shifter. But, yeah, some kid would always, like, want to impress the girl who was there. And I remember this one kid, he was just like, oh, listen to that. You can hear, like, the demons hissing. And it was just. It was plastic. It was just the fire. And I'm like, at least I paid attention in science class. And no, this stuff works.

A (17:58)

But something. Am I getting this right? In the book, you talk about how you. You come home from one of these camps when. Summer. And you, like, you wanted to kind of basically be normal, cut your hair.

C (18:07)

Yeah.

A (18:08)

And you kind of got a little less metaled out. Is that what happened?

C (18:13)

Yeah. Well, I don't know if I put this in the book. The Hanson's came out.

A (18:19)

The Hansons?

C (18:20)

Yeah, the.

A (18:23)

Oh, Lord.

C (18:24)

Okay. And they're from Oklahoma. So I had the long hair and I looked like the oldest one, which everyone thought was the ugly one that's gonna sting. And so I would get stopped and they'd be like, oh, my God, are you Isaac Hansen? And I'd be like, no. And I was just. And so a combination of that and then the fact that I even got kicked out of, like, I was in with, like, the skaters, the goths, you know, the metal kids. I didn't really hang out with, like, the goth crowd too much. But, you know, I got kicked out because I wasn't cool enough for them. And I was like, I thought you guys were the group that was supposed to accept everybody. And so I. I just realized, like, who I am is not acceptable to the world around me, so I have to change who I am. And so I literally went to my mom and I was like, I want to Cut my hair and we need to go shopping. Like, this was, like, an overnight change. I cut my hair from shoulder length. We have photos of this. And I asked her, I said, hey, can I get frosted tips, too? Because that was in style, because I wanted to look like Mark McGrath from Sugar Ray, because Mark McGrath got chicks. You could see all the core wounds, like, festering because of just rejection and everything else. And, like, I bring that up because I. You know, working in mental health, you kind of realize, like, what are the driving forces behind, like, why you do what you do? What's the trauma? And so for me, it was a lot of unresolved issues from my childhood that brought, you know, when I finally got into healing, that I. I realized I had to. To overcome. And so.

A (19:57)

So these frosted tips are deeply rooted in your soul?

C (19:59)

Deeply rooted in my soul now. So. And I started shopping at Abercrombie and Fitch.

A (20:05)

Oh, dang.

C (20:05)

Like, yeah, it was. It was a really weird. Weird kind of trans.

A (20:09)

As opposed to Hot Topic.

C (20:10)

Yes, Hot Topic. And what was the other one? Sun Pack. Was it Sun?

A (20:14)

Yeah, probably something.

C (20:15)

Yeah.

A (20:16)

Jack.

C (20:16)

Yeah.

A (20:17)

And how did. How did the world accept you now that you had frosted tips and Abercrombie and French or whatever it's called?

C (20:26)

I. I got invited to a couple things. I remember, like, I got invited to this birthday party, and it was like, the. And I was like, why do they invite me? That's weird. It was, like, the popular kids, and I went and I hung out and realized, like, this isn't really what I want. And I ended up discovering some friends who were, like, into the same things as me. They were kind of fringe, but they looked cool enough. And so we would just go to concerts all the time together. And, like, I. I swear, I don't think I lived at my house on the weekends at all, and even sometimes during the week, because I was just always crashing at my friend's house, or they were. We were crashing at each other's and going to concerts and, you know, having bonfires out in the woods and, you know, souping out our trucks and driving really fast, doing all the dumb stuff that teenagers do. Yeah, we were. We were total teenage boys, just fueled by, like, testosterone and anger, so.

A (21:20)

And then it sounds like you had, like, a final straw with the church scene when this pastor was, like, stealing the donations of the church while having an affair with one of the church assistants behind his back. Wife's back.

C (21:33)

Well, and his wife. They were swingers, too. It got even weirder. She was like, Addicted to oxycontin. Like, what happened was. Is one of our family friends had. So my parents were like, we want you to find your own path. Which I. I really respect them for that. And I. I do. I'm doing the same thing with my kids. Like, I don't want my faith beliefs to transfer to my kids without them thinking critically through that. I think that that's such an important. And parents put too much pressure on their children, and I think you have a responsibility to raise them. You talk about it in the way of the warrior kid and everything. There's a responsibility there. But as far as discovering their values and their identities and different stuff, you can help mold that. But the issue was. And the thing that I loved about my parents is they were like, we want you to find your own path, your own faith path. They're like, try attending a church. And so I go to this church. It's, like, super popular. It's new and up and coming. This guy had been on tv, and so family friends started going there. And one of our friends is a private investigator, and he uncovers all this stuff. And I'm at Kwik Trip, picking up, like, a soda and a. Like, bear claw or something after work, and I see this homeless guy, and he's asking for money. And, you know, I was thinking back to my dad, you know, who had a heart for the margins. And I was like. And I just. I was like, man, I bet my pastor would just probably walk up, flash some, like, slick grin, and it's like, power suit, shake his hand, and be like, God's got you, buddy. And then just, like, nail his secretary on a pile of cash. And I was like, all right, I'm out. I was like, this is all junk. This is like. I took that Karl Marx route where I was like, this is an opiate for the masses. I was like, who cares about this stuff? I'm gonna go do me. And, you know, and that's when I was like, I gotta get out of Oklahoma. This sucks. And so I was like, I gotta join the military.

A (23:31)

And luckily, you had some military history in your family, which is pretty awesome. Your grandfather had served in World War. Both of them served in World War.

C (23:40)

II, both of them, one stateside. But my great uncle stormed the beaches in the Pacific. His name was Charlie Applin Sledge. And then my grandfather on my dad's side, Emmett Shelton Sledge, he stayed stateside at Fort Bliss. And they figured out that he could type, so he stayed stateside. Whereas my grandfather, Reginald Cortland Sledge or Reginald Cortland Whitson. He was. Went through ROTC and became. They were like, hey, do you want to jump out of planes? And he was like, that sounds cool. And so he became a paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne and then went over to the European theater and missed the D Day jump because he got pneumonia and was hospitalized. And then they transferred him to Patton's third ID in Germany, and he became Patton's scotch supplier there. And he would always tell the story. And I just remember it. He even wrote it down before he died. So I was able to pull that from his. You know, his own story.

A (24:44)

Yeah. And by the way, I haven't said this yet. I'm just, like, hitting the absolute wave tops. All that stuff that you just said. You got all those cool stories in here, a bunch of details around that, your family history. So get the book, everyone. It's. It's just a great read. It's. It's just great read. Yeah, it's. It's like part Pulp Fiction, part just life of a freaking crazy teenage kid in Oklahoma. Which. What. What kind of a.

C (25:08)

Combat. Yeah.

A (25:09)

And then. And then we get into war. So that's how you end up joining the army, you say? When I turned 18, my opportunity came knocking. The old posters on my wall reminding me to be all you can be convinced me there was an escape. Army recruiters courted me, often scaring my parents, who insisted I become a mail clerk or take some mundane job to help pay for college we couldn't afford. On December 16, 1999, I raised my right hand, swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States, and took the lowest rank with which you can enter the armed services. Private.

C (25:37)

You won.

A (25:39)

I didn't tell my parents I'd enlist in the Army Reserve Special operations attachment until after I've been sworn in. Special operations members often use unconventional warfare methods due to their highly specialized training, which can range from language to warfare to diplomacy. I didn't know it at the time. I just thought special operations sounded cool. When my parents found out, they were not pleased. Were they not pleased that you joined the army? Were they not pleased that you did the special operations component or just everything?

C (26:07)

So originally, I wanted to join the Marines, So I was like, oh, they have a slick uniform. You know, you saw the recruiting ads. And so the recruiters came over and just scared the crap out of my parents. And they were like, nope, we don't want any of that. And I was like, this sounds awesome. And my grandfather started to Play a big influence. And he, you know, he had been in the army and he wanted both me and my brother to do the, to do the Army. And so that kind of made my decision. But there was this recruiter, this guy that I knew, he since passed away, and he was like telling me about special operations. And I was like, oh, that sounds cool. I was like, I bet girls like special operations. You know, again, I go back to this. This is just how stupid and trite I was during the time period. But they, when he, he mentioned it, I was like, that sounds interesting. It sounds safe enough to where I'm not like doing Green Beret or I'm doing, you know, Rangers or anything like that, where my parents are going to be too worried. And he was like, have you ever heard of the Civil affairs and Psychological Operations Command? I was like, no, I don't even know what that is. And he was like, you're going to get trained in like, things like diplomacy and languages and reconstruction efforts and then, you know, human, like human gathering. And I was like, oh, this, you know, this could actually the perfect fit for you, right? And it could further my career as I go on and I go, this is a good skill to have outside of the military. So I was like, they'll probably like that. But all they heard was special operations reserve unit and just freaked out.

A (27:45)

Jack, fast forward a little bit in the book. I began the Army's basic combat training in Fort Benning with Bravo Company 347 infantry. My most vivid memory is of some other kid prior to our drill sergeant's shark attack, telling everyone, hey guys, let's stick together. If we stick together, this won't be so bad. That kid never had a chance and neither did I. The drill sergeants entered the bus screaming, tossing equipment and privates out the back door, and everyone panicked. Outside, other recruits were already doing push ups, sit ups, flutter kicks, or running in place. Some poor kid was told to beat his face and he began punching himself rather than laugh. The drill sergeant screamed even more, no private dumb fuck do push ups. Which I was like, yeah, that's, that's just where it's happening.

C (28:29)

And I know they don't do the shark attack anymore unless you're in the Marines. And I missed that.

A (28:33)

Do they really not do that?

C (28:34)

Not in the army anymore. They've kind of changed it.

A (28:37)

I thought Pete, Hank, Seth brought it back.

C (28:38)

I hope they do. I think it works. Personally, I think you have to break down so many people coming in the military with their individual ideas and trying to be this army of one or whatever, I think you have to be. Beat that out of them and break it down so that they become a cohesive unit and fighting force. And if you don't have that, then you're going to continue to have those individual ideals. And, and like, I want to be special, and I, I really believe in the basic combat training. And I'm sure, you know, like, the more that they are just breaking you down, it helps you rebuild into this stronger element where you're willing to do anything for the people next to you.

A (29:16)

Yeah, they have a. The new. They rebuilt like the SEAL training compound. And it's really beautiful. But one of the things, they have very few things written up on the walls. You know, some of them are a lot of things that people have heard before. Like, no, the. The only easy day was yesterday, that type of thing. But one of the things that says, abandon self, embrace team. That's all it says. You're like, right, that's the point.

C (29:36)

That's the point.

A (29:37)

Like you. You as an individual don't matter. You have to embrace the team again. You got some good stuff going on in boot camp. And you say, the day I graduated, my family received the honor of sitting in the reviewing stand. My grandfather had approached the condre. Pulled out his old World War II military identification card, which you actually just showed me before we hit that. So just awesome. It blew the brass's minds. As a paratrooper from the greatest generation was sitting in their presence, so they invited him to sit next to the Colonel. The colonel then introduced him. There you go. Outstanding. If you're watching on YouTube, there it is. Was sitting in their presence, so they invited him to sit next to the Colonel. The colonel was. Then introduced him as an honored guest and welcome war hero. I beamed ear to ear, knowing my granddad was proud that I'd survived the same gauntlet he'd been through. And so that's it. Get done with boot camp and then you go back home and now you start going to college. Right?

C (30:29)

Right.

A (30:29)

That's the deal.

C (30:30)

Yeah. I had, I had done the reserve to do, you know, go to college. My. That was the big goal. My parents wanted me to go to college. They had both gone to college. My. My dad went to. To University of Texas El Paso. My mom went to a small private college in like, no, I can't remember. It was somewhere in Michigan. But they were like, you're gonna go to college. In order for you to have a good job, you and your brother have to go to College. We don't got the money to pay for that. Join the military kind of.

A (30:59)

Where are you?

C (31:00)

On September 11, I am sleeping off a hangover with my fraternity and my fraternity room. So. And my mom called. Like, kept calling, and I'll never forget it. Like, she keeps calling. So I finally pick it up and I'm like, mom, what? We have these lofts, and, like, we lived in this double wide trailer that was, like, stacked. And I was a Sig app, so Sigma Phi Epsilon. And it was ghetto. It was, like, built in the 1960s. It was dirty. Like, we would party in the house because originally we were a wet campus. Before. Before it went dry. I remember, like, kegs being in the showers and stuff. So, yeah, it was like Animal house. It really was. So I'm sleeping off this hangover, and my mom's calling repeatedly and finally pick up, and I'm like, what? And she was like, turn on the TV right now. And so I go to the boxy thing. I climb down. I'm like, what? She. She's like a plane hit the World Trade Center. And I was like. And I'm watching the ticker on the bottom, right? Right. I'm sitting there and I'm like, looks like a pilot air. Big whoop, you know? And as I say that, I watched the other plane fly into the tower and just goes. And at that point, I knew my life was going to change. And I was just. I ran down the hallway screaming. I was like, everybody get up. Everybody get up. We're under attack. And people are like, what? Shut up, Sledge. You know, sure enough, they cancel, like, all classes that day. We're all just sitting around this tv, just glued to it, trying to figure out what the hell's going on. And I was just like, this is it. And then September 25th, I find myself at the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare center in school at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

A (32:44)

There you go. Fast forward a little bit. This is a chapter called down in a Hole. Another great lyric from the incredible band Alice in Chains. South Padre Island, Texas. March. You're. You're March of 2003. So you're in college. And in this particular thing, the hole that you're in is a sand hole filled with vomit. And this is. This is. Normally, I wouldn't tell an author this, but this was probably too much information for me. You said that the. The. The puke was made up of beer and lunchables.

C (33:22)

Oh, yeah.

A (33:24)

Like, that is not the detail I wanted here. And what had happened was, you're you're basically. Your brother had also joined the army, right?

C (33:32)

He was a combat medic.

A (33:34)

So both you guys are doing this, and now you're out in this party, and all of a sudden it turns out that we're invading Iraq. And. And that's what you find out at this time. And so now you say, just a matter of time. I told myself over and over, over again, just a matter of time. The call came in the middle of one of my art classes three days later. I wasn't heading to Iraq as I'd expected, though. I was off to Afghanistan, leaving in two months. And then you proceeded to tell us about the Sledge Fests. Oh, you ever heard of Sledge Fest? No. Yeah, we. We used to have something. Well, Echo used to. He's got a friend named Tim, and they used to do a party called Timbomania.

B (34:15)

That's true.

A (34:16)

No. So Sledgefest was his version of Tim.

C (34:19)

Oh, I like it. You got Timbo Fest, huh?

A (34:23)

So you guys would do these massive freaking Sledge Fest parties. And what were you using? You were getting beer money from, like, your.

C (34:31)

My GI Bill.

A (34:32)

Your GI Bill.

C (34:33)

I would buy. I. You know, this is just hubris gone to extremes to where I would, no joke, just use my GI Bill money to entice people to show up to these parties. Because I'm buying all the kegs. I'm like, there's gonna be eight kegs, there, guys. And, you know, trash can punch and, like, all this other stuff. And they just kind of became these all campus ragers. I threw one with another fraternity one time that got us sent to the university standards because we technically broke into the Oklahoma State Yacht Club and, like, through a huge rager there.

A (35:07)

What part of that is technically.

C (35:09)

Well, we get.

A (35:10)

You either got an invite or you didn't.

C (35:12)

We got a key from a member of the yacht club, but it got so big and so out of control, he had to have plausible deniability. So we got sent to standards, and everyone was like, sledge, you gotta calm down, bro.

A (35:23)

Did you guys get put on double secret probation?

C (35:25)

Not double secret probation, but we did get put on probation.

A (35:31)

So you're doing these parties, and now next chapter fell on black days. What do we got? Soundgarden. Yeah.

C (35:37)

Yeah.

A (35:40)

You'Re now you're. Now you're in training, preparing to go classroom to field tactics. Drills prepared us for quagmires we'd be bound to face. How do you know if the person you're speaking with is a terrorist? When is it a civilian? When should you use lethal force. Tell us a little bit about Civil affairs, like, what's your job gonna be in this psyops? Just to give us for someone that's a civilian, doesn't know what this job is.

C (36:06)

Right.

A (36:07)

Like, what are you training for in these scenarios?

C (36:09)

So the thing that you have to understand is civil affairs and psychological operations were created out of a need that the Green Berets had during Vietnam. They had a lot. You're always gonna have civilian interference on the battlefield. Correct. Like you were out there. You know, we're the guys that always have the terps, the interpreters. Some of the SEAL teams had it, but typically most people would come out to us. And so we're always outside the wire and always on missions. And I love to tell people. I was like. They're like, how was it? I was like, well, you either make a lot of friends or you get shot at a lot. So what Civil affairs does is in a lot of ways, and it depends on how much you want to get into that world, is you kind of become a geopolitical expert. And geopolitics is just a fancy way of saying the way that geography, history and demography, population bell curves and everything, dictates oftentimes the political landscape of everything. So if you look at Russia, for example, largest land mass, but most of it's not arable. And they cannot survive without the former Soviet states as a barrier. You know, the czars really use that. So studying histories like that, and then also like knowing how, you know, Alexander the Great marched through Afghanistan and stopped there as far as his conquest, and what is the backstory and the history, and why are these people fighting these people groups and. And what is their, you know, bell curve look like? So understanding, like their history, their culture, their background. And then at the same time, you know, they want us to do reconstruction efforts to where you are effectively. They always call it winning hearts and minds. And everybody hated that context, but it was really true. If you think about, like, Ramadi, one of the things that I consistently said is, I said if we went in, like, if the Chinese government came in and destroyed American infrastructure and all of our creature comforts, course you're going to have a violent insurgency on your hands. But if you restore creature comforts like water, sewage, trash, electricity, most times people aren't going to want to go out and shoot at you and different things like that. So there's that aspect of going, how can I influence, persuade and change the populace to get them on my side? And so you're working a lot with a local indigenous population. You're understanding their culture, their history, the, their background, the occasion, what their needs are. And then at the same time, you have all these door kicking abilities because you're going out with infantry line units, other special operations units. Like we worked with Seal Team 5 when we were in Ramadi. And so those key aspects help us change the face of the battle space and especially get the civilian populace out of the way so that special operations forces and infantry line units can do their jobs without having to worry, like, are we about to drop a JDAM on this house that is filled with civilians? Or are these good people that are going to give us the information that we need because we've established rapport with them? And so a lot of people, like, thought during the GWAT that they could do the civil affairs jobs. I saw so many infantry officers be like, oh, we'll just throw money at this project and like, we'll build soccer fields because Iraqis loves soccer fields. And I was like, this is the third one you've built and now it's just a trash dump. Like, this is not winning the war effort or the hearts and minds. It's not pacifying the civilian populace. And especially if you're not working with the tribal warlords or the sheiks and whatnot, you're going to lose that war. And that's really what became the basis of the COIN strategy while we were in Iraq, especially under Travis Patrick, when who was the S5 and I'm getting ahead of myself, he was the civil affairs liaison to Colonel McFarland, who understood the Civil affairs mission and the language and the culture, history, background and occasion of what was going on. And if you miss out on those things or you do them poorly, you're gonna ruin the battle space.

A (40:14)

Oh, yeah, it's gonna be a total disaster. A total disaster.

C (40:17)

And so that was my job. And initially I didn't really take it seriously. And then when I, you know, moved up in rank and hit, you know, my nco, like my non commissioned officer time, that's when I realized, like, oh, I got to get better at this.

A (40:30)

Yeah, no, it's, you know, every line of operation that you're conducting, they fall apart without the other, you know, and that was a huge thing. Like, there's some, there's some people that are. If you say, oh, we're just going to win hearts and minds, that's going to be problematic because the, because the insurgents will kill you and they'll kill the civilians if you Just say, oh, we're just going to kill the bad guys. Well, then you're not. Like, you're saying you're destroying infrastructure, you're going to have collateral damage. It's going to be a disaster. So you really have to work together to be balanced, to make sure that you're eliminating bad guys while you're supporting the local populace. And that was a huge part of, you know, for me when I got to Ramadi and read FM3 Tac24, which had. It was out in draft form. And I was reading it recognizing that we have to do something different. And, you know, the. The main thing that I thought and got out of that was secure the local populace. You have to make the. Just what you just said. You have to make the local populace feel like they are safe and they can live a normal life. If. If you allow the insurgents to abuse and kill and murder and rape them, they're. They're going to cower.

B (41:37)

Right.

A (41:37)

And if you have so much collateral damage or you don't, or you destroy their infrastructure, they're going to rebel. So it's a really fine line that has to be walked. And. And actually, Ramadi ended up being sort of the model for the way that is supposed to work. And like you said, we'll get into that, but let's rewind a few years. Tell us about Sergeant Paul Gonzo Gonzalez, who plays a big role in this.

C (42:01)

Gonzo is, to this day, one of my closest friends. Um, and he. Oh, dude, he. He's still in the army, like, epic. He's a. He was a Mustang like you. He made it all the way from E1 to E7, then switched over to the dark side. Sorry. And now he just got picked up for Lieutenant Colonel.

A (42:21)

That's outstanding.

C (42:22)

Yeah. So. And I was like, what do you want to do with your life, Paul? He's like, I'll probably go to army war College. And, like, I mean, he's been in army commercials and everything now. Like, it's ridiculous. But Paul was the guy who took me from a dumb private and part of the E4 mafia. You know, for those that are listening, the E4 mafia is, like, when you get to E4, you just kind of become a jackass and you, like, sham out and do all. And you're kind of leading the other privates in, like, these very destructive manners. So I was like, the king of the E4 mafia. I was like, how can we sham out? Oh, we're in the motor pool. No, we're not. So I was kind of that ultimate shammer. And what Paul did is he took me from this kid who was really afraid of going to war, and he raised me up underneath his leadership. And Gonzo, like, it's kind of a bummer that he's a pasty Irishman. It's really funny with the last name Gonzalez, but his wife is Hispanic and so is her or his kids, so it's just even weirder. But he's huge. Like, he's a tall, big dude. And I wish he didn't have the last name Gonzalez because I would have nicknamed him the Iceman because, like, nothing. But he's one of those rare breeds of soldiers that, like, you can make him hump a million miles, his feet will fall off and everything will suck, and he'll never complain.

A (43:47)

But when your last name is Gonzo and your last name is Gonzalez and you're in the military, you have at least an 80% chance of your nickname being Gonzo. That's the way it works.

C (43:54)

Works. So he was just Gonzo. And. And so.

A (43:57)

And he gave you a nickname as well. He gave you the nickname because you were talking on the phone with your boys about some party that the frat was having, and he tells you, hey, Hollywood, turn off your phone. Yeah, so you got the nickname Hollywood, even though you wanted everyone to call you Sledge.

C (44:13)

Yeah, like, I was like, sledge is powerful and strong. Hollywood is Holly. And I was that. You know, I was this larger than life character who was just constantly doing dumb stuff. And I was. You know, most people don't know how they're gonna respond when you find out you're going to war. And I put on this kind of brave facade where I was like, oh, I'm gonna go do my duty like my grandfather did, and I'm going to. I'm gonna show the world that I have value and meaning and worth because I'm a man now and I'm went to war. But internally, I was. I was terrified. I really was. And how old were you? I was 21. I think I was just about to turn 22.

A (44:55)

What were you scared of?

C (44:57)

So what had happened initially was when we were in our pre mobilization training, we met with this old special forces sergeant whose team we were going to be replacing.

A (45:10)

Don't die or the die brief. Like, you're all going to die brief.

C (45:12)

You're all going to die brief.

A (45:14)

So that scared the shit out of you?

C (45:14)

Yeah, it scared the shit out of me. And Paul saw this, like, you know, map on the wall of Afghanistan. He was like, where are all those stars in that area? And he was like, oh, that's where everybody gets killed. He was like, you definitely don't want to go there. And Paul's like, that's exactly where I want to go. And so it freaked me out. And so I started kind of deteriorating. Just call it spate of fate. I was deteriorating morale and tried to move over to, like, a headquarters unit so that I could answer radios and just, you know, stay safe on Kandahar Airfield. And Paul got wind of it, and. And for the first time in my life, I had a strong male figure do something to where he actually showed me authenticity and vulnerability. And he sat me down, and there was this old area called Thunderdome over near where our kind of, like, makeshift hooch was. And it was all this leftover, like, scrap metal and stuff. And so soldiers would go in there and, like, beat the shit out of each other when they had issues. So I was like, oh, no. He's gonna take me inside Thunderdome and just beat my ass. But he sits me down on the bench outside of it, and he just looks at me and he goes, hollywood, I heard you asked to stay behind. Can you tell me why? And, like, I couldn't even look at him. And finally, he. He just. He. He goes, hey, will you look at me real quick? And he said, I want to let you know I'm scared, too. And he said his daughter had just been born. And so he's in Newlywed, and he's like, I'm worried every day that I'm not going to make it home, and my daughter's going to grow up an orphan without me. And he said, but. And I'll never forget this, he said, courage is doing the right thing, even when you're afraid. And he said, tomorrow, we're all going to get on that chopper together, and we're all going to be afraid, but we're all going to make it home together. And then he just got up, squeezed my shoulder, and walked off. And it gave me the courage and also the kick in the pants that I needed to step on that chopper and go out to the border with Pakistan.

A (47:24)

That's great leadership. It reminds me of Chris Cappy was on here, and he. He was another reservist, and he, like, was. He went and saw the chaplain and said, like, I can't go. Like, I can't do this. I can't go to Iraq. And the chaplain was like, hey, listen, think about it. Go home tonight. Think about it. You got this. But if you don't want to go. I'll. I'll take care of it, but think about what you're doing. And he went home and that night and thought about. It's like, I can do this. So just good leadership.

C (47:54)

Yeah.

A (47:56)

Yeah. And you mentioned now you're. You're in Afghanistan. Chapter 8. It's called Cowboys from Health. Dude, I just love these titles. This is a, you know, Pantera song. So you're in Afghanistan. Your mission, what you. What your mission is, we kind of already touched on it. You know, whether it's an infantry unit, a special operations unit, they're going out in the field, they're gonna break, and you got to put it back together or you got to explain why got broken and figure out how you're going to get it fixed. How was your op tempo?

C (48:27)

It was high. You know, that's the thing, I think a lot of people don't realize, like, I was outside the wire every day. I did Mike Litland's mic drop podcast not too long ago, and he was like, how many days did you spend outside the wire? And I was like, I think, like, 500 and something. And he was like, what? And I was like, yeah, I was just outside the wire every day, man. Like, that's what I did. And so, because everybody needed a terp or we blew this thing up and these people need to be paid, or can you go talk to this village elder? And, like, that was the thing that I discovered very quickly when I was in Afghanistan, I actually had a beard. It was freaking cool. I was like, I'm one of the cool guys now, and I would wear, like, the little scarf, and I just want wear a ball cap and go around. And it was the thing that. The reason that beards got popular in the special operations community, it just became cool guy lore. But originally, it did serve a purpose. Like, in Afghanistan, if you didn't have a beard, they considered you a male plaything. And so they thought it was hilarious that all these Americans always had these shots, shave faces, and they're like, oh, they're all man boy lovers and stuff like that, so. And out of that, like, if you had a beard, they would come talk to you. I remember we had some general come in from Bagram, and Gonza and I were out there, and they wouldn't even talk to him. They're like, this is general so and so. And they're like, I want to talk to the guys with the beards. They can give me what I want. And so out of that, a lot of it was just, you know, in Afghanistan, it's very tribal, and so you had the mullahs and the local warlords that you kind of had to appease and kind of work things out. And so the Americans, we wanted to build schools for girls, and the Taliban just kept blowing them up. And so we had to really work on, like, this is why, you know, your women need to be educated. Kind of changing some thought processes and stuff, working with local families, figuring out who the bad guys were. We discovered a lot of caches. I literally have a photo of me rappelling into a cave from, like, the front of the Humvee. And I'm like, in there with, like, a pistol and I'm like, this is like some tunnel rat Vietnam shit here.

A (50:47)

I did not sign up.

C (50:47)

I was like, yeah, I was literally. And it was just. We found out it was just like, places where, like, Afghans were going to hook up. So, you know, there's like a little cot down there and everything else. But, yeah, it was pretty wild as far as everything in the world. Wild west. And a lot of times we would go on missions that were days long. Like, I remember the longest that I was outside the wire was 21 days in Afghanistan. And you stink after that point. Like, you're like, your hands are black from just everything. I remember eating, you know, the lembis bread. I call it lembis bread in the mre. It's like the soft cracker one, not the one that everybody tries to do the challenge with. I remember I'm eating this lembis bread and it's like stained black from my fingers, and I'm like, nah, fuck it. And I just kept going, this is gross. Yeah. And so we would go outside the wire, we gather intelligence, we'd go to different areas, patrol presences, and trying to really figure out, like, during that time period, you know, where the Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters are coming from. They're always coming from Pakistan. We knew exactly where Osama bin Laden was during that time period. It was. I mean, like, we knew the whole time. It was just a question of when we were going to take them out. I remember getting briefings on it. And we were in this. If you've ever seen the documentary Restrepo or you've seen the outpost, that's what my life was like. You had those bunkers and they would just attack the base. They just start launching artillery in 107 millimeter rockets. So we would get attacked like every other day. And so out of that, it was just it was kind of this. You were never safe anywhere and you just kind of learned to live in that. And so it was like I was outside the wire, but even inside the wire things were just nutty. So that was kind of my life there. And then at the same time, you know, you have to remember Afghanistan is the most heavily mined country on earth, left over from the Afghan Soviet war. So there's just landmines freaking everywhere. And you're kind of dealing with that. And like, do I walk here? Do I not walk here? And then the civilian populace will accidentally step on a landmine. They'll blow themselves up. We have to return the bodies to the families. So I'm dealing with like all this death and kind of destruction. People start to die around me and, and I was like, I guess this is it. I'm in it. This is war.

A (53:20)

Yeah. And just a, a little thing I wanted to mention, but I for. I didn't say it at the time, but you were talking about how in this job of, of civil affairs, you've got to kind of understand the geo. Geopolitical strategic world. But then one year in the field, what you have to start to understand is the micro political situation that's going on between these different tribes. And that's what you have to go out there and, and calculate and learn and understand and talk and communicate with people and, you know, ask them questions and figure out what's happening. And then you gotta take all these different elements and put it together and find out what's real and what's not. So it's a really tough job. And then on top of that, you mentioned in the book, you're in a place that's nicknamed Rocket City. You know, this is sort of like.

C (54:04)

Crossed out the sign. Yeah. When I arrive, I'll never forget this to this day. We. We show up. It's called Camp Harriman. It's Oregon. E. And then I was in Schken, which was another small forward operating base before we, you know, called them cops and combat outposts. But so we're in the small forward operating base and we land and the choppers go in and I look and it says like, welcome to Camp Harriman. Somebody had marked it out and put Rocket City. And then I walked, walk in to the past the, the hesco barriers for blast walls and everything. And there's these two, I'm guessing they're privates and they have their shirt off and it's like the movie Jarhead. They're stirring the shit and they're burnt. You wonder why we all have asthma and respiratory issues now, like burn pits. So we're all stirring our own shit with JP8 jet fuel, breathing in the fumes. And they're doing that. And one guy just leaned, leans over and vomits and the other guy points at him and laughs. And I'm like, is this my life now?

A (55:07)

So yeah, bro, that is a. That is an epic scene right there. You showing up, the name's crossed out, it says Rocket City. You walk in, those two guys are burning, one of them pukes, the other one laughs at him.

C (55:19)

That is.

A (55:19)

That is you. That is the. That is the life of an infantry man right there. That's freaking epic. Going to the book here real quick. We picked up a field grade officer we nicknamed Major D. Death Wish as a last minute addition. Our company had been lacking an officer for our team chief position. And they weren't about to let Gonzo, a young promotable sergeant, run the team. Somehow Death Wish had been hanging around Fort Bragg looking to join a team headed overseas. No one asked why or inquired as the reason half of his paperwork was missing. They let that slide. We discovered those details when the first two weeks of arriving on base, when members of his former unit halted in utter shock upon seeing him. We never called him Death Wish to his face, but always used proper military etiquette and addressed him as sir behind his back. We saw him as the source of constant dysfunction and utter ruin. Death Wish earned his monitor moniker from constant talk of death. Absurd, absurd claims are. Planning to kill the enemy fighters with his K bar and unbridled incompetence, which we believed would lead us straight to the gates of the River Styx if he remained in charge. Just pointing it out, you know, Know there's sometimes people think military leadership is all squared away and it's not. And you guys had an officer that was not too squared away.

C (56:31)

Right.

A (56:33)

Another thing that you're doing, and I forgot to mention this, but you know, talk about in the book, feed him to the pigs. What's that from?

C (56:39)

That is a Parkway Drive song.

A (56:41)

Okay.

C (56:42)

Parkway Drive is an Australian metal core band.

A (56:44)

I did. I didn't know him. That's why I didn't recognize it. Another thing that you're doing is when people get captured, when they come back to base, a lot of times the civil affairs people are either guarding them, but interrogating them again, correlating intelligence, putting it together. And one of the things you do is you talk about what those guys, what's going on with those guys. When The US military sees men for terrorist activity. They were flex cuffed and burlap bags placed over their head. What year is this? 2003. 2004.

C (57:12)

3.

A (57:14)

So this is early on.

C (57:14)

This is in when enhanced interrogation was still a thing.

A (57:18)

Cleared hot. Once they arrived at our combat outpost, they would be stripped naked, washed, doused with lie and sometimes to have their beards, beards shaved off. This was under the guise of keeping lice and disease from spreading, but it was more done out of malice. Afterward, the men would be kept awake for three days while being fed a constant barrage of metal gangster rap and soundtracks of crying babies. There were beatings too on our small outpost and other FOBs, Central Intelligence Agency contractors, Delta Force and other special operations soldiers ran cross border operations. They were also on recon, recon missions run by tier one group so secretive I'd never even heard of them. They had code names like Gray Fox and Profit and played by their own rules. I was jealous. They didn't have to put up with the big army bullshit. So any chance I had to load in the back of a Toyota Hilux with a gray group of operators, green braes, I would. I was probably a detriment to their mission most of the time given that my special operations training was lackluster compared to their expertise. Still, the intelligence Gonzo and I could gather from locals through relationships and civil military operations went further when operators showed up with backpacks full of cash asking for informants. Thus they would bring us along once a blue moon to pick our brains on dirty tribal leaders poised against U.S. operations. So this is what you're doing? This is what's happening.

C (58:31)

Yeah, and it was, it was interesting. Like they would like some of the. I remember that some of the special activities guys would show up and they would just have backpacks full of cash and they'd be like, okay, you know, who wants to tell us who's dirty? And this you can get like thousands of dollars. And the thing that they did not recognize, and this is where we came in, especially understanding their religion as well too. Like for the listeners here, you have to understand that geographically the Sunnis outnumber the Shia Muslims six to one. And so that's why Saudi Arabia claims to be like the center for all Islam. And you have to go back to the break with Muhammad and I think it was Abu Bakr, one of his sons or cousins or something like that. And then whereas like Iran is Persian and Shia and they control the Persian Gulf, so you have this split. But in Afghanistan it's you know, it's predominantly Muslim, so as opposed to Persian, even though they're close to, like, Iran. And within that, the culture in Afghanistan and like Middle Eastern culture is if you can pull a fast one on, like a contract or your family or whatever, it's just good business. It's just the way that we do things. And so they would show up with these backpacks full of cash and like, some. An uncle who has a grudge against, like, his brother or whatever is like, yeah, that guy's a piece of shit. And next thing you know, that dude's getting pucked. Flex cuffed. Puck is person under control and thrown in the back of the Hilux. And we're like, yo, yo, no, this is not how this works. Like, they're just telling you this stuff. Let us work our mission and everything. And so we were able to get a lot more intelligence that was beneficial to the operators because of our understanding of what was going on during that time period and who the tribal warlords were. You know, what. What were the issues that they were facing, who actually controlled power and what was going on. But I think early on, they just figured cash would talk, and it didn't really work that way.

A (60:38)

Yeah, that's something that I think everybody had to learn. I know we hit a target one time, and this was in Iraq in like, oh, three. And we know we get this target package. This guy's a financier. He's got a bunch of money he's spreading around. He's causing attacks. So we go hit his house and breach the door and roll the guy up in the middle of the night. And it's a. And I'm. I go in there and I'm looking around, I'm like, well, this is a night. This is a. Guy is a serious financier because there's a lot of nice stuff in here. Not your normal, you know, it looked like a western house. Pretty much China and the silverware and the whole nine yards. And sure enough, once I get back, because, you know, you're doing it on a very tight timeline. Like, hey, we got this guy. We got this intel. Go get him now. And we get back and, you know, we start going through the intel that we. Because we take, you know, paperwork and stuff off the target. And this guy. Oh, well, this is weird. Appears like he's a doctor. Huh? Okay. What are the interrogators saying? Yeah, they're saying that he's saying he's a doctor. Okay, well, that all lines up. And so now I start Going to the intel people like, hey, where'd this intel come. Come from? And I start pulling the string, and sure enough, he had fired, like, a nanny. Like, he had, like, a nanny and fired her. And she was like, oh, really? Watch this. Then she went and told coalition forces and, you know, that this guy was a terrorist financier. And sure enough, you know, we, you know, like, hey, man, sorry, here's a bunch of money. You know, we'll give you a ride back out in town. This is terrible. That's.

C (61:58)

You know, so we did the same thing multiple times. We would have to pay people just because, like, we had gotten bad intel.

A (62:04)

Yep. Y. So be very careful when you. And there. That wasn't the op that made me do it. That was a. We hit another target one time where there was a red. You know, we got the target package. There's a red X on a building. I'm like, cool. We go hit the target, and we get in there, and I'm like, looking around like, this does not seem like bad people. And, you know, even as a look, you can't tell as well as a local can. But. But when you go in a building, you're like, this seems very normal.

C (62:31)

Yeah.

A (62:31)

And also, insurgents, they have a certain way of acting. At least 70% of the time, they're like, acting a certain way. And none of the people are. None of them are looking at mad dogging or they're all just looking scared and like. Like they didn't do anything. And sure enough, you know, terps are talking to him. Oh, you're looking for that guy two doors down. Cool. So we go hit it. We get the bad guy come back, and I start the same thing. Hey, where'd this intel come from? From where this intel come from? Oh, came from this person. Okay, Go to that. That person. Where this intel come from, and finally get down to, well, you know, oh, yeah, I'm the one that put the red X on that map. Okay, cool. What? Why? Why did you put the red X? And he was like, oh, it was the center of the area. We were told that this person lived. It was just the middle of the. It was the middle of building. And I was like, cool, I will never do another. And that's when I never. After that, I never hit an op without, like, knowing where that intel came from specifically. So these are lessons that you kind of had an indication of because you're doing civil affairs, because they taught you some of the cultural things. And, you know, even the special operations guy, just like me in the beginning of the war, we're just knuckleheads, you know, and we didn't put all that together, so good stuff. Now, meanwhile, you're dealing with this guy, Death Wish. You say the first couple of missions with Death Wish were a disaster, and it just didn't look good. And every time he goes out, he's causing problems. He's getting jumpy, he's getting frantic. You two, you and Gonzo are trying to go out as often as you can so that you don't. So that they don't think everyone in your unit is a bunch of freaking knuckleheads.

C (64:05)

Incompetent.

A (64:08)

Let's see. Gonzo was the first to notice our predicament. Oh, this is a new world. You're out on a mission. Yeah, you're out on a mission. You're walking. Gonzo's the first to notice our predicament. Don't freak out, okay, Hollywood? I scanned the horizon, looking for enemy combatants, and dropped to a knee. Gonzo sucked in a quick breath and exclaimed, don't move. I knew immediately we were in. In a minefield, man. For real. Gonzo nodded in reply. Well, this goes strictly against our don't die policy, I said, trying to add some levity to the situation. The don't die policy was something Gonzo would come up with when I expressed fear over dying and how we plan to make it home alive. His response was simple. Well, then, don't die. Adopt that policy. Not exactly helpful, but it made me laugh and became a running joke. How'd you guys get out of that minefield?

C (64:55)

That's a tough story. So I wanted to write a book that showed war and, like, all of its ugliness, the things that people do and people don't do. And I've gotten lit up a few times just because I was really honest. And it's. It's funny because I've. I've talked a lot to other friends. I was like, did you do stuff like this? And they're like, oh, absolutely. I just wouldn't write about it because people would come after me. And one of the things that. So we're in the middle of this minefield. And so again, earlier I referenced that Afghanistan is the most heavily mined country on earth, especially during that time period. And so you have, like, all these leftover mines and whatnot. And so the locals, what they would do is they would stack rocks and paint them. And usually when you're above, like, the tree line area, which we were that day, you know, that's that's where they are. So we're above the tree line, where it's just all rocks and everything. And I turn around and I look, and sure enough, we're in a minefield. And I'm like, do we do, like that scene in Rambo 3 where we're doing this? And our interpreter comes up in the way because we had scouted on ahead in front of the 10th Mountain guys, and he walks into the minefield, and I'm like, hey, man, come here. And so he just walks over to me. He hadn't noticed either. And he didn't even seem to care. I think he noticed the rocks, but I was, like, waiting for him to step on one and just pink mist everywhere. And so it was a failure of leadership and everything on my behalf, you know, but I didn't want to die. And you never know what you're going to do in a situation where. Where you think you are going to legitimately die. And unfortunately, sometimes that can lead to some very poor decisions. And that was mine. But nothing happened. And I just. We watched him walk back out, and then we just followed his footsteps. And then we immediately went to, like, the captain of this column. And we're like, yo, there's a huge minefield up here. We gotta be careful. And we need to take this area down. Cause when we look down, there was just rocks piled up everywhere. So there was, like, one lane that you could go through. And part of the problem was, is we didn't know that this was, you know, is this setting up for an ambush or something? Did they mark this area so that we would take this path? And so, you know, word starts to spread. And then our interpreter, we let him know. We're like, hey, we're. You see all these mine fillers? He's like, oh, yeah, yeah. And the front of the column, like, halts, and this guy's like, you know, it's like almost if talking or breathing is gonna set off something. And he's like, there's a fucking mine in front of us. And so the whole column stops, and they're like, hey, will you get your interpreter? You know, he's local and everything. And so we come up to the front, and that motherfucker, I'm not kidding you, walks up, picks up a mine and goes, this isn't a mine, and throws it. And luckily, we discovered afterwards that the priming charge was missed. But it was a legit mind. Just fucking chunks of mine. And that was the moment I was like, I probably deserve that for what I Just did when I had him walk into the minefield.

A (68:00)

So use him as a mind clearance.

C (68:02)

Yeah. And like he was. And like, people will make poor decisions and more like, you know, you hear about it even in the veteran community, is just stuff obviously going on with Benghazi and kind of the drama there, but nobody knows how they're going to act until they're actually in that situation. And so I was like, I'm not going to write it. I am going to write it. I'm not going to write it. I am going to write it. And when I initially was writing everything, I put Paul in a very, you know, Gonzo in a very nice light. And when he was reviewing the manuscript, he said, he goes, sledge, you made me look too clean. And he was like, I have all my own flaws and skeletons too. And he said, you need to write me the way that. That I deserve to be written. Okay, so again, great leader because of that.

A (68:52)

Yeah, yeah. That stuff, it stings to write, you know, it's the opening chapter of the book. Extreme ownership is like, horrible. Blue on blue. Friendly Iraqi soldier killed one of my guys, wounded a few more Iraqi soldiers wounded fratricide. Like, yep, that's the opening chapter. That's me. It sucks to write, but if it gets the lessons across, then it's worth it.

C (69:13)

Yeah.

A (69:17)

Fast forward a little bit. Gonzo and I had been compiling evidence of death wishes, incompetence for a while. The final straw came on patrol one afternoon. His usual brand of paranoia was in full effect, but this time he kept the muzzle of his weapon pointed near the back of my head while we drove over rocky terrain. Yeah, I was panicked. He would flip his selector switch from safe to semi automatic with. With each bump, the. Over the harsh terrain, I cringe, waiting for a bullet to enter my brain. I suppose it would have at least been a quick death, but still, killed by incompetence is hardly the story any parent wants to hear. The army probably would have given me a slew of awards claiming I got out fighting. And you guys basically present this up the chain of command and Gonzo, like, sends you out to skin.

C (70:02)

Yeah.

A (70:03)

To just in case there's any fallout or any chaos breaks out, because it's a big deal, you know, having a mutiny in the field is a big deal and it can have collateral damage. Luckily, in this situation, there wasn't really any collateral damage. And he got relieved of command.

C (70:21)

He did. We. We effectively relieved him of command. They brought him back under the guise of like, hey, he needed to go back and draw these things called SERP funds, which is just more fun fund for reconstruction efforts. And we had a really, really phenomenal company commander. His nickname was, was Maximus. That was his call sign. And he, he looked like Winston Churchill. And he would always chew on these cigars all day long. But he was, he was very, very, very, very competent company commander. And when he reviewed everything, he was like, this guy's got to go. And the reason that he had been hanging around at Fort Bragg was of his own incompetence and that, like he just kind of like made paperwork disappear and then saw that this team needed a team leader because they're on short supply of civil affairs officers. And so they stuck him in. And his team, like they gave us the whole rundown as soon as we got there. And we were like, oh, we're in trouble. And so we just, we started compiling evidence. We got sworn statements from some of the infantry guys that we were close with that said, yes, he's a danger to the mission and everything. And when we compiled that and sent it up the chain of command, that it was irrefutable at that point. And so what's crazy though, Let me tell you the crazy part of this story. This is not in the book. He ended up going to another civil affairs team, like a Bravo team that was there in Kandahar. Ended up staying there even after they went home. The army had to go send somebody and forcibly remove him from country.

A (71:55)

Damn. Yeah, that's freaking terrible. Again, military leadership is not guaranteed to be squared away. Fast forward a little bit. The girls school we'd helped build with coalition forces was now a rubble heap. As I sifted through the debris, my eyes turned to observe Gonzo. He was conversing with a member of a Special Forces operational detachment Alpha team. ODA team. They'd been the ones to start the school project, and we'd finished it shortly after our arrival. I waited for them to finish speaking, then stood. I stepped cautiously through the seared paper, charred desk bits and ran rock until I reached him. The whistle I let out before speaking was long. Gotta be pretty damn demented to blow up a girls school. No bodies though, so I guess that's good. Gonzo surveyed the destruction, looking at me. My daughter's only a few months old, you know that, right, Sledge? I nodded, uncertain where the conversation was going. People back home don't understand the importance of the away game. If we allow these ideologies to go unchecked, then mark my words, this will happen on Americans soil. I Nodded in approval, but felt the weight of my hypocrisy. What's. What's your hypocrisy all about?

C (73:15)

I had. You know, you start to get jaded in war sometimes, and it's. It's easy to start looking at everybody like the enemy as opposed to human beings. There's a reason. Like, if you've ever read the book on killing by Lt. Col. Grossman or understand the psychology of killing, it's one of the things that they discovered was, like, During World War II, most people couldn't pull the trigger to kill another fellow human. And so the army and the military, like, revamped all of that. And so you start training and you begin to dehumanize people. So, like, you ask any infantry guy, you know, what makes the green grass grow? And it's blood. Blood. The bright red blood makes the green grass grow. You know, what's the spirit of the bayonet? To kill. To kill with cold, blue steel. You know, why is the sky blue? Because God loves the infantry. You know, stuff little trite sayings that we all know. Just repeatedly, I literally asked my brother, like, you know, we've been out of the military. Just one day, I sent him a text. I was like, hey, what makes the green grass grow? Without a beat? Just bam. Oh, yeah. And so you do. So you have these ways of training your soldiers to dehumanize people.

B (74:23)

People.

C (74:23)

It's. You know, in war, it's. It's why we. We dehumanize, like, our opponents. Like, so, you know, you had the Krauts, and they weren't the Germans, they were the Krauts. You had the Nips, which were the Japanese during World War II, which was literally off of Nippon, which was just a Japanese person. We did the same thing while we were in Iraq and Afghanistan. We called them hajis, and that was actually an Islamic term of endearment for somebody who made the hajj to Mecca. But we were just like, oh, we'll turn it into a slur and just dehumanize all of them. And so we've done this. You know, you had Charlie, you had the zips, all of it from Vietnam on. And the more that you're able to do that, the easier it is to kill another human being, as opposed to, like, actually seeing their humanity in front of them. And so I began to become desensitized by all the death and destruction that I was seeing around me enough to. Where it even translates, translated over to the kids. And I started being malicious to Them and like, kind of mean. And I realized that, like, I wasn't holding myself accountable. I had this hypocrisy to where, you know, oh, I'm supposed to be the good guy here, but I'm acting in ways where I'm the bad guy. And so Gonzo started, I think he saw it, but he, he wasn't one of those leaders who just like, knock it off. Knock that shit off. Instead, he took the slow, gradual approach and led by example. And so when he would have these conversations with me, it would reinforce kind of that aspect and the responsibility. And what he was really doing was grooming me to become a non commissioned officer. And so I began to see that own hypocrisy in my world. I was like, you can't treat civilians like they just don't have a choice in the situation, especially kids, man. And so that was really where I saw the level of me just growing more and more jaded. And a lot of it had to do with a friend of mine had died, you know, in a firefight. And I would go over to his hooch and stuff, and we'd hang out. And then, you know, he came in on the litter and he was just gone, man. And that really jacked me up. And I was just like, he was here, now he's not here, now he's gone. He just, you know, that's it. And so I was just like, the Afghans are the enemy. And. And what I had to recognize over time was that I was becoming the same way, that the people I was fighting against were like the Taliban. So.

A (76:57)

And Gonzo was leading with the indirect approach, like, hey, man, you know how old my daughter is, right? Like, he's letting you know, man, you can't. Without saying, you can't think like this, which is gonna pro. Might. Might make you defensive. What are you talking about? That's. They did this. But instead he's just taking that indirect approach, man. Great leadership. Meanwhile, he's also great leadership. He's also starting to see that, like, you're getting a little frayed around the edges. And he gives you R R. Yeah. In Qatar. And you know, you were, you were basically, you know, you say in the book that, that it. You didn't recognize it at the time. And it wasn't until you read with the Old Breed, which is written by your. What? Great, great cousin, whatever. Yeah, yeah. E.B. sledge, you know, and you, you quote his book with the Old Breed, you know, book that. One of the earliest books we covered on this Podcast was that book because it's one of the best books ever. To be under a barrage or prolonged shelling simply magnified all the terrible physical and emotional effects of one shell. To me, artillery was an invention of, of hell. The onrushing whistle and scream, a big steel package of destruction was, was the pinnacle of violent fury and the embodiment of pent up evil. It was the essence of violence and of man's inhumanity to man. I developed a passionate hatred for shells. To be killed by a bullet seems so clean and surgical. But shells would not only tear and rip the body, they tortured one's mind almost beyond the brink of sanity. After each shell, I was rung out, limp and exhausted.

C (78:30)

I thought that was the most accurate depiction I had ever heard in the way that I felt was from my distant cousin, you know, and it's weird, all the sledges came from this one guy, Thomas Sledge, and then he had two sons, Daniel and John Sledge, who are American Revolutionary War heroes. And their seven sons fought and then we all kind of came down from there. And it's, it's funny, when I was reading Ebe's words, I was like, like, that's exactly how I feel. How did he know that? And you know, with every rocket attack that came in, like you would hear that whistle and that scream and you would hear the impact and you would brace for it and you were just waiting. And if there was like no whistle, that's when you were in trouble. Like, because that means, sorry, it's landing right on you.

A (79:18)

The videos of World War I guys that have shell shock, that's, that's when you know it's a horror that you just can't comprehend. Those guys, that they're just shaking uncontrollably, they're perfectly physically fine, but they can't even walk cuz they're just that messed up. And they would like show them a military item, like a hat, like a military cover and like show it to them and they just completely freaking break down because anything related to the military made them think of getting shelled. And so, but even, you know, I think, you know, you talk about the book that they basically had like every night they would rocket you guys around a certain time and like it wears on you. Gonzo eventually. So you go and leave Qatar, enjoy humanity for three days or whatever. Normal life for three days, four days.

C (80:06)

Tommy boy's dad while I was there. Brian Dennehy. Is that it?

A (80:09)

Oh, that's one.

C (80:10)

Using the original Rambo.

A (80:12)

Yeah.

C (80:12)

Okay, I Had a beer with him. I was there.

A (80:14)

Nice. You come back from that. Actually, Gonzo goes on leave.

C (80:19)

Right.

A (80:20)

And while Gonzo's on leave, I'm gonna go to the book here. The deep divots in the wall accentuated the blood spattered everywhere. It looked like a child had flung cans of paint across the room, which was soaked in color. Bits of human remains coated the floor. A few victims had been decapitated, and someone had strewn his organs along the streets. The entire police force, along with 20 other people, were dead. Gonzo had returned from leave, and we'd been in a briefing of briefing with the command of members of the third special forces group when we got the word. 70 to 200 Al Qaeda, Taliban, and corrupt locals had launched an attack against the village of Burmell, Afghanistan. The report sounded like something out of a horror film, and I was certain it had been exaggerated. It wasn't. So this is just a massacre?

C (81:13)

Yeah.

A (81:14)

And you guys. Did you guys go on scene to assess the situation?

C (81:17)

What's weird is, like. And I've learned about this in my work in mental health afterwards is like, the brain does stuff to protect itself, and, like, my only memory still to this day is like, pulling a human tooth out of the wall. But here's what. So I wouldn't have even wrote about it had I not. I kept a journal while I was there, because I was like, if I die, you know that at least people know what happened. And so I still have my journal. And I went back when I was writing the book, and I was like, this is crazy. And sure enough, like. And originally, I thought Gonzo was not there. I thought he was on leave. And then he read the chapter and he goes, hey, Sledge, I was there too chat. And I was like, oh. I was like, you remember it? Then he was like, yeah, it was one of the worst things I've ever experienced.

B (82:05)

So.

C (82:07)

And, you know, I don't know about the reports and everything. I just wrote what I had in my journal. I was like, 70 to 200. That sounds a little extreme, but you know how sometimes intel comes in and they're like, there were this many people, and it could have been just like, 20 dudes that went in and just wrecked this village. And we had just. We'd been doing reconstruction efforts and projects there, and they just came in and killed everybody.

A (82:27)

So you go and talk about the movie Starship Troopers, and, you know, Johnny Rico, how he's, like, going to drop out of training, but then he sees that his hometown of Rio de Janeiro has been totally destroyed by the aliens. And you know, he's getting interviewed. So this changes his mind. He wants to stay in and he's getting interviewed. And you say his only word to the journalists are, I'm from Buenos Aires and I say kill them all. After the Burmell massacre, I became Johnny Rico. I stopped caring, I stopped feeling. I hardened. I was Hollywood and I said, kill them all. Followed by the next chapter, which is called Symphony of Destruction.

C (83:10)

I thought about naming it. Kill Them All.

A (83:11)

Yeah, close. And you know, there's a weird dynamic dynamic there because we got Kill Them All. We got the whole Metallica versus Megadeth, you know, drama between those two bands, but a little. You went with Symphony of Destruction. So that's what's going on. You know, you're conducting more operations, you're continuing with these, with this mission. And how long is this, how long is this deep into deployment at this point?

C (83:40)

Oh, I don't, I don't know.

A (83:43)

How long was, how long were you over there for?

C (83:45)

Nine months.

A (83:46)

Nine months?

B (83:46)

Yeah.

A (83:47)

@ some point you get embedded reporters. Yeah, and they're embedded reporters from 60 Minutes. Gonza said Cooley Colonel gave us the. Gave the staff a heads up the other day and reminded us to be on our best behavior. Any hijinks end up in the news and it'll be everyone's ass. So try not to do anything dumb, okay? Like hit on her. Exactly like, exactly like that dumbass. Within a day, we met the mystery woman and man accompanying her. It was Lara Logan, the chief foreign correspondent for 60 Minutes and her cameraman, Jeff Newton. Laura and Jeff began accompanying us on patrols as we spent most of our time outside the wire speaking to locals. So now you got freaking reporter there.

C (84:25)

Yeah, yeah. And you know, Laura became a good friend of ours and I haven't talked to her since really a long time ago. But Jeff and I still stay are close, we still talk to one another. So.

A (84:37)

I mean I don't know her at all but you know, everybody that I've talked to her, talked to about her, said she was like just epic going out on patrols.

C (84:47)

She was legit. She got blown up while we were there. So she came back, got hit. Hit in ID and well, it was a landmine but bruise on her face, the whole nine yards. So she was, she was the real deal.

A (85:00)

Yeah. How did your guys behavior change when she was around?

C (85:05)

Oh, we, we definitely were like.

A (85:08)

You had to cool out your freaking. No 14 year old maturity.

C (85:12)

I didn't. I had photos of her like kissing Me on the cheek and stuff. And I'm like, you know, and she spent. I was like, I'm gonna become best friends with this person, you know, I was like, bert Kreischer. I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna become best friends with her, and she's gonna like our team. And that's what we did. I kind of like psyopter and. And she became friends with, like, our etac and because we were always close with the air force guys there, our e tax, you know, JTACs, alos, stuff like that. The guys who called in all the airstrikes, we were super close with those guys. And we spent, like, most of our time with them in the evening. Christmas, Thanksgiving, the whole nine yards. And she was there during kind of like the. The early, like, November to December time frame, and then left, like, right before, you know, I got injured. But we. Yeah, it was like us just being, I don't know, kind of adolescent boys with a crush, you know, Gondo, you know, he was married. I was single, so I had a girlfriend back home, but I was just, you know, I was like, I'm gonna be that guy. So. So Hollywood was still alive during that.

A (86:15)

Was going strong.

C (86:15)

Yeah, he was going strong.

A (86:19)

You just mentioned before I got injured. I'm gonna go to the book. December 10, 2003. The small window near our room exploded in a shower of glass. The wood panel I kept in front of the glass landed at my feet with shards of glass peppering the floor. I stared at the shattered wood and glass for a few moments until the sirens went off. I scrambled and put my body armor on, thinking briefly that the cold December shrill I might want to put on warmer clothes than my stained brown shirt and black shorts. Unwilling to take that gamble, I charge in the open air, where I found a medic frantically working on a young Afghan boy with shrapnel, his chest gasping for air. I hovered over both the boy and the medic, uncertain if I should help. The medic flicked a large bore needle, preparing to jam the syringe into the kid's chest. I waited a moment longer, watching the blood pool in the silt below the child's back, and then found my feet and ran. When I arrived at the talk and pushed my way through the bat wing doors, Gonzo was there to give me orders. Protect the locals, gather intel, and don't die. Little did I know that day would change everything. Y. I opened my mouth to ask for more information, but a loud, short whistle screamed over the talk with just enough time for someone to yell, incoming. I flinched while Gonzo stood tall, unimpressed by the attack. He pointed to the door and gave me my orders. You got this. Ha. Hollywood. Now move. The problem with war movies is they're sort of accurate. Everyone's yelling and you're hyper aware of your own breath. Nobody has a clue what's what he's doing either. You make it up as you go, the muscle memory from training taking over. As I rounded the corner from the talk, a short shriek, shrouded, sounded overhead. Before I had time to duck, an explosion sent bits of shrapnel whizzing through the air. I slowed down and my body slammed against a wall, then covered my eyes against the waning sunlight. The the impact had hit the outer gate perimeter close to a bunker where the other soldiers had taken cover. Before I could move, another rocket slammed into the bunker, sending shrapnel and debris into its walls. Then we pressed our bodies against the side of the building, embraced for impact as another zip tore over our heads. The impact shook the building, and above me a voice rang out from the radio tower. Get me goddamn air support. They're. They're getting the talk. They're targeting the talk. Without a word, Max and I sprinted to the adjacent building buildings and burst through the screen door. Once inside, we discovered most of the local Afghans huddled next to an oven in a corridor just to the right of the door. They're getting closer. Spotter. Probably we should move into the kitchen area. Lopez gestured down the corridor and made his way into the crowd of Afghans just as Max returned to the room, sipping a Dr. Pepper and grin and grinning. Jackpot, he said. Take a sip. I laughed once more, standing with my back to the main entry just as I was about to turn and walk toward the kitchen hall way. I thought. I thought I heard the faintest whistle. Then it went dark. The great thing about our incoming artillery is that when you hear the whistle and the whoosh, you're far enough away from the impact. The shorter the noise, the better the chance you're in a kill zone. When there's little to no noise, you're dead. In my case, the rocket impacted a little over seven feet from my position. I poured my body into the wall for support and continued to wave off the scared Afghan man who's trying to help. The loud buzzing in my ears made it impossible to comprehend anything, and each verbal command I gave sounded like I was 10ft underwater. Confused, I stared at my bare arms and saw they were peppered with flecks of translucent black material. Absentmindedly, I rubbed at them, trying to move the strange material off my arms, until I noticed trickles of blood forming on my hand. I stared dumbfounded, then glanced at the main door. The blast had blown out the glass windows. I was rubbing broken glass and shrapnel into my arms. Almost whimsically, I began to take stock of my surroundings. As the ringing continued, I glanced around the room a few times, sluggish and still leaning against the wall. Then I realized I couldn't find Max. The only remnants of his presence were a Dr. Pepper can and splattered soda on the walls and floor. Feeling groggy in my head didn't help, which led me to conclude the shelling had vaporized him. Max. I yelled as I found my footing and grabbed my right ear. The buzzing was subsiding, but now throbbing grew more intense. Max, where are you? Where the are you? What the was that? I moved toward the splattered soda and saw that the screen door separated our corridor from the main dining hut had been torn off the hinges. The screen netting hung limp inside the room. Tables and chairs were flung about as if a small child had been throwing a tantrum. Streaks of blood snaked across the floor. Floor. It was reminiscent of a zombie flick where the undead dragged their bodies against the ground and leave bloody smears in their wake. My eyes traced the blood trail to a corner where I found Max. He was sheet white, rocking back and forth and holding his arm. I could tell he was mumbling something over and over, but with my own hearing muffled, I couldn't make it out. You hit. I yelled loudly as I rushed to his side. Max, can you continue to rock back and forth clutching his arm? Arm? Let me see. He shook his head in response, so I pressed. Let me see. He reluctantly released his arm and I saw the bloody mess above his sleeve. Inwardly, I cursed. My elbow. He said. I think it's broken. This was the phrase he would continue to repeat for the next several minutes, sometimes peppered with profane profanity. Not wasting my time, I pulled a black steel dagger from my body arm and sliced open the sleeve. Above Max elbow was a slight sloppy mess of muscle, tissue and fat. The wound looked like a pop can had exploded in his tricep of one of the greatest gifts of my military. The military can give you is muscle memory. When you practice the same drills over and over, instinct takes over. So I knew two things about our situation. One, Max was slipping into shock, and two, I Had to get him to a safe place and patch his wound. My many years of training kicked in, and I put his other arm around my neck and began to lift him. We got to move. We're going to get blown up again. They got us zeroed, I told him. The panic in my eyes was evident as the red stain on Max's makeshift bandage spread. His skin turned a sickly white and his breathing was labored. I was heaving under the weight of body armor, and my hands continued to tremble. I was still trying to still the tremors. I clenched and unclenched my fists while staring into his glassy eyes. Next to me, Lopez crouched, a look of concern and puzzlement on his face as he examined the wounded soldier. He abruptly stood, then pointed at the front door, where Max and I had received the brunt of the Chinese made artillery shell. We can reach triage that way. Get the medics. My hands continue to tremble. I'd been in combat before, so why was the fear gripping me so intensely now? I gave into the cowardice eking its way through my body and directed Lopez. Your turn to get blown up, bro. I. I'll stay with Max. Lopez hesitated, boots shuffling on the dusty floor. I imagined he was having the same psychological argument in his mind that I'd had. Then he nodded and ran out the door. I continued to talk to Max, whose head lulled like a drunk's, hoping medical aid would arrive this time. Where was he hit? Where's he hit? Two medics entered the room, huffing and stuck, sweating despite the winter chill. Lopez and toe. Before I could respond, they spotted the bandage and blood smears. Max's head lulled to the side while he went in and out of lucidity. He's gonna die. He's gonna die. He's gonna die. The record track in my mind was cruel. As I loomed over my friend in the distance, a low rumble began to build, and each men's man's head perked up like a prairie dogs in response, our salvation was at hand. Helicopter. The medics had already began packing their equipment. We have to get him to the lz. He has a medevac now and he needs it. Sledge shaken from the trance, I ran to the room where we got to work creating a litter to carry Max, whose clammy skin made him look more like Casper the Friendly Ghost in humor. Last thing I told him before we carted him off was the same thing you tell every dying man. You're gonna be okay. Promise. Gonzo found me after I watched Max's Helicopter fade to the dimming horizon. I clutched absently at Max's rifle for a long time, the emptiness filling me. The base medic diagnosed me with a concussion, and once my hand swelled, he splinted the arm and requested another medevac. I protested and tried to argue that it was nothing more than a few bumps and bruises. They disagreed. I was to be sent to Kandahar. My tour of duty had ended. So that moment that you reflect back on a lot in the book is the moment where you tell Lopez, like, you guys need medics. You're all in the same room. And he looks at you like, hey, get medics. As if you, Ben, go and run and get us some medics while we're getting bombed. And you looked at him and said, it's your turn to take the freaking risk.

C (95:08)

You go, yeah.

A (95:10)

And you. You know, when you reflect back on that, you feel like you are. You didn't behave the way you would have wanted to in that moment.

C (95:18)

Yeah, human nature is this. You know, you're. You're either gonna fight, you're gonna flee, or you're gonna freeze. And people freeze up in combat. You know, I think one of the things that I really loved about the movie Warfare is they showed that. And I was like, it happens to the best of us. Like, you just don't know. And I had been in a couple firefights before that. You know, I'd been shelled, and I was fine. I knew. I knew what I was doing. But, like, seeing your friend wounded and bleeding out, and initially, you know, I had that huge adrenaline dump, and that's why I ran out the back door and I hit that wall. And that wall was like the same wall that just shut me down mentally because we had erected this barrier for blasts. And, you know, I'm pounding on that wall, just screaming. And then I sprint back and that other rocket comes in, knocks me to the ground, and that's when I burst through the door. And I'm just like. That's when, like, all the fear took me. And so I was like, I'll stay and patch him up. It's your turn to get destroyed, dude. And Lopez really was. He was the hero, man. You know, they. They put us both in for army combination medals with valor devices, which the top brass in.

A (96:41)

Awesome air conditioned talk.

C (96:43)

Yeah, Fun fact. You know who downgraded them? Lloyd J. Austin. Damn. Yeah, dude. He signed my purple heart, but downgraded my. My ARCOM to just an army combination medal. So it reads really funny. I have a friend who's a Blackhawk pilot because I live on the footsteps of Fort Carson. I'm on base, and he came in, and I have my citations in my office, and he was reading it, and he goes. And I go, what's wrong? He goes, I have an arcom. And I was like, that's awesome, dude. What'd you do? And he goes, I just got it for. For flying a helicopter and doing my job.

A (97:16)

And just so everybody knows, you can get an ARCOM for, like, filling out the right supply forms, right? You know, you can get an ARCOM for, like, for, you know, doing good on the. On the uniform inspection, you can get an arcom. So the fact that you got an ARCOM for that and not an ARCOM with V is pretty freaking crazy.

C (97:36)

Yeah, it was. I mean, it was.

A (97:37)

Especially when you're getting a. Simultaneously getting a Purple Heart, right? That kind of indicates that you are in the shit, at least some level of the shit.

C (97:44)

The way that the citation reads is so ridiculous. Like, one of my Marine Corps buddies came over. He was in Ramadi with me, and. And he goes, for meritorious service while getting injured. He was like. He was like, yeah, because they train you for that.

B (97:58)

Like.

C (97:59)

But. Yeah, so when I. When I froze up, I was just like, honestly, I think Lopez was the real hero in there. But I don't feel as bad as I do about it now because, like, when the medics came in there, they were so frazzled. None of us could start an iv Their hands just kept shaking, and they just kept trying to approach, and everything keeps blowing up, and they're just, you know, every. And I'm like, let me try, and I can't do it. So finally, like, once we had the nine line in. That's when, you know, and. And the kid, for those that are wondering, he survived, too. He. He was on the. The deal. And Max survived. Like. And Max and I are best friends to this day. Like, he just moved back to Colorado. He finally retired out of the Army. He joined clandestine, like, Special Operations unit out of the. Out of jsoc. Joint Special Operations Command. So that's not his real name. So don't go looking for him. He has this, like, no digital footprint either. So he's. He's just one of those guys. And we've. We've remained best friends to this day. Like, our goal in life is to eventually retire and then just work together at a brewery pouring beer for people. Like, that's. That's our goal. Just, like, keep it chill. Just be those old war vets. That are just kind of salty, but like, like to talk to people at a brewery.

A (99:19)

Yeah, you got this, this buddy, Kyle.

C (99:27)

Yeah.

A (99:27)

Who's. I guess his real name is Danton.

C (99:29)

Yeah, Danton. Kyle Sightsinger.

A (99:32)

He's a. Gotta be careful with this. He was a marine. He's always a marine, of course, but he served in the Marine Corps and then became a soldier. He's a friend of yours and he's a friend of the family and he. So he ends up joining the reserves like you. And what, you guys are both from Oklahoma?

C (99:51)

Yeah.

A (99:52)

So just give us, give me a little background on the connection between you two.

C (99:56)

So Kyle I had met. He went by his middle name. I met him at my unit and he was larger than life too. But he was one of those guys that was, it was just infectious to be around. Everybody loved Kyle. Like, everybody, even if he was just doing ridiculous jacked up stuff. They were like, oh, man, he's. He's funny. He's a funny guy. And he's a fellow metalhead. You know, we get along great. He wants to be a journalist and an author, and so he's going to college for journalism. And he had done, like, covered the Miss America pageants down in like, Panama and like, everything. And so we become close and then he becomes close with my parents. And so he starts, I mean, even while I'm away at college in different places, like, he starts like coming over to visit my parents. And he has his own key to our house. He'll just stay the night there. And my mom, my dad would always like, cook salmon every time they would come over. That was like their signature dish altogether. They all loved it. Just like some, you know, some smoked salmon, grill it up. And the first thing that he would do when he would walk in the house. Now, mind you, you know, my parents were like, super religious while I was. Was growing up and they've since chilled out and they're. They're awesome. Like, and we have such a great relationship. My, my mom and my dad and I, he would, he would literally drop his pants and moon my mom the minute he walked in the door. And he had this like, tattoo on his ass and everything. And my dad was just, would always just be like, oh, my God, Kyle. Like, but. And he'd slap his ass in front of my mom and be like, you like that, Debbie? And so he just, he became my mom's third son. So she was just so, so, so close with him and, you know, had had her own relationship with them and, and just considered him Part of the family. So we, we had, we were just kind of like inseparable. And then I got injured and so I spend my last month because they, they had said, you can go home like you're dead weight. And I was like, ah, I'll do what I originally was gonna do. I'll stay in the headquarters element in Kandahar and I'll answer phones, like radios. And I was carting interpreters around and that was really difficult because my right arm was broken and they had, they had cast it. And so it was like this where I was doing a thumbs up, like I was the Fonz the whole time, like, hey, you know. But you know, the hiluxes over there have, you know, the driver's side on the right side and it's a stick shift. So I'm like, my arm's broken. I'm like trying to stick shift and do this and I'm like having to like move these interpreters around. And so I ended up staying. And then Kyle came to replace us because we were getting replaced by we're doing left seat, right seat with guys from our unit. And so he had actually been on Stop Loss because you know, at that time period you have a two front war going on. They need soldiers that are highly specialized in specific areas, so you can't even leave if you going to get out. So he had wanted to go over the Navy and do journalism, but he got Stop Loss, found out like, hey, you're going to Afghanistan. And so he comes in to replace my team.

A (103:06)

And you guys actually see each other in Kandahar?

C (103:10)

Yeah.

A (103:11)

I'm going to go to the book here. Kyle turned to face me, his usual playful demeanor gone searching my face for answers. I'm just worried about dying and leaving my family to deal with the wreckage. I knew the feeling, but in war, it served no purpose. Now was time to shoot him straight. He needed the truth. You're dead anyways. I responded with cold, calculated precision. It was Kyle's turn to frown, but I continued, undeterred by his countenance. The minute you walked into theater, you became a dead man walking. There are no guarantees in combat. You're always one rocket or bullet away from a dirt nap. The trick is convincing yourself that you're already dead so that every day you wake up breathing. It's a gift. Dead men have nothing to fear. So the sooner you make your peace with death, the faster you'll be able to do your job. Despite the truth of these words, I've regretted them every single day. Of my life since. I wish I hugged Kyle and said something comfort like, bro, you got this. Maybe you'll even get to see Tina Turner while you're out here. I wish I told him that he was my best friend and that I loved him, But I didn't. Instead, my last words to one of my best friends were nothing more than to prepare for his demise and not be a about it. The next morning, he would board a helicopter out to the border areas, and I'd be in a C130 military transport headed for Fort Pope Airfield. I got word while at Fort Bragg, I'd been on the phone with my mom when Kyle's dad called her. Once she switched back over, there was only wailing. It was eerily similar to the noise the old man in the mountains had made when we killed his teenage son. Between sobs, my mom choked out, kyle's dead. So you get home, and that's what you get home to.

C (104:59)

Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's brutal. Tore his family apart. Yeah, my mom and I, we. We still. You know, we. Every Memorial Day, we'll. We'll drink beer. And his favorite beer was Corona. So, like, we would just drink Corona with him and in honor of him. But the last thing that he gave my mom is this stupid fresco painting from Panama when he was covering the Miss America pageant. And he told my mom, he's like, you got to keep this for forever because you'll remember me buy it. And she's like, kyle, this is ugly. This is disgusting. I'm never going to keep it. Well, now it's, like, proudly displayed in the house, and it looks weird and out of place, but it was. It was really tough on our family. Tough on his family. I had to present his awards to his parents. I mean, it was. It was rough, really rough. And I blame myself. You know, I was like, it should have been me. You know, I was the guy that got injured. He was there a week, and we all know the statistics. Like, in the military, the first, you know, 90 and the last 90, that's when you're most likely to get killed. It's either because you're fresh and new, or you get complacent at the end. And, man, I really, really struggled after I got home. And that's. That's just, like, when my mental health deteriorated, and I was like, my. So I was like, I come back home, and this is the crazy part. So when I was going to college and doing the whole reserve thing and everything, I. I had dropped out of college at Three times now at this point. So I drop out to go to the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare center in school. I get back, I'm home for three months. I get orders for defense language institutions out in Monterey Bay, California. So I have to drop out again. I come back home. I'm home for three months. That's when I'm in South Padre Island. It's like, you're going to Afghanistan. So finally I'm like, I gotta do something. And my parents are like, why don't you take a semester off or whatever? You know, deal with Kyle's death. And I'm like, no, I gotta go back to school. I gotta do something normal. I gotta put this behind me. And it just, you know, it comes to a head. So, you know, you're partying in college, and then suddenly you're partying to bury your friend's loss. You're partying to bury what you've seen. You're partying to just quell all those, you know, images and demons inside your head. And it just got to the point where it got worse and worse and worse. And eventually, like, kicked in my girlfriend's door one night, threatening everybody. My roommate finally, like, tackles me, pulls me me to the ground. And the next day, my parents, my friends, my fraternity brothers, and my girlfriend and her friends are sitting in the living room when I wake up and they have staged an intervention. And I'm like, I up bad.

A (108:03)

Was. Did this. Did they send you to rehab or what? Was the intervention just like, get your shit together?

C (108:07)

Yeah, it was get your shit together. They're like, you need counseling. Like, you gotta go to counseling. I was like, real men don't do counseling, you know? And I realized at that point, like, I was hurting everybody that I love. Cause I wasn't dealing with what had happened overseas. You know, I'm. I'm 22, like. And I. You know, people had started calling me hero. And I felt like it is coward and I'm blaming myself. And like, my friend's dead.

A (108:35)

Yeah. And you're in the reserve, so you're not. You're just around a bunch of civilians.

C (108:39)

I'm just trying a bunch. I don't have the dudes that I was with overseas to, like, kind of process. And, you know, we have our drill weekends and stuff, and we're training, doing more for war and whatnot. But I. And I didn't want to talk to them about it because I was like, I'm going to lose my security clearance. This is going to be an issue. You know, they're not struggling. Probably not. And finally, they were like, we need you to start doing counseling. Yeah.

A (109:04)

You have a good. Well, I hate to call it a good line, but it's a good, good couple lines. In the book, you say, I rationalized that if I could leave the war behind, I could get on with my life, but the war was not done with me. And that's when you go into this kind of just disaster zone of freaking Percocet and booze and the whole nine yards.

C (109:22)

Yeah.

A (109:25)

It's so loft. And opioids. The whole nine yards. I mean.

C (109:30)

Oh, yeah. Nobody knew, like, this was at. This is before, you know, the opioid epidemic. And so I. I would literally just take my. My army paperwork about how I got injured in combat. I was like, I'm hurt. I have shrapnel wounds. And my written, you know, TBI or whatever.

A (109:47)

The pharmacist is doing you a huge favor. We got you, bro.

C (109:50)

Got you. Yeah. Like. And they're just giving me drugs, and I. And when that ran out, I just started buying from people on campus, man. Straight up addict. And I had to quit because, like, they. They eventually put me on, you know, SSRIs for post traumatic stress. And the thing is, though, that I realized, like, everybody wants to label everything, like, post traumatic stress. And we do this weird thing, like, in the military, where it's not that post traumatic stress is a. It's a state stimuli based on a traumatic incident. So, you know, women. The traditional thing you've always heard about women who are raped in a dark alley don't want to go down a dark alley. You know, vets don't like being around fireworks. If it sounds like, you know. And so you do these things called exposure. Stimuli is one of the ways that you can overcome post traumatic stress. It's small, incremental, you know, exposure to whatever that traumatic incident was. And now you have people getting out of the military who never served a day in combat, and they're getting labeled with post traumatic stress. And I'm like, I know so many in, like, Colorado Springs. I was like, this is ridiculous. And what they're really dealing with is transition disorders. And it's because they had everything, that cohesive camaraderie, the brotherhood, the sisterhood in the military to where they had somebody who had their six. You know, they've always got their back. They know exactly what they're doing day in and day out. Then they'd go and into the corporate world, and instead of people having their back Their coworkers are trying to get ahead of them, and then the CEO is trying to make as much profits as possible, and it's everything antithetical to the military. And they start to struggle. And so they're like, oh, I have post traumatic stress. And I'm like, that doesn't make sense. But for a lot of combat veterans, what I've discovered is we deal with what's called moral injury. And that's the psychological damage and shame that occurs when you have to do things that violate your sense of right and wrong. And it's everything that you see in a large scale combat operation. Dead people, shooting a woman or child that has a suicide vest on or something of that nature. It's having to pull the trigger yourself and reconcile your humanity after that. And so we live with the consequences of those actions. And so the VA and other people started labeling it complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I'm like, that's not it. It's moral injury. And so even though I went in for post traumatic stress counseling, what I was really dealing with was moral injury. Kyle's death, what I had done overseas, what I had seen, the choices of my actions, leading that interpreter into that minefield, that's moral injury. I did things that violated my sense of right and wrong. And so I met with a counselor there and started going weekly. And it was good, but I didn't feel like I could be fully honest, so I didn't really fully heal. And then, like, the strangest thing happened. And I'm sure you know this feeling, you start to miss war.

A (112:55)

Well, luckily for you, the good old United States of America had more.

C (113:00)

Oh, man, they had 20 years of baby Gonzo.

A (113:02)

Yeah. Gonzo rolled up and you're like, hey, dude. He's like, hey, we. We can go to Iraq. Takes him all of three minutes to convince you or whatever that, hey, we can make this happen.

C (113:12)

And I still can't believe I did that.

A (113:15)

Sure enough, yeah, here you are in this condition that you're in. What will help me out is more war.

C (113:21)

Yeah.

A (113:22)

So you guys show up, and of course, you show up in Ramadi. Fast forward a little bit. Everyone calls it the meat grinder. Lance Corporal Zachary Borley told us we had an ID on our first mission out. Wagner and I glanced at each other with eyebrows raised. Route Michigan was the major thoroughfare in Ramadi, and it was loaded with IEDs. In fact, 6 to 10 kilometer stretch that ran through Ramadi was the most IED in all of Iraq when we arrived. That's always Reassuring.

C (113:49)

You remember that? Like we was just permanently black.

A (113:52)

Do I remember it? Yes, I remember it.

C (113:54)

It's just black.

A (113:55)

It's just like you don't go down ideas a day and actually one time I went down Route Michigan. I was in a Buffalo, like one of the mine resistant vehicles. And I, you know, I was just a passenger. So I'm like in the back and it's huge and it's massively like mine resistant. And they were used. There's white lights. They're just looking at the ground. But it was the cool. It was the weirdest thing because it was the, the only. You know when you're in a Humvee, you're freaking scared shitless and you're freaking looking out the windows and you're like waiting to get blown up and you can't really see that well because you're, you know, you're hunkered down. Your night vision sucks. So here we are going three miles an hour down route Michigan, white lights on. And it was just such a trip. But it was. But as you. But what I remember about it is there's just freaking crater holes like everywhere. Everywhere. And you know, seven to ten IDs a day. So. Yeah. Do I remember it? Yeah, I think everybody remembers it.

C (114:54)

I just can't believe they got blown up in a bucket truck. They just put sandbags in. Like that's the dumbest thing. Marines would do some crazy stuff sometimes. They're like just go out and draw fire. And I was like, that's a terrible idea.

A (115:05)

Yeah, we had one of those trucks too. Like, you know, everyone thinks the seals being all high speed. Yeah. One of our insertion vehicles was the freaking seven ton with sandbag floors and whatever half inch steel on the sides. That was it.

C (115:19)

Yeah.

A (115:20)

Terrible protection from someone tossed like no one ever tossed a grenade in there. But that would have been freaking horrible if someone did. But yeah, that's like where you're at. That's what we got. That's what we're doing. You got to take a bunch of jundies out to hit a target. Well, we only have so many humvees. Okay, cool. Or we're going out with jundies to a target. They're taking a seven ton. Guess who's getting in the back of the seven ton with them. Like I was, I was thinking it's a bold pictures. The other day I saw some of the guys from my, from my task unit. Like just it, you know, probably three seals in the back of a seven ton with whatever 32 freaking jundies and I'm like, yeah, that's just getting some. You know, again, everyone thinks the seals are just out there doing all this high speed stuff. It's like, no, this is called counterinsurgency operations and foreign internal defense and training up the Iraqi army soldiers to be able to handle violence in their country. And there's three of my guys in the back of a seven ton rolling out in the Malab district to get some. So, yeah, yeah, fast forward a little bit. Story and Borley were two of the Civil Affairs Marines. We'd been. We'd begun working alongside when we landed in Ramadi. They, however, went by cag, which stood for Civil Affairs Group, which we found confusing because CAG also also stood for Combat Applications group, which is the tier one element from the army and popup culture. CAG is more commonly known as Delta Force. To differentiate themselves, the Marines adopted a call sign, Berserker, and painted the Norse gods Thor and Odin on each of their vehicles. This would become our call sign as well as we'd form as we integrated with the team. So that you guys went embedded with these Marines?

C (116:53)

Yeah, yeah, we worked a lot with the Marines. Like, I. I mean, that's why I have a Marine Corps tattoo. It's one of my combat patches. But I love jarheads, man. They were. They were awesome.

A (117:02)

They're awesome.

C (117:04)

I'm still close with Borle and Story. You know, you just had Scott Husing on here. He was one of the commanders for a clearing operation that I did and worked with 2 4. That's when we were out for Christmas. And that was just a wild time. But, yeah, like, I have so much respect for those guys and just the Marine Corps, and I'm actually a life member now. The 24 association, they're like, oh, yeah, you can join because you were with us in Ramadi. I was like, okay, cool, I guess. Does that mean I eat crayons now?

A (117:38)

Well, you got the tattoo, so I mean, what up? And again, it's going, now you're in a very urban environment in Ramadi. It's a city. You end up working with the various, you know, various. Because you can get called out at any time. You know, this is one of the like. Like being in a situation like you're in where you have interpreters, you have a skill set that other people don't have in their battalions or companies inherently, Right? So when someone needs an interpreter or someone accidentally freaking, you know, blows up a wall or purposely blows up a wall, but then they realize, oh, now the Wall's got to get fixed. You know, who are we gonna call? Or civilian gets wounded, who are we gonna call? And so that's what you guys. You guys become. Become like the. The ambulance, you know, nine, one, one for whenever there's an issue out in the city. And this puts you in the field all the time.

C (118:30)

Yeah. And, I mean, we just ran missions every single day. So we would have to go, you know, with infantry line units, because they would need us. So we would just get the briefings. We'd have to put in the frequency hops the night before, get everything ready to go. I mean, we. We were staged every single day. And I didn't think anything was out of the ordinary for that, because I was like, oh, this is my job. This is what. And until I, like, got home, and people are like, how many days did you spend outside the wire? And I was like, that was dumb. I was like, I picked the wrong job.

A (119:00)

So you have, like, a whole section where you're talking about Ramadi, what it was like. And I'm just going to, like, read some highlights. War zone, sewage, trash, bullet holes, pockmarks, explosions, IEDs, snipers. That's Ramadi. Fear and adrenaline. Right? That's what you're dealing with. And, you know, when you start talking again, you mentioned this earlier in Afghanistan that you talk about the civilian populace. There's, like, 300,000 civilians in the city of Ramadi. There is a government, and there's a government that's trying to function. There are the tribal sheiks that are. You know, some of them had fled. Some of the, Like, I think eight of them had been murdered.

C (119:46)

Yeah.

A (119:47)

So. But there was. Some of them were now trying to step up. Especially in the time frame that you're there, they're starting to step up, and they're starting to get their people trained. But it is. There's a lot of friction, and there's a lot of problems that can ensue. You know, if you're out, if a civilian gets killed, it is like a nightmare.

C (120:04)

Yeah.

A (120:04)

It's a setback for the strategic, you know, goals that we have. It's. It's the local populace. Like, they would come to the gate, and if. When civilians got killed, they would come to the gate and, like, protest. It's.

C (120:18)

Oh, I remember that I had forgotten about.

A (120:19)

Yeah, yeah. So it's like a severe situation, and yet you're the guys that are the ones that have to go out there and mop it up if it happens. I don't know if you guys had to deal with that?

C (120:31)

Oh, all the time. We, we, I think the worst things that, and this goes back to moral injuries. We had to pay families for their kids that got killed. Like, hey, sorry, we accidentally killed your kids, here's 10 grand. Like, how do you live with that? So.

A (120:56)

Yeah, it's, it's just awful. And that's one of the, you know, that's one of the. I always tell people like, oh, if you think you're going to go to war, if you think you want to go to war, you better recognize that Americans are going to die and enemy are going to die and civilians are going to die. And anybody that thinks it can be so surgical that no civilians. And look, America goes through the, the most extreme efforts to prevent civilian casualties. I mean it's, it's, it's awe inspiring to see the efforts that get made to make sure that no civilians get killed. Correct, but civilians are going to get killed.

C (121:38)

Yeah.

A (121:39)

And it's awful. And you know, that's one of the things like, like you mentioned, that's one of the things that it's just unavoidable in these scenarios. And you guys are the ones that have to go out and try and you know, like you said, it's a reimbursement, which again, that does sound cold to Americans. It sounds colder than it, than it is for them. For them it's like that's part of the way the culture works. Like, oh yeah, we get this. Doesn't make it any easier. Fast forward a little bit. I got to mention this guy, Sergeant first Sergeant John Batista. Cuz he sounded like he was just a stud.

C (122:19)

Yeah, he's cool dude. That's not his real name, but okay, cool. Yeah.

A (122:24)

Then you say. Another soldier I came to respect, admire was Captain Travis Patrickin, former special force soldier. He became the civil Military Operations Officer, 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division that oversaw all Vermont, the Marines, NTF 177. Having a fellow soldier who understood civil affairs mission so well made our jobs easier. And I had the honor of attending a hilarious brief in which he used PowerPoint slides full of stick people to teach the command staff how they could win in Alhambra Province. I've talked about this a bunch on the, on the podcast with basically with everyone that's been to Ramadi, everyone knew Travis Travis. Travis Patrick's plan was simple. Win over the local sheiks, recruit his men to the Iraqi police. Dump money into civilian military projects that benefit the community by hiring local contractors. Get water and electricity restored while Giving credit to the shakes, then sit back and watch the area become pacified. That was the goal. Again, that's why it's so important to protect the civilian populace, because you got these shakes that are trying to convince their men to join with the coalition. If you accidentally kill a civilian, like, they are not going to come on your side. So that's, you know, shows the. The insight and the strategic insight that Travis Patrick had and. And those efforts to make Ramadi become pacified. And then you say in the book, he just never lived to see it. Patrick, along with two others, died when his vehicles hit with a series of daisy chained IDs, creating catastrophic explosion. When the. When we arrived the following day, the char marks, crater and remnants of the vehicle told the story. No survivors. Wagner was the most incense driving down a road loaded with IDs in the middle of the day for a photo op with Ollie North. And that's a little backstory. I didn't mention it, but the backstory was. It was Ollie north was there, you know, doing a news story, and they were driving down to cop Falcon.

C (124:11)

Yep.

A (124:12)

On Route Sunset. And then you say, I believe Patrick Quinn's death helped fuel the Anbar awakening. And what you. What you believe has been confirmed. Like, other. Other people have come on the podcast explained that when that happened, like, he was so popular with the sheiks that they were like, oh, we're not putting up with this anymore, so we got.

C (124:35)

To go kill everyone.

A (124:36)

A huge piece.

C (124:37)

I remember Sheikh Satar was so pissed.

A (124:40)

Yeah, yeah. This. Local sheikhs became furious about the death that they began exacting vengeance against the insurgency. Having these new allies prompted the change we needed. But before things got better, they got far worse. Little did I know we'd be fighting for our lives in the middle of what history now wrote refers to as the Battle of Radi. Travis, Patrick Coin, major Megan. Megan McClung, who's. I think she's the senior Marine Corps officer that was killed in Iraq. And then Specialist Vincent. Vincent Pomonte, who I think he was one of.

C (125:09)

He was one of the drivers.

A (125:10)

He was one of the drivers. One of. He was one of Colonel McFarland's PSD, I'm pretty sure. And he was on loan, so that was December 6, 2006. Freaking outstanding. Outstanding people. And of course, the war doesn't stop. Like, these things happen, and you're gonna go back in the field, and that's what's going on. Didn't you just mention that we had Major Scott Houston on the podcast and you got a section in here about, about Marines from Echo Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment would assist in the blitz to route the insurgent strongholds and reclaim the city that's out in Tamim. And you described him as a. A Marine with Marine officer with a chiseled jaw.

C (125:51)

You can't see it now because he's got that giant beard and his hair's all long. And I'm like, bro, how are you keeping your hair? The rest of us are all losing it.

A (125:59)

Yeah, it's, it's, it's awesome the way you perceived him too. I found he was interested in learning from those who'd been in Ramadi and extensively patrolled the areas we'd be clearing. Thus far, any positive interaction with a Marine officer at command level had been non existent. His candor and wish, willingness to learn were the marks of a seasoned officer. He listened intently and asked questions as we briefed him on the area, the locals, choke points and buildings to target. We wanted to ensure he understood the danger of the mess we've been walking into. And I, there's a reason I'm calling that out because that doesn't always happen. And sometimes people roll into an area of operations and they think, oh, you don't know anything. Well, I've been here for four months, six months, nine months. I might know a little. Yeah. But I, I have experienced too, wherever I was. So it's awesome to see that kind of humility that you saw.

C (126:48)

He said he just stood out to me all those years, even later. And it was funny that we reconnected and have just become even closer, you know, now and work on a business now called Solid Copy Media, where we do book writing services and book coaching for, you know, military veterans, government executives, first responders who want to tell their story because it's like less than 1% of us and those stories need to be told. And so we just want to help our fellow veterans. But like, having Scott to do all that, I just. And like, I wrote that before, like we ever reconnected because he stood out so much in my mind.

A (127:29)

When did you arrive in Ramadi?

C (127:31)

October 06?

A (127:32)

Yeah, I left October 21, 2006.

C (127:35)

So we were just like, yeah, so we just missed each other because Team 5 took over. And were you guys in Full Metal Jacket at Corregidor?

A (127:43)

I had an element of guys in Full Metal Jacket at Corregidor. So yeah, we had, we, we, we were the guys that set that up. Okay. For the seals. The seals prior to me, the task unit Prior to us, didn't have guys permanently over there. And then I put permanent guys permanently over there. And then the team five guys just came right in on our footprint. So they put guys in Corregidor and guys on Camper Mahdi.

C (128:06)

So. Fun story. I have a theory, and if you can prove me. Were you guys listening? You remember how in warfare, it starts out with the Call on Me video and everybody. Were you guys listening that before? Like. Because here's what happened. From my perspective, this is crazy.

A (128:20)

So I'll ask the guys because I know.

C (128:21)

Yeah, so here's what happened. So prior to us deploying, my brother had showed me the Calling Me video. And I know it was, like, kind of rampant during the G WAT era, but we would play it to get hyped up for everything. So we just. Every day. And so. And I want to tell this story a little bit later, so make sure you ask me about it. It's not in the book, but it's about some of the men that were part of my unit that and I. Their stories deserve to be told because they're heroes. But we had this. This private, and I'm sure you know this. There are. There are soldiers and sailors and Marines and airmen that are terrible in garrison stateside, but you get them overseas, and they're fantastic.

A (129:05)

Oh, yeah, we. So we have a thing for that we call break glass in case of war. You know, like, there's a guy, you got to keep him in a glass, like, jar, because when you're out on, you know, liberty, you take him out drinking. Like, there's gonna be fights, there's gonna be problem, there's gonna be mayhem. And so you got to keep him, like, apart from normal civilians. But then in war, this is the 100% guy you want.

C (129:26)

Yeah. So we had a guy like that.

B (129:27)

His.

C (129:27)

His name is Dustin Hahn. He was Private First Class Dustin Hahn, and we nicknamed him the retarded monkey. So, like, terr. Terrible soldier stateside, Phenomenal soldier in war. One of the best. So anyway, you know, we. We had taken him under our wing and our leadership, he was part of Gonzo's teams because Gonzo, you know, goes back to Ramoni. He ends up at Full Metal Jacket and Camp Craig Door. But so they would play. So Gonzo and Han. Han, just before every mission, would play the Call on Me video, or they would come back from a really bad one where people got shot just playing the Call on Me video. Well, the CA team was in full metal jacket, and the SEALs lived right above the CA team. So Team 5 came in and they were blasting that stuff all the time. And then those guys would be go on the roof with like the snipers from 1 to 6 and everywhere and they all smoke cigars. And so part of me is like, did they get that video from us like to get hyped up before their mission? So I want to know. I Want to know Seal Team 5.

A (130:25)

I'll check with those guys.

C (130:26)

Yeah. Did you steal it from the CA guys?

A (130:29)

I'll check with them. I. I actually like kind of recognize the song, but I never, I never like listened to it on deployment. Okay.

C (130:38)

Yeah, we were always jamming that. So it makes me. I'm just, I'm curious. But yeah, so that the cr. The whole, the malab and everything, that was not my.

A (130:48)

Were you spending the whole time. You spend your time in.

C (130:50)

To me? Yeah. I was at COP Steel.

A (130:52)

Got it. Check. And then. But Gonzo and his crew was over in Corregidor.

C (130:58)

Yeah, I mean you knew how the city was. It was just violent. So you. We had to take over like different cops. So our civil affairs teams, we work in four man teams. We would. We had certain aspects of the city that we had to control and so be embedded with the infantry line units. So I was with Task Force 177. You know, 126 was there, Bushmaster 118. So I worked a lot with 1st Infantry Division and then SEAL Team 5. Obviously had an element at Shark Base that we were working with as well. Well too. And then I think it was second Ranger Bat was at Shark Base as well too, that we worked with.

A (131:34)

There you go. Did you want to tell that story about the guys in your unit that you were talking about that were heroic dudes? What's that about?

C (131:44)

Yeah, so that, that's during Operation murphy'sboro. There's a section in there about Gonzo when we lose Private Luis Kim.

A (131:55)

Yeah, I actually do have that thing highlighted, I believe.

C (131:58)

Yeah, so we can talk about that. But this one. So this is the same night. So Han, the guy that break glass in case of war, and another lieutenant, First Lieutenant Ashworth. We were so low on civil affairs soldiers that they were just putting. You're not supposed to have lieutenants in commanders positions, but we were so low during the GWAT that they were like first lieutenant promotable is fine. So we had a bunch of lieutenants that were the head of our four man team. And then you had a platoon sergeant. I'm a platoon sergeant at this time. And then you have usually like another sergeant and then like a corporal or private. So they. This is during the last engagement during the Battle of Ramadi, which is Operation Murfreesboro. And it's when they're going to clear the Malab district. And I'm sure you remember that area that worked, like, as a demarcation zone, kind of near Eagle's Nest, where. Where, like, the insurgents just controlled everything. And you just didn't go past that point because you'd be shot dead. So it's that point. They're like, it's time to clear out. And so the CA team goes out at night. You know, we've all got it. They've got their NVGs and everything else, and they're with an infantry line unit from 2nd ID, and they go into this target house, and they're like, you know, ask around, get everything.

B (133:16)

And then.

C (133:16)

And they're like, no, nobody's here. So they're questioning. And finally the guy stops him before they're about to leave, and he goes, hey, look, I don't want to get involved in this. He said, but there's IEDs all along these walls. Like, if you go out there, you're going to die. So Han and Ashworth, they go tell the company commander of this infantry line unit. He doesn't listen. And they continue down. And they're also with the Iraqi army at this point. The IEDs, of course, go off in the wall, and it's. It's catastrophic casualties. So they. Then they start taking fire. So Han starts just picking dudes up. And Ashworth, same thing, too. Some of the infantry guys freeze up, and they in. In addition to the company commander. And so Han looks at Ashworth, his first lieutenant, he goes, you got to take over. He's just like. He's all froze up. And so they start grabbing the injured. They pull him inside this target house. They start patching him up. And so. And they're. They're patching up all these Iraqi army guys, and one of the guys had been left out in the street. So Han runs under fire, and this dude's legs have been blown off, and he grabs it. Another explosion goes off, and it knocks him forward. And he hears just a loud crack in his back as he's carrying this guy. And we think he might have broke his back based on, you know, his chiropractic stuff. Now, he had to. After this event, he had to sleep this way, like, bent over his bed because his back was so messed up. But he. He gets in. He's like, having to Pinch off art femoral arteries with his fingers, throwing tourniquets on. They're just, you know, medevac. And every, everyone that they can get, they finally get a Bradley in. There's three, there's three Bradleys that get blown, blown up trying to get them, trying to get the injured out. They end up getting, getting the, the wounded. He thinks this guy with both of his legs blown off is not going to make it. That guy ends up surviving and they, it's an Iraqi guy and they host this like event for Han afterwards for saving his life. But when the Bradleys come, they can't extend distract them. So they have to do a Mogadishu mile back to Camp Corregidor under fire. And they all make it. And I'm like, dude, that is like heroism on a level that you just like, that's a, that's a 19 year old kid right there that just break glass in case of war and just takes over, runs out under fire, strapping tourniquets on, doing his combat lifesaver stuff, stuff. And when I think about like, you know, we make fun a lot of younger generations, I'm like, man, I've served with men who have more courage in their bones at 18 than some guys I know in 50. And what they can do under that pressure is amazing. And so I love telling those stories because, you know, war isn't about me. It's about the, the people you go to war with and, and what they've done. And so just to get to honor them in that way and have their stories told because, you know, you have to, in the editing process, you have to cut stuff out. That's the way it works. And so I was like, man. And so he got a bronze star with valor for that. So.

A (136:30)

Yeah, yeah. And that's a good point of that story that you just told. And you also mentioned the movie Warfare. And one thing that was what they did in Warfare is you have no context of what's happening. This freaking guys go out, total insanity. And then they go back and you get the feeling like that wasn't just another day. And that's the feeling you're supposed to have because your friend Han was in the exact same, if not worse, maybe a little better, maybe a little worse, who knows? But that was another day in Ramadi and that's what was happening. Heroic, heroic courage was just shown on a daily basis by so many of our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. It was, it was, it was a total war zone.

C (137:18)

Yeah. And I, I think about that often where, you know, I'm just in awe of the fact that what people did during that time period and just the intense bravery that I saw in the men and women that were stationed there.

B (137:35)

There.

C (137:35)

It's. It's. It's phenomenal.

A (137:39)

Also challenging. I'm going to go to the book here. I peered through the scope. Once my eyes adjusted, my heart sank. Waddling down the alleyway in a yellow dress holding munitions was a six year old girl who liked to give me flowers. You can shoot her, batista said. Technically, I didn't know the little girl's name, nor did anyone on the team, so we just called her the Flower Girl. She would hang around the corner cop. She would hang around cop steel. While we conducted Civil M military operations, most everyone on the outpost had interacted with her as she was all smiles, laughter, and cheer. Between the candy, hugs, and attention, she was a frequent visitor, often reminding other soldiers of their children back home. In return for gifts we gave her, she'd pick us flowers. I'd kept a yellow daisy in the pouch of my chest rig for weeks because I was so touched by her gesture. Inside me, every emotion roiled and I stood paralyzed, crosshairs, hairs hovering over the small child. Batista continued, they do this, you know, Using children to ferry explosives or ammunition. The rules of engagement were clear. She was now considered an enemy combatant. Plus she was moving toward the black smoke plumes where our forces were engaged. Wagner and Starnes might be in a firefight, losing what would happen if I let her go? My finger hovered over the trigger. Batista continued to watch me with intense curiosity. Inside my skull, angels and demons raged. Shoot her, you pussy. She's innocent. This will haunt you forever. What if Wegner and Starnes die? It'll be your fault. Don't do this. She's a child. Slowly, I removed my finger from the trigger, stepped back from the edge, and handed Batista the rifle. I couldn't even fumble the words, but he understood. Then he broke into laughter. Holy sledge, you're one sick he slapped me on the back, then grew serious. I just had to see what type of man you are. We don't shoot kids. We're American soldiers. Check.

C (139:43)

Yeah, it's tough though, because I I knew some snipers that had to shoot some teenagers with AK47s or chest rigs. So we do everything in our power not to. And we are willing to let our men die on that behalf and the situation in that it turned out to be. She was heading towards that area And Wagner and Starnes were completely under fire and outgunned. It was like roughly 15 to 20 insurgents. They ended up earning bronze stars with valor that day for their actions taking on an overwhelming force. And, you know, I was on top of cop steel and we're taking fire and, you know, there's this moss that's like agitating everybody. And you know how they would fling out those pizza box IEDs and stuff. So a lot of times they would have kids carry stuff like that. I couldn't really tell because she was far enough away. But I had been running an eotech red dot on my setup and Batista had, you know, like an acog. And so I peered through and I was like, oh, my God. So. And he was just, he was just weird that way. He was like kind of one of those funny jokers who would just like poke, poke the bear kind of thing. And I knew kind of to a degree what he was doing because he's like staring at me like, what are you going to do? Kind of thing. And I'll never forget it, you know, he's like, yeah, you made the right choice, man. We, we just don't do that, even if we have to let our own guys die. Like, she doesn't know any better.

A (141:09)

So, yeah, she's probably got someone. She's probably got. Her mom is back in the building with some insurgent with a pistol to the mom's head saying, carry the stuff over there. And that's the way they get the. That's the way they got a lot of suicide bombers. You know, suicide bombers aren't. A lot of times they're not, hey, I want, I want to martyr myself. A lot of times, like, if you don't do this suicide bombing, we're going to kill your family.

C (141:30)

Yep.

A (141:33)

Yeah, you were talking about Operation Murphysboro. Private Lewis, Kimmy Kim, killed in action the 20th of February, 2007. You know, it's just constant, constant. Go to page, go to advance a little bit because you start to have a little intervention on this deployment. When my eyes adjusted the low lighting and plywood pews, a ramshackle altar with a cross at the front greeted me. The room held a hodgepodge of Catholic and Protestant icon, icon, iconography, iconography and literature. Apparently, the building couldn't figure out if the Pope or Martin Luther was in charge. I walked a few steps down the aisle, hand brushing over the tops of the pews, and. And paused. I couldn't remember the last time I'd been in a church except for the few times I'd been with April. That was your girlfriend? Can I help you, my child? I wheeled toward the voice, instinctively grabbing my rifle but stopping moments before the automated response to raise the weapon toward the threat kicked in. The man in front of me wore Marine Corps fatigues with a little black cross over his name tape to identify him as a chaplain. His round face carried no animosity nor or sternness, as was the case with as was the case with our warrior cast, but a quiet and gentle demeanor. Bits of red lines flecked his nose, either due to harsh Iraqi desert or a drinking problem, I wasn't sure. I relaxed and let my rifle slip from my grasp and hang once more from the sling. Sorry, I just wasn't looking around. I went to move past the man, but he held his palms open. What brings you in here today? I laughed. Curiosity. Then I had. I eyed the name tape. Rocheford. Am I saying that right?

C (143:19)

Rocheford.

A (143:19)

Rochford. And added pastor. He smiled. Father, actually, my wife is Catholic, I offered. Forgive me, Father, for I am not. My tone oozed mock piety. Father Rochford smile didn't diminish. And so you end up developing a relationship with this guy Rochford. Am I getting that right? Yeah. Sorry. Father Dennis Rochford was a Vietnam veteran and one of six men in his company to survive the TED offensive. Meeting a non vet still serving was unheard of. So many who approached the priest for counseling did so with respect and reverence. The man was a legend in the Marine Corps and Navy. I didn't know that at first. That's freaking crazy. The dude was a Vietnam.

B (144:03)

Yeah.

A (144:03)

In that offensive.

C (144:05)

Yeah. He was wounded in action there.

A (144:08)

Yeah.

C (144:08)

I mean Scott knew him and they would do runs together. He would. He would actually run with the troops. Most of the time he was like. I mean that guy was just legend to all of them. Yeah, yeah.

A (144:22)

Another story you telling here. Saber 7, this is Red 7. We're in contact with 75 to 100 insurgents. What the fuck did they just say? Wagner exclaimed. Apparently the OP radio operator needed the clarification as well, because the next transmission was frantic. We are in contact with 75 to 100 insurgents and are running black on ammo. Requesting immediate QRF. Starnes whipped the vehicle around and started heading south to provide quick reaction. Requested. Jameson was already on the net asking for details as the attack had come from the remote area where we'd just been. Berserker 3, get off the net and return to base. Request to engage denied. This ends up is that. That ends up being Donkey island, right.

C (145:07)

Yeah.

A (145:07)

Which was a. A big thing. You can read about it. It's one. One of the things that's interesting about the Donkey island episode where all these insurgents were killed was when you. And again, I left in. In October and this was.

C (145:23)

This is July 07.

A (145:24)

Yeah. So this is pretty late, but when you read like the American reports is all these insurgents killed and the like Al Jazeera reports are civilians are killed.

C (145:34)

Yeah. And no, they were all suicide vests.

A (145:37)

Yeah.

C (145:38)

In white garb, the white head shoes.

A (145:41)

Like all nine yards, just full on suicide bombers. Yeah. So that's. But it's one of those ones where you guys are trying to get down to their help when you get told no.

C (145:50)

Yep.

A (145:51)

Did you ever figure out why you got told no?

C (145:53)

They already had a QRF on the way and. And I mean we were the closest element. We were out past like the glass factory and a little bit south. And we, we were pushing hard for it, but they, they would not let us because we were already rtb. We're like.

A (146:12)

And how many vehicles did you have with you?

C (146:13)

Just three.

A (146:14)

Yeah. And you got three vehicles and they got a proper QRF heading down there. Probably some, but Brad's. Maybe even some. Some Abrams. So.

C (146:20)

Oh, they had to send in.

A (146:22)

Yeah, that was a big aircraft too.

C (146:24)

Like the helicopter. They had to. Those guys got like distinguish flying crosses because one of them strapped. One of the pilots strapped himself to the bottom of the. The helicopter so that they could put wounded in.

A (146:36)

Yeah, we've had those. We've had some Apache pilots on here. They got a name for. Oh, they. What do they call it, like a stirrup ride or something like that. They got some horse name for doing that. That's like a protocol. They have like a little thing to clip into if they have to. Or they can either clip wounded guys into it or they can clip themselves into it and put the wounded guys in the backseat of the helicopter.

C (146:55)

Yeah, that's what they did. It was so wild and like, I mean the tough part too, just, that was a fluke. They just had a presence patrol that was out there that got hit and got hit bad. And like one of the guys, because there was all these reeds in that area. And so when they got out, they were like hiding in the reeds and stuff too. One of the guys got a confirmed kill with a pistol because they were black on ammo. That's all he had. So I mean it was pretty wild.

A (147:28)

You end up. Yeah, you got. You Got some stories in here about some of the, like, some of the other things that are going on over there, like making friends with the base dentist and getting novocaine shots and whatnot. So that's, that's always interesting.

C (147:41)

My fratty behavior had not left me. Yeah, it was trying to take care of Starnes because he was starting to fray and I could tell, like just the way that Gonzo had when I was in Afghanistan. Starnes is 19, you know, and I know his family. I promise him, you know, hey, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get your son home. And like, he's, he's been through the wringer at this point. You know, I'm like 19 year old kid dealing with like what we saw in Ramadi is pretty nuts. And, you know, we had, we'd made friends with the base dentist and I was like, hey, do you guys have. Laughing and we were like drinking in there, you know, because everybody gets their, their booze and their care packages and you're not supposed to. But I was like, you guys have laughing gas? And he's like, no, it's under like, kind of lock and key. I was like, do you have novocaine? They're like, yeah. And I was like, shoot me up in the face and then we're gonna. I want you guys to punch me as hard as you can. Like, it's like Fight Club. Basically just. I'm just being a dumb idiot. Like, there's. There's things that I'm proud of that I've. I did as far as, like leadership. And then there was other stuff where I just reverted back to my stupidity.

A (148:40)

So, you know, if you gave Starnes a fun night and got his mind off the freaking killing and death, the. Good on you, man.

C (148:47)

Oh, yeah, he laughed about it. I mean, Wagner rebuked me in the morning. He was like, hey, man, like.

A (148:57)

Can'T.

C (148:57)

Be driving a Humvee on base drunk dude. You know? I was like, ah, it's true.

A (149:02)

Yeah, that's not gonna work out well. Yeah, speaking of facing tough times, when you're on deployment, you get that phone call. You know what, in the Navy, we call it the, the Dear John phone call. Same thing I. So April was your wife at this point, Right. Okay. So I kind of messed up the Chronologies.

C (149:20)

She'd been my girlfriend while I was in Afghanistan and then became my wife after.

A (149:24)

And she says, I'm filing for divorce. My counselor think it's the right thing to do. I exploded. Who the is your counselor? What type of ass advice are they giving you. But it is what it is. And you get, you know, like one of your. One of your guys. Wagner Sledge, you know how sorry we are about your wife leaving you, right? But you're slipping on missions and that's like he had. It's like one of those things. It doesn't really matter what's going on at home.

C (149:52)

Yeah.

A (149:53)

Like we're sorry your wife is like leaving you, which is awful.

C (149:58)

But you're going to get us killed.

A (150:00)

You got to keep your shit together.

C (150:01)

Yeah. And you know, we're in that last 90 day window. So it was like he knew what was up. He's like, if you get complacent, you're going to. It's not just your life that's on the line. It's the rest of us too.

A (150:15)

Well, fast forward a little bit. Welcome home. Which is the Sanitarium song. Metallica Come home. April refused to pick me up from the airport the night I arrived home. Standing in my faded uniform, bleached white by desert sun, I felt like a failure. As I waited, as I waited to rent a car elsewhere, other members, my unit would have spouses and family members to scoop them up. All smiles and relief and said I had to figure out how to get home. And she had got a house while you were. While you were deployed. She. You had given her the power, power.

C (150:48)

Of attorney from the jags. It can't remind me.

A (150:52)

This is just a freaking nightmare. And again, so much more deep to get the book. There's so much more information in here. Things don't work in. In Houston, which is where the house was, which is where you're going to live. And so fast forward a little bit. So into the night. I drove away from Houston, away from April, away from the problems. But as the 12 step saying goes, everywhere you go, there you are. So you can't really run away from these problems. As hard as you're to trying trying. You end up in Austin, lonely, no friends, contemplated suicide.

C (151:25)

Yeah.

A (151:26)

And you say the reason people choose suicide isn't because they want to die, but because they don't understand how to alleviate their suffering. I didn't know how to end the internal torment I felt. But I also didn't want to die per se. When I was in a suit. When in a suicidal state, many people's thoughts turn to how others might respond in the event of their demise. So what's this black freaking hole like for you?

C (151:51)

So I am at the time I'm doing in between Austin and Houston. At that point, I'm living on. I've, like, hit basically every veteran trope. Like, I don't have a job. You know, I've just gotten out of active duty. I'm home from Iraq. I'm like, I'm almost 30 at this point. And all I've known for, like, my 20s is like, I've gone to war, or I'm training to go to war, or I'm in war, and I'm like.

A (152:18)

Or you're throwing up lunchables and beer in college.

C (152:22)

That too. And so I. You know, it just seemed like every day was like some new battle is just another new war. And I'm just. You know, I'm divorced now. My wife has left. She's already found somebody new. She seems happy. I'm miserable. I'm like, what am I doing with my life? This is the worst. Like, even the person that loves me the most or supposed to love me the most doesn't love me. And I'm like, maybe I should just off myself. And then. Then she'll know how bad I really. So I'm. I'm, like, sitting. Like, it literally looks like a veteran stereotype. I'm sitting on the edge of this bed with this bottle, and I'm just drinking, you know, and I'm like, I should do it. I'm not going to be a pussy about it. I'm going to do it.

A (153:07)

Freaking awful.

C (153:08)

And what. I had this, like, lightning bolt epiphany where I'm like, if I take myself out tonight, then I just gave the insurgency and Al Qaeda and the Taliban the win that they've always wanted. They took me out from home when things are comfortable, and. And I realized, like, I'm not going to let those guys win. I'm not gonna let them win. And, like, you know, when I dove into my coursework in mental health, like you, you really realize, like, suicide is a state of ambivalence. Part of you wants to live, and part of you wants to die. And usually when people tell you they're suicidal, that's the stronger part of them that's telling you that because they actually want to live. And I make it a point to point that out to other vets. Like, if you told somebody you actually do want to live, because otherwise you would have just done it. And so, you know, like I said, going back to human nature, flee or fight, and that's what your body is wrestling between. Do I flee or do I fly? Do I exit this world or do I keep going? And the reason people choose actual suicide, and I Learned this under Dr. Kent Corso, who is one of the leading suicidologists in the United States, he's an Air Force veteran, is they choose it because they don't know how to end the internal torment and suffering that they feel. If they did, they wouldn't choose that. And so part of that is recognizing, like, how do I take proactive steps forward to alleviate the suffering that I'm feeling, and how do I do that? And so that's when I had that kind of epiphany. I'm like, I'm not gonna let these cocksuckers win. I chose to live, but at the same time, like, I was still. I still had to deal with the after effects of that because otherwise I was gonna still feel that internal torment.

A (154:50)

How'd you know Bill?

C (154:52)

Bill is my friend from college, cuz.

A (154:54)

That'S who you link up with in Austin. Just to add some context here, that's who you're kind of hanging out with. He's kind of recognizing your downward spiral.

C (155:01)

Oh, yeah, big time.

A (155:03)

And finally he says, maybe we should go to church or something.

C (155:07)

Yeah, it's funny because he's an atheist. And I was like, that's really weird, man. You know, like my upbringing. And I'm like, you know, what's that gonna do for either one of us? And he's like, I don't know, maybe you can meet some nice Christian girl with, like, morals and values. I was like, that's what I need after a divorce, buddy. You know? But he. He just didn't know how to help. And, like, at first he was like.

A (155:28)

So that was like him throwing darts at a. Like, blind. At a dartboard. Like, hey, maybe we go to church.

C (155:33)

Yeah. Yeah. And he had. He had just gone through a rough breakup with his fiance. And it was like, I don't know, maybe I need some type of different spiritual direction or whatever. And I was kind of like, you know, because of my upbringing, I was antagonistic to it. But, you know, I told my parents. I was like, hey, I'm thinking about. And they encouraged me. And. And so we ended up going to a couple churches that really sucked. And I was like, this is. This is dumb. And then he was like, I heard about this church, like, for people like us that don't like church. And I was like, all right, we can give it a whirl, like, whatever. And that's. That's when I started meeting some people who, like, changed my life.

A (156:11)

That's when they played foo Fighters there. Yeah, yeah, the band, the freaking whatever. Got. What do you call a gospel band or a church band or whatever it is.

B (156:19)

They're playing Foo Fighters.

C (156:20)

The worship team played a Foo Fighter song. And then they connected it.

A (156:22)

And they connected it. Yeah.

C (156:24)

To the message that day. And I thought that that was really cool and an inventive way to like, get people who were not certain about spirituality to kind of go and check something out to where it reduced, like, the barrier.

A (156:38)

The barrier. Tantrum.

C (156:39)

Yeah.

A (156:41)

You end up going to an outreach at a bar, which is interesting to have a church outreach at a bar. What's that thing?

C (156:48)

That's kind of like a new thing, I guess. But, I mean, they weren't serving alcohol, but there's stuff now called, like, beer and hymns that a lot of places in local communities will do now where they'll have somebody, they'll sing hymns, and they'll drink beer. If you look at the history of, like, alcohol in the church, it's really actually fascinating because the church had initially, like, the Trappist monks started it as, like, a ministry to feed and clothe the poor. And that's where St. Arnold got big, because he was the patron saint of brewing. Because people back then didn't know, like, let me get into a weird history lesson. They. So a lot of the cauldron maids would cook dinner and then brew beer in the same vats. And what would happen is, like, they would get bacteria in the beer. People would get sick. That's where you get the term witches brew. They'd call them witches. They're like, oh, you got us sick. Well, the monks came in, and they believed that they had to purify everything for God, and so they sterilized everything. And so nobody ever got sick drinking the beer. And so that's where St. Arnold came up with the whole thing. It was actually safer back then to drink beer than it was water because of the contamination. And so St. Arnold's catchphrase, the patron saint of brewers, is don't drink the water, drink the beer. So. So, yeah, it's kind of a. I mean, it's coming back. Prohibition did a weird thing to, like, the Christian church to where they were, like, equated it with, like, debauchery and craziness, even if you were practicing moderation and temperance. But. But, yeah. So I ended up going to this event that they do. They wanted to reach people like me. It was on 6th Street. You know, she's famous in Austin, and it was like this church at a bar thing. Where it was like for 20 and 30 somethings and. Yeah, and that's where I met a buddy of mine who, who changed my life.

A (158:29)

And that's Ryan. Ryan Jordan.

C (158:32)

Yeah. It's not his real name. Okay, but yeah, but.

A (158:35)

And he just like was able to communicate to you in a way that you really hadn't experienced before.

C (158:40)

Yeah, so he, he had. One of the things that I've discovered between I meet a lot of vets who say I don't feel comfortable telling my story to non vets. And I think most of us do want to tell our stories, but what happens is when you're dealing with that life and death stuff and you start to use the gallows humor and you're laughing about an insurgent's head exploding or you're running over this feral dog that's like trying to attack you or whatever, you start to, sometimes you'll smile and you'll laugh about that stuff because that's your mind protecting you. And what you can see in the body language of civilians a lot of times is they get uncomfortable. And we're really good at picking up on body language like military veterans, especially combat veterans. And so it communicates I am a monster to you, so therefore I'm going to shut up. And what they really need is a, is somebody who cares. And the thing that I remind them of is suffering is a universal language. We all go through it. Like you're just going to suffer in life. You're not immune to like what happens in this world. Sorry. And you know, for my, my buddy, his parents were hoarders growing up like so bad that like the TV show tried to do a thing like they had all these cats and like his dad was an alcoholic and his dad would just throw, like when a cat would die he would just throw newspaper over it and just like let the cat rot. So the house constantly smell like cat piss. He would never have his friends over. So he had this really complicated relationship with his, his dad who was an alcoholic who was driving him around, he's drunk and stuff and crashing into fields and, and then his mom was like codependent and then they just, and right as he was like kind of working stuff out with him, both of them died within three months of each other. And so he's left as like kind of, you know, this 20 something year old orphan now. And he doesn't know how to deal with any of that and it's affecting his marriage and he's, he's, you know, he's like, I have all this trauma from my upbringing, how do I deal with it? And gives me counseling. And so he's telling me like all these stories and I'm realizing, like, this is a guy who's brave and strong and is okay to own his past. Maybe it's okay for me to own mine. And like, I started like testing the waters with him a little bit, and he didn't act repulsed or. And he just. I remember I told him a story about these Iraqi police, like, interrogating this guy with like wires that they pulled from a lamp. And he didn't act repulsed or he just said, it sounds like you've had a rough go, man. He said, but I want to let you know I'm here for you.

B (161:19)

So.

C (161:19)

And I was like, all right, maybe. Maybe I can be a little bit more honest with this guy. And just kind of started out in that direction and he introduced me some other people. Yeah.

A (161:30)

Through that, you start reading, you start researching, you start gravitating towards, you know, the Christian message and eventually that's where you end up. And just to fast any great. You know, you do a great job in the book, at the book, so you can kind of follow that. That story. But, you know, one thing that you say in the book is most people wrongly believe that when you become a Christian, you never struggle or become super judgmental. Neither were true in my experience. Instead, struggles remained, but a deep well of growth, humility and grace started soaking into the crevices of my life. This process, however, was slow and painful. So I think it's. Those are really good, you know, points I think that you make, you know, where, oh, you become a Christian now everything is going to be hunky dory, shining rainbows.

C (162:20)

Yeah.

A (162:21)

Or, you know, people go, oh, Christians are super judgmental. And they're pointing their fingers at everyone else telling them how they're messed up and they're better. So that is not the case.

C (162:30)

Yeah, and it's tough. I mean, I think you see it a lot in society. Like, I don't even like to tell people that I'm a true. I just, I'm like, let my words and actions and deeds, you know, act a non verba. I want that to align with like the way one that I treat people, the way that I care for people. And like, I don't want to be one of those guys. That's just, you know, the worst thing you can do, I think, is like. Let me, Let me preface it this way. Have you ever heard like those Star wars nerds that Won't shut up about Star Wars. And you're like, just please shut up.

A (163:03)

Yeah, I do. I know some of them.

C (163:04)

Yeah.

A (163:05)

One of them is named Jason Gardner.

C (163:08)

And you're like, I.

A (163:10)

He's not that bad.

C (163:11)

You're like, I don't want to hear about this. And, like, yet you have, like, kind of the same thing happen, like, within the Christian communities and elsewhere.

A (163:19)

Well, the jiu jitsu communities, the CrossFit community. Like, you name a community, and it's like, people get. Get wild with their freaking infection to the brain, and that's all they want to talk about, which is cool. They're passionate about it.

C (163:30)

Yeah.

A (163:31)

But if you're trying to influence someone and you bombard them, it's not going to be very. The chances are it might not be very effective.

C (163:38)

Right. And so for me, it was. It was just very countercultural to what I had experienced. And sadly, I think, like, you know, given recent events and everything else, like, a lot of people are like, man, Christians do not line up with, like, their. Their words or their values or anything. And I think it's because a lot of them are just kind of these nominal Christians at best, to where they're like, oh, I kind of know a little bit about my faith, but, like, they really don't. Like. One of the funniest things, I think, for me was I went. So I was on Van's Warped Tour for six years, like, working in a mental health nonprofit that was started by Jake Lerz. He's the lead singer of August Burns Red. And he was. He was my boss and everything. And I would meet these people, and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm a Christian. I was like. I was like, cool, like, when did you become a Christian? They're like, oh, well, I grew up in Texas. And I'm like, what does that mean? Like, the hell does that mean? Like, that has nothing to do with, like, what you believe. And so I started asking questions, like, there's this basic tenet of the Christian faith, and it's called the gospel. And they couldn't explain that. And I'm like, if you can't explain the core tenet of, like, what you're supposed to believe, like, with accurate precision, you're probably not really that person. It would be like me being like, oh, yeah, I'm a jiu jitsu practitioner, but I don't know what the hell an oma plata is, or, you know, and stuff like that, or a triangle. And you're just like, I do all this stuff, but I don't know any of. And they're doing the same things. And so it's very difficult. And I think a large problem is this is. I love what David Foster Wallace says. He's an author, and he said everybody worships something. It just depends on what you worship. Like, that can be your ego or your beauty or whatever it is, but everybody does something. And I think in our day and age, a lot of the issues come down to people are just worshiping things that are not bringing about value or compassion or generosity or anything, or helping their fellow man. And instead it's creating us versus them mentalities. And they're using that under the guise of faith. And it just. Instead of creating people that really actively live their faith, it creates people that are very repulsed by it. You know, so that's just me spitting just my own random crap. As far as what I think.

A (166:01)

That's good to hear that perspective. You end up getting married to Emily.

C (166:07)

Yep. Married 14 years now.

A (166:09)

There you go. This was really. Well. Well, I'm just going to read it. You had an old trunk that you had with a bunch of, you know, war memorabilia and stuff that you had in it, and Father Rocheford had given you, like, a Bible and, you know, a little card. And so the handwritten card, there's a phone number on it. So you, you know, you give a call and someone answers the other end. Hi, I'm trying to reach Father Dennis Rochford, I said. We served in Iraq together. He's instrumental in my faith journey. He asked me to contact him several years ago, and I dropped the ball. The silence on the other end of the phone made me think the call had disconnected. Hello, sir? The voice was solemn. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you, but Father Rochefort passed away some time ago. My heart sank. How? I asked. She replied, it's best if we just remember the departed as they were. How? I pressed again, this time through gritted teeth. Suicide. I would discover that on the morning of September 10, 2009, Dennis Rocheford had donned a bright yellow US Navy T shirt, combat boots, and jeans. He drove from his home in Narragansett, Rhode island, to the Newport Bridge, where he parked his car in the center lane. Then he walked to the rail, stood for a moment, and jumped over the side. He is pronounced dead at the scene, joining the other 22 veterans who kill themselves daily. Emily would find me in my office crying when she got home. That was not the. That was not the thing I expected. You know, when I When I was reading that section at all, you know, I thought we were heading for a nice reunion. Did you ever get any. Any other amplifying information on that situation?

C (168:04)

No. You know, and I wanted to be respectful to his family as well, too. I just. I put in there directly, like, what came from news sources. But, you know, General McFarland and I have talked about this because he's Catholic, you know, and he. He had brought in Dennis Rochford. And, you know, we were on the phone not too long ago, the general and I, and just talking about him, and I said, you know, here's a guy who lived through Vietnam. He's one of six out of 150 to live. And he tells me he becomes a priest because, you know, he promised God that, like, you know, if I make it out of this alive, I'll give my life in service to you. And he survives. And, you know, it's interesting, he told me. He's like, I almost picked a girl, though. And so he, like, he was wrestling through that before he became a priest. And then he goes back to war, you know, and he's doing Afghanistan and Iraq, and he is handling all the deaths for Al Anbar province. So we're talking tq. We're talking hit, you know, all the areas for Ambar. So he's constantly doing last rites for. For Catholic soldiers, and he's constantly checking in on everybody else. Me, you know, making sure that my spiritual health is good and that I'm doing okay and with everything that I'm dealing with overseas, and nobody checks in on him. And he was. He was a lifelong alcoholic. That's why he had the. He was on and off the wagon, and just. It eventually got to him. He was so busy caring for everybody else, nobody took the time to care for him. And that. And that's the danger of our healers. They got it. You got to have somebody that you're checking in with, somebody that's checking in on your soul, making sure that you're okay. And, you know, I bring that up in the book. Like, one of the things that I had to realize for me is war is a spiritual experience. I love what Carl Marlantis talks about and what it's like to go to war. And, you know, we like to think. Think that it's not, but it's like playing God, you know? And I think Dennis really kind of realized that you have the power to protect life or you have the power to take it away. And he had done both, you know, in Vietnam, taking life away and now as a chaplain, protecting it. And then, you know, most of us think we know what happens when we die, like myself included. But there's no like conformative consensus. That's why we call it the Great Unknown. And so when you point an M4 carbine rifle at a man and you pull the trigger, you're going to send him to the great unknown. There's something spiritual about that. And so Dennis and like I had to reconcile all of that with, with everything. And I think for, for Dennis Rochford, like he had seen the best and the worst and just didn't have anybody to help him on his, his spiritual journey too. And it eventually led to a suicide.

A (171:06)

Yeah, you got the, the following chapters. When Everything Means Nothing is the name of the. Which I guess is a song by Fit For King.

C (171:16)

Yeah, right. Old Ryan Kirby, buddy of mine, you know it.

A (171:22)

And, and you tie that into, you know, again, going on the same threats, the same line of thought. You know, when everything means nothing, you, you start talking about, you know, the, the movie Rambo and that, that soliloquy that Rambo, that John J. Rambo goes on in the end talking about how he could fly gunships and drive tanks and operate million dollars equipment. But you know, here I got nothing. You know, we all, we all know that line very well because he can't hold a job anymore. And you know, that's, that's the thing that people have to watch out for. I know. I always tell people like, you got to find a new mission. You have to find a new mission. You can't go from having the like the most honorable job and a very focused mission to nothing. It doesn't work.

C (172:17)

Science will back you up on that one too. There's a 2012 study by Gibbons and clinic colleagues and they studied military veterans. And regardless of whether you are a combat veteran or you are a non combat veteran, they found that if you don't find a new unit, a new tribe, a new mission or a faith affiliation, you will struggle the rest of your life.

A (172:38)

Yeah, I'm going to close out the book. And again, you know, I've read probably 4% of the 3% of the book. The book is just awesome. I've skipped over all kinds of details. Get the book is there, there's an audiobook too, right?

C (172:52)

Yeah, yeah, there's Bradford Hastings does it. He's an award winning voice actor who's done like Marvel and Star wars and stuff.

A (172:59)

So, so there you go. If you don't have the time to read the book, get the audio book. But get it. It's. It's just. Is it. You can see, you can see from the stuff I've read today, there's so much more depth to it. But I'm going to close out with this. While in Afghanistan, I wasn't afraid to die, but I was. Was afraid of dying like a coward. As strange as this may sound. Afghanistan and Iraq and readjusting to civilian life is where my cowardice had to go to die. That's the battle I fought in writing this book. Do I succumb to cowardice and make the story pretty where I'm some war hero or do I tell the truth? Will my faith community accept me having told war stories true to form? Or will the language and violence be a bridge too far? What will my friends and family think after having asked for years, what was it like to go to war? The coward in me wants to stay safe. But as with anything that brings about purpose and meaning, a coward has to die. So there you go, man. Thank you for writing the book. Book came out in 2022. Are you, are you still writing? I know you guys have, you and Scott have the, the media company, the book company. What's it called again?

C (174:25)

Solid Copy.

A (174:26)

Solid Copy Media. So you have that. Are you, are you still writing? Yeah, I know you. So you, you write for Medium, right? Yeah, or that's a website type thing.

C (174:34)

Yeah. And they pay me there, so it's kind of nice. But yeah, after I wrote this, my publisher came to me and they said, hey, we're not actually used to having people that know how to write. You should actually consider getting into fiction. And so I have always wanted, like when I got my agent and the publishing deal and everything, I wanted to originally write like science fiction and fantasy. Like, I love science fiction and fantasy. One of my favorite book series is Red Rising by Pierce Brown. He does a really great job of talking about the dilemmas that soldiers go through because he's interviewed a bunch of them. You know, Lord of the Rings, stuff like that. I've always wanted to write epic fantasy and epic sci fi, so that's what I'm working on now.

A (175:17)

Check. Do you find it therapeutic?

C (175:21)

Yeah, absolutely.

A (175:23)

Was writing this book therapeutic? Did it feel like it got some stuff off your chest, like going to confession of some kind?

C (175:29)

And like it was wild. Like I would write part of it at this veteran owned brewery in Colorado Springs called Brass Brewing. And they've since sold the company, but the owner, Woody, is a, is a buddy of mine and he was A Ramadi vet. And so I was like, I'm gonna write. I'm gonna write here.

A (175:46)

That's awesome.

C (175:46)

In this. In this brewery. And so he would see me sometimes, like crying in there because I'm like trying to write on my keyboard and I'm just like, this is messing me up, man. Like, you know, when people are dying and stuff like that, it's just. It's tough. It was tough to write, but it was, it was extremely therapeutic in so many ways. And I think that's why it's beneficial for a lot of these veterans. Like, they may not be able to talk about it, but they might be able to put it down on paper and have somebody else hear that story. And I didn't talk about war at all until 2016. And I happened to write this, this viral article, and my editor at Medium came to me and I was having a little bit of writer's block and was like, hey, what do you guys want me to write on next? And they go, oh, man, we love your war stuff. And like, this is pretty kind of left leaning publication. And I was like, you guys like my war stuff? That's weird. I was like, that was a one off. I don't. I don't write or I don't talk about that stuff. And she said, well, that's a travesty. And I said, well, why is that? And she said, less than 1% of you have served in the longest running wars in US History. She goes, you're a small microcosm. And she said, we are losing all the stories that we need to hear from veterans and how to avoid war just in general, because I'm sure you want peace. And I was like, yeah, of course. She said, we're losing all the important lessons that we could learn from veterans to the annals of history. And it's a travesty that you guys won't even talk about it. And so it really changed my perspective. And so I started writing and I got better and honing my craft. And then that eventually led to the book. And then I just. I enjoy writing, you know.

A (177:21)

So you're still writing. You got the graphic design.

C (177:24)

I do graphic design and web development. I'm designing a ton of websites right now for people doing keynote speaking. I was in Kansas last week at a gala fundraiser as their keynote. I'm going back out to Kansas, a couple other places. So I do speaking engagement.

A (177:40)

What are you speaking about?

C (177:41)

I do business just like you like extreme ownership.

A (177:44)

Right on.

C (177:45)

So I'm doing like a major firefighters Conference here pretty soon. Talking about leadership, like, under fire and stuff. I do. I talk about, you know, business and leading in business. I talk mental health is a big one. And then. And then veterans, too. Like, what do you need to know about the veterans that you hire? And, like, what are the best practices? How can you empower them in your businesses and communities? And then. And then spiritual things as well, too, for the people that are interested.

A (178:12)

So you got that going on on a day to day basis. I know you got like a variety of mental health certifications. What's your involvement in that on, like a day to day scenario?

C (178:23)

So I've taken kind of a step back. It's more like speaking and using my expertise now for, like, keynotes. But in my local area, I meet with veterans that are struggling because I want, you know, my friends go, okay, I know a guy who can probably help you. And then I just begin a mentorship relationship with them because I think that's really important. I had that mentorship relationship from Gonzo and other men in my life who empowered me to become who I was supposed to be. I could have stayed stuck and, you know, been another veteran number or trope or suicide or whatever. But I had people step into the fray when I needed it most, and I want to do the same for them.

A (179:01)

That's awesome. We got sidetracked because we were talking about karate, and then we went down the path of metal and freaking, you know, wearing baggy jeans in. In the 90s. But you trained, so you did Christian karate. That's where we got sidetracked.

C (179:20)

I moved over to. Yeah, it was just the. The instructors were Christian, so my parents were cool with it.

A (179:26)

My point in saying that was you were into martial arts, you were into Karate Kid too, and now thankfully, you are training jiu jitsu too.

C (179:35)

I am indeed. I am a spazzy white belt. I've got about a year and a couple months under my belt right now.

A (179:40)

Right on.

C (179:41)

I train at Warrior mma. My. My jiu jitsu coach right now is a woman named Natalie, and I'm gonna butcher her last name. It's like Saldeo. And she. She was just on Amazon for a fight for an MMA fight where she won, and she won by Armbar.

A (180:01)

We like that.

C (180:02)

Yeah. But I have my black belt in kyokushin. That's a style that, you know. George St. Pierre, gsp. Yep. Yeah.

A (180:11)

So kicking each other in the freaking legs.

C (180:13)

That's what we do. Like, and we punch to the body a lot, so we're big on pain. So it was a lot of bare fisted, full contact. But we would always spar with pads and whatnot. But once you're brown belt and above and competing, it sucks.

A (180:25)

Get some.

C (180:26)

Yeah.

A (180:27)

And then you. And then of course. Well, that's awesome. And then of course, like I said, you have. When you mentioned earlier, you got this solid copy media thing with Scott Housing and you're helping authors, teaching them how to write, teaching them about the publishing thing, representing them as agents as they take their books out to the publishing world. So that's awesome too. And I guess. Is that where we're at right now? Does that get us up to speed?

C (180:50)

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'm still involved in like the church world and stuff like that. And I speak there. I've got a great community of friends. You know, I got two kids now, they're both jiu jitsu practitioners.

A (181:04)

Warrior kids we like to call them.

C (181:06)

Yes, they are warrior kids. And then, you know, I moved to the mountains because, you know, that's what my grandfather did after World War II. And I find a lot of peace and solace in like the trees and the mountains. And then I just love skiing too.

A (181:20)

So there you go. Where do you ski at?

C (181:22)

Usually Breckenridge, because it's two hours from my house. So it's, it's just a quick, you know, if I get up at like 5:30, you can either first chair, first trucks.

A (181:30)

Let's go.

C (181:31)

Uh huh. Yeah.

A (181:33)

Where'd you learn how to ski?

C (181:34)

So my grandfather. Okay, so this, this is the fun part. Do you remember like how in World War II, like the, all the officers had like, like white glove servers and everything? It was kind of more of an aristocratic thing. So because my, my grandfather was an officer, we grew up like, I mean he was great. We couldn't put our elbows on the table otherwise he would pick them up and slam it down and he'd be like, hey, we don't act uncouth here.

A (181:58)

Like, so we was an officer and a gentleman.

C (182:00)

Officer and a gentleman. So growing up, I spent all my summers in Greeley, Colorado. He was in the cattle industry. That's why Greeley smells like cow manure. So we would spend our summers there and we were required. And then in the springtime we'd go skiing. But we were required growing up to know how to golf and play tennis because that's what gentlemen did. We skied golf.

A (182:23)

That's where the skiing came in. So it was skiing golf.

C (182:25)

So yeah, so he, he required that we all learned how to ski too. Me and my brother Shaq.

A (182:30)

Right on. Well, awesome. Anything else?

C (182:33)

Anything else? Not that I can think of. Off the top of my head. I'd.

A (182:39)

Okay, so. So if people looking for you, you are solidcopymedia.com then you have Benjamin.

C (182:47)

Yeah, they can literally. You can Google my name just like you can Google yours and everything that pops up is me.

A (182:53)

The Medium thing. How often do you write for Medium? Still, to me it's benjaminsledge. Medium dot com.

C (182:59)

Yeah, I think it's medium dot com backslash, Benjamin Sledge, something like that. But anyways, if you just Google my name, like the Medium profile. Yeah, it depends. Like, you know, sometimes I'll get on a writing spree. I've just been so busy recently that I haven't had a chance. The last one I wrote about was I read this article about how, like these billionaires were building bunkers and they were wondering how that they could keep control over their security teams, like these tier one guys. And I was like, yeah, that'll never happen. I was like, if you're insulating for the rest of the world and the apocalypse, those guys are going to kill you immediately.

A (183:38)

Yeah, you're dead, man.

C (183:40)

So, yeah, I was like, the ultra rich are not gonna survive the apocalypse. Good luck, you know, so it's just I take hot topics of the time and people like my stuff on geopolitics, they like my stuff on, you know, religion and just trying to be a very nuanced writer. I feel that so many people have gotten into political tribalism that I wanna take a very nuanced view to where people go. Can go. That was good and I appreciated that take as opposed to inflaming culture wars and things like that, where someone can listen and go.

A (184:10)

That makes sense to me as a human being.

C (184:12)

Right. Which like, same thing for you. When I listened to the declared hostile thing, I was like, I can listen to that as a human being and relate to that. And like, so many people are just trained by algorithms and stuff now that if and bots like China people, China and Russia are running information campaigns on you, Most of the people you think you're arguing with in the comments are just bots. That's what it is. You think you are, but it's just trolls. And so I think that that, like, the more that we have people kind of step into those spaces and. And, you know, kind of be a salve as opposed to like instigating. That's really what I want to do as far as like, any of my Hot takes and writing. I want people to go, whether, what's. Whatever side of the aisle they land on. Go. That was good. And I can appreciate that.

A (185:00)

Right on. And then you're on Instagram and Twitter. X.

C (185:04)

Sort of.

A (185:05)

Benjamin C. Sledge.

C (185:06)

Sort of.

A (185:07)

Kind of, yeah.

C (185:08)

Like sometimes I get on there and I'll post some stuff.

A (185:11)

Well, one thing that you will be at is the January 16th and 17th, 2026 ratireunion20.com I absolutely will. And if you were listening and you were in Ramadan, then please show up. And if you knew someone that was in Ramadi with the ready first, please let them know because we want to see you all there.

C (185:30)

Yeah, the other thing too, that I'll tell you, if you sign up, like if you can't make it because of the funds, please let us know. Like contact us on the website. Number one, we're happy to cover your registrations, things, things like that. But also like, if you sign up, part of what you're paying for is you're going to get your very own challenge coin, which we already have developed and they're in print right now. They look awesome. You're going to get your own hat and you're going to get a T shirt too. So it helps cover the cost of like all the swag that you're going to get there as well.

A (186:00)

So there you go. Sign up. Awesome. Echo. Charles, you got any questions?

B (186:04)

Yeah, rewind real quick. Remember when you said your friend kind of was the one that suggested kind of randomly to go to church, to go to this church? What was his name again?

C (186:13)

Bill.

B (186:13)

Okay, whatever happened to him? Because you kind of said he was kind of more of an atheistic dude. So it was kind of random coming from him.

C (186:20)

Yeah.

B (186:21)

Well, did he embrace the faith?

C (186:22)

Like, you know, not necessarily. He more into like he believes now that like there's a higher power in the universe and kind of stuff like that. We're still close. Like he, he ended up having to move to Tampa, Florida for work. And then I moved to Colorado. So we'll chat here and there. We just saw each other recently, sadly for a friend of ours funeral. So when I got back from Iraq, one of the other guys that helped me heal was this, this old Vietnam fighter pilot. He's a Warthog pilot. And prior to the Warthog, I can't remember what they were flying like a 37, something like that in Vietnam. And he, he was kind of one of the first to welcome me home. And we ended up, me and Bill and Him. His name was LA. We ended up having dinner every Sunday for 10 years. And so he just recently passed. He was in his 80s, and so we. We got to see each other again at the funeral.

B (187:15)

So that. That original dude, he. He was kind of like this messenger at the right place, right time, just for that moment.

C (187:23)

Yeah.

B (187:23)

Thing. Boom. Then you're on. On your way. You think Karate Kid 2 is better than Karate Kid 3?

C (187:31)

All right, so Karate Kid 2 is. Did you guys watch Cobra Kai? Tell me you watched Cobra Kai.

B (187:35)

Yeah, that. Until Terry Silver went to jail. Then I stopped.

C (187:38)

Dude, it ends well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (187:41)

Just phased out, though.

C (187:42)

Yeah, yeah. So I think Karate Kid 1 will forever be my favorite, just because it's iconic and you had that bullying aspect, and that was why I got into karate. I loved part two. Part three is weird because. Yeah, you have Terry Silver and the whole Cobra Kai. I don't know. It's kind of goofy sometimes in that.

B (188:03)

One, but in my opinion, Karate Kid 3 was way better than 1 and 2 put together.

C (188:07)

You're wrong.

B (188:08)

Sorry. I know you think I'd be wrong, but you'd be wrong about that.

A (188:13)

Well, wait till you see the Warrior Kid movie.

C (188:15)

Oh, that's right. You're coming out with that. That's gonna be incredible. Chris Pratt, right?

A (188:19)

Chris Platt. Chris Pratt plays Uncle Jake. Yeah.

C (188:22)

No way.

A (188:22)

It's. It's just. It's just. It's. It's gonna. It's gonna help out a lot of kids.

C (188:27)

Yeah. My brother gave me your book initially because my brother's, like, a huge fan of your stuff. So when he found out I was going on Jocko, he was like, no way. So he thought it was. He was like, have you read his book? And I was like, no, I'll read the Warrior Kid one. I was like, read Extreme Ownership, you.

A (188:41)

Know, but that's awesome, man. Right on. Right on. Anything else, Echo Charles? Any other movie, TV show debates you want to have?

B (188:47)

I will say this in closing. Terry Silver is the bad guy in Cry to Get three. It's the best bad guy ever created in cinema history.

A (188:57)

Dang.

C (188:58)

Really?

B (188:58)

Yes, sir. He is.

C (189:00)

For the 80s, maybe.

B (189:03)

No, no. I'm gonna leave it at that. Other than that. Really good to meet you, sir.

C (189:09)

It just rains on my parade. And he's like, bye.

A (189:12)

He's not gonna say much, but he's gonna drop a bomb when he does it. That's Echo Charles for you.

C (189:16)

Awesome.

A (189:17)

Ben and Eva, final thoughts.

C (189:20)

You know, if you're in the veteran space, like, I would like to remind you one, and I know we talked about some hard things today, that you are never alone and you have a community of brothers. And if any of this resonates with you, reach out to your brothers and your sisters in the armed forces. Check in on each other. I do that. I'm checking in on all my guys. I make sure that they are like, I've even met people. You don't know how much of a community you have, especially when you begin to talk about your time in service. I've met people. I met a distant cousin of mine named Duskin who oddly, his name's Duskin Sledge. And he was like, yo, we have, like the same story and we really do. And it's, it's just weird. And we have helped each other over because he was really struggling too when he first got home. And then over the years, years, he's just gotten better and better. He quit drinking. You know, he's, he's just. When you, when you help other people, when you help him take those proactive steps, especially if you're other vet, like, remember your warrior ethos. That's, that's what I want to close with. Remember that, you know, I'll never accept defeat and I'm never going to leave a fallen comrade behind. So let's, let's remember that, that we do not leave our own behind. So remember your brothers and sisters. Take care of each other. And, you know, if you're going to the Ramadi reunion, I'd love to see you there.

A (190:46)

That's awesome, man. Great words, great words to close with. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for your service in Afghanistan and Iraq. Thanks for everything you did for the country and thanks for what you're doing now to help out veterans. And what a great way to close, man. Thanks for coming out. Appreciate it.

C (191:00)

Thank you. Honored to be here.

A (191:03)

And with that, Ben Sledge has left the building. Pretty, pretty crazy journey Ben Sledge has been on. Definitely spent some time in a dark place, but he made it out and he's in a good spot now. It's a good lesson for everybody. Take care of your mind, take care of your spirit, take care of your body. And I'll tell you that those three things are very, you know, kind of connected. Yeah. And it's important that we. One thing that we can kind of factually do on a daily basis pretty easily, not pretty easily. Simple, not easy. Simple, not easy is the body part working out, running, training, getting after it in all manners, which means you're going to need some fuel. Check out jockerfuel.com and get what you need. Include including creatine. You know what I learned from you?

B (192:00)

Yes. What?

A (192:01)

Creatine plus hydrate.

B (192:03)

Yeah.

A (192:03)

Little morning rehydration scenario.

B (192:06)

Yeah.

A (192:08)

I'm seriously considering going upping the creatine dosage even more. I'm at 10 a day. 10 grams a day. Will you support me or no?

B (192:17)

I support. Yeah. So there's a lot of. I was thinking the exact same thing. There's a lot of hotness over the, the, the increasing dose of creatine for cognitive scenarios. So hey, I'm in agreement with it, you know, like how by now we all know that creatine is the one of the most studied supplements of all of them. See what I'm saying? So I don't know, feels reliable at the very least. Feels worth a try.

A (192:44)

Well, let's try it. I'm in. Check out jockerfield.com. get go. I'm two goes deep right now. I just had a moke during our little break, which was tasty, by the way. 30 grams of protein, like in 15 seconds, 18 seconds or something like that where you can sip it and enjoy it, you know, and you see like a person skip sipping on scotch.

B (193:04)

Sure.

A (193:04)

You know, seeing how it tastes. Tastes good. They, they relish that taste. I don't relish that taste. I think it tastes terrible. Alcohol to me tastes terrible.

B (193:12)

Oh, the scotch. Yeah, Scotch.

A (193:14)

You ever seen someone sipping tequila?

B (193:17)

Yes, I have.

A (193:18)

Even like when I smell a margarita.

B (193:20)

For real?

A (193:21)

Yeah, it's just freaking nasty.

B (193:22)

I understand.

A (193:23)

Do you love the taste of a margarita?

B (193:25)

Well, it depends on the margarita, but the answer is yes. On, on a good. Yeah, yeah. Yes, sir.

A (193:31)

Really?

B (193:32)

I will admit that. Yeah. Yeah.

A (193:33)

I think like in my mind it's hard for me to comprehend that you would like that, that taste.

C (193:39)

Yeah.

A (193:39)

Which is, you know, just the reality of the situation. My perspective, I mean.

B (193:43)

Yeah, look, I don't want to go into big thing, but you know, let's face it, what is taste going off.

A (193:52)

Script at the end of the day.

B (193:55)

It'S going to be the whole experience. You see what I'm saying? And, but, and I understand, like a big part of the experience is the association, but in my opinion, the margarita is way less of the quote unquote association and more about like what ingredients and all this other stuff. But hey, your point? I, I, I agree with your point.

A (194:12)

Well, I recommend you don't mix up a margarita. I recommend you mix up a molk. I recommend you mix up some greens, some Jocko greens, some Jocko hydrate. That's what I recommend. I don't recommend you mix up tequila and whatever sugars in a margarita. Like just bad across the board. Jockofuel.com check it out. Also check it out in any of the number of places you can get Walmart, Hy, Wawa, Meyer, Heb down in Teos. You guys know where you can get it. So check it out. Also. Originusa.com we just released some jeans. 100 cotton jeans. 88 bucks made in America 100. 100 cotton. 100 made in America cotton. 88 bucks for these jeans. So look what's been up. A goal to get a pair of American 100American made jeans under 100 bucks. Because you know how much they charge. You know how much one of these like other brands will charge for American made jeans? 400, $300. Yeah. Crazy.

B (195:18)

Wait, so the 88, that's not just a promotion then?

A (195:21)

No, that's the cost. Oh, I thought it was like that's how much they're. They, they. That's how much we are selling them.

B (195:26)

Yeah, yeah.

A (195:26)

That's the new 88 bucks. So. And you know what's kind of cool is you know this is like the old, this is like the old school pair of jeans you had when you were a kid. Because they're just cotton. There's no stretch to them. They're just comfortable old school freaking cotton jeans. 88 bucks. And we got everything else that you needed at Origin USA if you need some stretchy jeans. Slightly.

B (195:47)

Sure.

A (195:47)

They're not crazy.

B (195:47)

Yeah.

A (195:48)

It's not like a pair of what are the. Was my wife or leggings. You know what these are?

B (195:52)

I know what leggings.

A (195:53)

Stretchy.

B (195:54)

Yeah.

A (195:55)

Things. They're not those. But if you need those, get some Delta. Get some Delta jeans. So that's what we got for you. Origin USA 100% made in America. Boots, hoodies, whatever you need, you can get it. Go to originusa.com and support America and fight communism.

B (196:11)

Yeah.

A (196:12)

Fight slavery, support this great country. OriginUSA.com check it out.

B (196:18)

Yep, it's true. Also Jocko store.com is where you can get your shirts and hats and hoodies. Other stuff as well. Representing on the path is what I call it. Discipline equals freedom. Good.

A (196:30)

Standby notice. I kind of like not using this the full script because it's getting a little old. But you're just referring back to it.

B (196:37)

I'm just saying just in case people don't know.

A (196:39)

They let them know.

B (196:40)

No, no, no, no, no. Sometimes they don't know.

A (196:41)

I'll be quiet over here. You can go read and read your script.

B (196:44)

I'm just saying some things are not self evident.

A (196:46)

Okay?

B (196:46)

See what I'm saying? Check.

A (196:48)

Proceed.

B (196:48)

Get after it. Anyway, we're representing while we're on this path. Oh, rewind actually a little bit back.

A (196:53)

Wait, are we representing while we're on the path? Yeah.

B (196:55)

Yes, we are. So anyway, speaking of being on and off the path, if you're trying to lose body fat, do not drink margaritas, okay? Margaritas, pina coladas, lava flows, these types of things, they have the most calories and it's a lot too. A small one's like 1400 calories.

A (197:10)

What small one? What? What's so many? What's so many? Is it sugar?

B (197:14)

Yeah, sugar, the mix, all that stuff.

A (197:16)

1400 calories. That's a damn meal.

B (197:18)

Yeah. Oh, it's more than a meal. Yeah.

A (197:21)

Dang.

B (197:21)

So don't drink certain. You know how. You ever heard of the Cadillac? Cadillac margarita?

A (197:26)

Yeah.

B (197:26)

You heard of a Cadillac?

A (197:27)

No.

B (197:28)

Okay. It's like it's a deluxe margarita. Seems saying.

A (197:31)

With more sugar, more stuff, more sugar. Cream. Do they put whipped cream in a margarita or. No, no.

B (197:36)

Pina colada.

A (197:37)

Okay.

B (197:38)

For sure. Yeah, you got to get the deluxe one. If you're trying to go for that 1400 calories. But like I said, if to you're trying, trying to trim down, lose some body fat, you know, get into trying.

A (197:45)

To be productive and have a good life. Don't order a margarita.

B (197:48)

Yeah, probably not. That's not. That's not the direction. Anyway. Back to J store. You want to represent on the bath, some good stuff on their quality stuff. It's good. We go for the fit, which is a big deal. A lot of people told me this is my favorite shirt because it looks the best on me. It's a good fit. Anyway, side note, also the shirt locker, new design every month. People seem to like that one. Check that one out. So yes, go to Jocko store if you want to see what's in the shirt locker. Pasties. Then just go click on the shirt logger. You see the past design, it's good. People seem to like it. Subscription scenario, new design every month. It's all in Jocko store.

A (198:18)

Also books, obviously. Get the book where cowards go to Die by Benjamin Sledge. And then on top of that, you got Dave Burke's book. Need to lead. Order that stat. Echelonfront.com we have a leadership consultancy we've been around for almost a decade and a half. And we help companies, organizations and teams get aligned with their leadership. And when they do that, all problems get solved. Go to ashlonfront.com if you would like us to help us like us to help you with your company. And then of course, extreme ownership. If we can help you online, we will. And that is through extreme ownership.com it is a skill acquisition course, series of courses where you can learn the skill of chess? No. Of guitar playing? No. Of basketball? No. We will teach you none of those skills, but we'll teach you the most important skill in life and that is the skill of leadership. Go to extreme ownership.com if you want to learn that skill. And if you want to help service members active and retired, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee's got an amazing charity organization. Go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org and Jimmy May's organization beyondthebrotherhood.org also if you want to connect with us, you can check out Ben Sledge. He's on the interweb interwebs benjaminsledge.com he's also on Instagram and Twitter x sometimes at Benjamin csledge. And also you can see both of us if you were with the 1:1 ad in Ramadi, go to ramadireunion20.com January 16th and 17th, 2026. We will see you there. And if you want to check out Echo and I, we're on social media. Echoes Charles, I'm at Jocko Willink. You can also check out jocko.com just be careful because that place is mind rot and it'll kill you. So don't spend too much time there. Once again, thanks to Ben Sledge for joining us tonight. Thanks for what you did in Afghanistan, thanks for what you did in Ramadi, Iraq and thanks for what you continue to do today. Also thanks to our uniformed service members around the world with a specific salute to our reserve and National Guard units who step into harm's way when the call comes. Men like Ben and his brothers. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for stepping into harm's way here at home to protect us and everyone else out there. Take that lesson from Benjamin Sledge. It's tempting to take the easy route. It's tempting to run from the things you fear. The coward in us wants to stay safe. But as Ben points out in his book, with anything that brings about purpose and meaning a coward has to die. So go kill that coward. Everyone. That's all I've got for tonight. Until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.