Jocko Podcast 511 Summary

Between Firefights and Faith: Lessons From Ramadi to Recovery with Ben Sledge
Release Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink, with Echo Charles
Guest: Ben Sledge (veteran, author, mental health specialist)

Overview

This episode features former Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Sergeant Ben Sledge, author of Where Cowards Go to Die. Sledge shares his journey from a fraught childhood in the Bible Belt, through harrowing combat in Afghanistan and Iraq, to the challenges of returning home and healing from moral injury. The conversation weaves together stories of war, faith, trauma, leadership, and recovery—with a candor that honors both the darkness and the hope in these experiences.

Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins: Childhood, Compassion, and Rebellion

• Ben grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, as the son of a male nurse during the AIDS crisis, experiencing community fear and judgment, which shaped his compassion for the marginalized.

  • “Once people at our church found out my dad was treating homosexual men and women, they looked at him with disgust.” (06:06, Sledge)

• He recounts his upbringing in conservative, prosperity-gospel Christian culture and how metal music, goth fashion, and skepticism set him apart.

  • “If you played a record backwards you’d hear some hidden message—backmasking.” (10:59, Sledge)

• Memories of peer rejection and church hypocrisy, culminating in experiences with corrupt church leadership, crashed his youthful faith.

2. Enlisting: Family Legacy and the Call to Serve

• Inspired by military family history and the need for escape, Ben enlists before 9/11, initially in the Army Reserve Special Operations (Civil Affairs/PsyOps).
  • “When I turned 18, my opportunity came knocking.… On December 16, 1999, I raised my right hand, swore an oath.” (25:09, Sledge)

3. Boot Camp & Early Military Life

• Vivid tales of Army basic training, the loss of individuality for team cohesion (“Abandon self, embrace team” – 29:36, Jocko), and family pride at graduation.

4. 9/11 and the Shift to War

• Sledge’s college life is upended on 9/11; he’s called to duty soon after, the world rapidly shifting as he transitions to full-time military roles.

5. Afghanistan: War, Operations, and Moral Injury

• Deployed to Afghanistan, Ben undertakes daily outside-the-wire missions. He explains Civil Affairs as crucial for understanding local power dynamics, “winning hearts and minds,” and building trust—work that often puts them in great danger.

  • “What Civil Affairs does...you become a geopolitical expert...but then in the field, you start to understand the micro-political situation between tribes.” (36:09–53:20, Sledge)

• Sledge describes close calls with landmines, near-death experiences, and moments of moral compromise (using an interpreter to clear a field).

  • “You never know what you’re going to do in a situation where you think you are going to legitimately die.” (65:01, Sledge)

• Leadership lessons from his mentor “Gonzo,” who models vulnerability and courage.

  • “Courage is doing the right thing, even when you’re afraid.” (46:12, Gonzo via Sledge)

6. The Toll of War: Trauma, Death, and Dehumanization

• Facing casualties among friends and civilians. Sledge honestly discusses becoming emotionally numb, the use of dehumanizing language, and the cycle of violence.
  • “I began to become desensitized by all the death...It even translated over to the kids and I started being malicious to them.” (75:23, Sledge)

7. Returning Home: Downward Spirals and Intervention

• After injury and discharge, Sledge confronts survivor guilt (particularly over the death of his best friend Kyle), substance abuse, rage, and alienation.

  • “The war was not done with me.” (109:04, Sledge)
  • “You are either going to fight, flee, or freeze...I froze up.” (95:18, Sledge)

• An intervention by friends and family prompts him to seek counseling, beginning the long process of understanding PTSD versus moral injury.

8. Ramadi, Iraq: The “Meat Grinder” Era

• Sledge redeploys to Iraq, arriving in Ramadi as violence peaks. He describes relentless danger, the constant threat of IEDs, and his role mediating between military and civilians.

• He witnesses firsthand the strategic shift that becomes the “Anbar Awakening,” crediting leaders like Captain Travis Patriquin and the effectiveness of collaborative, culturally aware operations.

  • “Patrick Quinn’s death helped fuel the Anbar Awakening.” (124:35, Sledge)

• Harrowing ethical dilemmas: Sledge is ordered to shoot a child carrying munitions but refuses; his moral boundaries hold.

  • “Shoot her, you pussy…Don’t do this, she’s a child. Slowly, I removed my finger from the trigger.” (139:39, Sledge)

9. Loss & Recovery: Faith, Friendship, and Service

• After divorce and deep depression, Sledge contemplates suicide—ultimately rejecting it as “letting the bad guys win” and seeking support instead.

• A key friendship (with Bill) encourages him to explore church again; he gradually re-engages with faith, encountering new, more authentic Christian communities and mentors.

• Spiritual recovery is slow; Sledge highlights the danger of isolation (including for spiritual leaders like his chaplain, Fr. Dennis Rochford, who later dies by suicide), the reality of “moral injury,” and the vital necessity of mission after the military.

  • “If you don’t find a new unit, a new tribe, a new mission...you will struggle the rest of your life.” (172:17, Sledge)

10. Writing, Service, and Paying It Forward

• Writing Where Cowards Go to Die is both cathartic and terrifying; Sledge shares the power—and pain—of honest storytelling.

• He now devotes his career to mental health support, public speaking on leadership and trauma, working with veterans, and helping others tell their stories through Solid Copy Media, a company co-founded with fellow vet Scott Huesing.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Compassion and Ostracism

• “Once people at our church found out my dad was treating homosexual men and women, they looked at him with disgust...At one point my parents’ friends were having a vote on whether they could stay friends with them.”
  (06:06–08:27, Sledge)

On Moral Leadership

• “Courage is doing the right thing even when you’re afraid. Tomorrow we’re all going to get on that chopper together and we’re all going to be afraid, but we’re all going to make it home together.”
  (46:12, Gonzo to Sledge)

On Dehumanization

• “We did the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan. We called them hajis…The more you’re able to do that, the easier it is to kill another human being.”
  (74:23, Sledge)

On Survivor’s Guilt and Moral Injury

• “Moral injury is the psychological damage and shame that occurs when you have to do things that violate your sense of right and wrong.”
  (110:08, Sledge)

On the Challenge of Reintegration

• “You have to find a new unit, a new tribe, a new mission or a faith affiliation, or you will struggle for the rest of your life.”
  (172:17, Sledge)

On Mission and Community

• “When you help other people...especially if you’re a vet, remember your warrior ethos—that we do not leave our own behind.”
  (189:20, Sledge, closing thoughts)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:07] – Opening excerpt from Where Cowards Go to Die
• [06:00–08:20] – Sledge on childhood stigma and parental courage
• [25:09] – Enlisting in the Army
• [29:36] – “Abandon self, embrace team” – military training philosophy
• [36:09–53:20] – Civil Affairs explained; Afghanistan operations
• [65:01] – Minefield incident and moral compromise
• [74:23] – On dehumanization and its impact
• [109:04] – Return home; survivor guilt and mental health crash
• [113:00–120:31] – In Ramadi during the Anbar Awakening
• [139:39] – Child combatant ethical dilemma
• [151:26–154:50] – Suicidal period; choosing to survive
• [189:20] – Closing: advice for veterans about community and the path forward

Tone & Language

The conversation is frank, raw, and darkly humorous in places—punctuating pain and horror with soldierly camaraderie, irreverence, and hope. Both Jocko and Sledge share openly, using military jargon and vivid descriptions but always returning to themes of growth, accountability, and service.

For Listeners

Where Cowards Go to Die is recommended reading for those interested in the true cost of war, the inner battles of veterans, and the long road from injury to recovery. Sledge’s story doubles as a testament to honest leadership, the redemptive power of community, and the duty to care for others—both on and after the battlefield.

Links & Additional Info

• Ben Sledge: benjaminsledge.com | Instagram/Twitter: @BenjaminCSledge
• Book: Where Cowards Go to Die
• Veteran Resources: Check the episode’s final segment for support orgs and the upcoming Ramadi reunion (Jan 16–17, 2026)
• Ramadi Reunion: ramadireunion20.com

Summary created to honor the lived experience and hard-won insight of all those who served.