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515: Discipline, Detachment, and the Power of Going From "Why" to "What". W/ Dakota Meyer
02:58:48
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- [00:00]
A
This is Jocko, podcast number 515 with Echo, Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.
- [00:05]
B
Good evening.
- [00:07]
A
When I'm out performing firefighting duties, I don't hear the alarms and ask, why did this fire start? Who caused it? Why did it have to happen now when I was in the middle of dinner with my family? No. I act, I don my gear, climb into the engine, and immediately start to formulate a plan based on whatever problem I am told that I am headed into. The only questions I ask en route are solution based. I rely upon experience, preparedness and training rather than on anxiety and nerves. Instead of asking, why did this happen? I ask, what can I do? Or what is my role in preventing this problem from getting worse? This movement from why to, to what strips away our emotional thinking, eliminates hypotheticals, and empowers us with the flex, the ability to fix the problem rather than wait for it to snowball and become too big for us to handle. Using the what line of thinking is solution based, logical and proactive, whereas the why approach is emotional, abstract and inactive. If we have a problem and we're stuck on the why instead of the what, we are going to be behind the curve every single time. I don't get stuck on hypotheticals or the past. I go and I do. The more we deal with the real problems in absolutes, the more we can change. And that right there is an excerpt from a book called why to what? Written by Dakota Meyer. And if that name sounds familiar, it should. Dakota has been on this podcast before. We discussed his first book called into the Fire, about his time in Afghanistan, his brutal battle there, the battle in which Dakota performed the heroic actions for which he was awarded the Medal of Honor. We covered that on episode 115. We talked some more on episode 277, reflecting on the battle that continues after the war, finding the demons here at home, and finding peace. And Dakota has been back in the news recently because after a 15 year, 15 year break in service, on April 17, 2025, Dakota reenlisted into the United States Marine Corps Reserve, stating during his reenlistment that he still had, and I quote, more to give. And it's an honor to have one of my heroes and one of my friends back with us on the podcast to share his thoughts on service, leadership and life.
- [03:04]
C
Dakota, what's up, man?
- [03:06]
A
We're here. Just the usual, man. We've already been talking for a little over an hour before we decided to hit record. We had to get all the, all the Classified.
- [03:15]
C
Yeah.
- [03:15]
A
All the classified material out, expunged from the conversation. Yeah, man, back in the Marine Corps, you. You asked me if I could go to that, and I just unfortunately had something scheduled because, damn, I would have liked to be there. Although if they would have held out another Bible, I probably would have put my hand on it as well. I probably would have raised my right hand again as well if I saw your ass getting up there. Damn. 15 year break in service. What year did you get out?
- [03:41]
C
I got out in 2010.
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A
The same as me, bro.
- [03:44]
C
See, 2010 reenlist.
- [03:46]
A
Maybe we need to talk to SEC War and see what up we can.
- [03:49]
C
Two days.
- [03:51]
A
Yeah, cool. We got a bunch of stuff to talk about. I guess the themes. The themes start off by covering some of the stuff in this book, when this book. This book came out, what, a year ago?
- [04:04]
C
Yeah, it came out like, it came out like a year ago. You know, I. I wrote the book, self published it. I wanted to get my blueprint down of how I got to where I was at. I felt like I was finally in a place to be able to pass on some knowledge to other people on things they're struggling with, you know, And I finally felt like I was something to be proud of, that I could go out and then help people get there. You know, so many people are stuck at where I was stuck at probably 10 years ago. And how could I help put this blueprint in. In a book of really the most impactful thing that shifted everything for me and put me, Took me from being a victim to being in the driver's seat of controlling my own destiny. Right. And I talk about it in the book a lot, and the number one core piece to it was. Was shifting why. To what? You know, I spent so many years trying to figure out why my team died, why I went through that, why I didn't get them out of life, why I lived. All of those things were. Were these mindsets that kept this really, this powerless position. But then when I switched it and I switched it to, okay, well, what happened to my team? What happened that day? What can I do with this? What am I supposed to do with it? And ultimately, the most. The. The most. The question that. That hammered me the hardest was when I said, what would my team want me to do and what would they want me to live out for their lives that they gave? And I think that, you know, when I was walking around talking about ptsd, depression, anxiety, and every time I was not living up to that, I think the most unbecoming Thing I've ever done in my entire life was when I used to justify me not living a life worthy of their sacrifices, and I used to justify it by their deaths.
- [05:57]
A
Yeah. That's a paradox, huh?
- [06:00]
C
Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like in, you know, those, those bracelets I used to wear those bracelets, you remember? I had them on both wrists and they were just handcuffs of me going out and living the best life that I could live. Because every time I looked at him, I felt guilt. And that's not if any of us died. Like, all I was doing was dishonoring their deaths when I could be going out and using their deaths on the side of a mountain in Afghanistan and talking to people about it and living a life that people wanted to listen to. That, you know, and that was like, ultimately where this book came from, of how did I get to where I was at.
- [06:38]
A
Yeah, that's even. Even the, like, the protocol or the immediate action drill of when stuff's going sideways, instead of being like, why is this happening to me? Just like, what am I going to do about it? That just. That little protocol is a huge step up and will get you moving in the right direction. And it might not keep you moving in the right direction, but it'll get you moving in a direction. And moving a direction will at least give you some information here very quickly of whether it's the right direction or not. And if it's not, no big deal. You start moving back in the, you know, start moving in the right direction.
- [07:11]
C
Well, you start taking fire, right? Like, let's just break it down, you know, the most simple thing in life. I tell people all the time, gun fighting is so simple, because if it wasn't simple, Marines couldn't do it. You know what I mean? Like, here is. And you, you know, you. You tell me if I'm right or wrong. Gun fighting is literally this simple. People start shooting at you. You need to figure out where they're at, where you're at, and what you have to get them to stop doing what they're doing to you and your people. It's that simple. It's the most creative thing that you have on. On the planet. You know, it's a creative job. And. But the first thing that happens, if you're somewhere and you're getting shot at, what do they tell you to get off of.
- [07:51]
A
Get off the X.
- [07:52]
C
Get off the X, they say which direction?
- [07:53]
A
No.
- [07:54]
C
Nope. So just start moving, get off the X, and then start figuring it out and start breaking it down into Chunks, you know what I mean? And so, but. But what really gets in the way of us as humans is we lack emotional discipline. And I'll tell you what I think it. With a lot of service members getting out and where they struggle and they get hung up, I call it on the front side of the obstacle is we are so young, we're physically strong, we're mentally strong, but we are emotionally immature because I think what we don't do enough of is we don't exercise our emotions. What we do is suppress them, right? Because we are so mentally strong that we. What are emotions? Weakness. Don't feel those. Don't feel those. We do everything we can to not feel those, right? And I think what happens is then you get out, and then at some point these emotions get so big when so many things happen that then you can't control them and they start to control you. And while emotions are very powerful when they're anchored in logic, they're very dangerous when your logic is anchored in emotions. And I think that's what happens is we don't do a real good job at emotionally exercising us at a young age. And then you get out and now you've got these big emotions that we can't take away because that is what makes us human. And so I think that that's what ultimately I had to exercise out and to bounce it off. Logic, while I talk about it a lot is I wake up sometimes and I feel. I talk about the feelings, right? I get up in the mornings, I feel like I'm the man, but then logically, I have to look in the mirror and tell myself, I'm not the man. You know what I mean? And so, like, you know, and I think. I think that comes with wisdom, right? And it comes with learning. But I think that, you know, that's what I call your emotions are. They're not. They're not truth, they're feelings. Logic is truth. And. And they have to be able to support that truth. And I think, you know, that that's where I think that, like, I got hung up a lot of. But, you know, it became your identity.
- [10:11]
A
Yeah.
- [10:12]
C
The.
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A
One of the things when I talk about emotions, I talk about people is like. And this is. This is something that I learned when friends of mine were killed was you're not going to be able to control your emotions sometimes, which is really weird when you're an adult, because, you know, when you're a little kid, you have temperature and yell and scream, cry, and then people are like, hey, you can't do that. You have to control your emotions. You can't have a temper tantrum. You can't yell and scream. So you get to be 8 or 9 and you're like, okay, I'm not gonna cry anymore. Your dad's like, hey, we don't cry. And so you're like, okay, we're not crying. And so you learn to, like, suppress your emotions. And then what happens is something happens in the world where your emotions overwhelm you. And I think what scares people, what certainly made me very uncomfortable was just all of a sudden, out of nowhere, not being able to control my emotions, which I was very used to doing. So a little bit, it's like a tangential theme that what you're saying is, what you're saying is like, we suppress our emotions. We suppress our emotions. And I was like that, like, hey, nothing's going to ruffle my feathers. But then all of a sudden, like, you have friends get killed, and all of a sudden these emotions are coming that you can't control. And then, then you think, then what I think, people think is, there's something wrong with me. Oh, yeah, because I'm supposed to be able to control my emotions. And now I'm crying like a little baby in my car alone. What the hell is wrong with me? Because no one says, oh, yeah, Even when you're a grown ass man and you've been in the SEAL teams for 15 or 18 or 20 years, oh yeah, there's going to be some emotional things that happen where you're not going to have control anymore. And that's the way it is. And instead of being like, oh, there's something wrong with me. And I actually figured this out on the podcast with a guy named Tom Fife, who is in World War II, Korean Vietnam, got a Purple Heart in World War II, Korean Vietnam. And he got emotional. When he was talking about he's a battalion commander in Vietnam, he got emotional. He was talking about the soldiers that he lost. And when he got emotional after 60 years, I was like, oh, so here's a badass that was in World War II, Korea and Vietnam. And he's getting emotional. 60 years later, this is going to happen to me forever. And there's nothing wrong with it.
- [12:37]
C
No, it's actually. It's actually a good thing. Because emotions mean it's. Emotions, stress, all these things, they're all just different words, but they're the same thing. They just mean you care. People who don't get emotional don't care. People who don't stress, don't care. And so, like, you know, when you look at these things, they're very powerful. They're very normal. Like, but the more you feel them, the more you get used to them, right? It's like. Like going out and working out. The more physically or mentally, like, the more you've seen it. I mean, think about the first time you got shot at. You were in the red, right? And then after you've been shot at 10 or 15 times, you ain't in the red no more. It's like, yeah, okay, whatever, right? But the new guy comes and then he's in the red, but he's standing next to a guy who's been there 10 or 15 times and then helps him get through it the right way. And that's what we've been missing, is people helping lead people through the right way and how to deal with their emotions. Because let me tell you, what's happened is you've got everybody out there now. They're all identifying their trauma becomes like. Like, their identity. And so instead of people leading people through who are on the other side of it, you've got a bunch of people who haven't got through it, who are bonding over what they went through, their experience, and they're never getting through it. So imagine if. If, like, imagine if the SEAL teams only let the guys who didn't make it deal with the guys before they were going through the SEAL teams or going through buds, they'd never make it. And that's what we got out there right now, is you got a bunch of people who never got through it, not leading people through it, right? It's become like this ptsd, this depression, anxiety, this mental health issue that we've got going out there right now. It's. It's a. And I learned this in the fire service. Ultimately, where I learned so much about this, this. This aspect was in the fire service, watching these guys. You know, I. I used to think going over the trauma, because it was marketed, right, the trauma that we've seen as.
- [14:56]
A
As.
- [14:57]
C
As service members overseas, nobody could imagine, Nobody could imagine. I mean, I became a firefighter. And I gotta tell you something. The stuff these guys see makes. The stuff I seen in combat like a Mickey Mouse clubhouse. And these guys get up and do it every single day. And I would arguably say that what we seen overseas, it made sense. None of us went over there not knowing what we couldn't face. These first responders over here, they get on a rig and they go watch people who were driving to school in their communities. The next thing you know, they're having to cut the. I mean, it's like people like us, not in a war zone, and they go back and they do it again, and they do it again and like, and they deal with it, you know, and obviously there's a lot of PTSD out there, but there's a lot of them who've been doing it for 20, 30 years and they get through it. And so, like, I learned the most about it there. And I think what ultimately changed my mindset the most is I came home from a call, the CPR call, and it was. And it's such a weird call. It doesn't even make sense why it bothered me, but got there. It was a guy who. I'll never forget, it was in their house. I was like the first or second one there. The guy had collapsed, they were going to lunch. His wife was at the front door, they were going to lunch. They'd been excited. They lived in this nice house, and you could tell that they had kind of lived the American dream and work their asses off. And then they were at this house and like, they probably empty nesting. They were at that age, right? And they were kind of like gonna go to lunch. And you could tell she loved him so much. And he had gone to take a shower before they were going to lunch. He had took the day off and he had collapsed in the shower. And so, like, I ran in there, pulled him out of the shower and got him in the. The bedroom in there, it was a suite, and started doing CPR on him. And I'd done CPR tons of times before this. Like, it's just a routine. And I'll never forget, she, like, crawled up on the bed, like the foot of the bed. We were at the foot of the bed, like, doing it, and she like crawled up on the foot of the bed and was watching. And I wanted to bring this guy back so bad. And like, we did all of our rounds and, you know, obviously protocol, and you know, you hear the medics call, they say, you know, last round, it's a. It's a two minute round. And you know what that means.
- [17:28]
A
How many rounds is it going?
- [17:29]
C
Well, I mean, we had gone, so usually we go. The protocol is usually 45 minutes. And so, you know, every two minutes you do a pulse check. And so we, we were going at our. Our last. You hear them say last round. And it's like, it's like everybody knows that if you don't get a pulse, it's they're going to call it, you know, and they call it before you.
- [17:48]
A
Go to the hospital.
- [17:49]
C
Yeah. Where we're at. Yeah. So what we. We don't transport unless you get rosc, which is you get a pulse back. Right. You have to have a pulse back for a certain amount of time before you even transport them.
- [18:00]
A
Safer to keep working on them.
- [18:01]
C
Yeah. I mean, our medics, like these paramedics. If you said right now, Dakota, who do you want working on you if you go down? A doctor or a paramedic? I'm gonna pick a paramedic all day long. And so, yeah, I mean, with the technology they have, we work them there. Because what it does is if you get it to a hospital, you take up so many resources. Right. All the way there. And then the. There's a couple pieces. But. So we worked him, and I heard last round, and I wanted, like, gosh, you just want to pull so bad. And obviously we didn't get a pulse back. And so then you. You clean it up, and they obviously tell the family member. And, dude, she crawled up on this guy and she, like, cried and laid there with him until they came, you know, until the. The court, you know, the funeral homes comes and gets him. And I remember going home and, like, I went back and I walked in, took a shower, and I just. It was the first call that I'd left, and I just cried. Like, I cried in the shower for probably 45 minutes. I'm like, what the. Why am I doing this? And I realized that I had to shift my mind. And I thought about it, and, you know, everybody wants to be. And. And I thought about it in a way of, like, what it would an honor. Everybody wants to be. Everybody wants to be there when you're born. Everybody does. They're excited about it. Everybody wants to be there throughout all these days of your life, but not too many people want to be part of your death. And like, any chance that I get, what an honor for me to share that with that family. Those last moments, like, I had an opportunity to show her that there were people that don't even know them that are trying so hard to bring back. Obviously, the most important part of her, that we cared about her. There were people who didn't. We didn't even know each other, but she dialed three numbers, and there were people just like her who were willing to come and spend that worst moment of her life probably next to her, and then to spend the last moments of this guy's life with him and let him Know that he went out of this world with a bunch of people trying to keep him in it and doing everything that they could to make sure we got one last breath out of him and make sure that his heart pumped every beat that he could get out of every ounce of life. It's not a job that a lot of people want to do, and it's a hard job, but when you start, you twist it around like, what an honor. Like, what an honor that we get to be that. And it was like, that moment that, like, I realized that as bad as these things are, if you shift your mindset, it's really not the things that are happening to you. It's your mindset that you're going into them and you're leaving with. Of how you're looking at it. And that shifted everything for me from that moment on, like, I just. I took the weight off of my shoulders of that. It was on my responsibility to decide what happened. But what was my responsibility was to show up and make sure that while I was there that people knew that somebody cared about them. And that was my job.
- [21:40]
A
The idea that you're talking about, like, the ability to reframe something, that's. That's a skill that. Because it's really, really hard to do that. It's really, really hard to do that yourself from inside your own head. Like, you ever had a friend that's got, you know, some crazy girlfriend, and, like, it's so clear that what they need to do is get rid of that girl. And it's so clear, but they can't see it themselves. Or you got a friend that's, like, drinking all the time, and it's so crystal clear that that's ruining their lives. And it's so clear that what they need to do, change it and. But it's so hard to get someone to see that. So what you're talking about, what, you know, came to you that day. This, like, reframing of going from, like, oh, I'm in this terrible. I gotta watch this over and over again, this terrible thing to, like, oh, I actually get to participate and get to carry this person across the line and be with them and their family. Like, that is a. That is a very difficult thing to do for people. To be able to take something that's going on in their world and reframe it into something good. It's a skill. And if you can take a step back and you can detach, like when you're. When you're facing issues and you can take a Step back and be like, okay, well, let me reframe this. How? You know, for lack of a better way of saying it, how is this good? Like, how is this thing that's going on right now good? Because in most cases, when you reframe something, you go, yeah, okay, I'm going to benefit from this in some way. I'm going to help the world. I'm going to help people. I'm going to be tested, I'm going to get stronger, I'm going to get tougher, I'm going to get more experienced in life. Like, all those things are going to happen. It's going to suck.
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C
Yeah.
- [23:33]
A
But there's going to be good that comes out of it. And that. That ability to reframe is. Is really important. It's another, like, protocol to set aside for yourself. You know, this might be the protocol after you change the why to what? Because why to what is going to work right now. But then as you. Once you get home and now you've had whatever it is, whatever bad thing has unfolded on you, and now you go, okay, I did the why to what. I solved the problem, but here I am. Now it's like the next thing to go is reframe. Okay, where am I at?
- [24:07]
C
Yeah. And I do this through a process called the dash process. Right. So it's. It's. It's literally we are protocol driven people.
- [24:16]
A
Mm.
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C
Like, we are process, procedure, steps, like, all that structure. Right. Like, I mean, and that's why people. People perform better in that. That's why people have habits.
- [24:27]
A
Yeah. That's why when you parachute, you've got like, hey, this is what you do for a cutaway.
- [24:32]
C
Yeah.
- [24:32]
A
Arch, look, grab, look, grab, pull, pull, check, check. Like, I did that little rehearsal over and over again. I only did it once for real, but when I did it once for real, it was like second nature. And if I had to think.
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C
Yeah.
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A
You know what I mean? If I had to think.
- [24:46]
C
Yeah.
- [24:47]
A
I couldn't think at that moment. You have time to think. And if I tried to think, I would have been thinking like, ah, you know what I mean? Like, this sucks or something like that.
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C
Yeah.
- [24:56]
A
Instead it was like, oh, yeah, this parachute's not working. Okay, Arch, look, grab, look, grab, pull, pull, Check, check. New rig. Okay, check. And we have that with every, you know, fighter pilots they've got, you know, I was talking with Dave Burke, talking through the little protocols that they have. It's like, this is what you're doing. You're not thinking about it. You're Seeing something, and you're reacting to it, following the protocol. So, yes, you know, immediate action drills out in the field, contact front. We have a protocol that we're gonna follow. Like, we're gonna. We're gonna execute that protocol, and then there's gonna. By the way, the nice thing about the protocols is it gives you a baseline that you can then make deviations from because you don't have to worry about all the little things. The little things are solved. The big things are you can. You can make maneuvers. You can start to assess where the enemy is. You can assess whether you can take them or not. You can assess what the terrain, what you've got for training. Like, there's all these decisions that you can make. But the initial protocol is like, this is what we're doing.
- [25:47]
C
Yeah.
- [25:47]
A
Boom.
- [25:48]
C
Yeah. I mean, and you think so, you know, you think about it like, you know, we make over. There's some study out there that talks about how we make. A human being makes over 30,000 decisions a day. So majority of those are. Are. Are habits. They're autopilots. Right. I mean, a lot of those decisions are. And so, you know, how many of those things, though, still don't serve you, right? Like, at one point, they did, but they still don't. And so I think that what we don't do is we don't do an inventory enough as to. I call it intentional living. Right. Like, living and doing things with intentions, you know, And. And part of that comes down to. Is taking inventory and. And leading with questions. Leading with questions. And so I have a process that I call it, you know, this. It's the dash process. Decisions. You must make a decision. You have a decision without action is just an idea. Right. And then you have to have support, but not like you think. And then ultimately, if you do that intentionally and you do that enough, what does that turn into a habit? And what we have is. Is we have a lot of habits. And I'll give you one perfect example of a habit that crushes a lot of us is sleep. Right. So where did staying up late start? What started as a.
- [27:16]
A
Electric lights, I think. Right?
- [27:18]
C
Well, yeah, but think. But think about this. Like, in your. In your. In your ecosystem, staying up late used to be a privilege when you were a kid, right? Like, you wanted to do it on the weekends.
- [27:30]
A
Yep.
- [27:30]
C
So then you did that. And, like, nobody. No adult that has responsibilities, like staying up late doesn't serve them at all. There's nothing that happens late at night that they're doing that's serving or helping them or is worth their sleep, Right?
- [27:44]
A
Think about it. Oh, yeah, but I'm sure you heard this, like, hey, nothing good happens after midnight out in town.
- [27:50]
C
It's so true.
- [27:50]
A
Like, you're getting in trouble. That's what's happening. Your life is not getting better. When you got 14 beers in you and you're out in town after midnight, no good things are happening. Zero.
- [28:02]
C
None. No. Just ask Marines. No, I'm just kidding. But. But that decision or that that idea of staying up late meant that I was. It was. It started as a privilege or as a. As a reward.
- [28:14]
A
Oh, you. You mean you got psychologically programmed, that it was a good thing?
- [28:17]
C
Well, that. And then it became a habit. Oh, well, the older I get, the later my bedtime can be. And then, guess what happened is now people are staying up late and then they have to start getting up early. And it was just a habit that they never checked or never asked. Is this serving me? So I talk to people all the time. If you set an alarm to go to bed or to wake up in the mornings, you know, what do you think the most impactful thing on your day is? How much sleep you get. And so why don't we set an alarm of when we're going to bed to make sure that we get enough sleep to prepare for the next day? And reprogramming little habits like that. But how many of those. How many things do we do today? Because we've always done it. And where did that habit come from? And taking inventory on that. And so that's where I look at decisions like, hey, is this getting me closer to my goals or is it getting me further from it? And I realized this other piece that I talk about in there a lot, before you can get to any of those, is you have to know what you're trying to hit. And I realize this with my kids, right? Because like, the ultimate leadership of you and to decide if you're a good leader or not, because anybody can manage. There's a difference between those two. A manager and a leader. Anybody can manage. But. But can you lead? And if you want to watch and see how good of a leader you are, if you can't lead your kids, you can't lead anybody. And. And so what that means is, is for me, you know, Sailor came in one day and she was like this kid, so. And so she pushed me or I pushed her on the playground. She told me I was fat, and I pushed her on the playground. I was like, we. That's not justified to push her on the playground. And it's easy to run around and tell our kids all the time what they're doing wrong, which is what we do a lot. And I was like, I need to give her, like, some tool to be able to know what my intentions are, my expectations are of her. And I said, so both my daughters know now. I call it the box. It's called the box method. And so each side, four words at a minimum of what a Meyer is. A Meyer is respectful. A Meyer is kind, strong, and is a leader. That is the four outsides of the box. And every decision and action that they take in every situation better fit in the box. So instead of me just telling them, hey, you were wrong for that, I look at her and I go, okay, so. So and so said, you're fat. You pushing her. Is that strong? Is that kind? Is that respectful? Is that what leaders do? Like, what if everybody looks at you as a leader and then they just start shoving each other over stuff that they don't agree with? Somebody said, it's not good. Now I gave her a tool. What decision could you've made that fits in the box? Because we're not conditional Myers. We're going to always be Myers and represent the box no matter what everybody else does. Because there's a real fine line before we become them, and we can't do that. And so, you know, she comes back to me and she goes, well, I could have told her that if she does it again, I'm not going to be friends with her and I'm not going to hang out with her, and I'm going to just go hang out with somebody else. And I'm like, yeah, that's what leaders do. That's what being kind and respectful is. And so now I don't just tell my daughters where they're wrong. I give them something to shoot and strive for, no matter what. Even whether they see a kid that's walking by themselves and they don't know, you know, that kid doesn't seem like they have a friend, well, they better go over there and they better take action to go let that person know they matter. Right? Which is ultimately what matters to me. And so most people in this world today, they can tell you what they don't like and what they hate, but they can't even tell you what they're trying to achieve or what they're aiming at, because we become a society that we live off of. I call it emotional porn, right? And. And when you think about it, you know, you look at why, right? Reality TV negativity. You post something on the Internet. Like negativity draws it, right. Because it's like eating a donut. Like you eat that donut, eat that. Sugar high.
- [32:48]
A
Yeah. Short term.
- [32:49]
C
And guess what happened?
- [32:50]
A
Times crash.
- [32:51]
C
And it's why so many people have anxiety, depression. Because think about this. People come back from war. And I'm not trying to put them in the same category, so let me state this up front before everybody loses their shit. But people come back from war and because their dopamine rushes and these chemical balances from being this excitement they struggle with trying to find that sometimes. Well, what do you think happens when people have all this? What does negativity do? It raises your senses. It gives you the dump of this emotional tie. It gives you this, this dump of chemicals in your, in your body. Well then that's why they're watching reality tv. They're all negative. And guess what? Their conversations are negative. Everything's contagious. And so we've got to change that up. We've got to. And in the book, I talk about how there's this process of we state the problem, we discuss the solution, and then spend majority of our time on execution and re evaluation. But right now everybody just wants to sit here and complain about problems and just discuss that. And it's like, it's literally, it's literally like emotional porn.
- [34:00]
A
Yeah, well, it's so much easier to break something than it is to build something. And it kind of, it kind of feels a somewhat equivalent. Like, do you ever do demo before? Like on a construction site? Yeah, it kind of feels as good to destroy something like you're smashing a concrete wall with a sledgehammer. It feels pretty good. And you're do you're bringing something down. It kind of feels as good as building something. But building something takes skill and time and effort. Patience and patience. And it's so much easier to just go, I'd rather just break shit down all day. So instead of creating something, you're destroying something. And a lot of people fall into that trap. The intentionality. I've been, I've been joking about this lately. I, I've. I avoided the word intentionality and intention for a long time because it sounded like a new age yoga retreat word.
- [34:56]
C
Yeah.
- [34:57]
A
And. But then I was talking to a group probably about six months ago, and I trapped myself. I trapped myself in a corner and the only word I could use, the only word I could use was, I was like, you know, when you do Things you've just.
- [35:12]
C
You.
- [35:13]
A
No matter what's happening, you have to be intentional. And I, and I said it, and then I was like, okay, well, let's think about what that means. And then I explained to them what intentional means. It's something that we did in the military all the time. In fact, everything that we did in the military was supposed to be intentional. So what does that mean? That means we plan, we execute, and then we debrief. That's what being intentional is. You come up with a plan, then you go and execute the plan, and then you get done with the plan, and you go, okay, now we debrief. How well do we do executing the plan? That right there is how you do things intentionally as opposed to rolling into. Even if I'm going to have a converse. If you work, you work for me, and I got to go counsel you about something that didn't go right. I'm going to go, okay, here's what I do. I'm going to take ownership. I'm going to go, and here's my plan. I'm going to take ownership. I'm going to find out what else I can do to support him, and then I'm going to see if there's anything he needs right now. Okay, there's my plan. And then I go in. I'm like, dude, you screwed that project up. You know? Well, no, I failed at my plan debrief to myself, hey, you didn't take ownership of anything. You placed blame on him. Okay, here's what you got. So that's what we have to do. Plan, execute, debrief. That's. That's how we do thing. In. In intentionally, but in intentionally.
- [36:26]
C
100%. Every bit of that is the execution piece. But it doesn't matter if you don't have a clear objective. Yes, that's the difference. People are out there. People are definitely armchair quarterbacking. They're talking shit. They're. They're. They're doing all these things. They're doing the three you're talking about most of the time, but most of the time they're not doing it with a clear objective of what we're trying to achieve. You know, they come into the conversation and, and they don't like the, the number one question I have to ask when I'm trying to figure out the problem is, what are you. What are you trying to accomplish? Because if they can't state that, you know, when, when you talk about a leadership checklist, I call it the mirror. You know, I've. I'VE got it on my new, on my new sub stack. I actually just launched today the, the. The leadership series Leadership 001 and I talk about leadership to people ship, the evolution of leadership. Because leadership is like a formality. Like people have kind of boxed it into these like, you know, X, Y and Z. But, but really people ship is where is the application of leadership principles to the individual customized person into the contextual situation of what you're doing? Right. Leadership's not a hands off game. It's a. Leadership is, is a, is a, it's a contact sport and it changes and it's like these are tools. But what we forgot is, is that these tools, no matter what, are only as good as the person that's applying them.
- [38:01]
A
Yeah, it's, it's going back to. It's funny that you talk about what are you trying to accomplish because you actually have used with your kids commander's intent, decentralized command. And here's the parameters that we work with in. So you've given them the parameters, like, hey, here's this box that you're gonna draw and here's the words that keep you inside this box and you've got to go out and make your decision. So it's interesting you didn't say to your daughter, hey, next time that happens, this is what you do. You said, hey, this next time that happens, here's the parameters you're allowed to work within. Figure out a better solution.
- [38:38]
C
Yeah.
- [38:38]
A
And so then she's a lot. Just like when you were in the Marine Corps, you didn't get told, hey, take this particular piece of terrain right here. No, it's like, hey, we want to get fire superior over this zone. Okay, cool. Let me find a piece of terrain that works the best. Let me figure out how to make that happen. So that's decentralized command. That's, that's, that's setting your commander's intent of like, hey, this is who we are. And then here's the parameters. You're allowed to work with it. So those are, those are awesome. And then you know, when you talk about the way that different people respond to different leadership situations. You know, I wrote about this in the book Leadership Strategy and Tactics. I talked about woodworking and how when you're work like, hey, leadership is like woodworking in that you got a bunch of different tools that you can use, right? You got, you know, a saw, you got a chisel, you got sandpaper, you got a drill and all those are tools. And you got to learn how to use those tools, then you realize that there's different types of wood. And there's a piece of pine, which is real soft, and there's a piece of oak which is real hard. And then there's ipe, which is like super hard. And if you use the tools the same way, they're gonna react differently. So you got to learn not just what the tools are, but then you got to learn about the different pieces of wood. And then you realize that every single piece of wood is different. And this piece of pine over here has got a knot in it. And if I use that, you know, drill on that knot, it's going to react differently than another part of the wood. So it's. You're right. It's very. You have to learn the tools and you have to learn the materials that you're working with. And you have to recognize that, that the materials that you're working with, which are people, they're going to be different.
- [40:20]
C
Yeah. And you know, and you know, you see out there right now, you, you're seeing across the board, especially going back in the Marine Corps. I mean, I see it, I do a ton of speaking and stuff, but fire service as well, you know, But I keep, I'll tell you what, what's. What's really frustrating is, is, is I keep hearing this, you know, that next generation. And I'm like, so tired man of leaders blaming the fact that they suck at leading on the very people that they are trusted to lead. And I see it, I see it. And I'll tell you, like, coming back in these kids today, there's more potential in the entry level service member today than there's ever been that I've known. They're looking to be led. They're hungry to be led. I see a society of kids that are looking to be led. They're hungry to be led. And. But we've just got these conditional leaders and it's, it's, it's really.
- [41:23]
A
What do you mean by conditional leaders?
- [41:25]
C
You know, they, they only. They're more like managers, right? Like they, they, they, they hate like the number one thing that tells me they're a conditional leaders. Whenever they hate the word why, that's insane. Like when they're like, oh, you know, this is the Y generation. Like, why am I doing this? And they look at it and I, I get part of it of you.
- [41:49]
A
Actually hear people say that, oh, I, oh, I will occasionally. You know, I always make this joke that there's some people, there's some bosses. The last Question they want to hear in the world is, wait, why are we doing this? And their answer is, because I said so. And I always say that's the worst form of leadership. And it usually makes people laugh because, you know, I'll say, what do we say to our kids? Because I said so. That's not even the right answer with your kids. I'm here to tell you it's not even the right answer with your kids who. But they should respect me. I'm the dad. I pay for the rent, I pay for the food. They need to do what I say. Oh, let's see how that works out for you. I'm going to tell you right now, it doesn't work out for you. There's something called psychological reactance, which means we as human beings don't like to be told what to do. We don't like it. And so when you tell whether someone's 5 years old, 10 years old, 20 years old, or 50 years old, when you bark orders at them and you tell them what to do without telling them why, going to have a problem with it in most cases. And it's so interesting because, you know, you look at the Marine Corps and I've covered so many Marine Corps documents on here, and, you know, perfect obedience to orders. But that is all overridden by the fact that Marines are supposed to think. Soldiers are supposed to think like that's the way it's supposed to be. And if you're giving orders that are so specific, that allow no deviations, and you're removing the ability for your troopers to make decisions on their own, you're not being a good leader.
- [43:14]
C
So I'm going to toss this at you, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you something to think about on this. So let me tell you why this is happening right now. I think people were evolving at a rate that they weren't like, as knowledge was, right? So, like, I think that. That back when we were in, you know, go, 10, 15 years ago, before all this technology and all this stuff, really, you as a leader meant that you had, like, you can control the knowledge, the info. You could control the information to the people you were leading, right? And whether it was what was going to happen or the schedule or all this, right? You kind of had. You were the gatekeeper of that. And that was kind of your power to be able to lead. And what's happening today is. Is the reality is. Is in your experience, it was going along with that, right? So, like Your experience between, between your experience level of you being in and you getting to experience things and the information that you could be the gatekeeper of those two things left you in a absolute place of power to where you were absolutely needed. Today this generation is evolving so fast because they have so much, they have so much information at their fingertips that literally today somebody could enter in the military and know more about weapon systems and know more about your job than you do technically. And so it's made it trickier. And I think that we're back in our day to be a leader you had to be the expert in everything. Leadership has got to evolve to where I said people ship of no longer is that going to be the case. Now you have to be authentic, you have to be an influencer. That's what leadership is going to be today of those two aspects if you want to be effective as a leader and not as a manager. And so I think that that is a dynamic that's changed up. I mean I want you to think about this. What happens when you have to ask a team today that has all the information to go do the impossible that they don't know that they can look at the information, they could look at the statistics, the data of what the survivability is of this the enemy that they're going up against today. If you to be a leader today and what's going to be asked of you, it's got to. You've got to be like there's more asked of these leaders and you've got to be the best in the history of leadership. If you're going to truly be a leader and not a manager today to be able to out influence all this other information and to be able to still motivate them. And I think we got to talk about what the difference between managers and leaders are. Both of them are trying to get the same objective of getting somebody to do something they need them to do that is both of their roles. But why the person that you are leading does it decides of if you're a manager or leader. If the person only does it because they're scared of the consequences and because of whatever the organization power it has given you or laws or whatever, then that's a manager. If they do it and it won't hold up and it won't hold up because they'll out system you. If they do it because they understand why it's part of the overall arching objective and why it matters and why it's part of the bigger piece and they do it because they want to do it because they respect you and the organization, then that is what you are when you're a leader. And I think that this why thing, when people get asked why and they get frustrated, I think it's a missed opportunity for a leader, because anytime somebody ask why, it's another opportunity to sell the mission to them.
- [47:13]
A
Yeah. And. Or it's another opportunity to listen to what the troops have to say, because you can. Yeah, sure, there's a lot of access to information right now, but throughout the entire history of the military, there's always been troops on the front line that understand what's happening on the front lines better than the generals do. And so the generals that go, hold on a second. What's the feedback that we're getting right now that. That actually listen. And, you know, General Patton said, however many years ago it was, the leaders on the front line are always right. And that wasn't like 100% guarantee. But the. The mentality is, when you're in the front line, Dakota, and you call back to me and you. You request something or you inform me of something, my default shouldn't be, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's junior to me. Or he doesn't know what he's talking about. He hasn't been as long as me. My default should be, okay, he's giving me information I need to do my best to support whatever it is he's asking for or whatever he's telling me that's what I need to do. That's always been like that. And a failure of leadership is when they don't listen to the information. The people that on the front line had, I. E. The Vietnam War, where the people on the front line were like, hey, this doesn't seem to be working very well. Maybe we should try something else. Nope, just keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Do what we tell you to do from back here in Washington, D.C. and we lose. So, yeah, when people ask, why one of the things that scares people if. If I'm your boss and I say, hey, Dakota, here's what we're doing. You say, why are we doing it? And I explain it to you. And you say, but that doesn't make sense. I'm scared. I don't even want to open up that conversation instead of saying, hey, what do you mean, it doesn't make sense? And you say, well, listen, if we put all of our. If you've put all of our heavy weapons over here and we love, leave nothing over Here, if the enemy shifts, we're gonna be screwed with no heavy weapons on this side. And I go, huh, that's a good point. Let's. Let's. Let's. Let's put some heavy weapons over on the north end as well. And you say, cool. Got it, boss. And all of a sudden we're aligned, as opposed to me being like, no, you shut up and do what I told you to do. And now we've got one of our elements that has no heavy weapons with them, and when the enemy happens to turn in that direction, which we both know they will, they're gonna get overrun, and we aren't going to be able to support him. So listening to what the team has to say and truly listening to what they have to say and trying to incorporate what they're saying into the plan is how you should overcome that. And listen, the guys in Vietnam, the good leaders in Vietnam, from Hackworth. When you. When you read about what Hackworth says about the draftees in Vietnam, he didn't. He loved them. He loved them. When I had General Mukayama, who is a company commander for Hackworth in Vietnam, and I was like, well, what did you think of the draftees? He said, I didn't know which guys were draftees and which guys weren't. Think about that. So we all have this image in our mind of these hippies that were forced to join the army, and they've got a big peace sign on their helmets, and they don't want to do the job. And if they do the job, they might get killed doing it in a war they don't believe in. But the good leaders would make things happen. As a matter of fact, there's another good example of that in the Civil War at the battle of Gettysburg, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, he's moving into position on the line for the Union troops, and they deliver to him a bunch of deserters, like 50 deserters. Hey, you have to stand watch on these deserters so they can go to jail after this battle's over. And he ends up saying, well, what's going on? Why are you guys in trouble? Why are you guys. Why are you guys arrested? Why are you guys under arms right now? And they started talking to him saying, hey, listen, here's. Here's what contract we signed up for. We were told we'd be done in however many long. It was 12 months and our time was up and we got to go back to our homes. We got families and kids and farms and whatever. We got to go back to our homes. And they're telling us we got to stay, and that's not what we signed up for. And he's like, yeah, you know what? That doesn't make sense. I'll tell you what. If you guys want to fight with me, we need you. And if you guys will step up and fight, I'll bring this up the chain of command and we'll get this squared away. And like, something like 48 out of the 50 guys took arms and went and fought. These were guys that were being arrested and so totally didn't want to. You know, they were out. They were being arrested. And he changed their minds. And they went. And by the way. And then they did little round Top. You know what I mean? It's not like they rolled into some easy, you know, operation. They rolled into little round top. So listening to what people have to say, actually trying to figure out where they're coming from, trying to figure out where they're right, he's like, oh, yeah, you guys are right. You signed a contract with the US Government, and the US Government is now, like, revoking that contract. That's not cool. Cool, you guys, if you guys can help us out, we can move. We can make something happen. So listening to what people have to say, not trying to impose your will on them, he didn't put them at bayonet point and say, get on the line or I'm going to kill you. No, he listened to what they had to say. So those are really good examples of throughout history. Throughout history, the troops are going to know things that you don't know. If you listen to what they have to say, you might learn something.
- [52:18]
C
Yeah. And. And, you know, these things are. These things are simple. They're not complex. The more complex they get, it usually is assigned the more emotional you are to being right instead of being effective.
- [52:34]
B
Yeah.
- [52:34]
A
The more you're. The more your desire is on being right, the more your ego is in. Is.
- [52:39]
C
Is being checked 100%. Like. Like, if they give you another solution and they believe in that solution, why does it have to be your way? You've already got them sold on something. You know what I mean?
- [52:51]
A
That's another black belt move, as I always say. Like, how do you get someone to buy into the plan, let them come up with it, and how different is your plan going to be? You know, like, there's only so many ways to assault the target.
- [53:03]
C
But so, you know, you talk about, you know, you just brought decentralized comm. And I talk about this a lot in the military And I've seen it. It's a big difference in coming together. And I think this is something that's taken away this ability. Maybe not the ability, but it's taken away opportunities for knowledge to be gained. Is there, I don't know, there's decentralized command is a lot harder today than it used to be. And I'll tell you, I'll give you from a sergeant's, you know, at the sergeant level perspective, you know, used to, I had to figure things out because what would happen is we would show up to morning formation, I would come up to the company office after the staff NCOs met, they would let me know what needed to be executed that day, and I would leave and I would have to execute it because I wouldn't see them again until possibly that night at evening formation or maybe the.
- [53:55]
A
Next day or the next day.
- [53:57]
C
I couldn't just reach out and ask them. And what I see today is leadership. People are so unwilling to accept ownership and responsibility. It's like a responsibility hot potato. And they're doing it through these digital formations and then it ultimately turns around and looks like micromanaging. And so it's a very unique thing that I've seen and I was so not used to because of technology now and, and, and, and it is allowing people to outsource their leadership. Right, and so what do I mean by that? Well, number one is, is they're telling people, hey, you know, go Google this, look at it on YouTube. Hey, go ask your buddy on this on. Instead of getting people together and them taking the pride in teaching people how to do it. And then the other thing is, is passing off responsibility, what do they tell.
- [54:52]
A
Them to go watch on you YouTube?
- [54:53]
C
Oh, I mean, listen, how are you gonna set up your gear or how you're gonna do this, right? Like, I mean, just, just, I mean it's, it's a, it's, it's. Everything can be outsourced these days because there's so much information everywhere. Instead of us doing it together and talking about why we're doing this and passing down what we've learned. And one thing that I have seen is, is this responsibility, passing off, you know, our NCOs. I think probably one of the most unique thing about the. And I realized this when the Ukraine war kicked off with Russia. I think the unique thing about us is, and what makes our military so lethal is the decisions and capabilities of our NCOs and our small unit leadership.
- [55:31]
A
So where it's supposed to be when you look.
- [55:33]
C
I mean, we're watching generals get killed from Russia and you look, you know, so if we lose that, we've lost our secret sauce. A little bit of it. Right. And so today though, like, these guys are able to text, hey, First Sergeant, what do you think about this? And so what it's causing is, it's causing these NCOs, not. There's no teaching them because they're able to just ask the question up here. I always said, like, this was always the rule of thumb that I had as a. Once I became nco, which being in the Marine Corps, once you become an nco, like corporal, was the by far a bigger honor to me than ever getting a Medal of Honor. Right. Like, because of what it represented. You know, like, like I.
- [56:17]
A
You heard it here first. First. You heard it here first. Corporals get some.
- [56:21]
C
Yeah, I mean, nc. Being an A corporal or sergeant in the United States Marine Corps is a big deal.
- [56:26]
A
Yeah, it is.
- [56:27]
C
And, but, but them being able to text and, and, and what I. The rule of thumb I always had, when it was somebody higher ranked than me or it was an officer, which obviously high rank, I only ever asked him one question. Anything else? I didn't ask them, like, if they came to me and they said, hey, we need this done. Roger that. Anything else? I wasn't asking them how they wanted it done. When they wanted to show up, what they wanted us to wear. Like, these are my guys and you go through me. I do the executing. But I took ownership of my guys and I didn't just take ownership of the good whatever. Like they were mine. And, and I think one mindset we have to shift when we are in the leadership position is, is we're not in charge of people. We are responsible for people. We're responsible for their successes, their losses, their wins. We're. We're responsible for their actions. And, and for me, I think, like, I just had this, like, I loved my, my guys I was in charge of and I took offense to it. Like this was the level of leadership that I, I always tried to live to. I was offended if they called 911 before they called me because look, I was going to come give them solutions and 911 was going to clean up what was left. And so like, we've got to have leaders that are so unconditional that it's not about when we're, when we're getting paid. It's not about when we're appreciated. It's almost. And I go back to the parent thing. Imagine if you were only going to be a good father, when your kids appreciated you, when you had enough time, when you respected, when you felt like it, when it made sense, Imagine if that was the only time you were going to be a good father. It would never work. It's the same thing with being a leader. Once you get the position, you must always be that leader for that person in every aspect and every facet of their life. Because whatever organization you're part of, you have to understand you're leading. Not just an employee, you're leading a father or a mother, a son or a daughter. Your ability to impact generationally and the secondary and tertiary effects of how you lead them. But it starts with number one today. Example. You must be the example. The one thing I see different today about leadership than when I was in last time. Used to. There was two. Two forms of it. Do as I say, not as I do, or do as I do. The do as I say, not as I do is an absolute extinct path of leadership in today's generation. Because they're smart.
- [59:15]
A
Yeah, they won't. They. They'll be tracking you. But I refer to that a lot. Like when I was a young guy in the SEAL teams, new guy, I'd be watching, like if my platoon commander showed up four minutes late. Dude, I was tracking on that. If he didn't have a piece of gear with him, he's supposed to have, and someone had to go run back to the armory and grab some. I was tracking that. I noticed. I noticed all that stuff, my little log book, writing down these shortfalls. The thing that makes me nervous about what you're saying is, is if I can constantly. If you're my boss and I can constantly check back in with you and say, hey, how many. How many batteries should we bring for this mission? And then you tell me to say, how much water should I bring? And you tell me. And then you say, you know what. What. What frequency should we use on the radio? Like, if I'm having to ask you all those questions, you're really stunting my growth, my ability to grow. And when happens, I won't be in. I won't have been educated and trained to make decisions for myself. I'll only know how to go back. And as you pointed out, that's. That's. That's what decentralized command is not. Decentralized command is exactly what you said. Hey, Dakota. This is what I need done.
- [60:24]
C
Cool.
- [60:24]
A
Got anything else? Nope. That's it. Got it. When do you need it done by you know, 1600. Cool. Later.
- [60:30]
C
But it's on the leader that's getting asked a question to shove that back down instead of providing the solution. And that's.
- [60:38]
A
Don't be the easy button.
- [60:39]
C
That's what we're having right now. That's what it's like when your kids come to you and they're doing homework and you want to get done with the homework because you don't want to help them with it, and you just give them the answer. You know what I mean? Yeah.
- [60:53]
A
You're stealing from them.
- [60:54]
C
You're. You are stealing opportunities for them to get better.
- [60:58]
A
Yeah.
- [60:58]
C
And. But that's what I'm seeing the most out there. I call them digital formations. I call them digital formations.
- [61:04]
A
Well, there's, you know, I talk to young military guys now, and they'll be like, oh, yeah, we're. We're. We're heading up to this, this, you know, here in America. We're heading up to this place. I was like, oh, you know, what time are you guys leaving? And they're like, oh, I don't know, around this time? And I'm like, where are you guys stomping for fuel? Oh, I don't know. It's because in the old days, bro, you were getting in a convoy. Like, we didn't have. We had to have a loss of comms plan. We had to have muster points like, this is what time we're leaving. We're all leaving together. And nowadays it's like, oh, hey, we're running low on fuel. Comes the text, the text message thread so they don't have to plan and look, is that a big deal? It's not that big of a deal. But you get in that habit.
- [61:43]
C
Habits.
- [61:44]
A
Yeah, you get in that habit. What you were talking about earlier, what you're, you're, you're hurting your subordinate leadership by saying, hey, I'll text you when I need this, and I'll text you when we're gonna stop for fuel, and I'll text you when we're gonna get lunch. Yeah, I'll send a thread on that. Instead of saying, hey, here's where we got to get tomorrow, let me know the plan. And when you're subordinate says, we'll just text you. No, no, no, no, dude, this is. Come up with a plan. This is an opportunity to learn to lead, so go make it happen.
- [62:16]
C
Yeah, and we've got to get back to that, you know, and we've got to get back to the basics. Right? And I'm not talking about going back and and, and, you know, you know, we got to shoot iron sights, right? Like, Like, I think that's irrelevant in the whole sequence of all of it, right? As long as you have good positioning, right? You, you know, like, I hear all that. Like, all these kids don't even know how to. Like, they don't even know how to, you know, shoot iron sights anymore. Well, we didn't know how to. We didn't know how to saddle horses in case we lost all our Humvees either, you know, so. But, but, but what I will say is, is we have to get back to the basics of discipline, right? Of. Of how our uniform looks like, taking pride in that. It sounds kind of crazy, but it's like, look, nobody's ever died from an Irish pennant, but guys have died because they missed the snail trail, because attention to detail, you know, it's. It's all. You can't pick and choose where you're going to have discipline at and where you're not, where the basics are going to matter, where they're not. They either matter all the time or they don't matter at all. And, and we've got to get some of that back. Not just uniform. I don't want the uniform people to come at me and, you know, what an idiot, right? But, but what I'm saying is, is the leaders should be giving them clear expectations of what to meet. That keeps them constantly getting better. You know, me as. As when I was a corporal, I never talked. Spoke to a guy and didn't leave him with something to work on. Oh, yeah. You know, and it would be like, little small stuff, like, you know, hey, Corporal Meyer, if so. And so I'm like, yeah, yeah, go. Yeah, that, that, that sounds good. But also, like, you think those sleeves might be a little bit better? You know, I mean, like, it was always something of me just chipping around and, And I think, you know, the other. Other piece that I see a lot of is, is people want to be liked. And I think this has to do something with, like, the generation and, like, social media and kind of society where it's at right now. People want to be liked and they want to feel good and all this. I'm seeing that a lot. And. And I try to tell people, you know, it's like fraternization is a big thing inside the military. You know, I don't know if you talked to your NCOs when you were. I mean, I didn't. Like, there was no way I was hanging out with these guys because they were Always on my ass all the time.
- [64:40]
A
Yeah, the SEAL teams is different for sure.
- [64:42]
C
But. For sure different. Right, but, but for us, it's like majority of the NCOs like you, you, you avoided them because they were like, like, it's like, do you want to go hang out with your mom and dad? Like, if dad comes in, like you're shutting up, you saying as least amount as possible. And I think that one of the thing is leaders who are friends with the people they're leading is a big problem. It's like, do you know parents who are friends with their kids?
- [65:05]
A
I'm kind of friends with all my kids. Well, now I kind of always was.
- [65:09]
C
Well, so you got a good wife?
- [65:11]
A
I do have. I do have an awesome wife.
- [65:13]
C
But, but, but it. They, they respect you and there's a clear line.
- [65:18]
A
Well, so. So here's what we'd have to break down.
- [65:21]
C
Let's break it down. This is a good one.
- [65:23]
A
I've been breaking this one down for a while. For a while. I was telling people for a few years, like, hey, you know, have good relationships, build good relationships. But I realized people didn't really understand what that was. And so here's what I finally broke down a relationship to be. Trust, listen, respect, influence, and care. Trust, listen, respect, influence, and care. So it's easier to understand that when you look at the negative. If I don't trust you and you don't trust me, do we have a relationship? No. If I don't listen to you and you don't listen to me, do we have a relationship? No. If I don't treat you with respect and you don't treat me with respect, we have a relationship. No. If you have no influence over me and I have no influence over you, do we have relationship?
- [65:58]
C
No.
- [65:59]
A
And if you don't care about me and I don't care about you, do we have relationship? No. So it's easy to understand when you don't have those things, that's not a relationship. So when we do have those things, then it means we do have a relationship. And the stronger those things are, the better relationship we have. Now think about each one of those components. If you want to receive those things from someone, you got to give them to them. So if I want you to listen to me, how do I make that happen? I have to listen to you. If I want you to treat me with respect, how do I make that happen? I have to treat you with respect. I can't just demand respect, whether I'm your dad, your sergeant, Your platoon commander, if I say, hey, Sergeant Meyer, you better respect me, does that. It doesn't work.
- [66:51]
C
No, that's. That's managed.
- [66:52]
A
It doesn't work. If I so trust. Listen, respect, influence, care. If I want you to care about me, I got to care about you. If I want me to be able to influence you, I better allow you to influence me. And if I do these things, we're going to have a relationship and, by the way, will be friends.
- [67:12]
C
Yeah.
- [67:13]
A
And so for me, with my kids, and look, this was, you know, I. I got better at this as I got a little bit older, but, you know, when your kids are talking to you and it's really hard. It's really hard with your kids. What makes it so hard with your kids is, like, you know, 100%. Like, I'm not. I'm not being. I'm not being, like, facetious here. You actually know a hundred percent what is good for your kid and what is bad.
- [67:38]
C
Yes.
- [67:38]
A
You know it. 100%. So to listen to them and their stupid idea that, you know, is wrong. It takes so much humility to say, okay, if you. If you really want to. Whatever. You really want to eat that ice cream. Okay. Okay. You know, it's not good for them, but they really want to do it, and it hurts. Yeah. You know, okay, go ahead. No, go ahead and have the ice cream. And now you have to listen to them, like, they really want it for whatever reason. And you got to say, well, hey, do you know about what the. You know, that's not good for you. And if you keep eating ice cream all the time. Well, yeah, so that's what we have to do. We have to listen to people if we want them to listen to us. And, you know, all my kids, they all. I mean, I have a great relationship with all my kids. And by the way, this was the same thing in the. When I was in the military. Like, I had a great relationship. I had the same relationship with the admiral that I had with the new guy in a platoon. Like, they both. Like, I list. I listened to what my new guy had to say. I treat him with respect. I cared about him. I listened to my boss listen to the admiral, listen what he had to say, listen to my commanding officer, listen with it. And when I listen to them, guess what? They listen to me, too.
- [68:49]
C
Yeah. And I guess. But I. But I think, like, the listening piece is. I mean, that's just. That's basic human respect.
- [68:56]
A
Yes.
- [68:57]
C
Right.
- [68:57]
A
You would think so.
- [68:58]
C
But. But my, My. The friend thing, though. And Maybe I'm wrong, but your kids probably aren't inviting you to go hang out with them and their friends doing whatever they do for fun.
- [69:09]
A
Bro, I got some bad news for you.
- [69:11]
C
All the time.
- [69:12]
A
Not all the time, but also, like, hey, I don't.
- [69:16]
C
They know, but your kids are older.
- [69:18]
A
Yeah, they are older.
- [69:19]
C
Your kids are older. Right. They're not like 8, 9, 7, 8, 9.
- [69:23]
A
Your kids are definitely to go through a point where, I mean, like, where.
- [69:25]
C
You have to be.
- [69:26]
A
Yes.
- [69:27]
C
The. The. Yeah.
- [69:28]
A
Where you're a dorky dad. You know, they don't want your dorky dad around. Just like you're talking about. You don't want the dorky and SEAL around. And by the way, you're right in the fact that now that I think about it, like, there was definitely times when I was in the SEAL platoon, it's like, you know, hey, boss, you might want to head out for a while. The boys have got some stuff we gotta handle. Right. That's. Yeah, that's definitely happening.
- [69:46]
B
So.
- [69:47]
A
Yeah, I get it. But here's. Here's what I. Here's what I. Sometimes guys think. Some guys, sometimes people lean on this.
- [69:57]
C
Yeah.
- [69:58]
A
Hey, I'm not here to be liked.
- [69:59]
C
Yeah.
- [70:00]
A
And what that. What that then in that statement gives them permission to do is not listen to you, not treat you with respect, not be influenced by you at all. So I don't want people to use that crutch of like, hey, I'm not here to be liked. Matter of fact, there was a. There was a guy that came in to instruct when Leif was teaching the. The junior officer training course. And the guy came in and says, like, it's not your job to be liked. And he said, as a matter of fact, it's your job to. That you're not liked. And, you know, Leif had to, like, let the guy leave and then correct him. Because if you had a bunch of junior officers going, hey, I'm here to not be likes.
- [70:32]
C
Terrible.
- [70:33]
A
That's a freaking problem.
- [70:34]
C
Yeah. And the Marine Corps just. Actually, I think they. They put in this. They added on the JJJ Ty buckle, which is the leadership trait.
- [70:41]
A
Yeah. They trade empathy.
- [70:43]
C
Yeah, empathy. And it was, in my opinion, based around officers not being a dick to be a dick. Right. It wasn't this coddling thing. It was, hey, don't be a dick just because you can be a dick. Right. And so my. My point of it is. And so I say that liked and trusted thing a lot in this book. I think you can be both. But I think only one can be your priority. So it's, it's. And I'll give you an example. Politicians are leaders that live by being liked. Do you trust them? Police officers are people who live by being trusted. But do you like them? And so, like, that's the difference of, of at what point you're, you know, of which one you. I think. I think you can be both, but I don't think you can. Both can be your priority.
- [71:38]
A
Yeah. And even, Even the fact that let's. Let's look at respect, right? So it's an interesting thing that goes on in the military because we. You've already made, like, a few. It might have been before we started recording. But look, when we're enlisted guys, we talk about the officers, right? It's like it's open, kind of open season. Yeah. But then when you.
- [71:58]
C
We.
- [71:59]
A
When you become a senior NCO, there's a lot of senior NCOs that all of a sudden now they want to flex on the, on the rank. Because now I'm a senior nco, and now I'm gonna kind of flex that rank. But you want to. You wait. So we don't have to respect the officers, but you want me to respect the senior nco? There's a little hypocrisy there. Whereas for me, it's like, hey, when, when you and I work together, then you're my boss and we respect each other. Not only do I respect you as a person, but I respect the fact that you're the. Whatever rank you are. I respect the fact that you're a captain or you're a major, whatever. And just like you respect the fact that I'm a corporal, you respect that. You know what it took to get there. And so the respect part of it is so important because we actually respect each other as human beings and we respect the rank. So if I'm with Leif Babin and he's. I'm the. I'm the troop commander and he's the platoon commander. So I outrank him. And we're sitting around back at camp and I'm talking to him, guess what he calls me all day long. It's like, hey, Jono, what do you. How you want to do this? We get. And all of a sudden we're sitting in front of a battalion commander. He'll look at me and be, hey, sir, can I make a suggestion? Because he's. He understands. We all understand the dynamic now occasionally, this is what you got. This is what, maybe what you're Talking about here that you're going to watch out for. Yeah, I might have Dakota, the knucklehead, who. I'm cool to you. I'm. I'm the. I'm the platoon commander, and I'm cool to you while we're out in the field. And then we come back and now the battalion commander's there, and you're like, hey, jocko, that was a pretty stupid way to execute that. And all of a sudden you've let it show that there's dis. There's a lack of respect that you didn't understand. To tighten it up, when we were around the battalion commander, a good level of respect that we have for each other, you'd be like, hey, sir, sorry I made that bad call out there. Here's some things I'm going to do different next time. And all of a sudden it's like everything falls in a line. But the minute I'm treating you bad, like, if we're out in the field and I treat you like shit because I outrank you, bro, I. I should out openly expect that when you get the chance to freaking belittle me in front of the battalion commander, it's happening. You're gonna do it all day long.
- [74:10]
C
And I think, like, when you talk about your kids, I think, like, here's the. Here's the dynamic of. And this is just. It's a wild guess. Could be wrong again, could be three strikes, I'm out. But you and your wife and how you talk about her when she's not in the room and how you respect her not just as your wife, but as authority of her being a commander in chief of the kids. And the same thing back you've taught your kids and gave them an example on how this dynamic will work. Right. So, like, you know, when leaders, if you're standing there and you're an NCO and that officer walks out and you're talking about that officer to the guys, you know what they're doing when you walk out of the room, they're doing the same thing. So you, as a. As a leader, you also. And probably the most impactful thing is you teach and you're showing through example how to follow as well. Because whoever's above you and how you show them that you follow them is exactly how they're going to follow you.
- [75:15]
A
Yep. And that's one that can become very tricky and very tricky can become very tricky. And I've had to talk a lot of people through this, and I had to live through it because I've worked for knuckleheads. I know you've worked for knuckleheads. Total knuckleheads. And everybody in your platoon knows that the boss is a knucklehead. And if you try and whitewash that, they're not going to believe it and they actually lose respect for you. So you have to figure out, okay, how am I going to convey to the guys, like, hey, listen, hey, look, this is the way the boss wants us done right now. I know it sounds a little bit strange, but listen, if I'm going to earn any trust with him, we got to execute this thing the best of our ability. And that way we can get a little more leeway. And the guys go, okay, cool, we get it. And I still treat the boss with respect. And I don't. I'm not, clearly, I'm not going to be like, oh, the boss is an idiot. I'll say, hey, listen, the boss sees this a little bit differently than I do. I don't know if we understand the strategic implications of what, of, of how this is going to land, but what we need to do right now in order to gain more trust with him is execute this to the best of our ability.
- [76:12]
C
Yep. And ultimately come up and sell it. You're selling it to them, Right. Like, and no matter what, whether a good decision or a bad decision, you can still make some type of good out of it.
- [76:24]
A
Yeah.
- [76:24]
C
Like, hey, you know what? We're gonna go do this, and hopefully it shows the boss that it doesn't work. But it's all on you as the leader, on how you sell that decision and what you're gonna need to them if you're like, oh, this is. This is stupid. This is dumb. Like, this makes no sense. Well, guess what? They're all thinking.
- [76:41]
A
Yeah, why are we even doing it? And.
- [76:42]
C
And it's like, it's almost like when we, like, whether, whether, you know, it's doing an exercise with the marines or whether it's getting on a rig with, you know, the fire service, it's like, I hate those people. And nothing is more annoying than going to a fall call at 2 o' clock in the morning. And then you got the guy that gets on there and like, man, this is dumb. Like, negative the whole way there. Yeah. We all know, like, no shit, we all had to wake up. We're all on this rig with you. We're all have gone here three times today with you. Right. We all know it sucks. Like, but what are you doing to help make this any better, right? And you as a leader, I think. I think, you know, one of the most impactful things you can do as a leader is be a conversation shifter. Oh, yeah, for sure, right. Shifting that conversation to yeah, but you know what? Like, we get paid to ride on a big fucking truck down the road and people call us and people need us. We still have a job, we're still getting paid, and we're getting paid to care. How cool is that? Right? You know, but being that conversation shifter, and it's so important because, man, like, you know as well as I do shit's contagious. And negativity is contagious. Positive is contagious. Fear, all of it is so contagious. But we got to be able to, you know, you just can't. You can't talk about who you're following. And you as a leader, no matter what, has, have got to sell it because you prep the mindsets of the people to go perform this.
- [78:09]
A
Yeah. And another key component. Number one, if you're getting asked to do something that's immoral, illegal, or unethical, you don't do it. So if you're a young trooper out there and you're getting asked to do something that's illegal, immoral, and ethical, you don't sell that. You. You. You don't do it.
- [78:24]
C
Yeah.
- [78:26]
A
Now, when your boss is telling you to do something that doesn't make sense, you need to ask some questions about why it's happening that way. Present some of those secondary and tertiary effects that your boss might not see. Because if I'm telling you to go charge a machine gun nest and you look at me like, hey, boss, if we go up this, towards this elevated position where there's a bunkered machine gun nest, we're all going to die. Is that what the intent that you have? I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I just think we need to get rid of that machine gun nest so we can maneuver across this open area. And you go, okay, cool. Let me put down a base of fire. Let me move around to the flank and let me. Oh, okay, cool. Yeah, you handle it. Right. So as a leader, you should want to get pushback on your ideas. And there's also something I call the explanation effort meter, which is when I'm trying to convince you of something. It shouldn't be that hard. My meter shouldn't go into the red. I shouldn't have to be like, well, well, no Dakota but this, and no Dakota but this, and no Dakota, but you know what? Shut up and do what I told you to do. I can't even explain anymore. I went to the red and blew out the engine. If it's that hard for you to convey what it is and why it is you're doing something, then you might need to check yourself. And I always get, you know, I get asked a lot, like, what. What about when the military, you got told to do things that were stupid? I'm like, well, that. First of all, that didn't happen very often. I do write about it in the dichotomy of leadership, where we got told we had a minimum number of Iraqis that we had to take with us on every mission, and it was a ratio of how many Americans could go with Iraqis. And that, and for a Ramadi at the time, didn't make sense. And I raised my hand, wrote an email to my boss and said, hey, boss, here's what's going on. Here's what the requirements are. Here's my request for a waiver, and here's the minimum number of seals I want to have in the field. And he's like, thanks for that information. Makes sense. Proceed. So when you're getting told to do something that doesn't truly doesn't make sense, ask some questions. Now, look, are there going to be times where your boss might be like, hey, listen, this is what we're doing. Make it happen. Hey, I'm not sure if. Hey, Dakota, this is what we're doing. Make it happen. Got it. Cool. And my interpretation of that is we don't. I don't have, you know, I don't have time to explain it to you. There's something that I can't explain to you right now. There's some political bullshit going on, but I need to make this happen. And you go, cool, got it. And you go and execute it to the best of your ability. Now, listen, if it's, you know, also, like, if. If you're going to take unnecessary casualties, then you go, hey, I just want to make sure we're going to storm this machine gun nest and I'm probably going to lose 50% of my force. Is that what you're saying? I'd be like, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. Yeah, I just want that. So there's a whole bunch of things going on here. And again, just to tie this back into, like, being friends, that shouldn't be your priority. Your priority shouldn't be to be friends with people. And one more thing. If you want to build relationships with people, A lot of times you think well of. You know, I want to build. I want to. I want to build relationships with. With Dakota. You know, he's my senior nco, and I go, hey, Dakota, let's go have a beer. Hey, Dakota, let's go have lunch. That's cool. That's cool. I get it. But does that show you that I trust you? Does that show you that I listen to you? Does that show you that I have influence, that you have influence over me? Does that show that I respect you? Does that show that I care about you? Maybe if I pay for lunch, maybe. But that's about it. So me just going to lunch with you, me just having a beer with you doesn't actually improve our relationship. What improves our relationship is when I say, hey, Dakota, here's the mission we got to get done. Let me know how you want to make it happen. And then you present me a plan, and I listen to you, and I allow you to execute that plan. And now we start to build a real relationship. And what we end up with is what? And maybe we just have a mismatch of definition. What we end up with is you and I are friends.
- [82:17]
C
Yeah. And. But. But what we define friends as is ultimately it, Right? Like, I. I don't surround myself with people like that. Like, I don't give a shit about going to lunch. I give a shit about getting better, bro. I didn't go to lunch, My friend.
- [82:35]
A
Lunch is for cows.
- [82:36]
C
Lunches for hours.
- [82:37]
A
Who work for your. Work through lunch and stay late.
- [82:40]
C
But then that's what I respect. That's. That's where we're going to become friends. Exactly. When we're getting after it, when we're both accomplishing this, we're going after this. You know, I talk about. I talk about leadership equity, right? And so, like, one of the things when you're talking about somebody questioning you over and over, it's a diagnostic tool, right? It's either a diagnostic tool that you haven't sold them on, why you need it, or why you're doing this, which you should. You owe it to them. No, you're not ever in a position of where you don't owe them an explanation, especially people you're asking to do something for you, or the second piece is it's a diagnostic tool that you have expended all of your leadership equity. And I talk about this story of, you know, when I got to the Marines, eventually, people are going to. It's going to cross your mind why? It's human beings, nature, like at some point you ask yourself, why am I doing this no matter what? And so I got to the, I got out to Hawaii, I went to Paris Island School of Infantry and I got, and I tell you I arrived in Hawaii and it was, I mean I showed up to a line unit and they just came back from the Haditha Triad showed up on round Thanksgiving weekend.
- [83:51]
A
What year is this?
- [83:52]
C
2006.
- [83:54]
A
Check.
- [83:55]
C
Yeah. And when I showed up, you know, the rooms that we were walking into, it was on a thing, it was like a Thanksgiving weekend. But the rooms that we showed up and walked into were of the guys that they had lost. The first thing I did with my, with Kilo company was that Monday we showed up together as a, as part of the platoon and the company was. We, we went to the chapel and did the ceremony of all the guys they lost. And so you could imagine what, what these guys were like. And I had a, and a squad leader and I didn't understand. I mean you go from, you know, school of infantry to getting to the line. And like we talked about, they do things a little bit different. And every day, I mean we had this squad leader that was just, man, he, There was never any time off. It was 24, seven, you're PT and you were, you know, you come in and you didn't. You, you know, you got, you learn a nine line. Like it was like every other, you know, seemed like every other squad was not having to do. And we're the ones that are in there, just everybody else is hanging out, you know, skating and then we're in there just nine line, nine line. And it was like, you got an eyeline now. It was like, you know, you gotta do this. And it just craziness, right? And I didn't understand it. And after I thought everybody hated us, right? I mean you just, you felt like nothing and you go off this high of becoming a marine and then now you get to the fleet and you're back to the start and you're just a boot. And I thought everybody hated me. And I'll never forget after about two weeks of being there, I called my dad and I'm like, hey dad, what's going on? He's like, man, like, you making a lot of friends out there? And I'm like, yeah, you know, I got, I think I got taped to the pull up bars because I couldn't do all the pull ups, you know what I mean? I could only do so many. I couldn't do all of them, you know. And I was like, what did I sign up for? And my dad's like, well, one of your buddies. Your buddies called me. I'm like, what? He's like, yeah, you know, like, said, you're doing great. And I'm like, I don't know that I have a friend out here right now. And he's like. He's like a, you know, Daniel or whatever his name was called me. And I'm like, who? And he told me, I was like, what's his last name? And he told me. I'm like, corporal called you? I'm like, he's. He's hazing my dad too now. And he's like, yeah, he wanted to call me and let me know that, you know, because when you check in, you check in with these folders or we did, and you had all your information on it, you know, your check in paperwork, and I gave it to him. And my dad's like, yeah, he called me. He wanted to let me know that you got checked in. You live three rooms down from him. You're in a room with three other guys. He let me know that he just got back from Iraq. It was his first deployment, that he was a squad leader, and he wanted to let me know that if I had any questions about his son, that he was responsible for you and every single away. And if I had any questions to pick up the phone and call him and make sure that. That he had. That I had his information. And then he promised me that he would do everything and he would not waste one second of time to make sure that you were prepared for whatever the country might ask you to do for them.
- [87:20]
A
Damn, dude. Who is that? Corporal?
- [87:24]
C
Yeah, it was Corporal Kreitzer. And. And I thought the guy hated me. He would still deny it to today that he did it, but, you know, when you talk about leadership equity, from that point on, what he asked me didn't have to make sense. I'm sure that mopping the basketball courts and the pouring down rain, I'm sure it had something to do with it. I'm sure. I'm sure that there was a damn.
- [87:55]
A
Good reason for it.
- [87:56]
C
Yeah, sure. But you know what? Like, do you think I ever question if that guy cared?
- [88:02]
A
Yeah. That's why that last component of relationship is care. Because when you.
- [88:08]
C
When he.
- [88:09]
A
When you knew that he cared about you, you. You knew you would care about him.
- [88:15]
C
I'm telling you something right now. Still to this day, I would run through a wall for that guy. Right? I mean, just. Just a good guy. And, you know, and I Had leaders like that, you know, Sergeant Major Soto, Rodriguez, same thing, right? I mean, just. I had leaders like that, and they're everywhere. And. And so, you know, but. But let me tell you something. Those guys lived it. They lived for us. They didn't live for themselves. You know what I mean? And I'll tell you, they, they. There was never a time when I look at those leaders that made such an influence, there was never a time that they ever thought they were above doing what we did. So, like, yeah, if there was a working party and they had something else they had to do, then they weren't there. But let me say this. They were there first and they were leaving last. And that is something that, like, I have been so fortunate with. Of the leaders that I was raised by. But let me say this. On top of it, they always demanded the most when. And I'm so thankful for it because, you know, when I look at the medal, I think of all. That was the easiest day of my life. You know, those guys getting up and being who I needed them to be, not who I wanted them to be, ultimately prepared me for that thing. And I think that, like, as leaders, if your biggest fear as a leader is not that the person you're in charge of is going to fail because you didn't prepare them, if it's you worried about you failing, wrong.
- [89:53]
A
Everyone will see it too.
- [89:55]
C
Everyone will see it. And I'll tell you, that's what's different about this generation is they are emotionally in tune and they can tell if somebody genuinely cares about them or not. You're not going to fake authenticity with this generation.
- [90:12]
A
I was watching a guy named Flynn Cochran who is in the SEAL teams, and he was working at Echelon Front and his wife works at Echelon Front, and he was on stage and he was describing me debriefing him during a training operation and just how, you know, I was just freaking tearing him a new ass and up and down. Why the hell did you do this? And what the hell was this over there? And it's. And as he's up there telling that story, I'm kind of like, damn, dude. Because I'm always like, hey, you know, you need to be. Be building relationships. And, and how. Because that's the way I was. And I was like, how. Because I was like that for, you know, for my career of, like, if someone's doing something that's messed up, like, I'm going to let him know. And I was like, how come he. He was okay with that? Because he said, like, it was like, you know, this is where I learned this from. And I realized that the reason that guys listened to me was because they knew that more than anything else in the world I cared about.
- [91:16]
C
Yeah.
- [91:17]
A
And I wanted to make sure that they understood their job so they could come home themselves and bring their guys home. And so that's what. As soon as you realize that with your first, you know, squad leader.
- [91:30]
C
Yeah.
- [91:31]
A
As soon as you realize that, you're like, oh, I'll do anything for this guy.
- [91:34]
C
Anything for him. Right. And it was that way on. And that's what, like, I try. I take back. Is. Is. Is giving a. Right. Giving a. About the people, you know, I just like, obviously I re enlisted and I was up at. I was up at rtc and I'll never forget, there was this kid up there. And when I got there, you know, they called me the old. I'm old. I'm old core. Right.
- [91:58]
A
Yeah.
- [91:59]
C
And I had had to learn. Learn a little bit about, you know, way things. Way things are. And it's still the same. And I argue it's still. It's no different now than when I was in. It's just about, are you willing to do it and be there and hold the standard. But there was a kid, I'll never forget, we were coming out to formation, and so you had to run this test to pick up with the class, and you had to pass it to pick up with the class. Right? And this kid, we're out there in formation, and I'm like, hey, where's so and so? And they're like, oh, he's in his room. He's not. He doesn't want to pick up. He's fine with just dropping back to going to the line unit and going on about his way. He just. It's. It's something in about him is just. It ain't in him today. So I went up there, man. I'm like, somebody opened this door. So I opened the door because we were going to chow, and then we had to go do the test. And so I walked in there and he was still in bed. And I'm like, get up. I'm like, get up. I started asking him, like, what job do you not want in the Marine Corps? He's like, admin. I'm like, okay, well, I'll make sure you get fucking admin. And I'm like, he's like, well, I'm already an infantryman. I said, okay, well, I'll call your unit before you get there. I Said, I'm gonna tell you something. What you're gonna do right now, you might go out there and fail, but you're not gonna quit. You're not gonna quit. And I said, so get up, get your shit on. I said, I don't care what you do. I said, I will physically take you and I'll deal with the consequences that I get. But I said, I'm an NCO and I'm not gonna let you not show up. And so I said, what you do? I said, you want to get out there with all of us and you want to. You want to fail the run or you want to fail the pull ups? Have at it. But that's on you. But I'll tell you what, I'll get you there. You're gonna get there. And I got the message over here on my phone. He wrote me because he graduated brc.
- [93:44]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [93:45]
C
And he, like, thanked me and his. His mom, you know, he introduced me to his mom. I flew out for the graduation. He introduced me to his mom.
- [93:52]
A
And.
- [93:52]
C
And that's. Do you think that kid liked me in that moment?
- [93:55]
A
No.
- [93:55]
C
Hated me. Probably was thinking about how he's gonna kill me. But. But you know what? Like, if I had failed him and I had let him go about that route, who knows where he would have ended up in life one day? You know what I mean?
- [94:09]
A
Yeah.
- [94:10]
C
Who knows?
- [94:11]
A
And this is exactly what you were talking about. If your goal, your prioritized goal was to be friends with this guy in the traditional sense of the word friend, then you'd be like, hey, dude, I get it. It's not that big of a deal. A line. Unit's cool too. And you not. This isn't for everyone. But that's okay that he would have smiled and said, thanks, man, I really appreciate it, but that's not what he needed. That's not a real friend, by the way. I don't even consider that a real friend.
- [94:37]
C
100%. And that's what the difference is, is today is brotherhood. Today is over being like. And this is where we get it mixed up. And. And the same thing with love. The word love. And I know that's a weird thing for me to say.
- [94:51]
A
Yeah, we usually don't use the L.
- [94:52]
C
Word on this, but because here. Because here's. Because here's the thing about love. People tie it to an emotion, and it's not. It's a choice. Love is a choice. It's not emotion. It's not about making me feel good. It's about putting what's in the best interest of you. Over everything else, over how it feels, over everything else. It's about you putting what's in the best interest of somebody else. That's what love is ultimately. And it. And 99 of time. It's hard, it sucks, it hurts, and it doesn't feel good, but that's what it is. And that's what brotherhood is. Brotherhood is loving other people. And I'm like, if you're not willing to stand there and tell this kid to do what's right or to correct them before they go get up by somebody else, or to beat their ass if they need to be, have their ass beat before getting out of the car for drinking or whatever. You think you're really gonna go in a house when they're trapped in it or out in the middle of the road getting shot up and you're gonna go risk your life when you could die for them, when you could die trying to help them? Nope.
- [95:58]
A
I went to one of my buddy's retirements. He did like 30 plus years in the Seal teams and he was given his retirement speech. And he said, you know, he gets up and this is like a senior enlisted master chief. Like I said, like 34, 35 years in active duty the whole time. And he says, I can sum up what the SEAL teams is in one word. And I was like, what the hell is he. And I've known this guy for a long time. I'm like, what? I'm thinking, like, real quick, is he gonna say discipline? Is he gonna say, you know, it's only one word. It can't be firing maneuver. It's, you know, it can't be superior firepower. What's he gonna say in. For, you know, those milliseconds, I had that thought. And he goes, love. And I was like, yeah, damn, dude. He's right. I'm like, yup. Since everything you just said. Yeah. It's like legit.
- [96:55]
C
It is, right. And, and yeah, I mean, I, and I, I think so much about. And obviously, like, the further I think the further, you know, I think it's why they say time heals everything. The further you get away from things, you see it different. You, you see how complex and multi dimensional things are, you know, And I talk about how, you know, obviously whenever I, I, I think about Gangegal, and that's by far the single day that transformed who I am so much. Right. And I, and I think this might sound probably bad and I'll probably take some heat for it, but I'll say it anyways. I think this last year, I would say last year was the. Was the first year that I was. That I was thankful for my teammates deaths. And I'm not happy about it, but when I thought about it, if I'm not thankful for it, then I'm disrespectful to it, and it means that I don't appreciate what their deaths have meant. And think about this. If I told you today that you could die for a cause, that people would be inspired and would live off of your story for the Next. It's been 16 years, would you say that's a cause worth dying for? You could inspire thousands, maybe millions because of your story and what you did and your sacrifice and what it meant and the lineage it left. Dude, I would jump on that in a heartbeat. And, and I think for me, like, when I shifted that mindset, like, I obviously was here because I have to go. Somebody has to go tell it, because if nobody tells it, then it's. It doesn't matter.
- [98:56]
A
Yeah. I had Travis Manion's sister Ryan on the other day, and he, you know, he was killed in 2007 in Fallujah, and she was talking to one of his friends, and the friend basically asked that same question because, you know, he has the Travis Manion Foundation. It's inspiring people all over the world and all over the country helped out so many veterans, helped out so many families.
- [99:22]
C
Yeah.
- [99:22]
A
And she was like, she was like, you know, he. He would make the choice. And she was kind of like, you know, I was like, no, I would give all this stuff away, like, if I could have my brother back. But then she was like. And I thought about it, and she was like, yeah, he was right. Like, Travis would do it all again the same exact way, knowing the impact that he's gonna have and knowing that he kept a few of his Marines alive that day. That's enough. And so, yeah, that's. That's a pretty profound way of thinking about things.
- [99:57]
C
Yeah. I mean, you look at. I mean, you look what. I mean, look, the Travis Manion foundation is, I mean, the Mangan name, his lineage and legacy of the core, you know, and, and, but it, but it wouldn't be that without, you know, his family going out and pushing this. I mean, you know, could you imagine, like, being the sister of this and having to relive it over and over? But, but like, the courage it takes to be able to go tell the story in a way that. That takes care of others, you know, and, and I think that's ultimately what we're all going to face Bad. Like, that's just life. Like, like bad things happening or it's just life. You're never going to get away from it, no matter what. Whether you sit on the couch and hide all day, you're gonna, you're gonna struggle, whether you. Whatever. But the only way to turn bad into good and to get, get it out of the world is if you absorb it and you turn it in to help others. They say that, that. They say that evil, good and evil comes from the same place. There, there's somebody that has gone. People who do it. There's somebody who has gone through something bad. And one goes out and hurts others because they were hurt, and the other one goes out and helps others because they were hurt. And they don't want that to pass on to anybody else. And that. You can't decide that. Neither one of them could decide what happened to them, but they could decide what they did with it. And that's what we all have to do.
- [101:25]
A
Yeah, that's a weird. Like, you know, people that have. Their dad was an alcoholic and some of them never drink, they're like, oh, yeah, I saw what that's like. And some of them become alcoholics.
- [101:35]
C
Yeah.
- [101:36]
A
You know, like, same thing with abuse. Like, some kids get abused, they become abusers. Some kids like, oh, I'm. I'm never gonna do that. So this how you. How. I don't know what makes that shake out the way it does. That'd be good to know.
- [101:48]
C
It's a choice.
- [101:50]
A
The choice.
- [101:50]
C
The choice. That's what the, that's where the power of life is and the choice.
- [101:59]
A
Speaking of bad things happening in your book, you talk about inconveniences, problems and emergencies.
- [102:06]
C
Yeah.
- [102:06]
A
And properly identifying those things as to what's an inconvenience, what's a problem, and what's an emergency. Talk me through those, because that can help people.
- [102:17]
C
Yeah. You know, we all, you know, if everything in your life becomes an emergency, then nothing's an emergency. And how often do you hear people talk about that, you know, like, oh, you know, I got this emergency, you got this emergency, you got this emergency. So the way that, you know, when you. And really what you're tying to these is how much emotional equity you're going to put in each one of them. It's a tie to it.
- [102:39]
A
Right.
- [102:39]
C
A problem gets a little bit different level of emotions than a, you know, an inconvenience. I mean, they're just, they're literally the same Thing, they're just categorized of how much emotions you're going to tie to them. And we talked about how emotions are so important, but I think you have to identify what each, what the difference of all of them are as yourself. And so I look at it like this, look, if you can write a check for it, if you can make a decision or you can do something to change it, it's an inconvenience, not a problem. At the point that it becomes something you can't make a decision to change, it's a problem. And eventually problems will ultimately sometimes become inconveniences the longer that they go on.
- [103:24]
A
You know, except that's the way that is now.
- [103:27]
C
Just the way it is, right? The longer it's there, you live with it and then you just start. People are so. Human beings are so, so adaptive.
- [103:35]
A
It's funny, when our gym burned down. Oh, we didn't burn down. But when our gym had the fire, right? People would be like, oh my God, that's terrible. And I'd say, yeah, it is a completely devastating, massive inconvenience for me because even though it like, because we, we opened up a new gym, but it's like 25 minutes away, you got to get on the couple highways, there's traffic, there's like, we don't have showers there. So it is like all these little problems. But guess what? The gym caught fire. Didn't burn. I'm sorry, didn't burn down. We saved the building. No one died. We're rebuilding it, we have insurance, like so it's not that big of a deal. It's a major, major, major inconvenience for me. But you know, it is what it is.
- [104:20]
C
But, but think about people who are like, you know, everything becomes an emergency and an emergency is only identified as something that is happening right now that if you don't do something, take action or make a decision, somebody's life will end. So if anybody's even listening to this podcast right now, they're not having it. There's no emergency, there's no emergencies. You know, I mean, and majority of things are, are inconveniences. And, and I, I remember this, I was going through this, this problem and this guy looked at me.
- [104:48]
A
I did see like a freaking video of a cop in high speed chase and he was listening to jockey podcast. He was on his cruiser camp. Somebody said it to me, it was freaking awesome. He's like, you know, good lights are blaring, sirens blaring, and he's like listening to the Podcast. I'm like, oh, this is, this is pretty dope.
- [105:07]
C
He's been doing that for a while.
- [105:08]
A
And I also saw a video of a kid gets in a crazy car accident and then like turns up AC dc. It's pretty legit.
- [105:16]
C
Yeah. You know, so, yeah, I mean, I had this like, problem going on. I was, I was bitching about something and this guy's like, he goes, you don't, you don't have any, you don't have any problems. He goes, that's an inconvenience. He goes, the day that your kid gets cancer, you got a problem. He goes, you ain't got no problems, you got inconveniences. You know, make a decision.
- [105:36]
A
Yeah, it's, it's, there's always somebody else in a freaking really bad situation around you.
- [105:42]
C
Yeah, it's about, it's about perspective and context.
- [105:47]
A
So you got this other thing, so, you know, talking about the book, but you've got this other thing that you got going that you mentioned real quick. It's a sub stack.
- [105:55]
C
Yeah.
- [105:55]
A
And it's called the bluff, which, by the way, I was chuckling because in your bluff, you've got the bluff last. Do you know that? Has anyone hassled you about that?
- [106:06]
C
They've already hassle me now. I'm so glad you brought it up.
- [106:08]
A
So bottom line up front is the military term. And what that means is when I write you a six page email at the beginning of it, I put the bottom line up front. Hey, we need more ammo and weapons for this platoon because we've got augments. Yeah. And then I give you six pages worth of here's who the augments are, here's when they're checking on board, here's what weapons qualifications they have, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but I gave you the bottom line up front. So that's kind of the, the, the theory behind your sub stack is like, hey, here's some things that are going on. You happen to put the bottom line.
- [106:42]
C
In the back, but you know where it's at.
- [106:43]
A
I do know you could scroll right. If you want to.
- [106:46]
C
Like it really matters where I put the bottom line up front.
- [106:50]
A
I actually, I actually was like, yeah, you know what, it kind of makes sense to recap it, but now that I'm thinking about it right now, I think you should put it in the front and I'll tell you why. Okay, tell you my two reasons why. Number one, the people can read it and they'll get the main message of it very quickly. The Other thing is, is when you, like. Because I read the articles and then I would reread them, and as I was rereading them, that I knew what they were about. I kind of knew it kind of made it more impactful.
- [107:22]
C
Okay.
- [107:22]
A
Because I understood what the bottom line was, and now I was getting the supporting details.
- [107:26]
C
So then I'm gonna put them up front.
- [107:27]
A
Well, I mean, look, I'd put them.
- [107:29]
C
At the bottom because I didn't want to. I didn't want to keep people from reading it. Oh. So, like, I didn't want them to just show up and be like, I wanted to. I didn't want them to read it and then be like, well, I already know that. Instead of, like, seeing the contextual piece of how I, like, laid it in there and what the lesson was from it. So I put it at the bottom. One guy let me know, day one, launching it, that I should. It should be the. The blub or something. Bottom line up under the back. In the back or something. Right. Bliv. Or whatever. I mean, I got it right. Yeah. And I did the same thing in the book. Right. The bottom line up, fronts, in the back.
- [108:08]
A
Yeah. The bottom line is the back of the book.
- [108:10]
C
But, yeah, maybe I will if I. Because I just want. What I wanted was, is everybody. Everybody reads stuff differently. And I just wanted to make sure that at the end of it, they knew what the point was. Right. Like, let's. Let's recap. Before you walk away with this, I'm going to leave you with exactly what you should have took.
- [108:28]
A
Actually, you know, what we're doing. Be probably really good as front and back.
- [108:31]
C
Yeah.
- [108:31]
A
You know, because here's the other thing. These are not excruciatingly long articles.
- [108:38]
C
Like, they're written by Marine.
- [108:40]
A
They're. They're. They're. They're not. They take three minutes to read or something like that, or four minutes at the most. So when you read. And what I also think is, I think that the bluff is enticing. Like, I. When I read. When I read the bluff, I'm like, oh, that's what I wonder. I wonder how he came to that conclusion. Or I wonder what he means by that. So I don't know.
- [109:00]
C
Yeah, that's. That's some good feedback. That's some good feedback. You know, that's what. That's brotherhood.
- [109:06]
A
But maybe I shouldn't have done it in the middle of the podcast.
- [109:09]
C
No, no. Because now everybody's gonna go over there and look at it. They're gonna be like, I can't. As soon as I start getting these hammers on comments, I'm gonna get changed before this thing comes out. But, but they. But no. So I started, I started, you know, I had so much more to say and I think, you know, we're seeing a real time. We have an opportunity in our country the next 48 months, 24 months, 24 months, I think 24 solid ones to really build back and get a foundational piece of who we are as people. Right. And I, I'll be honest with you. I mean, I think I called you before about it, you know, speaking out and giving your opinions. All of us at some point are, whether you like it or not, you're tied, you're tethered to something. It's just the reality of it, you're tethered to something. Right? And you know, for me, like, I had to ultimately make a big decision this year of was I going to be silent and at the possibility, the expense of everything I believed in and at the expense of my children's future, or was I going to stand up and do what I could with what I had? You know, I think, I think for a lot of us, we've tried to live the example, but we have probably not used what we need to use the most right now. And that's our voice. And now it's got to be done in a way that's effective because your voice doesn't matter if nobody listens to you. And it's got to be through only one anchor, and that's in the best interest of people. Right. So what you're saying has got to be the only loyalty you can have is into the greater good. And your principles have got to be aligned, you know, and I think that's what's happened across the country is the world is, you know, there was laws and there was policies and there was all these things to put handicaps in place, to make everything equal and to protect people and things like that. But laws, rules and policies are no good if they are at the expense or they hurt the very people that they're supposed to trust. And they're only as good as the people who are enforcing them. And so I, I came out with this sub stack. I can put a longer form of my opinions on there of like, what I think, what I see, what I've experienced and try to show, share that knowledge across the board to people like, of what I've learned.
- [112:05]
A
Right.
- [112:05]
C
I mean, look, I, I definitely am a guy who's made more mistakes than probably most people on the face of the planet. You know, I've, I've, I've struggled when it comes to mental health. Like I, I, I, but I've also came back from it. Right. And so like, you know, when I look at all this, to be able to, to pass on that experience and I think that's a thing that our generation, I mean, I'm not gonna say everybody, but I think that's a thing that our generation has not done a good job of is, is taking on the role of spooling up and training the next generation. And I think we got to do more of it.
- [112:37]
A
Right.
- [112:37]
C
I think. But it's got to be the right people.
- [112:40]
A
Well, that's why I wrote a bunch of kids books, to be honest with you.
- [112:42]
C
Okay. I know, I'm sitting here. I got it, I got it.
- [112:46]
A
That is, that is my, you know, that's why I wrote them and I wrote them, you know, my, by the, I always tell a story that I wrote them because my, because they want good books for my kids. By the time my kid, by the time these books came out, my kids were, two of them were totally out of the picture as far as reading this book and being influenced by it. Maybe a little, maybe just a little bit. They got a little bit of influence. My son was, you know, he was, you know, maybe a little bit. And then my youngest daughter maybe. But really it was like, oh, these, there's a lacking of what you're saying. What there's a lack of, hey, here's, here's some, just broad guidance brought to you in a way that you can understand, you can laugh, you can smile, you can get the, you can read a cool book.
- [113:32]
C
Yeah.
- [113:32]
A
Watch a cool movie and you're going to learn some lessons that are going to help you. How do you, how do you avoid getting caught up in the freaking day to day like chaos of the 24 hour news cycle?
- [113:52]
C
Yeah, it's tough. It's, it's tough because you know that that's a tough one because I have, I, I've, I refuse to do it. Like I'm not gonna be the guy that's gonna sit back and throw eggs at the cars going by. Right. I mean, because that's just if I'm not, I don't bring up any problems that I'm not willing to be the solution to. You know, I'm only going to speak about things that are in my wheelhouse. So like, I don't know if you noticed on my sub stack, I, I set the expectation in the viewpoint and who I am in the first article, you know, like my leadership piece, I'm, I've never led a Fortune 500 company. I have no, I have no clue how to talk about that, what boardrooms are. I've never gone to school. I can't tell you what you read in a book. But what I can tell you is I know what leadership's like. Whenever I've led teams in combat, I've led, you know, I've led teams in the fire service. Right. Like I, I do understand what leadership is when the stakes are high and that, that not performing cost other people their lives. So I'm going to come from that piece of it, right. If you want a high level strategy guy, probably not going to be me. But if you need somebody who's going to get you results, I'll probably be your guy. And so, you know, I try to level set with that so people understand. But I am done with. And that's why I, I not been getting on these news pieces. I'm done with just pointing out the problem. Like I refuse to do that. Like I will only point out a problem if I'm going to provide solutions. Because if that's not what you're doing, you're just bitching. It's hard though. It's hard, it's hard. But I'll say this, and I don't know how you feel about this. I just think that there's a ton of people out there. There's a very toxic piece that's crushing us right now and it will kill our population is this extinctionist mindset. And I'll tell you what that is. Anybody that is categorizing, well, all men are bad, all women are bad, all marriages are bad, all this next generation, they're just weak. Anybody that's doing that and is leaving conversations where people are powerless when they just sit there and point out the problems and they leave people powerless, which is what we're seeing in the news cycles all over. You want to talk about, Let me tell you how you kill the human spirit is by getting them to believe that things can't get better and it's not worth doing because nobody. And they started this with these talks. Okay, you ready for me to how this has all been a marketing campaign is it started with this one thing that everybody can relate to right now and it's absolutely untrue. Well, why go vote? My vote doesn't matter. Talk about one of the most powerful things of selecting who runs this country. And what they do is they put this ideology and they do this, I call it factual blending of, of where they take a piece of the fact and then they blend it in with all this bullshit, right? And, and they, they play off your emotions and they get you to believe that still getting up and doing the right thing doesn't matter. And what that does is kills the spirit. And I don't know if you've ever heard of this study. There was a study when it came to mice and these scientists, what they did is they threw these mice into this pool and then after like five minutes, the mice started to drown. So what they did is they reached and they pulled the mice back out and they stuck them on the side of the pool or little tub or whatever and they let them recover and they tossed them back in and the mice Swam for over 24 hours. Do you want to know why?
- [117:39]
B
Hope.
- [117:40]
C
Because of hope. And if you want to kill a population of people, you kill their hope. And I, and I get so sick and tired of hearing these people talk about statistics. And this is where I do think that like this data stuff is, is. Is really getting in the way of us, of statistics. You know, I stood up in, in. What was that, what was the city called in Massachusetts where they, where the, where the British marched up Concord.
- [118:06]
A
Okay.
- [118:08]
C
I stood up there and I got to speak on the stage like a few days before the anniversary this year. And I was like going to give this speech and it just hit me and it's like, it hit me of what the American spirit is. I said the American spirit is not logical. It's that we believe. It's the power of belief and hope. You know, when you look at all these statistics and you look at these numbers and when you start putting people into numbers and, and all these like other things which I understand they're powerful and they matter. But I think about that day. Imagine if you had told those shopkeepers and you told those farmers and you had told these everyday people this computer's statistics of them being able to fight and be able to be successful and there be something that we get to live off of and enjoy. If you told them what the statistics and the odds were of them defeating the British who were marching up there that day, do you think they would have ever picked a gun up? No. And we need people who leave conversations of people that they can do something. And that's what's killing us right now. So when you talk about why do I not get, how do I stay out of that? It's a conscious decision, but I cannot bring up things that I can't leave people better than I found them with if I'm only going to amplify what they already know and point out what they're already seeing. We've got to be dealers of hope.
- [119:42]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I was talking to one of my buddies yesterday after I got done training Jiu Jitsu. You hear that echo, Charles? Yes, we training. I was training. I was training with Miha. So I was talking to Miha, and we were just talking about the fact that, you know, I was telling him this story. I was in Iraq, took down a building. He was. We were talking about this topic. We're talking about, like, hey, how do you make things better? And I was in Iraq. We take down this building. And this building is an old building. It's probably. It's a. It's a rural building, but it's probably 30, 40, 50 years old, you know, an old, older building. And in the building where we capture this bad guy, there's a. There's like the kitchen area with the sink and a little area for, like, prepping food, a little counter space. And then directly to the right of that is a little hole with a little gutter where you shit. And it. Then it goes through this little gutter out through a hole in the wall into a shit pit out there. And I was like, bro, I looked at that for. For.01 seconds, and I was like, if I lived here, I would move the hole away from my kitchen area. I would do that the very first moment I lived there. And they hadn't done it. And this was a family. Like, there was a lot of. In the gut, by the way. The gutter didn't have, like, a steep angle of elevation. So, like, you know, kind of just there was. And piss in there. And their, Their. Their. Their sink, their kitchen is four feet from it. Meanwhile, when I got to Iraq, my first deployment, we're. We're living in, like, these tents, you know, like in GP tents, right? Just general purpose tents or big Alaskan tents or whatever. And I get in there and like, minute three, I'm like, okay, I need to put a. Build a rack. Get plywood and build a little rack for my gear. And then I build a little desk so I can do the paperwork I got to do. And I put, like, I get another cot and I elevate that thing. So, like, that's with. Within moments, we're like, how can I take the situation I'm in and make it better? And I think this is exactly what you're talking about. This is. This is why America. This is why America is the land of opportunity. Because when you look around, if you want to look, it's going to be freaking hard. No one's going to cut that wood for you. No one's going to get the plywood. No one's going to move that shitter for you. You're gonna have to do it. You have to clean that old shit out with your hands. That's the way it's gonna work. But we. When you look, and that's what I was saying to me, how's, like, Miha's. He came here from another country and he's established himself and he's built a business and he's working all the time. It's like, oh, yeah, he's not even American. But you know why he's here? Because he knows that's the American dream, to make this stuff happen. And you don't, you know, like, showed up here. And that's what. That's what we do in America. We look around. So we're supposed to do in America. We look around and you go, you know what? I can make things a little bit better. I can make things for me in my world a little bit better. That's what I'm gonna do. And look, you know, people like, well, what Opportunity, opportunities, bro, this is America. This is America. Like, oh, go to a trade school and learn to be an electrician. And you're going to be in a whole nother world. A whole nother world. You learn how to be a plumber, you're going to be home. You learn how to weld. Like, there's, oh, I don't know how to program computers. Well, first of all, now you got AI. You don't need to know how to do that. You just need to think of good ideas. But you're not necessarily going to be paid for that. But guess what? You do need to get your car worked on. So there's so much opportunity. But you have to be willing to go, all right, I'm looking around. I see the situation that I'm in, and I think I can make this better. And if you do that, it's not going to come easy. It's going to be hard. There's risks. And by the way, you're going to make some business decisions that are going to be bad. Like, anyone that's got the idea that starting a business is, like, the best way to do it. It's not necessarily. In fact, it's very, very difficult. And most businesses fail, so be careful of that. But if you're a hard worker and you're. And you're willing to grind it out, you can definitely make your part of the world better. And so, yeah, it's. If, if you're not sensing that hope when you're out there, that's. That definitely a negative.
- [124:09]
C
Killing it because there's control behind it.
- [124:11]
A
How do they kill it?
- [124:12]
C
Well, I mean, people tell you that, you know, everything's bad, you can't do it anymore. I mean, we've got a whole generation that's not buying houses because they've been told that the world's going to shit. They're just watching the news, everything's negative. I mean, you got a generation right now. I mean, you got kids that don't even think that they want to drive, you know, I mean, and it's like, because. Because words matter what they're being told and what they're seeing. And if it's not worth it, it's not worth it to do this. It's not worth it worth it to do this. Why am I going to go get a job when all I'm going to do is pay taxes or like, I mean, like, when you look at this like it's a mentality out there that is just. And it's because nobody is giving them hope, right? Like it's, It's a. We've got to be dealers of hope and we've got to get away from. I see it in the. I see it in the fire service still. Like, I still see in the fire service of like, you know, there's no story, heroic story, for sure, that made logical sense. It was an emotional decision. It wasn't a logical one. Name it. Name it. You can't name one.
- [125:19]
A
That's a good point.
- [125:21]
C
When you look at it through the X's and O's and the logic of it. I mean, if you went strictly logic, you wouldn't even play the teams wouldn't even play the game. You gotta. And that's where the emotion of the human spirit matters. And that's why we've got to stay engaged in it. You know, I talk about, you know, the Medal of Honor day. I. I didn't know what to do. I was just simply, you know, the two hardest days probably of my life is that one. And then, you know, this, this. This day in. And as a firefighter, you know, two different things, but both of them. What was similar was I didn't know what to Do. I didn't know how I was going to do it. I wasn't prepared for either one of them. I was just a guy who believed in something bigger than myself. And I believed in people and good and that people were suffering. And then I had to do something about it. And I was willing to do that up into the cost of. Even if it was my life, I believe that much in it. You know, when you talk about courage, you talk about resiliency, whatever those things, those, those words you put with it is, they're all directly correlated in how much you believe in your cause. Courage, all those like, they are a direct reflection of how much you believe in the cause of that you are part of and the cause you're doing it for. That's direct correlation to it. They're just, they're just a secondary. They're just the action part of the belief of that. And I got to tell you, like, you have to believe in something. You have to believe in something bigger than yourself. If you're the biggest thing you believe in, then you're never going to get anywhere.
- [127:12]
A
Yeah. Even looking at like, you know, you got this T shirt on that says dad on it.
- [127:17]
C
Yeah.
- [127:18]
A
And like, hey, can you make the world a little bit better for your family? I mean, can we just do that?
- [127:26]
C
Just start there, right? Like, like making a difference, man. Like. And I don't know why I've gotten so into it. I mean, it's like everybody feels better when you help somebody else. I believe that. And maybe I'm off on these numbers, but I believe that 90% of people want to be good. I even believe that majority of people in jail wanted to be good. There's just a little bit of leadership gone wrong or the circumstances of where they're at or how they grew up. Right. And so I do believe most people want to be good. And I do believe that most people want to be needed. They want to be needed and they want to be helpful. And so it's how you do that. And I have a rule that I try to live by is I try to leave every room and every person better than I found them. And all I gotta do is give somebody a compliment. Like, just try it. Just try it. Hey, gosh, I like your shirt. Hey, like your hair. Hey, how's your day? Little things like that make a huge, huge difference and more of an impact than you'll ever know. Right. And you'd be surprised at how many people don't do that. Open the door for somebody. Nobody knows what somebody's ever. Everybody on the face of the planet right now is going through something. So, like, when we choose to connect or not connect, it's a choice. It's a choice of. And I get what I love about it is. And why I love people is I control if we're going to be related, like, if we can relate or not on a topic. I like, I drive that. And it's going to be a choice of if I want to relate to you or I don't. Because we are all more relatable than not. And I think that we've got to get back to that. We've got to get back to this, like, being. I call it unconditional in who we are. Like, if you want to be a good person, then be it. But it can't be conditional upon how other people treat you. Because. And I realize this a lot, you know, a lot of people call me an asshole. But you know what? Nobody ever asked the person that calls me an asshole, well, what did you do? They just remembered that I was the asshole. Nobody ever asked, well, what happened to get to the point to where Dakota was an asshole? So if Dakota wants to be remembered as a good person, then I have to be that no matter what. And I'm not going to be unwavering in who I want people to remember me as in that aspect of it. Does that make sense? And we've got to get back to that, man. Like, we're. I do believe that we can get our country back to where. Where it needs to be. I do believe this next generation is better. And I believe they're going to correct a lot of the. The wrongs. I think we're getting better. I think that, you know, we're. We just got to get united. We got to get on the same front. And. And we've got to stop being so shallow when it comes to people. You know what I mean? Like, we gotta just. We. So. So my point back to all this is, is. Is how do I just stop throwing eggs. Stop pointing out what you don't like. Like, start. Start talking about what you do like, and start talking about what we need to do and start having. Stop being so subjective in your. In your. Your rhetoric that you're talking about and be objective. Like, hey, quit walking past problems that you could be a solution to. That's the problem. If you want to fix it, stop walking past problems that you could be the solution to. It's a simple phrase that I love. It's called, if you can, you must. If you can, you must, if you can help somebody, you must help somebody, because not everybody has the ability to help that person.
- [131:15]
A
I have a friend who's a veteran and great guy, definitely going through some struggles. But you know, when I, when I would talk to him, he would have these incredible plans about, you know, what to do, how to solve a problem. And he would present them to me and be very determined and very excited about them. But then, but then be like, well, and what I need is. And there was a whole bunch of things, you know, millions of dollars or, you know, people, relationships with people that didn't have relationships with, or access to people they didn't have access to, like those kind of things. And you know, he would get done telling me to get, you know, in. During one conversation, you get very frustrated that he wasn't able to do the things that he wanted to do. And you know, I'd be like, bro, you gotta just like, you know, start small. Like, start small. What can you help out? You know, who can you help out? Literally? Which of your neighbors can you help out? Which of the veterans that you know right now, which three veterans that you know right now, can you help them move in the right direction? And, and, and that's like, that's what you got to do. Like, you're not going to be able to solve the world's problems, but maybe you could help solve one of your neighbor's problems. Maybe you could help, you know, someone in your family solve their problem or someone across the street or whatever. And if you get focused on solving the world's problems or you get focused on the world, look, there's some things that's going to be real hard to change. You know, there's some policies, there's some political and global situations that are very difficult to unwind. And I'll tell you, if you focus on those things that are very difficult to unwind and that's where you spend your, your waking hours, bro, it's going to be really, really hard for you. It's going to be really hard for you. But if you look at, if you look at your 5 to 25 meters around you.
- [133:10]
C
Yeah.
- [133:10]
A
You know, and go, hey, what's in this 25 meter zone that I can affect? What's the max effective range of your influence and your voice? And look, hopefully that grows over time and you can move to a position where you can. The max effective range of your voice and your influence increases. But if I sit here and the only thing I do is I get frustrated because the problems are beyond the max of effective capability of my weapon system. That's. I'm not doing anything. Meanwhile, I could be using my influence and the power that I do have to solve a problem that's 80 meters away. I can be on target all day long with that and solve something as opposed to real, you know, being frustrated. There's a problem a thousand miles away that I can't believe. I can't do anything about this. Okay, well, what are you gonna do? Sit there and shoot at the air? No. Focus on the problems that are a little bit closer to you and get, take, take care of those.
- [134:05]
C
Yeah. And you know, most people, you know, where, where it starts though, is in the mirror. You, you, you have to fix your own problems before you can go help others. And I see so many people out there trying to fix everybody else's problems as like a coping mechanism to avoid their own.
- [134:28]
A
Yeah, that's.
- [134:30]
C
Let me tell you what that's called. Hypocrisy.
- [134:32]
A
Yeah.
- [134:33]
C
And we've got to start there, right? And that was probably the hardest thing that I had to do was look in the mirror. You know, when I was going around, I was drinking all the time and, and like I had a friend that pointed it out. It, it was just straight up. Like it's, it's that, that mirror, you know, of. And that mirror is hard to look at sometimes. And I write on my mirror every Sunday. I don't know if you've seen the. I did a post on it the other day, but I, I write on my mirror every Sunday. Obviously it gets cleaned once a week, but I, I rewrite it every Monday with a paint marker. What did you expect? So I look at that mirror every morning, I look at it every evening. What did you expect? Did somebody really get one over on you? Or, or did you just did. Is this what you expected? If you, all the decisions you're avoiding or the decisions you were making or the, the things you were allowing, like really, Are you surprised? Like, let's ask that one first. Because if you're not, and 99% of the time you're not, then you should have made a decision. You should have took action. You should have fixed it before it got there. You did this. So fix it. Right. And, and I think, you know, for me, like, I had to look in the mirror. And I remember, man, I remember, I would say, and I told you this before we got on here, you know, I'd say the, the, the single most life changing moment of my life after coming back home of really taking a hard look in the mirror was when you picked me up for the first podcast here. And because I think for the first time, like, I'd been obviously around tons of badass people, I think for the first time in my life in a long time, I looked at somebody that I respected and I was like, I want to be like him. I want to be like him. I want to treat people like him. I want to be fair like him. I want to. I want to. Like that. That right there is what an example looks like of what I should be. And then it gives me. It gave me. I had to take some self inventory on where was I at, Right. And so when I talk about support in the book, this is a real key piece, this support. And it's almost like support's kind of like nutrition, kind of like I wrap them up kind of in the same. But support of, you know, because nutrition's supporting fueling you, support around you is usually fueling you. But you don't need people that just go along with what you are. You need people that hold you accountable to who you decided you wanted to be in that box initially. And I'll never forget, like, you know, getting around, had a guy look at me one time and he's like, you're looked at as a warrior. You present yourself as a warrior. He goes, you drink every day. So what is that? Well, it's an alcoholic. You're fat and out of shape. You're not. Who are you kidding? Like, are you lying to you? Like, you think you're lying to everybody else in this room that, like, this. Is this what a warrior? Is this. Is this a warrior that you would follow? And then you're an. Like, you're just a. And he goes, and I gotta tell you, I couldn't argue that that's what my actions added up to. But the cool part was that once I acknowledged the problem, well, then it was time to get to work. And it was either accept. And I just think, I think the only thing that we owe the world as human beings or other people is to be who we say we are. That's it. If I wanted to be a drunk, fat alcoholic, then I'll be it. But don't act like and don't wrap up and diminish the warrior title that other people were still out earning and doing and living. And so I think that, like, those things of how the closer you can get back to truth, because I think when you look at people, our job as leaders is nothing more than a figuring out there's capabilities and there's intentions. Capabilities and intentions. And you have to figure out the margin that's between those, because leaders are the ones who are helping get those capabilities up, too. As a leader, every person you come into, you have to figure out what their intentions are. Do they intend to be the best person on the team? Do they intend to be a Navy seal? Do they intend to be a war fighter? Because if they do, then that's a good place to start. But are they capable of meeting those intentions? And that's what you have to find out by measuring and putting them through hard things, you know, and then your job after that is to help get those capabilities to match their intentions. And so for me, you know, like, that was a big thing for me to get back on track, was I hadn't seen what right looked like, you know, because I grew up in a generation that you came back from war, you drank, you became a broken toy for the rest of your life. I mean, that's why we got 22 a day. And we got it wrong. You know, we got it wrong. And we have an obligation that once we get this sacred knowledge, which is what combat is, combat. Combat is sacred knowledge. Not many get it. And once you get to see that level of belief and love on a battlefield, you have an obligation to live. Live like you know that. And then you have to go in society, you have to pass it on to others of why it matters, because not everybody's going to get to see why it mattered. Not everybody's going to get to see the consequences of getting it wrong. You got to see it firsthand. You got to see the power of people believing in a cause bigger than themselves. Themselves. And you got to see the consequences firsthand of what this job does. And you have an obligation now that you get the knowledge to pass it on because it's going to help people. But you have to pass it on in a way that it helps people, not a way that it hurts people.
- [141:06]
A
One of the articles you're kind of brushing up against this, but one of the articles that you wrote about in on the Sub Stack the Bluff is about mental health. And I'm just going to throw a couple things out here from. You say I don't. You don't have, you know, you, Dakota, don't have any degrees or licenses. You haven't been any school. You don't have any type of thing to hang on your wall from graduating from any university or anything. Then you say you have a doctorate in traumatic. A doctorate in traumatic events, which I thought was interesting and accurate. And then you, you, you, you, you write that you got asked if there's anything that triggers your ptsd and you said, no, I'll be honest, I don't have PTA PTSD anymore. Then you say you overcame it through ibogaine choices, self accountability. And then you say we've turned ptsd, depression, and anxiety into terminal illnesses.
- [142:02]
C
Yeah.
- [142:03]
A
Bad memories don't mean you're living a bad life. Just like good memories don't mean you're living a good life. People begin to use. They let trauma become their identity, and they, interestingly, take pride in the label. And again, I'm just kind of giving some close quotes from what you wrote about. And listen, you and I both know that there are people that have true clinical depression, true clinical anxiety, true clinical ptsd, of course. And those people, they need to get help for that. But there's also opportunities. And the way you say it here, no pill, no therapy session, and no book can do the work for you. And then you talk about ptsd, depression, anxiety. There's solutions that aren't found in a pharmacy and that aren't found in a therapy's therapist notebook. They're found in ownership.
- [143:03]
B
Yeah.
- [143:04]
A
Ownership of your story, ownership of your choices, ownership of your healing. And, you know, you and I kind of talked about this a bit before we hit record today, but I think one of the hardest things that people have to deal with coming back from combat is things that they did or things that they didn't do that did not or do not meet the expectations of who they wanted to be, who they want to be. And instead of taking ownership of those things, and an important part here that we didn't talk about before, hit record, taking ownership of those things and forgiving yourself. Look, you people, people don't always do what they intended to do in combat. Sometimes there were, you know, they might have been, they might not have performed deeds that they should have. They felt like they should have looked back and say, I should have done this different. I wish I would have done this. I wish I would have done that instead. And then sometimes they do things, they go, I wish I wouldn't have done that. Yeah, here's the thing. You, you know, you. What happens in combat, you don't. There's no way to ultimately prepare for it. Like, you can get real close, you can get real close in preparation, but you can't, you can't fully do it because it doesn't matter how intense the training is. You're you're not going to die. Well, in. In, you can die parachuted, you can die fast rope, you can die in helicopter, but you're not. Statistically, yeah, statistically you're going to be okay. No one's trying to kill you. Let me put it that way. And even. It's funny, you know, I used to. I used to talk about how with like, either simunition or it kind of evens out, because, you know, if I'm sitting here when we're. We're playing Samuel, we're training with simunition, and there's, you know, rounds coming down the hallway. Well, I might stick my weapon out, start pulling the trigger, and then run across the hallway. And I think to myself, and I'd be watching guys doing this in training, I'd be like, okay, you would not have done that ever if there was real bullets. And also the guy that's shooting those bullets at you, when you stuck your. Your weapon out and started firing him, he would have taken cover too. So it kind of evens out a little bit. But you can get close, but you cannot simulate fully combat. And so people do things that they didn't expect people, things that do that. They go, I wish I would have performed differently. And I think the guys that have a hard time are guys that either, a, don't take ownership of what they did, or B, don't forgive themselves that they didn't perform how they wanted to perform or how they look back and how they wish they would have done something different. And I think that's a huge. You know, I. I can tell you all kinds of things. You know, people would ask me, like, is there anything you regret? It's like, well, yeah, I didn't bring home all my guys. Were you. You kidding me? Like, of course I would give anything.
- [146:16]
C
Yeah.
- [146:16]
A
To bring home all my guys. I guess I should say almost anything. Because what we have to do is our duty. And the only way. And it's not even a guarantee if you go into combat or you go into a war zone and you don't do your duty, I guess you can increase your chances of not taking any casualties. There still is chance, because you can get mortared. You know, you can get. There's all kinds of bad things can happen in a war zone. But if you say, oh, you know what? I'm just not gonna do my duty.
- [146:56]
C
Yeah.
- [146:59]
A
You'Re going to have to live with that.
- [147:01]
C
Yeah, you have to. You have to live with it. You have to live with everything. So for me, I ask Myself, how does thoughts, ideas and conversations. I asked myself, how is this helping me be better today? And if it's not, I'm not participating in it and I'm not having it, nor am I. Nor am I going to sit here and I'm going to entertain it. And I think what happens is. And where I used to do it a lot. A. I think you're right on the truth part, which is ultimately why I've always said I failed that day because that truth matters and to ignore the truth, and I feel like a fraud, it turns into all these other bullshit things. But I also think that if you change one thing that happened to you in your past, it changes everything. So I think it's unbecoming for you to ever regret. Like, to live with regret or to ever look back and want something changed. So, for example, let me ask you this. Would. If you talk. Because ultimately, if you. If you talk to your guys and let's say they lived, all of them.
- [148:32]
B
Live.
- [148:34]
C
And you weren't able to have the knowledge you did to help and impact the people that you have since then, would they. Would they want that? Or would you want that? Would you give that up? Would you give up the good that you've been able to do since then with the sacred knowledge that they gave their lives to teach you, to pass on? Would you give all that up for all the people that have wrote you, that you've helped and you've impacted in the secondary and tertiary events? Because that's what you're saying when you say these things.
- [149:02]
A
I would give it up in a heartbeat, of course, but they wouldn't let.
- [149:06]
C
But they wouldn't let you. And that's why I started with them, right?
- [149:11]
A
We.
- [149:11]
C
Ultimately, I would go back today, hands down, if you told me I could walk back in Gangegal today and take all their. Any. Any of their spots, dude, I would, you heartbeat. But you think they'd let me? No chance. No chance. Because you wouldn't let them, right? So my thing of it is, is absolutely truth. That's the hardest thing to swallow, you know, no matter how it feels, no matter how it makes you feel, no matter how ugly it is. Because also my superpower is that pain I felt by losing all my teammates. You know what I mean? Like, I walk in the room, jocko, you're not going to hurt. Like, I am not a. I'm not scared to die. I am. I'm not scared of what you think you might take from me, because here's what I do know. Is you can't take more from me than September 8, 2009. And I guarantee you that you. You've never felt that. And I can take a lot more from you than you'll ever be able to take from me. I can hurt you way more than I've been hurt, because I know what the depths of hell look like. And so it gives me a superpower of a concern that most people don't get to be able to overlook and override. And it's helped me in multiple situations since then. Right. And so I think that, like, for me, and I think a lot of guys, it's just like, we don't like, you know, I call it the Uncle Rico Syndrome. And you can do it with good and bad. It would be me living off of the regret of what happened that day is no different than me walking around and wearing the medal and telling you that I'm a Medal of Honor recipient walking in. They're both just one day of my life. And we're all going to be remembered as the sum of the good we can do in our lives. But the hardest thing, I think, for people to understand and come to terms with, and you're never going to be able to live a fulfilled life until you come to terms with this one statement. For something to live, something must die. And if you can't stomach that, you're always going to be at the hands of circumstances. But until you come to terms with that and you come to accept that in every way, shape, or form, for something to live, something must die. And that's the reality of everything in life. You can't give me one scenario where it's not the case. How often do we go to a funeral and we all come back and say we need to. It reminds us we lose somebody. Look, the Travis Manion Foundation. Look at the lives that things changed. You know what I mean? And it's like everything we do. For something to live, something must die. And it's a hard one to swallow. It's a hard one to take on, but it is the reality of life, and it's all the way down to good and evil. For good to live, evil is going to have to die. You know, for you to become the person you can become, you have to give up who you are now. For you to become anything in life, for you to truly embrace a new idea or new mindset, that old mindset must fully die. So for something to live, something must die. For something new to flourish, something must end. And it's no different with every day, for night to come, the day must end. You know what I mean?
- [153:07]
A
I've got a bunch of writing that my buddy Seth Stone did before he died. And that's one of the things he's. He wrote almost those exact words, but he's basically saying that he was changing and the old parts of him had to die in order for him to become who he had to become.
- [153:27]
C
Yeah, but isn't it true?
- [153:29]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [153:32]
C
Isn't it true? And it's hard. It's a hard one to take because. Because there I think. And I think it's comfort. Like, I think. I don't know. I think it's comfort. I think it's expectations that we put on ourselves. Unrealistic expectations. But again, it's a. It's a fine line. Because if you don't believe in the impossible, you'll never be able to perform. Like, you will never achieve more than you believe. You'll never achieve more than you believe. And so it's a hard one, because when you live by these beliefs and you have these high standards and these high expectations, when you don't meet them, it comes back and forth, and it's like. You know, I always talk about the hardest thing I think for me to get over was in the Marine Corps. Every. Every training event that I ever did. If you executed it the right way and you did your job, you're successful, right? And that's a mindset you have to have. But it's not always the truth, and it's not always happening that way, because guess what? The enemy gets a vote every time. And that's the difference in training versus reality. The enemy and circumstances get a vote. They get a play. You can't mimic it. And so while I don't think that we're always where we want to be, I do think that we are all where we are supposed to be. And it's on us to figure out why we're there and what good we're gonna do while we're there, because there's always the capability. I don't care if you're homeless on the side of the road, you can do something. As long as you have air in your lungs, like you say, you can do something, right? And you must.
- [155:28]
A
Yes, indeed, you must. If there's air in your lungs, you must. Probably a pretty good place to wrap it up.
- [155:37]
C
Let's do it.
- [155:39]
A
What else? What are you working on right now?
- [155:41]
C
And Just my sub stack. You know, I'm. I'm marining it out, you know, I got to join the Marines and come back in and how old are you? I'm 37.
- [155:49]
A
Check.
- [155:52]
C
Yeah, I go back to BRC and on in January.
- [155:56]
A
So is there an age cut off for brc? No, there's not.
- [156:01]
C
No.
- [156:01]
A
So it's just, just, just get some.
- [156:03]
C
Yeah, just get some. So, yeah, so I'm gonna go back and. And I gotta tell you, like, these kids today, they are the best of a generation. Like, they're the best. Like, they're, they're studs. They're incredible. And, and I think one of the biggest decisions that I of me rejoining was obviously I had more to give, but you know, at a time right now, especially like, I mean, I got my dad's shirt on, right. And as a father of daughters, for sure, you know, we're always fighting to, to figure out, influence what's going to influence our dog, our kids. Right. I mean, you're fighting it. We all fight what's going to influence them because something's going to influence.
- [156:39]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [156:40]
C
And I just, I always thought, you know, that if my kids would either grow up reading and knowing. Reading about people like the Marines, or they could grow up calling them their aunts and uncles. And I think that was probably the biggest deciding factor of me going back in was I wanted them to grow up. And, and these are the people they call their aunts and uncles. And they get to grow up knowing that real people like that exist.
- [157:11]
A
Yeah. That's awesome. So what do you do? Do you do like one weekend a month, two weeks in the summer times? Are you kind of like, I'm all over, right?
- [157:19]
C
Yeah, like, like we're, you know, I'm gonna be out here this weekend. I got pre dive in two weeks. It's a week long, right? I. And then once I get, once I get through brc, then I got sear school, I got jump, freefall and dive.
- [157:38]
A
That's so freaking crazy.
- [157:40]
C
I gotta get there.
- [157:40]
A
What's crazy about it isn't, isn't the tasks themselves, but it's just like, it's weird that you're 37 years old and you're going through those training blocks which are kind of aimed at like 20 to 24 year olds.
- [157:56]
C
Hey, these kids, they, it's a reality check. When they look at you and go, dude, I'm sorry, Mar. Like you're older than my mom. So it's like, it's a reality check. But, but it's been, you know, you know, God forbid, you know, and, and going to the recon side of it, you know, that's the reason I joined was I. I like those guys. I mean, those guys are. I mean, they are. They're like the legends into my generation. And so, like, to be able to. Hopefully, you know, I got to get through brc, but hopefully to become part of them and to be able to become part of that community. So. Awesome. And then, you know, you know, one of the agreements was, you know, because there's this misconception out there that. That a lot of people are saying, oh, you know, you're. You're not. You're not really doing anything or like, things like that. Like, I. I only agreed to join if they would allow me. Like, there's no restrictions because of the metal. No restrictions. Like, that was the agreement. There's actually a policy getting put in place right now to. To back that up with SEC War to make sure that it doesn't happen again, you know, because John Basilone ended up getting killed and he really screwed things up for the rest of us. And, you know, so, like, that was my. That was my. Was my piece that I wanted, was I wanted to come back in at the same rank I got out as. Right? Like, I didn't want to get moved up a rank because of my age and things like that or whatever. I didn't want any special treatment. And if my unit deploys, that there will be zero restrictions on me going back and deploying with my unit or whatever I. Whatever I'm part of. And they have. They agreed. It's the first time. I've asked this multiple times before, but this was the first time that the leadership agreed 100% to all that.
- [159:44]
A
Damn, dude.
- [159:46]
C
So, look, I'm just going to be honest with you. I. If we go back to where I'm going to send you pictures, I'm going to make you all just, like, regret that you're not part of it.
- [159:53]
A
Coming. I'll think of a machine gun, bro. I'm in. Right on. People can find you the interwebs. Dakota meyer.com. you got your substack, which is like, you just go to.
- [160:05]
C
You can just put substack.
- [160:06]
A
Go to Meyer and you'll find it.
- [160:08]
C
My Instagram.
- [160:09]
A
Instagram's Dakota Meyer 0317 and Twitter X Dakota Underscore. Meyer Echo. Yes, Gunny. Questions?
- [160:19]
B
Yep, real quick. Oh, gosh, rewind back to the old you, if you don't mind.
- [160:22]
C
Yeah.
- [160:24]
B
So when you were off the path back in the day, what was the heaviest you got up to?
- [160:28]
C
Probably 265.
- [160:30]
B
265 solid heavyweight.
- [160:32]
C
You've seen that picture?
- [160:33]
A
Damn, dude. 265.
- [160:36]
B
Yeah.
- [160:38]
A
When was that?
- [160:39]
B
That's a dirty bulk right there.
- [160:42]
C
Was that.
- [160:43]
A
Was that post metal? And you're a civilian just being a disaster.
- [160:46]
C
2014. Listen, you. When I show you this, you're going to pass out. I'm gonna send it to you just so you can look at it.
- [160:54]
A
You put that on my mirror? Yeah, Speaking of me, I was wanting to say this. Speaking of mirrors, you sitting here talking about the recon guys being legend, you might occasionally want to put. Take a look in the mirror before you roll to recognize that you're a little bit of a legend, so.
- [161:10]
C
Oh, well, no, no, no, no, no. These guys, you know, we were running down the road and. And like, you know, I. I. Obviously, I'm being a sergeant to these kids, and I ripped this one kid for, like, running with his phone or something.
- [161:21]
A
Dude, I bet he's so stoked. He went over, called his dad, hey, dude, Dakota Meyer freaking let me have it.
- [161:26]
C
Like, after I chewed him out, he goes. He goes, roger that, Sergeant. I said, you know why? I don't want you running with your phone? I said, I said, I don't care if you're texting your girlfriend or not. I said, but you fall and you hit your face. I said, then you ain't going to have any girlfriends. He's like, roger that, Sergeant. And then, like, I'm like. I started to walk off, and he goes, you know, I only joined the Marine Corps because of you. I was like, great, great. Oh, it's terrible.
- [161:51]
A
That's like. Yeah, I thought. I thought you were gonna say. He said, hey, Sergeant Meyer, can I get a picture with you before you leave? Oh, my. Hell yes, bro. We're looking at a picture, for those of you that can't see this right now, of a very plump. How tall are you?
- [162:09]
C
5 11?
- [162:11]
A
Yeah, dude, 265.
- [162:13]
B
Dirty, though.
- [162:14]
A
And not even. Yeah, you're not even looking like you're in your power lifting face.
- [162:18]
B
You know, that's the rest between sets phase right there.
- [162:21]
C
Yeah, that was. That was. Yeah, you know, but. But that's, you know, and. And. And what I want to tell. You know, we talked about the mental health piece, and I want to leave it at this. I want to say this up front. There was that. That guy right there, like, from the injuries I'd had and from the things I had listened to the system told.
- [162:44]
A
You that's who you had to be.
- [162:46]
C
Who I am today. That guy right there. Never believed it was possible. It wasn't that he didn't want to be, was the fact he didn't believe it was possible. Like, I remember I told this guy the other day, I work out at onit down there sometimes with Juan and Eric. I remember the first time I ran an entire mile after getting out without stopping. But I never believed that I could run another mile. I didn't think it was in my books anymore. You know, they wanted to fuse my back when I got out. Like, all these things, and I was on just drinking, and if it wasn't drinking, it was medications, and it was all these things that made me feel like shit. And. And all I was doing was talking to other people who were in the same position. I. I was what I was spending my time around. And once I got out of that, because those people I thought were supporting me, they. They weren't. What they were doing was, is we were codependent on each other. And it wasn't until, like, again, I met you. And then I got around guys that were like, they had done shit that I respected but were still out getting after it to show me what was possible, you know? But what I'll say to. If you're out there and you're struggling and you ever get to the mindset to where you don't think things can be better than where they are, you could be who you. You know, you could be. Understand that that is a. A limit that's put in by your mind. It's not reality. Like, that is. That is a boundary or that is a parameter. Because I could have never imagined me running. I mean, I just did an iron man a year ago. Like, I'm. I got to join the Marine Corps again. Like, all these things, I could have never, ever, ever. There was a point in my time where I didn't believe that I would be anything more than a guy that has nightmares every single day and drinks every single day. I thought that was the best that I could be. And I truly believed it with everything I had. And today I wake up every single day, and I live the best day of my life. Like, every day. I don't know the last time I've had a nightmare, I wake up, and I am thankful for what I have. I'm thankful for the moments. I'm thankful for my kids. I'm a good father. Like, all those things, and I wasn't always that. So where you're at right now, I promise you, I've been there. And what I'm telling you is Is that you can be where I'm at and it's not going to be found by other people. It's not going to be running around and doing hunting and fishing trips all the time. It's going to be looking in the mirror. It's going to be getting up every day with intentions and it's going to be looking at every decision and action food you put in your body and everything you do. And you're just asking yourself one simple question can get you there. Is this getting me closer to who I want to be or getting me further away from who I want to be? That is the ultimate question. If you just ask yourself that fucking question every day and every decision and every step you take, where you spend your time, who you're around, the conversations you have, what you consume on your Instagram. Is it helping me get to who I want to be? Or is it taking me further away from who I want to be? And then eliminate who's taken away from who you want to be and that'll get you to where I'm at.
- [166:05]
A
Well, there you have it, man. Freaking outstanding, dude. It's always good to see you. Thanks for coming back. Thanks for hanging out like the. Actually, I had not seen that picture before that you just showed me of you being fat and just like long, scraggly looking hair, faces all rosy from drinking. Like, I did not. I did. I knew you went through some rough patches, but I'd never seen that physical representation. And the fact that you're sitting here right now, freaking lean, mean, like, on track, dialed in. That's freaking awesome, man. It's freaking awesome. So hopefully people can listen to this. Hopefully people follow you. Check out your sub stack, learn your lessons learned. Thanks for everything you've done. Thanks for everything you did in the Marine Corps and thanks for everything you are continuing to do in the United States Marine Corps. Thanks for being, being one of my heroes and thanks for being one of my friends, brother.
- [167:02]
C
Thanks, man. I appreciate it.
- [167:02]
A
Appreciate it.
- [167:03]
C
Thanks.
- [167:05]
A
And with that, Dakota has left the building. He is en route to Camp Pendleton. Sergeant Dakota Meyer is en route to Camp Pendleton right now to go do some Marine Corps activities. Awesome. Awesome to have him here. Tell you what, that picture. Crazy, right?
- [167:25]
B
Yes.
- [167:25]
A
He pulled up that picture. Can you, can you put that on the podcast? Have him send it to you or something so people can watch it on the YouTube?
- [167:31]
B
Yes, I can.
- [167:32]
A
Maybe he doesn't want it out there publicly, but yeah, man, it's. It shows you, you know, what it is, is like you realize that it's, it's, it's hard to picture his words and what they mean until you see where he was and where he is. Yeah. It's like a visual representation of the power that we have when we start taking ownership of what's going on in the world and when we start asking what instead of asking why.
- [168:11]
B
Yeah.
- [168:12]
A
So good. And when that happens, there's going to be some physical activities. Running. Yes. Lifting.
- [168:20]
B
Yes.
- [168:21]
A
Sprinting.
- [168:22]
B
Habitually, by the way.
- [168:23]
A
Habitually. Doing jiu jitsu.
- [168:25]
B
Yeah.
- [168:25]
A
Training.
- [168:26]
B
Yeah. Hell yeah.
- [168:27]
A
Getting after it. When that happens, guess what else you're going to need. Guess.
- [168:31]
B
You want me to guess? Yeah, guess. Let me guess. Fuel.
- [168:34]
A
Yeah. You need some of that. So check out Jocko fuel. JockoFuel.com we have pretty much kind of everything that you need to get on that path and stay on that path. So you can go to joncofuel.com or you can go to your local store, whatever that store may be, whether it's Hy Vee, whether it's Walmart, whether it's Heb, Meyer, Harris. Harris, whatever. Wherever you live. Publix down in the southeast, we got you covered.
- [169:05]
B
Is military commissaries on base?
- [169:07]
A
Yes.
- [169:08]
B
That is.
- [169:08]
A
Yes, they're on base. Yep. And we're in pretty much all those. Even those are one of the few places that you can get jockey feel overseas like this overseas. So I get, I get messages from people that are overseas. We got it.
- [169:19]
B
Doing it.
- [169:20]
A
Little picture. So jockofuel.com check it out and get yourself on the path. Also check out Origin USA OriginUSA.com this is where you can get your training gear for the path. You need shirts, you need shorts, you need hunting gear, you need jeans, you need jacket.
- [169:39]
B
Yeah. Hell yeah.
- [169:39]
A
Winter's winter is coming.
- [169:42]
B
You utilized one of the jackets, that little lightweight.
- [169:46]
A
You were proven, you were proven right. One day out of the year you were correct. Correct. We'll take it one day out of the year you're correct. It was too warm for a heavy for a normal hoodie. And it was a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a chili woo. A little bit of a chili woo. So I put on. I put on the stow jacket. And by the way, it felt perfect.
- [170:09]
B
Yes, sir.
- [170:09]
A
Perfect because all that wind was cut back. The little breeze was cut back. So whatever you need. Don't get something that is made by slaves. Don't get something that is made by communists. Don't get made something that is made that will steal money from our country and give it to our adversaries. Don't do that. Buy something that is 100% American made. From the thread to the zipper to the cotton buttons to the buttons.
- [170:43]
B
Everything. Rivets.
- [170:44]
A
Rivets. Yeah, yeah. Rivets on the jeans. Everything's American made. OriginUSA.com get yourself some communist free goods.
- [170:51]
B
Commie free. What? That's what that jacket is called, the stowaway one. It's like a light. Yeah. Stow jacket. Yeah.
- [170:58]
A
So clutch.
- [171:00]
B
See how. And you. You put it into words. But this is something that I've recognized the value of for many years. So one of the scenarios you want to wear that jacket is on the plane because you know, sometimes in a hot like you know, we went to Vegas, it was an example where it's hot so they turn on the air in the plane, which I dig of course, but sometimes the thing is blowing on you a little bit kind of obliquely, kind of kind of defeating its own purpose, you know. So it's slightly too cold for just sitting there in the wind freaking tunnel. See what I'm saying?
- [171:28]
A
Yeah.
- [171:28]
B
But you put on that lightweight. Brett blocks it perfectly. So you're just sitting there in your own perfectly calibrated heat climate of your own climate, microclimate of your own body. And the. And the stojet.
- [171:43]
A
You can put that thing kind of in your pocket. Like a big pocket. Yeah, like.
- [171:46]
B
Okay, so perfect point. That's.
- [171:48]
A
I forgot to add, that's why it's called the stove.
- [171:50]
B
Yeah, you just put it right. I put in my computer bag. Doesn't even take up space, bro. Perfect, bro. Perfect. Whoever came up with that freaking credit.
- [171:58]
C
Good work.
- [171:59]
B
Credit. Also speaking of credit and good work. Jocastore.com.
- [172:05]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [172:05]
B
So you can get your apparel. Discipline equals freedom shirts. We got a new one out. Discipline equals freedom. 5.0.
- [172:12]
A
Check 5.0.
- [172:13]
B
5.0.
- [172:14]
A
We're there.
- [172:14]
B
I guess it's called 005 but I guess so it's kind of the same thing. Fifth version. Fifth class if you will. Nonetheless, good one mod 5.
- [172:22]
C
Mod 5.
- [172:23]
B
100. The good mod 3 is out. That's the most recent one. So that's a good one. Check it out there. The new mod or the new design with a new mod is stand by to get some. Okay, that's a new mod. Mod 2, mod 2. You know, it's been years but hey, it's going to be out. It's going to keep you get it. Stay on the lookout for that if you want to have the heads up. Get put your email in the little space on. On the front page or whatever. We'll. I'll just email you relevant stuff. No spam, just only relevant stuff. It won't come every day if you're expecting email. Every day or every. Even every week, bro. Sorry, I don't know. I don't do that kind of frequency. But when I send it, it'll count, I promise. Also, the jocko shirt locker. New design every month. Dave Burke. Good deal. Dave just sent me a text while we were recording, by the way, of this month's design. He said, this is a good idea. Which one? Design. I'll show it to you later.
- [173:16]
A
Don't be checking. Didn't you say occasionally shirts make it from the shirt locker to the public? Yep. And has that happened? Is this. We have one that's currently.
- [173:30]
B
Well, I.
- [173:30]
A
In the world.
- [173:31]
B
We are not making this a thing, but by the time this comes out, it'll have already. Ben. Done. But yes, the good. The good. So it doesn't have a mod, Right? So I guess it'd be the mod. Whatever. I don't know what it's. Anyway, it's called good hlp, short for High Level Problem. Not every problem is life and death. See what I'm saying? You're not always knocked in the dirt. You know, sometimes it's just like, you know, Dakota Myers protocol. It's an inconvenience. But sometimes in this cushy world we live in, which is real, by the way, you know, it's a. It's a delicate fabric. Sometimes these inconvenience can be good. And this is just a little reminder, even in those minor inconveniences, scenarios, there.
- [174:10]
A
Might be some good.
- [174:11]
B
We still got to lean on that good philosophy. You see what I'm saying? Anyway, that's what this shirt is. Representative. The main reason why I'm releasing it, though, to the public is because literally, for the past three years. Came out in 2022, by the way. For the past three years, every time someone apparently would see it, they'd email me or text me or whatever, take a picture of it, tag me and be like, where is this shirt? Where is this shirt? That shirt locker. Oh, by the way, three years ago. So I'm like, all right, you know, I'll just release it to everybody. Not. Not for a whole bunch of time, but, you know, we'll do it nonetheless. It's all on jockostore.com.
- [174:42]
A
Right on. So check that out. Also some books. Dakota Meyer, latest book. Why? To what? Check that one out. Also, Dave Burke. His new book, the need to Lead. Also, Things My Brother Used to say by Ryan Manion. Check that one out as well. Awesome for the kids. I've written a bunch of books too. I've written some kids books as well, so you can check those out as well if you want. Echelon Front, you heard us talk quite a bit about leadership today. All these principles, we teach them all the time. We teach the skills of leadership and we help your company, your team or your organization solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com and we can help you. And if you want to learn some of these skills in the comfort of your own home, go to extremeownership.com we have an online training program to teach the skills of leadership. And then also if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, want to help Gold Star families, Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org don't forget about Micah Fink's organization up there in Montana teaching people how to find their souls out in the wilderness. Heroesandhorses.org and finally, Jimmy May's organization Beyond the Brotherhood.org check out Ramadi reunion20.com if you were in Ramadi with the 11 ad at all or Gold Star families, check out Ramadi reunion20.Com January 16th and 17th, 2026, we're going to be down there meeting, mustering, getting together, sharing stories, reconnecting. If you want to connect with Dakota, check out his substack, substack Dakota Meyer. And then on the interwebs dakotamyer.com and he's on Facebook @dakota Meyer, Instagram dakotamyer0317 and Twitter X dakotamyer. And for us, check out jocko.com also. And then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink Echoes at Echo Charles. That's all I'm going to say about that. Once again, thanks to my brother Dakota. Incredible example of heroism, of humility and of leadership. And it is an honor to be able to call you a friend. Thanks to all of our military personnel out there across the globe protecting freedom, protecting our way of life. Of course, a little special shout out to the United States Marine Corps, always faithful. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all of the first responders. We're grateful for what you do every day to keep us safe. So thank you. Special shout out to those firefighters. You heard what they go through every day from Dakota. It's a rough job. Thank you for what you do and for everyone else out there. Here's one more quote from Dakota's book, why to what he says. Quote when people tell me that they're in a situation or place they can't change, I ask them to consider the mission at hand. I ask whether the place they're in and the support it lends or doesn't lend is conducive to the mission. If it's not, I ask if they're in a position to alter their place they're in. If they aren't, I ask what they could do to make a change possible. They tell me they can't change their position. I ask them if they're both bound by law. Because unless you're in prison or dead, there's no position you can't change and no place you can't leave. End quote. And that kind of sounds like it's on you. Put yourself in the place you want to be in, create the situation you want to have. That is ownership. And it's on you. And that's all I've got for tonight. Until next time. This is Echo and Jocko out.