C (2:58)

No, I mean back in 2020. Let's see, what was it? What I did between 2020. You know, the failed congressional run.

A (3:08)

Oh, yeah, that's right.

C (3:09)

Gladly failed.

A (3:10)

We're happy you failed that. You don't want to enter that very world right there.

C (3:15)

And then did motivational speaking for a couple years and then had that faithful run in with you and Leif at battlefield. At the battlefield that started the. So, yeah, it's been a. It's been a few years.

A (3:30)

And you just been getting after it.

C (3:32)

Yeah.

A (3:32)

So listen, if you're listening to this and you want to hear about the early parts of Rob life, Rob's life, go listen to those earlier episodes. You can hear about how Rob grew up. You can hear about how he decided to go in the Marine Corps. You can hear about his first deployment to Iraq. But this new book is great. It really covers again to me, it's like a way to overcome things mentally and physically that you are unmatched in that field. So if you want to. If people are listening and they want to learn that about that, this is the place to do it. So we're gonna pick up the book, picks up on deployment in Afghanistan. And we're just gonna go to the book.

C (4:14)

Let's go to the book. Back to the book.

A (4:15)

Back to the book, as they say. We're going back to the book, as we used to say. We haven't said in a while. Here we go. My best friend, Daniel Jones, coincidentally. Are you guys just brothers? Like, as soon as you meet each other, when you meet Daniel, when Rob Jones meet Daniel Jones, it's just like, where do you have that certain. Like when you see someone when you're driving a. Like a certain type of car and you see someone else driving that certain type of car, you give a little head nod, basically.

C (4:39)

I mean, when. Yeah, we became very fast friends because you're both into working out, both good at running, both named Jones. And there was one time we were both in the same squad. There was one time on our pre deployment training that our platoon sergeant, we were hap. I don't know. Did you have kill cards in Ramadi?

A (4:55)

No.

C (4:56)

It was like, you know, everybody used to have dog tags. But then when I went in 2008, they started using this thing called the kill card. Didn't have them all the same information, basically, but for whatever reason, they had you put it in your arm pocket and you had to have them. So he was the platoon sergeant was doing a little test, but for some reason, he decided to steal Daniels out of his arm pocket and then have everybody land line up. And he was going to check everybody and then he was going to catch him. I don't know what the. The goal was, but Daniel realized he didn't have his. Everybody had four, so I took out two of mine. I was like, here, take these, fold them over and it'll feel like four when he feels it. And then. But he. The platoon sergeant knew that he had taken Daniels out, so he took him out.

A (5:42)

Did you guys know he had taken him out or you just thought he just forgot his card somewhere? He's like, I don't remember.

C (5:47)

I don't remember whether or not we knew. I mean, Daniel knew that they should have been in there, but.

A (5:52)

Because this could be an integrity violation coming your way.

C (5:55)

Yeah, but. Yeah, but the platoon sergeant knew that he took him out. So he felt the pocket and he was like, you don't have them. And then he took the two out and saw the word my name. He was like, God damn it. Jones and Jones, the only team in the Marine Corps. So, yeah, we've been. We've been best friends ever since.

A (6:15)

Ever since then, unfortunately. I never met another person in the military with a last name Willink. I did meet a person. I did meet a person a little while ago at an event that came up to me, and this woman's last name was Willink. And I was super stoked. I never met another Willink in the wild. I never met another Willink in the wild.

C (6:30)

Have you met another jocko?

A (6:32)

There is a monkey at Seal Team. At Seal Team 2. I didn't meet it, but the guys from Vietnam, the Vietnam guys in From Seal Team 2 brought home a monkey and they had it on the. And apparently he was, like, really pissed off and they had it chained up and it would, like throw its at people and was all crazy. But that monkey's name was Jocko, which the Vietnam guys told me. So I. And there's another guy. Yeah, I've met, like, I probably met one or two other jockos along the way.

C (7:01)

That's crazy.

A (7:02)

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, it's a little easier to meet people with your name when your name is Jones.

C (7:07)

Yeah. Rob Jones, too.

A (7:09)

Yeah.

C (7:09)

This isn't even a real name.

A (7:12)

So going back to the book, my best friend Daniel Jones sat next to me. How you holding up? He asked. Pretty rough. My body's covered in sand fleas, which I've scratched to the point that My skin is raw, my hips and shoulders are chafed to shredded from my gear rubbing, and my back and feet are killing me. All the Afghani well water we drank gave me dysentery, so I feel like I could crap my pants at any moment. You? I asked. Same, but I do it all again in a heartbeat, he replied. Hell yeah. This could be the happiest I've been in my adult life. Out in the middle of nowhere with my brothers, who I'd happily die for fighting evil with the greatest sense of purpose I've ever felt. Makes the heat, the pain and the diarrhea worth it, I said. Right on, homie. Speaking of which. He stood. Good luck with that, I said, smirking as he walked away. So. So there you go. That's what you're, that's what you're up to. Chafed, diarrhea, freaking just in the shit, literally.

C (8:14)

I won't go into all the details on the various ways that we took care of that on that push, but, you know, slit trenches and that kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, talking about how to overcome things, all that stuff didn't matter because I was out there for a purpose that I believed in, I cared about, and I was doing it with people that I cared about more than myself. So all that, all those little trifling inconveniences were not even a big deal.

A (8:39)

Yeah, it's kind of weird. It's like when something bothers you, you know, you have some like, piece of gear that's rubbing you weird and look, if it persists for a really long time, it'll leave a mark. But even it leaves a mark, like eventually you just forget about it. Eventually it just becomes. It just kind of goes numb. And this is when your whole like, brain goes kind of dumb because everything sucks. Nothing feels good. It's either too hot or in the military, it's almost always too hot or too cold, too wet or too dry. You're either it. Like, you know, even just before we hit record, we were talking about the fact that only in the military do you get stuck in situations where you have to piss so bad but you can't. Like there's nothing worse. You're going on, like, let's say a three or four day reconnaissance and you're doing a helicopter insert and so you don't want to, you want to, you want to be hydrated when you go in. So before you get in the helicopter, you're pounding water, as much water as you possibly can, and you get in the helicopter and then like 14 minutes into the helicopter ride, you're like, oh, dude, I got a piss. And it goes. It's like painful. I've gotten off of hilos and like, like ran. And just as I'm un unzipping or unbuttoning my freaking pants just to piss. Because it's just agony.

C (10:00)

Yeah.

A (10:01)

But for some reason, and this is what I think it's cool that you point out like for some reason when you're doing something that you want to be doing and it just makes it. That's part of what kind of makes it fun. And the fact that you guys are joking about it is just the way it is.

C (10:14)

Yeah, Yeah. I mean there's all sorts of stuff like that. And on deployment in the Marine Corps and in the military, it's just like, it really, really, really sucked. It's like it get. At first it sucks and then it gets so bad that it's funny. And then if it continues to get worse, then you kind of get pissed off again. But vast majority of the time you're in that kind of. It's so bad, it's funny type of situation. Especially in the Marine Corps.

A (10:36)

Yeah, it's always funny. Like even anything that's bad that's happening to your friends when, you know, like I had guys like step into like those creeks in Iraq.

C (10:48)

Yeah.

A (10:49)

And you can see a guy like disappear in front of you, you go, oh. And then you smell it and you're like, oh, freaking. Just gnarly. But it's, let's face it, it's hilarious. And you're just laughing. That's the way it is, the way you frame it. If you frame misery, you'll have misery. If you frame good times, you'll have good times. And by the way, I'm get this book. There's so much just, just so much good information here. I'm gonna fast forward a little bit. You're clearing some clearing for some IDs. I took a six inch step. Everything went black. Two things happened simultaneously when the ID exploded. First, the shockwave cut through my toes, severing them. It didn't slow as it cut through my shins, severing them. Next, it sent dirt, grit and shrapnel upward into my legs, buttocks and any other part of my body that was exposed. Next, it launched me a few feet into the air and deposited me onto the ground. Unconscious blood was pouring out of my arteries and into the dirt. Muscle and bone dangled from the remnants of my legs. Vicious bacteria invaded the new openings the dust rose and settled. I woke up. You're. When you wake up, how long does it take you to recognize that your legs are gone.

C (12:10)

Consciously? I think it was pretty instantaneous. I mean, even I describe in the book, you know, the, the scene, the first thing I started doing, my eyes open. The first thing I remember after, it's like I'm. I'm sweeping and then instantly teleported. Screaming. So there's no, nothing happened between the.

A (12:31)

From my experience, as you were going through the air. Oh, as you did you. Did you recognize, like I just hit an id?

C (12:39)

Yeah. I mean, so I woke up screaming.

A (12:41)

And even though before you woke up, were you like. No, it was just like boom.

C (12:45)

No, I don't, I don't have any, any memory of any explosions, flying through the air, anything. So I'm like, I'm literally standing up, doing what I'm supposed to do. And then an instant later, with no knowledge, no knowledge whatsoever, it's like I teleported. And yeah, somebody magicked me on my back, screaming. And I think, yeah, even. Even through that, my body was just viscerally reacting to all the damage that had been done, you know, all the way. Very, very, very deep down, my conscious mind was in there somewhere. It like been retracted back, you know, forcefully detached from. From everything. But even though it was, it was retracted all the way back, I could tell, I just. Intrinsically I knew it's just like one of those. I didn't have a conscious thought, but I just remember my memory is. I knew it just intrinsically I, I.

A (13:36)

Would think part of my brain when I read this is like knowing that when you get a femoral artery bleed, you have like a minute or two to live before you bleed out. Right now you have two of those. Yeah, I would think you, you. My thought would be like, oh yeah, I'm definitely not gonna live because I've got blood spurting out of both of my legs, through, through my veins and my legs. This is not, this is not good.

C (14:06)

I did not have thoughts like that. I never remember having the thought I might die, but it's never occurred to me that I might. But that being said, I mean, it's not as if I stepped on the IED and people were able to just run over immediately help me, you know, I mean, you know that when the I. When the Taliban planted one, they plant two, three, they put them in clusters because they knew that our natural tendency would be to run over there and help the guy that got down. So they had to wait for another Engineer to come over and use a metal detector to. To get to me. And then they were able to come over and put, you know, I think, two tourniquets on each leg. But I don't remember during that ever thinking to myself, oh, you might die. I just always assumed I was going to survive.

A (14:50)

It's weird, too. They figured out, like, I think from our wars, they figured out that, like, your veins will retract and slow down some of that bleeding just naturally. Yeah. So that's. That's, you know, you might be able to live a little bit longer, right? Yeah. Well, apparently you didn't think you were going to die, because I'm going to go back to the book here, and one of your guys comes over and you say, just kill me. Negative, brother. Kill me, man. I said, I don't want to be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life. My mom's going to have to take care of me like a baby. Put a bullet in my grape. I don't want to live like this. So you definitely had the thought of, like, you. You saw the rest of your life in a pretty negative viewpoint at that. At that moment in time.

C (15:38)

Admittedly very ignorant about what life was like as an amputee or as a disabled person generally. And, yeah, so what I did in that moment was I projected what my future was going to be like. Just sitting there, just having lost my legs. I went, all right, well, this means that this is going to happen. This is going to happen. This is going to happen. And if that's going to be my life, then I don't want to be alive anymore. And I think I texted you about this a while ago about how. How that relates to the open mind. I mean, what. Basically what I did was I decided this is what my future is going to be like. When I made that decision, the mind closed, and I wasn't willing to consider anything else. So I was. I just went, all right, this is what's going to happen. Kill me, because that's what's going to happen. So literally, I mean, in that situation, the closed mind equals death.

A (16:25)

Yeah.

C (16:26)

I think that's what I said and what I had to do. Luckily, they didn't listen to me. It's stupid that I even thought that they would. You know what I mean?

A (16:37)

Yeah.

C (16:38)

But. Yeah, but then between then and waking up in the hospital two days later, somehow my mind reopened.

A (16:43)

Yeah. Yeah. It's weird when. When people have. Whatever thoughts they're having, it can be really difficult to get them out of those out of the world that they're living in, out of the cloud that their head is in, out of the reality that they think they're living in.

C (16:58)

Yeah.

A (16:59)

And from the outside, it's so easy to look at someone like, hey, dude, that girl's not good for you. Or, hey, you need to slow down on the drinking, or maybe stop completely. Or, hey, you need to get your finances under control. It's so obvious. Like, any. Anyone could look at a person in a bad situation and go, oh, I s. Hey, you know, this job that you have that's making you miserable, you need to figure out a new job. Or, you know, this relationship that you're in that you're complaining about all the time and it's driving you crazy, like, you should not be in that anymore. And they're thinking they can't get out of it. There's nothing they can do. And it's like, no, actually, you can. You just need to open your mind up a little bit and see what the possibilities are.

C (17:36)

Yeah. It's like you decide something and then you commit to it, and then once you've committed to it, you don't want to change your mind.

A (17:40)

Yeah.

C (17:41)

And then you unfortunately do commit to something that's really bad, and you just like, well, this is just who I am, or this is the way things are, and I just have to accept it when. If you just open your mind a little bit, you can see that there's another path.

A (17:55)

Yeah. How much did you know about, like, the prosthetics and all that stuff at this point?

C (18:02)

I mean, literally nothing. The interesting thing is, what year is this? This is 2010.

A (18:07)

Yeah. So I guess it's not too widespread yet.

C (18:10)

I don't. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those weird things why you don't see a certain car, and then all of a sudden, once you think about it, you see it all over the place. I literally. I think I have one memory of seeing one amputee, you know, in my life once, and that was it. And then, obviously, after I was wounded, they're all over the place, but I didn't know anything. But I did know that there's a. There's going to be a difference between above the knee and below the knee. And I remember saying to people before I left, knowing that as a combat engineer, there's a high likelihood you're going to step on an ied. I remember saying to people, I'm fine if I step on an IED and lose my legs below the knee, but above the Knee that wouldn't. I don't want to do that. So that probably played into that. I don't remember really having that conscious thought in there, but it was probably something that was in my mind.

A (19:02)

Yeah, you got the. You got the bonus program above the knee.

C (19:06)

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I don't know if you're going to read this part, but. But they were below. I asked my friends, are they above or below the knee? Because that was in my mind, obviously, are they above or below the knee? But they said they're below the knee. Don't worry about it. They're a few inches below the knee. But I mentioned the infections, and for various reasons, they have to amputate higher a lot of the time.

A (19:31)

So you just mentioned that as a combat engineer, there's a chance that this could happen. But were you hearing about this guy's this happening to guys? Like, how often were you going, oh, yeah, three guys got wounded, they lost their legs. As a combat engineer?

C (19:49)

Yeah, no, we heard about it a lot. I mean, from the guys that came that we ripped out with, they lost some people. I mean, there was a guy that was not a combat engineer that did an IED sweep just with a metal detector that got completely pulverized by an ied. So, yeah, I mean, we. We heard plenty about it. People losing limbs, and it was pretty okay.

A (20:13)

So I was talking to a young military personnel the other day and, oh, clearly coming out of Ukraine, a lot of the training that they're doing nowadays involves drones. And so they'll be like, in the field, you know, let's say on a patrol or something like that. And all of a sudden they'll hear, like, and it's a drone coming to get them. And of course, it's training operations, but. And I was like, damn, you know, that sounds horrifying. And then I thought about it more, and I was like, you know, it's there. And I was thinking, when you're walking down the street in Iraq, or for you, in Afghanistan and Iraq. For me, it's just Iraq. But when you're walking down the street, you don't hear any. You don't see anything.

C (20:59)

No.

A (20:59)

But literally every step that you take, there is a chance that this may be the step that you detonate an ied. What do you find more terrifying?

C (21:13)

The noise or not the noise?

A (21:14)

Yeah, the drone. That is the scary thing, I guess, about the drone is that it's going to follow you. It's going to, like, you can't really get away from it, like if you see an id, you can avoid it.

C (21:24)

Yeah.

A (21:25)

You can blow it in place if you see it, but if you don't see it, you're. It just happens.

C (21:31)

I'd say the drone, because when you hear the, you know it's there. It's guaranteed it's there and it's coming for you. Whereas with the IED situation, you can at least kind of in the back of your mind say to yourself that's.

A (21:45)

Probably not just lie to yourself.

C (21:48)

But I mean. Okay, but that's just normal. But then what's scarier between walking into a minefield knowing that somebody just stepped on one over there? Yeah, maybe that might be scarier than the drone. I don't know. But even then, even then you can still kind of be in denial.

A (22:05)

Yep.

C (22:05)

So I'd say probably the drone. And what are the drones are gonna drop a bomb?

A (22:09)

Drop bombs or some sometimes. Now they just like literally hit you too. They have like kamikaze drones are just gonna detonate when they hit you. They'll just land them on you and they detonate. Do you seen the videos of Ukraine?

C (22:19)

Yeah, some of them.

A (22:20)

Yeah. It's very hard.

C (22:22)

Do they have shotguns or something for that?

A (22:24)

They're getting it. There's counters coming up. Not right now. You know, they're coming up with counters to it all. So the weird thing is, is the original ones were radio controlled, but the radio, they blocked the radio waves. And so now they're almost all controlled by these little tiny filaments which can be like miles long. So they control by these little tiny filaments a wire? Yes, yes. But it looks like a spider web, like, like thin as a spider web. And that spider web material is all over the battlefield now because those drones are just everywhere.

C (22:53)

But it's connected to like a remote control. That's crazy.

A (22:56)

Yep, it is. Crazy things going on.

C (23:00)

Well, it's the same exact thing though. I mean, we start. We started blocking radio waves for IEDs and they just went to low metal signature pressure plates and that's what they did. Eventually we kind of settled in this place where there wasn't going to be a whole lot more that we could do. Not a whole lot more that they could do.

A (23:14)

Did you ever get the forensics on the IED that you stepped on or.

C (23:18)

No, they didn't do a post blast analysis on it because we were literally in the middle of a mission. So they just had to keep moving forward. So it was either some sort of. I imagine it was just a landmine. Or, you know, what they were doing over there was plus bottles, shampoo bottles, you know, cut it in half, zigzag the wire across the top and the bottom. Oh, yeah, fold it back together, tape it up, bury it. That's what I assume that's just what the, you know, TTP was. So I assume it's something like that. It very well could have been a radio controlled ied. Makes me feel better to think that it might have been a radio controlled IED and I didn't just miss it and step on it. But unfortunately, that's probably not the reality.

A (24:02)

Hey, you got to tell yourself whatever you're going to tell yourself.

C (24:04)

Yeah, that's why I start all my workshops. When I do a workshop, I'll gauge the audience. I'll say, you know, I was a combat engineer. Is my job to go out, try and find hidden improvised explosive devices. And as you can see, I wasn't very good at it. And if I get a big laugh, I'm like, this is going to be a fun workshop. And then if I don't like, all right, I got some work to do to.

A (24:21)

How many you think you found in your career besides that one that we.

C (24:26)

I did a lot of searching. And you never, you never found one? No.

A (24:30)

That's crazy.

C (24:31)

That's it. First one, that, first live one that was in my path.

A (24:35)

No kidding.

C (24:36)

Yeah. That's crazy because even.

A (24:39)

Yeah, like, we, we rolled over some that we, like the combat engineers would find kind of like in our vicinity.

C (24:46)

Yeah.

A (24:47)

I had, I had my EOD guys dismantle some IEDs. We did an operation one time where there was one that was planted in a, in like a, A little vase or not a vase, but a pot, a potted plant.

C (25:00)

Right.

A (25:00)

Like right outside of where, where a assault team would, where we did stack when we entered this building. Yeah, there's an ID there. And we found it after we cleared the building and the guy had cut a little hole in the curtain and he was looking out with the plug, getting ready to plug this thing in and detonate it. So. So you didn't find any?

C (25:20)

That would have been, that would have been a little bit easier to accept that I stepped on one. At least I had found a couple.

A (25:26)

That's crazy because how many, I mean, you must have cleared miles and how many.

C (25:30)

I did a lot of looking a lot of clearing buildings before, you know, sniper set up in it and whatever. And yeah, lots of. Every time we went over a bridge, I would clear. Every time we went through any kind of Choke point. I would go through first and clear.

A (25:44)

It and not never know. That's amazing.

C (25:46)

The first one that.

A (25:47)

Yeah, especially because IDs were so prevalent.

C (25:50)

I know other people were finding them all over the place. Just one of those things where it just so happened that the places I was looking didn't have any. And then that one time.

A (25:59)

Now, part of that. Did you guys. Did you guys do route analysis as you were going in somewhere to say like, hey, let's take this path over here versus that path over there? Or would you just look at and go, hey, this is where we're going? Yeah.

C (26:10)

I mean, eventually, not so much in Delaron, where we started, but then in Sangin when it was a lot more crazy. There are a lot more IEDs we did, but there was a lot of rivers and creeks and stuff. So unfortunately, a lot of times you can't really be too selective. You have to go over the bridge or you have to go in certain spots. Now eventually they started walking in the creek because a lot of the creeks weren't that deep. So they would just get to places, they'd walk in the creek and they'd pop out somewhere and that's what they ended up doing. But yeah, a lot of the times that's what they call them choke points because, you know, the terrain essentially forces you to go in a certain spot. And that's why the Taliban would watch. And they go, all right, we're going to put it there or there. And there's.

A (26:53)

Dude, you were so you were super lucky until you weren't.

C (26:55)

Yeah, exactly.

A (26:56)

That's basically what it sounds like. All right, fast forward a little bit. Waking up Monstuhl Germany alive. My eyes creaked open, waking me from a thousand year sleep. My head like felt like I drank a thousand beers. No matter how many times, nor how hard I blinked my eyes, they wouldn't focus. I tried to lift my head, but it felt like I weighed a ton. So I settled back down on my pillow. Do you know where you are at this point when you wake up in Germany?

C (27:20)

I don't know that I'm in Germany. I know I'm in a hospital, I think. But yeah, somebody had to tell me I was in Germany. But yeah, I would. I just knew I was in the hospital.

A (27:31)

And this is when you get told that you got amputated above the knee.

C (27:34)

Yeah.

A (27:35)

And that's where you're kind of like, no, no, it's below the knee. And they're like, no, it's not.

C (27:39)

Sorry.

A (27:40)

And there is a huge for people that are listening, that don't know, like, if it's below the knee, it's. You can have a lot more mobility because you have your knee.

C (27:48)

Yeah, you have the knees. You have the. You have. You have the quad and the hamstring that can. You can jump, you can run easily, you can run in whatever foot. You can squat down, you can take a knee easily, all that kind of stuff. But, yeah, once you. Once you go above the knee, you don't have any kind of control to balance. So you lose a lot of capability.

A (28:13)

Fast forward a little bit more. National Naval Medical Center Bethesda, Maryland Surgery I awoke in what appeared to be the back of a giant ambulance. My eyes wouldn't stay open for more than several seconds. I felt even higher on. How do you say this drug? Dilaudid. Dilaudid.

C (28:29)

That's how I say it. Dilaudid. Yeah.

A (28:30)

How does everyone else say, I have no idea.

C (28:34)

It's probably that, but I only know how I say it.

A (28:37)

I felt even higher on Dilaudid than I had before. Head in Germany. I felt my bed rolling in the direction of my head and saw daylight creeping further toward the ceiling on the of the ambulance. As I rolled, I felt my stretcher roll down the ambulance's ramp as sunlight filled my eyes. When the gurney leveled out on the ground, I heard my mom's voice. We're here, Robbie. We're here. I managed to turn my weak neck to the right and saw my mom, my little brother Stevie, my stepdad Steve, my stepdad Steve, my dad, and my stepmom, Karen. I tried to reply, but my mouth was immobilized by the Dilaudid. I felt my mom grab my hand briefly as she said, we love you, before my gurney was rushed beyond their sight and I passed out again. So that's what you're coming home to?

C (29:23)

Yeah. It was a real quick visit. And they had to get me into the post surgical or the surgical word, or the icu.

A (29:29)

And they have all kinds of work to do on you?

C (29:32)

Yeah, I mean, they've already been doing work. I mean, I think I. Based on reading my medical records, that I went from site of injury to, I think, Camp Leatherneck or maybe Bagram. And that's where they did the first couple surgeries, where they revised my injury to above the knee, I think, and did all sorts of other stuff. And then they. I don't think they did much in Germany. I think I remember I was there for 12 hours or something in Germany.

A (29:57)

Just getting you stabilized enough to go Stabilized, Yeah.

C (30:00)

Waiting for my flight to America. They try and get you back as fast as possible, but then, yeah, they got to do. I was in surgery every day for the first week doing all sorts. Yeah, all sorts of stuff. Revisions and debridements and, you know, they put the colostomy in and all the various things.

A (30:18)

Yeah, that's weird. You write about this in here. Is like, they do. They give you the colostomy bag just because it's more sanitary.

C (30:26)

Yeah, because I had a lot of injury in my. On my buttock, so a lot of shrapnel. And so there was a. There were a couple big gashes, you know, close to the anus, and they didn't. Yet. They didn't want me pooping out of there and getting it infected. And also, just logistically speaking, it would be a lot easier. It's. It would be really hard for me to be able to get out of the. Out of bed and to the bathroom. I couldn't get out of bed for the first two weeks. This wasn't really possible. So I think that's probably the standard practice. They diverted it.

A (30:53)

That's crazy that. That's like a procedure that they're just chalking up for, like, hey, this is going to be logistically more easy. It's logistically more easy to read. You know, redirect. I know, Freaking colon to come out the side of your body into a bag.

C (31:07)

Stomach.

A (31:08)

Yeah, that's. That's kind of crazy.

C (31:10)

That easier just to take your. All your guts and put them on a table and then do this and then put them back in.

A (31:15)

Gosh.

C (31:16)

Yeah.

A (31:16)

It shows you how jacked up you were. If that's. If that's what they're doing to, you know, like, that's just crazy.

C (31:22)

Yeah, I was pretty. I was very lucky, though, that, you know. No, the legs are pretty much the only thing, you know, permanent. Like, I didn't lose any fingers. Vision was good hearing, you know, lost both my eardrums. But that was repairable, you know, pretty easily.

A (31:40)

I think you were in long stool for only 12 hours because a lot of people get stuck there because they're trying to get them stable.

C (31:45)

Yeah, that. Yeah. Yeah.

A (31:46)

Because of all the injury, like all the other injuries that they have besides the amputation.

C (31:50)

Yeah.

A (31:51)

So were you just tougher?

C (31:53)

Yeah, I mean, that. I. That's my only explanation for it is just kind of a, you know, super tough guy.

A (32:01)

And you mentioned, like, that your attitude. Like, at what point did your attitude go from, like, hey, just freaking put a bullet in my grape. Those are your words, not mine. At what point did you transition mentally from, like, all right, well, this is where I'm at.

C (32:18)

Think waking up in Germany. I mean, yeah, basically once I went unconscious in the back of the tank that took me to the helicopter. That's really the last time I remember feeling especially in despair. And then from then on, I woke up in Germany, and I don't remember having the conscious thought, but essentially the feeling was, I'm alive now. Now I still. I'm. I'm alive. I'm not gonna die. Clearly. My heart's gonna keep beating, My lungs are gonna keep breathing, so I still want to have a good life. So, boom, that was it. And. All right, well, how do I have a good life? And the first thing I, you know, look to do is help my mom out a little bit and help her feel better and ask for that funny hat and everything.

A (32:59)

Yeah, yeah. That's a great part of the book. Get the book. If you're listening to this right now, like, there's so many details, this story that you tell about, you know, you want to cheer up your mom, so you want a funny hat, and she's the one that ends up with a funn bringing it to you.

C (33:15)

Yeah, they didn't have one in the hospital, Believe it or not. They couldn't find me a funny hat. It's ridiculous.

A (33:22)

Eventually, fast forward a little bit. You're heading up to the fifth floor, and this is where amputees go after they're stabilized. So that's a good. A good sign. Meanwhile, dude, like, we already talked about the. The colostomy bag. You got the catheter. You got the wound vac machines. Like, this sounds freaking terrible.

C (33:45)

Yeah. More tubes come on my body than I had limbs, but, yeah, what did I have? I had the catheter colostomy. The two wound vac machines, which are just little machines that they put on you to. It just sucks all the pus out. They would change. I had the breathing tube, and, I mean, in the icu, I had the feeding tube too, but when I got to the fifth floor, I just had, you know, the. I had the IV, the wound backs, and the catheter was pretty much the main things that I had. And then one I was most concerned about was the catheter, obviously, like, do not touch that.

A (34:20)

Dude. Knock on wood. I've never had one of those.

C (34:22)

Yeah, I remember. I remember one time I was going in for. I was basically in that first month. I was in for surgeries every other Day to do stuff. And eventually the doctor came in and said, we're gonna be doing your surgery tomorrow. And I went, do you think I need this catheter anymore? And he went, yeah, probably not. And went, can you take it out? You know, when I'm under? Because my friend Daniel, he got wounded a little bit before me. Not as bad.

A (34:43)

Was that Daniel Jones?

C (34:44)

Daniel Jones, yeah. He got wounded about 45 minutes before me. Has all of his limbs and everything.

A (34:50)

How did he get wounded?

C (34:52)

They got ambushed.

A (34:54)

Okay. Did he get shot or blowed up?

C (34:55)

He got. I. Well, an Afghani soldier stepped on an ied. What they would. The Taliban would like to do is they plant the ied and they'd ambush you at that spot, knowing that you'd run to cover where the IED was. So that's what happened. So the guy just stepped on an IED when he was running for cover, hit Daniel. But he told. He had a catheter, too. And he told me when I was visiting him one time that they took it out when he was conscious, and I was like, I do not want that to happen to me.

A (35:22)

So did the doc hook you up or what?

C (35:23)

He hooked me up. Yeah. I woke up then I was like, yes, doubt. Then it took another three, four months before the colostomy went away.

A (35:35)

Speaking of which, a couple guys visit you in your room, and speaking to Daniel, you send him a message, you said. And they. They have an iPhone or some kind of cell phone, and they want you to record them a message. And you say, hey, man, first things, we got to design a workout. A workout program to get on our feet again. And then we really have to have a good time up in here. I can't wait to see you. I'm thinking about you. Peace. So straight out of the gate, you're like, all right, workout. That's what we're gonna do.

C (36:02)

Workout program.

A (36:04)

Did you. You mentioned that he liked to work out. Had you guys worked out? Like, was that you guys were doing.

C (36:08)

That was our thing. Yeah. In Iraq, you know, we had. It was kind of calm there. So we had a. Our platoon had a gym. So when we were both at, you know, the FOB or whatever, we would do some CrossFit workouts and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, we were always. That. We were. That's one of the ways that we were intrinsically linked.

A (36:24)

And eventually, you guys were doing Jim Jones. Was that him?

C (36:29)

Yeah, we. Yeah, we went on the Jim Jones website.

A (36:31)

Daniel Jones. Rob Jones.

C (36:33)

Yeah, we called ourselves Jones Jim. So we would. Yeah, we just go to the gym and I would literally just find a Jim Jones, you know, workout that they would post on their website that looked fun to do. And I would be like, this is what we're doing today.

A (36:46)

Boom.

C (36:46)

And then we would just do it. So, yeah, that's probably where the workout program comment mostly came from because we would work out together.

A (36:55)

Fast forward a little bit. You're checking out your computer. After an hour of reading messages, checking emails and browsing, I typed Disabled working out into Google. A few pages down was a Wikipedia article entire titled Paralympic Games. I clicked it. Interesting. I said to dad after reading the introduction, did you know there's an Olympic Games for people with disabilities? Really? He leaned over to see my screen. That's neat. What sports do they have? All kinds of them. I scrolled down the page. Oh, hey, they have rowing. Are you interested in that? I mean, I'm interested in doing hard workouts again. I do remember rowing machine was always tough. Seeing it here means maybe I could at least do rowing workouts. Still, the old concept to rower, the.

C (37:34)

Whole concept to the. The tried and true. Yeah, that's one of the things I did a lot of when I was getting into CrossFit and Jim Jones stuff was the rowing machine.

A (37:43)

The rowing machine sucks.

C (37:44)

Yeah. That's why I wanted to do it.

A (37:46)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

C (37:47)

I was like, I got to figure out a way to work out hard because, you know, I enjoyed working out, really. And that's one of the things I wanted to do, though, if there's, if there's disabled rowing in the Paralympics, then it seemed viable that I'd be able to row. So there you go.

A (38:00)

At a minimum, you knew you could row.

C (38:01)

Yeah.

A (38:01)

You probably weren't thinking immediately about actually going to the Paralympic Games or you just Rob Jones.

C (38:07)

It was in the back of my mind. I checked the timeline. I was like, 2010, 2012. But then I kind of. It's kind of one of those things where I thought about it. You go, oh, that'd be cool, you know, if I could do that. But then obviously, what's. Where's the pathway? I have no idea. But I mean, yeah, two weeks later, I was good. I remember I was Googling, can you learn to row in Washington, D.C. with that? With that? You know, maybe. I don't know.

A (38:34)

Yeah.

C (38:35)

But, yeah, I don't think I was taking it too seriously at that point because I had no idea what that pathway even looked like. But it was one of those things where the idea, you know, clicks and it gets in there.

A (38:48)

Fast forward a little bit. You got a couple guys named Brett. Brett and Chad and they're called. They're peer visitors. And one of them asked, how you doing? Brett asked, getting serious. I shrugged. I can't complain much, I guess. Still going in for surgeon sees surgeries every other day, which aren't too bad. Besides not being able to eat or drink anything. I'm not really in any pain with the Dilaudid, at least when I'm just laying here getting more mobile every day. In fact, I was able to transfer out, into and out of my wheelchair for the first time today. Kind of talk about that with them. How about mentally? How are you doing there? Chad asked. I'm not too bad. I mean, I'm not feeling the most optimistic I've ever felt, but I certainly don't feel depressed or discouraged or anything. I don't know what's going to happen. I just don't know what's going to happen. It feels like I've lost my purpose in life. When I joined the Marine Corps, I always had a way to exemplify courage and brotherhood and selflessness, which is what I was seeking. But now I just don't know. I have a feeling I'm going to be a burden to people now, I said. It's frustrating to be so helpless. I have all these tubes sticking out of me, so I can't go anywhere without somebody pushing my IV pole. And the wheelchair is going to limit me so much moving forward. Like I won't be able to use stairs and my parents will have to build ramps for me when I visit. I just hate having to be looked after. Do you guys still have wheelchairs? I haven't used my chair in months. And there's a guy named Dan at the. How do you say M A T C? Is that what you say?

C (40:12)

Matt C is always there at the.

A (40:13)

Mat C. There's a guy named Dan at MATC who's a double above the knee like you, who threw his chair at a dumpster. Everybody's different, though, so can't tell you it'll happen for you. But that's one of the main goals at matcy, getting everybody walking everywhere they go, making people independent. Chad said. And that Dan that you're talking about is Dan Canossen. He was on episode 333. And you talk a little bit more about Dan here. As I look to my right, this is fast forward. This is at the matz. As I look to my right, I saw a double above the knee, amputee wearing two articulating robot legs on the opposite side of the room drop his backpack filled to the brim next to a mat table. He picked up two big dumbbells from a rack a few feet away and lifted them over his head several times before putting them down. I watched him intently as he did multiple sets with the dumbbells and then continued with crunches on the mat table. Hi, Robbie, I heard from my left. I turned my head and saw a thin blonde woman with a bubbly expression on her face approaching me from around the track. She took Dad's hand. Hi. What's her name? Attain.

C (41:17)

Etain. Yeah, Etain.

A (41:19)

I pointed to the amputee I've been watching. Who's that over there? Etain looked. Oh, that's Dan. He's sort of our star pupil around here. He's a Navy seal. He's doing everything that I want to be able to do. He's working out like a normal person. I don't even see as a caretaker with him. He's totally independent. No offense. I smirked at dad. Well, if you work hard enough, you have a chance to be like that, too. That's what we want. So there you go. Dan is a stud. And he set an example for you right out of the gate. Yeah, that had to be, like, so reassuring, seeing a guy that was just doing so much in the exact same situation that you were currently in.

C (41:58)

Yeah, I mean, it's such a great psychological thing to have to be able to see another person that essentially is a lot like you, that is doing something that you want to be able to do because it just opens up. If nobody's ever done it before, then you don't even know if it's possible humanly. But if you literally see somebody doing it right over there, you can think to yourself, why not me too?

A (42:20)

And how far ahead was he of you?

C (42:23)

I think about a year. So about a year, I think. And yeah, he had the bionic knees when I didn't have any legs yet. But yeah, I mean, I remember I saw him, he did all that stuff, and I went, okay, it's possible. Let's just get to work. All I got to do is just do the steps that he already did. He already cleared the pathway for me. And then I did that same thing when I learned how to ride a bicycle. I had a guy that I looked up to all sorts of stuff. I mean, even the month of marathons, which we'll get to later, you know, I had a. I had something like that, too. And everything That I did. There was probably somebody that I could at least say they did something similar to what I want to do. Yeah, Enough. Close enough that it gave me. It just opened the possibility to me.

A (43:09)

Yeah. It's pretty. Pretty amazing. Dan's such a stud. And. And it's also interesting. Jason Gardner, who's been on the podcast a bunch, who's worked, works with us at Echelon Front. You know, he was. That happened to Dan on a turnover op.

C (43:21)

Yeah.

A (43:22)

When. When Jason was like, the senior enlisted guy out there. So it's kind of. It's just crazy to hear. Like, I remember when that happened to Dan because I was talking to Jason and they're task unit commander, and, you know, he was telling me, like, hey, like, this guy's really messed up. And I was like, is he going to live? And they're like, yeah, he's stable. And I was like, all good then.

C (43:41)

Yeah.

A (43:41)

Like, I was just happy he was going to be alive.

C (43:43)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's done great for himself, too.

A (43:45)

Oh, yeah, Stud. You. You start getting your. I'm fast forwarding a bunch here, but you start getting the prosthetics and stuff like this, and there's a whole process, and it's freaking cool to read about just the details of what you have to figure out and what you have to make happen. But going back to the book here, you're so much weaker now. Your body is so fragile. And I'll tell you what else. Look around. Look at all the people here. All them are going to see you fall. They're all going to look at you. They're all going to know that you failed. You'll look so stupid, and you'll roll out of here the most embarrassed you've ever felt. Oh, and don't forget the shame. Your dad is here, too. He'll be disappointed. So will your mom when she hears. And the rest of your family and your brother Marines. I wheeled my chair up to the bars and set the brakes and took a deep breath. You may be right, or maybe you aren't. The only way to find out is to put these legs on and take a step. So you capture this. One of the coolest things about this book is you captured a lot of this internal dialogue. Negative internal. And of course, you have your internal dialogue going back at it, which is the positive most of the time, shutting it out. Like, how much of this. When you're. When you're in the moment, what is it? What does it feel like to have that internal dialogue in the moment?

C (45:04)

Yeah, I mean, it took me a while to figure. Figure that out because this book didn't really have any antagonist. I didn't. There was nobody that ever got in my way or tried to get in my way in a big way. And so it took me a while. And what I realized over time was that what the. The antagonist is inside my mind. And basically I saw what. That's how I came up with this. This, you know, inner terrorist character. Is that really what the terrorists wanted in the end? What Taliban wanted and Al Qaeda wanted? They wanted America's spirit to be crushed. That's what they want, ultimately. And the way that they would do that with me was like, hurt me so that my spirit gets crushed so that my parents. Spirits get crushed. And that weakens our resolve as a country. And then. So if I wanted to continue to do my part, I needed to fight against that. And the, The. So the internal, the internal terrorist is a manifestation of that, that goal. That's what I figured was the, the antagonist. But to your question, it's not like I actually had that conversation with myself. You know, a lot of the conversations I'm having with the inner terrorist are just. I'm putting into dialogue what I was, you know, the feeling of the situation. And those are all the feelings that I was feeling. I don't want to fall down. If I fall down, I'm going to be embarrassed. These are all the people I'm going to be embarrassed in front of. And these are all the reasons why I should not get up and try and walk again, even though I really, really, really want to be able to. Those are all the things that I was afraid were going to happen.

A (46:36)

And you start with the little shorties, right?

C (46:38)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, a prosthetic socket attached to a prosthetic foot. I was like 4 foot 2, very short. And so even if you do fall, you know, you're. You could probably just reach out and catch yourself with your hand. But it was just the embarrassment. Yeah, because the. And the funny thing was that whenever somebody fell in the clinic, it always made a bunch of noise. And then. And everybody in the clinic would go. And, you know, everything would just go silent. It's like somebody dropping their tray in the lunchroom. You know, everybody would go silent, look at you. And then after five seconds, they would just go back to what they were doing. And I noticed that one time when I fell or when somebody else fell, everybody looked at them. He started getting back up, and then everybody just went back to what they're doing. I went, oh, nobody cares because everybody falls.

A (47:25)

Isn't it weird how people. We always think everyone's looking at us and like, you know, everyone notices the thing or the freaking zit on your forehead or whatever, you know, when you're a teenager. Like, no one knows that. No one cares.

C (47:39)

Yeah. You know, and even if they do notice it, they look at it for five seconds and then they. They're back to their world.

A (47:45)

I guess there's. It's kind of egotistical, right, to think that everyone can see what I'm doing. Everyone's looking at me, right? No one's looking at you.

C (47:52)

Yeah.

A (47:52)

No one really cares.

C (47:53)

I mean, yeah, it's true that everybody can look at you. It's. The egotistical thing is thinking that they actually give a crap about what you're doing and that. I mean, I guess. And the ego is part of. I don't know if the inter. Terrorist is purely ego. It's definitely a big part in there. I don't know if he's purely ego, but yeah, I mean, that's what. That's what was being exemplified there is that the only thing that would have been damaged in me falling down in the parallel bars would have been my ego, and I amplified it more than it really even would have been because literally nobody cared.

A (48:25)

In fact, they're impressed that you're up there trying.

C (48:27)

Yeah, yeah, but that's. I mean, that's a really good point. If you're in the. If you're in the. We had this thing called the solo step. It was a harness. There was a track that went around the entire clinic, and in the ceiling, there was a track with a harness. And that's what you would. You would usually put that on when you're trying to do really tough stuff. So let's. Let's say I'm learning how to ride a bike in the clinic. I'd be in the. I was in the harness. And yeah, a couple times I fell off and was really loud and my leg fell off and all sorts of stuff happened. But. And if I was. If I listen to that, oh, my gosh, everybody cares. Everybody's gonna think I'm stupid. But really what they were thinking was, dang, that guy's riding a bike as a double above knee amputee. And yeah, so that's probably what they were really thinking. But, yeah, if you do fall, it means you're. You're putting out. That's what it really means.

A (49:18)

Fast forward a little bit. Brett Smiley. Am I saying his name right?

C (49:22)

Yeah.

A (49:22)

Brett Smiley. This is a. This is a note, a message. Brett Smiley. Hey. Hey, homie. I'm on a short rest and recuperation at Inkerman. We all miss you and are thinking about you. You better be at the 37 Ball in November. It's in Vegas, baby. Rob Jones to Brett Smiley. Hope you're killing many Taliban. Love you guys. I'll try to be at the ball, but no guarantees. I'm not sure I'll be able to walk well enough yet or have the stamina. Fast forward a little bit. You go to your physical therapist and you're like, I'm gonna start coming earlier to show. I'm gonna start showing up earlier, and I'm gonna start staying later. So you just like, I'm gonna freaking work. I'm gonna get this done. And eventually. Brett Smiley to Rob Jones. Eventually, you decide you're going. Yeah, like, you're going.

C (50:12)

I pretty much decided.

A (50:13)

You work your ass off to freaking get ready. Fast forward a little bit. Brett Smiley, Rob Jones. Are you in Vegas yet, man? We're hammered and want to use you to talk to honeys. Which I thought that's. That seems very fitting. That's what your Marines, they're gonna make use of the situation, right?

C (50:33)

That's something that I can't offer to them. Any single Marines. I could be walking them and I can say, they want to talk to a lady. I can fall down next to her and they can come over and like, oh, my gosh, let me help you up.

A (50:47)

Freaking classic. So you. You make it there. You. You go to the ball. It's. It's pretty awesome. And again, getting the emotions, capturing the emotions. The book. You do a great job of what that's like.

C (51:02)

Yeah, I'm like a really good writer.

A (51:04)

Yeah, you know, very, very outstanding. You're as good at writing as you are at finding IDs. Actually, you're much better. You're much better writer than you are finding IDs. Fast forward. After the ball ceremony, dad and I walked around the room, visiting with all the Marines from Kilo Company as we enjoyed beer and reminisced. By 11pm when the ballroom shut down, we had drunk our fair share of booze and revis just about every day of our deployment to Afghanistan. You ready to light this town on fire, brother? Smiley said as we all made our way out of the ballroom. I'm going to call it a night, man. I said back as I sat down in my wheelchair. No way. You have to come out. Ebers. Ebers or Ebers.

C (51:43)

Ebers.

A (51:43)

Ebers cut in. Yeah, the night's not over, Smiley added. I'm beat guys. My leg legs are killing me. I'm not quite as strong. I'm not quite strong enough yet to be able to party all night. I hate to disappoint you. No, it's okay brother. We'll walk you back. Ebers said as he, Smiley and two other Marines joined me and my dad in the elevator. We made our way back to the Flamingo and back to our room. I took off my dress blues, followed by my legs. I remember that, Ebers said pointing to the inside of my right thigh where I was missing most of the muscle. I'll never forget it. You were there? I asked. Yeah, I was there. I saw you get launched eight feet in the air, Ebers replied. I'm sorry you had to see that brother, but I'm good now. I know brother, I love you, he said leaning down to give me my hundredth hug of the night. Love you guys, I said as we all hugged goodbye. We'll see you soon brother, Smiley said as they walked out the door. When the door closed, I laid back in my bed drenched in sweat. My legs were almost entirely red and swollen. I laid back staring at the ceiling, feeling the heat dissipate from my body. That was fun. Dad said to my left. Yeah, I agreed. It was good to see everybody. It was good to meet the guys you deployed with, dad replied. Thanks again for coming. The next day we flew back to Baltimore and returned to our room at the Malone house. Two weeks later I repeated the same night in Roanoke. Roanoke with the marines of Bravo Company 4th Combat Engineer Battalion at their ball. By December I was self reliant enough that my dad moved back home. I was spending more than three hours in the clinic and I was as tall in my shorties as Zachary dared to make me. So I thought that was a really important, you know, and I, I didn't go through the whole process here but the fact that your dad was able to because you know, and again you, you talk about a lot about what your dad did and took care of you and helped you through stuff but eventually you get to this point where your dad could move back home. Yeah, big milestone.

C (53:33)

Major shout out to my dad, he just retired maybe. Or that like the, that week that I was wounded he had just retired from work and then I get wounded and then yeah, they tell me I need to have a non medical caretaker and I just went dad, you have to live with me now.

A (53:48)

Sure.

C (53:49)

And he lived with me and, you know, it's a standard two queen hotel room for, you know, three, four months.

A (53:57)

Damn.

C (53:58)

Until finally I said, I think I'm. I think I'm good. And then. Yeah, I mean, just the ball. Part of the reason I wanted to do that was because the last time those guys saw me was I was in Afghanistan. You know, both my legs have been blown off. So I knew that it would be. Part of the reason was I knew it would be cathartic for them. And I could tell that it was because they, you know, it signaled to them they didn't have to worry about me anymore. And that's also one of, Part of, One of the reasons why I bounced back so quickly too, I think, is that I knew intrinsically that they were, they were worried, you know, after they saw me go away in the helicopter. And the only thing that I could really do to help them was to just be okay, because any time that they spent worrying about me, they were spending less time about staying alive over there. And so I needed to do my part and just be okay and then also show them that I was, I was fine. And. Yeah, and I, you know, I think I accomplished that for the most part.

A (54:57)

Oh yeah. How, how long had you been in Afghanistan before you got blowed up?

C (55:03)

Four months total. So we spent I think about two and a half, three months in Delaram, two weeks in Musa Kayla, and then probably two weeks in Sangin before, Before I was wounded. And they spent another, what, three and a half or two and a half months doing some pretty heavy fighting. A lot of firefights in Sangan after that. But yeah, that's kind of one of the bigger first milestones was when my dad moved out on the path. To me, the whole point of physical therapy is to regain strength, regain self reliance, and regain self confidence. And so that was, you know, one of those. One of those three things I was trying to do. I felt confident enough in myself that I could now live by myself.

A (55:46)

And where are you living at this point?

C (55:48)

This is just. They turned a hotel that was on Walter Reed, old Walter Reed, into. They just put all the amputees in there. So it's just a hotel called the Malone House, but that was just. So was outpatient housing, but it was just a hotel.

A (56:04)

And you're psychologically doing freaking outstanding at this point and you're in a house filled with amputees.

C (56:11)

Yeah.

A (56:12)

What, like, how do you interact with guys that are clearly on the other end of the spectrum that are having a really hard time with it?

C (56:17)

I don't remember running into that many people, to be perfectly honest with you. There was tons of amputees. I don't really. There was one guy that I remember everybody kind of knew that he was not doing well because he got really badly wounded. And I think his wife left him as a result of his injury, so he was not doing well. I think he maybe even tried to like roll himself down a flight of stairs or something like that. I never, I didn't really talk to that many people, to be honest with you. I was so focused on doing my physical therapy and just getting to work. I didn't make a whole lot of friends there. Most people that I talked to were other people that were like me that I was be trying to figure stuff out. Like talk to Dan. Talked to Todd Nicely, who's a quadruple amputee. Talked to this guy Aaron, who's a double above knee amputee. He was a couple weeks before me. He got wounded. So those are the kind of people that I would talk about, talk to. And all those people were very positive individuals. And the whole atmosphere of the Massey the physical therapy clinic was a very positive, let's figure this out, let's all move on type of atmosphere.

A (57:27)

Yeah, that's awesome. Fast forward a little bit. These bionic knees and this is what Dan had. What does the bionic knee do?

C (57:40)

So the one that we had in the clinic was called the sea leg and now it's called the genium. It basically what it is is a, a knee, a bionic knee, a prosthetic knee that has technology in it to try and recreate what a human knee would do to the best of our ability. So it has weight distribution sensors that, that tells, that can tell whether your weight is over your toe or whether the weight is over your heel. And then also gyroscopes to tell when you're on a slope and all this. So it has all these sensors in it that sense where it is in space takes all that data. And then it essentially tries to predict what you're doing. So if you're on your toe, then it knows you're probably trying to take a step. And when it does that, it releases this little silicone fluid piston in the back of it to allow the leg to swing freely because it assumes that you are putting the weight on your toe. And then when it releases, you're gonna swing your hip through, swing the leg through, and then land. And when you land, it lands on the heel. So then it senses that it's on the heel and it stiffens so that you can plant and then do the same thing on the other thing. So it's essentially, it has all this stuff in it based upon the data that's receiving from these sensors that predicts what you're doing sitting down, going down stairs, going up and down slopes can. And even the ones I have now, I can program modes into it too so that it's in. It stays in a certain state. So if I want to do push ups, I have a, I have a mode in here that I can put it into that just locks it out straight. So I can do push ups or you just stuff in the gym, that kind of thing. So that's what, that's why it's bionic.

A (59:18)

So it has, it has a charge. Like you have to charge.

C (59:21)

Yeah, so it's. Yeah, you have to charge the battery last, depending on usage, four or five days. Oh, and pretty good to go. It lasts a long time. But I have many, many times been in an airport where my leg runs out of batteries. And what it does is it just locks out straight. So I'll be like limping through the airport with one straight leg and one. So it's a.

A (59:44)

So when we were coming here, you were walking up the stairs in front of me?

C (59:47)

Yeah, yeah.

A (59:48)

What, what. It seemed like they went into a mode where they locked out. Is that accurate or is it just the way.

C (59:53)

Yeah, well, so going upstairs, it has a stair mode as a stair climbing mode. I didn't use it because I would have kicked you. But what you do is you basically, as if you're trying to scuff mud off the bottom of your shoe, you scuff it and then you bring it or you bring your leg around and it, if you do that motion with the leg, it then stiffens in a bent position so that you can plant your leg and then propel yourself up the stairs. And I did that for the, when I did the one World Trade center tower climb, I learned that. So I did it, you know, 2200 times. But yeah, it has a, it has a stair climbing mode in it. And what I did with you just now was I just. That's how I go up most stairs. I just swing my leg around and go straight. But yeah, you're right. When I planted my leg, it stiffened because it knew I was probably trying to, you know, do. Do some sort of walking motion. Yeah, it's pretty. It's extremely intelligent.

A (60:51)

And is it something that, like, what's the training like for that? Do they Just put you on the tall legs. Do these come in a shorter mode? In the beginning, are you straight into them?

C (61:01)

The bionic knees are this. They're. Yeah, they're the same. They don't make different length ones. But that's why you start in shorties in the clinic because you learn the balance, you learn the motion. And then that's why also you get, you know, you get a little bit taller. Get a little bit taller because your center of gravity is raising up until eventually, you know, they, they have you at a certain height and they say, all right, now we're going to graduate you to the, the, the C leg or the X3 or whatever it was. And then, yeah, after that, it's just, you got to figure it out as.

A (61:35)

You'Re learning to walk, you know, you get into this same thing, like everybody's gonna fall and your, your pts, like every, every falls in here, right, Dan? And great quote from Dan Canosson. Yeah, the way I figure it, figure it. If you don't fall sometimes you're really not pushing yourself. He replied through heavy breathing while he lifted the dumbbells overhead. That's just Dan just freaking going hard straight truth.

C (62:02)

It's such a great person to have as a role model.

A (62:04)

Yeah. Then you end up falling anyways, of course.

C (62:08)

Yeah.

A (62:09)

And you get everybody. Hairline fracture and six weeks in a cast. And that's a little bit of a setback.

C (62:15)

Yeah. But not too bad. Ultimately it pushed me forward because it forced me to drop my other cane. I was still relying on a cane at that point. And as I detail in the book, I was now forced with the. I either go back to the wheelchair, which I did not want to do, or I just figure out how to walk without a cane. And I chose to figure out how to walk without a cane.

A (62:38)

There's a bit of writing in here and I just wrote in big letters above it, montage. Because when they make this into a movie like this is such a good montage scene. Over the course of the next six weeks, Attain and Adele assigned me the same drills as I had done before. I broke my wrist. I returned to the trampoline. I walked along the track with one leg landing on a two inch thick line of foam lying on the floor. Adele took me for walks on uneven grassy areas around the clinic that had dips to either side, soft ground, holes and slopes. I carried 3 foot long, 2 foot wide cylindrical pads that weighed 15 pound over my shoulder while I did laps around the clinic. The only thing that changed was that in the first two weeks, I spent more time dangling from the solo step and driving my knee into the floor than I had in the previous two months. Every time I fell, the same loud noise clanked throughout the clinic, and for a brief moment, all eyes were on my embarrassment before returning to normal. Over time, however, the falls became less frequent, and I performed more and more of my drills outside the safety net of the harness. I even began to lift my cane up while I walked from time to time. On a warm spring day in mid April, I confidently walked at full speed into the mat C. My left arm, noticeably smaller than my right, was no longer encased within a cast. The hair was matted down, and the skin was a pale color associated with the lack of sun exposure. Neither of my hands held the cane. And look at you now. No canes and walking everywhere you go, less than a year after you got here. That's so impressive, Robbie. Not that many people achieve that. So there you go. That's like montage freaking central. Echo's getting ideas over here.

C (64:13)

Then we can get Chris Pratt to play me in the movie.

A (64:16)

Yeah, yeah.

C (64:17)

He might not be good looking enough.

A (64:18)

That's true. That's a good point. Yeah. We might need to get someone a little bit more suited for. For your looks. Yeah. So that's what it is, man. It's just freaking daily grind. Getting after it, pushing yourself every day, making things. Things happen.

C (64:36)

Yeah. I mean, literally, when I first started the. I think I remember the first time I put my legs on, I pretty much just stood for 20 seconds. I sat back down, and that was it for the day. I was out. I was done. And then the next day, I came in, I went, all right, 30 seconds today. And that's it. It's just a tiny bit more. Just a Barely anymore. But as long as it's a little bit more, then that's progress for the day. And you just can keep doing that enough. And eventually you go from, you know, no prosthetic legs at all to bionic knees, no canes. That's the goal that you're trying.

A (65:13)

Yeah. I mean, it could be. If you were. When I watch you walk, like, if you didn't know that you didn't have legs or that you were on prosthetics, it would be. You probably could tell if you're looking for it, but a lot of times, like, you look pretty. Pretty normal.

C (65:27)

Yeah. I mean, pretty. Yeah. If I was walking in front of a brick wall that blocked my lower half or something, somebody would probably be able to look at me and go, like, I just walks a little bit weird. But they wouldn't be able to say, you know, why? Yeah, I kind of walk like this a little bit because I swing my body. They probably just think I have air last.

A (65:43)

Yeah, you're just a tough guy.

C (65:46)

Fake tough guy. I've even had that before. Where I remember I was running the Charlottesville half marathon in the announcer. You know how they announce people as they cross the finish line sometimes? I remember I was running in and I, you know, I run look kind of weird when I run. And I remember the guy, the guy that was announcing he couldn't see that I had. He went, oh, he's doing a little jig as he crosses the finish line. And then I cross. And then he finally saw me, he went, oh, it's amazing.

A (66:16)

It's an amazing jig. Oh, amazing. This is a good attitude. Chapter six is called if there's no Way, Make One. And this is where you get into. Are those cycling legs I've heard about. I pointed at Dan, who was in the middle of a steady pace on the station, one of the stationary cycles, wearing strange legs that I'd never seen before. Yeah. He pedaled through the heavy and fast breathing, not losing focus on his exercise. I watched him for several more seconds, mesmerized how closely the motion of his prosthesis mimicked normal legs. Can you ride a regular bicycle with those things off the stationary, I mean. Dan's head turned toward me, but his pace didn't slow. No, we haven't figured that out yet. He turned his head back forward. Dang. I was hoping you tell me how you did it. I continued watching. Sorry, I'm not going to be much help on this one. He kicked into a sprint, signaling the end of the conversation. He's just freaking hardcore. These are things called barlet tendons, Bartlet Bartlett tendons. And this is what. It's like a certain kind of prosthetic that has like a fake tendon in it or something. What is it?

C (67:23)

Yeah, it's a knee that was designed by a single above knee amputee that was a downhill mountain bike racer for cycling. And the way that he. It's kind of hard to describe, but it's, it's. You can see my knee. It's a picture of the knee that I'm wearing right now, but it's got two.

A (67:44)

Which looks like a. What's Elon Musk's freaking thing called? The.

C (67:49)

Oh, the robot.

A (67:50)

The robot thing. Optimist.

C (67:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It looks like they're looks like pretty.

A (67:55)

Much looks like an optimist name.

C (67:57)

So yeah, it looks like that. But then on the outside has essentially two maybe something that looks kind of like a gear sort of but without the cogs on it. That kind of shape just circ, you know, circles. And then connected to the socket is a probably inch circumference black piece of rubber, circular piece of rubber. And it hooks into this little notch that they put in your socket, goes over that circular thing on the outside of the knee and then back around to the back of the ankle and hooks in there. So basically what happens when the knee bends, that thing stretches and wants to straighten. So it bends as it comes up the back and then once you get over the top, it wants to extend. So it kind of helps you push down.

A (68:45)

Check. So that's good. So you got some cycling going on. Fast forward a little bit. On a Wednesday in early June, I don my running legs and begin walking out of the clinic. How's the running been feeling? Are you sticking with our dealer going easy? Attain asked as I passed the main desk. I'm trying. I stopped leaning on the desk. But it's hard. I know you're motivated. I know you're more motivated than anyone I've ever worked with. Well, it's more than that. Now that Dan is gone, I feel I have a responsibility to push myself as hard as I can and learned anything that I can in order to be for the new amputees in the clinic what Dan was for me. I need to show them what's possible. I have to set a new standard before I leave the mat c better than how I found it. Just don't hurt yourself in the process. Etain advised. I don't know. I shrugged. It might be worth the injury risk for today though. I'm only good into short run because I'm leaving early. I'm going over to Anacostia for my first rowing lesson. So you had that little thought in your head about rowing.

C (69:48)

Yeah. And finally I was in a position where I had the strength and now I could start thinking. I regained the strength. I was walking confident, self reliant. Now I could start thinking about what else can I do?

A (70:01)

What's the next level?

C (70:02)

Yeah.

A (70:02)

And pretty awesome that you saw Dan leave and you realized that you became that new example.

C (70:09)

Yeah, I mean I think what I realized in that moment was that I needed to lead. Which would be the great title of a book.

A (70:15)

Yeah, somebody should write that. Dave. I'll let Dave know. That's a good title for a book.

C (70:19)

But yeah, I mean, I saw that. What? Yeah, I recognize in that moment that that's what Dan was for me. He was a role model for me. And now that he was gone, I had a responsibility to. Yeah. Be that for somebody else, for all. Because I remember I came in one time and there's a bunch of new amputees looking at me and they had the same look in their eyes that I had when I saw Dan the first time. And I recognized that. And so I went, I gotta. I gotta push myself.

A (70:45)

Gotta make this happen.

C (70:46)

Yeah.

A (70:48)

Your first rowing experience. Fast forward a little bit. Okay, good. Patrick locked the other ore into the dock weight side wing of the boat. Last thing you need to put is put on a life vest. He tossed me a yellow reflective vest. What's this dorky thing? This guy not knowing a marine. You don't need this stupid bright vest. Tell them you're not wearing it. The terrorist shouted. I thought I wouldn't flip. I examined it. Patrick shrugged. I mean, it does happen sometimes. I stared down at that life vest. You're going to look like such an idiot wearing the stupid vest, flailing around out here. I'd be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if you're the first person to ever flip over one of these things. You don't need this. Or rowing. Get out of the boat. The terrorist orders. Ordered. I've come this far. I turned the vest around. It had white reflective stripes on the back. Besides, I've already learned that looking stupid is just part of learning. As Mark Twight says, if you're good at what you do, nobody cares what you look like. But you aren't good. Well, eventually I will be if I'm not deterred by how I look then. And then all this looking stupid stuff won't matter. Especially if I go to the Paralympics. So now you're already first day in the boat, you're thinking Paralympics, dude. You read about rowing and you, you thought about the Paralympics and fast forward a little bit. In order to compete in the Paralympics, you needed a partner. Now is that because is there solo sculling or not?

C (72:09)

Not in the Paralympics.

A (72:11)

Okay, so you definitely needed to have a partner.

C (72:12)

The only category I compete in was what's called the Mixed trunk and Arms Mixed double skull. So double skull is two oars each and then mix means man and woman.

A (72:24)

Okay. How come they don't have man, man and woman? Woman?

C (72:29)

I don't know. I mean, they only had. At that point they only had three boat categories. That or Four boat categories in the Paralympics now they have more. It was, you know, single arms, only male, single arms, only female. They had the double, which was trunk and arms, but it was mixed. And then the four, which is what my wife Pam competed in, was two women, two men.

A (72:53)

Got it.

C (72:54)

So I get, I think it's just a way to be inclusive.

A (72:58)

Right.

C (72:58)

As many people, as many people as you can, I think makes sense. But also make it competitive.

A (73:03)

You end up with a woman named Oksana Masters and she. You guys kind of connect and that seems like you guys hit it off pretty good.

C (73:13)

Yeah, I mean, from the very start, we're both double above knee amputees. And from. Yeah, from immediately. I mean, I met her and then we went and rode and our two coaches liked what they saw. And so what. And what they were looking for was, do we kind of match? Do our rowing styles match up? Do we, can we, can we row together smoothly?

A (73:34)

And she was very experienced. You talk about a bunch of this stuff in the book, but she was experienced and you were like, not.

C (73:42)

I was just getting started and she probably saw me row and went, oh my God, I have to do this. But you know, I'm a fast learner. But we, and we matched up really well. And I mean a little bit about her. She's gone on, she's done incredible for herself. She's probably won. She's been in every Paralympics summer and winter since 2012 and she's probably won.

A (74:05)

Like what's the 20 metals that she does?

C (74:07)

She's biathlon, which is what Dan did. She did biathlon, cross country skiing. But she's won, I don't know, 20 medals at this point. Yeah, she's, she's awesome.

A (74:18)

So you got all that going on. Meanwhile, fast forward a little bit. I got my medical board results. I said to attain as she performed my end of session stretches on a Monday in mid October. What'd they say? She pressed down on my left stump, which was hanging over the edge of the table, unfit for duty. Unfit. That seems so harsh. I suppose the military isn't known for coddling, but it's not as bad as it seems. They're just saying that in their opinion, I wouldn't be able to run around Afghanistan and fight the Taliban effectively. I can't say I disagree. Really. I don't know. I think you could attain said. I chuckled. You'd never say any different. But the truth is I'm good in normal circumstances where I have time to prepare and get my legs on, etc. But war is different. War is a different world entirely. There's no time to prepare and people's lives would depend on me. So I'm under no illusion. I knew this would be their decision. They won't let you stay in if you want. No. They offer everyone the opportunity to retrain in a different job that wouldn't involve combat. So hypothetically, I could stay. But you don't want to do that. Not really. Yeah. You have that opportunity. The Marine Corps say, hey, we can make you logistics person or something like that. And you didn't want to do that.

C (75:34)

No, I wanted to fight. If I was going to be in the Marine Corps, I was there to fight. I wasn't there to do anything else. So I figured time for me to go ahead and, and, yeah, move forward. And it's. It was interesting because when I first got to the clinic, I kind of just assumed that I was going to get bionic knees and I was just going to be able to do it. I. I wanted to, I wanted to deploy again. I was like, I'm going to get my bionic knees, I'm going to deploy again. But that was kind of based upon a very ignorant view or knowledge about what the realities are. And the more experience I got, yes, I could do a lot. I can and do do a lot of things. But, yeah, there is a reality that you have to accept that even though I can do a lot of stuff, I am limited in certain ways on certain terrains that would make me a. A liability.

A (76:27)

Yeah. And it seems like reading this, you understood it like this.

C (76:31)

Yeah.

A (76:32)

The situation.

C (76:32)

Yeah. And this is how it is.

A (76:34)

Not Going crazy. Just. That's what's happening. Meanwhile, got your bike. You're still. You're just getting after it. You got your bike. I sat down. I sat back down as I felt my bike becoming unsteady once again and pressed down with my right leg. The left followed suit, coming up over the 12 o' clock position. And I pressed it down, completing a full pedal stroke around the same time that I reached the other curve in the track. I'm clipped in. It worked. I passed by, beginning my second loop. Awesome. I did it. We celebrated. We. We completed a celebratory high five. You did it. Hell, yes. I continued. I can't believe this actually worked. Nice job, man. And again, I'm skipping a bunch of stuff where you guys figured out how to do this, this, and it's trial and error and it's like overcoming challenges. It's freaking epic. Nice job. Never would have done it without you and Ray. It's an honor. You should totally ride your bike across country. One step at a time, Zach. I laughed. I'm lucky to ride 3,000ft, let alone 3,000 miles. Right. Want to go again? Definitely. I swung my leg back around, and I kind of burned through that. You should ride your bike across country, which he's kind of throwing out there, but I guess that landed in your mind.

C (77:44)

Starting to see a pattern developing.

A (77:46)

Yeah, dude, I gotta watch out what I say in front of you.

C (77:49)

You should go to space.

A (77:50)

Freaking plant some seeds in your head. You might get knocked at Mars.

C (77:53)

It's Elon.

A (77:55)

I'll talk to Elon about it. Meanwhile, so you got the biking thing going on. Meanwhile, you got Marine Corps 10K. And when you go to run the Marine Corps 10K and you finish that thing, you also see that they're giving out, you know, medals for the Marine Corps 10k, but also medals for the Marine Corps Marathon.

C (78:12)

Yeah, I mean, I remember when they asked me if I want to do the race. They said, do you want to do the marathon or do you want to do the 10k? And I backed down from the marathon. Marathon. There's no way. So I just did the 10K. And then I saw all the people getting the marathon medals, and I went, damn it. I don't know. Realistically speaking, I probably was not ready for a marathon at that point. Yeah, maybe, but probably not.

A (78:41)

And by the way, you're still trying for the Paralympics now. There's like. Like a rivalry between your boat and Tony and Jackie, right?

C (78:52)

Yeah, they were. They were the other boat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Oksana had history with. With the lady in the other boat. She beat her in the previous year and maybe and said something really nasty to her like, they beat her and they went, I thought you were supposed to be good or something.

A (79:07)

Dang.

C (79:07)

That. There's a bit of. There's a little bit of a grudge. A little bit of a grudge match.

A (79:12)

So we have a little text activity happening here. Rob to Oksana. Do you think you. We can beat Tony and Jackie? Ok, so I'm going to Rob. We almost did. So, yes, I think we can. Rob to Oksana. You want to go to the Paralympics? I waited with my heart in my throat and all my future plans hinging on one text message. Oaks on the Rob. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Do you. I typed my response with shaking thumbs. Let's do it, partner. You're on, partner.

C (79:40)

Did we just become best friends? But yeah, that was A moment. I mean, I had to decide what I wanted to do next. I was retiring at that point.

A (79:48)

Oh, because now you're retiring from the Marine Corps?

C (79:50)

Yeah. I had to figure out what I was gonna do before I left.

A (79:55)

You. So now you guys start putting together a plan based on last year's results to win trials and become Team USA, we need to be doing a thousand meters in 4 minutes, 4 minutes and 10 seconds. That's what you guys set as a goal that you guys need to be able to achieve. And what were you at? You know, what you were at when you started?

C (80:12)

When we started, probably like 4:34, 20 something. Yeah, it was. We had to go a long way. And 410 is just to qualify in order to do well at all in the Paralympics. You're looking at, you know, four minutes right around four minutes. So. But that was just the 4:10 was, you know, just to get to the, to the dance.

A (80:34)

Fast forward a little bit. I have nothing against either Jackie or Oz on a personal level. In fact, from what I can tell, they're nice people and. But I want to crush their souls. This is you guys rowing. And then she says, and I want to drink their tears. So you guys are, you know, nice people, but definitely there's some competitive juices that are flowing. Then we get in this section. This is pretty cool. There's a guy named Brad Lewis who is a gold medal rower and he, he qualified his first, first Olympics in 1980, but in 1980, the US boycotted the Olympics, so he didn't get to compete. Yeah, he can be. Did compete in 1984. He won double gold and he wrote a bunch of books about rowing. And you had read those books and, and he has his email in his books.

C (81:20)

Yeah.

A (81:21)

And you're like, cool. And so you send him an email. From Rob Jones to Brad Lewis, subject. Thanks for writing, Mr. Lewis. My name is Rob Jones Jones. I am a trunk and arms adaptive rower. I roll a mixed double skull with my partner Oksana. We recently qualified for the Paralympics at a qualification regatta in Serbia. I want to take the time to send you an email saying that what I read in the three books, Olympian Wanted, Rowing Coach and Lido for Time, were a big factor in this accomplishment. I read them all twice and my partner, once I felt an extra connection to the book because I feel as though our story now closely mirrors your own. We are a double skull. We're the crew going up against the national team. Coached boat and won at trials and subsequently won a spot in the Paralympics this year. On top of that, since I'm a retired Marine, we have the same haircut as well, although I prefer to go with a full beard as opposed to the goatee. We used a lot of your workouts in our training, so thank you for writing a book that shows what it means to have true dedication. Regards, Rob Jones. What's the book Lido for Time about? What's Lido? Is that a river or something?

C (82:27)

Lido. It's in Newport Beach. So that's where he trained. Newport beach for the. For the Olympics. And Lido for Time is. That's a workout that he would do. How long would it take him to row around Lido Island?

A (82:38)

Got it.

C (82:38)

And he would always try and beat his time. And in his book, Olympian, the reason I'd made the Marine haircut, he said he. He said going to the Olympics, he had long hair. And then going into the Olympics, he wanted to intimidate his component, his opponents. So he picked the ugliest haircut he could think of, which was the Marie. He got a goatee check. Right on.

A (83:05)

Now, at a certain point, you're like, you are still training, and you feel like you guys, you have an opportunity for a new coach or you need a new coach.

C (83:16)

Yeah. Well, Brad was the new coach. So we started in Orlando, and this guy Justin and Katie, they coached us at first, but just along the way, they coached us until we qualified for the Paralympics. But over the course of that time, Oksana and Justin just stopped getting along with each other. And we kind of recognized that. It just didn't. I don't know, it just didn't seem like a very good setup anymore. And so we.

A (83:43)

Chemistry wasn't there.

C (83:44)

Yeah, the chemistry was they were just starting to, I don't know, dislike each other.

A (83:49)

And so you reach out to Brad Lewis, who's again, like, freaking Olympic gold medalist. Like, hey, if you're not busy, we could kind of use a new coach. And sure enough, emails you back from Brad Lewis to Rob Jones. How about if I come out for two weeks, we can see how it goes. Decide from there if I'm adding to your speed. Brad, dude, you must have been like, what the hell? This is freaking awesome.

C (84:11)

I just say it was the same thing when the first time I came on the podcast, Pam tweeted you. I was like, tweet jocko and tell him he should have me on. And she did. And then next thing you know, I'm on the podcast. It's like, hey, yeah, but you come.

A (84:26)

On the podcast, we Sit down for a few hours. That's no big deal. But for, like, me to fly across country to spend, like, all. Invest all my time in coaching, that's a huge deal at this guy.

C (84:34)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't. I could barely believe that it actually happened because he was my, you know, he was my rowing hero. That's everything in that book. It was my bible. I read it, like, five, six times when I was training, and it was just. I want to. This is what I want to be like. I want to be. This is what it is looks like to devote yourself to one thing, one thing and one thing only, and forget about everything else.

A (84:56)

He was just pure obsession.

C (84:57)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I say just total dedication. I mean, he got. He. He. He quit. There's, like, a rowing camp, and he. The team USA Rowing camp. He quit that camp. But he realized he needed a boat to row in, so he just stole one of the boats and some oars, put it on his car and drove off.

A (85:19)

Sure.

C (85:19)

And then eventually he. He raced that same boat at the. At the trials and won. And they're like, all right, all's forgiven.

A (85:27)

Damn, dude.

C (85:28)

But, yeah, it's just so. Just complete dedication. So he was my, you know, my rowing hero at the time, and I just figured he just showed up. Why not ask him?

A (85:39)

Pretty cool. And he shows up. He's. He's got there. Or you. You. He wrote in his book the three keys, the three pillars. Openness, respect, and honesty. Underneath the pillars, he had written necessary for optimal performance. Coach. Rower. Rower. Rower. So openness, respect, and honesty. And so what did that mean to you? Like, we've got to obviously be open with each other. We got to treat each other with respect, and we got to be honest and tell what's happening.

C (86:09)

Yeah. I mean, those are the. Similar to the, you know, the pillars of a relationship, and you have to have a good relationship with. You have to be able to trust each other. And that's what. Honesty. That's how I interpreted that honestly. You have to be able to. I have to be able to trust that when I pull on the oars so hard that I feel like I'm gonna die and I'm gonna puke my guts up and die at the end of the race. I have to trust that oxonist doing the same thing. She has to feel the same way. Because if there's any doubt in my mind, then I'm not gonna. I'm gonna pull a little less hard, and we have to both be on this in the same Boat that we're gonna pull until we feel like we're gonna be dead and we're. Maybe we're even gonna die just a little bit. We had that on the backs of our shirts. I did. I don't know if I wrote that about that in the book. I mean, the name of our boat was Bad Company.

A (86:55)

No, you didn't write this.

C (86:56)

Oh, well, here's a little story then. Patrick, the coach that got us the boat, he wanted to. He got it. He got a brand new boat. He was going to let us row in it. And he said, how about we name it? You know, every boat has to have a name. He goes, how about we name it Mufasa? And I was like, I am not.

A (87:14)

Put this in there Now I'm recalling it.

C (87:16)

I don't remember. I'm not rowing in a boat called Mufasa. Okay, that's weird. And then. But Five Fifth and Death Punch had just released a cover of the song Bad Company. And so I heard that song, and I was like, the name of the boat is Bad Company. And then we were looking to make T shirts for going to trials, so we had Bad Company on the front, and I wanted to do a quote on the back. And I remember this quote from this marathon runner, Emil something. A check. Runner Emil something. Anyway, and he had a quote that said, before he started a marathon, he turned to all of his opponents and said, gentlemen, today we die a little. And I went, that's the. That's the mindset that I want to have going into every race. I'm gonna race so hard. I'm gonna put out so much that it takes some time off my life. I'm gonna die a little bit on the water. And so we put that quote on the back. I don't remember how I got in that story, but that's a. Oh, the. Yeah, so the. The three pillars.

A (88:14)

Oh, yeah, yeah, the three pillars. That's kind of where we picked up with this guy.

C (88:18)

And.

A (88:18)

And he shows up and he's a freaking legend of the sport. And here you are just having him be your coach.

C (88:23)

And people were. I remember him going to races with us, and people would be like, brad Lewis is your coach. Yeah, what's up? What a. What of it? They couldn't believe it. Dude.

A (88:33)

There was times, like, my kids would be competing in jiu jitsu, and, like, in their corner, when they're, like, 10 years old would be, like, Dean Lister and Jeff Glover. You'd be like, bro, that's just crazy. This is an awesome thing. This getting into a little of his attitude. Good morning. What a great day. Welcome back. He held three balls out to me. Can you juggle? Yeah, a little bit. I said, taking them and channeling my fourth grade self to toss them in the air. After 30 seconds of juggling, I tossed a ball too far to the left, ending my roll. You're much better than me. Brad picked up an errand. The errant ball. You should juggle whenever you're just sitting around. It's great for having fast hands. You want fast hands and clicks, you lose a grip on your OR handle. Okay, I'll get a step. Keep these. Brad handed me the ball. Never let yourself be caught with nothing to do. There's lots of waiting around and rowing. You can always work on something. Hell yeah. That's freaking legit.

C (89:25)

That's why he's a gold medalist.

A (89:27)

Yep.

C (89:27)

Because he never wasted time. He had all these little tricks and it's just about being good at, just good, good at your craft. Not just being able to row, but just knowing about your boat, being out on the water and being able to control your boat in, in a variety of different ways and just being really good at it. Just being able to control, have total control of everything that you do. It's not just about rowing. It's about being good at your craft. And he had all sorts of stuff like that.

A (89:54)

Yeah, it's freaking legit. More with Brad. Today I'm going to introduce you to the first F in my five Fs of success. First one is focus. He rolls through the focus activity, making sure that, you know, you got to stay focused. That's one. The next one is. And again you go into a lot of details in these things in the book. Number two is forget, forget your bad strokes and move on to the next stroke. Yeah. This is something that I guess at some point Tiger woods like mental coach came to the SEAL teams and, and was saying that one thing that Tiger does that is so important is when he's hitting a ball, he's not thinking about the last shot and he's not thinking about the next shot. He's just thinking about this shot.

C (90:44)

Yeah.

A (90:44)

And if you're. We do drills like shooting head plates where there's six head plates up and you got to shoot your pistol and knock down the head plates.

C (90:51)

Right.

A (90:52)

And if you miss one and you think about the fact that you missed one, you're going to miss all the rest of them and it's going to be a freaking. Might as well just quit.

C (91:00)

Yeah.

A (91:01)

But if you miss one and you just keep shooting. And then you go back and shoot it, or you can shoot it again. But if you think. If you start getting. Thinking about the fact that you just missed one, everything's going to fall apart. You just have to forget about the last one. So that's what this sounds like to me, because I guess you must take bad. You take bad strokes during rowing.

C (91:19)

I would say 95% of my strokes were bad in some way. If you're trying to go for the. I mean, a good stroke is the perfect stroke, basically. That's a good stroke. And so I would. Yeah, 90, 95% of my strokes had some sort of imperfection. Either the blade dug too deep or I pulled it out too early, I put it in too late, or I didn't put it in. In the right velocity with the right flick of the wrist. There's always something that I could take a look at it and be like, that's what I did wrong on that one. That's what I did wrong on that one. So it's, you know, it's. It's pursuing perfection as a goal with the recognition that you're. You might get there one every thousand strokes, but it's just about getting closer and closer and closer to that perfect stroke.

A (92:02)

How often do you just blow one.

C (92:04)

Like, we call that catching a crab. So where you put it in so bad that the water. The water moving by rips it out of your hand and it. And so the or goes that way past you and your ore handle goes this way and get stuck behind you. And people get ejected out of the boat sometimes, right? Yeah. I mean, it happens in the Olympics, and it changes. The boat will be in first place. Catch a crab and they're in last, and, you know, three seconds and then they're done. So that would be the worst. That was pretty rare that that kind of thing would happen. But obviously, the more tired you get, the worse your strokes are going to get. But, yeah, I mean, if you spend time thinking about how that last stroke was bad, or I'll think about the imperfections that last stroke and focusing on it, then you're not focusing on this one as much. So the key is to just learn the lesson from that last stroke, learn the lesson from what happened, and forget about it.

A (93:01)

Move on. The third F Brad started is fu. I am a winner. Oksana and I nodded with a look of confusion. Have you ever been told by something you can't. By someone, you can't do something? All the time, especially in Rowing, Oksana said with fervor. I nodded, remembering my battles with the terrorist. This F is for those people. You are the only one who knows what you're capable of. Anybody else, no matter how knowledgeable they are, only has secondhand information. They can't feel your desire or your drive. So the fu. That's number. That's the third F. What I like about that is, like, sometimes you got to channel some anger, you know, saying. I mean, you're talking about five finger death punch. Like, sometimes you got to channel some anger with people and with situations. Like, did you see the Last Dance with Michael Jordan?

C (93:55)

Yeah.

A (93:56)

Like, dude, he would just get. He took things personal, create things, problematic things with other people and just freaking go. Go crazy.

C (94:03)

Yeah.

A (94:03)

Get angry.

C (94:04)

Yeah.

A (94:04)

So sometimes you got to do that.

C (94:06)

Yeah, all the time. I do that. I mean, I. I didn't really hate my opponents, but I kind of hated them a little bit. I wanted to kill them, you know, on the. And I would listen to Lamb of God right before I went out there. I would be. I would get. I would try and get as angry as I possibly could because, hey, man, I mean, look, a little bit anger gives you a little bit of energy, a little bit more, you know, that little extra tiny bit of energy. If you can get that little bit of anger over a long period of time, if you could kind of show up to the practice a little angry about something, then you get a little bit more out of that training session over the course of nine months. You get a few seconds on the race course.

A (94:45)

Anger is a gift. Have you met Lamb and Lamb of God?

C (94:49)

No. You met Randy Blythe, though?

A (94:51)

I did.

C (94:51)

Jealous, dude.

A (94:52)

I did indeed.

C (94:53)

Are you gonna have him on the podcast?

A (94:54)

Probably.

C (94:55)

Have you. Have you read his book Dark Days?

A (94:57)

I have not.

C (94:57)

Oh, dude, can we do an aside?

A (95:00)

Yeah.

C (95:01)

He. Do you know what happened to him?

A (95:02)

No.

C (95:03)

In that book, you don't. You don't know about him going to jail and stuff.

A (95:05)

Go.

C (95:06)

So he shows up to Czech Republic.

A (95:09)

Oh, yeah, this.

C (95:10)

And he got arrested for murder. And it was, you know, false. But he spends like 61 days in jail, goes home to America, doesn't have to come back to Czech Republic, goes back anyway to stand trial knowing that they could go the wrong way for him just because he wanted to make sure that when, you know, one of his fans, families that died, knows what happened. So he just wanted to find the truth. So, I mean, extreme ownership. Yeah, right there. Anyway.

A (95:38)

Legit. Yeah. He was fired up when I met him.

C (95:41)

Out of so he knew who you were?

A (95:42)

Yeah, he listens to the podcast, bro. He was like. He was like, dude, can I get a picture? I'm like, hell, yeah, bro.

C (95:47)

Dude, you got to have him on somehow.

B (95:49)

Yeah.

C (95:49)

And I reach out to him, but, yeah, it'd be a great. That. That book would be a great book to. To cover for sure.

A (95:54)

Yeah. That was a wild. What, the guy died in the pit or something, right?

C (95:58)

Something like he dove off the stage, and they had a video of Randy, a different guy.

A (96:05)

Yeah.

C (96:06)

Like, I guess the guy was jumping off, and Randy kind of just went like that to him, and they're like, that's the guy. But then it turns out that guy in the video says, no, that was me. And it just turns out it was just, you know, completely false. But he just wanted to make sure that the family of the person that did die just knew what happened, knew what happened to the best of his ability. And so he went back to Czech Republic to stand trial, even though he didn't have to. He wasn't gonna get extra at it or anything.

A (96:30)

Yeah, I spent a lot of time in stage diving and stuff as a kid and in mosh pits and a lot of time in those, and they could get kind of crazy sometimes.

C (96:42)

I. I've been to a few Lamb of God concerts. One, I was on the outside of the mosh pit, and I got knocked over, and so I do not mess around in. Not mosh pits anymore. Mosh pits are not a good place for a double above me.

A (96:54)

Yeah, no. Mosh pits are also now. Not my. If I'm gonna get hurt, I'm gonna be do. I'm gonna get hurt doing jiu jitsu or.

C (97:01)

Yeah.

A (97:02)

Doing surfing or doing something like that. I'm not gonna get hurt catching a wheel kick to the back of the head or something during a turn. A freaking breakdown.

C (97:11)

Yeah, man.

A (97:12)

The last time I did was. Honestly, I was. I was at Black Sabbath. It was. It was at the Oz Fest, probably like seven or something like that. And I was. You know, I wasn't quite. I wasn't quite as mature as I am now, but I was standing in the back, and I was with my wife, and we were in Vegas, and we're standing in the back. It was. It was. The hockey rink was the general admission. There were seats, but then if you got. The best seats you could get was general admission. It was a big. It was the hockey rink. It was the size of a hockey rink. And we're standing at the back of the hockey rink and the Stage is up front and it's. Ozzy is up there playing. And so I'm cool. I'm listening to Ozzy. But Black Sabbath was coming on later, but they kicked into a Sabbath song. And I just, without even thinking, just like, just floored it. Just abandoned my wife and went straight to the front and went totally psycho nuts for the. For them playing. I think it was like, symptom of the universe or something or Hole in the sky, but I just went crazy and it was a little primal urge that came out.

C (98:22)

But you were married already.

A (98:23)

I was already married.

C (98:23)

Okay. So there's no going back for her.

A (98:25)

Oh, yeah, she was already. She was like. Yeah, she was like, I married an idiot. But now I see, you know, because I still go to, like, some hardcore shows sometimes. I'm kind of like. Yeah, I don't really feel, like, the need to jump in there and. And get my mosh on like I used to when I was a little.

C (98:40)

Younger back back then. I mean, did you go to, like, Black Flag and that kind of concert and Henry Rollins would be punching people in the audience? They'd be getting fights with the band?

A (98:49)

Yeah, no, I mean, I. That's the way literally I spent my youth was at those kind of concerts and in really, like, fit. Like, there's a place called CBGB's in New York which is a famous. The. The most famous iconic place back then.

C (99:01)

Yeah.

A (99:02)

And it was this tiny little place, and there would be shows there, and it would be insane. It would be crazy. And it was fun. Like, I had a blast. And. But you could definitely get hurt, and you could see people get hurt.

C (99:14)

Yeah.

A (99:15)

So. And I don't know, never died, but you could see how someone could dive.

C (99:19)

Yeah. If you're jumping off stage, you land the wrong. Let me ask you this about Black Flag because I really want to like Black Flag. Do you ever. Do you find that you. You do. You struggle to get into the. The rhythm of the song. I can never. I can never, like.

A (99:33)

Okay.

C (99:33)

Settle into the rhythm of the music.

A (99:35)

Let me just. Let me just. Let me just lay this out for you. Just. You need to go directly to Black Flag, my war side two.

C (99:44)

Okay.

A (99:44)

Yep. Black Flag, my war side, too. And that. That's kind of where, you know that. That album. That side of that album, when I was a kid, was on my record player that side for, like, 18 months straight. That was just in. In my head the whole time. Yeah, man. And that's just because they. It's the kind of. The initial sludge music yeah, you know, it's slower, it's heavy, it's rhythmic. And, you know, Greg Ginn, who's the guitar, so. Greg Ginn, if you listen to his guitarist, you're like, what is this noise? You know, because he plays weird. You know, I play guitar and he plays notes that don't really make sense sometimes. Yeah, but that's what he's playing. That's the noise that he's making. But, yeah, if you. If you get Black Flag, My War side to, you'll probably be able to adapt to it. And then you might be able. And then you can probably. Because there's a lot. There's Black Flag that I don't really particularly like too much, and there's also Black Flag that I am really into that, but that's the kind of the clutch scenario, but where you.

C (100:47)

Are you able to identify the rhythm and settle into that, or are you just happy not really being able to be in the. The rhythm of the music? I don't know if that makes any sense.

A (100:56)

I don't really know if that makes. I don't know if I understand that.

C (100:58)

Yeah, it's like something that you can. You know how. You know, the music has.

A (101:03)

Oh, yeah.

C (101:04)

Like timing.

A (101:05)

Yes.

C (101:05)

And you can, like, kind of bop your head to the.

A (101:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

C (101:08)

I can never, you know, figure out how to nod my head to a Black Flag song as much as I can, you know, like Lamb of God or.

A (101:15)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I think, you know, that's just by nature of the music. They. They figured out that there needed to be that and that there need to be, like, a rhythm and a breakdown, basically, is where they got.

C (101:27)

Yeah, yeah.

A (101:28)

And that Black Flag, my war side, too. There used to be a T shirt that said Black Flag. My war side, too. I never had it. I wish I would have had it. Maybe someday I'll get one of those. But Black Flag, my war side, too, because everyone kind of knew it was a different. They took what had been sort of just like hardcore punk rock and turned it into this other thing.

C (101:49)

Okay, and I'll try that side then.

A (101:51)

Yeah.

C (101:52)

But, yeah, Lamb of God, Slayer, that was my. That was my soundtrack when I was rowing, because it. Just having somebody scream in my ears.

A (101:58)

Yep.

C (101:59)

Fired me up.

A (102:00)

Yep. It's different. It's just like when I think about the guys that were, like, in Vietnam going to fight in combat and they were listening to, like.

C (102:09)

Whatever was ccr.

A (102:11)

Peter, Paul and Mary, you know, or whatever, like Bob Dylan. And meanwhile, like, our generation has got Slayer Reign in Blood. And, like, we're going to destroy everything, and, like, that's what we're doing.

C (102:22)

So you have to be an absolute savage to get fired up to Peter, Paul and Mary.

A (102:25)

Yeah. Yeah. Those guys. Maybe those guys were the next level guys.

C (102:29)

That's Tilt. What he was. He would listen to. We listen to Credence Revival.

A (102:36)

Number four, Faith. And this is really important because I know about that one. I said, that's the model of the Marine Corps. Semper Fidelis. It means always faithful. Yes. Brad pumped a fist. Every training session in every race, you have to know and believe that your partner is pulling with you for all they're worth. You have to know and believe that you've done everything you can to make yourself as fast as possible that day. You have to have faith that you will perform your best along with your partner. How do you gain that faith? Oxana and I waited by actually doing everything you can to be your best in every moment of every day. Sell your soul with each piece. When you need rest, do so wholeheartedly. Study your craft. Immerse yourself within it. As you do that, you will learn to trust yourself. Not only that, your partner will notice and they will trust you as well. So that's. That's. I talk about confidence. Like, how do you gain confidence? Practice. Rehearse.

C (103:33)

Yeah.

A (103:33)

Work your ass off and you will get more confident. I've never felt confident going into a room to do something that I've never done before that won't exist. That's a lie.

C (103:41)

Yeah.

A (103:41)

But when you train, you're ready. Like, you just feel confident you'll roll in there. That's like. That's how you get the faith, by working hard.

C (103:47)

Yeah.

A (103:49)

The last F Brad said is free play. And what that means is you get to figure out what the fourth F. It's yours.

C (103:58)

Yeah.

A (103:58)

You can make yours.

C (103:59)

I do not remember what my life I came up with on. I scoured through all my training manuals.

A (104:04)

I looked for it, too. I was like, I wonder what he used.

C (104:06)

I cannot remember what it was.

A (104:07)

Fearless.

C (104:08)

I had something good or, you know.

A (104:10)

Yeah. Fight what you got in here. And you should have put another. Forget. Forget what the 4 5th F was.

C (104:18)

That's what I did, too. I'm gonna. Yeah. I looked through all my training training journals. I could not find where I wrote it down. I'm gonna have to see if I can find it, though.

A (104:26)

This is cool. You pulled out your copy when he's, like, wrapping up coaching you.

C (104:30)

Oh, yeah.

A (104:32)

And you Pull out your copy of Olympian. Hey, will you sign this? And he signs it, gives it back to you. And. And you later pull it out. Look what he wrote. And he said, from one champion to another, Brad. Hell yeah. Legit. All right, so now we get done with all that training and it's time for the chapter nine, 2012. You're actually the Paralympic Games. And you use the term royalty here. Getting treated like royalty. You guys get treated pretty good.

C (104:58)

Yeah.

A (104:58)

Pretty awesome.

C (104:59)

Yeah. Yeah. When you go over there. Yeah, up to that point, for sure.

A (105:03)

Oh, you've been treated better than that now. Well, it seems like Olympic athletes get really good treatment.

C (105:12)

Yeah, you're getting treated really good when you go over there. For sure. We had our own personal security detail.

A (105:17)

Oh, dang.

C (105:18)

Yeah. But yeah, it's like all. There's vending machines everywhere. All the food you could possibly eat for free. You don't have to pay for anything. You're. They let you get away with stuff.

A (105:33)

What kind of. What kind of stuff?

C (105:36)

There are some antics after the. After the games, after you're done competing. There's some antics.

A (105:40)

Okay.

C (105:41)

Yeah, there's antics going on.

A (105:43)

I'm gonna read a little section here. You guys are out watching some of these other racers. I turned my head to the left and craned forward to wait for the great British legs, trunk and arms mixed cox four to emerge from beyond the cattails in lane eight directly in front of us. When it did, my eyes immediately focused on the girl at the bow of the yellow boat. Her almost white blonde hair was pulled back in a ponytail and partially covered a white. Partially covered by a white visor. Her back was tanned and toned as it pulled on her single or protruding out of the left side of the boat. As the boat passed in front of me, I could see her arms and legs were equally muscled and bronzed. Her eyes were hidden behind dark sunglasses. Her expression was serious, but I could easily tell that her face was beautiful. I didn't dare blink when the boat continued past, and I craned my neck as far to the right as it would go as it cruised into the distance, leaving behind only a gentle wake. Who was in the bow? I squinted my eyes to watch the boat for as long as possible before finally turning my back. Not sure. It's probably in the program they gave us. Oksana reached into her bag and flipped through the magazine Style program bow. Pam. Ralph. Is there a picture? No, just names. She is hot, I said. She rolls her eyes. You're ridiculous. We're here to race. Apparently Rob Jones was not just there to race the big race. So cool to read, especially from someone that doesn't know very much about rowing. It's very. You do a great job writing about that stuff. I'm gonna fast forward through this, get the book, get the details. You guys are racing. You're in last place, the terrorist said. That's the plan. We'll catch them. I hauled on the oars. You hope you're halfway and still in fifth. The terrorist cackled. We came into the final 250. Your body's breaking. The terrorist taunted like a drill instructor. The pain is too much. You need to back off. My brothers need me to be successful. The memories of screaming for life and the Afghan dirt flashed into my head. The pain in my body receded slightly and briefly. You can't maintain this. The terrorist screamed again as the pain returned. I grunted involuntarily with every stroke. Brad and our coaches deserve a medal. The response brought me another two strokes of reduced pain. Great Britain is too far ahead. You're going to finish for fourth. The terrorist screamed. Mon. And everyone needs to see me win. I bought myself a stroke sprint. Oksana said as we passed 125 meter buoy. And you guys haul ass as fast as you possibly can. You get across the finish line. I moved my eyes to focus on the results board that was conveniently situated to the finish tower. Next to the finish tower, it read, one China. Two France. No third place. Despite my body needing copious amounts of oxygen, I held my breath in my throat. The next five seconds felt like an eternity as we waited for results. 3rd USA. 4th Great Britain. 5th Australia. 6 Italy. The pain immediately receded as I pumped my fist in the air. So you guys got third place?

C (108:51)

Yeah, by about the length of this table.

A (108:53)

Dang.

C (108:53)

That's the. That's how close it was.

A (108:55)

And what was your. Were you guys an underdog?

C (109:00)

Yeah, I would definitely consider us to be under. Nobody knew who we were. We didn't. You guys came out at all? Yeah. With the previous four years, all these boats had been racing against each other at world championships, so they kind of knew who people were. And then we came in, they're like, all they knew about us was that we won the final Paralympic qualifier and they would know our time, but they really knew nothing about us. And we were small on the smaller side. I just started rowing, so yeah, I would definitely qualify us as a major underdogs.

A (109:30)

Hell, yeah. Third place. You just kind of alluded to this. There's some Major partying that's happening.

C (109:38)

There's some celebrations, there is some beer, being celebration ops.

A (109:42)

You meet Pam, you guys start hanging out. You guys start partying together at one point. Again, fast forward a little bit. I. This cracked me up because she's trying to get you to stay a little bit longer. And you guys have been chanting various things about drinking and chugging and all this stuff, and she's getting the team to chant, change your flight. Change your flight. She wants you guys. She wants you to stay longer. I thought that was kind of epic. She's definitely putting the pressure on you.

C (110:07)

Yeah, I was. I was on. I was on guard a little bit. I just left the Marine Corps. Never traveled outside of my own country, besides on deployment. So I was a little bit. Been to Iraq, Iraq, Afghanistan, oh, and I guess Serbia, that point for the race. But I, yeah, I was kind of on guard. But, yeah, she convinced me, changed my flight. Cost me like $2,000.

A (110:31)

Yeah. So you end up staying. You end up, you know, making some. Making some very good connection with Pam. I got this highlighted for some reason back when I was in therapy on the day I learned to ride a bicycle again by myself, my prosthesis suggested I should ride my bike across the country. He was mostly joking, but I'm thinking about trying it. So again, you guys are talking about, like, what you're gonna do next and. Yeah, and you're. You know, when the guy made a kind of joke a month earlier about biking across America, like I said, it landed and it stuck. So you. That's what you decide you're gonna do, is bike across America?

C (111:09)

Yeah. The whole time I did rowing, it was important, important part of my story, obviously. But the whole time I did it, pretty much from the very beginning. I kind of knew in the back of my mind that it wasn't going to be something I wanted to do for a long period of time. And as I talk about in the book a little bit, I could never really identify the greater purpose in it. Just felt like I was seeking glory for myself, essentially. I mean, I'm going to be the one up on the podium and I'm seeking a medal. That's. So I. I struggled with that the entire time I rode. And I was always kind of looking for something that could bring back that greater purpose.

A (111:49)

So that's what you decided going to do. You get your brother to join you, like in a box truck that you guys converted, and you're going to start up in Maine, you're going to go to Imperial beach is the initial plan, which is the absolute other side of the country.

C (112:02)

Diagonally.

A (112:02)

Yep. Diagonally across the country. And you take this book, this. This vehicle, and you write on it. On the back, it says, this truck is following Rob Jones on his bike Ride across America in support of veteran charities. You can follow to www.robjonesjourney.com. on the side, the letters read, rob Jones Journey in support of veteran charities. Miles so far. Zero. Miles to go. 5,400. That's how long the trip was going to be. And the training that you do for this is nothing pretty much like, hey, I've been rowing, I've been running, I've been riding a bike. That's good enough. I'll get in shape while I'm out there on the road.

C (112:46)

That was my theory. I mean, I could stay here in Charlottesville and ride in circles for three months and get ready and prepare or make progress or just start.

A (112:56)

Yeah.

C (112:57)

I didn't have a timeline, so it didn't really make too much of a difference.

A (112:59)

Yeah. So, yeah, the idea was just to make it happen.

C (113:02)

Just to make it across. Yeah.

A (113:05)

Fast forward a little bit. You're getting your first interview, details the ride. You know, the guy's kind of talking through that kind of stuff, and he says, rob, why are you doing this? I paused briefly and I said, I'm doing this because I believe that people should continuously push themselves in order to find what they are capable of and to continue to grow. It took me a long time to learn how to ride a bicycle again after my injury, and so I want to use that skill. Are you hoping to inspire people with this ride? Oh, definitely. I hope that people hear about this ride, and when they try to do something hard, they think, well, if Rob Jones can do that bike ride, then I can do whatever it is I'm trying to do. So there you go. Yeah, there's a lot of cool details in here, like the. The pedals that are breaking, which is a big deal because they make you basically fall off your bike, which is terrible.

C (113:51)

Few times.

A (113:52)

And there's like, all these little things that you don't really think of, like, strategically, how do you start and stop and right. Are you doing in the right location? And if you get stopped in a bad location, got a lot of that stuff going on. And meanwhile, you're also trying to raise money.

C (114:07)

Yeah.

A (114:07)

And you've got this woman, Tina, on board that's helping you raise money. And at one point, again, fast forward, you. You have this conversation, or she has a conversation with you, she says, can I be honest with you? And again, she's the one that's running your fundraising. And you say, sure. It doesn't really work that way. I've been doing philanthropy for many years, and you really won't raise anything significant without putting an equal amount of work into promotion as you do into actually riding the bike. I wish you didn't have to, because I know it's monotonous, and I know you don't enjoy complimenting yourself, but it's the nature of this kind of thing. I appreciate that you're doing this to test your limits, but you can do so much more. And you kind of ponder on that for a little while, and then finally you tell your buddy, tell it to you. Tell Stevie, your brother, hey, why don't you call her and say, screw it, Schedule all the interviews and receptions she wants.

C (114:56)

Yeah, there's a little bit of internal turmoil on this. On this mission, because my primary focus was push myself to see what I could do. And then when I did, I figured, oh, I might as well raise money for veteran charities, too, because it'd probably be something that I could. I could do some good with. But eventually those two things kind of came into conflict with one another. And at that moment, you know, that was kind of a critical moment. But then throughout the course of the bike ride, I'd never really. That turmoil was never completely. Never really went away, and it caused some just internal challenges for me later on that kind of made the bike ride. I never really felt settled with it. I never. I didn't feel completely satisfied after we finished it, but there was always that little bit of internal turmoil on the bike ride. And I figured out what it was later on when we. When we get to the month of marathons, and I'll describe it to you then. But, yeah, at this point, there's still a little bit of a internal turmoil going on in my head.

A (115:58)

Yeah. Fast forward a little bit. Eminence. Missouri. It took 21 days to traverse the Appalachian Mountains. Mountains. Stevie and I spent Christmas Eve in a cozy cabin in Missouri when the hinge on my left leg snapped in half. We enjoyed an unexpected Christmas day off in a hotel. We used the day to replace the truck's tires, which were bald from uneven wear. You guys are just.

C (116:20)

The truck is not in good shape.

A (116:22)

It's a disaster. You bought it for 400 bucks or something.

C (116:25)

Yeah, it's like 220,000 miles on it. That'll make it across the country.

A (116:30)

Fast forward a little bit, because it's kind of a critical moment. Critic Monarch Pass, Colorado. Shortly before bedtime, Tina called. I've been talking with lots of locals. They're telling that Monarch is unpassable with a bike right now. I was wondering if you consider driving over. She said, no, not even if I have to wait until spring. I'm gonna ride over this mountain.

C (116:48)

Yeah.

A (116:49)

So Monarch Pass in Colorado, this is like high altitude was almost 12,000ft. There's bad weather coming through. There's slush, there's snow. The shoulders covered in snow. There's black ice, which has made you fall in the past. Like, this is a big one. You're. You're waiting. You're checking a. A, like a camera system that set.

C (117:10)

Up camera at the peak. Yeah.

A (117:12)

Then you keep checking it and finally I woke up one morning. I opened my laptop to the Monarch Pass page. The text at the top still read, monarch Pass is open. Through the camera feed, I could make out small patches of asphalt that I hadn't seen the day before. When I turned on the light, Stevie. When I turned the light on, Stevie rolled over. Are we riding? Not sure yet, I replied. Let's go eat breakfast and look again. After eating chewy bacon muffins and mini Colorado omelets made with powdered eggs, we returned to the room and I checked the feed. The road looked like a plow had gone through as patches of asphalt had expanded and cars were traveling at a decent rate. I closed my laptop and said, let's just go for it, man. Stevie raised his eyebrows and smiled. Right on. And then you go through this freaking grueling, you know, it's nine miles to the summit, elevation 7,000ft, grade 4.5%. And you go up. It's like five kilometers an hour distance 11 kilometers elevation. You're gaining six feet for every hundred feet you travel. It's freaking brutal. At one point in this chaos and freezing cold, after waddling the truck and getting in the cab, I reached over and turned on the heat. And full blast. I need the doctor. Are you okay? Dr. Pepper to your brother.

C (118:32)

That was my fuel.

A (118:34)

Just needed that more fuel. There's like snow everywhere. There's channels from the cars driving through them. I pedaled between 10ft of snow banks in a battle between pain and hope. And you go get the book. You go a lot through a lot of, like, what you're doing mentally. Like these. You. You play like four or five different little mental games counting the lines in the road. Do, like looking at your computer, not looking at you. It's just so it's very cool to get a little peek inside your mind as you're doing these brutal endurance challenges.

C (119:07)

Yeah, it's all about shifting focus. Regularly shifting focus. If you feel like you're getting a little bit too tired right now, just focus on the next few feet. If you feel you're getting tired in a different way, you focus on the top. Shift your focus where you need to shift it. And then. Yeah, sometimes it helps to just be in the dark about how far you've gone. Because if you look at the wrong time and you see I'm so tired, I've only gone one mile, it can crush you.

A (119:35)

The grade in the computer and fast forwarding. The grade on the computer dropped from 6% to 4% to 2%, then zero. As I reached the crust, my elevation read 11,312ft. My bike rolled over the peak, and I turned left and plowed through several inches of snow into the parking lot to the gift shop. Stevie pulled in behind me and got out. You did it. That was brutal. All those people said it couldn't be done. Stevie smiled. Just goes to show you, just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true, no matter how much of an expert they are. It's little fu.

C (120:06)

I am aware. Yeah, because somebody says something doesn't mean it's true.

A (120:14)

You go through, what, California or you. Sorry, Nevada, then Utah. And I'm gonna fast forward a little bit. Camp Pendleton is right there. Dad pointed further down the road. Now you start pulling into Camp Pendleton, which is where you. You shifted your finish from IB north to Camp Pendleton, which is way more appropriate.

C (120:36)

It was a sacrifice that I determined worthy to shift a little bit more towards that fundraising aspect.

A (120:42)

After 5, 400 miles, I don't think.

C (120:44)

The extra, like, 5,181 was the. The total.

A (120:48)

Damn, dude. You're driving in. The Marines are seeing you. Ooh, Raw. Semper Fi. You did it. You're a hero. Semper fy. Raw Marine. Thanks for your service. You're incredible. And you pedal in. They kind of close in around you. Get your feet out of the clips, find your mom, hug your mom, all fired up. And then fast forward a little bit. You go up to give kind of your speech. Right. I stood and waddled three to the three feet to the podium. I didn't really write anything. I've been pretty busy. I started listening a laugh. I'd just like to say thank you. Everybody up here is praising me, but the truth is, I never could have gotten out here without my team of people that helped me along the way. My mom, Carol. My dad Lenny. My stepmom Karen, and my sister Allison when I was a kid. My fellow Marines who fought with me and saved my life. The doctors, physical therapists and prosthesis who fixed me up and got me back on my feet. Ray Clark, who was an instrumental in me learning how to ride a bike again. My rowing partner, Oksana. And our coaches in the Paralympics. My girlfriend, Pam. Team Rob, who kept me as warm and dry as possible on a bike ride across the country in the winter. Most of all, my little bro, Stevie, who probably had a tougher job than I did. And all of you and the people along the way that took me in and supported me when we've all shown what is possible when people work together. There you go.

C (122:18)

Yeah, I was up there receiving the accolades, but I didn't. All I did was ride a bike. All those other people did all the other hard work that got me to where I was going. It's not hard to ride a bike.

A (122:32)

I would say when you ride your bike 5,000 miles, that might.

C (122:35)

All right, it's a little hard.

A (122:36)

But isn't the, isn't it like a major problem? Like the. Your ass getting chafed when you ride a bike that much?

C (122:45)

Yeah, man. I mean, you get used to it. You mean more and more. The more you ride, the more you get used to it. But, I mean, it's a little bit gross. But I had tubs of, tubs of Vaseline. I would just slather on my, on my butt. I'd be like a little slug sitting on the seat, like Vasol. So that helped. But yeah, I mean, over time, and then all the riding in, my stomps would get blisters on them too. So chafing is a major problem when you're riding your bike that far.

A (123:20)

You pulled it off. Fast forward a little bit. Pam and I spent two months in England, almost constantly at each other's sides. So you feeling like pretty good connection here? Of course. Fast forward a little bit. You start triathlon training.

C (123:34)

Yeah.

A (123:35)

You'd only ra. I only raced two. You. You decided you're going to try for triathlon in the Paralympics, right?

C (123:41)

Yeah.

A (123:41)

Or just in general.

C (123:42)

I kind of made a big mistake on the bike ride. I didn't have a plan for what I was going to do after I was done and I was sitting there going, well, I either want to be a stand up comedian or I'm going to try and go to the Paralympics again for a Triathlon. And I figured Pam was still training for the Paralympics, so I might as well. She was going to do rowing, defend her title. And so I figured I might as well just try and do the Paralympics. I figured I was in pretty good cycling shape.

A (124:08)

And how much progress did you make down the stand up comedian route? You were part of a documentary.

C (124:14)

It's part of a documentary called Comedy Warriors. When I was in the hospital where these film producers found five wounded veterans and they flew it, they would fly us out to Los Angeles and we'd go and they would rent out one of the bigger comedy clubs. Like they rented out the Laugh Factory and the Improv and they had big name comedians like Bob Saget and Zach Galifianakis watch our sets. We perform five minutes for them. They would give us some pointers and then that night we would go and perform on stage for a live audience. And so we did that three or four times and they made a documentary on it, did all these interviews and stuff. And yeah, I was getting, I was getting laughs. So I figured I would had a good, you know, I was possible that I might be able to be a stand up comedian. And then as when I was training for triathlon, I was living in Salt Lake City. I did some open mics and stuff. And then after the Paralympics, before the month of marathons, I was going into D.C. and doing open mics there. And yeah, I was getting into it and doing pretty good. Like I said, if I kept with it that, you know, probably would have been bigger than Joe Rogan, but, you know, no, but yeah, I had a good talent for it. It was.

A (125:25)

Did any of the people from that group, like, stick with it and keep doing it?

C (125:29)

Yeah, there's a guy named Bobby Hentlein that is, I don't know how big he is right now, but he stuck with it. And Good Joe Cash now is another guy that stuck with it. And they're, I think they're both doing, you know, doing pretty well.

A (125:42)

Doing all right.

C (125:44)

Yeah, I think so.

A (125:45)

Making people laugh.

C (125:46)

Yeah.

A (125:48)

So you didn't go that route, you went this triathlon route?

C (125:51)

Yeah, that's why I ended up choosing at that time.

A (125:53)

And you did you say, I only raised two sanctioned events in 2015, didn't finish in the top five in either one of them. You'd. Of course you get online and you see the Marine Corps Marathon, the 40th Marine Corps Marathon, and you see that little register button. So you click on that going into this Marine Corps Marathon. Here we go. Dang. I said To a dang. I said to a wounded veteran sitting in in his hand cycle. He was missing both. Missing both legs above the knee and one arm above the elbow. He was missing. His missing arm was replaced by a bright yellow prosthetic socket with an artificial hand attached to the handle of the hand cycle. I've already walked two miles and we haven't even started yet. In response, he turned and Chucky chuckled knowingly. Oh, hey Tim, I said. Haven't seen you since Walter Reed. I heard you were doing well with the hand cycling. Hey, man, he replied. Are you running the whole marathon? That's the plan. You always were crazy. He laughed. Unless I'm successful, then I'm a genius. I smirked.

C (126:57)

So you're a common refrain whenever I tell people say you did the month of marathon to your bike across the country. You're crazy. But. And I say. That's what I say. But I was successful, so I'm actually a genius. If I had failed, I would have been crazy. But one point of distinction with the. The triathlon is one of the things I did was there was two. There's two categories I could have raced in. There was one that was kind of meant for double above knee amputees where you ride a hand cycle and a racing wheelchair. But I didn't want to do that for. Because I had spent so much time learning how to ride a bicycle and learn how to run. So I had to compete up a category. But in that category I was racing against guys that had one good leg still. So. So I purposefully chose the harder path because that's just what I wanted to do. And I figured if I would just. If I worked hard enough, I could probably catch up to those guys. Didn't work out that way. But because I trained my running so much, I ended up running the Marine Corps Marathon. And then that sent me on a completely different path, which we'll get to shortly.

A (128:02)

Yeah. Because you end up not getting. You get eliminated from like the trials.

C (128:06)

I never even had a chance. I mean, because you.

A (128:08)

You literally are competing with one less leg.

C (128:11)

I would just get zero. Yeah. Yeah, they would. Absolutely.

A (128:16)

What would they beat you in?

C (128:17)

The hand cycle, swimming and the bike. So they were riding. Everybody was riding a regular bike, me and.

A (128:23)

Oh, but they have one leg.

C (128:24)

They had one full intact leg. So they would crush me in the transitions. My transitions would take a long time. They beat me in the swim, they beat me on the bike. I beat them on the run. I would crush them on the run by three minutes. But the Gap was so wide at that point that. Yeah. And there's a whole point system with triathlon. It's not like rowing where you just go and race and whoever wins the race gets to be the team that go to the Paralympics. It's like a point system. And it was a very convoluted system that it takes a long time to break into. Like you have to have points in order to go. In order to go to races that get you points. So it's kind of this really strange system. And I didn't know any of that.

A (129:03)

So it wasn't just triathlon, it was math.

C (129:04)

Yeah.

A (129:05)

You didn't stand a chance. Check. And then you get to say, what if I ran a bunch of back to back marathons? What about that? And then you reference this guy and I think this is who you might have been referencing earlier. Iron cowboy who did 50 Iron man triathlons in 50 states in 50 days. It was that kind of the person that you said.

C (129:24)

Ah, him and this guy named Richard Whitehead who was a double above knee amputee that attempted 40 marathons in 40 days in England.

A (129:31)

How'd he do?

C (129:33)

I think he hand cycled a couple of them, so I don't know how many he actually did, but he did a lot. A bunch of them. But I saw that those two things kind of gave me the idea talking to Pam.

A (129:44)

She kind of recommends 22. Like, you know, as in 22 suicides a day. The number that we hear a lot. You wanted to do 50 and then finally, finally you decide on doing a full month of marathons. And by full month, we mean 31.

C (130:02)

Yeah, a full month.

A (130:02)

Not 28.

C (130:03)

Yeah.

A (130:04)

Not 30, but 31. And that's what you decide to do. Now the training begins. And this one you have to train for.

C (130:11)

Yeah. Because there's a time limit. I, I owe that marathon every day where the b. The bike ride. I could take a, A week off and it doesn't really make a difference, but the, the month of marathons, every day I had to run a marathon. So yeah, got to train for that.

A (130:23)

The training begins. And that is a lot, dude. Because what's crazy is like I, we talk about sometimes I forget what the time is, but people say it takes like when you, when you run a marathon, it takes like months to recover from.

C (130:39)

Yeah.

A (130:39)

Have you ever heard that?

C (130:40)

Yeah, I think, I think I've heard. What was it, two weeks of doing nothing. But yeah, you usually don't want to run another marathon for many months.

A (130:50)

So doing one the next day and then the next day, and then the next day and then the next day. And part of it in your mind and you. You talk about this in the book is like, you kind of realize that it's almost going to be like a race against the clock of just like, how long can you just keep. Keep. Like you're losing. It's a losing battle. Yeah, it's a losing battle. Like eventually you will. You won't be able to do this. But can you hang on long enough.

C (131:17)

Yeah.

A (131:18)

Each day to make this happen.

C (131:20)

Yeah, that's what I figured was going to be the case. And it mostly was, but except for the first couple weeks.

A (131:27)

Now in the middle of this. Let me pull this from the book right here. Uncle Sam, the Statue of Liberty, and Wonder Woman exited the hotel lobby and walked to the Las Vegas monorail. I'm taking that out of context. Explain it. What does that mean? What's going on? Why is the Statue of Liberty, Uncle Sam and Wonder Woman in Vegas? What's happening?

C (131:50)

Well, as you well know from marrying your lovely wife, there is a quite a complex administrative process that one must undergo in order to bring a wife over from England. And so I decided I wanted to marry Pam after the Paralympics. I proposed by training to fall down on purpose, but make it look like an accident so I could get down onto one knee. I walked back and forth in my dad's basement a bunch of times practicing falling down. Managed to convince her to say yes. And after that, began this long process. You got to do this paperwork. Gets come. You wait five, six months, it comes back. Then you apply for the visa, and then you wait for the visa to come back. And then after she had her fiance visa, then she has to come to America and you have to get married within 90 days. That's how long the visa is good for.

A (132:44)

So I did this exact same process.

C (132:46)

And every time, you're paying more and more money. And so she was ready to come over in July, and we wanted to get married on a special day, so we picked July 4th. But as you might suspect, in the D.C. area, everything's closed July 4th. So we figured, you know, what's going to be open is Vegas. So we figured, let's go to Vegas. So she landed July 3rd. We flew out there to Las Vegas and to, you know, we looked into getting an Elvis, but Elvis has been totally commercialized. You have to, like, pay an extra Elvis fee. So we figured we're not gonna do that. So we found somebody on Craigslist. But in order to.

A (133:26)

It's Classic dude, you found someone Craigslist.

C (133:30)

That was just a minister, ordained minister. And so in order to really still be in the Vegas, you know, kind of getting married in Vegas kind of vibe, we dressed up. I dressed up as Uncle Sam. She put together a Statue of Liberty, Statue of Liberty costume. And then her friend came out to be our witness. Her name is Alice. And she dressed up as Wonder Woman. And then so we got the marriage license July 3, July 4, we hung out, you know, met the, the minister at the High Roller in Vegas, which is a big carousel in the drinking cart. And at the top we, he said the did the ceremony, got married.

A (134:11)

Oh, that's freaking epic, dude.

C (134:13)

And then we had a formal ceremony the next year.

A (134:15)

But that's how that worked if you want the details. I, I know they say what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, but the details are not this. I was talking about the training that you're doing and you got a little clip in here of like a what a week looks like Monday. Run two hours at maffetone heart rate. What's a maffetone heart rate?

C (134:39)

Maffetone heart rate is just a way to calculate your maximum aerobic heart rate. And so you say how they say in order to, you don't want to run, you want to take a big break after you run a marathon. Well, part of the reason for that is most people run a marathon all out. They run one marathon all out. But what I figured was if you run at a sub maximal pace, then you, if I could run that pace and keep going, that's how, that's what I would need to do. If I wanted to be able to run the next day, I would have to run it at some sort of sub maximal pace. And there's a threshold between aerobic respiration and anaerobic aspiration. Respiration, as I'm sure you're aware. And so once you cross over into that anaerobic threshold or you're into the anaerobic, more byproducts get created by your body, which breaks your body down. So I need, I knew I needed to stay aerobic. And that's the, what Maffetone method is, is you take 180, you subtract your age and that is a good estimate for where your maximum aerobic threshold is. So as long as you do all your training below that and as long as I ran below that, I figured that is the best way for me to be able to run day after day after day.

A (135:57)

So that's what you're doing two hours of that on Monday, Tuesday, gym and core strength. Wednesday is run two hours once again at the maffetome. Heart rate. Thursday, long run. How long is the long run?

C (136:09)

It started at 20 miles. And then for the last 12 weeks, I still, I noticed that when I, I did all these, I would do test marathons where I would go out and I would try and run two and then the next six weeks later try and run three, and then four and then five. And I kind of noticed that I was still the. The marathon distance still felt a little bit daunting to me. So at that point, the last 12 weeks, I figured I should run a marathon every Thursday so that it sort of becomes. Starts to become more commonplace psychologically in my mind. So the last 12 weeks was 26.2 miles every Thursday.

A (136:46)

Yeah, full marathon Friday, 90 minute run. Saturday, gym and core strength, Sunday, rest. So that's what you did. And how long did you do that for?

C (136:57)

It was about a year and a half of that. Kind of. Not to that level. Yeah, I started slowly and gradually, but the whole training process was a year and a half. But on the back end of doing triathlon for a year and a half and then also the bike ride before that, also roaring before that. So I had a big cardiovascular base.

A (137:18)

Yeah, you're getting there. Yeah, that's a lot of running, dude. And I'm gonna. Does. Does when you're running with your prosthetics, is it more core? It seems like it would be more core, the way you kind of like shift back and forth.

C (137:33)

Yeah, I don't know if I would say it's more core than your average person, but yeah, I mean, it's certainly in order to balance, it would be all core for me because that's all I have to balance is glutes and my abs in order to maintain stability. But really for me, it was just once I get the bounce going, I just have to maintain the bounce of the legs. So really it was. Yeah, I mean, I would say it was core because I would plant my foot and then I would rotate my torso to. To keep the momentum going. So, yeah, I'd be the rotation of my torso. So, yeah, check.

A (138:11)

And then you're just lifting because you just don't want to look jacked.

C (138:14)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I still want to maintain the guns. You got to maintain the guns. But then I would be. But I would be focusing on. On maintaining core strength because, yeah, I was going to be up on my doing that for six hours. So I wanted to maintain core Strength as well. And then, yeah, I mean, my arms would get tired from that motion.

A (138:35)

I'm going to fast forward a little bit to where it begins. And believe it or not, you start in England. Why are you starting in England? The interviewer asked a couple reasons. I shift my weight back and forth between my running feet to stay upright. First, because through my wife, I've met a lot of British service members. Second, because the United States isn't fighting a lot right now and rarely ever does. And I know that the military people in this country are experiencing a lot of the same struggles as American service members are. So I wanted to show solidarity with our allies in this fight. You meet a bunch of them. I heard you on Jocko podcast. A bunch of them said, little shout out to Echo Charles over there.

C (139:08)

The vast majority of people that came out to support me.

A (139:11)

That's awesome, man. Two men with high and tight haircuts approached me lot last. One tall and lean, the other short and stocky. We're rural Marines. We want to support our brothers and sisters from across the pond. The Royal Marine, the short Royal Marine told me as we shook hands. Everybody. Pam yelled, can we have everybody gather round, please? Rob would like to say something. And then we're going to do a photo. Gradually, all 30 people present gathered around me in a semicircle. You know, I started, when a veteran comes home, he might struggle. They might struggle and think that they're alone in the world, and they might think that nobody cares about them. But I think that we're proving here today, with this group running and people showing me support disproves that. And it proves that Great Britain, America, Canada, all these countries that are allied together love veterans, appreciate their veterans, and all they have to do is ask, and we will reach out to help them. This proves that. So let's do it.

C (140:03)

Yeah, I mean, this is what I'm. I was alluding to earlier when I talked about the internal. Internal turmoil on the bike ride. And in that speech or that little talk that I gave, there is the crux of what it was. And so when I was in the Marine Corps, I was a corporal, so I was. I was a leader. I was a leader of Marines. I was a corporal of Marines. And then when I got wounded, my team was back in Afghanistan and I was just me in the clinic. So I just figured at that point, I'm just. This is me. I'm just a guy. I'm just a guy now. I'm not a leader anymore. And I kind of continued on with That I figured, oh, well, I'm gonna go to the Paralympics. But I'm just a guy that's training for the Paralympics. I'm not a leader. And then the bike ride, kind of same thing. I just wanted to be a guy that was riding his bike across the country. And look, if people get something good from it, awesome. But I'm not. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm not here to, you know, give a speech or anything like that. I don't have a message. I don't have anything like that. I just want to ride my bike across the country, raise some money, and just kind of do my thing. And I said earlier about how I. I failed to be able to recognize the greater purpose in rowing, and that was why the bike ride, I had that turmoil, because I still wasn't really recognizing a greater purpose. It was still about me. It's about finding my path or finding my, you know, my limits, pushing myself, seeing what I was capable of. And it was the month of marathons where I finally figured out. And, you know, you've heard my speech at muster about how I recognize that. That shift in the perspective of veterans about how we're kind of all seen as broken heroes now, and nobody's really doing anything about that. And I realized in that moment, when I recognized that, that what I had been missing this entire time was I was. I had been ignoring that call to be a leader in my, you know, in my community for the people that I still cared about. And so when I recognized that even though the month of marathons was incredibly difficult, I. I felt exactly where I needed to be, because I finally embraced that. That. That need to lead, as Dave Burke puts it.

A (142:18)

Yeah, you had to put your legs on.

C (142:20)

Yeah.

A (142:20)

You know, as Rob Jones puts it. So it just. This is just. I mean, it's. You go from England, you go to Philadelphia, you hit New York. I mean, it's like you are just charging. And next up, Detroit, Toronto, Boston. Explain how you broke up the runs. Like, because you weren't doing 26 miles straight like a regular marathon. You were doing 26.2 miles every 24 hours.

C (142:49)

Yeah.

A (142:50)

So you'd break it up. How would you explain. Kind of explain it.

C (142:52)

Yeah. I mean, too. So to the point that I was making earlier, I had to make sure I did it in a sustainable way. I wasn't trying to break a record every time I ran the month. Every time I ran a marathon, I was trying to. I was running for completion of the month of Marathons. And so I made sure that my pace stayed under that aerobic heart rate. So I didn't, you know, so I didn't produce all those byproducts that would break my body down. And then what I did was the way that I broke down the distance was I ran four blocks, 12 km for the first one. And then I would take a 20 minute break where I would just sit in a chair, eat something, drink, talk to people. And then we get back up. I would do another 12km and I would sit down in my chair again, eat. I would actually take my legs off, wipe them down, reapply the shammy cream that I put on the, you know, places where I would get blisters. And then I would run, I think 9.2 kilometers, take a break, 20 minute break, and then I'd finish it off with another 8 kilometer chunk. And depending on where I was, what we did was we would park the rv.

A (143:59)

Why did you go? British kilometer system?

C (144:02)

I don't know. I'm not sure how. I just kind of determined kilometers.

A (144:06)

What made you do that, you know.

C (144:07)

Oh, you know what it was. It's another psychological trick because it's a lot easier to click off kilometer after kilometer. So 26 miles I would have to get in order to get one more. It's a lot easier to get one more kilometer than is one mile. So I think that's what it was.

A (144:23)

A little bit smaller of a scale.

C (144:25)

Yeah. So this is trying to identify that next little point that I was running to. 1 km is a lot more. More. You can check them off a lot faster. So it keeps the progress clicking over good. And so we would park the RV at like a trailhead or somewhere close to a park. And if it was a trail, I would run two and a half kilometers in one direction, two and a half kilometers back, and I'd go the other direction, two and a half back to two and a half. So. And I would do that because I would always, I wanted to stay close to the rv, just in case you had to go to the bathroom or needed water, needed food or something like that. I was never too far away from it. And then also a psychological game where all I had to do is just run two and a half kilometers that direction. Very achievable, psychologically achievable. And then when I got out there, all I had to do is just run back to where I came from and then just do that over and over again and, you know, and break it down into a block. So I'm only doing 12km. And then if I did loops in a park, like for example in New York, I ran around this, in Central park, around this lake called the Harlem mirror. I ran 25 times around the Harlem Mirror. It's like 25 is a pretty achievable number. I can see myself doing 25 of something. And so I would just run 25. So it was a little psychological game to keep me going.

A (145:46)

Yeah, that worked.

C (145:48)

Yeah.

A (145:48)

Yeah. And that's again, those are some of the things that you break down in the book. Although you didn't break down one. Why use kilometers in the book until right now?

C (145:54)

Yeah, that's good to know that.

A (145:57)

It's good to know. You do Columbus, you do Louisville, you do Chicago, you do St. Louis, Denver, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Portland, and the longest trip, or, Sorry, San Francisco. 12 hours on the road to get there. Then it's down to San Diego. When you're in San Diego going to the book, we crossed paths several times with the same BUDS class that was on their own run. On the last time we passed them, the instructor yelled Rob Jones. And the well disciplined SEAL trainees repeated in unison, hoo ya, Rob Jones. And there's video that I've seen the video. Pretty outstanding.

C (146:38)

Helen Willink came out that day.

A (146:40)

Did she come out that day? Yeah, that's right, she did.

C (146:42)

Yeah.

A (146:44)

Helen Willink putting in the miles with, with Rob Jones.

C (146:48)

Unfortunately, I did leave her in the dust. Yeah, I feel bad.

A (146:52)

No, I told her before she went out, she's like, did I smoke him? And I said, no, no, just let him, let him win. Let him win.

C (146:57)

This is his thing. Don't show him up too.

A (146:59)

Don't make him look bad.

C (147:01)

She did say, oh, I pulled a hammy. I pulled the hammy.

A (147:04)

Yeah, she was. I wasn't gonna let her crush you. Phoenix, Albuquerque, San Antonio. Now you get in this just. This is humidity is my biggest weakness. Makes me sweat even more than the sweat can't evaporate and that makes everything chafe so bad. On top of that, it just takes out of me physically. So we're getting down to Texas and it's freaking hot.

C (147:25)

Texas was brutal, dude. That was the start of the decline. Texas.

A (147:29)

Did you recognize that going in.

C (147:34)

That Texas was going to be bad? Yeah, no, I did not expect Texas to be that hot in November, late October, November.

A (147:41)

I didn't expect bad luck with the weather.

C (147:42)

Yeah, I'm just dumb for not recognizing that Texas might be hot and humid in, in October. But yeah, it was like, it was. I Think it was a heat wave? Yeah, a little bit of a heat wave because it was San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, back to back to back, and Houston was just absolutely. You know, I woke up 90. Humidity was just super hot. And. Yeah.

A (148:05)

Is the equivalent of like walking with your legs and your stumps. Would that be like low crawling all day on your elbows type thing?

C (148:13)

I don't know if it would be.

A (148:14)

Maybe like knee pads. Knee pads on your elbow pads, and you're going around on them all day.

C (148:18)

Yeah, I'd say elbow pads, but maybe a little bit. A little bit smoother because the. The thing that is rubbing against my stump is a. It's silicone, so it's very smooth and it's very soft. But even, you know, even if you rub silk on your arm enough times, it's still gonna. Still gonna rub off. But yeah. So you add heat and humidity to that, it just forms a blister just like it would, you know, on a. On a hike. So, yeah, be like, if you were just walking in the desert with nice comfortable socks for long enough, if it gets hot and wet enough, this is still gonna chafe.

B (148:55)

Yeah.

A (148:56)

Yep. So you're down there in Texas. Some of the stuff here. Heart rate goes to 150 immediately. Your times are 20 minutes slower than they usually were. So that's. That's on a 12 kilometer block.

C (149:10)

Yeah, it's taking a while.

A (149:12)

Just humid. You turn to your mom at one point. Can I. Can you get my headphones? I need some Rocky music.

C (149:19)

I did need rock. She was spraying this stuff called biofreeze on my stump. So it was like a kind of like an icy hot just to try and numb it.

A (149:26)

I think.

C (149:26)

At this point, I was taken 4 Tylenol for Advil just by default every morning just to try and help. Because for the first three miles or mile and a half of the day, it would just be brutal on the stumps. Would be killing me. But. But to your point that you made earlier, eventually after the first mile and a half, it. That pain went away. But every time I got back out, I had to restart that whole thing. But, yeah, I was taken. I was trying to do everything I could to just to keep going at that point.

A (149:55)

Yeah, there's like a certain amount of time when you're like on a long patrol and you stop for a break. If you stop for too long, all the pain resets. Yeah, it's like, no, just keep freaking going.

C (150:05)

Yeah, don't stop.

A (150:08)

Fast forward a little bit. You're hurting and out. Used to get out of your RV. Out. Step 12. Jacked young men with military haircuts, gigantic thighs, huge shoulders, wearing brown shorts and short black running shorts. Out of our driver's seat stepped an older version of these men. Mr. Jones? The older gentleman shook my hand. My name is Tom. I'm the physical trainer for the Air Force Combat Controller School here. I saw you were coming through on the news and these guys are due for a run today, so I figured I'd bring them out here to join you, if that's okay. Hell yeah. That's just what I need.

C (150:38)

Those guys saved my butt that day.

A (150:40)

Just keeping you freaking in the game.

C (150:41)

I was by myself. Usually I would have runners, but I didn't have any that day. In the morning and I was hurting. It was San Antonio, humid. And then all of a sudden these guys show up and they start running with me in formation, singing cadences, talking trash on Navy seals. Oh yeah? Yeah. So those guys really saved my butt.

A (151:00)

That's awesome. What kind of trash were they talking?

C (151:03)

I'm trying to remember. They had. They had one. One cadence that went something like Combat Controller kissing Megan Fox and Carolyn Transformers. They said something about Navy seals like I was. It wasn't that bad.

A (151:18)

No, I'm just kidding. I don't care.

C (151:21)

You took that personally.

A (151:22)

Yeah. No one's ever said anything bad. Next up is Houston. You say here. As the sun rose and the heat rose, my cadre of runners dwindled to one. A fellow Marine who wasn't running at all, but was rolling behind me in his wheelchair. Get some.

C (151:39)

Yeah, man. He. I started out being ahead of him, then by the end he was crushing me because I was getting so tired. But he was with me the whole time and it was incredible. Beast.

A (151:53)

My energy levels and vigor melted like butter in the heat. Going to the book here. How are you feeling, dear? Pam rubbed my head as my mom prepared my chili and. And Colin drove us out of Houston toward Dallas. You know how I said that I expected that, that the whole thing would be me trying to stave off the deterioration of my body in order to make it to the finish? Yeah, I think we may have reached that point. You think? The heat took it out of me. Look at these big pockets of fluid. I rotated my stumps around revealing almost golf ball sized pockets of fluid around the corners. That looks so painful. Pam and the inspected them pretty painful. I threw the legs on all of my shorts back over them. Is there anything we can do? Just more of what we've been doing, I guess. Doc Spartan Cream, biofreeze, extra rest. It's hard to avoid these blisters because no matter how well my sockets fit, there's always going to be just a little bit of movement up and down. The heat over the last two days, amplified the friction gave me these. I think the recovery practices we have maybe enough to sustain me, but I don't see my body healing much at this point. Point. How many do we have left? Eight by my count. We're almost there. So these pockets of fluid, is that just where like your body is settling out? Food in the bottom of your stumps?

C (153:08)

Yeah, I think it's probably a reaction, an inflammation reaction to the, the. Yeah, blisters would be on there. And then also I think it's probably just fluid being pushed down there because of all the chafing and the heat. And it's kind of like you know how if you're in the gym and you do a max set of pull ups and you bake the. You can barely do any more pull ups after that. But if you do five, you know, every minute on the minute, you could go for an hour probably doing that. So it was kind of like the same thing. I was trying to avoid getting past a certain threshold where my skin broke down enough that it started become. But. And those three back to back really human days just I couldn't do. There's nothing I could do. And I went past that threshold and once you're past that certain threshold, you can't go back. There's no going back. So I just had to try and maintain. Take my Tylenol, take my Advil Shammy.

A (154:00)

Cream and it doesn't really. Does it even matter how like slow you go?

C (154:05)

Not really because I mean is there.

A (154:08)

On a step regardless?

C (154:09)

Yeah, because it's every, I mean every step, you know, the, the leg is going to move slightly. So even if I'm taking, if I'm going slower, that's going to be more steps because I'm taking shorter steps. So yeah, I couldn't.

A (154:25)

There was no escape.

C (154:26)

More breaks. I could take more. I think I did take more and longer breaks for, in Oklahoma City for a couple of the marathons to see if I could get a little bit more rest. This guy, Scott Rigsby, who did an Ironman double below the knee amputee, he text me and said hey, you got to go to the, you got to go to the, the farm store and get this cream that, this antibiotic cream that they use for horses and put that on there because that's what something that he used. So I had this doctor go get me some horse cream. I was putting that on there. I was trying everything I could think of just to try and reduce that inflammation and just keep going.

A (155:06)

Gnarly, you say? When I put my legs on, the pressure applied to the blisters on my. On my stumps by my sockets caused me to wince in pain. When I started running, the pain doubled with every step, up and down with the movement of the sockets. Luckily, in Dallas, it cooled off a little bit, and then it was Oklahoma. Oklahoma City. After that one, Memphis, where you run in a freaking deluge of rain and lightning. You almost get struck by lightning.

C (155:35)

That's a huge storm, dude.

A (155:38)

That's awesome. Part of the book. After that, it's Nashville. And this. You're running across these wooden bridges in Nashville. My foot slipped to the left as if I landed on black ice. All 6, 160 pounds of my body plummeted like a ton of bricks, gliding so hard with the bridge that I bounced. I ended up laying partially back, resting on my elbows. The dozens of ROTC cadets and other supporters behind me collided into each other like an accordion, avoiding a Get. Dog pile. Are you okay, sir? Young man said, reaching down to grab my arm. Yeah. I strained to sit up, my hands and forearms covered in mud. I think so. I rubbed my hands together in an unsuccessful attempt to remove the mud. Can we help you? Can we help you up? Another cadet asked as he joined his friend on my other side. That really works. Thanks. But that rarely works. I rolled to my left into the front leaning rest position to get up. So the reason I'm bringing that up is because you kind of hurt your back.

C (156:36)

Yeah. I didn't know it at that time, but the next morning when I woke up in Atlanta, it felt like somebody. I'm sure. I don't know if you've ever done it before, where you just tweak something and it's fine. But then once you sleep and you wake up, it's just.

A (156:48)

Yeah. Sometimes just like when you cool down.

C (156:50)

Yeah.

A (156:50)

As soon as you cool down, especially your back.

C (156:53)

Yeah. Things just tighten up. Yeah.

A (156:54)

That's why you hurt your back. Jiu jitsu, you know, get on the mat, loosens it up, but when you stop, you're jacked. And that's what happens to you. You kind of like, you wake up, your back's killing you. You say, yeah, it's bad. Trying to arch my back in some way to relieve the pain without finding a comfortable position. Slowly and gently rolled to my left and pressed myself through the stabbing sensation to a seated position. The pain abated somewhat as I let my torso slump, supporting you with my arms. That feels better. Feels. Yeah.

C (157:25)

Yeah, it really hurt.

A (157:27)

And this goes back to, you know, one of the things that Pam was worried about was doing permanent damage to yourself. And so we'll go here. The terrorist in your mind shows up. You do realize that this is what Pan was Pam was talking about, right? What? A year and a half ago, when you told her about this idea, she said you didn't want to do any permanent. She didn't want you to do any permanent damage to yourself. Permanent damage? You're thinking about running 104 miles with a messed up back when you can barely scoot around on the bed, let alone walk or run. Nothing's going to do permanent damage Better than that. You got to think long term. Don't you want to play with your kids in five years? I took a deep breath and winced in pain. I've beaten you. Finally. Actually, you've defeated yourself. All I did was make the bridge wet. You are that one, Eric. You're the one that arrogantly tried to run across it, even though you knew you should. Now you might actually be right this time. I reached through my. I reached through the pain for my liners laying over top of my running leg sockets. I am he, he replied as I gooped on my chamois cream. But I've got to take it one step at a time and go. At least find out either way. So you're going to. What do you got, four more left at this point? One hundred and four.

C (158:47)

Atlanta, Charlotte, Baltimore, D.C. yeah, about 104 more miles. 200,000 steps. I still had to do how many more? 200,000. What is it, 50,000? 50,000 per marathon? Yeah. So 200,000 steps.

A (159:04)

Charlotte, Baltimore and D.C. and you're pushing. You're overcoming it. I'm gonna fast forward to kind of like the finishing of the last marathon. And this is in D.C. we passed the Korean War Memorial, and I felt a little more capable of enduring the pain in my legs and back as I remembered them. Next, we ran by Ash woods, the unofficial World War I memorial, followed appropriately by the pillars and fountains of the World War II memorial. The pain I was feeling was nothing compared to what those brave men and women endured, so I gritted my teeth harder and kept running. On my other side was the Washington Monument, representing to me the sacrifices our first soldiers who gave everything to create our country. We turned left and although we were barred from running by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial because of the visit from the Vice President, I knew they were there running with me in spirit. They had endured war, then came home to hate and scorn, but their experiences and sacrifices they made ensured that no veteran will ever face those feelings again. So I ran harder. I turned left again at the bottom of the reflecting pool and we ran back past our base of operations where those that were not running cheered, rang cowbells and and clapped as we passed. I kept to my running schedule, but throughout the day was forced to take longer breaks because of the sheer number of interviews I was doing. Every break I had at least four microphones hooked up to my shirt. Besides the interviews, I received visits from people throughout my life who had all played a part in making me who I was. My grandmother, other family members, friends, my physical therapists, my nurse at Bethesda, Caitlin, and people who had joined me in previous cities who had flown to D.C. to be a part of the last day. While each conversation was different, the general message from each was how happy they were to see me not only dealing with my injuries, but doing things they never thought possible. Throughout the day the pain in my back and legs increased, but with every loop I ran by six memorials that reminded me why the pain didn't matter. After five hours of running and breaks, I plopped down into my chair and almost immediately began shivering before I removed my running legs and dawn placed a hot water bottle in my lap and wrapped a warm blanket around me. After the interviews and well wishers had their time, I had a moment to myself. The blisters on my stumps throbbed with every heartbeat. The pain in my back throbbed with them. I shall shivered in my wet clothes despite the blanket and hot water bottle. You can't do it. The terrorist said. I smirked. You know what? I've been looking at you all wrong.

B (161:57)

What?

A (161:58)

I've been treating you like my enemy this whole time when really you're my friend. I'm not your friend. He said in disgust. Oh, but you are. Every time you've tried to dissuade me, what you've really been doing has been calling my attention to my weaknesses and warning me of dangers. You've been highlighting the new responsibilities I'm about to assume and I've and as I've answered your doubts, I've made myself ready and more prepared for the upcoming challenges. No. He said weakly. This whole time you've been helping me after all. I smiled to myself without waiting for his reply. I put my legs on and stood up. Boom.

C (162:41)

There we go, the ultimate defeat.

A (162:44)

Yes.

C (162:46)

Turn all that energy into your advantage.

A (162:49)

Freaking outstanding, man. The final mile, Pam by my side, dozens of people following us. I began jogging around the reflecting pool. The people running behind me shouted encouragement as I rounded the path and began the last stretch. I jogged down that stretch and went what felt like slow motion as I saw smiling, familiar faces on either side. Dad and Karen, Mom, Gran, Caitlyn, Etain, Adele, the Cone family, Hopkins and more. At the end of the line, I saw red tape being held on one side by a Naval Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps cadet and on the other by Ryan Cohen's son, Bryce. With the crowd cheering, I jogged across the finish line and it snapped against my stomach. I gently bounced to a stop and turned around. Pam ran into my arms and I hugged her tight and then gave her a kiss. You did it, she said with tears of joy. We did it, I said to her as I raised my fist in the air as the crowd cheered, ABC News comes up to interview you. How do you feel? I feel thankful. Thankful to live in a country where there are millions of people willing to fight and sacrifice for their country. Thankful to live in a country where there are so many people that appreciate that sacrifice and thankful to live in a country that is worth that sacrifice. Got it done.

C (164:10)

Got it done. I just. You know what I just realized?

A (164:12)

What?

C (164:13)

8Th anniversary today of when I finished, because I finished on November 11, 2017.

A (164:17)

Dang, dude.

C (164:18)

Eighth anniversary.

A (164:19)

Freaking outstanding.

C (164:20)

Put that together till just now.

A (164:26)

How did. How was the recovery from this whole thing? How beat down were you at the end of this?

C (164:31)

Pretty brutal. I had the back injury. I didn't get to rest right away because I got asked to go up to do a couple interviews in New York, Fox and Friends and the Megyn Kelly Show. I could barely walk. Dude, it was hard. I was definitely limping for a good. My back hurt every time I took a step for a good two, three months, but it slowly got better. I didn't go to a doctor or anything, but it was just slowly getting better. It probably took a couple weeks for my before the fluid and my stumps went away completely. I noticed that it didn't. If you look at a picture of me in the beginning and at the end, I look kind of the same. But then a week later, after all the inflammation finally went down, I looked gaunt even though I was eating. I mean, I talk about my. My meal. Pork, two bags of pork rinds, the innards of a giant bowl, the innards of a lasagna, eggs Bacon. I was eating as many calories as I could eat. Bananas, sweet potato chips, that kind of thing. But even with all that food, yeah, I lost a ton of weight. But the recovery, fortunately, I just had. I was able to just rest. You know, I didn't. I didn't. Didn't have too much that I needed to do afterwards. I didn't have a job yet or anything. I wasn't. Didn't have a. Didn't have any kids yet or anything like that. And me and Pam were just living on our own in Vienna, Virginia at the time. And so, yeah, I was able to devote a lot of time to rest. So, yeah, the recovery was definitely. It took a long time, but given that I didn't have too. Too much to do, it wasn't. It wasn't bad. Felt kind of nice to be able to just lay down for a while.

A (166:16)

Or just to go to bed at night knowing that you didn't have to wake up and run 26.2 miles the next day for the first time in 31 days.

C (166:21)

That's a good point, too. And there would be certain times during the run where I would. I would cross the date line, or not the date line, but the time zone. And would it give me an extra hour instead of just going to bed? I would take that extra hour. And it was just. I just wanted to experience one more hour of not having to run a marathon. So I would stay up the extra hour. Even though I knew I should probably just go to sleep, I just wanted to be awake and not be running. So, yeah, it was extremely. It was. It was a great relief to be. Yeah. To wake up in the morning and go, I don't have to run today. I can just do whatever I want.

A (167:04)

Well, you did it. And speaking of you did it, I want to close out my reading of this book with this right here. This is. This is how I'm going to close it. Fast forward a little bit, because you and Pam were not just hanging around. There was other things that were happening. I rubbed pans Pam's head as I brought my face down over the back of the couch to get a look at my son. I kissed Pam's exhausted lips. You did it. He's beautiful. She said. You both are. So the baby. That's part of the epilogue of the.

C (167:38)

Book that you guys had describing the Harry being born.

A (167:42)

And you guys did the home.

C (167:44)

Home birth.

A (167:45)

Home birth, dude.

C (167:46)

I was a little bit scared at first.

A (167:47)

I'm a lot of bit scared.

C (167:48)

Pam was. She was convinced she'd be able to do it.

A (167:53)

She get that idea in her head.

C (167:55)

The home birth man. I can't remember exactly how the genesis of it. I think she just kind of looked into what happened. What tends to happen at a lot of hospital births where they're, you know, using painkillers and she didn't want, she didn't want that. And she. There's just a lot of stuff they do at hospital births that she didn't want to have any. A part of, like the, you know, the hepatitis B shot they try and give babies. They put the vitamin K in their eyes. There's just a lot of stuff.

A (168:26)

Vitamin K in their eyes.

C (168:28)

They put some kind of cream. I think it's vitamin echo.

A (168:31)

Seems to be knowledgeable in this area.

C (168:33)

It's because they're coming through the birth canal and there's a chance that they could get bacteria from the birth canal in their eyes. So once they get through there, they, they put like this antibiotic cream or they put some sort of cream on their eyes.

A (168:45)

Okay.

C (168:46)

And also she wanted to do an all natural birth. She didn't want to have any kind of painkillers, no gas in there or anything like that. And the unfortunate, unfortunate reality of hospital births is that, you know, doctors and nurses in the hospital do tend to put a lot of pressure on mothers that are giving birth to give up on their, their predetermined birth plan and just do the C section because they have other patients they want to get to. They just want to get through it real fast so they can do the.

A (169:15)

Things like a dang McDonald's.

C (169:17)

Yeah, basically. So she wanted to avoid all that. And I was a little bit scared because I was, I was thinking what happens if there's some sort of emergency, some sort of hemorrhage or whatever. But, you know, we talked to the, the midwives that were experts in that and they, you know, sewaged my, my fears and we went ahead and did it. And after the fact, I went. I would not want to have my kids come into the world in any other way. It was, it was amazing. And Harry was born on the couch and Pepper was born on the same couch. And our next baby, when, whenever they come, will probably also be born on the couch.

A (169:54)

Freaking outstanding.

C (169:56)

But I mean, yeah, and it's important for me to put that at the end there too, just to prove how, how I'm not tough at all. You know, my, my wife was. Gave birth to two human beings with no painkiller whatsoever. Just on absolute grit and determination. So. And that's the. You know, and. And to her credit as well, the. I don't even know how I would have done the month marathons without her logistically running the show because she's such an extremely intelligent person and capable person, she could have figured out any problem. I mean, there's a story in there.

A (170:34)

Where.

C (170:36)

Colin, on day two, drives under an archway bridge and scrapes the side of the rv, and the owner's like, you got to bring it back. But she was able to find a. A RV mechanic to drive into New York City, patch it, you know, do all this stuff. While I was out there running, she was doing all that stuff and managing all these different things and driving the rv, too, by the way, while I was just. All I had to do was run. So, yeah, I could not have done the. The month marathons without her, my mom, Colin, and all the people that were supporting me. And, I mean, that little speech I gave at the end of my bike ride is true of all. Everything that we just talked about. I didn't do. Nothing that I did was by myself. Yeah, I was. I barely did anything compared to everything else that all the other people were doing. Okay, I did some stuff, but, you.

A (171:24)

Know, I was gonna say getting through on marathons, kind of a.

C (171:27)

Kind of a thing, but point being, I didn't do any of it by myself. And there are other people that played giant contributing roles and all that stuff.

A (171:36)

Yeah. Yeah. So that's. That's. Look, again, I covered kind of just the. The wave points, the top wave points of the book, man. The book is just freaking awesome. I'm super stoked that you wrote it. I think people are going to get so much out of it. You're. Now you're working at Echelon Front. You're a leadership instructor. You're working with all kinds of different companies. You're sharing the lessons that you learned on the battlefield, lessons you learned from life, the lessons that we. The principles that we teach at Echelon Front. How's that been going for you?

C (172:07)

The best thing ever. I pinch myself every time I get to do. I finished the event and I turned to JP Or I turned to Steve, whoever I'm with that day. I'm like, how lucky are we that we get to do this, dude? I get to go help people, teach them leadership, have a great time doing it, and I get to do it with my friends. I get to hang out with my friends and do the best job in the world. And, yeah, man, I mean, I just. Yeah, I pinch myself about How. How did I. Out of the thousand, there's probably thousands of people that will want to be an instructor at Echelon Front. How did I get to be the one. One of the ones that. That got given the opportunity and yeah, I just Extremely thankful to be able to do it. It's the best job ever and it allows me to continue to make a difference, make an impact in the world without having to run marathons every. Every day.

A (172:57)

So, yeah, no, it's so rewarding to be able to help people out teaching these principles that we know and help out their company, help out their family, help out themselves, like across the board. It's just such a rewarding job. Fun. We get to hang out with our friends while we do it. Make new friends.

C (173:14)

Yeah.

A (173:14)

Link up with people. Yeah. That's just. It's just the way. And then you. You have the farm too. Is that an accurate statement to call your homestead a farm?

C (173:24)

Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally, definitely.

A (173:25)

Because you're out there freaking working in the fields and stuff.

C (173:28)

I wouldn't say. I would say. To call me a farmer is a little bit of a over. Overvaluation of my contributions. I do. Pam is the farmer.

B (173:37)

Okay.

C (173:38)

She does vegetables on. On the farm. That's her primary thing. She's vegetables. We live in Middleburg, Virginia, so if you're close to that area, check us out. Gatheringsprings. Farm.com is the, the name.

A (173:49)

Do you guys sell stuff?

C (173:50)

Yeah, she goes to the farmer's market. She does this thing called a csa, which is basically a vegetable subscription.

A (173:55)

Okay.

C (173:56)

So people sign up and you get a weekly box essentially of vegetables that they're going. Yeah, whatever's growing that week, that's what you get. So eggs, carrots, all sorts of stuff. Broccoli. They grow literally 250.

A (174:10)

Oh, dang.

B (174:10)

Okay.

A (174:11)

We ain't playing around. That counts.

C (174:12)

They're not. They are in the game.

A (174:14)

Yeah.

C (174:14)

On the chickens that she also raises lamb and all sorts of stuff. Stuff like. And, and how big?

A (174:19)

How many acres?

C (174:20)

We have 13.

A (174:21)

Okay.

C (174:21)

She's got two acres about in vegetable development and then the.

A (174:27)

Dude, vegetable development.

C (174:28)

Vegetable.

A (174:30)

Next level. I didn't know we were. When you create new vegetables over here.

C (174:37)

Two acres of vegetables, whatever the proper term would be. And then the rest of the farm is. He rotates the chickens and the. And the animals on it. But she's. She's a farmer. And then every now and then I'll go out.

A (174:47)

Did she come from a farming background?

C (174:49)

No, man. I mean, she just recognized the importance of clean fuel. I'M not sure if you've heard of that, but clean fuel is kind of important. Clean fuel. When she was rowing and when she was trying to figure out what she wanted to do next, she figured she wanted to do that. She loves animals. She wanted to. And part of the reason that she did it too is that you really only knew know whether or not your, your food is clean. If you kind of know where it comes from. You either know the farmer or you farm it yourself. And she figured she wanted to do that. And also she was thinking long term about our kids. She wanted to have kids that grew up in that kind of healthy environment. And she basically self taught. She did a. Worked at a vegetable farm close by to us for a couple years and then learned a lot of it.

A (175:39)

Put in the work, huh?

C (175:40)

Yeah, she's really smart.

A (175:42)

Brits are supposed to be good at gardening too.

C (175:44)

Yeah, everybody has a garden.

A (175:46)

Y. Yeah. Now this does not apply to my wife. Cuz my wife, like when we first got a house, she would plant stuff and it would just die. It would die wretched deaths. Do you know what a Mexican fan palm is? It's what you see all around San Diego.

C (176:04)

Right, Right.

A (176:05)

And. And they are such robust like trees and as a matter of fact, like my. So my wife, we got like two Mexican fan palms for our backyard.

C (176:16)

Yeah.

A (176:17)

And within like a month they were dead. Just dead. And a little while later, we're driving down Pacific highway here.

C (176:25)

Yeah.

A (176:26)

And there is a road. We're on a road. And you know the little concrete walls, like the Jersey barriers. Right in between the road and the Jersey barrier. In a concrete area, there is a freaking Mexican fan palm that is like living and thriving. And I'm like, babe, how did you murder these poor Mexican van palms? These things that need nothing, they grow in concrete. So ever since that she's backed off. We, we. She just got a raised bed.

C (177:01)

Okay.

A (177:02)

Yeah, bro. And she, this guy helped her, this gardener helped her like put these herbs in it, right. So we can have fresh herbs, bro. These things lasted a week. They were just brown and dead.

C (177:13)

She does not water them or what's.

A (177:15)

I don't know, man. I think she just, she. I think she might overthink it or something. She's. But she's doing better now. She's doing better now, but I don't know. I think she's very, very like disciplined, instruction follower.

C (177:26)

Right?

A (177:26)

So when you tell her like this is how much you water it, she's just like, okay.

C (177:30)

Yeah, yeah.

A (177:31)

And I, you know, and I Think sometimes you got to use a little bit of observation and make some adjustments.

C (177:37)

Yeah.

A (177:37)

And be like, it seems like there's water piled up around the area or whatever. Like, maybe this isn't.

C (177:43)

Maybe they need water.

A (177:46)

So, yeah, God bless her. She's a. She's a trooper. But here.

C (177:49)

She makes a really good chicken, though.

A (177:51)

She makes really good chicken. That's again, thanks to this podcast. But because I said something about. Yeah, I'm sure she's going to be. Get a bunch of gardening stuff. Yeah. Because for however many years we were probably around 20 years, I was eating.

C (178:02)

I was.

A (178:03)

I was. I was eating freaking chicken that didn't have enough water to feed a Mexican fan palm. It was rough. But, you know, what are you going to say? You say thank you. You know, like, thanks. Thank you for making this for me. Can you pass me some water? I'm just thirsty.

C (178:21)

And the ketchup.

A (178:21)

Yeah, and some ketchup and some mayonnaise and some mustard was barbecue sauce. But then people sent her all kinds of stuff and instruction, and now she's like, the best. Her chicken is the best. Prime rib is the best. She's really an amazing cook now. And she, you know, again, England's not exactly known for their. Their. Their delicacies, right?

C (178:43)

Not generally.

A (178:44)

Not generally, bro. Like, we love England 100% echo, Charles. But we're not maybe 100% down with the grub.

C (178:53)

Pam's a really good. Do you like that black pudding?

A (178:55)

No.

C (178:55)

You never. You don't like black pudding? No, dude, I love black pudding.

A (178:59)

Do you know what black pudding is? No. It's basically blood, right?

C (179:01)

It's pig. It's pig blood. And they mix oats in it and they put it in, like, a casing. It's delicious.

A (179:07)

Yeah, there you go. You can have the black. And then there's another one that's called, like, gray pudding or something.

C (179:12)

White pudding. White pudding is brain.

A (179:13)

It's brain. Oh, it's pig brain or something.

C (179:16)

White pudding.

A (179:17)

Yeah. So there you go.

C (179:19)

But, yeah, we'll get. We'll get Helen hooked up with Pam.

A (179:21)

On what? Keeping things alive in the garden.

C (179:23)

Gardening. Yeah, I'm sure that. Because Pam probably doesn't want, you know, the reputation of England.

A (179:30)

Yeah, true, True gardens. I just feel like if plants have souls, then my wife's going to hell. She'd be murdered by the poster. Well, she tries so hard, dude. God bless her. You know, she'll be like. She'll be like, I don't know what happened.

C (179:46)

I don't know.

A (179:46)

And I'll be like, I don't know, babe, but that thing is dead.

C (179:51)

Maybe get her a little greenhouse. Maybe she needs a greenhouse.

A (179:53)

Yeah, I don't know. We got to figure something.

C (179:55)

Automatic Waterer.

A (179:56)

What you got any physical challenges for yourself in the future or you think you're pretty good to go?

C (180:04)

Not. Nothing planned right now, but you.

A (180:07)

But, you know, you post all the time about your workouts. You're getting after it. Yeah, that's just part of. Part of life.

C (180:11)

I would. This is the seed that's been planted now, but I don't know when this. When or if this will happen. I don't like to commit to things like this without having a realistic picture of what I'd be able to do to train for it. I do think it would be cool for me to set the official, you know, world record for something like longest distance run by a double above the amputee in 24 hours or something like that, or fastest to run a certain big distance. Because I think it's important to set a standard. That's one of the things that I had. I had the standard. I had the standard that Dan Canasson set for me when I was in therapy. I had a certain standard that I was trying to reach in the Paralympics and all these different arenas. So I think it'd be cool to have a standard like that and that. That somebody that gets wounded in the future because, you know, the unfortunate reality is I doubt Iraq and Afghanistan are going to be the last wars that we're involved in. And because of that, there's going to be more people that get wounded, and there's people that are getting wounded right now and probably going on Google and trying to find a, you know, a pathway for them, trying to find some hope. And so I think it'd be cool to set some sort of a standard like that where people can go and be like, I want to try and achieve that. And. And in pursuit of that, they really push themselves and accomplish a lot of great stuff. So I think it'd be cool to set some sort of official record like that.

A (181:38)

Yeah.

C (181:38)

But I don't know what that's going to look like. We're still in. In baby phase or baby mode. Hopefully I have one, maybe two more kids, and then after they grow up a little bit, maybe I'll be able to start training, but I'm not getting any younger. I'm 40 now, so.

A (181:51)

And you got your kid, you got your son doing jiu jitsu, at least.

C (181:54)

Harry and I go to jiu Jitsu most Saturdays.

A (181:58)

Nice.

C (181:58)

We are in the phase of. Half the time, he doesn't really want to go, and so I'm not forcing him.

A (182:04)

How old is he?

C (182:05)

He's. He's almost 6. He's gonna be 6 in February, but it's a good dream.

A (182:10)

So this is my dream here.

C (182:11)

Go. No, we go. We just have fun. We just roll around and. Yeah, sometimes he doesn't want to go, and. But usually we. We go and we have some fun.

A (182:20)

Nice.

C (182:21)

I usually have to. I. I don't push him much, but he goes, I don't really want to go today. I'm like, oh, yeah, we should go. Yeah, it'll be fun.

A (182:28)

That's perfect.

C (182:28)

And then usually he. Usually he's like, all right. And then I. I prepare a drink, this hibiscus tea. It's red. And so I'm like, dude, we're gonna go. We're gonna fill our water bottle with hibiscus tea, and we're gonna tell everybody that it's dragon blood. He's like, oh, yeah, it's gonna be awesome. And he's like, dad, we're drinking dragon blood over here. Yeah. And so that's. I try and think of all these little ways to make it more fun. You know what I mean? Just so that he goes and has fun. But, yeah, that's awesome. He's into it.

A (183:01)

Does that get us up to speed, man? Is that what we're doing?

C (183:04)

That is up to speed. Yeah. My. My baby daughter's about to be too nice. She is an animal.

A (183:10)

Really.

C (183:11)

She's. Yeah. She is simultaneously cute and sometimes infuriating. This morning, when I was. She woke up at around, you know, 4:30, and she was screaming her head off, which is kind of a little bit annoying. I was already up because I had to get ready to go to the airport and everything, but she was screaming her head off, so I brought in a little bottle of milk. So she went from screaming her head off, she drank the milk, and then she gave it back to me and went, thank you, Daddy.

A (183:40)

Yeah.

C (183:41)

And I was like, just like, oh. Buckled my knees with the. The cuteness. The knees. I don't have this buckle.

A (183:50)

Even the mechanical knees buckled.

C (183:52)

Yeah.

A (183:53)

Kind of cuteness.

C (183:54)

But. Yeah. So. Yeah. And then that would be that. That catches us up to speed. Hopefully we'll have another baby next year. Nothing, nothing. Nothing going right now, but hopefully another baby in the near future.

A (184:05)

We're working on it.

C (184:06)

Yeah.

A (184:07)

That's what. I'm here working. Awesome. Well, hey, I want to. I want to do you want to read this one last thing from the book? This is. This is the author's note from the book. And I thought, this is. Just have to read it. Here we go. Having seen the COVID of this book, you can likely surmise what it means when I say I put my legs on. It literally means exactly that. Every day I wake up in my bed and I do that with stumps for legs. Unadorned are of limited use to me. If I want to do anything that day besides lay there in bed, I have to turn those stumps into effective limbs. I have to put my legs on. That is the first thing I do every single day of my life. I work, wake up and put my legs on. That is a prerequisite for me being able to be the man that I need to be a father, a husband, a son, a brother, a friend. It is what I must do first in order to do absolutely anything useful. But it's not enough to do it just once. Different tasks require different legs. So throughout the day, I have to put on different legs, depending on what I need to do. Over and over, I have to put my legs on to get the job done. And while you may not have prosthetic limbs, you kind of do. Throughout your life, you will be called to take action by your family, by your friends, by your community, by your country, by yourself. And when you get that call, you may be tired. It may not be fair, you may not want to do it. But the undeniable fact of life is that almost none of the calls to action that you receive will come when the timing and conditions are perfect for you. So what do you do when you're tired? Put your legs on. When it's not fair, Put your legs on. When it's undeserved, Put your legs on. When you just don't want to do it, put your legs on. When you receive that call, put your legs on and lead. Boom. That's what we're doing.

C (186:17)

Nothing additional to add?

A (186:19)

Yeah, nothing. Nothing. Nothing else to add. Mic drop.

C (186:22)

Hey, Leg drop.

A (186:23)

Add this. Order the. Order the book. Get the book. Order it now. If you're looking For Rob Jones, robjonesjourney.com Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, RobJones Journey. If you want Rob to come and talk to your company, go to ashlonfront.com he will come and inspire and educate you and your team about leadership and perseverance and just being Rob Jones. And yeah, it's a good, good spot. Now let me ask you this, Rob. If you were to go Back in time and you would do your 31 marathons for 31 days or you were to bike across the country again. If you would have had Jocko fuel at that time, do you think you would have been 20% better, 30% better, 50% better, 100% better? What do you think?

C (187:09)

If Jocko fuel existed back in the day, I'd still be running marathon.

A (187:13)

It'd be 60 marathons.

C (187:14)

I wouldn't have been marathons.

A (187:16)

No factor. That's what we're doing. Jocko fuel. Check out jockofuel.com. we got protein, we got energy, we got hydration, we got supplementary activities. We get everything that you need. You can buy it at Walmart, you can buy it at Wegmans, you can buy it at Hy Vee Heb, all kinds of places across the country. Bunch of gyms. We got Jocko fuel in there. So check it out. Jockofuel.com for that fuel for your journey, whatever journey you're on, you need some good clean fuel. Also. Origin usa we're making geese for Jiu Jitsu. We are making rash guards for Jitsu. Making jeans, we're making in America, man. 100American made. American made cotton, American made buttons. You know what I'm saying? Echo, Charles.

B (188:07)

I know what you're saying.

A (188:07)

100%.

B (188:08)

Thank you for reminding.

A (188:09)

That's what we're doing. OriginUSA.com we got everything that you need. 100% made in America. Every. Boots, T shirts, hoodies, wallets, belts, belts, hats, beanie. Just everything you need. You don't need to buy something that's. That's just infiltrated by communism. You don't need to do that. You can get something that's infiltrated with freedom. Go to originusa.com and get your clothing. And that's what I got.

B (188:39)

You've heard of fast fashion?

A (188:40)

Yeah. So I think it was where they make stuff and throw it away.

B (188:42)

It's like the opposite of origin. Yeah, it's like lower quality stuff. Not meant for, you know, longevity, you know, depth, all that stuff. Anyway, just kind of reminded.

A (188:51)

Yeah, we're not doing that.

B (188:52)

No. Speaking of shirts though, we got some shirts for you on Jocko store. Rob Jones, the averted Jocko store before.

C (188:58)

Ah, is that a store where you get Jocko related items?

B (189:02)

Related items? Yeah, sure. Good way to put it. We'll say, you know, when you're going to represent discipline equals freedom, you know, on the path, that's where you can get it. The idea of good, which I like, actually. Put your legs on, that might have some.

A (189:15)

Might have some legs.

C (189:16)

Well, they're related.

A (189:16)

Look at this guy.

B (189:18)

Either way, you did contact me about, you know.

C (189:20)

Yeah. I was going to ask you. I wanted a T shirt to put your legs on T shirts. That's why I asked you a year ago.

B (189:25)

That was a year ago. You know, but we're here. Respond eventually, you know, better late than you just take.

C (189:30)

You're just contemplating.

A (189:32)

That's top. That's top of the execution checklist for Echo Charles. Like one year, he's like, you know, he's contemplating, you know.

C (189:41)

I typed a bunch of responses back but deleted them. Just want to make sure it was perfect.

B (189:45)

Gotta be correct. Yeah.

A (189:46)

Correct.

B (189:46)

Yeah. Nonetheless. Got some.

A (189:48)

He's an artist, bro. You know that, right? Yeah, like, hey, look, it's not as simple as making a T shirt that says put your legs on. Yeah, you gotta. You gotta contemplate. Yeah.

B (189:57)

If I say yes, I gotta mean.

C (189:59)

Yeah, you can. Yeah, yeah.

B (190:00)

Not like, can we do.

A (190:01)

Well, can we make a put your legs on shirt?

B (190:03)

Yeah.

A (190:03)

Come on, dude.

B (190:03)

The answer is yes.

C (190:04)

That's like me committing to doing a month of marathons. But he commits. He commits.

A (190:09)

He's gonna go hard, real hard to make a shirt.

B (190:13)

Nonetheless.

A (190:14)

Imagine that freaking Adobe drawer.

B (190:19)

Okay, thank you, Jocko, for that input. Anyway, me and Rob Jones are talking about shirts.

C (190:25)

Yeah.

B (190:25)

You know, this idea of good anywhere you could rep as far as representing on the path is where you get the stuff.

C (190:30)

Yeah.

B (190:30)

Got some hoodies on there. Stuff. Shirt locker. You know, the shirt lockers.

C (190:34)

Oh, yeah, that's a subscription.

B (190:36)

Subscription scenario. New shirt every month.

C (190:40)

Maybe put your legs on will be one of the subscription shirts. I don't know, know.

A (190:43)

Should it be just a little collab? Could be a collab.

C (190:46)

Yeah.

B (190:46)

There's a lot of stuff you can do 100%. But yeah, some good stuff on there if you want to. If you're any interested in the straight locker, you go to Jocko store dot com, click on the top, you can check out all the shirt locker stuff, see what you need, the vibe, if you will. People like to check that out and, you know, they seem to like it. Anyway, it's all on jockostore.com, so. Yeah, check it out.

A (191:02)

Check. Also, we got some books. We got a book called put your legs on written by Rob Jones. A awesome book. Thanks for writing it. It's available. When you hear this podcast, it'll be available. You can go to Amazon and get it. It's Jocko Publishing. It's an honor to be able to publish this Book, get this word out to people. It's just outstanding. So put your legs on by Rob Jones. Also check out Dave Burke's book. You mentioned it a couple times today. Need to lead.

C (191:28)

Fantastic book.

A (191:29)

And then I've written a couple books too. Probably about 12 of them. And you can check those out. Some of them are for kids, some of them are for your warrior kids or taking kids that might not be too warrior minded. And you can turn them into warriors. Not warriors that are gonna be crazy warriors that are gonna be disciplined, they're gonna be hard working. That's what we're doing. You can get a bunch of those books as well. Also, we have Echelon Front. We talked about a little bit today. We go into companies that have problems. What causes these problems? We can tell you.

B (192:02)

Well, what.

A (192:02)

You don't even know what the company is. How can you tell me what the problem is? I can tell you what the problem is because I know what the problem is. The problem is a leadership problem. Whether it's the processes that are in place, whether it's the people, whether it's the, the PPE not being worn or the, the bottom line not being hit, all those problems are leadership problems. And at Echelon Front, we solve those problems through leadership. So if you want support inside your organization from a leadership perspective, go to echelonfront.com Rob Jones will show up at your company and he will square you away, help you find what you're looking for. Leadership, the skills of leadership. Also, if you want to work on your skills of leadership, you can go to extremeownership.com and we have an online training academy. There's online courses that you can take. They're interactive courses. They have tests. And then on Mondays we do like a live call. I'm on it. Rob's on it. Leif's on it. Sean's on it. JP's on it. Jamie's on like we, we will have instructors on there. We'll teach a little bit and we'll answer questions straight up. Got a question about something going on in your world? Family business team? We got answers. Go to Extreme Ownership. Go to extreme ownership.com and learn the skills of leadership. That's what we're doing. And then if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to americasmightywarriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org Micah Fink up there in the mountains of Montana helping our service members find their soul. And then Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood.org check that one out. Helping SEALs transition into the civilian sector. And finally, Ramadi reunion20.com if you served with the 11 AD out there in Ramadi in 2006, 2007, they're having a reunion. General McFarland is running the show just like he did in Ratty. Go to Ramadi reunion20.com if you serve there. We really want to see you. A bunch of us are going. If you want to connect with Rob Jones once again on the interwebs, robjonesjourney.com Instagram, Twitter X and Facebook Objones Journey. And also you can find him at Echelon Front for us. You can check out jocko.com and then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink. Echoes Echo Charles Just be careful because there is an algorithm that wants to destroy your life and it will if you let it. And that's what we got. Echo Charles, did you have any questions from this evening?

C (194:40)

Oh, yeah.

B (194:41)

You ever consider revisiting your stand up comedy career?

C (194:45)

From time to time. I do. Do. I do sometimes think, oh, man. About what would have been. The good thing is though, when I go out and I teach a leadership workshop or do a keynote, guess what you're gonna do? You're gonna be laughing when you, when you hire, when you bring me in, you're gonna have fun, you're gonna laugh, you're gonna cry, laugh, you're gonna cry. You're gonna be doing all sorts of stuff. So I am able. Scratch that, that itch, that being funny itch.

A (195:12)

Were you the class clown in high school or in school?

C (195:16)

Yeah, I was always trying. Yeah, I was always trying.

A (195:18)

What about in the Marine Corps? What about in your platoon?

C (195:20)

In the Marine Corps, definitely.

A (195:21)

All day.

C (195:22)

Yeah. Just I cannot stop myself.

A (195:24)

It's so good to have a dude like, that's funny as hell.

B (195:26)

Yeah.

A (195:27)

Like, it's so good. It's just, it just makes everything so much better.

C (195:32)

Yeah. I mean, we'd be in the back of a seven ton, just riding for hours and hours and hours. And one of the things I would do with my team is I would give them impressions that they had to do. So I just go, you would task them? I would task them. I suppose we'd be in the back of the thing and I'd be like, everybody's miserable. I'd be like, garrison, do a, do a. An impression of Chris Tucker. And he's like this big guy and there's nothing like Chris Tucker. So we have to do the. Yeah. So I just do try and do funny stuff like that, make jokes.

A (196:00)

But do you remember when you did your five minutes? Do you remember your bits?

C (196:07)

If I sat down and thought about them, I would think about. Yeah, I could probably remember them. I remember. I remember. I would use that. My standard opener would be I'd get up and I would say, hey, everybody, my name is Rob Jones. I figure I should probably address what you've already noticed about me already. Yes, I am extremely handsome. It's just a good way to get the first laugh. I would do it. I would do a joke about, you know, being so inspiring that I inspired a lady to death at the, the marathon that. The Marine Corps marathon. She passed me and said, I inspired her for the rest of her life. And then two miles later I passed her back and she was getting loaded into the back of an ambulance. So I inspired her to death. That's dark. I gotta be careful.

B (196:53)

Yeah.

C (196:54)

Tell a little story about. How, how I was in the a convenience store one time. There was this guy in with his arm and a cast in front of me and I caught him. I heard him say that it sucks having your arm in a cast. And I would. And I went, yeah, sucks to be you, brah. And he went, Turned around and went, well, I went, yeah, that's right. And then I turned around to high five the guy behind me. And there was a quadruple amputee standing right behind me.

A (197:23)

Yeah.

C (197:24)

And he's like, sucks to be you.

A (197:26)

Yeah.

C (197:26)

And then behind him there was just a head in a jar. So it's like silly like that too. What else? Yeah, there's a bunch. I have a. I have a 10 minute set that I did. I'll send it to you guys. But it's pretty funny. Maybe I'll post it on Instagram or something so people.

A (197:42)

Yeah, man.

C (197:43)

See it. But yeah. So to answer your question, handsome and funny.

B (197:46)

Sometimes.

C (197:46)

Yeah, handsome. I wouldn't. Funny. I don't know if I would go as far as handsome.

B (197:52)

It's debatable.

C (197:53)

Say.

B (197:54)

Debatable for sure. Right on. Yeah, it seems, it seems kind of like it might be helpful just over. I mean, one can kind of feed off the other right where you're. If you're on stage, whether it be giving keynotes or whatever works, whatever. And then, you know, you can catch like open mic nights or Whatever, you know, kind of seems like that would be like good practice, you know, one way.

C (198:12)

Oh yeah, totally, man. Being up on stage is a lot harder than being in, up in front of the audience at muster. It's a thousand people. But I'm not trying to be funny. It's like when you, when you're doing stand up comedy, you're offering yourself, exposing yourself. You're being, you're trying to do something funny and you're like, wasn't that funny? And there's a chance they're going to go, no, that was stupid.

B (198:34)

Yeah, it's like constant, constant, like gamble. I mean, in a matter of speaking, gambling, massive success or massive failure. Because it's not like, okay, my joke didn't land. And that's sort of it. Yeah, it kind of can be awkward after a while, you know, so like no one wants to be awkward. Even if you're not trying to be funny, you don't want to be awkward. So now you risk that at every turn. See what I'm saying? So I can see how that, and.

C (198:54)

You'Re, and you're, and you're just constantly trying something that you're not sure if it's going to work and then you fail. And there's actually, I mean there's a lot of like if you listen to Jerry Seinfeld talk about stand up comedy or Louis CK or some of the, or even Joe Rogan, like more well known comedians, you hear them talk about the art of stand up comedy. There's a lot of, there's a lot of tie ins that I find with leadership instruction too, or just the, the actual presentation of the information that we share. A good example would be, you know, Jerry Seinfeld. I remember one time he was talking about how he keeps his set, his, he keeps his, his set that he does when he goes out to do theaters to about an hour or hour and 15 minutes because up to that point they're with you, they love it. But if you go past a certain point on your stand up comedy set, it's like it's too much. They've laughed so much they start to, you start to lose them after a certain amount of time. And I notice it's the same thing for the combat leadership brief that we teach. If you go longer than about an hour, an hour and 15, you're going to be, start losing people. Even if the information is, is fantastic. It's the best thing they've ever heard. Eventually they're just, they have to pee. They're kind of Tired of hearing it. They're just like, when is this guy going to stop talking so I can take a break? So you, you have to. You. It's a lot of stuff like that.

A (200:09)

Yeah, I, I heard, I think it was Rogan talking about the timing piece.

C (200:13)

Yeah.

A (200:13)

And it, it applies to leadership instruction as well, where if you, if the person gets the punchline, if they figure out the punchline too early, that's not funny. And if you say the punchline but they still don't understand it, it's not funny. So they have to be just about to understand that. They have to be just about to see the punchline when you say it. Otherwise it's not funny.

C (200:38)

Yeah.

A (200:38)

And it's kind of the same thing when you're teaching leadership to make it impactful. You want them to just about to be like, to think what you're about to say, and then when you say it, it kind of like, oh, yeah, that's right. And it's good and it lands properly. And if you don't do that well, you're gonna have issues. And then the other funny thing I was thinking, you ever seen, you're talking about, like, how it can be awkward, but there's some comedians that are awkward. That's what, that's why they're funny.

B (201:04)

Right? Yeah, right. And there's a difference to big time, where it's like, funny awkward and yeah.

C (201:11)

This person is bombing.

B (201:12)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

C (201:13)

But, yeah, I mean, it's also about crap crafting, being very meticulous about how you craft what you're saying so that it gets. So it reaches a maximum funniness in comedy. But crafting the way that you present the information such that it creates maximum impact, like getting rid of unnecessary words coming at the. From the right angle and that kind of thing. Oh, here's an example of how I scratch the funny itch from a workshop I did with a. With a client was a lumber company. And I remember we were talking about kilns. Like, one of the problems they had was with their kilns. And in a workshop the previous day I mentioned, I asked them, like, how. How high do you guys turn up your kilns to dry lumber? Like 2,000 degrees. And they're like, no, 2,000 degrees. That's way too hot. It would burn the lumber. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm stupid. So then the next day, at the very end, we were trying to work through some problems and one guy, we were talking about strategic thinking. This one guy was brought up an issue with the kilns, like, they have to keep them running, but at the same time, they also have to maintain them. And all this whole thing I just went, have you tried turning your kilns up to 2000 degrees? I hear that's really good. But, yeah, and so it's just, you know, I cannot help myself but try and be funny. So, yeah, when. When you bring me in for a keynote or for a workshop, there's gonna be. You're gonna be having fun. That's one of the things I do like to make sure that happens, is that the people that are there with me are having a good time, because if they're bored out of their minds and they're not having a good time, they're not learning, they're not going to be impacted by it. That's my theory.

A (202:56)

Yep.

C (202:57)

And also making people laugh right off the bat, it's a great way to build the foundation of a relationship, because if you really think about it, like, if you're in a. In an elevator with somebody, there's a little bit of awkwardness. My natural instinct is to think of something funny to say to break through the tension. And then when you do that, they laugh. And now you're basically best friends until you reach your floor. And part of the reason for that is you kind of. You basically just this little mini. You kind of just work through a problem with that person. You both had felt the awkwardness, and then you both work together to solve the awkwardness by laughing together at a stupid joke. So it's a really great way to. To build a relationship with somebody really quickly, I think, is to. To make them laugh and make them smile.

A (203:44)

Yeah. Works Echo Charles. Any other questions?

C (203:48)

Does that answer your question?

B (203:49)

Yes, sir.

A (203:51)

We did it.

B (203:51)

Well, it's good to hang out with you today yet again, Rob Jones.

A (203:55)

Any closing thoughts, my brother?

C (203:57)

No, just gratitude. Like I said, half the people on the month of marathons knew about me because you guys let me come on the podcast as. As a nobody. And that's one of the things I admire about both of you guys is you have people like me that are just, you know, nobody that. But have a story. And obviously, the dedication in this book is to Team Rob. All the people that you talked about in the book that put me in the position or helped me get to a position where I could make an impact on people. And then lastly, with the book specifically, big shout out to John Bozak for meticulously working his butt off to get this book out. And then also to Jeremy Lydia who did some. The copy editing we sent him. You know, the. The draft he went through and fixed all my grammar mistakes, made some, you know, suggestions on, you know, alternate word choice, and really helped make it tight. So thanks to both those guys.

A (204:55)

Yeah. But you did write the book yourself. There's no ghost writer here.

C (204:58)

This is Rob Jones.

A (204:59)

All Rob.

C (205:00)

I wrote this book. I sat down, typed it out, planned it out, figured out what the story arc was going to be, figured out who my antagonist was going to be. You know, all the stuff that goes into write a book. I. I did that, and I'm very proud of that.

A (205:15)

Freaking awesome. Well, first of all, you are far from a nobody, you know, and having you on the first time was awesome for us. You know, just to be able to meet someone that's done what you've done and been through what you've been through, and to come out the other side with a freaking. Just such an unstoppable attitude, it's. It's just awesome. And it was an honor to have you on then. It's an honor to work with you now and have you back on here again and hear your perspective on things. And you are truly one of the most inspirational freaking human beings I've ever known in my life. And I've known a lot of very inspirational people, so.

C (205:48)

Second only to Travis Mills.

A (205:50)

Travis Mills is definitely a tough one to be. He's a freaking maniac. But, yeah, man, it's an honor to work with you. It's an honor to call you a friend. It's an honor to have you as a brother. And thanks, man. And while we're at it, thanks to all the universe, uniformed personnel out there in the world defending freedom with a. With a particular salute to our combat engineers. They build, they fight, and you know what they do? They clear minds and IEDs to keep their brother safe. And I know they did a lot of that work in front of me. And so thank you for clearing our paths. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, all other first responders, thank you for what you do here on the home front to keep us safe. And to everyone else out there, listen, life is not going to be easy. In fact, it is going to be hard. And as Rob Jones points out, it's not going to be fair, it's not going to be deserved, and the conditions are going to be far from perfect. But nonetheless, the call will come, the call for you to take action. And when that happens, you now know exactly what to do. Just like Rob Jones does every day. Put your legs on. That's all I've got for tonight. Until next time, this is Rob Jones and Echo and Jocko out.