Jocko Podcast #525: Why Action Beats Analyzing. The Soldier and The Statesman.

Date: January 28, 2026
Hosts: Jocko Willink & Echo Charles

Episode Overview

In this episode, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles continue discussing Soldiers and Soldiering by Field Marshal Archibald Wavell, focusing on the complex relationship between soldiers and statesmen and exploring timeless lessons on leadership, discipline, and the importance of action over endless analysis. Drawing from military history, personal anecdotes, and practical application, the episode explores how these ideas apply to war, business, relationships, and everyday life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Soldier and the Statesman: Clash & Synergy

• Main Conflict: Historically, soldiers and politicians distrust each other—politicians accuse soldiers of being narrow and rigid, while soldiers see political interference as an obstacle.
• Political Generals: Though seen negatively, many of Britain’s greatest military leaders (Cromwell, Marlborough, Wellington) were also politicians.
• Lincoln’s Example: Abraham Lincoln’s famous letter to General Hooker is examined as a model of clear and honest leadership communication (02:49–10:00).

“What I now ask of you is military success, and I will risk the dictatorship.”—Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Jocko (08:40)

• Lesson: Success in leadership often requires understanding both military and political perspectives, and effective communication up and down the chain.

Understanding Each Other's Difficulties: Soldier vs. Politician

• Mutual Impatience: Soldiers want swift action; politicians need to "prepare the ground" much like soldiers prepare for a river crossing—both require complex, often unseen work.
• Effective Leadership: Each side can learn from the other; politicians’ flexibility and soldiers’ discipline both have value (13:59–15:00).

“It’s a process and we don’t understand each other.”—Echo Charles (13:59)

Action Beats Analysis: On the Battlefield and in Life

• Textbook Limitations: In both battle and business, leaders can’t simply follow rules or manuals; initiative, judgment, and the fighting spirit matter most.
• Defeat & Mindset: “No battle was ever lost until the leader thought it so.” Leaders must remain determined but not blind—sometimes, acknowledging loss is necessary to adjust the strategy (15:30–18:22).

“No battle was ever lost until the leader thought it so. Isn’t that a good one?”—Jocko Willink (16:00)

• Decentralized Command: Success depends on empowering junior leaders and trusting their initiative—“give people the room to maneuver.” (18:22–20:22)

Military Genius: Nature vs. Nurture

• Origins of Genius: Good generals are “made rather than born”—though certain natural faculties (quick decision, boldness, toughness) are essential (22:00–25:32).
• Strategy vs. Tactics: Debate: Which is more important? Both agree that strategy must align with the capabilities and tactics available.
• Football Analogy: Illustrates that no strategy can succeed if it disregards practical realities and team strengths (27:28–30:08).

Energy, Willpower, and Communication

• Force of Will: The greatest leaders combine energy, will, and clear communication. However, unchecked willpower with poor strategy is dangerous (34:38–35:54).

“It sucks when someone’s got a strong force of will and they’re a shitty strategist or a shitty tactician.”—Jocko Willink (34:55)

• Persuasion & Overconfidence: The most persuasive aren't always right (“Dunning-Kruger effect” discussed)—beware overconfident leaders pushing bad ideas (35:54–37:20).

The Power of Initiative and Default Aggression

• Rommel’s Example: The German general’s default to rapid counterattack catches the Allies off-guard—showing bold action matters (40:27–44:41).
• Training Boldness: Default aggressive action is cultivated through training environments that penalize hesitation and reward assertiveness (45:33–48:50).

“Seven out of ten times, action beats inaction. That’s my statistical fact.”—Jocko Willink (47:29)

On Creating a Culture of Action vs. Shame

• Shame as a Motivator: Peer pressure and culture can reinforce action-taking; not taking action becomes implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) shameful (48:50–51:14).
• Examples from Jiu-Jitsu: Echo recounts how shame among peers discourages quitting due to fatigue or panic—this forms an analog to military and business cultures.

Unorthodox and Good Soldiers: Requirements

• Value of Irregulars: Admiration for unconventional soldiers—initiative, toughness, and risk-taking matter.
• Qualities of a Good Soldier: Endurance, skill at arms, discipline (best instilled by pride, not fear), and a “seasoning of devilry”—a rebellious, independent streak (54:23–66:00).

“The essential qualities of the good soldier are endurance, skill at arms, and the valor of discipline with some pungency of independence.”—Summary of Wavell, via Jocko (66:00)

• Importance of Morale and Comradeship: Group spirit, loyalty, and shared hardship form the backbone of good units and ease the transition to civilian life (73:00–77:22).

Principles of Command

• Leadership Presence: A commander should spend less time in headquarters and more time seeing the ground and connecting with troops—personal presence and direct observation are essential (78:00–80:38).
• On Reports: Two-thirds of reports in war are inaccurate—seek confirmation, and don’t base action on the first report.
• Aggression and Morale: Attack is both more effective and easier—the difference in morale between advance and retreat is massive. Even if outnumbered, aggressive action can turn the tide (80:38–84:00).

“Being on the attack is good morale…Being on the defense is bad morale.”—Jocko Willink (84:00)

Learning, Education, and the Hybrid Method

• Continuous Learning: Officers and leaders must study history, geography, and above all, communicate clearly and concisely (88:50–89:45).
• Hybrid Training Model: Both classroom/theory and field/practice are essential—learning is maximized by alternating between hands-on experience and explanation (93:43–97:48).
• Jiu Jitsu & Other Analogies: Like fighting, music, or trade crafts, mastery comes from both instruction and "live" practice, not one or the other alone.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Lincoln and Grant:

  “To a critic who alleged that Grant drank, Lincoln replied by asking him to ascertain the brand of whiskey so he could send a case to some of the other generals.” (10:35, Jocko retelling Lincoln anecdote)

• On Decentralized Command:

  “You got to give people the room to maneuver. That is decentralized command.” (19:41, Jocko)

• On Overconfidence:

  “They were so formidable that they would win arguments even when they were completely wrong.”—Jocko Willink (34:55)

• On Training for Action:

  “Opt for action and just slay.” (44:41, Jocko/Wavell)

• On Aggression:

  “Seven out of ten times, action beats inaction.”—Jocko Willink (47:29)

• On Toughness:

  “Valor and sufferance…The capacity to endure pain. That’s it, man.”—Jocko citing Wavell (55:02)

• On Communication:

  “There is one quality above all essential for a good commander: ability to express himself clearly, confidently and concisely in speech and on paper.”—Jocko citing Wavell (88:50–89:45)

• Morale and Shared Hardship:

  “That’s why we gotta get into a jiu-jitsu gym, start training with people, get some of that hardship…”—Jocko (75:30)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lincoln’s Letter to Hooker: 02:49–10:00
• Soldier/Politician Analogy: 13:59–15:00
• Battle Mindset—Defeat and Will: 15:30–18:22
• Decentralized Command: 18:22–20:22
• Strategy vs. Tactics (Football Analogy): 27:28–30:08
• Force of Will & Leadership Risks: 34:38–35:54
• Rommel and Action Taking: 40:27–44:41
• Training Action & Aggressiveness: 45:33–48:50
• Culture and Peer Shame: 48:50–51:14
• Unorthodox Soldiers & Devilry: 54:23–66:00
• Morale & Comradeship: 73:00–77:22
• Leadership Presence and Ground Truth: 78:00–80:38
• Attacking vs. Retreating—Morale Effects: 80:38–84:00
• Learning & Communication: 88:50–89:45
• Hybrid Learning/Field Training: 93:43–97:48

Episode Takeaways

• Action is almost always better than analysis paralysis.
• Human factors—morale, communication, and will—outweigh rigid adherence to rules or theory.
• Leadership requires both discipline and flexibility, as well as the willingness to empower others.
• A good training culture encourages initiative, sometimes through peer pressure or even shame.
• Never stop learning, and make sure to transfer both physical and moral strength through shared hardship and continuous practice.

“Getting stronger mentally, physically and morally. That’s what we’re doing.”—Jocko Willink (90:48)