B (6:32)

Yes, sir.

A (6:32)

Well, yeah, I bet so many things happened in college that were funny, cool, humorous and you forgot, bro.

B (6:41)

Yeah, fully. There was. I told you about this. I think my mother sent me a two page, you know, those yellow note pads or whatever.

A (6:54)

Legal pad.

B (6:54)

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Written in pencil. I wrote it and I barely remember the incident, but it was of how I like, for lack of better term, abandoned my younger brother down in the town by my. Yeah, Kenyatta. And he like after school, like, I guess we lost him. I think we ditched them. But you know, it's a small little town, clo town that's like small, so it's not like oh my gosh. But. And apparently it was like this thing. So anyway, and, and I'm reading it. She sent it to me recently, like within the last like three years. She sent it to me. Just. I don't know why, because. And then, yeah, I was reading it and I'm like, yeah, that's, that's with. It's an interesting little slice of a time. Long gone, by the way, but it really happened. That was a time and real events, you know.

A (7:42)

And how well did you remember those without seeing the paper?

B (7:46)

Oh, I would never have thought of it ever in my whole life. In fact, when I was reading it, little sparks of memories was coming back, like with when I was like, yeah, I feel like I remember this day, you know.

A (7:57)

Yeah.

B (7:57)

I don't remember writing it, but I, it, you know, it did bring back

A (8:01)

the actual memory, you know, the way the memories work. I don't know how they work, like technically via, you know, I'm not going to give you the physiology.

B (8:09)

Yeah.

A (8:10)

But if you don't make those connections. So here's an example for me, like I grew up on the east coast, right. When I go to my hometown, I haven't. I go to my Hometown Once every 10 years, let's say on average when I go there, there's a lot of things I don't remember. Like people will tell me stories about me that I don't remember. And part of it's because I don't reconnect those neurons every day.

B (8:33)

Yeah, yeah.

A (8:34)

So counter that. When. When I was in the Navy, I did 18 out of 20 years stationed in Coronado in Seal Team 1, Seal Team 7 and Seal Team 3 and trade it and all those buildings when I was at those buildings because they're in different locations now. Like Seal Team 1's in a different location. Seal Team 3 is in a different location. Seal Team 7's like, they're all in different locations now. Trade. It's in a different location. When I was at those commands, they were all a hundred meters apart. So when I was 18 years old, I look at those stairs, and I was like. I remember walking up those stairs, you know? And you get reminded of these things. If you don't get reminded of them, they fade away. They just fade away. And so if you don't take notes on what you're doing and what. How things are going and where you are, you just forget them. Yeah. And if you think about what your life is, your life is memories. Like, if you don't have memories, what you. You're a dog, right? You ever look at your dog and you're like, I mean, my dog, as smart as they seem, they have no idea what's going on. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes, you know. You know. You know when you talk to your dog.

B (9:43)

Yeah.

A (9:43)

You're like, hey, buddy, I'm gonna head out for a little while. That dog is just like, this means nothing.

B (9:48)

Yeah.

A (9:48)

He's like, am I going with you or not? Like, do I get in the car or not? That's the only. It's a binary thing.

B (9:53)

Yeah.

A (9:54)

And when you leave, he doesn't know if you're gone forever. Yeah. Or if you're gone for five minutes. But he's gonna. He's just. Look, that's the way he's looking at me. He's looking at me like, I don't know how long you're gonna be gone for. Forever. Is this goodbye? Yeah. But he doesn't know. So he's just there. And if you don't take notes on what's going on in your life. And by the way, I'm not preaching this because I didn't do it. I did not do this. I wish I would have done this. When we had Joe Claiborne on the podcast, and he pulled out his journals, and he's got detailed drawings of everything that he did. First time in the military. Man, that is awesome. And look, it's not just military. That's why I brought up you going to college.

B (10:29)

Right.

A (10:30)

But, you know, you go to college, you get a job at some place, you meet some girl. You know, one thing that's cool is I got letters. Thankfully. You know, my wife saved all the letters that I wrote to her, you know, and I. She found some. Yeah, she was going through some yesterday. I was like, dang, Girl, let's go. You know what I'm saying? But here it was, yeah, if you don't have that, then, you know, what are you gonna do? Like I was telling her in this letter, I said, hey, you know, when I get out of the Navy, I'll get a job while I'll be home more. I said, maybe I'll be an OB lifeguard, you know. Oh, she beats. I said, maybe OB lifeguard, question mark. But the funny thing is I remember thinking that might not be a bad job for me. Get out of the Navy, retire from the Navy and then be a lifeguard and, you know, be on down the beach, surf, you know, whatever. Be home, go home for lunch or something. You know, that was a real thought that I had. So. But if I didn't read that, I would have been. I would have never thought about that again.

B (11:33)

Yeah.

A (11:34)

So if you can make some small notes, even if you just. And you're gonna see some of this journal is just literally what happened that day, minimum minimal of what happened. So keep that in mind and you're going to see some of the, some of the profound writing that comes out of that in this book. Matter of fact, obviously I'm not reading the whole book. Hitting some highlights. This is when he's talking about the guys that are getting trained up to go to Vietnam. During his training cycle in the company, the Marine replacement spends three days in administrative administration matters, and then he moves to a field training area for nine days. Here he is giving classes on classes on Viet Cong mines and booby traps, search of a Viet Cong village, booby trap trails and fires the various weapons available to him, especially the M16 rifle. A lot has been said about the M16. Most of it's good after firing it, I feel it's a good weapon, but must be kept clean to function properly. An entire Vietnamese village has been built at the staging battalion. After a demonstration of the techniques of the village search, each Marine applies the lessons learned by going through the village under simulated conditions. What struck me about this is this is exactly what we did, getting guys ready for Afghanistan and Iraq. We built simulated villages. We sold them how to clear them and what to do with them, and then we put simulated conditions. The same applies to the Viet Cong trail to see if he notices mines and booby traps. By the way, as you heard from Roger Hayden on this podcast, they started doing that point man trail during Nam. And we still ran the exact same point man trail when I was running training. Upon completion of the training cycle, Marines are sent to one of three bases to fly out. Travis Air Force Base, Norton Air Force Base, or Marine Corps Air Station. At El Toro, telephone calls are made, letters written then to Okinawa aboard a 707. Excess uniforms and gear are stored at Okinawa. A 24 hour to 48 hour stop. Those going to Vietnam land at Da Nang. For me, another tour has started and he arrives 23rd December 1967. It's Christmas Eve and those going home are trying to get out. Some will not make it in time for Christmas. At home, army buses bring them in at all hours of day and night. Many of them are still dirty and only a few hours out of Vietnam. Outside, a group of young marines in their fresh greens, three or four more, three or four ribbons on their chest are smiling and joking, waiting to shove off for home. Passing them are another group, sea bags on their shoulders, going to barracks. These Marines are their replacements. Going south. When their flight is ready, they is taking place in. Ok, now I didn't make that clear. As a couple pass me, I hear one say, I sure hope I come back. As he looks at the group going home, his buddies reply, don't worry, you'll come back. One way or another, you'll come back. That's like the classic, the classic Vietnam scene, right? The, the battle hardened guys coming out of the field in jacked up cammies and all that, dirty, skinny, worn. And then the fresh cuts coming in, they're just fresh off the, fresh off the boat, getting ready to head over there. You know I talked about that on one of the Unraveling podcasts. We had some of the contractors that were getting ready or they, they swung by. This is my first appointment. This is like 2003, 2004. Actually this was 2004 and we like the contractor showed up from like a contracting company and you know, they're wearing like brand new gear and you're looking at it and you're like, man, I don't know if I'd put my magazines over there. Like it's gonna be hard to get to. Like when you're in a vehicle, you're not gonna be able to access your pistol. Like you're having all those thoughts. And then the one thing, like they were traveling in armored vehicles, but armored vehicles at that time were just basically like a Ford Explorer and they put like armored, they don't put armored windows in kind of armor. The door they'd, they'd put in the trunk, whatever. What do you call it? The trunk of a, of a suv?

B (15:42)

Yeah, I call it the trunk?

A (15:43)

Yeah. So that thing wasn't armored, but they put, like, armor behind the back seat, so. And they didn't really do much with the suspension. It was just basically the cheapest possible armored vehicle you could make. And then remember asking the guys, like, hey, do you guys have run flats? Which is a vehicle tire that can run even when it gets shot. It'll keep going for a little while. I'm like, do you guys have run flats? No, we don't. So that means if you get your tire shot out, you're not going to be able to drive anymore. And it was terrible to see, and it was a foreboding of what was going to happen. Fast forward a little bit. The Marines live in hooches, about eight or more to a hooch. Many have TVs in the hooch. There is a chapel for church services and a recreation hunt for working out, drawing, sporting gear and some paperback novels. The mess hall is large and being fixed up all the time at night. Movies are shown there. One incoming shell hit the corner of the mess hall, but it's repaired now. Just giving you, like, some kind of a feel for what the guys are living. When arriving in Vietnam, we are taught to respect the native customs, traditions and religion. Don't shoot up the temples or destroy the graves of ancestors. Respect the native beliefs, the Marines tribe. But sometimes is mighty hard. The tracked landing vehicles, LTVs from one of our companies had been going on a path between some graves in area of operations when the mine went off, wounding the driver and causing quite a bit of damage. Charlie knew that the vehicles would not go through the graveyard. So as the vehicles were channeled between the graves, he placed his minds in the best position. The company. The company sergeant, company gunnery sergeant on his second tour of duty in Vietnam, was suspicious. He ordered the remaining vehicles side to side and drove through the graveyard, tearing the graves apart. Many graves in Vietnam are about 18 inches high, small mounds of earth. Afterward, the Marines dug through the graves. Not one body, not a bone, nothing. Charlie had made a dummy gravesite, knowing that the vehicles would not go through, and implanted his mind where the vehicles would have to travel. Sort of like fighting a war with the deck stacked against you. Sometimes it is hard for the Marines to respect those customs, traditions, religions, and graveyards because the enemy is going to take advantage of it. And now they had that thing where they, you know, they called the VC Charlie. And then they talk about Charlie as a individual human, you know, like he planted the mind.

B (18:10)

All right. Yeah, yeah.

A (18:11)

Like we would call the Enemy Moos.

B (18:13)

Yeah.

A (18:15)

And. But you. You moosh is plural. It was like the moosh. It wasn't like a moosh.

B (18:21)

Right.

A (18:22)

It was the moosh. All of them. They all planted a mine there.

B (18:25)

Yeah, yeah.

A (18:25)

Because. But Charlie's singular.

B (18:28)

Yeah.

A (18:28)

And so they talk. Now we talk about the enemy. Like we would call the enemy.

B (18:32)

He. Yeah, yeah.

A (18:33)

Like you'll hear the military leaders will do that. You know, we've got the enemy over here. We think he might do this. They talk about the enemy in a singular way, but moosh is a little less singular.

B (18:44)

Yeah.

A (18:44)

The moves over here. No, we. I never really said that. I always think. Thought of the moos. Plural.

B (18:50)

Yeah.

A (18:50)

They tried to say we couldn't say moosh.

B (18:52)

Yeah. This is what, Disrespectful.

A (18:55)

Yeah. Because of the traditions. Right. And mujahideen is like warrior for God. But here's when this word came down, I sent up the chain of command that the local populace who hated the insurgents that were fighting and killing them, you know what they called the insurgents that were fighting and killing them? Mujahideen. Moosh.

B (19:16)

Mo. Yeah.

A (19:16)

And so, you know, we were being so aggressively politically correct.

B (19:20)

Yeah.

A (19:21)

That it was. We went overboard. They're moosh. The local populace who hates them calls them moosh.

B (19:29)

Very principled, which is.

A (19:31)

Yeah, check fast forward a little bit. By the way, this is just a fantastic book. 9 January 1968. The young corporal had no statement to make. And by the way, just echo Charles. So he's a senior guy. You know, we. We've read a lot of books from senior officers. We've read a lot of books from frontline kind of soldiers and Marines. This guy's a senior enlisted Marine, so his perspective is. Is a little different than we're used to hearing. And again, for our podcast, just by virtue of people that write books, we've got a lot of junior enlisted guys. We've got a lot of officers and then senior officers. But the senior nco, we've done some, but he's a really good example of it. That's why his perspective is. Is so interesting. The young corporal had no statement to make. He had given a written one at the investigation. The company commander and I were at battalion headquarters because the Marine was from our company. The sergeant major had just marched the Marine in, and the colonel asked him if he had any statement to make. I have read your statement, said the colonel. Would you care to repeat it to me to be sure I have read it correctly? Yes, sir. And the Marine told his story The Marine, a corporal, had been in charge of an ambush patrol one night outside the wire. His patrol instructions were to set up an all night ambush for the vc. After the corporal placed his Marines in position, a noise was heard where no Marine was supposed to be. Thinking it was the vc, some of the patrol members fired. It was one of their own men. He had moved out of position and wandered into the kill zone. He told his buddies in the patrol to say the VC shot him. He didn't want any Marines to be blamed because the guy lived. So he got shot by his own guys. He lived and he told his buddies in the patrol to say the VC shot him. He didn't want any of the Marines to be blamed. The corporal talked it over with the patrol and they decided to claim it was enemy action. Upon return to camp, the corporal made his report. It was a false report. Next day, on his own, he decided to correct his report and make a true statement. Now he faced the colonel for final action on his case. Now, what you got to remember about this is, is if you don't tell everyone what happened, no one learned anything because that's a mistake.

B (22:07)

Yeah.

A (22:07)

And if you don't say, hey guys, we had one of our guys that had to take a piss or he wanted to go check something out and he left the wire and we shot him. If you don't say that to everybody, other people will make that mistake. That's what makes this. That's what makes this so important. Continue on. You step forward on your own. Question the colonel. Yes, sir. The control of your squad was poor. The corporal as a squad leader, must have complete control of his squad at all times. He may be called upon to make quick decisions at any moment. They must be right, the right decisions. The corporal made an error, corrected it later, but he made the wrong decision. Now he was man enough to step forward and admit it. Marines get killed in war and sometimes it has been friendly fire that killed them. War is hell and accidents do happen. No need for a false report. An unfortunate accident, but it was not his fault. A Marine had wandered into the wrong area after he had been placed in position by the patrol leader. Fortunately, the Marine was only wounded seriously, but he was recovering in the hospital for a false report. Reduction to the rank of lance corporal, said the corner colonel. Considering the excellent service record of the corporal, his performance of duty, and based on the recommendation of others, the colonel continued, the sentence is suspended for a period of three months. So he busted him down in rank, but said, if you can keep your nose Clean for three months, you'll be okay. But you can understand that if you're a corporal and you have a blue on blue, you think this is the mortal sin. So you don't understand that the senior leadership goes, hey, man, we get it, accidents happen. But when you lie about it, that's a problem. Again, once again, lessons don't get learned. The COVID up will always get you. You cannot cover things up. Is that understood? Said the colonel as he looked in the corporal hard in the eyes. Yes, sir, replied the corporal, and a very slight look of relief seemed to pass over his face. You showed the mark of a man when you stepped forward and corrected an error. Use better judgment from now on. Yes, sir. About face. Order the sergeant major march out. There is a young corporal in this battalion that has the mark of a man upon him. A man among many in this battalion of marines taking. That's a. What a great story. 2 pages taking ownership of what's going on in your world.

B (24:28)

Yeah, I mean, I know you put the tone on it when you're reading it, but he was like, accidents happen. No need for a fake report. I was like, man, that's kind of, that's kind of solid because there's, there's different ways to say that, you know, like if you're. It was almost like making a fake report seemed kind of understandable. But hey, don't worry, don't. There's no need for that, you know, I see why you thought you had to do that, you know, but hey, there's no need for that because accidents happen and, you know, whatever. Rather than, let's say, accident. Accidents happen, man, you shouldn't have made that fake report, you know, kind of a tone, you know, now you're really, you know, it's. It's a different kind of thing where you can. Now with that first one, you can emphasize this, like, learning process. Like, hey, this is like kind of part of the process, you know, don't jam it up by doing, you know, this stuff, you know, it's okay, you don't have to do that.

A (25:26)

You know, it is very strange how people perceive what is going to get them in trouble.

B (25:31)

Yeah, right.

A (25:32)

And we've talked about this in a bunch of different ways, but thinking, you know, when you cover something up, it's going to be way worse.

B (25:38)

Yeah.

A (25:38)

You should learn that as a kid. You know, the time that you lied to your parents or the time that you, whatever, you, you tried to get one over on the teacher and you try and cover something up, that's when things, that's, that's what you're going to get in trouble for. People make mistakes. Now look, if you're doing something intentionally bad and you purposely do something and then you try and cover it up, like, that's going to be double bad. But when you make an honest mistake, I could promise you no one wanted to freaking wound one of their own marines, guaranteed. So you shouldn't be covering that up. Not to mention, like I said, now you got lessons that are not being learned.

B (26:15)

Yeah, yeah.

A (26:16)

Which is not good.

B (26:17)

You and this. It's so funny. I can see these little patterns where it kind of gets all mapped down to this idea of short term versus long term, you know, so like covering up something or making excuses or whatever, that's like so much of a short term in the moment cope, you know. But if you see kind of the big picture and the overall thing that's going on long term, it makes more sense even from a logical, even from a survival standpoint or even from a defense mechanism standpoint. If you're like thinking of the long term, you're thinking about learning, you're thinking about, like, how is this going to affect things over time? You know, rather than. Yeah. Covering up. If you think about how's this, how is my cover up going to affect things over time? One, you're living a lie, which is shameful. And you know that. I think that haunts most people, you know, when you're living a lie. Yeah.

A (27:09)

Because when's it going to come out?

B (27:10)

When's it going to come out? You're getting held hostage about it. Yeah. You know, it's like feel slimy too on the inside. And then, and then. Yeah, like how you said, like no one learns from it seems. But then even when you kind of expand that out, it kind of makes you think like, hey, let's say you're dealing with kids or you're a boss or you are a boss and you're dealing with like your employees, whatever. It kind of paints a different picture than what you might see normally. So like, you know, you know, the kids make mistake, they get punished for it or the kids make mistake. He admits to it and it's like, well, at least you admitted to it kind of a thing. Yeah. But I'd kind of probably be beneficial to be like, hey, I like that you freaking manned up. That's what a, that's what a real like man or human or you know, whatever. That's what, that's what a person with character does. And bro, I Noticed that. Good job. You know, keep that up kind of a thing. If you can kind of engineer it where you're cultivating that, it'll come more natural over time.

A (28:04)

No doubt. No doubt. Yeah, we. We lean real hard into. You lied to me or you tried to cover this up and you're going to pay for that. As opposed to like, oh, you did a good job admitting that something went wrong. Good job. Lean into that one more. Yeah, that positive reinforcement.

B (28:18)

The idea of like problem solving, you know, a problem slash solution kind of way of handling it, I felt like has been a good, good move, you know, let's say, I don't know, someone forgot to take out trash or someone freaking, you know, spilled some. Whatever. Whatever the problem is, the problem is, okay, my boy spills chocolate milk. Whatever. The problem is. Chocolate mold. Okay? The problem is that milk is spilled. Yeah, right. The problem is, hey, maybe, maybe he was. Wasn't being as careful as maybe he could have or should have been in the kitchen in that particular moment, in that particular place. Those are the problems, right? Don't make another problem by yelling at the kid. Now you got another problem. Monk still spilt. He still was not very careful. And now you kind of either whether he damaged the relationship. Now he's scared. Now he, you know, whatever. If you're like, hey, look, the problem is the mocha spilt. We're going to try to be more careful. Clean up the moke. No problem. You know, thanks for taking responsibility. That's a better way to do it than yelling at him. Because now, okay, he's. He cleans it up, problem solved. He'll be more careful. Problem solve. He took responsibility and is more inclined to take more responsibility in the future when mistakes happen, which they do. Future problem solved. See, I'm saying.

A (29:40)

There you go.

B (29:41)

Rather than yelling and screaming.

A (29:43)

Yelling and screaming, that's the worst. Not gonna help. Fast forward. 13 January 1968. The Reaction Squad was going out on patrol this afternoon. So I decided to go along since all my clerks and the supply sergeant are on the reaction squad. Now why would a 40 year old first sergeant go on patrol with a squad of marines when he did not have to go? It has been 17 years since my last patrol. Korea, 1950. I was a corporal then and much younger. H and S company provides the reaction squad for the battalion. It's composed of the Marines from heat and steam. I believe it exemplifies the doctrine of the Corps. All marines and riflemen first are Riflemen first and specialist second so what the group that he's in charge of is kind of like the administrative group headquarters and but they are the quick reaction force. So if something happens, these clerks and cooks and they're going to get their gear on and go get it. So they're going out on patrol. Fast forward a little bit. We leave the road now and start across country, sometimes referred to as Indian country. There are many native graves through here. We see see bullet scars on many a headstone. Fast forward. There are times Charlie plants booby traps on the side of the dikes, then fires. If you jump off and into the patty, you may land on a booby trap. So if Charlie fires a few rounds, this old man will fall down on the trail. That's something the Vietnam guys told us and it's always true. Like you're walking down the street and there's like a. If you start getting shot at and there's a perfect area of COVID chances are you getting blown up if you go in there. And this guy. I didn't experience this but In Afghanistan the IEDs got so bad that even when they got contacted they wouldn't like move to cover. They would stay where they are, get down. But they'd have to be very, very cautious. Fast forward. An interesting three hour walk. So now I've been on patrol. What was it like? Routine. I guess after 24 years of soldiering one of one type or another, it seems a bit routine. The feeling at 40 is more relaxed than it was at 20. The average age of this squad is probably 20. They are good and know their business. Some of them have been hit while on patrol, so they know the score. You can tell they like seeing an old salt along. It gives them a bit of confidence. So you do not want to fail them if the chips are down. It has been said that the old salt is the anchor on the line and maybe he is. They know and I know that a first sergeant is not supposed to go out on patrols. But it does not happen every day and I think some of them liked it. Thirteen young Marines on patrol and an old salt thinking, hell, these rice paddies smell no different than the ones in Korea. Fast forward. 16 January 1968. Rumor is we may have. We may be hit in Dang area before Tet. Vietnamese New Year. 100% alert. All hands in holes can sleep but ready for action. Fast forward. According to Military Assistance Command Vietnam statistics for 1967 are 87, 534 enemy dead. The total of the enemy dead is the equivalent of more than 114 NVA battalions Americans killed in action. KIA for 1967 or 15,997. It's a different level than I experienced for sure. Fast forward. January 24th January 1968. The old war horse heard the sound of the bugle and trotted off to battle. It was about 4:30 in the afternoon when the word was passed. Reaction squad and tractors down to the the COC bunker. Now draw your ammunition, draw your rations. Ammo radioman and a corpsman. I went topside and talked to one of my office clerks, Sergeant Tidwell, the assistant squad leader. Why don't you go with us, First Sergeant? I sure would like to, but the old man would probably say no. You could check with the captain. He wasn't too happy about me going last time. The old War horse could hear the bugles. He sort of got that old feeling, some of that gung honus. Not wanting to be left in the rear with the gear, he galloped off to see the company commander for permission to go. Can't do it, said the captain. Damn it to hell, why not, Skipper? After some hard talking to the skipper, the skipper said okay, if the EXO approves. The EXO was the battalion executive officer. So off galloped the old War horse again. No, said the major. How could we justify it? Although the answer was no, the bugle could still be heard. But it was no use. First sergeants do not go with the squads on patrol or small sized operations. Besides, the colonel was against was six in the evening. The tracks bellowed a roar with their engines and started through the wire at the back of the CP area. The old War horse could see the reaction squad atop the tracks. Corporal Scott, the special services nco, Corporal Malone, the chaplain's assistant. Corporal Stubbs, who would be going home soon. Sergeants reborn Ort and Tidwell and others. Through the exhaust sand and setting sun, the old War horse sensed another feeling. As the young colts rode off. I damn near cried, he wants to go get some and he can't. And they tell him he can't. Like it's, you know, two tracks going out with whatever 12, 15 Marines. He it's just not justifiable. And you know, he did go out on some patrols. You can go out, you know, like the right time. But the skipper said no. Fast forward the 7th of February 1968. There were two small paper bags on my desk. I knew what they were were before I opened them. The personal effects of the bodies of our two marines killed in action. I opened the first bag. It contained a small religious medallion, insignia of rank, and a cigarette lighter. The lighter still had blood on it. The Marine had been shot three times in the chest. Chris, I yelled, yes, top, clean the blood off this lighter. Can't send it home like that. Chris is a Lance Corporal. Steve Christensen, Boise, Idaho, the company driver, a good Marine. The other bag contained $11 in military script and a religious medal on a chain. One married, one signal. Charlie plays no favorites. Chris, get the jeep. I want to go to the hospital. We have two wounded Marines there, both from the same operation. Four wounded and two dead. That platoon really got hit. We arrived at the hospital and it was like all the others in a war zone. Men sitting around, medics and corpsmen going from place to place, the stretcher bearers waiting for the copters to come in with the medevacs. One right there was fresh. Must have just arrived. The sign on the door said Ward 5A. He's in here. Lance Corporal Eugene Bevel from Texarkana, Arkansas, was wounded in the left hand and below the right eye by shrapnel and small arms fire. The LTV he was riding on was hit while in support of an infantry unit. He saw his buddies get hit. The one with the $11 on my desk was, quote, reaching down to help a wounded grunt when he got hit. Belleville continued the story. I saw him straighten up when he was hit. One of the men grabbed him before he fell off the track. Belleville sat there a minute, quiet. He had that stare many men get in wars when a battle or a fight is still fresh in their minds, remembering what it was like with their buddies dying around them. He had a misty look in his eyes when I left, probably glad it was over for him and yet not wanting to leave his buddies behind. I do not know. I suppose it was a look of unbelief. The ambulance was leaving with a load of cases when I climbed aboard the jeep. Among the fringe benefits of being a first sergeant is the honor of visiting Marines in the hospital, identifying the kias and inventorying personal effects. Someone has to do it. For my kias, it is all over. For the wounded in action, if they're lucky, it's a trip back home. For me, it will probably mean more kiyas and wounded in action and more widows and heartbroken parents. That part of war has never changed. A few days later, 13 February 1968 is customary for the skipper to write a letter of condolence to the family of a Marine killed in action. After the skipper wrote a letter to the parents of one of our kias and the wife of another. I sat down to write one of my own. I had some color Polaroid photographs of the memorial service held for our two kias and thought the parents and wife would like to have them. Dear Mrs. Smith. And Smith is just the fake name. Dear Mrs. Smith. Enclosed are two photographs of the memorial service conducted by our battalion for your husband and another Marine recently killed in action. I know your grief is great at this time, but it may help to know that when your husband was killed, he was trying to help another Marine. He was among Marines from this company providing support to an infantry company in a battle a few miles from here. When your husband was hit, he was reaching down from his LVT to try to pull a rifleman aboard. His LVT had gone in to try and rescue Marines. I thought that you would like to know this. Very sincerely, Jack W. Jonnell, First Sergeant of Marines. And later he received this letter which he published in the book. Dear 1st Sergeant JohnL I've received your letter and pictures, and I will be forever thankful. My husband was a hero and he was a hero to his son. All I knew was that he was killed. I did not know how he died. Now I know he was a hero and always will be to his son. And I. God bless you. Fast forward. 25 February, 1968. I enter the company office and the skipper gives me the scoop. First. It will be the same as last night. 100 alert. No one sleeps. We will go to the wire at 1900 hours and come off at about 0700 tomorrow. So one of the things that I, you know, I'm fast forwarding through a bunch of the book, but they're on a base like a forward operating base, and they're expecting attack. And so the enemy's outside the wire and they have to protect their small forward operating base. So a lot of times, a lot of their duty, even when they're back in base, they're out there, you know, on the line, on the wire, on the perimeter, securing the perimeter. And it's long, miserable nights, night after night. So they're out there on this. Guess I'll go check the line and. And I start for the first hole. It was getting misty now, going to get wet. Tonight the Marines are awake and alert near Bunker three. I meet the skipper. He's out checking the line. Also, it was at bunker three we had two men wounded in December. Takes me about 45 minutes to check the line. On my way back to my Bunker I stop at the mess hall for a cup of coffee. The night cook, Corporal William E. Sterman from Midland, Texas, looks up and greets me. How many gallons of coffee have you made tonight? I ask. About 45 gallons, he replies. That's a lot of coffee. How Many last night? 90 gallons. We may beat it tonight. It's early yet. We drink a lot of coffee to stay awake these nights. Marines come to the galley and get coffee all night. They fill their canteens and take it back for themselves and their buddy in the hole. Midnight, it starts to rain. Three o' clock in the morning. I go check positions. How's it going, Marine? Rough, replies the Marine. But at least it stopped raining. Good Marines work all day and stay up all night. Two, maybe three hours of sleep in the morning and all over again. How many nights will we do this for? Last time it was 10. That's the duty. And again, you know, I'm fast forwarding through a bunch of this stuff. And he goes through some of the monotony of it, some of the fear of it, some of the stress of it. Very, very heavy. And it's just day after day after day. And occasionally, you know, like, they'll do that for 10 days and then they'll get a little bit of security or they'll get intel that, you know, the enemy's standing down. So they'll get a couple good nights of sleep, but. And then on top of that, they're going out on patrol in the day. You know, it's interesting, you know, in, in Vietnam, the VC attacked at night, and the VC owned the night is what they said.

B (43:44)

But.

A (43:44)

And the seals were one of the few groups that actively patrolled at night. They met the enemy where the enemy was. But these guys, they, they sit on base at night and secure their base, Right?

B (43:58)

Right.

A (43:59)

But then during the day they're going out on patrols. Fast forward. 9 April 1968. My gear was in the jeep. I climbed aboard and told my driver to shove off. I was on my way. It had been 13 years since I left recon. I was looking forward to this assignment. Recon had grown inside over size over the years from a company to a battalion. I waved to the guard as we drove out the gate. Third Amtrak is a good outfit, I thought, but I'd always wanted to return to recon and now I was on my way. Last time I was a staff sergeant in A division recon company and now I would be sergeant major of a recon battalion. So he's gotten promoted and he's moving from the track element that he was with. Now he's going to be with a recon battalion. Fast forward. I picked up my gear and walked towards my new hooch. It felt good to be back in recon, especially as a sergeant major. 26-4-1968. One of our reconnaissance patrols by the name of Rice Krispies had been hit about 4 o' clock in the morning by enemy mortar or rocket fire. Their mission was completed and they were to be lifted out by helicopter at daylight. Seven enemy rounds hit them. The first one hit a rock directly in their position. One Marine was killed. The radio operator. Three were wounded, one seriously. We arrived at the hospital just as the medevac helicopter arrived. As it landed, a couple of corpsmen ran out with a stretcher. It was the kia, the body wrapped in a rain poncho. We followed them into the receiving hut. The corpsman cut the binding and unwrapped the poncho. It was a young Marine, probably no more than 19. He was covered with dirt and blood and although he had been on patrol for five days, he had very few whiskers. Too young to grow a beard yet. He was hit in the back by shrapnel going through his pack and radio. The back of his head was bloody. Looks as if the one in the back of the head that killed him. I noticed the dead Marines first sergeant had entered. He is a short man, tough and all Marine Corps. I sometimes think of him as a small bulldog, a fighter. I noticed the bulldog's eyes. They look a little misty. He came down to identify the body. One of the more unpleasant tasks of a first sergeant. It hurts. The good ones especially. He was a good man. I remembered seeing the Marine in the area. He looked different. Then the corpsman took off the dead Marine's identification tag. The body was pale, eyes open. It had been about five hours since he was hitting. It is a little hard to take. Every time you see one of these wounded or dead Marines. It must be a fatherly reaction. Or maybe I subconsciously think of them as my own sons. As they removed articles from the body, I noticed a small piece of cloth, about 3 by 5 inches. It was red and white with a small patch of blue in one corner. Dirty with some blood on it. It was between his chest and camouflage jacket. A small American flag. He was a good Marine and he thought enough of this flag to carry it on patrol with him. As it was taken from his young and now lifeless body. I could not help but think of the other young Men alive who burn or try to burn our flag. The flag this young Marine died for. I am in no mood for flag burners today. Fast forward. 17 May 1968. Patrol hit by lightning last night. One man died in the hospital. One man wounded by an enemy booby trap. 19 May 1968. Hoim birthday. You know that, that lightning strike. There's more about these lightning strikes. Never. I never thought about that before in all my reading of Vietnam. You know, you're out there with an antenna. You're out there with a metal antenna sticking up. There's lightning storms and it was not uncommon that guys would get hit and killed by lightning. And, and not only that, you're going to see a lot of this. Like when your environment is explosives, helicopters, machine guns out, out in the wilderness, like there's, there's a lot of violent ways and accidental ways to die. And you often don't think about that as much. 22 May 22, May 1968. One KIA reported and two wounded in action. Staff Sergeant Hughes killed with the first air calf. He told me it would happen and he was right. So there's a couple Marines that get attached to the 1st Air Cav and Sergeant Hughes didn't feel good about it. Staff Sergeant Hughes didn't feel good about It. 24 May 1968. Major Keating, our S3 officer, died of wounds. Our observers were with teams from the air cab to view their methods of operations, an exchange of tactical ideas, especially recon inserts. So they had sent two guys with the Air Cav and they both end up getting killed. Memorial services. 26 May 1968. Memorial services for Major Keating and Staff Sergeant Hughes. Darn near cried. 28 May 1968. Team in trouble. One killed in action. Four fell off a cliff. 29 May 1968. Tried to go out with a rescue team rested. Team brought in at 12:30. 30 May 1968. Went out to Hill 10 and back. Patrol ran into trouble. One killed in action, one wounded in action. 30 May 1931. May 1968. Two patrols in trouble. Four wounded in action. And this is again, these are small notes that he's taking. But at least you can look back and remember what happened on that day and you can see what their days are like day after day after day. It's absolutely brutal. Fast forward. 29 June 1968. Two killed in action, one wounded in action. From Company A 3rd of July 1968. Lost eight men. Went down and copped or shot down. All lost. 4th July 1968. Lieutenant wounded in head today while on patrol 5th July 1968. Visited patients in hospital. 7th July 1968. The chapel was almost filled when I entered. It would be crowded today with Marines outside listening. Before the memorial was over, it was a rough one to take. Eight men lost, all at one time. Our largest single loss to date. One of our recon patrols was being inserted when their helicopter came under enemy fire. The helicopter had almost landed when Charlie opened up. The pilot radioed under fire, tried to take off and as he did, the chopper was hit. The report from the escort aircraft said it went up in a ball of flame, fell to the ground and exploded. The pilot, co pilot, pilot, two crewmen and our eight men were killed. Our reaction force went in and brought out the bodies. The only man not burned was the pilot. He'd been blown out of the aircraft. I looked at the memorial program. They were all listed by faith. Latter Day Saints, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish. The bodies straightened as they sang the hymn. And the words became stronger at the end as the hymn faded away. Everyone came to attention as they heard the firing squad. Ready, Aim. Fire. Ready. Aim. Fire. As the saluting volley was fired, I noticed a young sergeant in front of me. His soldiers twitched it with every crack of the rifles. Ready, aim. Fire. And then the sound of Taps flowed through the air, through the chapel, on the hill and across the fields. There's no sound more fitting for the military than taps. Sad and yet beautiful. It can make the tears flow. There had been a tear or two in the eyes of those in the chapel. It is hard to keep that small wet trail off the cheek. I know. 14 July 1968. Attended church services for two more KIA. 15 July 1968. Two men lost on patrol got separated. 18 July 1968. Put a sign up on the LZ. Named in honor of Major Keating. Keating Field Unofficial, but who will know the difference? Get to a point where you're kind of going to do what you're going to do out there.

B (53:45)

Yeah.

A (53:45)

Yeah. You know, you have to. I'll have to remind myself and talk to Leif about this, but, like there's some kind of protocol. Like when Mark was killed, we just renamed, you know. Oh, this is now Camp Markley. Yeah, like there's some protocol to follow. I do not think we did any of the protocol. You're gonna do what you're gonna do You. You know, it's a weird thing, like what matters.

B (54:14)

Yeah.

A (54:15)

You know, you lose eight guys, you lose Keating, you lose these. You're losing guys all the time. You know, these rules and regulations will stick to the big ones. But some of this ain't happening. Yeah, we're doing what we're doing. 28-7-1968. 0700 had scare H53 helicopter exploded in air. Thought 25 of our recon Marines were on board. It was the wrong chopper chopper. But all hands were lost. So this is after you lose eight guys. You know, you hear rumor that helicopter went down with 25 guys on board. It's a nightmare. 29 July 1968. Recon team shot out of a landing zone. 30 July 1968. Killed in action last night was a Marine who took my photo on a patrol. And he. This is a part of the book that I didn't read. He goes on a patrol and you know, guy. They're out there in the field and a guy took his picture and that guy is killed in action. August 1, August 1968. OP on Hill 200 overrun by NVA. 11 wounded in action. 5 killed in action. Reaction Force Company E3 wounded in action by booby trap patrol hit. 1 KIA. So this is a brutal deployment. 6 August, 1968. Accidental discharge of a 45 on Hill 200 medevac with a man of little toe. With a man's tip of little toe shot off. So again you got guys with, you know, a battalion worth of guys. Seven August 1968. Went to the 1st Hospital Company. Three Marines from Hill 425 brought in injured from 50 caliber machine gun exploding. All okay again, you're around freaking explosives. That's what a bullet is, a little explosive. 11 August 1968. One killed in action. One wounded in action from our own claymore. Accidental on Hill 420. 25. How does that happen? There's a million ways that can happen. What did they. Did the claymore fall down? Right? You have the claymore aimed in one direction. It falls over, gets tripped over, whatever. Now it's pointed the wrong way. Claymores are directional. You know what a claymore mine is?

B (56:44)

Yeah. Front towards enemy.

A (56:46)

Yeah, front towards enemy, bro. When I was a young kid, we. We blew claymores. And you know, our. Our instructors, our cadre, we. What we did was not. I wouldn't. It's not safe. You shouldn't do it. But we would detonate those claymores like, we would be a few feet from them. Like, you'd be like in a. Behind a tree or like in a little. In a little depression, you know, with like maybe a little rock outcropping, just clacking off claymores. Again, do not do this, because too loud and it's too loud, it's dangerous. Like, there's all kinds. There's all. A million reasons not to do it.

B (57:25)

Overall, bad idea.

A (57:26)

Bad idea. But you can be very close to them. And you know the explosion, you're going to feel the back blast. I mean, you get your bell freaking rung.

B (57:35)

Yeah.

A (57:35)

And again, this is stupid. Don't do it. But that's what we did back then. Part of it was, you know, you. You know, we thought we were going to Nam. Hell, yeah.

B (57:44)

Still think that.

A (57:45)

Still think that. You know, it was 1991.

B (57:48)

Yeah.

A (57:50)

But hey, you got to know how close you can be to these things in case you got to clack one off. Okay, sure. Now we know.

B (57:56)

Let me ask you this about the claymore. By your estimation, how far if the front. Right straight up front towards enemy. How. What kind of range does that have? Like, what do you call lethal distance or whatever?

A (58:08)

Yeah, the kill zone is probably like. I forget what the official kill zone is, but it's probably like. Like 20m, maybe 25 meters or something like that.

B (58:16)

Yeah, yeah. Strong. It has stuff in it, right? Yeah.

A (58:18)

It's got little ball. Yeah. These are like. We had to know how many of those ball bearings there were.

B (58:23)

How many are there?

A (58:24)

I don't know. I forgot. You know, this is.

B (58:26)

Forgot. Yeah, but like, what is it? Like 10, 20? Yeah, I feel like that's something like that that's going to jam me up.

A (58:37)

They're like the size of, you know, like a small ball bearing.

B (58:41)

Yeah.

A (58:41)

A tiny ball. Not a BB bigger than a B. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that kill zone. But there's all kinds of ways. Like, first of all, you know, someone could be planning it go off, it could fall down. And now it blasts towards people. Someone. Someone could set up in the wrong direction. That happens.

B (58:58)

Yeah.

A (58:58)

That's why it literally says front towards enemy. Yeah, but if you're a new guy and you're. You make a mistake, boom, you crack off a claymore, wound your own guys.

B (59:06)

Okay. Or you're distracted or whatever, bro. When you get. And I have a lot of respect for that notion right there where it was like front towards enemy and still people jam it up.

A (59:15)

I. I don't.

B (59:16)

I don't think that's Stupid.

A (59:17)

You understand that it's written on there for a reason.

B (59:19)

Yes.

A (59:19)

And it still can get overlooked.

B (59:20)

Oh yeah. Cuz be happening. So the. So every time I got surgery, right, they. They mark, they put an arrow on your arm. Like in my. On my knee, on both my arms when I got. It's like they draw just with a pen.

A (59:35)

Yeah.

B (59:35)

Before I go ahead. I was like, bro, what are you even doing? He's like, oh, well that's to make sure that the doctor operates on the correct arm. But I'm like, bro, the chart, like, yeah, you'd have a drawn out thing here with the, you know, it says right here, right distal, blah, blah, the whole freaking jargon. And they're like, I'm just saying like

A (59:55)

this, there's a reason.

B (59:56)

Yeah. This kind of stuff can happen. Like this, this. You know, hospitals are hectic. Like just the whole thing. And it's like it, it just helps assure that the job is done correctly. And I, So I asked, I was like, has that ever happened before? And they just laughing like, yeah, that happens before.

A (60:09)

Oh yeah.

B (60:10)

I was like, all right, cool, man. Hey, who am I? What am I?

A (60:13)

I would put an X on the other arm. Like do not cut this arm.

B (60:16)

Ghostbusters thing. Yeah, yeah, so. Yeah, exactly right, bro. So who am I to say like

A (60:20)

what I'm being for real? Because putting an arrow to indicate, like that's, that's not as good. Because you could still like pull the other arm out. But you forget about the whatever. I put a freaking X on that thing. Like not this arm. I would write in English, not this arm, the other arm, please.

B (60:37)

So true.

A (60:39)

14 August 1968. 1500 memorial service for KIA. 22 August 1968. Hill 200 hit one KIA, three wounded in action. Company E reaction force in at 0600. Visited wounded in hospital. Rappelled out of helicopter with company A. Surprise the hell out of the first sergeant. And I'm there. There's. I'm, you know, going. I'm fast forwarding through all kinds of good stuff here. Get this book. It's out of print. Get it, get a copy of it. This was kind of an interesting series here. 12 October 1968. Monsoon rains all morning. 13 October 1968. Some rain. Not much behind on helicopter lifts. 14 October 1968. Monsoon rains all day. No copters flying the 15. October 1968. Rains most of the morning, but clear most of the afternoon. 16 October 1968. Monsoon rains 6 inches in the morning Supposed to last for an hour another 48 hours. Can't get patrols in or out by air. No copters. So that's when that monsoon season hits and it's just rain. 18 October back to rains almost all day not as heavy. Couple teams three days overdue. 1300 General LeMay for briefing on recon. Plenty of security. It's always interesting when you connect these names. 19th October 1968 got two patrols in three days overdue because of bad weather. Tired, wet and hungry. How'd you like to be out on patrol? You get extended three days in the field. 20 October 1968 Memorial services for Marine killed by fire and burns Marine was okay when the colonel and I visited him at the hospital. Was in spirits by the time we got got back to the CP info the Marine had died. They have a nice spell but I'm going to fast forward. 7 November 1968 had first KIA since August sergeant from force almost blown in half by grenade Went to ID the body at med battalion the sergeant had been killed the battalion police NCO and wanted to be in the bush with our recon patrols. Why? I asked him even though I knew the answer I supported his request for reconnaissance duty. Hell, I remember how I felt during World War II he came to see me before his first patrol got my transfer sergeant major thanks for your help. Now he was dead from his chest to his groin was a big hole. 10 November 1968 Marine Corps birthday 193 years old. Ceremony visited hospitals visited hospital patients and brig. He's got people in the brig goes and visit those guys. I wish he didn't talk about what they who they were or what they did but. 12-11-1968 bad accident grenade went off on LZ killed 2 marines 2 in serious condition 5 wounded with small 2 with small cuts wounds Visited wounded in the hospital. In the Battalion Fast forward the 5th of December 1968 in the Battalion area the only the regulation cap was authorized. But when on patrol in the bush Recon Marines could wear almost anything on their heads. Most of the recon Marines like the RVN jungle hat or berets Several wore their Marine issued feel capped, some starched. This is like one of the most classic pieces of Marine Corps Americana Other types of headgear included the pirate A green or camouflaged cloth tied around the top of their head. Duck hunter A small brimmed field hat front down and back up collegiate A small brimmed field hat turned up all around. Foreign aft. The brim of the jungle hat was turned up in front and back as favored by Gunnery Sergeant T.F. sparks, Aussie. A large brimmed Australian type bush hat with the side turned up. Sometimes the side was pinned up with a black Marine Corps emblem. Safari. A large brimmed Australian type bush hat with the brim turned down all around. This type was favored by Corporal W.D. paul. His buddy Lance Corporal Gradunski. Favored the duck hunter. Both Marines are members of company being just returned from the bush. The cowboy. The new jungle hat with the sides turned up and creased on the crown. A favorite. The beret favored by Private First Class W.G. burton of Company A Sombrero. The new jungle hat with the brim turned up all around. Old core. The new jungle hat shaped like the Marine Corps campaign hat of yesteryear. My favorite we. It's a bummer that we wear helmets now.

B (66:03)

You like that?

A (66:04)

I mean. Yeah, I like that. But also I, I, when, when I went through buds, getting a floppy hat was like you, you kind of. When I got a SEAL Team 1 and I got issued my floppy hat. Yeah, I felt like I was in the days, you know, like I felt like I was a nom. Right? Because before that you're wearing this freaking starch cover, like a baseball hat looking type thing, this eight point cover they called it. But then when you get your, your, your jungle hat, your boonie hat, your floppy hat, your bush hat, that's all the, the name, all of them call it whatever.

B (66:39)

And the floppy hat, to be clear.

A (66:40)

Floppy hat. You.

B (66:42)

There's a picture of you. That's the one. It's like this, right? Like a. Yeah, like, like Jesse Ventura did in Predator. You ever watch Predator?

A (66:48)

But he went Australian style because one side was up.

B (66:51)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep. That's Australia.

A (66:52)

That's when Australians.

B (66:54)

I didn't know that. So. But that's a floppy hat though.

A (66:56)

That's a floppy hat. And I'd have to see it because it looked like it. That looked a little bit more like cordial or like a little bit more official or more formal. Looked like a. More formal. The way I remember it. But a floppy hat, you know, or a bush hat or a boonie hat or a bucket hat. Sometimes they call them, they call them all kinds of different things. But getting that back in the day was like, for me because I'd always seen the, the frogman from Vietnam, the seals from Vietnam in the floppy hat. And so that was, you know, that was the deal. And then you did wear it with a little bit of, you know, it has character, and how you wear it has character. And by the way, you ever seen, like, a cartoon where like, the person's. The. The character's face or like, hat kind of shows their expression, you know what I'm saying? So, like, let's say you're wearing your. Your boonie hat and you're like, kind of in the game. You can, like, flip the front up and you're kind of paying attention, but then you can get tired. You can, like, pull the front down. If you're feeling cocky, maybe you put up. Go, go. Like cowboy style. Like you can. You can kind of like reflect your mood.

B (68:06)

Okay.

A (68:06)

Let you let your guys know where you're at with the floppy.

B (68:10)

Yeah, floppy head allows.

A (68:11)

Yeah. But I still have the floppy hat that I got issued.

B (68:17)

Yeah.

A (68:17)

I was a new guy at Seal Team 1 and I had it my whole career, and unfortunately I never wore it. I never wore it in combat because we were wearing helmets.

B (68:24)

Yeah.

A (68:25)

Like, we. We switched to helmets, you know, right around when the war started.

B (68:31)

When. In the floppy hat that you have. I know. Oh, well, I know some of this because I have. I have some pictures of you wearing your floppy hat, and you looked very pleased with the whole scenario, for sure.

A (68:41)

I thought I was a nom.

B (68:43)

Yeah.

A (68:43)

You know.

B (68:43)

Well, you were in the jungle, though. The pictures I have, like, you're jungle for sure. Where's that? Like, Guam or something like that, I think.

A (68:49)

Well, it was either over in Southeast Asia, kind of sounds like now, but I wasn't. I was in Guam or I was in Thailand or something still, or we also used to go do jungle training in South America.

B (68:59)

Yeah.

A (68:59)

So that broke out, that floppy ad and just getting rained on and just feeling like you were in Nam.

B (69:04)

Yep. That's what the. The picture looks like. Your face, your facial expression.

A (69:08)

Expression, bro. All the guys from Salute, man, those guys are my heroes, you know, and, you know, even like now, you know, just having to. Had the opportunity to talk with all these guys, the guys from sog, the infantry guys, the. The Marine Corps grunts, guns up. You know what I'm saying? Like, these guys, that war and you know, me growing up, always, that was kind of what I want, you know, I went through when I was younger, I was World War II, you know. But then when I got older, like once I turned like 13, 14. Nom.

B (69:42)

Yeah.

A (69:43)

You know, because also they put out Apocalypse Now.

B (69:46)

Yeah, yeah.

A (69:47)

They put out Full Metal Jacket, they put out Platoon, all the. Those anti War movies that to me were just a war. Pro war.

B (69:56)

Yeah, it did have a. Have like kind of like a vibe. Vietnam, the whole Vietnam thing, like with the. Even like with the rock and roll stuff and the. The whole, you know, the whole thing

A (70:07)

just Crew water revival. Let's go.

B (70:10)

Did you know. I know I told you this. The drummer for. For Credence Clearwater Revival. His name Doug Clifford, by the way. My family knows him. We know what. Yeah, bro. So yeah, we're first.

A (70:21)

We're just finding this out right now.

B (70:22)

Yeah, bro. And this is how. Cuz my mom is a. Is a real estate person on Kauai, so he. And this was like. Was it in his heyday? You figured this was like 90s, like early 90s. And so he was a client of my mom's and she sold him a freaking house and stuff like that and they kind of hit it off or whatever. He had kids that were our age too, and. Oh yeah, we go to the house freaking like the whole deal. Yeah, yeah. Doug Clifford. I didn't know because I didn't know clearly Credence, you know, like a little kid and he's like. My mom's like, yeah, yeah, he's a drummer of this Credence Clearwater. My dad's like, oh, yeah. He's like a famous person or whatever. I'm like, okay, cool. And they kind of look at. Into. I was like, oh, yeah, it's cool.

A (71:01)

Old school, you know, some classic great band. Oh yeah, the. There was a cover band in my high school that covered Credence, and they were called Credence Clearwater Revival Revival. So, you know, let's go.

B (71:17)

Oh, yeah, yeah, it was. And. But I knew some of the songs that they did. I was like, oh, that's them. You know, that kind. What's the. The. The I See the Bad Moon Rising. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. And. But anyway. Yeah, yeah, what's cool.

A (71:30)

Yep, that's all that. That's all the Vietnam vibe.

B (71:34)

And.

A (71:35)

And we, you know, we elevate it, you know, I. In my mind. And then, you know, you what. What these guys went through was just absolutely. I mean, look at. I'm just in reading this guy's journal entry, K I, A K A K A. Like it's. It's as glorified as it was, you know, into a young kid in my head. But, you know, as you learn more about it, you realize these guys went, you know, went through such an atrocious combat and, you know, now we reflect on it and thank God you know, I've had the opportunity and I, you know, when you meet the seals from Vietnam, when I got to team one broke in the day, it's like these were, these were, these guys were my heroes, you know. So wild. It's been so cool to learn so much more about Vietnam than I knew when I was younger.

B (72:25)

Ah,

A (72:28)

here's an anonymous 24. December sounds like Christmas Eve 1968. Also, if you remember, he showed up, this was a year tour, basically back in those days in Vietnam. So he arrived just before Christmas. So he's getting towards the end of his tour. Twas the night before Christmas and all through my bunker my buddies were snoozing a less than sound slumber. Our stockings were hung to dry from the ceiling and mosquitoes were biting the bites that were healing. And I, in fatigues and a pot on my head, was thinking of home. And a warm cozy bed went out to my flank in a cut field of fire. I spotted some movement, first low and then higher. I started to stare, then remembered my training. Night vision is better when the eyes are not straining. As the object approached, I was glad that the sound was not like the scream of an incoming round. I gasped with surprise. As the object grew nearer, the image of Santa grew clearer and clearer. Traditional suit and a beard flowing white. I shook Joe beside me to wish witness the sight of a man and his reindeer. A sleigh full of cheer, just as we remembered from Christmas last year. But spirits declined as he passed overhead. We hoped he would land, but he did it instead. There you go. Christmas 1968. And there's a great. I can't read the the whole section, but there is a great section chapter in this book, 25 December 1968, of him going out to deliver hot meals, you know, to all the different elements that are out in the field. Chow Chuck arrived from the mess hall and we loaded it up. The chopper warmed up, the tailgate closed and we took off. First stop was Hill 200. A comp a platoon from Company B was on it. We headed for Hill 146, the Marines from Company E. Hill 146 is about the same size as Hill 200, except the area to land on is smaller. Hill 2425 was next. That would be Company D. It wasn't much larger than the last one, but at least the landing zone was down from the bunkers. Again we passed out the packages. The chaplain spoke. We climbed aboard our birds and took off for Bay Na, one mile. In the air it was Cool up there. Clouds all around. Wonderful be socked in at times. Bay Na is socked in. We can't get aircraft in for days. One time we had a platoon up there for 21 days before the weather cleared to fly in. Today the clouds were closing in. Looks like we can make it. An open spot. And the birds started in. We could see the Marines began to gather at the landing zone. As we unloaded, I got word from the pilot. Low on gas. Can't return for another takeoff. Besides, clouds are moving in. The chaplain cut his greeting short and we boarded the aircraft. We flew back to the lowlands to refuel at Hill 55. One more stop. Dong Den, if we can get in. Dongden was manned by Company C Marines and looked like we might not get in. No sunshine there. Too many clouds. An opening. We went in. Nice try. We touched down and we were off again. We tried again. Marines below guided us in. Over. A little more. Down. Hold it. Okay. Touchdown. We were on the ground. I realized how small the spot the LZ is. Damn good pilot. This would be a fast stop, unload. A few words and we were off before the clouds closed in. We swooped down fast under the clouds and then. Sunshine made them all. I shouted. The pilot looked back and gave me a big grin and a thumbs up before we left rlz. He said we would make them all. And we did. Back to the area and a Christmas meal. Except for the patrols in the bush. I'm finished playing Santa Claus this year. But it did make a Christmas worthwhile. So it was Christmas in Vietnam, 1968. He ended up going home shortly after that. A little piece here from the epilogue. It's been 20 years since these stories were first written. Some are fresh in my mind as the day they happened when. While others are less remembered. Each is a reminder, a reminiscence of Vietnam, 1968. Sometimes I still see the body of the young Marine sergeant who's almost blown in half by an empty grenade by an enemy grenade. And Staff Sergeant Hughes telling me they're going to get us killed. Sergeant Major. Many names and faces have been forgotten over the years. After three wars and 12 campaigns and over 33 years of military service, I was retired by from the Marine Corps on 1 May 1978. At the time I was Sergeant Major of the Fleet Marine Force Atlantic, Norfolk, Virginia. The formal ceremony for my relief and retirement was held on 26th April 1978, 10 years from the date. I noticed a small piece of blood stained cloth being taken from the dead body of a young recon marine. And I want to close out the reading that I'm going to do from this book from something that Sergeant Major Johnnell included in his book. And it's, it's actually something that he didn't write. This was something that was published in something called Sea Tiger, which was a weekly newspaper published by the Marine amphibious force during the Vietnam War from 1965 to 1970. So this is 2, August 1968. The following letter was written by Marine Lance Corporal Donald E. Gris, Company, a 5th Shore Party Battalion, and printed in the Sea Tiger. And here it is. Quote, Just imagine most of the guys over here are 18 and fighting to make it to 19. The average age of the combat soldier in many units here is 18 and a half. And what a man he is. A pink cheeked, tussle haired, tight muscled fellow who under normal circumstances would be considered by society as half man and half boy. Not yet dry behind the heirs and a pain in the unemployment chart. But here and now he is the beardless hope of free man. He is for the most part unmarried and without material possessions, except possibly for an old car at home and a transistor radio. Here he listens to rock and roll and 105 millimeter howitzers. He's just out of school, received so so grades, played a little football and had a girl who promised to be true. He has learned to drink beer because it is cold and it is the thing to do. He is a private first class, a non year veteran with one or possibly three years to go. He never cared for work, preferred waxing his own car to washing his father's. But now he is working or fighting from dawn to dark even longer. He can dig a foxhole, apply first aid to a wounded companion, march until he is told to stop, or stop until he is told to march. He has stood among hills of bodies and he has helped to build those hills. He has wept in private and in public and has not been ashamed of doing either. Because his pals have fallen in battle and he has come close to joining them. He has become self sufficient. He has two pairs of fatigues, washes one and wears the other. He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth but not his rifle. He keeps his socks dry and his canteens full. He can cook his own meals, fix his rips material or mental. He will share his water with you or if you are thirsty, break his rations in half if you are hungry and split his ammunition if you are fighting for your life. He can do the work of two civilians draw half the pay of one and yet find ironic humor in it all. He has learned to use his hands as a weapon and his weapon as his hands. He can save a life, or, most assuredly, take one. He is now 19, a veteran, and fighting to make it to 20. What a man. There you go. What a man, indeed. Out there living like that, dying like that. That's what. That's what man can do. That's what we can make ourselves. You know, there's one more thing that I found from Jack Johnnell that he wrote in on Memorial Day of 2003. And he.

B (81:43)

This is a.

A (81:44)

A little bit of an expanded version. You know, he mentioned that there was a sergeant that had asked him if he could go in the field. And, you know, he says, why do you want to go on the field? And he already knew the answer, but he asked him, you know, he wanted to be with his boys. He wanted to be. He wanted to serve. And he wrote a little bit more of a detailed account of that, and he published it on Memorial Day, like I said, in 2003. And it says, quote, during my service in Vietnam, I was sergeant major of the 1st Reconnaissance Battalion and 1st Marine Division. There was a young sergeant in our battalion who was the battalion police sergeant. The battalion police sergeant was responsible for the cleanliness of the battalion area. Other than what each company was responsible for, it was a duty he did not care for. Often during the day, he would greet me with a cheerful, hi, sergeant major. And sometimes we would have a brief conversation. One day he told me that he wanted to go to the bush on patrol and asked if I would help him. I told him he had a good deal and he should take advantage of it. Besides, he was a good police sergeant. However, I remember how I felt during World War II and wanted to get into the action and said I would help him if that's what he really wanted. I informed the battalion adjutant that I was in favor of the sergeant's return to his company. Besides, there were some marines that would like to stay out of the bush for a while. A few days later, the sergeant knocked on the door of my hooch, a wood frame with a tent over it, and I told him to enter. He wanted to tell me he was back with his company and was going on his first patrol. I want to thank you, sergeant Major, for helping me get back to my company. We had a few more words, and just before he left, he turned and said, thank you, sergeant major. The next time I saw that young sergeant was at the 1st Medical Battalion Hospital Graves Registration he was on stretcher dirty, pale and bloody. There was a large hole from the top of his chest to his groin as if a giant spoon had scooped out his inside sides. As I looked at his bloody body, I remembered his last words to me. Thank you Sergeant Major. Today I remember the words of that young sergeant. End quote. And Jack Johnl died 8th April 2012 but he thankfully left us these memories and left us these lessons and let's make sure that we all remember these sacrifices that have been made and the opportunities that we have. That's. Yeah. How about some. How about some decompression echo? Charles, what do you got for me?

B (85:06)

Yes, sir.

A (85:07)

Can you help me out over here?

B (85:08)

Yeah, sure. Yeah, it so kind of evaluating this whole situation and it kind of. I keep getting reminded from. With what you said in the beginning like where. Just take notes of. Or journal and you know, like take notes of these things that happen, you know. And it kind of. If you apply it to this right. Where it's like yes. Especially that end part. And actually kind of throughout the whole thing, if he didn't do this a lot of this guy, like this last guy, like all these guys, it's just not even a memory. Just sort of just came and went and you know, kind of nothing, you know, like, man, it's like that applies to kind of everything that kind of goes on.

A (85:52)

Yeah.

B (85:52)

Over time, you know.

A (85:55)

Yeah. You've really got to help your memory out. You got to record stuff and you're going to learn some so much from it. It's going to make your life more valuable. It's going to help other people.

B (86:05)

There was a. This is kind of random, but it's not the Movie seven. You ever watch the Movie seven? Yeah, you gotta watch so. By the way. But he was like they were driving in the car some scene, some transitional type scene. And they were like, hey, have you ever shot your weapon in, you know, in the line of duty or whatever? And he was like, oh, I only drew it once or whatever. And he goes, what about you? He's like, I drew it once, shot it once. And he starts kind of telling the story. And he was like the guy that was with him or whatever, he's like he got hit and it's like you. You could tell he was really trying to mem. Like remember the incident, you know, he's like, man, it spun him like a top. And he was like, he's like, what the hell was that guy's name? And he was like you could tell he was really like turmoiled by it. And I remember thinking like, that's a random scene, you know, but it's kind of like, oh, maybe it was that. Or maybe, you know, maybe that scene was meant to have more depth than maybe I interpreted it at the time, you know?

A (87:04)

Yeah, like your memory, you lose things.

B (87:08)

Yeah, even, even those heavy things, you know, and then it's like, yeah, he's trying to remember that guy's name because it's like significant, you know, like that dude, he went in first, took the hit, you know, kind of thing. It's like I don't even remember his name kind of a thing, you know?

A (87:22)

Yeah.

B (87:22)

Weird.

A (87:23)

Yeah, you gotta, you gotta know, you got to take notes on what's happening. You know what is a nice thing is voice recording, like voice memo. And it's so much easier. And by the way, nowadays with voice to text, right, you can just like talk about what you did on this day. Boom. Put it out. Put out the word. You know, you'll be able to look back and look, there's a decent chance that 90% of it is like, either you remembered it anyways or it doesn't really matter, but man, 10% of that

B (87:49)

stuff, it's pretty legit. So. My dad used to do that, oddly. He'd have a tape recorder, like for real tapes, tape recorder. And I remember me and my brothers will tease each other from time to time, but like, you know, before bed or when we all just happen to be laying around or whatever, you know, this is like the 80s. So it's like you're just laying around, no one's on their phone or nothing, but. And he'd just be just blabbing to us, you know, like, what's this? You know? You know, and I think it was my brother, he told the story about we used to catch toads, little toads and stuff. And when you'd see a mouse, because a. Mice and toads are way different in, in many ways, obviously, but in this way where it's hard to catch a mouse, it's easy to catch a toad, right? So we lifted up this board or he lifted up this board and because he saw a mouse go under there, so he was like, he, he lifted up and he's telling this story as like a. Literally like a six year old kid. And we're listening to it as like kind of young adults, you know, so it's like, wow, that's. It's crazy how this thing happened in this detail and this, it's all captured right there in this little old school. You know those orange cassette tapes on Underfro? They're like, orange. Anyway, so he's like, yeah, I lifted up the. The board real quick and I reached for the mouse, but I didn't grab the mouse because it escaped. And I just grabbed the toad. Because when you lift up board, there's toads under there, too, you know? So he just was telling the story about how he was trying to catch this freaking mouse, which is impossible. And he grabbed the toad.

A (89:21)

Yeah.

B (89:22)

So we still tease each other, but I was like, you know, you just grabbed it because he said in a certain tone, as a little kid, it's the whole thing. But, yeah, it's like. And then, man, you can kind of make your mind go deep inadvertently because it's like, man, that's such a. That was an actual time that happened decades ago. An actual time this person said these actual words, you know, and you were there, you know, kind of a thing otherwise. And it would otherwise be just completely.

A (89:48)

Those things were lost. Yeah.

B (89:49)

Just gone.

A (89:51)

Don't let that happen, man. Write them down.

B (89:55)

I'm writing them down.

A (89:56)

Write them down. That's what we're doing. Speaking of decompression.

B (90:00)

Yep.

A (90:01)

What other things can we do to decompress?

B (90:03)

Wow. You know, maybe some jujits. Yeah. Maybe some lifting.

A (90:06)

Good training today.

B (90:07)

Good training today. It was. It was. It was good training. Look, Look. Sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail. I understand.

A (90:14)

One of those things, huh?

B (90:16)

It's funny because you never say that phrase. You don't never use that expression. Sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail. When you're the hammer, you never say. It'd be weird, too, anyway. But nonetheless, it is funny. So let's just say you heard me say it.

A (90:31)

Yeah.

B (90:31)

I'm here to tell you, sometimes in the hammer, sometimes you're the nail. But a good session overall, you know, because, I mean, let's face it, you know, I trained very sporadically, you know, over the past year or so, whatever, and through that. Actually, last time we trained, it was pretty solid, too, with everybody, but it was like, you know, you get the opportunity to train with these guys really good.

A (90:52)

Yeah.

B (90:52)

Like Kynan and all, you know, these guys. So, yeah, I mean, it was somewhat of an inoculation, for sure. A little. A little something.

A (91:00)

What do you mean, inoculation?

B (91:02)

Did I use that?

A (91:03)

What are you trying to. Yeah. Doesn't really make sense.

B (91:04)

Like, to shock the system, to get you back East. Okay.

A (91:07)

I guess I don't think that's a true inoculation. Maybe like an indoctrination, bro. The funniest thing was when you got done trading with Kainan, you sat against the wall and, like, you had a look on your face that was so funny. And I said, how you doing? Because you did not look like you were doing good.

B (91:32)

No, here's the. You want to know the kind of a little backstory. So I'm sitting with Jeff Glover on the side, right? And I did. I. I did three rounds. Yeah, right. And. And we're usually, we do five. And for some reason, when you're so used to, over the years doing five rounds, now it's six minutes. Five minutes. Now it's six minutes. That extra minute is like, yeah, it kind of can, it can creep up on you. So anyway, I'm. After the three rounds, I'm like, all right. And I was like, probably gonna. I gotta take a rest round, you know, Which I didn't feel too bad because there was other guys doing it too. So I'm like, cool, but I'm sitting next to Jeff Glover and we're, you know, we're talking or whatever. And then Kanan Kynan, sorry, is he was kind of coaching some people, you know, and he looked like. It looked like he maybe would have done the round, you know, but no one, you know, wanted to try. So he was, he was helping out, you know, coaching or whatever. So about halfway through the round, I'm like, ah, let me, Let me get some reps with him. Just light hearted, Finish out the round, no big deal, kind of a thing. So I tell, I express this to Jeff Glover. He's like, he's like, yeah, bro, do it, do it. I'm like, cool. And I'm thinking in my head, even if I'm just getting straight up, body slammed against the freaking concrete, at least it's only for three minutes. You seem Zane. Yeah, it's not the full scene. That was part of the thought process. So I go, I asked him, hey, coach, you know, like, you want to finish the round? He's like, no, no, no, you rest. We'll get the next one

A (92:54)

defeated.

B (92:55)

So I'm like, cool, but, you know, I got a rest. So I'm like, whatever. But it was like a thing. So I go back to Jeff and just. He's just laughing because, you know, we had the conversation beforehand and then, yeah, then you saw, you know, we got some trained. Let's just say I learned, you know, we learned some good, good stuff. And actually, to be honest, like you could tell especially off the first little bit, he was like, okay. Like he was not like trying to kill me, even though he almost did, but you could tell he was like kind of letting me work a little bit at least, so. Which is the mark of a true professional. Yeah, exactly.

A (93:28)

It's always good, man.

B (93:29)

Good training.

A (93:29)

Good training for sure. And that is a good way to, you know, like we got done training and it was just like happiness. Yeah, you know, what's that? Like euphoria. Yeah, euphoria. Euphoria going on. So that's what we're doing with training. When we got done training, I had a hydrate, I had a, a cookie, a milk protein cookie and I had a vanilla ready to drink. And then I cracked open a go because I'm gonna be tired. Yep, same. And that's, that was my immediate like fuel post training. Post training. And by the way, I had a hydrate during training and also I had a go prior to training. So I'm kind of just Jocko fueled up to the gills right now. But that's what you need, man. Need good fuel. Hey, check out Jockey Fuel dot com. Get yourself some good fuel. Get yourself some protein. Ready to drink protein. Get yourself energy, clean energy. Like it's nice that you can, you can have an energy drink and you don't like, sometimes if you take the wrong kind of energy drink for Jiu Jitsu, you're going to die. Like you're gonna free, you're gonna, your heart's going through the roof. It's total chaos. It's crashed, you fall apart. It's a disaster. Jocko Fuel Go is just as good as it's gonna get the hydrate. Same thing, like just the perfect hydration and then get done with a little recovery. Hit that protein. Not to mention joint warfare, I believe is why I'm sitting here right now just getting after it. Joint warfare super co. Check out jockey fuel dot com. You can, you can get it@jockerfuel.com. we're also in like retailers all over the country. So you go into your grocery store, you go into, to your, your supplement store, you go into your local gym, you go into your grocery store. You should have Jocko Fuel there. If you, if you don't have it in there, ask them. We can get it your way, but we want you to have the clean fuel. Jocko Fuel. Check it out. Also, we're training in a full origin.

B (95:30)

Get up.

A (95:31)

By the way, we're training no GI today and I Was wearing a no GI rash guard from Origin usa. I was wearing no GI shorts from Origin usa. The best, the most comfortable, totally good to go and made 100America.

B (95:49)

I saw you noticed my rash guard today.

A (95:52)

Oh, yeah. You did have that custom rash kind of representing.

B (95:55)

That's that origin.

A (95:56)

Yeah. The thing is origin can make some custom rash guards. So if you are interested in that, you can check it out. You know, if you have. If you have an academy and you don't want to have communist rash guards, you can get freedom rash guards. You know what I'm saying? And on top of that, jeans, boots, T shirts, hoodies, anything that you need, jackets, Just everything that you need. Origin USA.com made 100% in America. We are rebuilding the manufacturing in this country. Go to origin USA.com and get some.

B (96:28)

It's true. Also jocastore.com Discipline equals freedom. Apparel and merch. It's not. It's not. It's not the. Like a. Like a giveaway quality. Like this one was. This one.

A (96:40)

Oh, hell no.

B (96:41)

What I'm wearing right now. Discipline equals freedom. Black on black.

A (96:44)

Dude, when you get a giveaway shirt.

B (96:46)

Yeah, yeah. No one's wearing that stuff. Nobody's wearing that stuff. Yeah, exactly. Right. But yeah, this is quality is for real stuff. Apparel. See I'm saying. But anyway. Yes. Black on black. Do you know how we did this? It's not some special process, but it was still deliberate. See what I'm saying? Because usually you can't see the stuff when it's black on black. See what I'm saying? But the black is. Almost has like a little bit of a shine to it. Yes, a little bit.

A (97:08)

Yeah.

B (97:09)

Not gy or tyre.

A (97:11)

Not a. Not. Not a gold plated.

B (97:15)

No, no, no, no, no, no. We're not doing that one. But it's black on black. It's good. So one of the reasons, and people tell me this all the time too, and I did this on purpose. One of the reasons is because sometimes, let's say I go to. Let's say it's a special night, I take my wife, maybe the kids, whatever, out to like a nice steak dinner, you know, But I want to go kind of cash but kind of slick. You see what I'm saying? I'm probably, probably not gonna use the big get after it shirt. You see what I'm saying? At the nice steakhouse. I mean, you can. Don't get it wrong. Do not get it wrong.

A (97:49)

I have.

B (97:51)

There you go. But if you're a little bit concerned about your look you see, I'm saying you wear the black on black. Doing. You're not doing too much with that, you know, that thing. Not too little either, though. See, I'm saying. So you still can represent and look, you know, stylish as well. Anyway, it's a thing and it's, you know, this is of these things, these ideas and concepts are available to you as far as apparel goes on. Jockostore.com there's other stuff on there too, by the way. Got some shorts on there, by the way. Hoodies, all kinds of stuff. Anyway, also the shirt locker subscription scenario, you already know.

A (98:25)

No, but you're saying it anyway.

B (98:26)

People seem to like it. It's a new design every month. It's a good one. A little bit outside the box. More creative, fun, you know, It's a good one. Oh, it's all a Jocko store dot com.

A (98:37)

Also check out some books, Put your leg legs on by Rob Jones. Dave Burke. Need to lead. Check that out. I've written a bunch of books. You can check those out as well. If you need leadership inside your organization, go to echelonfront.com if you need leadership for yourself, you can go to echelonfront.com or you can go to extreme ownership.com and we can train you on the skills of leadership. That's what we do. So check those out. Also, if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, you want help? Gold star families, Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America. Mighty Warriors.org also check out Heroes and Horses.org and Jimmy May's organization, BeyondtheBrotherhood.org if you want to connect with us, check out Jocko.com and then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink Echoes at Echo Charles, just be careful because there's an algorithm on there and it's disgusting. It'll trap you without you knowing it. It's like Sun Tzu. It'll. You won't know that it trapped you, but it did. So pay attention. Also thanks to all Americans, past and present, who put on the uniform to go and fight, especially those overseas right now in the Middle east in harm's way. We thank you for your service and sacrifice and as I mentioned, our veterans that served in World War II and Korea and Vietnam, World War I, all those sacrifices that were made for us. And we thank you all. Also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your service here on the home front and everyone else out there. Just remember that that young Marine in that letter and try and be like him. Tight muscled, working from dawn till dark, often longer. He can dig a foxhole, apply first aid, march until he's told to stop or stop until he's told the march self sufficient. He can do the work of two with less pay and find ironic humor in it all. And he's fighting. He's fighting to make it to age 20. And he's not gonna stop. So be like him and don't stop fighting. That's all I've got for tonight and until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.