Jocko Underground 171: Does Jiu Jitsu Ruin More Lives Than It Saves??

Summary

Jocko Underground Podcast - Episode 171: "Does Jiu Jitsu Ruin More Lives Than It Saves?"

Release Date: June 30, 2025
Hosts: Jocko Willink and Echo Charles
Podcast Description: Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink, and Director Echo Charles delve into topics of discipline and leadership across various facets of life, including business, war, relationships, and everyday challenges.

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1. Introduction and Episode Overview

In Episode 171 of the Jocko Underground Podcast, titled "Does Jiu Jitsu Ruin More Lives Than It Saves?", host Jocko Willink engages in a deep conversation with Echo Charles about the physical toll of practicing Jiu Jitsu. The episode focuses on balancing passion for the sport with the potential risks of injury, providing listeners with actionable advice on how to continue training safely.

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2. Listener’s Concern: The Cost of Jiu Jitsu Training

Timestamp [00:30]: A listener named Jacob reaches out with a heartfelt question about his struggles with injuries sustained from practicing Jiu Jitsu. Jacob shares his dedication to the sport, mentioning his status as a purple belt and the significant financial and physical toll it has taken on him:

Jacob: "I got started in Jiu Jitsu because of your podcast. Currently a purple belt and have dealt with some pretty gnarly injuries including a torn ACL and multi-level disc replacement in my neck. [...] I can't seem to pull myself off the mats and love training maybe more than anything, but can't help but wonder if Craig Jones is right that Jiu Jitsu ruins more lives than it saves."

Jacob's dilemma revolves around whether to continue pursuing his passion despite recurring injuries and mounting medical expenses totaling approximately $20,000.

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3. Host’s Response: Adjusting Training for Longevity

Timestamp [01:32]: Echo Charles responds thoughtfully, acknowledging the complexity of Jacob's situation and offering practical strategies to mitigate further injuries while allowing him to continue training:

Echo Charles: "The answer is yes, you can keep training, but it does sound like your training may need some adjustment. My guess is you need to chill. You probably need to get more chill training partners... Maybe play more games in Jiu Jitsu, maybe a little bit of that ecological approach."

Echo emphasizes the importance of modifying training intensity and techniques. He suggests:

• Slowing Down Training Pace: Reducing the frequency of live rolling sessions to lower the risk of injury.

• Selecting Training Partners Carefully: Associating with more controlled and less aggressive training partners to minimize physical strain.

• Focusing on Technique Over Aggression: Shifting focus from high-intensity submissions to strategic moves like sweeps and positional control.

Echo Charles: "Think about playing some of these ecological games where the goal isn't to submit the other person and rip their head off. The goal is to get the underhooks. The goal is to sweep. Right?"

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4. Emphasizing Overall Physical Conditioning

Timestamp [05:02]: Echo further elaborates on the necessity of comprehensive physical conditioning to support Jiu Jitsu training and prevent injuries. He underscores the importance of strength training and mobility exercises:

Echo Charles: "If you're not lifting, your chance of getting hurt are a liar... You got to lift, you got to work out, you got to train."

Echo advises incorporating a robust fitness regimen that includes:

• Strength Training: Engaging in exercises like squats, deadlifts, and overhead presses to build foundational strength.

• Mobility Work: Implementing stretching protocols and mobility exercises to maintain joint health and flexibility.

• Consistent Progress Monitoring: Tracking progress through measurable fitness metrics to ensure balanced physical development.

He highlights that without such conditioning, the risk of injuries increases not only in Jiu Jitsu but also in everyday activities.

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5. Broader Perspective on Injuries and Activity

Echo provides a broader context by illustrating that injuries can occur regardless of the activity level, emphasizing personal responsibility in maintaining physical health:

Echo Charles: "ACLs get blown out, neck issues happen, shoulder injuries happen. And that's regardless if you're doing Jiu jitsu, playing basketball, playing soccer, anything... if you're not getting her [training], that is a little."

Echo's perspective reinforces the idea that while Jiu Jitsu carries inherent risks, many injuries are preventable through proper training and conditioning.

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6. Conclusion: Balancing Passion with Prudence

Echo concludes by reiterating the importance of balancing one's passion for Jiu Jitsu with the necessary precautions to ensure long-term health and sustainability in the sport:

Echo Charles: "I love Jiu Jitsu. I absolutely love Jiu Jitsu. But if it meant I couldn't work out, couldn't surf, couldn't ski, couldn't run... there's a point where that rest of that physical activity I want to be able to do so."

He encourages practitioners to adopt a disciplined approach to training, emphasizing that adjustments and self-awareness can allow continued enjoyment of Jiu Jitsu without debilitating injuries.

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7. Additional Notes

The episode briefly touches upon the promotion of the Jocko Underground platform, encouraging listeners to subscribe for more in-depth content and community support. However, as per the summary guidelines, promotional segments are noted but not elaborated upon in detail.

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Notable Quotes:

• Echo Charles [01:32]: "Think about playing some of these ecological games where the goal isn't to submit the other person and rip their head off."

• Echo Charles [05:02]: "If you're not lifting, your chance of getting hurt are a liar."

• Echo Charles [05:39]: "Do you have a stretching protocol? Because if you don't, you need to have one. Are you lifting? Because if you don't, you need to be."

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Key Takeaways:

1. Adjust Training Intensity: Reducing high-impact practices can help mitigate injury risks while maintaining involvement in Jiu Jitsu.

2. Selective Partnering: Choosing training partners who match one's skill and intensity levels is crucial for safety.

3. Comprehensive Conditioning: Integrating strength training and mobility exercises is essential for preventing injuries and enhancing performance.

4. Balanced Approach: Passion for Jiu Jitsu should be harmonized with prudent health practices to ensure long-term participation and enjoyment.

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This episode serves as a valuable resource for Jiu Jitsu practitioners grappling with injuries, offering insightful advice on how to enjoy the sport sustainably without compromising one's health and well-being.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jonko Underground podcast number 171, sitting here with Echo Charles, getting ready to answer some of your questions and provide courses of actions, things to consider, perhaps some immediate actions to take to send you down the path in a very positive way. So let's get to it.

[B]

Before I read this, can I tell you that I wish I had this outfit when I was younger.

[A]

Yeah, you and me both would have helped.

[B]

All right. Hi Jacob. I love the podcast. I've been a long time listener. I got started in Jiu Jitsu because of your podcast. Currently a purple belt and have dealt with some pretty gnarly injuries including a torn ACL and multi level disc replacement in my neck. Every time I get injured, everyone tells me I need to quit and the argument makes sense. I lose time from work and training and when I get or when I get injured. I also have spent at probably $20,000 on medical bills between surgeries, PT and other ways of recovering from Jiu Jitsu. Can't seem to pull myself off the mats and love training maybe more than anything, but can't help but wonder if Craig Jones is right that Jiu Jitsu ruins more lives than it saves. Should I stay on the mats and keep training or find more find a more safe activity? If I stay, how should I change my training? I love working stand up, but wondering if I should become a guard puller.

[A]

Well, so there's a lot of variables here that we don't have. All of them. Because we don't. Yeah, there's some details missing, but you know what, we can make some assumptions or provide some overall guidance. First of all, can you keep training? The answer is yes, you can keep training, but it does sound like your training may need some adjustment. My guess is this is an assumption. My guess is you need to chill. That's my guess. My guess is you need to chill. You probably need to get more chill training partners. My guess is you need to drill more and train, roll live a little less. Maybe play more games in Jiu Jitsu, maybe a little bit of that ecological approach, maybe. Yes, absolutely, become a guard puller. But more important, don't train a bunch of stand up because your chances of getting hurt increased quite a bit. Adjust your game to protect your neck. You know that inverted roll that you do, you know that, that sacrifice that you make, getting your head pulled when you go under for the deep half guard and all that. Got to make some adjustments to your game. So those are my immediate thoughts right now. If you are already super chill and you already rolled protect your neck, and you already don't do stand up, and you already don't roll hard, and you just. And you're still getting hurt this much. You need to take all that stuff down another level now. Maybe you're just learning the techniques, right? I've had people over the years that did not train Jiu Jitsu, but they learned the techniques. They couldn't train Jiu Jitsu for a variety of reasons. Maybe they had, you know, whatever, just a variety of reasons. They can't actually train, they can't actually roll. They want to know the moves, they appreciate the game, and so they learn Jiu Jitsu. You could get to a point where that happens. Would that be hard for a Jiu Jitsu junkie like you to, you know, do that and keep off the match? Yeah, but also. But if the. If the alternative is being all dinged up, then, yeah, we can't do anything else. I love Jiu Jitsu. I absolutely love Jiu Jitsu. But if it meant I couldn't, like, work out, couldn't surf, couldn't ski, couldn't, Couldn't run, you know, like, there's a point where that rest of that physical activity I want to be able to do so. But again, I don't think I'll ever have to make that sacrifice because I think I can train in a way that I don't have to sacrifice my body. So that's what I would think about. I would think about chilling more out, thinking about using more technique out. Think about playing some of these ecological games where the goal isn't to submit the other person and rip their head off. The goal is to get the underhooks. The goal is to sweep. Right? The goal is to get the sweep. The goal is to not get swept. The goal is to get the. The. The inside leg entanglement. Like what? Play some games and have some fun. You don't have to freaking go crazy every time. And then, yeah, if you're training a bunch of stand up and you've already been injured, you've already hurt your acl, it might be time to chill on the stand up a little bit. What did I miss?

[B]

Echo Charles, to be honest, I don't know if I could put it better, that chill part, because in a nutshell, that's really.

[A]

And chill training partners. Yep.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, maybe. I mean, it is hard to avoid training partners mentally. You know, when someone asks to roll and then you say no to one guy and. And then 30 seconds later you say yes to this other guy. It's like that. I understand that. That's a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. Until you get injured a bunch and you're like, you know what, dude? I'm not training with this dude. Like, you let your ego go. Yeah, you, hey, look, you don't like me, Cool. You know, I got hurt with you twice and I'm not doing it anymore.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's real.

[A]

There's another little note that I have here, which is you there. There's. I've known people that have never trained Jiu jitsu a day in their life and got neck surgery with, you know, disc replacements or fusions. Never trained Jiu jitsu. I've known people that have never done anything active, didn't play football, didn't play rugby, and got disc replacements in their neck. Disc replacements in their lower back, fusion in their lower back, fusion in their neck. I've known people that played soccer, basketball, surfing, squash, tennis, bag mitten, just any sport that got ACL surgery. I've known people that got ACL surgery after they got out of the car and stepped funny on the curb after they stepped on the dog toy when was walking down the stairs at night. Like, there are things that happen now. In my opinion, I don't know how much this dude is lifting and doing mobility because if you're not lifting, your chance of getting hurt are a liar. That's. That's across the board. That's getting out of your car, stepping on the curb. That's, that's stepping on the dog toy. That's playing a pickup game of basketball. If you don't lift weights and you don't do pull ups, press push ups, dips and squats and deadlifts and overhead presses and overhead squats and, you know, and kettle bell swings and snatches. If you're not doing these things, your body ain't ready for this. And I, I'll tell you what, dude. I can tell you, like, this is fresh in my mind. I did squats today. Getting under the bar right now. Getting just, just getting the shoulders warmed up. I used to not even think about you get under the bar, do a squat. But right now there's a, There is a 1 minute to 90 second stretch to get in position, you know, to get loosened up, to get in position under the bar for a regular squat. If so, if I wasn't doing that, when would my shoulders get stretched out? When I got freaking put in an Americana or when I got put in a, in a Camura? That's when I would get Stretched. So you have to keep moving in order to keep moving. Thanks, Dr. Luke, on that one, right? You've got to keep moving. If you're going to keep moving to. To just do Jiu Jitsu, you can get away with it when you're 20. You can get away with your 25, but you're not going to get away with it when you're 29 and 32 and 35 and 40 and 42 and 47 and 50 and 53. You got to lift, you got to work out, you got to train. So interestingly in this question, unless I missed it, nowhere does he say, I train Jiu Jitsu, I lift, I do calisthenics, I do sun salutation every morning, and I measure my progress. You know what I'm saying? I'm not seeing that in here. Makes me a little bit nervous. Are you. Do have. Do you have a stretching protocol? Because if you don't, you need to have one. Are you lifting? Because if you don't, you need to be. If you haven't, you need to start. So I will throw those out there. But all that being said, ACLs get blown out, neck issues happen, shoulder injuries happen. And that's regardless if you're doing Jiu jitsu, playing basketball, playing soccer, anything picking up your kid, throwing your kid up in the air, Boom. Oh, turn my. Tore my labrum. That stuff happens to people, especially people that ain't getting her. That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are. We're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground dot com. It cost $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistancecleunderground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized. Underground.