Jocko Underground: Accept That The People Around You May Not Want To Do Their Best

Summary

---

Jocko Underground Podcast #185 — Accept That The People Around You May Not Want To Do Their Best

Host: Jocko Willink
Co-Host: Echo Charles
Date: October 13, 2025
Theme: Discipline, leadership, and managing expectations in professional and personal environments.

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into a core frustration for many high achievers and leaders: dealing with varying motivation and performance levels within a team—specifically, accepting that some people simply don't strive for excellence as fervently as others. Jocko Willink and Echo Charles address a listener’s question from a high school principal struggling with this reality among his staff and discuss practical leadership approaches for navigating this perennial challenge. The conversation focuses on understanding the bell curve of performance, investing efficiently in team members, and managing expectations, all while avoiding judgment and burnout.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reality of the Performance Bell Curve

(01:15–02:55)

• Every organization has a bell curve: a top 10% of high performers, a large middle group, and a bottom 10%.
• “There’s a bell curve in the world. There’s a bell curve in any organization. You got your top performers... then you got the whole big middle area, and then there’s the bottom 10%.” — Jocko (01:23)
• Even in the most elite environments, like Navy SEAL teams, this distribution exists.

2. How Leaders Should Respond

(02:56–04:50)

• Keep setting the example and pursuing excellence yourself; don’t let mediocre attitudes drag you down.
• Invest more energy into the top and middle performers, finding ways to mentor and elevate them.
• Don’t abandon the bottom 10%, but also don’t expend disproportionate energy trying to “save” them.
• “You also can’t, like, expend a bunch of energy trying to get them to freaking get on board with being, like, a better performer because they’re getting their paycheck.” — Jocko (03:42)

3. Influence vs. Judgment

(04:51–06:33)

• Building relationships with team members is key: use trust, listening, respect, influence, and care rather than judgments or ultimatums.
• Ask sincere, open-ended questions—reflect on what people want from their careers and how you can support them.
• Accept that not everyone shares your ambitions or interests. Don’t allow their lack of enthusiasm to dilute your own.

4. Perspective and Compassion

(05:34–07:45)

• Everyone cares about different things; your passion may not resonate with everyone (e.g., being a black belt in jiu-jitsu may mean little to others).
• Avoid projecting your values and expectations; recognize that fulfillment looks different for everyone.
• “One man’s triumph is another person’s like, ‘We don’t give a shit.’” — Jocko (06:04)
• “There’s more to life than just freaking, like, making sure you got this report okay... A lot of people... their approach to life is, ‘There’s more to life than this job.’” — Echo (07:28)

5. Be Fired Up—But Don’t Demand Others Match Your Energy

(07:45–08:32)

• It’s great to love what you do, and it’s healthy to support others’ passions—even if you don’t share them.
• Problems arise when leaders expect everyone to share the same level of enthusiasm or take it personally when they don’t.
• “Don’t be like, hey, you should be in my lane, too. And if you’re not, like, I’m angry.” — Echo (08:27)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Welcome to reality. This is a reality right here. There’s a bell curve.” — Jocko (01:15)
• “Check in with [the bottom 10%] periodically. But you also can’t, like, expend a bunch of energy…” — Jocko (03:36)
• “You build a relationship with them. That's what this boils down to: trust, listen, respect, influence and care.” — Jocko (04:18)
• “One man's triumph is another person's like, 'We don't give a shit.'” — Jocko (06:04)
• “Don’t be that person in a judgmental way. Be fired up, hell, yeah—all day in. But don’t be like, ‘you should be in my lane, too.’” — Echo (08:26)

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:18] Listener question: Leading high performers vs. the mediocre in a school staff
• [01:15] The universal bell curve in organizations
• [02:55] Investment strategy for different performance tiers
• [04:18] Building relationships and influence, not judgment
• [06:04] On differing personal values and achievements
• [07:28] Life priorities beyond work (Echo’s perspective)
• [08:26] Avoiding judgment and misplaced expectations

---

Summary

Jocko and Echo’s discussion offers practical, hard-earned wisdom for any leader or individual frustrated by mediocrity in their environment. Their advice: accept the reality of performance variation, invest your energy strategically, and support without judgment. Stay inspired, maintain high standards, and—above all—lead by example, knowing you can’t force others to share your drive.

---

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 185, sitting here with Echo Charles. You all have sent us some questions from the field and we will provide you with some guidance, some recommendations, some answers, or at a minimum, some possible courses of actions that you can follow. So here we go, let's get into it.

[B]

Here we go. First question. I'm a high school principal. I spent the last decade working towards being the best version of myself. Reading, lifting, training, and eliminating most anything that is not productive to my quest to achieve personal excellence. Where I struggle as a leader is watching others around me be okay with mediocrity. Their lack of desire to improve daily fuels me to be the best, the very best I can be. But frustrates me that I see so much more in them than they see in themselves. Do I continue to keep my foot on the gas in an effort to influence them, to see they are just floating through life, or do I accept that 10% of my staff going to fall short of my expectations of them and the true potential they have as educators and leaders in my school? Keep the rad designs coming for the shirt locker tees. Thank you.

[A]

And he says that 10% of his staff is about, of his staff is about 10 to 12 people. So welcome to reality. This is, this is a reality right here. There's a bell curve. There's a bell curve in the world. There's a bell curve in any organization. You got your top performer formers, you got like that top 10% of the top performers. And then you got the whole big middle area of the bell curve. And there's people that are like, do a little bit better in the middle of the bell curve and people that do a little bit worse in the middle of the bell curve. And then there's the bottom 10%.

[B]

And.

[A]

That'S just the way it is in. And everyone thinks like in the most elite places that. No, in a SEAL platoon, there's a bell curve. In a SEAL team, there's a bell curve. In any organization there's a bell curve. And you got some front running pipe hitters at the top end that are crushing. You got the middle people that are doing their job to varying levels and then you got some turds. So what should you do? I mean, first of all, your question is, do I continue to keep my foot on the gas? Yes. In an effort to influence them. Yes. To see they're floating through life. Well, who, you know, doesn't matter. That shouldn't affect the way you're getting after it. Right. So I think you're good there. Keep getting after it. We know that. Listen, I would invest, you know, invest in the top performers. You know, how much can you help them? How can you help them grow even more? Because they're getting after it. How can you make the middle performers into top performers? And I wouldn't, you know, I'm not going to abandon the bottom 10%. I just don't write them off and never think about them again. But I recognize, like, okay, I'll check in with them. Well, you know, once a quarter. Once a quarter, you know, maybe. Hey, you still. You still good to go? Hey, did you want to. Did you want to hit? You know, think about that. You know, running that thing for the school council or whatever. No, it's just extra collateral duty. Do you get paid for it? Well, no, you don't get paid, but it's gonna give you some good experience. I don't wanna do it. Okay, cool. You see what I'm saying? But maybe after three years, you go, hey, you wanna run that little student council thing? There's no pay for it, as, you know, but other teachers, you know, taking over this other project. So if you wanna do it, and maybe in three years, they go, yeah, you know, I wouldn't mind doing that. You know, so you don't abandon them. Check in with them periodically. But you also can't, like, expend a bunch of energy trying to get them to freaking get on board with being, like, a better performer because they're getting their paycheck. This happens in every industry. Every industry. Oh, these people, they just collect a paycheck and they don't really care.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Cool. Welcome. That's the way the world is. Also, don't get frustrated about this. Like, you can't get frustrated. It's just the way people are. It's the phase of their life. You can ask them earnest questions. You can try and influence them. Listen, you can't go, would you want to be a loser? Nope. They'll be like, I'm not a freaking loser.

[B]

Screw you.

[A]

The principle sucks. You know what I'm saying? You build a relationship with them. That's what this boils down to. Build a relationship with them. Trust, listen, respect, influence and care. And if you do that and you ask earnest questions, earnest questions, where do you think you're going to be in 10 years? That's not an earnest question. It's like, hey, do you love teaching in the classroom so much that that's kind of what you want to do for your whole career? And they might say, yeah, actually it is. And you go, okay, cool. And they might say, well, I think so. And then three weeks later or three months later, they go, you know, you asked me if I always wanted to be in the classroom. I was thinking about it and, and I do, but I think I want to do it, you know, I think I want to eventually get into becoming a college professor. Oh, so you got to go take some more classes, you know, and all of a sudden you got, you know, so do that and do your best to help the people out, but don't over invest in them. That's kind of what I got. You know, this is life. This is the way people are. You going to find them no matter where you are. Don't let them hold you back, but. And don't let them uninspire you to keep getting after and keep setting an awesome example and build relationships with them. Build relationships with them. That's what we're doing across the board.

[B]

It seems like you do a good job of in these situations because I see, you know, you can kind of see it not, you know. Well, I think I do anyway. But you do. It comes off to me that you do a good job of not judging people who are like, not perform, you know, not getting after it as hard as maybe the next guy or whatever.

[A]

Don't, bro. Because people are interested in different things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, you know, what's the one man trash another man's treasure.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Well, one man's triumph is another person's like, we don't give a shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, have you ever told someone, like, I'm a jiu jitsu black belt? They're like, no, I don't think, like, what is that? But like in their mind, they're literally thinking karate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're thinking Rex Kwondo. They're like, whatever, dude.

[B]

Yeah. My eight year old son has a black belt too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, oh, yeah, yeah. My nine year old just got his black belt. You guys are the same now. But like, it's true that with everything, right?

[B]

Yeah, you're right.

[A]

Like, well, you know, I spent 20 years in the military. Oh, cool. Whatever, you know. Mm. Oh, I, I wrote some books. Oh. I wrote a New York Times bestseller. Oh, well, I don't care, you know, so when someone is not interested in stuff that I'm interested in, it doesn't like, I, I, I 100% expect that. And I don't think that anything that I've done is like, ooh, look what I did.

[B]

Yeah. And you can't help but because I've been in a situation where actually pretty.

[A]

Recently, dude, I barely created. I have a black belt. I wrote books. You know what I mean? Like, I don't really care, but I've.

[B]

Been in a situation on the other side of things where I'm like, bro, it's. It's not that serious, bro. And you can tell, like, this person's really into what's going on. Like, and I'm. And it's just right on the front of my mind as if this is. My feeling was like, bro, life is way bigger than this thing, you know, kind of a thing. And the thing is, that can be true for anything. Even if you're at work, literally at work, what you do for a quote, unquote, living. There's more to life than this job. And a lot of people are in a position and just their opinion of life, their approach to life. There's more to life than just freaking, like, making sure you got this report okay.

[A]

You know, so actually, I'm going to, like, I'm the opposite of you there because I'm kind of like, dude, that's awesome. Like, good job, good job. When someone's really into what they're doing, whatever it is, I'm kind of stoked for.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And again, I'm not saying that part isn't the part I'm talking about. I'm just saying if someone's too into it and having this expectation. Expectation onto you, that you should be into it the same way I am.

[A]

It's. It.

[B]

You'll have a big disconnect there. It's not, you know, it's not constructive, you know, so don't be that person in a judgmental way. See what I'm saying? Hey, be fired up.

[A]

Hell, yeah.

[B]

All day in. You know, but don't be like, hey, you should be in my lane, too. And if you're not, like, I'm angry.

[A]

We don't beef, and we got beef, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

There's all kinds of. You know, that's. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground.com it costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistance@jocko underground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized. Underground.