Jocko Underground Podcast #185 — Accept That The People Around You May Not Want To Do Their Best

Host: Jocko Willink
Co-Host: Echo Charles
Date: October 13, 2025
Theme: Discipline, leadership, and managing expectations in professional and personal environments.

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into a core frustration for many high achievers and leaders: dealing with varying motivation and performance levels within a team—specifically, accepting that some people simply don't strive for excellence as fervently as others. Jocko Willink and Echo Charles address a listener’s question from a high school principal struggling with this reality among his staff and discuss practical leadership approaches for navigating this perennial challenge. The conversation focuses on understanding the bell curve of performance, investing efficiently in team members, and managing expectations, all while avoiding judgment and burnout.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reality of the Performance Bell Curve

(01:15–02:55)

• Every organization has a bell curve: a top 10% of high performers, a large middle group, and a bottom 10%.
• “There’s a bell curve in the world. There’s a bell curve in any organization. You got your top performers... then you got the whole big middle area, and then there’s the bottom 10%.” — Jocko (01:23)
• Even in the most elite environments, like Navy SEAL teams, this distribution exists.

2. How Leaders Should Respond

(02:56–04:50)

• Keep setting the example and pursuing excellence yourself; don’t let mediocre attitudes drag you down.
• Invest more energy into the top and middle performers, finding ways to mentor and elevate them.
• Don’t abandon the bottom 10%, but also don’t expend disproportionate energy trying to “save” them.
• “You also can’t, like, expend a bunch of energy trying to get them to freaking get on board with being, like, a better performer because they’re getting their paycheck.” — Jocko (03:42)

3. Influence vs. Judgment

(04:51–06:33)

• Building relationships with team members is key: use trust, listening, respect, influence, and care rather than judgments or ultimatums.
• Ask sincere, open-ended questions—reflect on what people want from their careers and how you can support them.
• Accept that not everyone shares your ambitions or interests. Don’t allow their lack of enthusiasm to dilute your own.

4. Perspective and Compassion

(05:34–07:45)

• Everyone cares about different things; your passion may not resonate with everyone (e.g., being a black belt in jiu-jitsu may mean little to others).
• Avoid projecting your values and expectations; recognize that fulfillment looks different for everyone.
• “One man’s triumph is another person’s like, ‘We don’t give a shit.’” — Jocko (06:04)
• “There’s more to life than just freaking, like, making sure you got this report okay... A lot of people... their approach to life is, ‘There’s more to life than this job.’” — Echo (07:28)

5. Be Fired Up—But Don’t Demand Others Match Your Energy

(07:45–08:32)

• It’s great to love what you do, and it’s healthy to support others’ passions—even if you don’t share them.
• Problems arise when leaders expect everyone to share the same level of enthusiasm or take it personally when they don’t.
• “Don’t be like, hey, you should be in my lane, too. And if you’re not, like, I’m angry.” — Echo (08:27)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Welcome to reality. This is a reality right here. There’s a bell curve.” — Jocko (01:15)
• “Check in with [the bottom 10%] periodically. But you also can’t, like, expend a bunch of energy…” — Jocko (03:36)
• “You build a relationship with them. That's what this boils down to: trust, listen, respect, influence and care.” — Jocko (04:18)
• “One man's triumph is another person's like, 'We don't give a shit.'” — Jocko (06:04)
• “Don’t be that person in a judgmental way. Be fired up, hell, yeah—all day in. But don’t be like, ‘you should be in my lane, too.’” — Echo (08:26)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:18] Listener question: Leading high performers vs. the mediocre in a school staff
• [01:15] The universal bell curve in organizations
• [02:55] Investment strategy for different performance tiers
• [04:18] Building relationships and influence, not judgment
• [06:04] On differing personal values and achievements
• [07:28] Life priorities beyond work (Echo’s perspective)
• [08:26] Avoiding judgment and misplaced expectations

Summary

Jocko and Echo’s discussion offers practical, hard-earned wisdom for any leader or individual frustrated by mediocrity in their environment. Their advice: accept the reality of performance variation, invest your energy strategically, and support without judgment. Stay inspired, maintain high standards, and—above all—lead by example, knowing you can’t force others to share your drive.