Jocko Underground: How Long Would You Fight To Save Your Marriage?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jocko Underground – "How Long Would You Fight To Save Your Marriage?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Jocko Underground
• Episode: How Long Would You Fight To Save Your Marriage?
• Release Date: March 31, 2025
• Hosts: Retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink and Echo Charles
• Description: Jocko Willink and Echo Charles delve into the principles of discipline and leadership as they apply to various facets of life, including business, war, relationships, and everyday challenges.

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Introduction

In episode 160 of the Jocko Underground podcast, hosts Jocko Willink and Echo Charles address a poignant listener question regarding marital struggles and the determination required to preserve a marriage. The discussion navigates the complexities of relationship dynamics, the importance of alignment between partners, and the strategies to reclaim and strengthen a deteriorating marriage.

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Listener's Dilemma: Fighting to Save a Marriage

A listener reaches out with a heartfelt inquiry:

Listener's Question:
"How long would you fight to save your marriage from divorce if you felt like the other person wasn't trying? My wife acts completely different than she used to. In my mind, she's having a midlife crisis. After 15 years of supporting me and my military service, my wife became fed up and started focusing on her own happiness, which didn't include me. She took control of her life, but doesn't want a divorce, probably because of our three kids. She's 44 and goes out about twice a month, sometimes late. She stopped inviting me places—Halloween parties, concerts, hockey games, even on our dates, she brought a friend. I've worked on her complaints: texting more, bringing her coffee, being more thoughtful. But after two years, it hasn't helped. Marriage counseling feels like complaining in circles. I believe most women would be happy with me, but she's jaded from years of what she sees as neglect. I still want to fight for this marriage. She cries sometimes, so I know she still cares. Jiu jitsu, which I started six months ago, is my main source of happiness right now."

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Breaking Down the Response

1. Taking Ownership and Accountability

Jocko Willink emphasizes the foundational step of ownership in addressing marital issues:

Jocko [00:17]: "Take ownership of what you did wrong in the past."

Echo concurs, highlighting the importance of full responsibility:

Echo [11:47]: "Full ownership, full execution of the principles."

Key Points:

• Acknowledge past shortcomings without deflecting blame.
• Demonstrate commitment to rectifying previous neglect through consistent actions.

2. Applying Combat Leadership Principles to Relationships

Jocko draws parallels between military leadership and marital harmony, introducing several key principles:

• Cover and Move: Support each other’s endeavors and responsibilities.

  Jocko [00:53]: "If she wants to go out, I'll cover for you tonight."

• Keep It Simple: Focus on mutual priorities, especially when children are involved.

  Jocko [01:05]: "Keep things simple, like we have kids to take care of."

• Prioritize and Execute: Align on what matters most and act decisively.

• Decentralized Command: Empower each family member to contribute effectively.

Key Points:

• Utilize structured leadership strategies to manage household responsibilities and relationship dynamics.
• Maintain clear communication and mutual support to foster a cohesive family unit.

3. Conducting an Alignment Check

A critical component of the discussion centers on alignment between partners’ long-term visions:

Jocko [04:22]: "Alignment check is the biggest deal, actually, in a business partnership, in a military scenario, and certainly in a marriage."

Echo elaborates on determining whether both partners share the same future goals:

Echo [08:15]: "If you want to be a couple and she wants a business arrangement, that's not a marriage to me."

Key Points:

• Assess whether both partners desire the same end state in the relationship.
• Recognize when fundamental differences in goals render the relationship unsustainable.
• Facilitate honest conversations to uncover each partner’s true aspirations and concerns.

4. Navigating Short-Term Desires vs. Long-Term Goals

The hosts discuss the challenge of reconciling immediate desires with overarching relationship objectives:

Jocko [06:45]: "She might be focused on short-term desires because she missed out on personal growth while supporting a military spouse."

Echo [09:30]: "Stick to the basics to improve the chance of things working out."

Key Points:

• Understand that temporary wants may stem from long-term sacrifices made during the marriage.
• Encourage personal growth and fulfillment as pathways to enriching the relationship.
• Balance individual aspirations with collective relationship goals to foster mutual satisfaction.

5. Handling Arguments Constructively

Echo offers insights into managing conflicts without escalating tensions:

Echo [12:07]: "Don't look at it as an argument to win. Look at it as a tangled web to unravel."

Jocko agrees, reinforcing the importance of constructive conflict resolution:

Jocko [12:50]: "Don't try to win the argument; focus on understanding and solving the problem."

Key Points:

• Approach disagreements with the intention to understand rather than to dominate.
• Foster an environment where both partners feel heard and valued.
• Utilize conflicts as opportunities for growth and deeper understanding rather than battlegrounds.

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Practical Steps to Save the Marriage

1. Take Responsibility:

   • Recognize and admit past neglect or mistakes.
   • Show genuine commitment to change through consistent actions.

2. Conduct an Alignment Assessment:

   • Have open discussions about each partner’s long-term desires and goals.
   • Determine if both partners envision the same future together.

3. Apply Leadership Principles:

   • Implement strategies like cover and move, prioritize and execute within the relationship.
   • Ensure that both partners are contributing to the household and relationship harmoniously.

4. Foster Personal Growth:

   • Support each other’s individual aspirations and self-improvement efforts.
   • Encourage activities and pursuits that enhance personal fulfillment and, by extension, the relationship.

5. Manage Conflicts Effectively:

   • Address disagreements calmly and constructively.
   • Focus on resolving issues rather than winning arguments.

6. Evaluate the Future Path Together:

   • Decide whether to continue fighting for the marriage based on mutual alignment.
   • If misalignment persists, consider amicable separation focused on fairness and respect.

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Echo’s Perspective on Relationship Diversity

Echo highlights the uniqueness of each relationship, emphasizing that while foundational principles are vital, solutions must be tailored:

Echo [10:53]: "Every relationship is different in literally infinite ways."

Key Points:

• Acknowledge that generic advice may need personalization to fit specific relationship dynamics.
• Encourage flexibility and adaptation of principles to suit individual circumstances.
• Recognize and respect the distinctiveness of each partner’s experiences and needs.

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Conclusion

In this episode of Jocko Underground, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles provide a robust framework for addressing marital challenges. By advocating for ownership, alignment, structured communication, and constructive conflict resolution, they offer actionable insights for individuals striving to salvage and strengthen their marriages. The discussion underscores the importance of shared goals and mutual support, while also acknowledging the complexities and unique nature of each relationship.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jocko Willink [04:22]: "Alignment check is the biggest deal, actually, in a business partnership, in a military scenario, and certainly in a marriage."

• Echo Charles [12:07]: "Don't look at it as an argument to win. Look at it as a tangled web to unravel."

• Jocko Willink [00:17]: "Take ownership of what you did wrong in the past."

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For listeners seeking to delve deeper into these topics, consider subscribing to the Jocko Underground podcast for more in-depth discussions on leadership, discipline, and personal growth within various aspects of life.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 160, sitting here with Echo, Charles, and a stack of questions from the troopers. So let's get into it.

[Echo Charles]

Hopefully helpful life advice, by the way.

[Jocko Willink]

Oh, there's definitely some good life advice today.

[Echo Charles]

Right on. Okay. I. Echo and Jock, you both seem to be pretty good husbands. How long would you fight to save your marriage from divorce if you felt like the other person wasn't trying? My wife acts completely different than she used to. In my mind, she's having a midlife crisis. After 15 years of supporting me and my military service, my wife became fed up and started focusing on her own happiness, which didn't include me. She took control of her life, but doesn't want a divorce, probably because of our three kids. She's 44 and goes out about twice a month, sometimes late. She. She stopped inviting me places. Halloween parties, concerts, hockey games, even. Even on our dates, she brought a friend. I've worked on her complaints. Texting more, bringing her coffee, being more thoughtful. But after two years, it hasn't helped. Marriage counseling feels like complaining in circles. I believe most women would be happy with me, but she's jaded from years of what she sees as neglect. I still want to fight for this marriage. She cries sometimes, so I know she still cares. Jiu jitsu, which I started six months ago, is my main source of happiness right now.

[Jocko Willink]

Check. So what are we gonna do here? How long we fight? Okay, first of all, it's something, you know, take ownership of, you know, what did you do wrong in the past? Sounds like you're taking ownership of that you're trying to fix some of the shortfalls that you had. We, obviously, we enact the laws of combat leadership. We cover and move. We keep things simple. We prioritize and execute. We use decentralized command to kind of keep our family unit operating well, as a team, we make sure that our ego is in check. These are kind of the things that we hope that you've already done. Right? So cover and move, meaning. Okay, you want to go out? Look, okay, I'll cover for you tonight. Or like, simple, like, hey, we're going to keep things simple, like, like, we got kids to take care of. Okay, cool. Yep. We get that. Prioritize. Next to you, priorities are going change. Sometimes we make sure we're focused on the same things. Decentralized command. You know, are the kids stepping up and helping with things? Are we. Are we doing a good. Does everyone understand why they're doing what they're doing? So those. Those Things and there's already going check. Once all that stuff is done, we got. And we. We haven't made progress. Now we have to do something. We have to do an alignment check. And this is a very, very big deal. The very big deal. Alignment check is the biggest deal, actually, in a business partnership, in a military scenario, and certainly in a marriage. What does she want? Where does she want to be? Where do you want to be? Where does she want to be in the future? Are you in that picture as a husband and everything that being a husband, you know, encompasses? And if she can say, listen, yes, I want to be married. I want you to be my husband. Not just to be married, because I guess if you could. If you're in some kind of a weird, like, where you're just kind of financially connected, but you don't sleep in the same bedroom and she's out there with other dudes and like me, that's not a marriage. Right? That's a. That's not a marriage to me. If you want. If she want. And you're not a husband. You're just a person that's, you know, it's a business arrangement. And if the business arrangement is like, she's like, oh, you look, we got kids. I want our kids to grow up with two parents. And I'm still going to. I'm going to go out. I don't love you. I don't want to sleep in the same room with you, but I want to live in the same house, and I want to present. And you go, okay, well, if that's your goal and. And you can accept that, okay, now we're. At least we're. No, we're going the same place. That's alignment. Hopefully. Alignment is. She goes, yeah, you know what I want? I see myself growing old with you as my husband. I want to get, you know, our kids raised together. I want to, you know, sleep in the same room with you every night. I want you to be my husband. Be husband. I want to be your wife. Right. If you can get aligned to figure out where. Where it is that makes sure you're actually both going to the same place, you can. And you can accept it. You'll be fine. You'll like. If it's a business arrangement, it's a business arrangement. Hey, listen, we're gonna stay together until the kids get older. Once they're out of the house, we'll move her on separate ways. Okay, cool. I'm down with that. Okay. Or you know what? I'm going through rough patch Right now I'm a little bit resentful because the way you treated me in the past, but I want to. I want, you know, I want to be a couple. Okay? We can work through it. The problem comes if you're not actually aligned. That's where we can have a problem. Because if you're not aligned, you're trying to be two places at the same time, and that it doesn't work. It's against the laws of physics. You cannot, you cannot. She cannot want to have a business arrangement where you both live together, but you're not actually a couple. If that's what she wants, but you actually want to be a couple. You can't. This isn't going to work. It's not going to work. So that's what we need to do. You need to figure out if you're aligned or not. Now here's where another little problematic scenario is. She might not have any idea where her long term strategic goals, right? She might say, where do you want to be in five years? And she goes, I don't know. Okay? She might be focused right now on the short term desires and goals and little feelings that she has, right? Because you ignored her for 15 years. She missed out on, you know, her ages of being 23 to whatever, 38. And those were prime years for her to go out and party. And she didn't do it because she was at home with the kids. And now she's feeling like she missed it. Now she wants it. So she's got a little short term. Like, I want to go. What was it like? I missed it all. I was sitting at home alone, right? So she might have some of that, but you've got. Or maybe she's like, oh, I'm just sick of you and you bother me and you. Okay. Or I was focused on the kids. Like, whatever short term things she might have going on right now, you got to punch through that and get to like, what is the long term? Where do you want to be? Where do you want to be? I get it. I blew you off and I wasn't a good husband. And you, I was paying attention, more attention to the military than I was to you. And, and you want to go out and get a little, get a little bit of your, your expressiveness as a young woman out there. I get it. When you're done with that, where do you want to be? Now look, if you, if you're gonna go out and party with your friends, you're gonna see what it's like, okay? And you're gonna come back to me, okay? I don't like it. But we're go. We're trying to get to the same place. If her idea is like, she wants to go out and mingle around with a bunch of other dudes or other dudes, and it's kind of game over, right? Because now we're not husband and wife anymore. We took vows. That, that, that's not acceptable. So if that's what she wants, that could be a real problem. Now we're not aligned. But maybe she just wants freaking adult, like human life, right? Maybe she wants some friends. She didn't have any friends. Maybe she wants to be self centered for a while, which I could understand. She's been a military wife, which means she was not able to focus on herself ever. She wasn't able to focus on her own career ever. She wasn't able to focus on her own health and fitness ever. She wasn't able to focus on her own looks. She wasn't able to focus on having fun with other adult humans at any time. So for her to be like, you know what, dude, I actually want to go out. Like, I want to work out, I want to get a job, I want to have a career. I want to try this, I want to try that. Okay, understandable. And you need to see if you can get aligned with that. And if you can get aligned with that, we can work through this stuff and you can keep working through this stuff. And there's a decent chance because you got kids, right, and you got finances and you've got your house and you got. Does anyone really want to get involved in like modern dating? You know what I mean? Like, oh, sounds like a lot of fun to go get on an app and, and swipe people and meet randos. And like, it just sounds like, is that really what we're looking to do right now at age 44? At age 44, almost 45, she wants to swipe right or swipe left or whatever and meet a random other 52 year old that's got a wife and kids. Like, dude, it's just not like, really? Look, it might sound a little bit enticing at first. Like. No, think about it, Think about it long term, not just short term. He'll take me out to a nice dinner. Cool. And then you're gonna meet, you know, the rest of his bullshit that he's got in his life or you got in your life. It's just chaos. And by the way, we've messed up our kids and by the way We've messed up our finances and by the way, we've messed up our house. And so we've caused a lot of damage. You gotta weigh that out. And I think most people, if you can get her through the short term, like, yep, I understand you want to focus on your career, you want to focus on your health, you want to work out in the morning, you want to work out, you want to go to the yoga class in the afternoon. You've never gotten to do that because you were taking care of me and I appreciate it. So now take care of yourself. And maybe she's like, thank you. And maybe we can get aligned. So there you go. If you can get aligned, if you can figure out a place that you can both want to go to, you're going to be fine. If you can't figure out a place where you can both want to go to, then you're going to have to do your best to come up with a fair and equitable business relationship partnership through some kind of a divorce. And if she can't. And you, if you can't decide that you're going to the same place to answer your question, how long would I fight? I would fight as long as I could see that there was some place in the future where we would be trying to get to together. And if I saw that that didn't exist, I'd be like, okay, this is not going to work. And that's my advice.

[Echo Charles]

Next question.

[Jocko Willink]

You got no comment on that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, that's. That sounds fair advice. I mean, yeah, it's fair advice for sure, but I've noticed that or I found this a long time ago where like, everybody's different. So therefore relationship. Relationships are different.

[Jocko Willink]

True.

[Echo Charles]

And they're different in literally infinite ways because. And then you have one paragraph of a question or whatever. So it's like, I don't know, like to. It's like real ambiguous advice I'd get. I mean, I guess something that you would. That would seem obvious to you. Like, yeah, if you, if she feels like she was neglected, take responsibility for that. You know what I'd do? The whole freaking jocko life. Bavin Steve Ward, like, hey, this is what I did. I made you feel this. You can, you know, this is what I messed up. It's completely my fault. This is what I'm doing. If this is what I'm going to do, to fix it and then do it.

[Jocko Willink]

Full ownership, full execution of the principles. Yeah, we got to do the full executions of principles. That's why I started with that.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, fully. And, and the. I, here's what I would say is a commonality that I've seen anyway is that, you know, when you get into a little argument with your wife, girlfriend, whatever, not really.

[Jocko Willink]

But you've heard things. I've heard it happen.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, but you, you know, getting defensive and be like, you know, and like, that's why arguments kind of escalate. Because it's like, oh, I can't believe you said that to me and blah, blah, you know, and you start actually, rather than looking at it as, okay, this is a problem, I just heard this freaking recently. Don't look at. As an argument to win. Look at it as a, as a, like a tangled up web to unravel, you know, kind of a thing. Even though those weren't the exact words. But that, that was essentially it where if you look at it as an argument to win, when you take a hit, oh, you're looking a counter punch, you know, to freaking get back on top, you know, kind of a thing. So I think that. So don't do that or be conscious of that and really not try to do that. Otherwise it's like, bro, what do you mean, neglect? Like, do you mean how old are the kids? Like, what, twice a month? Doesn't seem like that much. But what is she doing? Like, how are you guys acting at home when she comes home and she just ignore it, like, there's a lot to it, you know, and then shoot, then you got to. And then this I would know really not much about at all. He said, After 15 years of supporting me, right? And then she said she's 44. That means she was what, 19, is it?

[Jocko Willink]

No, 29?

[Echo Charles]

29, 39. Oh, yeah, you're right. Okay, so. Well, there you go. See, that goes to show. Exactly. You know, it's kind of part of my point where, like I said, everybody's different. But I think if you stick to the basics, you can improve the chance of things working out. I like that. What do you call it? Alignment assessment.

[Jocko Willink]

Gotta do an alignment assessment. Yeah. When you're in a relationship with someone or a business deal with someone, or a negotiation with someone, and you can't. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground.com It costs $8.18 a month, and if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistancecounterground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized. Underground.