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- [00:00]
Jocko Willink
This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 156 with Echo, Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Got some questions from the troops. First one. I'll be interested to see your assessment of the first one. Yeah, let's get into it.
- [00:16]
Echo Charles
Goes hard. Okay, first question. I work in a role where I often make final decisions on business financing transactions. I've worked in this role for three years playing a major part in turning the company around to the positive. We have an internal sales team who work on commission of these transaction transactions and I have the final say if they're approved or not. And these decisions are factually 100% up to discretion. There's one team member in particular who it seems cannot handle adverse decisions and goes out of the way to over the top to sorry. Goes out of the way to be over the top. Disrespectful and insulting. Whenever there's a chance to speak, speak to me without the sea level execs around. Very small company. Over three years, what started as simply crass has escalated escalated to outright offensive sexual jokes about my wife and two year old son. Outright just calling me a and telling me you first thing in the morning, not leaving my office when asked and standing over my shoulder trying to make sure I'm skipping to his files. I'm confident my in my ability to physically defend myself. Small guy with five years of jiu jitsu training, not too scary. However, as a guy doing a job in finance trying to support a soon to be family of four, physical violence is not worth the risk, especially in the workplace over somebody who is clearly acting horribly and in the wrong. It took too long for me to formally complain about this behavior due to exhausting any other methods to de escalate. But when I finally did with a witness of our CFO said they could potentially discipline this person but basically implied I was being a big fat over this whole thing by saying have you just told him not to do that thing? So he went to the you know, to somebody for assistance and he said have you just told him not just not to do that. Simply dang. This has been going on for three years. I'm the awkward, laughable and physically harmless enemy standing between them and their money. I believe that I'm trying to handle this correctly. I believe that the complete lack of support in the situation is reason to give up on this place. The answer I got out of that conversation proves they do not care about me and have no future there. Either that or they're just stupid. Maybe I'm stupid I don't know. What's your thoughts?
- [02:39]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, you're not stupid. You're doing a good job. You're, you're trying to remain detached. You're staying calm. Sounds like this guy's a jerk. Honestly, this guy sounds like a jerky, sounds like a bully. And if you train Jiu Jitsu, I, I would not be, I would, I would, I would push back against this dude. I would probably move his files right to the bottom, you know what I'm saying? Like, was he, is he gonna attack you? Is he gonna assault you? Is that what he's gonna do? If he does, he's gonna get choked out. Like, that's what's happening. You backed down enough. You've de. Escalated enough. It's been three years. And look, I'm not saying get into a fight with him, but I'm saying do not get pushed around anymore. At a certain point with someone that's making sexual jokes about your wife and your two year old son and this is a person that you work with, is a person you interact with. Like, this isn't some like dirt bag on the street that says something about your wife. Whatever, dude. This is a human being that you work with and interact with. That's disrespectful and not acceptable. Not acceptable? You make sexual jokes about my 2 year old son and it's not acceptable. You are not going to get, that's not going to happen. So, yeah, I would, I would probably just push back against this guy a lot. I would say, yeah, I'll get to your file when I'm ready. What's he gonna get in your face? Can you yell and scream? Yep, I'm not doing it. I just went one down. One even. One more down, by the way, like, I'm not giving you this commission on this one. What are you talking about? Cool. Bring it up the chain of command, you know, you know, look, I don't want to. You don't want to do anything. That's not. You want to maintain the high ground. So what I just said is not, I'm saying if the guy doesn't deserve the commission, don't give it to him. And listen, in the meantime, as you start that process, I would get your resume ready because this place sounds freaking crazy for a guy to be acting like this and for no one, for it to be allowed to happen. You allowed it to happen. That's bad. It's not bad when you allow it a little bit. When you're like, okay, the dude's frustrated. I'M not going to fly off the handle. But three years a guy making sexual comments about your wife. No, can't do that, bro. Can't do that. And you know me, dude. I'm as unemotional as it gets. But you work with this individual. What's he doing to other people? This guy's a bully. So that's what I would do. I start preparing a resume. You obviously are a hard worker. You got a bunch of experience. You've been there for three years. You know, you play a major part, and you've played a major part in turn around the company. This guy's a jerk. This guy's a bully, and I would definitely not accept this type of behavior from him. And you know your boss that said. Have you just told him not to do that? Yep. You should, like, hey, don't talk to me like that. What are you gonna do about it? Well, I'm not gonna process any of your files. You can't do that. Yes, I can. I got all these other four people. I'm gonna do theirs first. Maybe I'll get to yours today. What's he gonna do, yell and scream? If he goes and yells and scream, cool. This guy treats me bad, and I'm not doing his stuff. You can give him to someone else. You. This is. This is just unacceptable behavior, man. Honestly, it's just unacceptable behavior. So, you know, again, the whole idea of, like, I got disrespected. You've heard me talk about this before. Like, 99% of the time it doesn't matter, because a person that's disrespecting you doesn't even respect themselves. They're trying to cause problem. They're looking for reaction, all that stuff. This guy's a bully. He's saying things about your wife and your son, like, unacceptable. It's just unacceptable behavior. And, yeah, I would. I would. Look, I don't want to go over the top and say, like, you should antagonize him and make him get physical with you, because that would be wrong. But you have nothing to fear here. Like, this guy's a jerk, and he's being a jerk to a lot of human beings. So I would hold the line. I would not accept any of this behavior from him. I would probably have, like, a recorder, my phone, ready to record his dumb ass when he does this dumb stuff. And when he, like, attacks you, when he gets in your face, and when he gets in your face, laugh at him. Be like, dude, you're an idiot. I'll do the file When I feel like it, I'll do the file in the order that got turned in. You're not getting moved to the front of the list. Oh, what'd you just call me? What'd you just call me? You just said my wife. I'll tell you what. If you want to talk that way to me, I am going to talk to our leadership about your behavior. What are you going to do? Yeah, I'm running up the chain of command, and I'm not going to do your file. And you can take it elsewhere and just stay calm. And he's going to try and push you or take a swing at you and then put him to sleep. I hate to say it, bro, whatever.
- [08:03]
Echo Charles
But we all think that kind stuff.
- [08:04]
Jocko Willink
Am I wrong?
- [08:05]
Echo Charles
No, you're. I. I don't feel like you're at all. You just said record him.
- [08:11]
Jocko Willink
Yeah. So is that illegal?
- [08:13]
Echo Charles
I don't know. I think there's certain guidelines.
- [08:16]
Jocko Willink
Well, I wouldn't say. I would say not. I would say not clandestinely record him, but just be like, oh, hit the phone. Be like, I just hit record.
- [08:23]
Echo Charles
What do you got to say?
- [08:25]
Jocko Willink
For quality purposes, you know, just to make sure we. I can. You know, for the complaint department. Yeah. What's that? Yeah, that's a perfect line. Hey, for quality assurance, I'm gonna hit record on this phone right now. When you talk to me, bro. What are you gonna do? Gonna. And he's gonna swear at you and stuff?
- [08:40]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [08:40]
Jocko Willink
Like.
- [08:41]
Echo Charles
Yeah. So even the clandestine. The. The spot, the record. Look, I'm pretty much against that kind of stuff. Like, you know, like, invading people's privacy like that. It's like. You know how. It's almost like, what. You know, what's the freaking law? The illegal search and Caesar. Right. You know that thing where it's like, hey, you don't have a warrant because you're going to start looking for this very specific thing. You're going to find some other stuff about people as privacy. I get it, bro. So. I wouldn't normally say that, but. But if it's to this degree, yeah.
- [09:07]
Jocko Willink
Dude, this guy's out of control, man.
- [09:09]
Echo Charles
Yeah. This is, like, out of line, deliberately. It's not like he got mad because he's like, what, like an under. You know, Andrew Paul talks about this dynamic, right? Like, the underwriter has to kind of prove these things. And so that guy and you. I would imagine he'd kind of understand, like, hey, some people are going to get mad if I don't approve stuff. I get it.
- [09:27]
Jocko Willink
This guy's been doing this for three years. Y. Yeah.
- [09:29]
Echo Charles
So it's not like the guy's just sort of getting angry and then the guy's just all sensitive, taking it personal, bro. This guy's getting straight up personal on purpose, by the way. Saying stuff about his wife, his son, all this, like, weird stuff. And like, so he, he obviously knows the difference, you know, between taking a personal and straight up. It is personal. Right. So when it gets to this degree, I'm kind of for it, to be honest with you, because he's doing, he's doing it for a very specific purpose, you know, where he's like, hey, I'm gonna keep this. I'm gonna record this for, I don't know, a month, I don't know, however long. And then I'm gonna bring it up, and I'm gonna bring it up in kind of a big way because, like, hey, this is like, there's some laws, I don't know, some hr.
- [10:03]
Jocko Willink
A month's worth of recordings.
- [10:05]
Echo Charles
Yeah, yeah. So then, yeah, when you bring it up in a big official way, if it got to that point, you know, bro, Yeah, I got evidence. I mean, hey, whether it's admissible or not, that's, that's a whole nother issue. Yeah, but we got the evidence. See what I'm saying?
- [10:19]
Jocko Willink
But anyway, yeah, put a little quality assurance. Put a label on it, put it up on the wall. Quality assurance being recorded. Yep. You're being recorded at this time. You know, I, I, I talked about this before. Sometimes you gotta bark.
- [10:32]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [10:33]
Jocko Willink
You know, like, sometimes you gotta bark because this, this, like when someone comes to my house and they hear my dog bark. Used to be Odin, now it's Vidar. They're not coming in. Yeah, like, they recognize there's a limitation to what they're gonna be able to get away with. And it ain't gonna be getting into my house. It's not even gonna be able to get in my deck, my back, my back patio. We got the dog door. Like, he's coming out to get you. Yeah, that's what's going to happen when you, when you hear. So when somebody says fuck you. And look when they say it, because they're walking down the street and they say, fuck you, man. And you go, yeah, whatever, dude. Like, you don't respond. You don't even say whatever, dude. Just, just completely ignore them. Someone cuts you off and rolls down their window in traffic, just fuck you, motherfucker. Don't even look at them. Just carry on with your day. Like that's what we're doing. When you work with someone and this is how they behave. You got it? You got to put a stop to that shit. Fuck you. Fuck who? You see what I'm saying? Like, yeah, this. This dude's totally out of line. Totally out of line.
- [11:38]
Echo Charles
Yeah.
- [11:39]
Jocko Willink
I'm so glad this dude trains Jiu jitsu. So awesome.
- [11:42]
Echo Charles
Yeah, that's a good little, like, what do you call, like, boundary?
- [11:45]
Jocko Willink
Right?
- [11:46]
Echo Charles
Like, look good little, like the. I'm gonna say this again. You're more right than you know, because there's that right where it's like, you know, there's. There's so many elements to the value of barking, as it were, where. Yeah, it kind of like indicates like, hey, I'm just not going to be like, pushed around and stuff like that, because. Especially when it's out of line like this. But here's actually one that's more important, even on, like, lower levels, because let's say. Which is actually pretty likely when you think about it, because there's people like this where they have. They have a dark, dirty sense of humor, you know? Yeah. And sure, that sense of humor can, when they get angry, can kind of overflow into being mean and stuff like that. But that. But generally speaking, just at. At idle, they idle at that weird, like, kind of crass kind of state, right? Where they talk. They swear a little bit too much, they talk a little bit dirty, you know, Especially if there's all guys or whatever, it's like kind of. It can be part of the culture sometimes, you know? So if this guy's saying going too far and he's just like, whatever, I'll just suck it up. And you know, whatever. He's. The guy is kind of like, sure, I know I'm being mean, but I don't realize how mean I'm really being because I'm not getting any feedback in that way.
- [12:50]
Jocko Willink
No pushback, no bark. Keep walking into that house. There's no. No warning signs.
- [12:55]
Echo Charles
Exactly. Right? So frick. I was literally talking to my brother about this today, where it's like, after a while, especially if that's part of your personality a little, a little bit or a lot, and you just normally act like that and you get no bark, you are going to continue to do that stuff. And it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing it to be mean, to be more and more mean sometimes. It's just how.
- [13:15]
Jocko Willink
Yeah.
- [13:15]
Echo Charles
And no one's really, like, putting those speed bumps in the. You know, that you kind of need to to curb your behavior like that, you know?
- [13:20]
Jocko Willink
Yeah, I kind of have to just complete this thought, you know, because I kind of. When I. When I. When I said, you know, when the guy says, you go, who? You don't talk to me like that. And when the guy now says to you. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground.com it costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistance@jockounderground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized Underground.