Jocko Underground: How to Live in Peace, Now.

Summary

Jocko Podcast Episode Summary: "Jocko Underground: How to Live in Peace, Now."

Release Date: November 4, 2024
Host: Jocko Willink
Guest: Echo Charles

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1. Introduction to Living in the Present

The episode opens with Jocko Willink presenting a profound quote attributed to Lao Tzu:

“If you are depressed, you are living in the past. If you are anxious, you are living in the future. If you are at peace, you are living in the present.”
— Jocko Willink [00:00]

Jocko discusses the origins of the quote, highlighting Lao Tzu's enigmatic presence in Chinese philosophy and the lasting impact of his teachings. He emphasizes that while living in the present is ideal, it's not about completely abandoning thoughts of the past or future. Instead, the quote serves as a tool to recognize when one is overly fixated on either, leading to negative emotions like depression or anxiety.

2. Balancing Past and Future Thoughts

Jocko elaborates on the importance of reflecting on the past without dwelling in it:

“You should definitely think about the past. You should definitely remember the past. You should definitely learn from the past.”
— Jocko Willink [01:34]

He stresses the necessity of learning from past experiences to avoid repeating mistakes but warns against excessive rumination, which can foster regret and remorse. Similarly, while planning for the future is crucial for preparedness and growth, over-concern leads to anxiety and excessive worry.

Echo Charles concurs, sharing personal struggles with intrusive thoughts:

“So when you're, when you can't sleep, right. The tape running in your head over and over again, like, what do you do about it? You just freaking suck it up.”
— Echo Charles [06:41]

Jocko acknowledges the difficulty in halting such thoughts but suggests actively identifying their sources to manage them better.

3. Coping Mechanisms for Intrusive Thoughts

The conversation shifts to practical strategies for managing overactive minds, especially when dealing with insomnia or persistent worries:

“I think understanding about that, you can at least actively say, all right, I know what this is. I'm identifying it.”
— Jocko Willink [03:34]

Echo introduces techniques like counting breaths or numbers to distract the mind:

“And it is weird how hard that ends up being if you're not used to it. So I'm like, shoot, I'm already thinking about something else.”
— Echo Charles [11:20]

Jocko shares his personal attempts to control his thoughts, admitting the challenge:

“Sometimes? Yeah, not usually.”
— Jocko Willink [08:22]

They discuss the effectiveness of these methods, with Echo highlighting the importance of mental discipline:

“Just total lack of mental discipline.”
— Jocko Willink [11:40]

Jocko emphasizes that while techniques like counting breaths are beneficial, they require consistent practice to be effective.

4. Meditation and Physical Practices as Mental Tools

Echo draws parallels between meditation and physical activities like Jiu Jitsu, which serve as forms of meditation through focused engagement:

“When you go to Jiu Jitsu, you don't have the attention span for lack of better.”
— Echo Charles [09:28]

Jocko agrees, noting that such activities force individuals to concentrate solely on the present moment:

“Where lifting, surfing. Yep. But I. But it's not true. I know there's, like, all this other stuff about meditation.”
— Jocko Willink [08:47]

Echo elaborates on how structured physical routines can help in detaching from extraneous thoughts, effectively acting as a meditative practice:

“If you do five rounds, right? I feel like five rounds is, like, the perfect cutoff.”
— Echo Charles [09:38]

They conclude that both meditation and disciplined physical activities can train the mind to focus, reduce intrusive thoughts, and promote peace.

5. Final Thoughts on Mental Discipline and Present Focus

Jocko reiterates the central theme of living in the present to achieve peace:

“But if you're feeling depressed or gloomy or somehow miserable, you might be living too much in the past and thinking too much about the past... So I'm just trying to give you an opportunity to see where these feelings, these negative feelings might be coming from so you can make some adjustments.”
— Jocko Willink [05:55]

Echo adds that once one becomes adept at controlling their focus, it naturally leads to a state of detachment and peace, facilitating better sleep and mental clarity:

“You start to kind of. Kind of pick up the skill or whatever. And then it does help. Like, you... I haven't really thought about anything.”
— Echo Charles [11:46]

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6. Promotion of Jocko Underground

As the episode wraps up, Jocko introduces the Jocko Underground platform, explaining its purpose and benefits:

“We are doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control... It costs $8.18 a month, and if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you.”
— Jocko Willink [12:25]

While this segment is more promotional, it underscores the podcast's commitment to providing value directly to listeners without external dependencies.

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Key Takeaways

• Present Focus for Peace: Striking a balance between reflecting on the past and planning for the future is crucial for mental well-being. Overindulgence in either can lead to negative emotions.

• Active Identification of Thoughts: Recognizing when you're dwelling on the past or worrying about the future allows you to adjust and refocus on the present.

• Practical Techniques: Implementing strategies like counting breaths or engaging in focused physical activities can help manage intrusive thoughts and promote peace.

• Mental Discipline: Consistent practice of mental control techniques enhances the ability to stay present, reducing anxiety and depression.

• Holistic Approach: Combining physical disciplines like Jiu Jitsu with mental practices can serve as effective forms of meditation, fostering overall mental resilience.

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This episode provides listeners with insightful discussions on maintaining mental peace by balancing reflections of the past and anticipations of the future. Through personal anecdotes and practical advice, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles offer strategies to cultivate present-moment awareness, essential for leading a disciplined and fulfilling life.

Transcript

[Jocko Willink]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast, number 143, sitting here with Echo. Charles, There's a quote I want to read to you. It says this. If you are depressed, you are living in the past. If you are anxious, you are living in the future. If you are at peace, you are living in the present. Okay? It's. It's kind of self explanatory. It's a bit of advice from Lao Tzu, the old master, believed to have lived in 6th century BCE in China, might have worked on the royal archives, might have written or helped write Tao Te Ching, might have lived for a really long time, might have been the product of a virgin birth. There's a lot of. He's a mythical guy, right? The mythical individual. Not much is known for certain about him, but he's definitely one of the most respected sources of ancient wisdom in Chinese philosophy. And here, here's the thing. I like this quote, but not exactly how it's prescribed, because I don't think you should only live in the present. I don't think you should only live in peace. Like, I don't think that's the crux of what we should be trying to do with this quote. I think it's more of a. Of teaching you some indications and warnings of what could be happening in your life, of when you could be leaning too far in one direction or the other. I think it's. It's a good way to understand your feelings and where those feelings are coming from, because I think you should definitely think about the past. You should definitely remember the past. You should definitely learn from the past. You should definitely enjoy good memories of the past. You should definitely study the past and the mistakes that you made. Right? You should do that. But if you go overboard with that and you live in the past, then you're filled with regret and remorse about what's happened to you. So it's just, to me, an indication. Let's say you're walking around today, Echo Charles, you woke up today, you're feeling kind of. You're dragging. You're like. You're thinking about things. You don't feel happy. You feel a little bit of regret, you feel a little bit of depression, and you're. You just have these feelings. I think it's a good thing to think to yourself, oh, I remember Jocko was talking about this. He said, I'm thinking a little too much about the past. A little too much. Should you think about the past? Yes. Because if you don't learn from the past, we make the Same mistakes. But if we're dwelling in the past, like that one, dwelling. If we're dwelling in the past, it's problematic. So stop thinking so much about the past. Just dial it down and listen. I know it's hard, man. I know it's hard. The reason I know it's hard is because sometimes when I'm trying to go to sleep at night, I have. I have thoughts.

[Echo Charles]

Sure.

[Jocko Willink]

And I can't stop them. And I can't go to sleep for hours, by the way.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And I mean, I had a long day. I trained, I lifted, I worked. Maybe we recorded something. Like, maybe I went surfing, like the whole thing. I should be tired. But I'm in there. I'm thinking about this, this thing and this thread and this other thing leads to that thing, and I'm just can't go to sleep. So I imagine when someone's having negative thoughts about the past, it's kind of like that. You can't just be like, stop. I'm going to stop thinking about those. Because if I could do that, I'd be falling asleep every night at, you know, 9:38. All right.

[Echo Charles]

Yep.

[Jocko Willink]

But it doesn't work that way. So I get it. But I think understanding about that, you can at least actively say, all right, I know what this is. I'm identifying it. I find that if something's bothering me, I study it little bit hard, you know, like, focus on it. Like, okay, what am I really talking about here? What am I really thinking about here? So, so, so that can happen to us. Now, the other hand is it's good to prepare for the future. Right? It's good to prepare for the future. It's good to think about the future. It's good to get things ready. It's good when you acknowledge the path that you're on. On. And you look to see where this path is leading and look to see how long it's going to take you to get there and what you can do to better prepare yourself as you go down this path. That's all good. But since you can't control everything in the future, if you go too far, you will be anxious about it, you'll be worrying about it, you'll be excessively focused on it, which is problematic. You can. And you. And I did a podcast where I was talking about being a little bit paranoid. Right. And I think it's good be a little bit paranoid. I was, I was. Honestly, I was a little bit extra paranoid when I was in the, When I was in the Team Spark in fact, I was a little, I was a little too paranoid. In other words, I had to, you know, be. Instead of being like 20 minutes early, half an hour early, I had to be 45 minutes early. I had to be an hour early for something. I was good to go. You know, Instead of like preparing for 20 minutes, I had to prepare for, for two hours. And I wasn't the only one. I'm not trying to say there's like guys like me that were like a little extra paranoid. I think I missed out on stuff like normal life activities because I was a little pair, a little too paranoid. So I think, is it good to be a little paranoid? Yes, it is. Could I have been personally a little less paranoid? Yes, I could have. But that's a, that's different than being a lot paranoid. Like obsessed, like OCD activity. Like, I can't sleep tonight because I'm going to be thinking about this thing that. You see what I'm saying? So you got to watch out for both ends of these spectrums. You got, you got. Listen, you have to think about the past. You have to learn from the past. You have to think about the future, how the things can go in the future. But if you're feeling depressed or gloomy or somehow miserable, you might be living too much in the past and thinking too much about the past. And if you're anxious or constantly worried or you're over paranoid, you might be spending too much time thinking about the future. So I'm just trying to give you an opportunity to see where these feelings, these negative feelings might be coming from so you can make some adjustments. That's it. Think about what's happening now. That's kind of my, that's kind of my statement for the day.

[Echo Charles]

So when you're, when you can't sleep, right. The tape running in your head over and over again, like, what do you do about it? You just freaking suck it up.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. Basically I'll try and like pull the thread on enough, but it is like I haven't found a cure.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

My wife listened to something or read something that was like, you count. You count your. You start with 20 breaths and you count each breath going backwards.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And it quote unquote gives you something to do. This is very believable. You're. Or I agree with this. Letting your mind wander is way harder to control than if your mind has something to do. That's why it's like when you were a little kid, did you ever get told, like, count sheep.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah. That's why? Just, like, count sheep. Count your breath. Count this thing. My problem is with the trying to count the breaths. It takes too long to breathe, and so I have, like. I'm supposed to be thinking of a number, but I have. It's real easy for me to have 98 different thoughts in the four seconds.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

And so it doesn't. So what I've. I've tried to do, like, counting each breath as it goes, you know, like, I'm timing my breath now. 1,001, 1002. 1,003. 1,004. 1,001. 1,002. 1,003. 1004. 1,002. 1,002. Yeah, I can see you're getting confused. Yeah, well, basically, I just try and occupy my mind with some menial task that will prevent it from thinking about all these crazy thought I have.

[Echo Charles]

And does it work?

[Jocko Willink]

Sometimes? Yeah, not usually.

[Echo Charles]

The. So, you know, people ask you a lot, like, do you meditate? And then, you know. And I've heard you say this, which I agree with, but when you say. Oh, yeah, like, Jiu Jitsu is, like, kind of one of my forms of meditation. Right.

[Jocko Willink]

Where lifting, surfing. Yep. But I. But it's not true. I know there's, like, all this other stuff about meditation.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, well, actually, really, when you want to go deep enough, it kind of is true. Because think about. I mean, that's why Jiu Jitsu is so therapeutic.

[Jocko Willink]

Right. You and I are bros, and I think that's blinding you right now. I think there's a bunch of stuff about meditation that I'm.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Just not.

[Echo Charles]

Yes.

[Jocko Willink]

Not doing.

[Echo Charles]

I think you're correct. And in fact, and this is why I even bring it up, because jujitsu kind of forces you to do this. What meditation has you do as well. So, you know, like, okay, who's I talking? I think Khalifa maybe. I don't know, maybe you. I don't know he. Where Jiu Jitsu, if you're stressed about home, you got an argument with your boss. Why, whatever. When you go to Jiu Jitsu, you don't have the attention span for lack of better.

[Jocko Willink]

You have the mental capacity to think about that fight.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Just got to think about not getting choked.

[Echo Charles]

Not getting choked. How freaking tired I am. Like, I sweat, like, basically everything right in front of you, which is a lot.

[Jocko Willink]

Mm.

[Echo Charles]

It's like, that's the only thing you have the attention span for. Bandwidth. Mental men. Right. And then your body gets into this pattern, this rhythm. Let's say you do five rounds, right? I feel like five rounds is, like, the perfect cutoff of, like, anything less than that, you feel a little bit like you didn't get your fulfill. Anything more than that is, like, depends.

[Jocko Willink]

On who you rolled with. Yeah.

[Echo Charles]

But if you figure where the five rounds, let's say. Let's say they're five minutes, six minutes, whatever, that's about 25, 30 minutes of straight up not thinking about anything else except for what's in front of you. Right. So meditation, from what I understand, anyway, the beginning, you know, there's different levels of meditation. So they're the. The fundamental part of it, from what I'm told, is just focusing on your breath, right?

[Jocko Willink]

Yep. That is one of the fundamental parts of it, for sure.

[Echo Charles]

And then. So think about that where essentially you're doing the same thing, but instead of focusing on what the guy's trying to do you and what you're trying to do to the guy in Jiu Jitsu, you're focused on just your breath. You're actively monopolizing your mental attention to your breath. Just so you don't think about trying.

[Jocko Willink]

To do what Jiu Jitsu's doing. Yes.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Just naturally, you know. So when you're. I asked you because this happened to me pretty recently where I'm, like, thinking about stuff, and it's not even bad stuff, actually, a lot of.

[Jocko Willink]

For me, I could be thinking about a book plot.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

You know what I'm saying? And it's like, yeah, just don't stop.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. And so I'm like, brian, I'm kind of up late right now. Like, I'm not like, I've been here for. I think. I think it was like two and a half hours of just that.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I've done that.

[Echo Charles]

So I'm like, all right, so. So I did that. I tried to do that. I was like, hey, I'm going to do this.

[Jocko Willink]

How is it? 12:48 in the morning. In the morning?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. For me, it was a lot later, but yeah, exactly. Right. Same exact question. And it was Sam Harris who said, like, okay, the bean. To focus on your breath. So I'm, like, focusing on my breath. Right. And it is weird how hard that ends up being if you're not used to it. So I'm like, shoot, I'm already thinking about something else. Like, freaking 20 seconds in, I'm already thinking about something else.

[Jocko Willink]

Just total lack of mental discipline.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah, bro.

[Jocko Willink]

It's true.

[Echo Charles]

It's true. It's.

[Jocko Willink]

I'm right here, dude.

[Echo Charles]

But after a while, when you're like, oh, I see what's going on, and you start to get used to it. You start to kind of. Kind of pick it up, you know, pick up the skill or whatever. And then it does help. Like, you. You don't realize it, but it's like, dang, I haven't really thought about anything. And then before you know it, you're kind of sleepy.

[Jocko Willink]

Yeah, I think that's a good call.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. But that's a. That's a good way to kind of zoom out, detach, if you will.

[Jocko Willink]

I think that those sleeping scenarios can often be like, either thinking about the past or thinking about the future. Right?

[Echo Charles]

Yeah.

[Jocko Willink]

Whereas if you make yourself think about, like, how many breaths you're taking in a second or whatever, you can be like, oh, now you're just thinking about right now. And hopefully you can fall asleep.

[Echo Charles]

Yeah. Yeah. Because really, when you think about it. And I don't know.

[Jocko Willink]

Look, by the way, for me, it's not like every night I'm like that. It just has to be. So. That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to Jocko underground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are. We're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground dot com. It costs $8.18 a month, and if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistanceacounderground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized Underground.