Jocko Underground: The Way to Turn Your Rival Into Your Ally

Summary

Jocko Podcast Underground #179: The Way to Turn Your Rival Into Your Ally

Host: Jocko Willink (A)
Guest: Kerry Helton (B)
Date: August 25, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Jocko Willink and guest Kerry Helton tackle real listener questions about discipline and leadership with a focus on conflict transformation. The main theme centers on how to turn professional rivals—or even adversaries—into allies through strategic relationship building, mutual respect, and a mission-oriented mindset. The core example explored is a listener’s dilemma involving overlapping interests and apparent competition between a local water polo program and a swim coach, highlighting universal leadership lessons for work, sports, and life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Openness and Authentic Problem-Solving

(00:00 – 01:44)

• Jocko and Kerry emphasize answering questions as they come, directly from listeners, aiming for genuine, actionable advice.
• They briefly discuss how in the show’s early days, there was more editing and preparation, but now they embrace a more candid tone to honor the voices of their audience.

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2. Listener Question: Navigating Rivalry with the Swim Coach

(01:46 – 07:26)

Situation Recap:
A listener (Jack) seeks advice about conflict between the local swim coach (accusing water polo of “poaching” swimmers and damaging technique) and the water polo program. The swim coach leverages her influence to block and disrupt water polo activities using shared facilities, escalating tension and making collaboration difficult. Jack wants to foster better relations without escalating hostilities.

Jocko’s Analysis and Recommendations:

• Recognize Commonality of Turf Wars:
  "It's also unfortunate that it's very common for this type of thing to be happening. People looking out for themselves and looking out for their little rice bowl." — Jocko, 02:42

• Origin of 'Rice Bowl' Metaphor:
  Light banter about the phrase, illustrating how people protect their interests and resist sharing resources.

• Avoid Antagonism:
  "Making things antagonistic is not going to help... it'll make it worse." — Jocko, 03:12

• Relationship Building with Your Rival:

  • Even if it’s difficult, build a relationship with the rival coach.
  • Listen and allow her influence, show trust and respect in order to be treated the same way.
  • “Allow her to influence me, put some trust in her. Allow her to treat her with respect so she treats me with respect. That's what I'll do. Trust, listen, respect, influence and care.” — Jocko, 03:30

• Relationship Building with Pool Management:

  • Establish a solid reputation with those who manage the shared space.
  • Keep facilities cleaner than expected and be highly responsible.
  • “I would make sure that the pool is always clean when we're done ... the golden boys of the pool area.” — Jocko, 03:58

• Practice Compromise—But Set Boundaries:

  • Be willing to accommodate the swim team’s needs and make scheduling compromises, within reason.
  • Avoid being a pushover, but show commitment to the bigger mission—the whole community’s success.
  • “I'd make these little compromises to show that I'm here to support the overall mission, the pool's mission, not just my mission.” — Jocko, 04:23

• Long-Term Perspective:

  • This is a patient, strategic approach—it won’t yield immediate results.
  • If the swim coach tries to take advantage, be firm and rely on management’s sense of fairness.

• Shared Commitment to Success:

  • Reinforce that, as a leader or coach, you want the other program to be passionate and fight for their kids.
  • “She cares about her program, which we want her to. If you got a kid in her program, you want her to be fighting for the pool... she's engaged in her job. I'm happy about that.” — Jocko, 06:15

• Actionable Steps for the Water Polo Team:

  • Involve your own team in supporting these efforts (“Hey, when we’re done, clean up the pool area...” [Jocko, 07:07]).
  • Ensure a reputation for discipline, cleanliness, and respect within shared spaces.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jocko on mindset:
  “We're not mad about that. How do we get her to see your side? You build a relationship with her. How do you get the management to see? You build a relationship with the management. That's what we're doing.” (06:28)

• On team involvement:
  "I would do that for sure. They'd know that we are squared away." (07:07)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 — Introduction, philosophy on handling listener questions
• 01:46 — Listener dilemma: water polo vs. swim coach conflict
• 03:12 — Avoiding antagonism as a first response
• 03:30 — Importance of relationship-building with opponents
• 03:58 — Building trust with pool management
• 04:23 — Compromise strategies for scheduling and resource sharing
• 06:15 — Empathy towards the rival’s passion
• 06:28 — Synthesizing the leadership solution
• 07:07 — Including your team in the approach

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, pragmatic, and motivational, infused with Jocko’s trademark discipline-driven approach to leadership. The advice is direct and actionable—don’t meet antagonism with antagonism. Instead, invest in relationships, respect the passion of others, and act in service of the bigger mission. By doing so, you shift from confrontation to collaboration and greatly increase your chances of transforming a rival into an ally.

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This episode’s practical wisdom applies far beyond coaching, offering a roadmap for anyone facing turf wars or interpersonal conflict in any area of life.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 179, sitting here with Kerry Helton. We've got some questions from all of you and we are going to try and provide some options, some courses of actions, and perhaps some guidance for you to utilize. That's what we got. How are you doing? So did we pre read the questions this time?

[B]

We did a little pre reading a.

[A]

Scanned early on in the game. In the early UG podcast, Echo Charles would have to pre read. He'd be like, just give me like 15 minutes and I would. But I harassed him so much about it, telling him that that was weak. You need to get in the game. You need to figure it out. So in.

[B]

In Echo and my defense, now, these are literally taken from the people. These are. These are written in the people's words. Right? We're not in here freaking, you know, formatting and adding punctual.

[A]

This is.

[B]

This is straight up from the people. So we will try to do their voice justice here.

[A]

Did you hear me in the break read question sight unseen? Yes, I did sound like I was having issues. No, I did that shit for a reason.

[B]

I feel like you even, like, gave it a little character too, you know, Like, I felt like I was hearing it from the person.

[A]

So there's good times. But yeah, in the beginning, Echo would. And Echo still can get jammed up, but he also will go heavy editing like he is. No, he's no stranger to just writing a note and rereading a whole thing if he has the skills jammed up.

[B]

To make it happen.

[A]

He has no shame. He will re edit the whole question if he messes it up bad enough.

[B]

So I might have to do some editing here.

[A]

Let's see. Let's see how it goes.

[B]

First question, Echo and Jocko. I'm taking on a new mission. Coaching and volunteering for the local water polo program I once played for. But there's a problem. The local swim coach, who I used to swim for, has strong resentment toward water polo, accusing us of poaching her swimmers and harming their technique. We share the high school pool, and she's made things difficult, canceling our approved times and blocking us from hosting games by leveraging her influence with the pool management. The water polo director has tried to stay patient, but this is becoming disruptive. Ego is clearly in play on both sides, and even if I wanted to step in, I don't want to come off as hostile. How would you approach this kind of situation for the best chance of success? Thanks for all you do. Stay strong, brothers from the underground Jack, I'll give you.

[A]

That's pretty good.

[B]

We're improving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Incrementality here.

[A]

Yeah, There you go. All right. Situation here. You know, it's unfortunate that's happening. It's also unfortunate that it's very common for this type of thing to be happening. People looking out for themselves and looking out for their little rice bowl. I wonder where that term come from. Rice bowl. Like we got the. Protecting the rice bowl. You're not heard that before?

[B]

I haven't. I would imagine the east, though.

[A]

Well, maybe. I mean, that'd be a good guess, but you never heard that term before.

[B]

Negative.

[A]

Oh, well, means that I've got my rice bowl and I'm going to look out for my little rice bowl over here, and you got yours, and you're looking out for yours, and you. And the. The person that asks the question is correct that making things antagonistic is not going to help the call. Help the cause very much at all. In fact, it'll make it worse. So what I would do in this situation is I would, as hard as it may seem, as difficult as it may be, I will do everything that I could to build a relationship with the women, the woman swim coach. That's what I would do. Start to build a relationship. Listen what has say. Allow her to influence me, put some trust in her. Allow her to treat her with respect so she treats me with. Respectfully. That's what I'll do. Trustless and respect, influence and care. And equally, I would also build a very strong relationship with the pool management. Right. So we're gonna build a good relationship with the pool management. I would make sure that the pool is always clean when we're done, and make sure that the. The kickboards were put away, that the stuff was swept up, that there's no garbage, that the schedule is, you know, good. My players were respectful. Like, I would make sure that we became the golden boys of the pool area. So build a relationship up the chain of command with the pool management. I would probably make compromises that favor the swim team. Right. Like, oh, you. Oh, you needed it on Thursday night. What time? Okay, we'll come in after you. We'll go in before, you know. So I'd make these little compromises to. To show that I'm here to, you know, support the overall mission, the pool's mission. Right. Not just my mission, though. The pool and the swim team's part of the pool and the polo team's part of the pool. So we want everybody to have a good, You Know, good winning, long term success. So I'm here for everyone. And that's why I gotta move my practice. You want me to put it back an hour? Cool. Yep. Can we get Tuesdays and Thursdays at the other time? You know, I would do my best to make compromises that favor the swim team. And look, does that mean I'm gonna be a pushover? No, I'm not gonna be a pushover, but I'd make it very clear that I'm here to help and I'm not just taking care of my own little rice bowl over here. And that's what I would do. And I think long term, this is gonna be a long term strategy. And you know, the, the actual woman coach, you know, she's gonna, oh, she might see that weakness and be like, oh, yes, actually, I need you not, not to be in here at all on Thursdays. Right. So I, I hear it, and I'm not gonna let that happen. But the pool management won't that let that happen either. So things aren't gonna change overnight. Build these relationships and allow her to influence you. Make decisions that are supporting of the team. The whole team, Both teams. And in the long run, you're gonna have the best possible outcome. That, and I'm glad that you asked the question the way you asked it. Which is the best chance of success. You didn't say, like, how do I get this woman to back off? Because she's not gonna back off. She cares about her program, which we want her to. If you got a kid in her program, you want her to be fighting for the pool for that extra half an hour when the water polo kids turn up. We need another half an hour. You do more laps. Like, that's what you want. You. She's engaged in her job. I'm happy about that. We're not mad about that. How do we get her to see your side? You build a relationship with her. How do you get the management to see you build a relationship with the management. That's what we're doing.

[B]

If you're in this scenario, are you involving the water polo team in this effort?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. When I'd be like, hey. I mean, I might not say, hey, guys, here's what we're trying to do. But by, hey, when we're done, clean up the pool area. Hey, make sure there's no kickboards lying around. Hey, make sure we got the lanes, lines all put back out the way they're supposed to be. Like, I would do that for sure. They'd know that we are squared away. Yep. Roger. Next question.

[B]

Next question.

[A]

I'm 42, never married, so that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are. We're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground dot com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [e-mail] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized Underground.