Jocko Podcast Underground #179: The Way to Turn Your Rival Into Your Ally

Host: Jocko Willink (A)
Guest: Kerry Helton (B)
Date: August 25, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Jocko Willink and guest Kerry Helton tackle real listener questions about discipline and leadership with a focus on conflict transformation. The main theme centers on how to turn professional rivals—or even adversaries—into allies through strategic relationship building, mutual respect, and a mission-oriented mindset. The core example explored is a listener’s dilemma involving overlapping interests and apparent competition between a local water polo program and a swim coach, highlighting universal leadership lessons for work, sports, and life.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Openness and Authentic Problem-Solving

(00:00 – 01:44)

• Jocko and Kerry emphasize answering questions as they come, directly from listeners, aiming for genuine, actionable advice.
• They briefly discuss how in the show’s early days, there was more editing and preparation, but now they embrace a more candid tone to honor the voices of their audience.

2. Listener Question: Navigating Rivalry with the Swim Coach

(01:46 – 07:26)

Situation Recap:
A listener (Jack) seeks advice about conflict between the local swim coach (accusing water polo of “poaching” swimmers and damaging technique) and the water polo program. The swim coach leverages her influence to block and disrupt water polo activities using shared facilities, escalating tension and making collaboration difficult. Jack wants to foster better relations without escalating hostilities.

Jocko’s Analysis and Recommendations:

• Recognize Commonality of Turf Wars:
  "It's also unfortunate that it's very common for this type of thing to be happening. People looking out for themselves and looking out for their little rice bowl." — Jocko, 02:42

• Origin of 'Rice Bowl' Metaphor:
  Light banter about the phrase, illustrating how people protect their interests and resist sharing resources.

• Avoid Antagonism:
  "Making things antagonistic is not going to help... it'll make it worse." — Jocko, 03:12

• Relationship Building with Your Rival:

  • Even if it’s difficult, build a relationship with the rival coach.
  • Listen and allow her influence, show trust and respect in order to be treated the same way.
  • “Allow her to influence me, put some trust in her. Allow her to treat her with respect so she treats me with respect. That's what I'll do. Trust, listen, respect, influence and care.” — Jocko, 03:30

• Relationship Building with Pool Management:

  • Establish a solid reputation with those who manage the shared space.
  • Keep facilities cleaner than expected and be highly responsible.
  • “I would make sure that the pool is always clean when we're done ... the golden boys of the pool area.” — Jocko, 03:58

• Practice Compromise—But Set Boundaries:

  • Be willing to accommodate the swim team’s needs and make scheduling compromises, within reason.
  • Avoid being a pushover, but show commitment to the bigger mission—the whole community’s success.
  • “I'd make these little compromises to show that I'm here to support the overall mission, the pool's mission, not just my mission.” — Jocko, 04:23

• Long-Term Perspective:

  • This is a patient, strategic approach—it won’t yield immediate results.
  • If the swim coach tries to take advantage, be firm and rely on management’s sense of fairness.

• Shared Commitment to Success:

  • Reinforce that, as a leader or coach, you want the other program to be passionate and fight for their kids.
  • “She cares about her program, which we want her to. If you got a kid in her program, you want her to be fighting for the pool... she's engaged in her job. I'm happy about that.” — Jocko, 06:15

• Actionable Steps for the Water Polo Team:

  • Involve your own team in supporting these efforts (“Hey, when we’re done, clean up the pool area...” [Jocko, 07:07]).
  • Ensure a reputation for discipline, cleanliness, and respect within shared spaces.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jocko on mindset:
  “We're not mad about that. How do we get her to see your side? You build a relationship with her. How do you get the management to see? You build a relationship with the management. That's what we're doing.” (06:28)

• On team involvement:
  "I would do that for sure. They'd know that we are squared away." (07:07)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 — Introduction, philosophy on handling listener questions
• 01:46 — Listener dilemma: water polo vs. swim coach conflict
• 03:12 — Avoiding antagonism as a first response
• 03:30 — Importance of relationship-building with opponents
• 03:58 — Building trust with pool management
• 04:23 — Compromise strategies for scheduling and resource sharing
• 06:15 — Empathy towards the rival’s passion
• 06:28 — Synthesizing the leadership solution
• 07:07 — Including your team in the approach

Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, pragmatic, and motivational, infused with Jocko’s trademark discipline-driven approach to leadership. The advice is direct and actionable—don’t meet antagonism with antagonism. Instead, invest in relationships, respect the passion of others, and act in service of the bigger mission. By doing so, you shift from confrontation to collaboration and greatly increase your chances of transforming a rival into an ally.

This episode’s practical wisdom applies far beyond coaching, offering a roadmap for anyone facing turf wars or interpersonal conflict in any area of life.