Jocko Underground: What Should I Do With My Professional Life?

Summary

Jocko Underground Podcast Summary: "What Should I Do With My Professional Life?"

Episode Details:

• Podcast Title: Jocko Podcast
• Host/Author: Jocko DEFCOR Network (Featuring Jocko Willink and Echo Charles)
• Episode: Jocko Underground: What Should I Do With My Professional Life?
• Release Date: February 10, 2025
• Description: Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink, and Director Echo Charles delve into discipline and leadership across various facets of life, including business, war, relationships, and everyday scenarios.

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1. Introduction

In episode 154 of the Jocko Underground podcast, hosts Jocko Willink and Echo Charles tackle a pertinent question from a listener grappling with career uncertainty. The episode centers around evaluating professional paths, particularly the allure and challenges of transitioning into law enforcement.

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2. Listener's Dilemma: Seeking a More Meaningful Career

The episode begins with a listener's inquiry from a 28-year-old married male who finds his current desk job intrinsically meaningful but unsatisfying. He expresses a desire for a more physically active role and contemplates a career in law enforcement, inspired by his retired cop father and former Marine brother. Despite the appeal of duty, camaraderie, and mission, he faces mental roadblocks such as fears about the impact on his family, job dangers, and work shifts. The listener is torn between authentic desire and possible self-imposed excuses, questioning whether his yearning for a "badass" job is a realistic pursuit or a mere fantasy.

Notable Quote:

"I can't tell if I'm coming up with excuses, holding myself back or if that particular career is really not for me."
(Listener, 00:09)

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3. Hosts' Response: Weighing the Realities of Law Enforcement

a. Understanding the Realities

Jocko opens by addressing the often-romanticized view of police work, emphasizing that it's not without its significant challenges. He cites alarming statistics, noting that 35% of police officers experience PTSD, compared to the general population's 7% (02:00). Additionally, there's a 10% higher stress level among officers, impacting their overall health. However, he balances this by highlighting that many officers maintain normal lives, exemplifying resilience and effective coping mechanisms.

Notable Quote:

"PTSD doesn't necessarily mean you have a ruined life. It just means you got some stuff you gotta work through."
(Jocko, 03:20)

b. Comparing Risks Across Professions and Activities

Echo contributes by illustrating that every profession and activity carries inherent risks. Using statistics from water activities:

• 38% of shark attacks on the West Coast involve surfers.
• 11% involve swimmers.
• 46% divers.
• 5% kayakers.

Echo, who engages in several such activities, points out that despite knowing the risks, he continues to participate, underscoring that risk management is universal.

Notable Quote:

"There's always going to be some kind of downside. But then what are the upsides?"
(Jocko, 04:47)

He further compares law enforcement to other high-risk activities like Jiu Jitsu and even seemingly lower-risk hobbies like pickleball, which surprisingly has high injury rates due to the nature of play and participants' fitness levels.

c. Encouraging Iterative Exploration

Jocko advises the listener to take incremental steps towards exploring law enforcement without fully committing immediately. Suggestions include:

• Becoming a reserve police officer or volunteer firefighter
• Joining the Army Reserves or National Guard
• Participating in ride-alongs

These approaches allow for firsthand experience, helping to assess genuine interest and suitability without the full commitment and associated risks.

Notable Quote:

"If you don't like what you're doing as a job, find an exit strategy. Don't spend the rest of your life doing something that you don't like."
(Jocko, 05:04)

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4. The "Grass is Always Greener" Mindset

Echo introduces a personal anecdote to illustrate the common perception that others' careers are more fulfilling. He recounts witnessing a former colleague, Casey Ryan—a now police officer—handling a critical incident. This moment deepened his respect for law enforcement but also highlighted the envious sentiment of his own less adrenaline-fueled work.

Notable Quote:

"In the moment, the grass is always greener. They're solving problems and crimes, and I'm over here pressing record."
(Echo, 08:42)

Jocko concurs, acknowledging the potential disappointment if one's aspirations remain unfulfilled, stressing the importance of making informed and deliberate career choices.

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5. Final Thoughts and Conclusions

The hosts conclude by reinforcing the significance of proactive exploration and self-assessment in career decisions. They emphasize that while the allure of more "meaningful" or "exciting" jobs is strong, it's crucial to understand personal motivations, manage risks responsibly, and ensure alignment with one's values and life goals.

Echo underscores the value of intrinsic meaning in work and suggests balancing a meaningful career with fulfilling personal hobbies. Jocko reiterates the need to avoid complacency in unsatisfying roles, advocating for continuous pursuit of growth and satisfaction.

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6. Summary of Key Insights

• Risk is Universal: Every profession and activity has inherent risks; understanding and managing them is essential.
• Reality vs. Perception: Romanticized views of certain careers, like law enforcement, often overlook significant challenges.
• Incremental Steps: Exploring desired careers through volunteer or reserve roles can provide clarity without full commitment.
• Self-Reflection: It's important to discern between genuine aspirations and temporary envies or fantasies.
• Balance and Alignment: Ensuring that career choices align with personal values, life goals, and desired lifestyle is crucial for long-term satisfaction.

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7. Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Listener's Concern:

  "I can't tell if I'm coming up with excuses, holding myself back or if that particular career is really not for me."
  (00:09)

• Jocko on PTSD:

  "PTSD doesn't necessarily mean you have a ruined life. It just means you got some stuff you gotta work through."
  (03:20)

• Jocko on Risk Management:

  "There's always going to be some kind of downside. But then what are the upsides?"
  (04:47)

• Jocko's Advice:

  "If you don't like what you're doing as a job, find an exit strategy. Don't spend the rest of your life doing something that you don't like."
  (05:04)

• Echo on Perception:

  "In the moment, the grass is always greener. They're solving problems and crimes, and I'm over here pressing record."
  (08:42)

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Conclusion

This episode of Jocko Underground provides a nuanced exploration of career decision-making, particularly in high-stakes fields like law enforcement. Through candid discussions and real-life examples, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles guide listeners in evaluating their professional paths with clarity, resilience, and informed judgment.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 154, sitting here with Echo Charles and we have some questions from the troopers at this time. Yep, let's get into it.

[B]

All right, first one. I'm a 28 year old married male. For a long time I've been trying to figure out what to do with my life career wise. My current job is intrinsically meaningful, but I feel it's not for me. I sit at a desk all day and a big part of me feels I should be doing something more physical, a more physical job. I mean, I'm in great shape and would like to be in a career where I can be more active and problem solve. My dad is a retired cop and my brother is a former Marine. I've considered a career in law enforcement for a long time. The sense of duty, camaraderie and mission are attractive to me. But each time I get ready to pursue it, I have a bunch of mental roadblocks. Fears of how the day to day will affect me and my eventual family, the shift, work, dangers, etc all enter my mind. I've thought about this for years and I can't tell if I'm coming up with excuses, holding myself back or if that particular career is really not for me. I've struggled with accepting not having a quote unquote badass job to and find myself envious of those I've who pursue things like military, police, fire, etc. But I wonder if that is more of a fantasy I've created or if I need to stop with the excuses and get after it. Any thoughts you and Echo have would be greatly appreciated.

[A]

So one thing I want to say is like we. You don't hear a lot of information about, for instance, police that are perfectly fine. You know what I mean? Like PTSD. Look, do. Do police get PTSD? Yep, they do. Did some quick, you know, research. 35% of police get PTSD right now. Normally it's only 7% of the population, so there's an increased chance, but there's also a bunch of police that don't get PTSD, you know what I'm saying? There's like 10% higher levels of stress and whatever problems are associated with stress, mental stress and what that does to your health. So there's like a 10% higher when you're for a police officer, but there's a lot of police officers that are totally freaking normal. There's a lot of police officers that are like, yeah, oh yeah, someone got shot today. It's what my job is. I Did my best to process through it. We got the person that. You know what I mean? Like, there's people that get away with it or get on with it. There's people that have squared away family lives that are police officers a lot. Divorce rate is 2% lower than the national average for police officers. There you go. You. You always hear like, the police are getting. Okay, okay. Just a little reality check. So the percentages of some of those are high. Look, the PTSD thing is definitely higher. But also, like, PTSD doesn't necessarily mean you have, like, a ruined life. It just means you got some stuff you gotta work through, you know, like, you might get, you know, you get some kind of a little injury. You gotta. Oh, I can't do this certain part of the exercise. I gotta work my range of motion a little bit. I gotta warm up more. Whatever. It's like you just. It doesn't ruin your life because you got a bum elbow. You know, you can't lock out your bench press. Okay. Can't go as heavy as used to, but you're still doing. Ben. You see what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we have to call it, like, it's the worst thing in the world. We figure out. Police, military, learn how to work through that stuff now. Like. Like. So here's my. My point here. Surfers, people that surf, account for 38% of all shark attacks on the West Coast. 11% are swimmers, 46% are divers, and 5% are kayakers. Now, I surf, I swim, I dive, and I kayak. I do all those things. Look, do I kayak a lot? No, but I have a kayak at my house. And I will go out. I try not to dive anymore, but do I go out snorkeling and. Yeah. With my mask and fins out? Yes, I do swim. Do I love. Do I swim a lot? No, but do I swim? Yes. So I do all the surf. Of course. So I do all the things. I do all the things. So even though there's a risk, 36% chance or a much higher risk for all the water activities I do of getting eaten by a shark, I don't care. And I still do it. Knock on wood. Hopefully I don't, but you see what I'm saying, There's risk in anything you do. Like, you could. You, you know, jiu jitsu? What are they? I should have looked this up, too. Like, what are the. What are the injury rates in Jiu Jitsu? There's injury rates in Jiu jitsu. Guess what else? There's injury rates in pick up basketball games. You know, it's a huge, you know, it's a huge injury causing sport right now.

[B]

Pickleball.

[A]

Pickleball. Huge injury causing sport right now. A sport that's designed not to injure you little tiny court. They can't run very much. Not much. A bunch of lateral movement. But these people that haven't exercised very much, they're freaking getting aggro with their pickleball and they're getting injured.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So regardless of what you do, there's some kind of risk. There's always going to be some kind of like quote unquote downside. But then what are the upsides? Right. You look at that. So here's what I'd do if I were you. I would weigh the risks a little bit and one of the ways I would take a iterative step is go become a reserve police officer or go become a volunteer firefighter or join the army Reserves or join the National Guard and see what you think of it. You're only 28 years old. You had all kinds of, you know, not all kinds of time, but you have time to go, oh, let me see what it's like being an army reservist. Let me go to boot camp this summer. Let me go to AIT or maybe he has a degree. Maybe you can get some kind of a reserve officer commissioning. Right. So do something or volunteer firefighter. I was a volunteer firefighter when I was a little kid putting on Indian tanks and walking up and fighting brush fires. You get a feel for it. You can become a reserve police officer in some states. Cool. Go figure that out. Go do a bunch of ride alongs. Like go, go check it out and see what. Then see what you really think. Because you're. Because that's what essentially this question is. Am I being like, do I really want it or not? Well, go see what it's really like, get closer to it and figure it out. And I think that's a good iterative step. Go learn more. And then once you learn more and you go, oh, dang, I really like that volunteer firefighter. I really like doing that. Okay, cool. Maybe you like being a police. You try the police thing. Try doing a couple ride alongs. You're like, I didn't really like that. Or you do a firefighting thing and you go out and you do a bunch of ambulance runs for, you know, morbidly obese drug addicts that are throwing up all over themselves. You're like, well, I didn't really like that. Job as much as I thought I would. Or maybe you get to put out a car fire and you're like, yo, that was cool. Maybe watch these firefighters go out and get after it in a building. Like, they saved Victory. MMA went out and fought that fire. So maybe you'll get fired up or maybe you'll join the army Reserves and you'll go and be like, dude, I'm glad I'm only reservists because I don't want to do that for a living. Or maybe you're like, I'm ready to go active duty, so that's what I would do. I would also train Jiu Jitsu. Just saying doesn't sound like you train Jiu Jitsu. And the last thing is I would say this. If you don't like what you're doing as a job, I would find an exit strategy. Like, you're 20 years old. Don't spend the rest of your life, eight hours a day, five days a week doing something that you don't like. To me, that doesn't sound like a good plan. You say it's intrinsically meaningful. And if that's good enough, okay, cool. If it's something that like, oh, as you get older, you can pick up some hobbies on the outside and you'll still enjoy it and you still get to, you know. Let's say, let's say your job is you're finding. Helping raise money for kids that are sick. Like, okay, you're doing that from a desk job, but you're doing something really cool and that's great and it makes you feel like you're accomplishing something. Keep doing it and go figure some physical stuff on the part time. But if you actually don't like your job, don't. Don't keep doing it, man. Don't keep doing it. That's what I got. It doesn't sound like he has a family either. He said something about future family, right? Don't have a family yet. Take some risks. Why you don't have a family? Why you don't have a mortgage to pay and mouth to feed. That's. That's my.

[B]

Yep. No family yet. He. He's married. So.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But yeah. Do you think. And cuz I feel like this natural. But do you think that this and kind of it being a common thing where it's like, you know, the whole the grass is always greener kind of a thing?

[A]

Oh yeah. Grass is always greener.

[B]

That I feel. I'll feel like that. Everyone. Okay. Were doing a video shoot the other day, right. You know, you were part of this video shoot downtown. Y. Y. I'm driving home from the video shoot. And remember Casey Ryan? Spider monkey?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So he's a cop now, by the way.

[A]

Oh, is he really?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, that's cool. So you don't want to get rolled up. Actually, you do want to get rolled up by him. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Very capable. Yeah, physically. And very nice guy, you know, in my experience. So anyway, I'm driving home, I see a bunch of cops handling business. Casey Ryan's there. No, I see him. Right. First time I seen him in uniform. So I'm like, okay, cool. You know, obviously, I don't, like, bother or nothing, but I seen them, and they're just. You know, that. Just that look, that whole scene, you know, it's like, brother, they're handling business. I'm coming from a silly video shoot. Look, it was a great video shoot. I get it. But when you kind of compare in the moment, you start to see, like, oh, my God, they. That job, what Casey Ryan and all his freaking colleagues are doing is way more meaningful than my video shoot that I just did. You know, it's like you feel that in the moment. So it's like. That's an example of, like, in the moment, the grass is always greener. Like, they're doing something way more cool, way better. They're solving problems and crimes and stuff. And I'm over here pressing freaking record on a thing. You know, it's like, different, but at the same time, it's like you kind of got to look at the big picture a lot of the time, you know? And I think. I think that this guy might be doing that only because he says it's intrinsically meaningful, and then he's looking at the badassness of something else, you know, and whatever.

[A]

Yeah. But that is kind of a bummer if you don't ever get to experience that other thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If that.

[B]

I could see that.

[A]

That could be. That could end up being a bummer. I have when my son was, like, little. And when I say little, I mean between the ages of, like, 6 and 18. Sure. If there was something going on in the hood in our neighborhood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like ambulances, fire trucks, whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, he was getting on his bike to go check it out, and I was going with him, Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And guess what? He's gone. Like, he's. You know, he doesn't live at home anymore. Fire trucks, ambulances have it I'm on my bike. Go to. Check it out. I'm a grown man. Yeah, I'm 53 years old. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground dot com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [e-mail] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.