Jocko Underground: What To Do if a Heavy Duty Ex-Con is in Your Jiu Jitsu Class.

Summary

Jocko Underground Podcast #188

Episode Title: What To Do If a Heavy Duty Ex-Con is in Your Jiu Jitsu Class
Date: November 3, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink
Guest/Co-host: Echo Charles

Episode Overview

This episode explores a challenging dilemma sent in by a listener: What should you do if a notorious ex-convict, known for a violent crime, starts training at your Jiu Jitsu academy? Jocko Willink and Echo Charles dissect the scenario through the lenses of forgiveness, second chances, moral responsibility, and personal comfort. The conversation evolves from philosophical questions about redemption to practical advice for maintaining your own peace and values.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Listener’s Scenario (00:35 – 02:26)

• Summary of the Question:
  A listener, who trains at a Gracie University Jiu Jitsu school and works in law enforcement, discovers a new student is a convicted killer featured in a Netflix documentary. The ex-convict, released from prison early and attempting to turn his life around, is being filmed for his rehabilitation journey. The listener is uncomfortable with the idea of training alongside this individual, though they highly value their current school. They ask Jocko and Echo for advice.

2. Forgiveness and Second Chances (02:26 – 04:10)

• Jocko’s Take:
  • Raises core questions: "Do we believe in forgiveness? Do we believe in second chances?" (02:30)
  • Jocko admits there are things that he, personally, may never be able to forgive:
    • "Are there some things that cannot be forgiven? I kind of think there are. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough, but I know there's certain things that could happen in my world that there would be no forgiveness. There would only be vengeance." (02:39)
  • Discusses the real possibility for certain people to change (rehabilitate) from their past behaviors, e.g. drugs, theft, even violent crimes—but draws a line at sexual predators, whom he views as “a little different” due to their compulsive nature.

3. Practical Considerations: Informing the Academy vs. Avoiding Drama (04:10 – 06:01)

• Should You Tell the Instructors?
  • Jocko contemplates whether the school knows the full extent of the new student’s background, considering that background checks often only screen for sex offenders (04:10).
  • "Are you in an environment where you could tell them what the background is if the instructor doesn't know...without just causing a bunch of drama and problems?" (04:14)
• Potential Outcomes:
  • Reporting could cause drama, backlash, or awkwardness, or it could lead to the school removing the ex-con if they consider it unacceptable.
  • Jocko emphasizes judging the potential fallout and your rapport with the instructors before acting.

4. The Limits of Jiu Jitsu as Moral Cleansing (06:01 – 07:55)

• Jocko cautions against assuming Jiu Jitsu inherently imbues high moral character:
  • "Jiu Jitsu does not turn you into a highly moral and ethical person. There's Jiu Jitsu instructors that have murdered people. There's Jiu Jitsu instructors, black belts that have raped women and taken advantage of kids." (06:23)
• Instructors’ values and integrity are individual, not guaranteed by the art.

5. Navigating Personal Comfort and Making a Decision (07:55 – 09:46)

• Choosing Your Path:

  • Jocko summarizes the main options:
    • Inform the school and risk drama.
    • Stay, keep an eye on the ex-con, and judge over time.
    • Leave, and find a new academy with less drama.
  • He leans toward the simplest, least dramatic route:
    "If you're going to leave, that's pretty straightforward. Go try these other schools. That seems like...the simplest and least drama." (08:29)
  • Jocko reminds the listener:
    "You got to do what you think is right in this situation." (09:18)

• Reassurance about Loyalty:

  • The Gracie system is great, but many schools and instructors have excellent programs.
  • "There are incredible Jiu Jitsu places all over the place, and you'll be fine." (09:33)

6. Echo's Perspective: Judging True Change (09:46 – 11:27)

• Echo urges not to cast immediate judgment:

  • "I would have just start casting judgment right away because, you know, with all overt indications...he's kind of on the right path. He did a documentary exposing everything he did." (09:54)
  • Suggests observing the ex-con’s behavior over time before reacting.
  • Notes value in sharing stories of recovery to help others avoid similar mistakes.
  • If the individual’s behavior turns toxic, then leaving or taking other actions is appropriate.

• Iterative Decision-Making:

  • "So I think just give it time, and then you can kind of assess as you go on. Yeah. One might call it iterative decision making." (11:21)

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Notable Quotes

• Jocko Willink:

  • "Are there some things that cannot be forgiven? I kind of think there are." (02:39)
  • "Jiu Jitsu does not turn you into a highly moral and ethical person." (06:23)
  • "You got to do what you think is right in this situation." (09:18)

• Echo Charles:

  • "With all overt indications in play, I feel like he's kind of on the right path... If it's genuine... that's a good thing to be doing, I think." (09:54)
  • "If he's doing that... and you kind of jam it up for yourself... and you didn't have to then, I think that would be a bad move." (11:10)
  • "One might call it iterative decision making." (11:21)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:35 – Listener's scenario introduced
• 02:26 – Philosophical discussion: forgiveness and second chances
• 04:10 – Practical aspects of reporting and drama
• 06:23 – Dangers of assuming Jiu Jitsu confers morality
• 08:29 – Arguments for leaving quietly
• 09:46 – Echo's advice: withhold judgment, observe, iterative decisions
• 11:21 – Concept of "iterative decision making"

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Actionable Takeaways

• Weigh your personal comfort heavily: It's okay to leave a place that makes you uncomfortable.
• Understand the limits of martial arts communities: Training does not guarantee moral purity.
• Consider the value of second chances, but be realistic: People can change, but trust your observations.
• Iterative decision-making: Give it time, assess, and adjust as needed.

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Tone and Language

Throughout the discussion, Jocko and Echo maintain a direct, thoughtful, and pragmatic tone. Jocko expresses empathy and realism about human nature, while Echo encourages withholding snap judgments and fostering a process of ongoing evaluation.

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For listeners facing similar dilemmas, this episode provides a nuanced roadmap: respect your values, recognize the complexity of redemption, and don’t be afraid to remove yourself from toxic or uncomfortable environments—without feeling guilty.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 188, sitting here with Echo Charles. We got some questions from the troopers you and we are going to provide guidance, answers, courses of action. That's what we're doing.

[B]

Sometimes life is a maze. Sometimes can be tricky. Feel like a maze, it'll be like a maze, it'll quack like a maze. It's amazing. Sometimes, well, sometimes, you know, all you need is one guy to be like, hey, I know this where you are right now.

[A]

Take a left, go straight and then second door on the right.

[B]

Exactly. You're right. Then you're kind, then you're in the clear. You're ready. I'm saying take that next step.

[A]

That's what we're doing.

[B]

That's what we're doing. All right, first question. Hey, Jocko. Love the podcast and grateful for all the advice. Every week. I've been training at a certified Gracie University Jiu Jitsu school for almost a year now. I love our instructors, fellow students, and I'm excited to be a part of a system that Henry and Huron Gracie created. However, a new student now attends along with a friend who films him for a documentary on how he's improving his life after prison. Being curious, and also because I work in law enforcement, I looked into it further. Didn't have to look far because he has an episode on Netflix called I Am a Killer. He shot his then. So this is what the the episode is about. He shot his then girlfriend in the face, then after hearing police sirens, left their baby, went to his side pieces house side girlfriend's house, and according to her, had sex with that night. Fast forward to now. He was released from prison three years early from an involuntary manslaughter and felonious assault sentence, essentially because he wrote to and won over his daughter, an old friend who is now his wife that he married while still in prison, who's a Christian minister. Anyway, he's now attending my Gracie Combatives class, which I'm not cool with training with him at all. But again, I love the program. Grace University does student background checks in sex offender registration only, so he's in the clear to continue training Jiu Jitsu here. I'm of course leaning towards leaving and I'm currently signed up for a couple of trial classes at other Jiu Jitsu schools in the area. But I thought I'd ask you for advice, especially because this sucks leaving the Gracie's awesome Gracie University system. Thank you guys, appreciate any advice.

[A]

That's an interesting scenario to be put into it's. A little test where you're at, you know what I mean? In terms of do we believe in forgiveness? Do we believe in second chances? You know, I talk about forgiveness a lot. Are there some things that cannot be forgiven? I kind of think there are. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough, but I know there's certain things that could happen in my world that there would be no forgiveness. There would only be vengeance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, I guess we also have to ask, is there such a thing as true rehabilitation? Like, can a person truly be rehabilitated? Can you be rehabilitated from being a drug. Drug addict? I think you can. I've seen that before. Someone that used to be addicted to drugs and now they're not anymore. Someone that used to be a thief and now they're not anymore. Someone that used to be a criminal, now they're not anymore. Someone that used to be a murderer and now they're not anymore. These things have happened. Sexual predators. A little different, though, I think. Yeah, I think that's a little different. There's some wiring. There's a lot less. What's the term? Like, there's a lot less. Just survival instinct of like, oh, I, you know, I need to make money or I get addicted to this thing. But, you know, being a predator seems like you have a wire that's crossed somewhere.

[B]

Well, like a compulsing compulsion kind of urge thing. Yeah. That you can't, like, get a handle of. Kind of a.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're kind of asking ourselves these questions. Right. So then here's. Here's the thing. So let's. So those are some. Those are some kind of, like, philosophical questions we gotta ask. Right. Can people change? Do we forgive them or not? And again, like, this dude got out of jail after he. Manslaughter killed a girl. Like, that seems to be the kind of thing that's not very easily forgiven. So let's look at it from a more pragmatic thing. Okay. Does the jiu jitsu school know about this individual's background? Right. Like, and are you in an environment where you could tell them what the background is if the instructor doesn't know? Like, the instructor might not know. Oh, yeah. Guy used to be in prison. Now he's here, and they never figure out quite what he's in prison for. So, you know, are you in an environment where you could inform them without, you know, kind of just causing a bunch of drama and problems? Where now, oh, you tried. You ratted me out. I'm getting, like, you See what I'm saying? There's. There's some drama. That's not worth it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Can you just stay there and keep an eye on the guy? Like, you know, maybe you pass judgment after a year, you're like, oh, no, this guy's still a dirt bag. Or, you know what, man? This guy was a drug addict at the time, and he was crazy, and he went to prison and he cleaned himself up, and here's where. Where he's at now. And okay, I kind of. You know what I mean? Like, maybe you could. Maybe he could earn your forgiveness or maybe he could not. So there's that. Or do you just leave? Because it's a lot of drama, bro. I don't like drama. You like drama? Echo, Charles.

[B]

Like, you.

[A]

You and I don't like a lot of drama. We don't like drama. So, yeah, it's kind of one of those things do. So if there's going to be drama and you're, you know, maybe raising this information to the instructor now, the instructor's like, well, I'm kicking him out. And it's because Fred told me that you were. You know what I mean? But at the same time, the guy might be like, what are you talking about? This guy killed. This guy murdered someone, and he's in my school. I'm not teaching this guy. And might be like, yeah, thanks for telling me. Get him out of here. That could happen. So you got to judge. You got to figure that out. What your. What's your relationship with the instructor like? What's the instructor like? Instructors are not saints. Jiu Jitsu does not turn you into a highly moral and ethical person. There's Jiu Jitsu instructors that have murdered people. There's jiu Jitsu instructors, black belts that have raped women and taken advantage of kids. Like, do you. Being into Jiu Jitsu is no sort of moral cleansing. But then again, it could be a person that has great values and is like, oh, yeah, we're not going to train this person here. So I think those are some things that you got to think about and what they would cause to occur inside the academy. And if it's going to be a bunch of drama and chaos, then it's probably like, maybe it's better just to leave. And if you're going to leave, that's pretty straightforward. You know, go try these other schools and see what they like, and, you know, go start training there. That's pretty straightforward. That seems like a. The simplest. I was going to say easy, but I think it's actually because I don't want you to get the idea, like, oh, that's the easy way out. It is the easiest way out, but it also might be the simplest and least drama. And if you go through life absorbing the drama that's all around you and everyone that got drama, you jump into that drama as well. Like, life gets. Life gets nasty. Yeah, we don't like drama. So I would consider those things. I think what it really, really boils down to is you and your comfortable, your comfort level. You're either. If you're comfortable training there, if you are, like I said, you can talk to the owners and see what their take is. Maybe they'll kick them out of school, maybe they won't. If you don't think you can talk to the owners and you're just truly not comfortable staying there, then you go try other schools and leave. And it's as simple as that. You got to do what you think is right in this situation, you know, you might have a little bit of. It sounds like you have a little bit of loyalty with the Gracie University bjj, and that's cool, but, you know, I think it's fair to, you know, you want to be loyal to the people that are putting time and effort into you, but at the same time, they gotta have some loyalty as well. And if they know about this guy being a dirtbag and they know you're uncomfortable with it, and you know what? It's. He's paying just like you are. Everyone's allowed to be. You know what I'm saying? So you gotta. You gotta. You gotta use a little judgment here. Get a little. You gotta use your judgment with the facts that are on the ground and with the nuances of the situation on the ground. But for me, it seems like you're most concerned, and you literally say it sucks, because leaving the Gracie's awesome Gracie University system, the Gracies have a great teaching protocol. So does Eddie Bravo. So does Marcelo Garcia. So does John Donahuer. You can go right down the list. Like, there are incredible Jiu Jitsu places all over the place, and you'll be fine. If that's your major, hang up. I wouldn't worry about it. That's kind of where I'm at. What do you think, Echo? Charles.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with you. The. I do feel like the most important part is to. I would have just start casting judgment right away because, you know, with all overt indications, you know, in play, I feel like it's kind of like he's Kind of on the right path. Right. He did a documentary exposing everything he did, and then, you know, he's doing a thing. Life after prison. Basically how I got my life together, you know, that's like. That's a good thing to be doing, I think. So, you know, if it's genuine now, if he's, like, hanging around, and then over time, if he gives it a chance, be like, all right, maybe this guy's on the path. I get it. You know, like the path is. Or that his past is checkered, but he's on the right path. And then give it time, and then he's. Turns out to be. You know, he has a temper, and he's kind of a toxic person. You're like, you know, and, you know, then, yeah, okay, leave or. Or take other actions or whatever you want to take or whatever based on that. But I do think sometimes, and I'm being exposed to it more and more with the Internet, where it's like, yeah, people have a bad path, and then they're like, hey, I'm gonna kind of tell my story so other people can avoid certain pitfalls in life, you know, if they don't have much guidance. And then I'm gonna go on the right path and try to inspire people to be like, hey, you can get your life back together, rather than, you know, I'm just gonna stick with this bad kind of method of living, because that's a real thing, too. So if he's doing that and you're like, screw that guy, you know, and don't. You know, and you kind of jam it up for yourself going. You know, leaving a thing that you already like and all this stuff and you didn't have to then, I think that would be a bad move. So I think just give it time, and then you can kind of assess as you go on. Yeah. One might call it iterative decision making.

[A]

There you go. I like it. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But. But we. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors, and we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are. We're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko. Underground.com. it costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistance at jockounderground. Com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized Underground.