Jocko Underground Podcast #188

Episode Title: What To Do If a Heavy Duty Ex-Con is in Your Jiu Jitsu Class
Date: November 3, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink
Guest/Co-host: Echo Charles

Episode Overview

This episode explores a challenging dilemma sent in by a listener: What should you do if a notorious ex-convict, known for a violent crime, starts training at your Jiu Jitsu academy? Jocko Willink and Echo Charles dissect the scenario through the lenses of forgiveness, second chances, moral responsibility, and personal comfort. The conversation evolves from philosophical questions about redemption to practical advice for maintaining your own peace and values.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Listener’s Scenario (00:35 – 02:26)

• Summary of the Question:
  A listener, who trains at a Gracie University Jiu Jitsu school and works in law enforcement, discovers a new student is a convicted killer featured in a Netflix documentary. The ex-convict, released from prison early and attempting to turn his life around, is being filmed for his rehabilitation journey. The listener is uncomfortable with the idea of training alongside this individual, though they highly value their current school. They ask Jocko and Echo for advice.

2. Forgiveness and Second Chances (02:26 – 04:10)

• Jocko’s Take:
  • Raises core questions: "Do we believe in forgiveness? Do we believe in second chances?" (02:30)
  • Jocko admits there are things that he, personally, may never be able to forgive:
    • "Are there some things that cannot be forgiven? I kind of think there are. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough, but I know there's certain things that could happen in my world that there would be no forgiveness. There would only be vengeance." (02:39)
  • Discusses the real possibility for certain people to change (rehabilitate) from their past behaviors, e.g. drugs, theft, even violent crimes—but draws a line at sexual predators, whom he views as “a little different” due to their compulsive nature.

3. Practical Considerations: Informing the Academy vs. Avoiding Drama (04:10 – 06:01)

• Should You Tell the Instructors?
  • Jocko contemplates whether the school knows the full extent of the new student’s background, considering that background checks often only screen for sex offenders (04:10).
  • "Are you in an environment where you could tell them what the background is if the instructor doesn't know...without just causing a bunch of drama and problems?" (04:14)
• Potential Outcomes:
  • Reporting could cause drama, backlash, or awkwardness, or it could lead to the school removing the ex-con if they consider it unacceptable.
  • Jocko emphasizes judging the potential fallout and your rapport with the instructors before acting.

4. The Limits of Jiu Jitsu as Moral Cleansing (06:01 – 07:55)

• Jocko cautions against assuming Jiu Jitsu inherently imbues high moral character:
  • "Jiu Jitsu does not turn you into a highly moral and ethical person. There's Jiu Jitsu instructors that have murdered people. There's Jiu Jitsu instructors, black belts that have raped women and taken advantage of kids." (06:23)
• Instructors’ values and integrity are individual, not guaranteed by the art.

5. Navigating Personal Comfort and Making a Decision (07:55 – 09:46)

• Choosing Your Path:

  • Jocko summarizes the main options:
    • Inform the school and risk drama.
    • Stay, keep an eye on the ex-con, and judge over time.
    • Leave, and find a new academy with less drama.
  • He leans toward the simplest, least dramatic route:
    "If you're going to leave, that's pretty straightforward. Go try these other schools. That seems like...the simplest and least drama." (08:29)
  • Jocko reminds the listener:
    "You got to do what you think is right in this situation." (09:18)

• Reassurance about Loyalty:

  • The Gracie system is great, but many schools and instructors have excellent programs.
  • "There are incredible Jiu Jitsu places all over the place, and you'll be fine." (09:33)

6. Echo's Perspective: Judging True Change (09:46 – 11:27)

• Echo urges not to cast immediate judgment:

  • "I would have just start casting judgment right away because, you know, with all overt indications...he's kind of on the right path. He did a documentary exposing everything he did." (09:54)
  • Suggests observing the ex-con’s behavior over time before reacting.
  • Notes value in sharing stories of recovery to help others avoid similar mistakes.
  • If the individual’s behavior turns toxic, then leaving or taking other actions is appropriate.

• Iterative Decision-Making:

  • "So I think just give it time, and then you can kind of assess as you go on. Yeah. One might call it iterative decision making." (11:21)

Notable Quotes

• Jocko Willink:

  • "Are there some things that cannot be forgiven? I kind of think there are." (02:39)
  • "Jiu Jitsu does not turn you into a highly moral and ethical person." (06:23)
  • "You got to do what you think is right in this situation." (09:18)

• Echo Charles:

  • "With all overt indications in play, I feel like he's kind of on the right path... If it's genuine... that's a good thing to be doing, I think." (09:54)
  • "If he's doing that... and you kind of jam it up for yourself... and you didn't have to then, I think that would be a bad move." (11:10)
  • "One might call it iterative decision making." (11:21)

Key Timestamps

• 00:35 – Listener's scenario introduced
• 02:26 – Philosophical discussion: forgiveness and second chances
• 04:10 – Practical aspects of reporting and drama
• 06:23 – Dangers of assuming Jiu Jitsu confers morality
• 08:29 – Arguments for leaving quietly
• 09:46 – Echo's advice: withhold judgment, observe, iterative decisions
• 11:21 – Concept of "iterative decision making"

Actionable Takeaways

• Weigh your personal comfort heavily: It's okay to leave a place that makes you uncomfortable.
• Understand the limits of martial arts communities: Training does not guarantee moral purity.
• Consider the value of second chances, but be realistic: People can change, but trust your observations.
• Iterative decision-making: Give it time, assess, and adjust as needed.

Tone and Language

Throughout the discussion, Jocko and Echo maintain a direct, thoughtful, and pragmatic tone. Jocko expresses empathy and realism about human nature, while Echo encourages withholding snap judgments and fostering a process of ongoing evaluation.

For listeners facing similar dilemmas, this episode provides a nuanced roadmap: respect your values, recognize the complexity of redemption, and don’t be afraid to remove yourself from toxic or uncomfortable environments—without feeling guilty.