Jocko Podcast Underground Episode 178: When You Give, Should You Really Not Expect Anything In Return?

Date: August 18, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink
Guest: Kerry Helton
Theme: Discipline, giving, and expectations in relationships, leadership, business, and parenting

Episode Overview

In this episode, Jocko Willink sits down with Kerry Helton for her first appearance as the guest question-reader, discussing core issues of giving, expectations, parental responsibility, and instilling resilience in children. The main theme centers on whether true giving requires expecting nothing in return, particularly within families, and how these concepts translate into practical advice on leadership, parenting, and personal growth.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Clarifying Giving Without Expectation (00:33 – 07:00)

• Listener Question:
  The episode opens with a detailed listener question (read by Kerry) about Jocko’s previous statements regarding paying for children’s college in hopes they’ll care for you later. The listener is concerned that this feels transactional and conflicts with Jocko's philosophy of giving freely.

• Jocko’s Clarification:

  • Jocko stresses he would have to listen back to the original comment, but:
    • “No, I don’t mean that. And I’m glad you caught that. I definitely don’t mean that literally.” — Jocko, 02:10
  • He supports his children’s education (or whatever productive path they choose) not for a return, but to help them thrive.
  • College is not the only path; he favors the trades or military as equally strong options (“I think the trades probably are paramount right now…” 03:00).

• Giving as Leadership Principle:

  • Jocko draws on Echelon Front’s leadership code:
    • “The first law of combat leadership is cover and move, which means you support your team, but I don't support you…with the thing in the back of my mind that says, well, now that I supported you, you owe me support. I don't do that.” — Jocko, 04:13
  • Expectation taints the act of giving:
    • “The minute you expect something in return, it...there’s a little bit of a hint of badness in there.” — Jocko, 04:03

• Personal Goal for Independence:

  • Jocko aims for self-sufficiency so his kids are not burdened with his future care:
    • “The actual goal for me is that no one needs to take care of me when I’m older, like, got things handled.” — Jocko, 05:05
  • Good parenting leads to reciprocal care:
    • “If you raise good kids, they’re going to want to help you out and take care of you if you need it.” — Jocko, 05:30

Notable Quotes

• “When we help people and we give people things and we move them in a positive direction, we should do that without expecting anything in return.” — Jocko, 03:55
• “You are correct…tying tuition to future care seems to go against the idea of giving freely.” — Jocko (paraphrasing listener), 04:30
• “AI is not going to be able to rewire your house or fix the plumbing leak that you’ve got. AI is not going to do that for you.” — Jocko, 03:17

2. Parental Discipline and Mentally Tough Kids (06:33 – 08:07)

• Listener Scenario:
  A blue-collar father with a 5-year-old daughter worries that she is overly sensitive and struggles to cope with small disappointments. He seeks advice to instill mental toughness early, mentioning his focus on teaching good manners and resilience.

• Jocko’s Immediate Reaction:

  • Jocko acknowledges that the writer is on the right track and that emotional struggles at five years old are normal. The transcript cuts to a teaser for the full Underground podcast, but Jocko’s tone signals empathy and practical wisdom.

Notable Quotes

• “She’s five, so I know she is still very young, but I want to instill it in her young.” — Listener, 07:40

3. Memorable Exchanges & Tone

• Playful Banter About Reading Questions:
  • Jocko teases Kerry about her “hot seat” performance compared to Echo Charles and lightheartedly grades her reading ability, reinforcing the show's approachable tone:
    • “I’d give you like, maybe I’d give you a solid reading.” — Jocko, 02:03
    • “Echo Charles, over the years, his first ones...he was not good at reading aloud. I would venture to say he’s still not that great, but he definitely got better.” — Jocko, 01:50

Important Timestamps

• 00:33 – 06:33: In-depth discussion on giving without expecting return, parental roles, and self-sufficiency
• 06:33 – 08:07: Listener’s question about teaching toughness to young kids; Jocko’s introductory response

Episode Takeaways

• True giving, whether to family, teammates, or community, should be motivated by a desire to help and not by expectation of reciprocity.
• Good leadership and parenting mean supporting others’ growth without transactional thinking.
• With children, the focus should be on raising them to be good people who choose to care in return—not because they feel obliged, but out of genuine appreciation and connection.
• Self-sufficiency is a parental goal, relieving children of future burdens.
• Empathy, patience, and modeling resilience are key in nurturing mental toughness in young children—recognizing their developmental stage.

Summary in Jocko’s Spirit

“Do a good job as a parent and I think your kids will help you out and I think that’s a good thing.” (Jocko, 05:32)
The episode underscores that the best kind of giving—whether to your kids, your team, or your community—is done freely and without strings, trusting that true character and gratitude will, in the end, create a virtuous cycle of care and leadership.