Jocko Underground: When You Give, Should You Really Not Expect Anything In Return?

Summary

Jocko Podcast Underground Episode 178: When You Give, Should You Really Not Expect Anything In Return?

Date: August 18, 2025
Host: Jocko Willink
Guest: Kerry Helton
Theme: Discipline, giving, and expectations in relationships, leadership, business, and parenting

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jocko Willink sits down with Kerry Helton for her first appearance as the guest question-reader, discussing core issues of giving, expectations, parental responsibility, and instilling resilience in children. The main theme centers on whether true giving requires expecting nothing in return, particularly within families, and how these concepts translate into practical advice on leadership, parenting, and personal growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Clarifying Giving Without Expectation (00:33 – 07:00)

• Listener Question:
  The episode opens with a detailed listener question (read by Kerry) about Jocko’s previous statements regarding paying for children’s college in hopes they’ll care for you later. The listener is concerned that this feels transactional and conflicts with Jocko's philosophy of giving freely.

• Jocko’s Clarification:

  • Jocko stresses he would have to listen back to the original comment, but:
    • “No, I don’t mean that. And I’m glad you caught that. I definitely don’t mean that literally.” — Jocko, 02:10
  • He supports his children’s education (or whatever productive path they choose) not for a return, but to help them thrive.
  • College is not the only path; he favors the trades or military as equally strong options (“I think the trades probably are paramount right now…” 03:00).

• Giving as Leadership Principle:

  • Jocko draws on Echelon Front’s leadership code:
    • “The first law of combat leadership is cover and move, which means you support your team, but I don't support you…with the thing in the back of my mind that says, well, now that I supported you, you owe me support. I don't do that.” — Jocko, 04:13
  • Expectation taints the act of giving:
    • “The minute you expect something in return, it...there’s a little bit of a hint of badness in there.” — Jocko, 04:03

• Personal Goal for Independence:

  • Jocko aims for self-sufficiency so his kids are not burdened with his future care:
    • “The actual goal for me is that no one needs to take care of me when I’m older, like, got things handled.” — Jocko, 05:05
  • Good parenting leads to reciprocal care:
    • “If you raise good kids, they’re going to want to help you out and take care of you if you need it.” — Jocko, 05:30

Notable Quotes

• “When we help people and we give people things and we move them in a positive direction, we should do that without expecting anything in return.” — Jocko, 03:55
• “You are correct…tying tuition to future care seems to go against the idea of giving freely.” — Jocko (paraphrasing listener), 04:30
• “AI is not going to be able to rewire your house or fix the plumbing leak that you’ve got. AI is not going to do that for you.” — Jocko, 03:17

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2. Parental Discipline and Mentally Tough Kids (06:33 – 08:07)

• Listener Scenario:
  A blue-collar father with a 5-year-old daughter worries that she is overly sensitive and struggles to cope with small disappointments. He seeks advice to instill mental toughness early, mentioning his focus on teaching good manners and resilience.

• Jocko’s Immediate Reaction:

  • Jocko acknowledges that the writer is on the right track and that emotional struggles at five years old are normal. The transcript cuts to a teaser for the full Underground podcast, but Jocko’s tone signals empathy and practical wisdom.

Notable Quotes

• “She’s five, so I know she is still very young, but I want to instill it in her young.” — Listener, 07:40

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3. Memorable Exchanges & Tone

• Playful Banter About Reading Questions:
  • Jocko teases Kerry about her “hot seat” performance compared to Echo Charles and lightheartedly grades her reading ability, reinforcing the show's approachable tone:
    • “I’d give you like, maybe I’d give you a solid reading.” — Jocko, 02:03
    • “Echo Charles, over the years, his first ones...he was not good at reading aloud. I would venture to say he’s still not that great, but he definitely got better.” — Jocko, 01:50

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Important Timestamps

• 00:33 – 06:33: In-depth discussion on giving without expecting return, parental roles, and self-sufficiency
• 06:33 – 08:07: Listener’s question about teaching toughness to young kids; Jocko’s introductory response

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Episode Takeaways

• True giving, whether to family, teammates, or community, should be motivated by a desire to help and not by expectation of reciprocity.
• Good leadership and parenting mean supporting others’ growth without transactional thinking.
• With children, the focus should be on raising them to be good people who choose to care in return—not because they feel obliged, but out of genuine appreciation and connection.
• Self-sufficiency is a parental goal, relieving children of future burdens.
• Empathy, patience, and modeling resilience are key in nurturing mental toughness in young children—recognizing their developmental stage.

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Summary in Jocko’s Spirit

“Do a good job as a parent and I think your kids will help you out and I think that’s a good thing.” (Jocko, 05:32)
The episode underscores that the best kind of giving—whether to your kids, your team, or your community—is done freely and without strings, trusting that true character and gratitude will, in the end, create a virtuous cycle of care and leadership.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 178, sitting here with Kerry Helton. Kerry, first time in the hot seat.

[B]

On the ug, first time on the Underground. Happy to be here.

[A]

Do you think you're gonna be able to read these questions?

[B]

I'm gonna try.

[A]

You think you're gonna do better than Echo Charles?

[B]

Possibly.

[A]

All right, we'll see. We'll see how it goes. Let's get into these things. We got a bunch of questions from people trying to provide some guidance, some courses of actions that you can take, overcoming some of the challenges you're facing out there. So let's get into it.

[B]

First question. Good evening, Echo and Jocko on Underground episode 147. When you mentioned paying for your kids college so they'll take care of you when you're older, did you mean that literally? You've often said that you should help others without expecting anything in return. It's even in Warrior Kid 2. My parents paid for my education. I do feel I owe them, but they use that to guilt me. It would feel transactional. But if they use that to guilt me, it would feel transactional. Likewise, if I pay for my kids tuition, my future kids tuition, I'd want them to care for me because they want to, not because they feel obligated. So to me, paying tuition to. I'm sorry. So to me, tying tuition to future care seems to go against the idea of giving freely without expecting something back.

[A]

How do you think you did?

[B]

Terribly terrible.

[A]

You know, you. You had some. You had some things. I could see when you got to tying tuition, you thought that that was a mistake.

[B]

I did.

[A]

And you changed it.

[B]

I did.

[A]

Proactively so. But not a bad, I'll tell you, Echo Charles, over the years, his first ones, he would edit them heavily, but he was not good at reading aloud. I would venture to say he's still not that great, but. But he definitely got better. It's a. It's a little bit of a skill I think you can develop. But I'd give you like, maybe I'd give you a solid reading.

[B]

Well, yeah, I'd give you a C. Yeah.

[A]

No, reading aloud first. Like first time you see something. It's tricky.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's tricky. There's like, you can have like, I'm decent at it kind of naturally. I'm not very good at many things naturally. Like I'm pretty much like not good at stuff, but I'm lucky that I'm okay at that. And Echo is not. But he's developed it you know, time. So there we go. Let's get into this. So, good question. And to straight up, like, I would have to go back and listen to exactly what I said. But no, I don't mean that. And I'm glad you caught that. I definitely don't mean that literally. I think maybe what I, as I try and think about what I could have meant, what I might have meant, again, I'd have to go back and listen to it. I might have meant that if they go to college, hopefully that puts them in a path where they have a good career and if they so desired, they could take care of me if I needed it when I was older and my wife as well. Now, just a little side note here, parenthetically, at this juncture in time, if you've heard me talk over the past few years, I definitely don't think that college is necessarily the best way to set yourself up for success. There's a lot of other options right now. I think the trades probably are paramount right now because I don't care how good AI gets, it's not going to be able to rewire your house or fix the plumbing leak that you've got. AI is not going to do that for you. So going into the trades, I think is excellent. Going to the military is excellent. There's plenty of options out there that are not college. But regardless of the path that my kids chose, I would try and help them travel down that path. But case in point here, this is not so that they would owe me right in the future. Because you are correct that when we help people and we give people things and we move them in a positive direction, we should do that without expecting anything in return. And in fact, the minute you expect something in return, it kind of is. There's a little bit of a hint of badness in there. Right. And it's the same thing with COVID and move. You know, we teach at Echelon Front, the first law of combat leadership is cover move, which means you support your team, but I don't support you. Kerry, with the thing in the back of my mind that says, well, now that I supported you, you owe me support. I don't do that. That's not what we're doing here. So, yes, you are correct. The goal, the, the, another element here is the actual goal for me is that no one needs to take care of me when I'm older, like, got things handled and, you know, financially handled and physically I stay in good enough shape. But, you know, there's some things you can't control. But, but, but we are trying to set ourselves up, my wife and I, so that my kids won't have the burden, the financial burden of caring for us when we're older. So that's kind of the actual gold goal. And then on top of all this, I would say that the real goal is that if you raise good kids, they're going to want to help you out and take care of you if you need it. So do a good job as a parent and I think your kids will help you out and I think that's a good thing. So that's kind of where I'm at. You caught me. I think. I don't know exactly what I said. I'll have to go back and listen to it. But I did not mean to say that you should help your kids pay for college so they have to take care of you when you get older. But a good kid that you raise is going to look at you and say, oh yeah, you know, I really appreciate what you did for me and you need help now that you're, you know, the roles are reversed and they see that because a lot of times you forget, you know, you, it's easy to forget what your parents did for you, right. That they went through all kinds of crap for your dumb ass. Literally crap.

[B]

So, and this is care, right? If, if you care for them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, they're going to, they're going to care for you.

[A]

In most cases. In the vast majority of cases. Are there people that are freaking psychos? Yes, there are. Yep, there are. Are there people that are sociopaths? Yep, there are. But most people going to be cool.

[B]

So, next question. Hey Jocko. I have something I've been struggling with a lot lately. I'm 32, blue collar, grew up in a blue collar home. Spent my childhood playing different sports and hunting. Now I have a five year old daughter that is the sweetest thing ever. Love her to death. I am struggling big time with her completely losing her, Breaking down and crying over some of the smallest little issues. For instance, this Sunday we were getting ready for church. She just got a new dress and was excited to wear it for the first time. She got herself all dressed and while my wife was helping fix her hair, I walked into the bathroom and the baby, with the baby and she just started bawling because she wanted to show off for me and her look wasn't complete and I spoiled her surprise. She ran in the room, hiding by the bed, absolutely losing her shit. I tried to talk to her but it only made her emotions worse. My question for you is how to make your daughters mentally tough again. She's five, so I know she. She is still very young, but I want to instill in her. I want to instill it in her young. I've already started years ago teaching her to have good manners. Yes, sir. No, sir. No, thank you. I've tried several, several times to help her be tough, but it hasn't stuck yet. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you.

[A]

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