Jocko Podcast Underground 181: Would You Have What it Takes to be in SOF?

Host: Jocko Willink
Co-host: Echo Charles
Date: September 8, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink and co-host Echo Charles answer listener questions about navigating uncertain workplaces, career transitions, and, most prominently, what it takes to succeed in military special operations forces (SOF). The discussion focuses on maintaining discipline, clear-headedness, and readiness for change—whether in business, relationships, or the pursuit of elite military goals.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Handling Corporate Layoffs and Leadership Uncertainty

Listener Question [00:17]:
A caller works at a web publishing company facing layoffs and unclear leadership decisions. With business metrics seemingly healthy, they ask if they should move on, push leadership for answers, or keep their head down.

Jocko’s Response [00:53]:

• “The answer is yes, should do all three of those things.”
  Jocko recommends a balanced approach:
  • Work Hard & Perform Well: “You should work hard, perform well, try and help the company win. You should do that for sure.”
  • Push for Answers: “Ask some earnest questions bringing up the chain of command... ask if you get some more information. Don’t accuse them. Just say, ‘Hey, look, I want to be able to support the mission here. I’m wondering if we could find out why this budget got cut.’”
  • Prepare Your Exit: “You should also, yes. Prepare your resume and have an exit strategy... reach out to some of those relationships that you have in the industry... because these are not good signs that we're seeing.”
• Jocko reminds that uncertainty could resolve positively (e.g., new investors), but “we don’t know yet.”
• Summary Quote [01:57]:

  “Work hard, perform well, try and help the company win. Ask earnest questions and try and figure out what the hell is going on. And prepare my resume that if we need to leave and... have an exit strategy. That’s what I do.” — Jocko Willink

Echo’s Interjection [02:30]:

• References the film Office Space as a parallel to corporate shakeups, injecting humor (“what is it you’d say you do here?”).

2. What Does It Take to Succeed in Special Operations?

Listener Question [02:34]:
A 24-year-old engineer, discouraged by family from military service, describes a soul-draining job and a longstanding interest in Army Special Forces. Despite being athletic and active, he struggles to reach certain physical test (PT) benchmarks, especially push-ups and pull-ups.

Jocko’s Analysis [03:45]:

• Physical Standards Matter:
  • “Unless you can pass the PSD with authority, you won't be going a selection.”
  • “If you can't do the numbers, you can't go to selection. So yes, if you want to go to selection, you got to focus on the numbers.”
• Breakdown of Specific Requirements:
  • Push-ups: Minimum standard 49 in two minutes. Recommended is 80.
  • Sit-ups: Minimum standard 59 in two minutes. Recommended is 80+.
  • Pull-ups: Minimum standard 6. Recommended is 15 to 20.
  • “If you can only do seven pull ups, that’s a problem. You, you got to get your numbers up.”
• Holistic Standards:
  • “You can have some areas where you’re weaker, but you can’t have areas that are weak, period.”
  • “The better your numbers are, the better chance you have of making it through training.”
• Rucking and Running:
  • Good performance in these areas is valuable but not a stand-in for failing strength-based tests.
  • “Single biggest identifier of people that are going to make it through is like their run time and swim time.”
    • “I think it’s sub, sub nines, sub nine swim and sub nine run for... a mile and a half in the run and 500 yard swim.”
    • “If you can do eight pull ups, bro, you can have problems... How are you going to pass the obstacle course if you can’t do more than freaking 15 or 20 pull ups?”
• On Training Approach [05:03]:
  • “If you’re training hard on pull ups, you will get better at pull ups. You do a lot of pull ups, you’ll get to do more pull ups; you do a lot of push ups, you get to better at pushups.”
  • “I would start training a bunch of pull ups. A bunch of push ups, sit ups, rope climbs, lunges, squats, burpees.”

Memorable Quote [04:29]:

“You got to get your numbers up. You can have some areas where you’re weaker, but you can’t have areas that are weak, period.” — Jocko Willink

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Jocko on Diversifying Responses:
  • [00:53] “The answer is yes, should do all three of those things. You should keep your head down...you should also push for answers...you should also, yes, prepare your resume and have an exit strategy.”
• Jocko on Physical Standards:
  • [03:45] “If you can't do the numbers, you can't go to selection.”
  • [04:20] “Can you only do seven pull ups? That’s a problem.”
  • [04:57] “You gotta get good at this stuff.”
• Jocko on Training for Selection:
  • [05:22] “If you're training hard in pull ups, you will get better at pull ups.”
  • [05:42] “If you want to make it through this training, you got to do well in the PST.”
• Echo’s Humor [02:30]:
  • “You watch the movie Office Space?... Classic. It kind of seems like that’s what it, you know, like a scenario…”

Important Timestamps

• 00:17 — First listener question about layoffs and workplace uncertainty
• 00:53–02:30 — Jocko’s actionable, multi-pronged response
• 02:30–02:34 — Echo Charles references Office Space
• 02:34 — Listener question: What does it take to succeed in SOF if you’re struggling with PT numbers?
• 03:45–05:42 — Jocko details standards and advice for special operations selection

Tone and Style

Jocko delivers responses with his signature directness and clarity, stressing practical steps and disciplined mindset. Echo injects levity and keeps the flow relatable.

Summary Takeaways

• When facing uncertainty—whether in business or life—balance hard work, open communication with leadership, and readiness for change.
• For military special operations, exceeding the physical standards is critical; weaknesses are not tolerated in selection.
• Mental toughness, discipline in preparation, and honesty about your baseline are essential traits—both in and outside the military.

Memorable Closing Thought:

“You can have some areas where you’re weaker, but you can’t have areas that are weak, period.” — Jocko Willink [04:29]