Jocko Underground: Would You Have What it Takes to be in SOF?

Summary

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Jocko Podcast Underground 181: Would You Have What it Takes to be in SOF?

Host: Jocko Willink
Co-host: Echo Charles
Date: September 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink and co-host Echo Charles answer listener questions about navigating uncertain workplaces, career transitions, and, most prominently, what it takes to succeed in military special operations forces (SOF). The discussion focuses on maintaining discipline, clear-headedness, and readiness for change—whether in business, relationships, or the pursuit of elite military goals.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Handling Corporate Layoffs and Leadership Uncertainty

Listener Question [00:17]:
A caller works at a web publishing company facing layoffs and unclear leadership decisions. With business metrics seemingly healthy, they ask if they should move on, push leadership for answers, or keep their head down.

Jocko’s Response [00:53]:

• “The answer is yes, should do all three of those things.”
  Jocko recommends a balanced approach:
  • Work Hard & Perform Well: “You should work hard, perform well, try and help the company win. You should do that for sure.”
  • Push for Answers: “Ask some earnest questions bringing up the chain of command... ask if you get some more information. Don’t accuse them. Just say, ‘Hey, look, I want to be able to support the mission here. I’m wondering if we could find out why this budget got cut.’”
  • Prepare Your Exit: “You should also, yes. Prepare your resume and have an exit strategy... reach out to some of those relationships that you have in the industry... because these are not good signs that we're seeing.”
• Jocko reminds that uncertainty could resolve positively (e.g., new investors), but “we don’t know yet.”
• Summary Quote [01:57]:

  “Work hard, perform well, try and help the company win. Ask earnest questions and try and figure out what the hell is going on. And prepare my resume that if we need to leave and... have an exit strategy. That’s what I do.” — Jocko Willink

Echo’s Interjection [02:30]:

• References the film Office Space as a parallel to corporate shakeups, injecting humor (“what is it you’d say you do here?”).

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2. What Does It Take to Succeed in Special Operations?

Listener Question [02:34]:
A 24-year-old engineer, discouraged by family from military service, describes a soul-draining job and a longstanding interest in Army Special Forces. Despite being athletic and active, he struggles to reach certain physical test (PT) benchmarks, especially push-ups and pull-ups.

Jocko’s Analysis [03:45]:

• Physical Standards Matter:
  • “Unless you can pass the PSD with authority, you won't be going a selection.”
  • “If you can't do the numbers, you can't go to selection. So yes, if you want to go to selection, you got to focus on the numbers.”
• Breakdown of Specific Requirements:
  • Push-ups: Minimum standard 49 in two minutes. Recommended is 80.
  • Sit-ups: Minimum standard 59 in two minutes. Recommended is 80+.
  • Pull-ups: Minimum standard 6. Recommended is 15 to 20.
  • “If you can only do seven pull ups, that’s a problem. You, you got to get your numbers up.”
• Holistic Standards:
  • “You can have some areas where you’re weaker, but you can’t have areas that are weak, period.”
  • “The better your numbers are, the better chance you have of making it through training.”
• Rucking and Running:
  • Good performance in these areas is valuable but not a stand-in for failing strength-based tests.
  • “Single biggest identifier of people that are going to make it through is like their run time and swim time.”
    • “I think it’s sub, sub nines, sub nine swim and sub nine run for... a mile and a half in the run and 500 yard swim.”
    • “If you can do eight pull ups, bro, you can have problems... How are you going to pass the obstacle course if you can’t do more than freaking 15 or 20 pull ups?”
• On Training Approach [05:03]:
  • “If you’re training hard on pull ups, you will get better at pull ups. You do a lot of pull ups, you’ll get to do more pull ups; you do a lot of push ups, you get to better at pushups.”
  • “I would start training a bunch of pull ups. A bunch of push ups, sit ups, rope climbs, lunges, squats, burpees.”

Memorable Quote [04:29]:

“You got to get your numbers up. You can have some areas where you’re weaker, but you can’t have areas that are weak, period.” — Jocko Willink

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Jocko on Diversifying Responses:
  • [00:53] “The answer is yes, should do all three of those things. You should keep your head down...you should also push for answers...you should also, yes, prepare your resume and have an exit strategy.”
• Jocko on Physical Standards:
  • [03:45] “If you can't do the numbers, you can't go to selection.”
  • [04:20] “Can you only do seven pull ups? That’s a problem.”
  • [04:57] “You gotta get good at this stuff.”
• Jocko on Training for Selection:
  • [05:22] “If you're training hard in pull ups, you will get better at pull ups.”
  • [05:42] “If you want to make it through this training, you got to do well in the PST.”
• Echo’s Humor [02:30]:
  • “You watch the movie Office Space?... Classic. It kind of seems like that’s what it, you know, like a scenario…”

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Important Timestamps

• 00:17 — First listener question about layoffs and workplace uncertainty
• 00:53–02:30 — Jocko’s actionable, multi-pronged response
• 02:30–02:34 — Echo Charles references Office Space
• 02:34 — Listener question: What does it take to succeed in SOF if you’re struggling with PT numbers?
• 03:45–05:42 — Jocko details standards and advice for special operations selection

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Tone and Style

Jocko delivers responses with his signature directness and clarity, stressing practical steps and disciplined mindset. Echo injects levity and keeps the flow relatable.

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Summary Takeaways

• When facing uncertainty—whether in business or life—balance hard work, open communication with leadership, and readiness for change.
• For military special operations, exceeding the physical standards is critical; weaknesses are not tolerated in selection.
• Mental toughness, discipline in preparation, and honesty about your baseline are essential traits—both in and outside the military.

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Memorable Closing Thought:

“You can have some areas where you’re weaker, but you can’t have areas that are weak, period.” — Jocko Willink [04:29]

Transcript

[A]

This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 181, sitting here with Echo Charles. We've got a series of questions from you all which we will provide answers or courses of actions or recommendations. Let's get into it. Jocko.

[B]

I work for a web publishing company that just laid off 12% of the staff, including growing segments while protecting declining ones. Leadership only gave a vague email and slash freelance budgets. Despite strong ROI and won't address the questions. Our financial reports show revenue up, costs flat, and cash strong. Yet concerns are dismissed, leaving me worried about both my job and the company's future. Should I move on, push for answers, or just keep my head down? Thank you.

[A]

Should I move on, push for answers, or just keep my head down? The answer is yes, should do all three of those things. You should keep your head down. What does that mean? You should work hard, perform well, try and help the company win. You should do that for sure. At the same time, you should also push for answers, try and figure out what's happening. Ask some earnest questions bringing up the chain of command and the all hands. Maybe send an email to your, to your direct superior. Ask them what's happening. Ask if you get some more information. Ask some direct questions about like, hey, where are we at with this? And what, what's going on with that? And, and don't accuse them. Just say, hey, look, I want to be able to support the mission here. I'm wondering if we could find out why this budget got cut. And then while you're doing that, you should also, yes. Prepare your resume and have an exit strategy. You know, reach out to some of those relationships that you have in the industry. Talk to him, hey, how is everything going over there? You know, what positions do you guys have coming available? Hey, you know, you just, you know, just keep things on the ready because these are not good signs that we're seeing. But there is a chance that, you know, they're going to get a major investor that's going to come in and they want them to focus on this other thing. And so they're getting rid of some of the other stuff. Like there's a possibility that everything's cool, but we don't know yet. So I would do all three of those things. I would work hard, perform well, try and help the company win. I would ask earnest questions and try and figure out what the hell is going on. And I would prepare my resume that if we need to leave and I would form some, some relationships with some other companies so I'd have a, an exit Strategy. That's what I do.

[B]

You watch the movie Office Space?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Classic, right?

[A]

Classic.

[B]

It kind of seems like that's what it, you know, like a scenario, you know, where they come in and they start making these changes or whatever. Efficiency experts, right? So basically when this guy comes with that in or get finds himself in that interview where he's like, what is it you'd say you do here? That's when you know it right there. You know me, I don't know. All right, next question. I'm 24, always wanted to join the military, but family discouraged me, so I'm. So I studied engineering. The job is soul sucking. And I know army special forces would make sense. I'm active, outdoorsy. I love languages and history, but my PT stats lag despite constant training. I'm tall and lean like Israel Adesanya.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Okay, all right. Strong in rocking and grappling, but struggle with push ups, pull ups and high volume work. My question, what kinds of guys succeed in special operations? Do I need to drop everything and just train PST numbers or have you, have you seen guys struggle with stats but still make it?

[A]

Well, quite frankly, unless you can pass the PSD with authority, you won't be going a selection. So I don't know what you really mean by struggle with push ups, pull ups, I don't know what you mean by that. Like, can you, by struggle do you mean you can only do 20 pull ups and that's kind of a struggle? Or by struggle do you mean you can do three? By struggle do you mean you can do like it's hard for you to get a hundred push ups in two minutes? Or by struggle do you mean you can only do 22 push ups? You see what I'm saying? There's a big difference there. And if you can't do the numbers, you can't go to selection. So yes, if you want to go to selection, you got to focus on the numbers. You got to train them. And by the way, the better that you do with the numbers, the better chance you have it of making it through selection. So Special forces push ups, minimum standard 49 in two minutes. It's a minimum standard. Recommended is 80. So if you're having trouble getting 80, yeah, you know what, but you're still, but you're doing, you know, 72 or you're doing 68. So you're kind of, you're beating the minimum standard. Cool. Minimum standard for sit ups, 59 in two minutes. Recommended is 80 plus. The same thing, pull ups, minimum standard. Is six recommended is 15 to 20. So can you only do seven pull ups? If you're doing seven pumps, that's a problem. You, you got to get your numbers up. You can go down the list. It sounds like you're a good runner. Sounds like you can rock well. So that's cool. So to answer your question, what kinds of guys succeed in soft? They're going to be able to do a lot of pull ups, push ups, they're gonna be able to run rock. Like you got to be good at stuff. Can have major. You can have some areas where you're weaker, but you can't have areas that are weak period. So yes, you have to focus on it. Yes, you have to train it. And the better your numbers are, the better chance you have of making it through training. So it's the same thing with seagull training. Like they single biggest identifier of people that are going to make it through is like their run time and swim time. Like just doing. I think it's sub, sub nines, sub nine swim and sub nine run for what? What is it, a mile and a half in the run and 500 yard swim. If those things are sub nine, you got like a much better chance of making it through. And I think pull ups, they throw in there too. 20 to 25 pull ups is like solid. You have a much better chance of making it through. If you can do eight pull ups, bro, you can have problems. Freaking rope climbs, obstacle course. How are you going to pass the obstacle course if you can't do more than freaking 15 or 20 pull ups? Or if you can't do at least 50 to 20 pull ups, you ain't gonna pass it. So it's the same thing here. That's what you got to do. You got to get good at this stuff. And it's weird because he says despite. He says something about despite working on it, right? Yeah. Despite constant training. So you got to get your training in order because if you're training hard in pull ups, you will get better at pulse. You do a lot of pull ups, you'll get to do more pull ups, you do a lot of push ups, you get to better at pushups. So if I were you, if you want to make it through this training, you got to do well. In the pst, I would start training a bunch of pull ups. A bunch of push ups, sit ups, rope climbs, lunges, squats, burpees. That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors and we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that we are we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground.com It costs $8.18 a month and if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistancecunderground.com and we'll get you taken care of under until then we will see you mobilized Underground.